Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 23 - Evidence - June 26, 2012
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 26, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, to which was referred Bill C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012, and other measures, met this day at 8:06 a.m. to give clause-by-clause consideration to the bill.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Today, we are here to consider Bill C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures, introduced in the House of Commons on April 26, 2012.
Honourable senators, as you know, over the course of our subject matter study of Bill C-38 in advance of the bill coming to the Senate, we have heard from 114 witnesses. We have had 19 meetings and have sat for approximately 33 hours of public hearings. We are now at the stage where the committee will go through the bill in a clause-by-clause manner. Normally at this stage we would begin our study of the bill, but since we have done our subject matter study of the bill, it is not necessary for us to proceed to study the bill but rather to consider the bill on a clause-by-clause basis. We wanted to make sure, through the testimony of the 114 witnesses, that we had an opportunity to understand what was in the each one of the clauses of this bill, and I believe that we have spent the time to make sure that that is, in fact, the case.
Before we proceed with clause-by-clause consideration, I would remind honourable senators of a number of points that should go on the record. I know that senators from both sides are eager to ensure that, in this committee, we do our best possible work and that whenever the Senate takes up the bill it should be done in the best possible manner.
If, at any point, a senator is not clear where we are in the process, please ask for clarification. Please stop the process and ask for clarification. We must do our utmost to ensure that we, at all times, have the same understanding of where we are in the process.
As chair, I will do my best to ensure that senators wishing to speak have the opportunity to do so. For this, however, I will depend on your cooperation, and I ask all of you to think of other senators and to keep your remarks to the point and as brief as possible in making the point that you wish to make.
Finally, I wish to remind honourable senators that if there is any uncertainty as a result of a voice vote or a show of hands, the cleanest route is to request a roll call vote. Anyone can request that roll call vote after we have gone through the earlier process, and it will provide for clear results.
Madam Clerk, are there any substitutions of senators that we should be aware of this morning?
Jodi Turner, Clerk of the Committee: Senator Mockler is here for Senator Gerstein.
The Chair: That means, Senator Mockler, that you have the right to vote, and we welcome you here to participate.
Finally, are there any questions, honourable senators, with respect to any of the points that I have just made?
If not, with your permission, we will now proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-38. I have a script that I am supposed to be following, and I will attempt to do so. I find this gets somewhat tedious at times, so you will forgive me if it appears as such.
There are four parts to this bill. Each part is divided into divisions. The first and second parts are fairly short. Part 3, which you recall was the environmental part, has seven divisions. Part 4 has, I believe, 56 divisions. We can proceed in a number of different manners, and I will need unanimous consent to do so. If there is not unanimous consent, we will go through each of the 753 clauses.
The question, honourable senators, is — you can stop me at any time — is it agreed that the committee proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures, introduced in the House of Commons on April 26, 2012?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Agreed.
Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Agreed.
Is it agreed, with leave, that the clauses be grouped according to the parts of the bill as described in the Table of Provisions of Bill C-38?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
I propose that we deal with Parts 1, 2 and 3 as parts; and then we will talk about divisions, of which there are 56 in Part 4.
Shall Part 1, which contains clauses 2 to 18, carry?
Senator Ringuette, I will recognize you in a moment.
Honourable senators, if there is a clause within the group of clauses that I call out that you wish to speak to, please indicate so and I will recognize you.
Senator Ringuette, with respect to in Part 1, clauses 2 to 18, which clause do you wish to speak to?
Senator Ringuette: Did you say clauses 2 to 18? I would support clause 6 on the registered disability savings plan. I think that is proving to be good.
The Chair: Shall we do clauses 1 to 5 first and then deal with clause 6? Honourable senators, shall clauses 1 to 5 carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: I am sorry: Shall clauses 2 to 5 carry?
Senator Ringuette: Yes, on division.
The Chair: On division.
On to clause 6.
Senator Ringuette: I support this clause in particular.
