Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries and Oceans
Issue 4 - Evidence - December 6, 2011
OTTAWA, Tuesday, December 6, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 5:12 p.m. to study the management of the grey seal population off Canada's East Coast.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: It is my pleasure to welcome you to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. My name is Fabian Manning. I am a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I am chair of this committee.
Before I ask the witnesses to say a few words, I would like to invite them to introduce themselves to the committee, please.
Dion Dakins, Director, NuTan Furs Inc.: I am Dion Dakins, from NuTan Furs Incorporated, Trinity Bay, Newfoundland. I am also chairman of the Sealing Committee of the Fur Institute of Canada, and I sit on the board of the Fur Institute of Canada as well.
Rob Cahill, Executive Director, Fur Institute of Canada: I am Rob Cahill, executive director of the Fur Institute of Canada here in Ottawa.
Pierre-Yves Daoust, Professor of Anatomic Pathology and Wildlife Pathology, Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island: I am Pierre-Yves Daoust. I am a wildlife veterinarian at the Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island, and I am on the board of directors of the Fur Institute of Canada, representing the Canadian Association of Zoo and Wildlife Veterinarians.
The Chair: Thank you very much. The committee is continuing its study on the management of the grey seal population off Canada's East Coast. We are hearing from the witnesses today to add to the discussion we have been having for the past number of weeks and intend to have for the next number of months. We are hoping to present a report to the Senate by June of 2012, if possible. On behalf of members of the committee, I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today. I would now ask that the senators introduce themselves to you.
Senator MacDonald: I am Senator Michael MacDonald, from Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia.
Senator Hubley: Senator Elizabeth Hubley from Prince Edward Island.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: Senator Losier-Cool, from New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Cochrane: Senator Ethel Cochrane from the west coast of Newfoundland.
Senator Raine: I am Senator Nancy Raine from the West Coast of Canada.
[Translation]
Senator Poirier: My name is Rose-May Poirier, from New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Poy: I am Senator Vivienne Poy, from Toronto, Ontario.
Senator Patterson: Dennis Patterson, senator from Nunavut.
The Chair: As you can see, we have people from right across the country. We are just joined by?
Senator Watt: Senator Watt from Nunavik.
The Chair: Our study started a few weeks ago, and we have had some great presentations here. We look forward to having more over the next couple months and to doing some travelling to the East Coast of Canada as we do that.
We have asked the witnesses to make some opening remarks. Following the opening remarks, we will have questions and answers from senators, for an hour or an hour and 45 minutes. Whoever would like to go first, feel free to do so. We look forward to hearing from you.
Mr. Dakins: Thank you very much. As chair of our committee, I would like to thank everyone for this opportunity to present on an issue that is becoming certainly an ecological challenge for the eastern provinces of Canada, recognizing that there are also some of our committee members from B.C. who are actively pursuing and who continue to liaise with the government on initiatives to manage seal populations on the West Coast of Canada.
This issue is globally reaching a pinnacle, I believe, in terms of management of seal-fish interactions and how nations that have seal resources will manage going forward. Certainly, the challenge as it pertains to grey seals has come to a head. We follow closely on the East Coast of Canada the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council's, FRCC's, recommendation for the recent cull of grey seals. Our committee has been involved particularly with grey seals in discussing options for management for some years now, based on our membership out of Nova Scotia. Our company, the company I am employed by, NuTan Furs Incorporated, has been involved in attempts to develop a grey seal industry in Nova Scotia region, particularly on Hay Island, for nearly 10 years now.
You will notice that I did bring some hides with me. Those are juvenile or younger-age-class grey seals. We purchase them from Nova Scotia fishermen, dress them and market the products to try to figure out what the acceptability of the product to the market is. We also produce Terra Nova Omega 3 seal oil capsules, which we market internationally and here in Canada. The oil of the harp seal was also evaluated for suitability for this type of product, and it is suitable. I understand, though our company was not directly involved, that other companies also investigated the suitability of seal meat from both younger and older animals as a marketable product, and it shows that it can be marketed, in fact.