Senator Callbeck: That is about the registered disability savings plan. I certainly support that because it amends the Income Tax Act so that certain family members can become a holder of a registered disability savings plan. It is a good step forward.
The Chair: Shall clause 6 carry, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Are there any comments on clauses 7 up to and including 18? Shall clauses 7 to 18, inclusive, carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: On division.
Part 1 is carried, with clauses 2 to 5 on division, clause 6 unanimously, and clauses 7 to 18 on division.
Part 2 contains measures relating to sales and excise taxes. Honourable senators, are there any comments on clauses 19 to 51?
Shall clauses 19 to 51, inclusive, carry?
Senator Callbeck: I want to note clause 22.
The Chair: Let us do 19 to 21. Shall clauses 19 to 21 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
An Hon. Senator: On division.
The Chair: On division.
On clause 22, Senator Callbeck.
Senator Callbeck: I support rebates for literacy organizations on tax paid on books. I support anything that will help the literacy cause.
Senator Ringuette: I will support that.
The Chair: Shall clause 22 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Clause 22 carried unanimously.
Does anybody wish to discuss clauses 23 to 51, inclusive?
Senator Callbeck: I do not know if it is clause 29 or 30. Clauses 31 to 44 are on medical devices. I support that because it is a small but effective means of alleviating medical costs for Canadians.
The Chair: You will have to give me the clause or group of clauses. We are now at clause 23 and onward.
Senator Callbeck: I would say that it goes from clauses 29 to 44.
The Chair: Shall clauses 23 to 28, inclusive, carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
An Hon. Senator: On division.
The Chair: On division.
Shall clauses 29 to 44, inclusive, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried unanimously.
Next, we have clauses 45 to 51. I will let you catch up, as we are going through a lot of clauses.
Senator Ringuette: Is that clause 45?
The Chair: We are at clauses 45 to 55, inclusive, of Part 2.
Senator Ringuette: I oppose clauses 45 and 46.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Clauses 45 and 46 do not deal with the same subject at all. They do not go together. We can talk about them separately.
[English]
The Chair: Shall clauses 45 to 51, inclusive, carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: On division.
To recap, in Part 2, clauses 19 to 21 carried on division; clause 22 carried unanimously; clauses 23 to 28 carried on division; clauses 29 to 44 carried unanimously; and clauses 45 to 51 carried on division. Part 2 has been dealt with.
We will move to Part 3. Let us deal with clause 52 by itself because it is quite long. Honourable senators, shall clause 52 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: No.
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Clause 52 is carried, on division.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Clauses 53 to 67 are on pages 94 to 98 of the bill. Shall clauses 53 to 67 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: No.
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Callbeck: On division.
The Chair: Clauses 53 to 67 are carried, on division.
Shall clauses 68 to 115 in Division 2 of Part 3 carry?
Senator Ringuette: I oppose.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Next we have Division 3 of Part 3 and clauses 116 to 121. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Senator Callbeck: What are those clauses again, please?
The Chair: Clauses 116 to 121. On division?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: With regard to Part 3, Division 4, on the Nuclear Safety and Control Act, shall clauses 122 to 131 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: On division?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Next we have Part 3, Division 5, on the Fisheries Act. Shall clauses 132 to 156 carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Shall those clauses carry, on division?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Division 6 of Part 3 is kind of different. The Canadian Environmental Protection Act 1999 disappears and another one is proposed.
Shall clause 157, at page 178, to clause 162, at page 181, carry? On division?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: On division, thank you.
Part 3, Division 7, Species at Risk Act, and this is clauses 163 to 169?
Senator Ringuette: Oppose.
The Chair: Carried, on division. Thank you. That concludes Part 3.
Now we have 56 divisions to go through in Part 4. This is one we spent a lot of our time on.
Part 4, Division 1 is Measures with Respect to the Auditor General of Canada, clause 170 to clause 204. Shall clauses 170 to 204 carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 2 is Life Annuity-like Products. Shall clauses 205 to 208 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Unanimous? No. Carried, on division.