We look at this abundant resource of grey seals, and we see an opportunity. We do not see it necessarily as a pest, though we see it as a challenge. The discussion of seal-fish interactions is becoming extremely heated right now in Atlantic Canada because fishermen are experiencing tough economic times and decreasing quotas in nearly all species. Meanwhile, we have grey seals in the same area competing for the same resources.
We believe that, as Canadians, we should be adhering to the basic principles as they were established by the Malouf commission some years ago. Our federal government spent some time and effort and money to figure out the guiding principles for the harvesting of marine mammals. What they found at that time was that as long as we did not endanger the species, conservation was adhered to, best practices were employed from an animal welfare perspective, and the end use is pragmatic or practical use of the products, be it hides or meat or oil, we could achieve international endorsement for our products. Under the International Union for Conservation of Nature, IUCN, all nations prescribe to the wise and sustainable use of this world's natural resources.
I am available to answer any questions on our development initiatives. When both our executive director Rob Cahill and one of my colleagues at the Fur Institute present on their animal welfare and broader perspectives on fur use, particularly as it pertains to grey seals, I think we can certainly realize that we are not alone in this discussion.
If you look at such a piece of work as this, this was endorsed by the European Union only five years ago, and there are continuing initiatives within the European Union to commercialize the products of their own grey seal harvest. On the back of this cover and on some other promotional materials, you will see that the European parliament was the key contributor to the tune of 500,000 euros for a three-year program. All the products they secured were grey seals. In fact, from the Europeans, we can possibly have a little leg-up and a little bit of the work already pre-done for us so we are not starting at ground zero.
Further to that, it is difficult when we have to talk to our fishermen and understand why seal species come under such a microscope when we have already proven that what we do is sustainable and we are willing to do best practices. We would encourage this committee to explore every option. We would be willing participants as industry — we have sealer associations and animal welfare experts — and we would like to see this resource valued and find a way to go forward so we can define what the population should be for best ecosystem outcomes for fish and the best economic outcome for our local communities in Eastern Canada.
Thank you again for this opportunity. I pass it over to my colleagues.
Mr. Cahill: Good evening, everyone. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for your time to allow us to present to you some of the work that the Fur Institute of Canada undertakes on the sealing issue and on other issues that are related to the sustainable and wise use of Canada's fur resources.
We are a national non-governmental organization with broad stakeholder members in governments and industry players. Provincial and territorial wildlife agencies are members. Industry players are members. Hunter-harvester- trapper organizations are members. Veterinarian groups are members. Animal welfare conservation groups are members, to look at the issues around the use of animals. We were established in 1983 on the order of the Wildlife Ministers' Council of Canada to establish this round table of stakeholders to deal with the challenging issue of fur. In fact, 1983 was just after the first great seal war, when it was a challenging issue at the time and Canada felt it needed a body in which to address many issues around fur.
We had established a sealing committee under the Fur Institute of Canada in 2005. Our members who had an interest in the sealing issue felt that we needed to address issues coming from management, best practices and international trade.
We have on that sealing committee seal hunters, Inuit, non-Inuit groups, seal product processors and traders, Mr. Dakins, veterinarians, provincial and territorial governments and in regions of Canada east and north, and also in Norway as well.
The committee objectives are really to look at not only national issues here in Canada but also internationally: Where are seals and how are they managed, interpreted, utilized in other regions where they are found? We are not alone in Canada. Even the European Union's trade ban from 2009 specifically indicates that seals are hunted inside and outside of the EU. We know that. I will cover some of that a little bit later. We are not alone. We have attempted to reach out to some of these other sealing nations to compare work and best practices and ways in which to collaborate.