Over to Division 3, PPP Canada Inc, which is clauses 209 to 213. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 4 is Territorial Borrowing Limits, clauses 214 to 217. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: Yes.
The Chair: Unanimous?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Division 5 of Part 4, Reporting Requirements is clause 218 to 222. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: No, absolutely not. The Treasury Board will not be reporting on the human resource aspect. That is a shameful situation, so no.
The Chair: Shall it carry on division?
Senator Callbeck: Which clause is that?
The Chair: Clauses 218 to 222.
Senator Ringuette: I certainly oppose.
The Chair: Carried, on division?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Clauses 223 to 281 is the Social Security Tribunal and Service Delivery. It would be that new tribunal that replaces four other tribunals.
Senator Ringuette: Oppose.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
I am now into Division 7 of Part 4, Consolidation of Privacy Codes. Shall clauses 282 to 303 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I will let everybody get there. It is page 227 to 235 of the bill.
Senator Callbeck: Did you say 287?
The Chair: Clauses 282 to 303.
Senator Callbeck: Clause 282 is changes to the French version of the existing act, is it not? I oppose clauses 283 to 303. I do not think the government made a case for that at all.
The Chair: You are prepared to agree to clause 282 unanimously, and clauses 283 to 303 on division?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: We are going to Division 8, starting at page 235 of your bill. It is clauses 304 to 314.
Senator Ringuette: Absolutely not.
The Chair: It is Social Insurance Number Cards. On division?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Moving right along, Division 9, clauses 315 to 325, pages 242 to 244, deals with amendments relating to the Parks Canada Agency Act.
Senator Ringuette: That is the entire thing about the wardens. On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division. Thank you.
I am now on Division 10, Financial Institutions, clauses 326 to 349 on pages 244 to 255. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: On division?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 11 is Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, clauses 350 to 367?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 12 is the Integrated Cross-border Law Enforcement Operations Act. This is the Shiprider legislation. It is an entire statute that goes from clauses 368 to 374, page 272 to 280. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division. Thank you.
Senator Callbeck: I think that that should be stand-alone legislation. I cannot support that. There is no reason to be rushing this through the house without proper study. Certainly, I am against it.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 13 is next. Division 13 is the Bretton Woods and Related Agreements Act, clause 375 and 376. Shall those two clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: I would like to remind my colleagues that when the minister appeared in front of us and was asked questions, he could not answer why the current legislation went from $6 billion to $11 billion. The bureaucrat who came in front of us to answer questions said in reality it was $24 billion. I find this very misleading and I oppose this.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 14 is next, dealing with clause 377, Canada Health Act. It is at page 281 of your bill. Shall clause 377 carry?
Senator Callbeck: I think here we have another example of downloading to the provinces. The provinces were not consulted before this bill was introduced. The RCMP said they are doing it now, but I just cannot support that.
Some Hon. Senators: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
The next one is Division 15, Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act, clauses 378 to clause 387.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 16 is the Currency Act. Would that be the penny? It is Clauses 388 to clause 389.
Senator Mockler, you should be keen on this as you are a surrogate for Senator Gerstein. He was our penny man.
Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Senator Ringuette: There is no guideline whatsoever for the retail sector and they will be in the crunch between the legislation and the consumer.
The Chair: Division 17 is Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, clauses 390 to 410.
Senator Ringuette: Absolutely not.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Next I have Division 18, Fisheries Act, clause 411 at page 290.
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
The next one is Division 19, Food and Drugs Act, clauses 412 to 419.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division
Division 20 deals with clauses 295 to 426, Government Employees Compensation Act. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 21 is the International Development Research Centre Act, clause 427 to 431.
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
The Chair: That is pages 299 and 300.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 22 is the Canada Labour Code; that is clause 432 to clause 440, inclusive.
Senator Ringuette: Is that the disability insurance?
The Chair: Page 300; does that help you?
Senator Ringuette: That is to protect the disability plan during bankruptcy. I want to support that.
Senator Callbeck: I support that, too.
The Chair: Would that be unanimous?
Senator Callbeck: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you. That is clauses 432 to 440.
I am down to Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act, which is Division 23, clauses 441 to 444.
Senator Ringuette: No.
Senator Callbeck: No.
The Chair: Carried, on strong division.
Senator Ringuette: Strong division.
The Chair: Thank you.
Division 24 is the Old Age Security Act; this is clauses 445 to 467.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I still do not have the report that says that our pension funds will be in a deficit position. The committee has received no evidence of that. It is difficult to support such a major division when we have never seen any details.
[English]
Senator Ringuette: We never had as a witness the Parliamentary Budget Officer or someone who could have shed some light into this matter; so absolutely not.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 25 is the Salaries Act, clauses 468 to 472.
Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: That is the appointments commissioner, the position that never was. I will support that.
The Chair: Senator Peterson, are you lost?
Senator Peterson: No, I am conferring with my colleague.
The Chair: We are at pages 322 and 323, clauses 468 to 472. Shall those clauses carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried unanimously.
Division 26 is clauses 473 to 475. It deals with the Seeds Act.
Senator Buth: Carried. It is agriculture.
Senator Ringuette: Absolutely not. This is the privatization of the current system that is working very well, thank you very much.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Clause 27 is the Statutory Instruments Act, clauses 476 to 478, inclusive.
Senator Ringuette: That is the reduction of the paperwork. I will support that, I guess.
The Chair: Is it unanimous?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Division 28 is clauses 479 and 480. It deals with the Investment Canada Act.
Senator Callbeck: I support that because it allows the minister to publicly disclose why he or she is blocking a foreign takeover.
Senator Ringuette: I agree.
The Chair: Carried unanimously.
Division 29 is clauses 481 and 482 under the Customs Act. That would be page 326 of the bill.
Senator Callbeck: Clauses 481 and 482?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Callbeck: I oppose that because I do not think the government has made a case for rushing this through Parliament.
The Chair: Carried, on division?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Next is Division 30, Pensions Benefits Standards Act, 1985, clause 483, which appears at page 327 of the bill. Shall clause 483 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Callbeck: Yes. That is just about regulations coming into force, right?
Senator L. Smith: Yes.
Senator Callbeck: Okay.
The Chair: Carried unanimously?
Senator Callbeck: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Division 31 is the Railway Safety Act, clauses 484 to 486 inclusive. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: No. This is downloading again.
The Chair: Carried, on division?
Senator Callbeck: Yes. There, again, there is no compelling reason why this section needs to be rushed through Parliament. There should be some discussion with the sectors involved.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 32 is the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act, clause 487 to 489, inclusive. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Callbeck: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 33 is the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development. This is Rights & Democracy disappearing, clauses 490 to 505.
Senator Ringuette: So much for democracy. I oppose this.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 34 is Health of Animals Act, clauses 506 to 515 inclusive.
Senator Buth: Agreed.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I do not think that animal control belongs in a budget.
The Chair: No?
[English]
Senator Ringuette: No. We did not even have a witness on this issue. The only people that were in front of us were the bureaucrats related to this.
The Chair: Carried, on division?
Senator Buth: Carried.
The Chair: Next is Division 35, clauses 516 to 524 inclusive, Canada School of Public Service Act.
Senator Buth: Agreed.
Senator Eaton: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: On division.
Division 36 is the Bank Act. This is clause 525. Shall that clause carry?
Senator Ringuette: Hold on just a second.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 37, clauses 526 to 530 inclusive, is the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Some Hon. Senators: No.
Senator Ringuette: This is the part where the correctional officers and probation officers will do interviews electronically.
The Chair: Yes. Personal interviews are no longer required.
Senator Ringuette: This is too important with regard to correctional services and probation. There is something to be said about personal contact, especially when you put so much emphasis as a government with regard to dealing with crime and you remove such an important process. No, I do not agree.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Senator Callbeck: I do not support this either because a brief that came from the Canadian Bar Association indicated that this was unconstitutional.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 38, clause 531. This is the Coasting Trade Act.