Our interests are to bring all stakeholders together that have an interest in this sealing issue and work towards a solution to the many problems it faces, issues of communication and strategy development. Our firm belief is the promotion of professionalism and best practices. The foundation of the Fur Institute of Canada is that we are the official testing agency for Canada for implementation of the Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards, which is a standard based on the best practices of trapping and managing wild fur-bearing animals. We are bringing that scientific and coordination background to this issue and bringing that perspective of professionalism, and we act as a central point for sealing issues in collaboration with government, industry and the science stakeholders.
We had presented a proposal to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in 2010 in a response to the feasibility studies that were released to the public in 2009 that refer to a grey seal incineration program or an immunocontraceptive program to manage the grey seals, neither of which any of our members felt were reasonable approaches forward for managing this abundant resource. We also believe that there is a third option that was not considered, and the third option, we felt, was a market-based management plan utilizing the people on the land who are currently hunters of seals and the processing companies, the industry, that are utilizing and prepared to utilize further the various products that a seal harvest could generate.
We look at the sustainability of a plan. An incineration program is perhaps irresponsible, but we look at it as a sustainable program; and also looking at the price tag of some $20 million, it is not a reasonable or efficient one.
We look at the logistics of how a management plan for grey seals could be undertaken, using best practices, focusing on animal welfare, responsible use, commercial value and full utilization of the resources that are taken. Clearly, communication elements are very important in this issue, which is a controversial and sensitive issue, but one that must be tackled, and we must also be consultative with all sectors.
The proposal partners that we had presented to undertake this feasibility study would be the science and academic community, government representatives from federal, provincial and territorial governments, sealing associations, the industry and the private sector. We felt this type of feasibility study could be delivered within a three-month time period.
We also have another proposal that has been with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on addressing the great challenge of advancing animal welfare in and around the harvest of seals. Probably we look at, again, what we faced in Europe. The focus was on animal welfare, yet the end game was in trade. We have felt, and with our experience in addressing welfare aspects of capturing wildlife, that we could bring that experience to the issue of sealing, and in collaboration with veterinarian, industry and government sectors, we prepared a plan that could be a long-term comprehensive plan that we believe that the Government of Canada could utilize for the development of, ideally, seal- hunting standards.
Again, we are not the only ones in the world to undertake this type of practice. We are not the only ones in the world that are being criticized for practices. We believe that more scientific evaluations need to be done. I will allow my colleague Mr. Daoust to discuss that in more detail.
We believe it is consistent with other Canadian initiatives around animal welfare, the establishment of the Canadian Council on Animal Care guidelines, the Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards, and many others in the use of agriculture animals. This is consistent.
It is addressing a clearly legitimate public concern to ensure that when we are undertaking this kind of work, we are doing it in the best possible way we can.
We also believe this type of work can be important for endorsing and securing the international markets for the products that would come out of such a harvest.
The outline of the plan is based around the applied animal welfare principles in general. We looked at expanding the database of animal welfare aspects of sealing, traditional hunting tools and practices that are used, morphological comparisons between seals and whether similar technologies can be related from one seal to another, and looking at alternative hunting tools. Can there be other hunting tools that can be more effective, more efficient and perhaps more acceptable? We have had the endorsement of all sectors to address these issues.
Looking at sealer professionalism, training is important — and again, communications.
One of the other issues that we have had discussions on around the sealing committee table, and what we are looking at with this grey seal issue in particular, is this word "cull.'' How is it defined? Often when we hear that term used, it means to reduce an animal population and dispose of it.
From the perspective of the Fur Institute of Canada and all of our members, we do not find that to be a reasonable or long-term way forward. We believe that the sustainable use principles are the way to go, consistent with the IUCN, the International Union for Conservation of Nature, and the Convention on Biological Diversity — both organizations in which Canada is a member. It is consistent with public opinion, as Mr. Dakins identified from the Malouf report, and we still believe. From our public opinion polling, we have found that when people understand more about conservation issues, welfare issues and socio-economic issues, there is more acceptance of the product and the practice.