Senator Ringuette: We never got anyone from the private sector or any involved province in front of us to talk about this part of the bill. The only thing we know is that it is a question to try to have more vessels available. I do not think that we should —
Senator Buth: Carried.
Senator Finley: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: I do not feel easy with this one.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 39, clauses 532 to 577, Status of the Artist Act.
Senator Ringuette: Oh yes, that is definitely a budget item, do you not think?
The Chair: Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
Senator Callbeck: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 40, the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy Act. That is clauses 578 to 594, inclusive.
Senator Ringuette: That is shutting down the entire thing, yes?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Ringuette: No, I oppose it.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 41 is the Telecommunications Act. This is clauses 595 to 601, inclusive. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: No.
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: On division.
Division 42 is the Employment Equity Act. It is clause 602 at page 369. Shall clause 602 carry?
Senator Ringuette: Absolutely not.
Senator Callbeck: No.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: As I read this clause, I cannot understand the idea behind it. The people who will suffer will be those with disabilities, Aboriginals, women and minorities. The clause is completely arcane.
The Chair: Are you against it?
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I am completely against it.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
[English]
Senator Callbeck: I want to go on the record as being against that, too. I do not think there is any compelling reason to scrap this employment equity provision for economically disadvantaged groups, such as Aboriginal peoples. That is what this clause is doing, so I oppose it.
Senator Buth: I want to make a point that this removes the requirement under the Federal Contractors Program, which is a very small part of total contracts that are done. This requirement will be put into the contract rather than requiring a full employment equity plan, essentially. This is not removing it entirely; it shifts it over from legislation into the contract itself.
Senator Callbeck: My understanding is that it may go in the contract.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: It is at the goodwill of the minister. We already have 1,400 companies who have complied, so probably it is working well. Therefore, I do not see why we should not continue for the contracts that are $200,000 and 100 employees. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business asked for that, and they do not have this requirement for most of their companies; there are five to ten employees.
I do not think this is necessary. Ensuring that companies comply started with the law under the Mulroney government to have this employment equity. I feel that maybe you should not be supporting the removal of this. I do not think you have the authorization to do anything with the bill; you have to —
Senator Buth: Carried.
The Chair: Carried, on division. That is clause 602.
Clauses 603 to 619 concern the Employment Insurance Act. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: I would like to say that clause 604 brings the best 14 weeks into consideration; that has been the pilot project for a few years now. For the record, I want to say that I will be supporting clause 604.
The Chair: Let us do clause 603 first, then. Shall that carry?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: Clause 603 carries, on division.
Is clause 604 unanimous?
Senator Callbeck: Yes, I support clause 604.
Senator Ringuette: Yes.
The Chair: Carried.
Are there any comments for clauses 605 to 614?
Senator Ringuette: I oppose clause 605.
The Chair: Clause 605 to clause 619, sorry. Are you opposing all of these; are they all on division?
Senator Callbeck: No.
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: Clause 605 to what?
Senator Ringuette: There are also clauses 606 and 607. Clauses 606 and 607 are the deduction in the reimbursement to the provinces with regard to welfare and social assistance, et cetera. I think these are good measures. I am prepared to support clauses 606 and 607.
The Chair: Are we unanimous on that?
Senator Callbeck: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you. Carried unanimously.
I am now into clauses 608 to 619.
Senator Ringuette: I oppose clause 608.
Senator Callbeck: No.
The Chair: Is there anything in clauses 608 to 619 that you do not oppose?
Senator Callbeck: I oppose clause 608. When you get four premiers, representing three different political parties, expressing their concern loud and clear about this and the fact that they were not consulted, which is something I can hardly believe, there is no way I can support that measure.
The Chair: I am marking clauses 608 to 619 carried, on division.
Clauses 620 to 625, Customs Tariff. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: Hold on just a second.
The Chair: This is page 379.
Senator Ringuette: That is the increase in the border — in the travellers and the reduction in taxes. Absolutely not; I do not support those.
Senator Callbeck: On division.
The Chair: On division.
Division 45, clause 626 at page 380, the Canada Marine Act.
Senator Buth: Carried.
Senator Finley: Carried.
The Chair: I will let everyone find it.
Senator Ringuette: That is to increase the potential borrowing for port authorities.
Senator Buth: Consulting the Minister of Finance.
Senator Ringuette: Yes.
Senator Callbeck: I do not have any problems with that.
The Chair: Shall that clause carry unanimously?
Senator Ringuette: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Division 46, First Nations Land Management Act, clauses 627 to clause 652, inclusive. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: I remember the witnesses who came in front of us, some of whom were dealing with this framework agreement. I can only say that this will aggravate an already-aggravated situation. It is just creating a subsection of disagreement.
Senator Buth: No, they were very positive about this one, though; all of them.
The Chair: Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: On division?
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Next is Division 47, Canada Travelling Exhibitions Indemnification Act. It is clause 653.
Senator Ringuette: That is a good one.
Senator Callbeck: I support it.
The Chair: It is unanimous. Thank you.
Division 48, Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, clauses 654 to 655. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 49, First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act. It is clauses 656 to 681, inclusive.
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Division 50, Canadian Forces Members and Veterans Re-establishment and Compensation Act, clauses 682 to 684 inclusive, shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: Yes.
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: On division? Can I vote on this one?
On division. I am dividing on this.
Senator Ringuette: You are?
The Chair: Yes. Thank you for allowing me to vote on that.
Senator Callbeck: Is that clauses 682 to 684?
The Chair: Correct.
Senator Callbeck: I support that.
The Chair: Division 51, repeal of the Department of Social Development Act, clauses 685 and 696.
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: Opposed.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Not only am I aware of the council, I sat on it a very long time ago. It is the organization that reports on the situations of Canadians who are in difficulty, I would even say poor. The work they do does not put Canada in a good light at all. By agreeing to this repeal, we are making sure that we will no longer have any clear picture of poverty in Canada. I am completely opposed to it.
The Chair: On division.
[English]
Division 52, Wage Earner Protection Program, clauses 697 to 698, shall those clauses carry?
Senator Callbeck: There is a lot of inconsistency between the French and English versions. Is that right?
The Chair: Unanimous.
Part 4, Division 53, the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act disappears, clause 699.
Senator Ringuette: Absolutely awful, awful.
The Chair: Strongly on division?
Senator Eaton: Strongly carried.
The Chair: Okay.
Division 54, Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, clauses 700 to 710 inclusive, shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: No.
Senator Eaton: Strongly agree.
The Chair: On division? I will just make it in bigger letters.
Senator Eaton: A bigger "A.''
The Chair: Division 55, the creation of Shared Services Canada, clauses 711 and 712. Shall those clauses carry?
Senator Ringuette: We only know that they are regrouping the thing. We do not know how this will operate. My gut feeling is that this is an in-between process to privatize the entire IT service for the Government of Canada. There is the issue of privacy here down the road. On division.
Senator Callbeck: I agree with Senator Ringuette. Here we are rushing this through, and I do not think the government has made a compelling case for doing that, so I have to vote against it.
The Chair: The clauses will pass on division. Carried, then.
Division 56, Assisted Human Reproduction Act, clauses 713 to 753 inclusive. Shall those clauses carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: No.
Senator Callbeck: No.
Senator Ringuette: No. We did not really get any witnesses with regard to this. First, it has nothing to do with the budget. I think that this is an important research issue. I would have liked to have had more information on this. No.
Senator Buth: This is the issue where the court determined that certain provisions of this act were essentially unconstitutional, and it is actually under the provincial purview.
The Chair: I recall that.
Senator Buth: It is a bit difficult to go against the court.