We see that this pest control idea of reducing a population, or culling, is very much a European Union-based wildlife management approach. Upwards of one million muskrats are trapped in Western Europe every year and incinerated. In some countries, the Netherlands and Belgium in particular, it is illegal to utilize the products of a muskrat that is trapped. Between the two of them, it could be 500,000 muskrats a year.
We see that for the red fox in many countries in Europe, while they may not allow trapping because they do not think it is correct, they will allow hunting. However, in some countries, such as Switzerland, they will not allow the use of the pelt.
This is not about the relationship of humans and animals and the taking of an animal's life. What seems to be the issue that people are focusing on is the end use. It does not matter if you are going to kill the animal, that is okay; just do not use it. From our perspective, that is completely backwards. We should be benefiting from these resources, all of our people and communities.
Another example is the grey squirrel in the United Kingdom. The forestry department has a plan to trap one million a year over the next number of years to reduce the grey squirrel, which is an introduced species that is now out- competing the domestic red squirrel, which is becoming an endangered species. They even have an outline of how they believe any individual should be trapping and knocking these squirrels on the head to put them out. This is their plan. It is documented. This is another European country that feels it is immoral to use seal products.
We look at another example that is slightly different in Germany. There are wonderful statistics there of Germans hunting around 1.2 million deer a year, roe deer, and about 500,000 wild boar. The meat of those wild hunts goes into their food supply; it supplies restaurants. There is an economic value of about 40 million euros a year.
There are these great inconsistencies around the world, especially among our friendly neighbours in Europe. We believe that if this grey seal cull starts going down this road, it is the wrong model to be using. We believe we should be using all our resources and best practices to do it the correct way.
As I mentioned, other nations are hunting seals, such as Norway and Iceland. Scotland has recently revised their seal-hunting regulations to allow the hunting of seals by fishermen where the seals are impacting their fish stocks or fishing equipment.
In Sweden, Finland and Norway, the ministers in 2006 issued a joint statement saying they believe the grey seal population in the Baltic Sea, which at that time was estimated at 40,000 seals, was a problem and needed to be managed. They have management plans that allow the hunting of seals in those nations.
This cookbook was part of the program out of Finland, Sweden and Norway for the people to utilize the resources coming out of that. Unfortunately, the seal ban that is in place in Europe will no longer allow a restaurant to buy the meat unless it is on a non-profit basis, which cannot sustain the harvesting of a seal.
We believe that working with these international partners to develop an international comprehensive strategic plan, working with various groups — scientific groups and other nations — is the way to work toward a solution for this problem that we are facing here in Canada, and this committee in particular is faced with.
With that, I will close. Thank you for the opportunity to present, and I look forward to any questions and follow- up.
[Translation]
Mr. Daoust: Thank you for the invitation. I have already distributed a document containing many details. I have no intention of going over all of them, but I think it is important to do a quick overview to show you what kind of work still needs to be done in terms of animal welfare and a better understanding of the seal population's health.
It is very important for the federal and provincial governments to work with scientists and industry on gaining a better understanding of those populations in terms of their health and animal welfare.
I have been independently observing — and I want to stress the word "independently'' — seal hunts for ten years. I have had the opportunity to watch the hunting around the Magdalen Islands, Cape Breton and Newfoundland and Labrador. My interest as a veterinarian came from my great respect for animals, especially wild animals, and the importance of ensuring that our exploitation of natural resources was done in a respectful manner.
Soon after I began working in this area, I realized the extent of hunters' knowledge of their environment. I also realized that they were committed to using their regions' natural resources as a source of income. I have developed a great respect for those people, and that is where much of my satisfaction with this type of work comes from.
I focused on animal welfare. I became interested in seal hunting because I wanted to develop a personal opinion on what was really happening on the ice.
It is true that improvements needed to be made. I feel that we have done much to improve the way we hunt and use seals over the last ten years.
I am very worried that the proposal for culling grey seals will seriously affect all the work done over the last ten years. In my document, I voice my disagreement with the culling of that population because it leads to wastefulness. In addition, I do not know of any specific discussions on how the culling of those animals is supposed to take place. That worries me greatly.