The Chair: Of course, there is a question about whether this meets or goes further than the court case.
Senator Buth: Carried.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: We know that the whole thing does not work, but we have never been convinced that this will work. It is important subject matter. I think that should be looked at. I do not see what it has to do with job growth and long-term prosperity, as far as I am concerned. This has nothing to do with the budget, and it should be done in another committee where people will hear from witnesses and see what is being done in other countries in the world.
The Chair: I am hearing that clauses 713 to 753 shall carry on division.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: There is a schedule attached to this bill. Shall that schedule carry as it appears?
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
The Chair: There is more than one; there are three schedules.
Senator Callbeck: What page are they on?
The Chair: Page 425.
Senator Ringuette: Schedule 1 deals with boards. Did the bureaucrats explain these schedules to us? No; I do not recall that.
The Chair: Some honourable senators do not feel well enough informed to vote for these schedules.
Senator Ringuette: No. On division.
The Chair: On division.
Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Shall the title carry?
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Shall the bill carry —
Some Hon. Senators: Carried.
Senator Ringuette: On division.
The Chair: — without amendment? On division.
Honourable senators have made observations as we go along. Does any honourable senator wish to discuss written observations? I have received none from anyone.
Senator Ringuette: No. I think we will have enough time in the Senate to discuss this issue.
I would like to put on the record that there is abuse of power and there are political strategies with regard to a budget bill and policies. Some are borderline acceptable when one is dealing with a minority government, but when one is dealing with a majority government, it should have the courage to — if you truly believe in certain policies, then you should have the courage to put them in a due process frame and have not only Parliament deal with them as necessary but also to have public input.
That is my two cents' worth.
Senator Finley: If I may, on that subject, the senator is again being, I think, somewhat coquettish in her approach to this particular budget implementation bill. It is a bit like the dance of the seven veils. She only wants to remove what she wants you to see and carefully retain her modesty by uncovering nothing else.
These bills have been around, as we have heard in testimony, for hundreds of years. The most recent bill passed by the prior Liberal government had just as many or a substantial number of amendments — 28, I believe, with 23 parts to it. It was passed in rapid fashion.
I think it is improper and unreasonable to say that you can be wrong but only wrong under certain circumstances and right under other circumstances, depending on your point of view.
Just for the public record, I disagree with the statement on omnibus bills.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Maybe I should point out that in one of the last budgets under the minority government, the government, which was in place then and now, agreed to make changes with regard to censorship in terms of film production. There is nothing preventing senators from digging into a bill and making appropriate changes.
That does not change the fact that there are many bills that do not belong in this bill and should be studied more extensively. At the same time, I have been here for a number of years, and we have made proposals and changes over and over again. A senator can certainly fight the good fight for the people of Canada. As far as I am concerned, I think we are serving the people well if we underline the flaws in a bill and it is our role to correct them. I feel very comfortable with the stand we have taken.
As I say, many of the bills here do not belong in a budget bill.
Senator Callbeck: I agree. Many clauses in here have nothing at all to do with the budget. I believe there are 750 clauses, and we have dealt with 70 different federal acts. This bill is 429 pages long and includes everything from retirement plans, fisheries, the environment — I could go on. As I said, many of these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the budget. I think they should be standalone legislation where we call witnesses and do adequate study because they are major changes.
I am happy with the way we have dealt with this bill, most of it on division. We did support some parts, but I just wanted to put that on the record.
The Chair: Thank you.
Are there any other comments? We have already adopted the bill.
Is it agreed, honourable senator, that I report the bill without amendments to the Senate at the earliest opportunity?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I expect that will be this afternoon and then third reading will start tomorrow with Senator Buth leading off.
This brings to an end Bill C-38 at committee stage. Thank you all very much for the professional manner in which each of you, and as a team, acted. This was very much a challenge, and I think we have handled it in an exemplary fashion that would make the Senate proud.
Seeing no further hands raised, this meeting is now concluded.
(The committee adjourned.)