I have some major misgivings in terms of that. I still doubt that it can be done in a way that is appropriate with respect to animal welfare. Before we can proceed with this method, some extensive studies need to be carried out. In my document, I mention the use of a silencer as an example. But how can a silencer be used in Canada?
If we opt for a drastic method of controlling our grey seal population, we need to use the right tools. That means investing sufficient effort into figuring out whether the use of a silencer could solve many of the problems when it comes to animal welfare. Once again, there are certain questions we need to ask ourselves.
I also mentioned immunocontraception. I know that many studies were carried out on that method at Dalhousie University in the early 1990s.
There were even attempts to administer the vaccine in the field, but it did not work as well as hoped. The project was abandoned. Could that project be revived? I think it could. It would require a lot of effort, work and research, with potentially uncertain results.
The third option I suggest — and I arrived at this option independently of the Fur Institute of Canada's opinion — is once again prioritizing the compensation needs of our coastal communities in the Maritimes and Newfoundland. Before we do that, we need to research the appropriate ways of killing those animals because the challenges young grey seals present are rather different from those adult seals do. My brief contains details about that.
In addition, if we want to use as much as possible of what comes from those seals, including subcutaneous fatty tissue — or fat — and meat, we will once again need to answer important questions in terms of public health. That means developing appropriate methods for carcass examination, which would very likely be done by the hunters themselves. Information workshops would be needed to explain to them the examination criteria for ensuring that carcasses are healthy. We also need to objectively consider the potential presence of infectious agents that could cause problems in human health, as we already do when it comes to domestic animals.
So, a number of steps are needed before we can use seals fully and kill them in the right way. That may take time, and I know that the fishing industry may not be patient enough. However, I feel it is very important to work with industry to ensure that this information comes together as quickly as possible, so that we can use our resources in a way that truly reflects our Canadian values.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you all for that interesting commentary. I look forward to questions.
We have now been joined by Senator Oliver from Nova Scotia, who is a permanent member of our committee.
Senator Hubley: Welcome, and thank you very much for your valuable presentation this evening.
The witnesses that we have heard to date, including the organizations that represent the hunters and the people from the sealing industry, without exception look on this as a resource. They are not in favour of a cull. They believe that this is a resource that has much potential. Their first choice would be to try to develop markets and explore other avenues. It has been impressed upon this committee that they do not want to see a resource of this magnitude wasted, that it must be managed.
Mr. Daoust, from your understanding of animal behaviour, what do you think the scientific community has contributed to the solution of this problem and how would you like to see it go forward from here?
Mr. Daoust: This is a relatively new proposition for people in my position. From an independent perspective, I am sorry to say that there has been no concerted study of appropriate methods of harvesting this group of animals. We are talking mainly about the adult group, which seems to have the major impact on our fisheries.
The Canadian Veterinary Medical Association has always been very supportive of my involvement in the sealing industry because it believes, as a national professional organization, that it is important that veterinarians, who are in the best position to assess issues of animal welfare, be involved in the industry and better understand it in order that we can find pragmatic ways to help the sealing community use those resources.
I am hoping that I succeeded in saying in my presentation that we should move forward. The work that I am proposing should have been started 10 years ago. It is now time to proceed with it in a serious manner.
Senator Hubley: We have been told that great deal of work has been done on behalf of sealing organizations. They have identified many possible uses of seal, including in the medical field, pelts, and omega-3s, all of which are beneficial. It has been suggested that trade irritants may be holding back the advancement of a commercial business in the sealing industry. Can you comment on that?
Mr. Dakins: I left with you a market opinion for the North of Smokey Fishermen's Association, which I wrote for them in 2008 to assist them in their attempts to develop a market at that time. The challenges for the sealing industry on the international stage from a marketing perspective have increased since then. At that time, one of the problems with developing markets for particular products was securing enough resource. Access to the resource will become a larger challenge for us in the future because the Canadian government is currently looking at establishing Sable Island, where the largest population resides, as the primary area where we could access enough resource to stimulate and sustain an industry. As marketers or proprietors of seal products, we do not want to see a huge influx of material and then non-stable supply for the long term. In order to encourage people to invest in the creation of a line and for customer demand, it is nice to have a stable supply.
There is additional work to be done in figuring out different age class developments. An interesting thing about this study and proposed actions to date is that there is no long-term plan. A recommendation has been made to reduce the population by 70,000 seals in a two-year entry. How do we maintain the population at a low level? Will it come back to the Canadian government to spend additional funds in the next five years to reduce the population again by 70,000, or could we develop a viable, long-term industry that maintains the population at a lower level as we want it prescribed for fish recovery?
Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentation. The study on the grey seal is touchy for many people around the world. We are getting tons of emails, 80 to 90 per cent of which, if not more, are coming from people in countries other than Canada.
In my notes from April 2010 I have indicated that the Fur Institute of Canada commissioned a public opinion poll, with the help of the governments of Newfoundland and Labrador, Nunavut, Quebec and Nova Scotia, on Canadian attitudes on seal hunting. Could you briefly highlight the results of this opinion survey?
Mr. Cahill: I am not sure that I actually have a copy of that one with me. Yes, I do.
We heard many things from many people in Europe and North America saying that Canadians are against this product and do not want to see it utilized. We felt that that might not have been representative of the Canadian opinion, so we commissioned an independent organization to do a study. We worked with them to establish questions that we felt were fair and that they felt were correct in terms of asking from an independent perspective. Of course, anyone who commissions a study can guide the questions in the way that they want, but we wanted to find out what people felt.
We think it was interesting that people felt that, generally, the utilization of seals was acceptable. They felt that if the seal population was high and was impacting fish, the hunting of those seals would be appropriate. They also felt that when we are going to be hunting those seals, we should use the best practices.
We asked, "Do you think that the seal populations should be managed to help maintain and restore the abundance of important fish stocks?'' Eighty-five per cent felt that it would be reasonable to undertake that activity.
What I thought was also very interesting was that the average Canadian had absolutely no concept of the relative size of the populations of seals in Canada. We have even seen, in documentation and in reports, that the harvesting of seals at the levels that they have been harvested at for years might jeopardize the future viability of the population of seals. When we asked Canadians what they believed the populations to be, only 6 per cent of people recognized that there were 6.9 million harp seals at that time. There is that disconnect between the knowledge of what the problem is, what the issues are and what, perhaps, the reality is.
We also found it interesting that 47 per cent of the respondents knew about fur products, while only 25 per cent knew about meat products. We commissioned this study just after it came out that the meat was served in Parliament, so the awareness was higher. Yet, only 14 per cent of the Canadian population knew that there are omega-3s in seal oils. We believe that if the Canadian population were more aware of many of the conservation, welfare and product issues and the implications with other food supplies, general acceptance of this undertaking would be higher.
Senator Poirier: Some of the different groups that have spoken to us have commented that they feel that the fact that people have the right to apply to observe the seal hunt and do not have the right to observe the moose or deer hunt or anything else could have played a role for the people voicing their concerns. Some felt it was not fair to compare it. They commented that it is not necessarily that people are so against it. It is that the ones who are against it are doing a good job of being loud about it and voicing their concerns. The results of the survey that I have read through and that you just commented on kind of reflect that. Would you like to comment on that?
Mr. Daoust: Could I comment on that?
Senator Poirier: Sure.
Mr. Daoust: We know that wildlife resources are used throughout the world. If you start looking at the little documentation that is available and compare it to the seal hunt, personally, as an independent observer, I have a lot of difficulty in seeing a difference, except that the seal hunt is concentrated within a short period of time and is in the open.
Millions of white-tailed deer are killed in North America every year. A certain proportion of them, probably around 10 per cent, do not die right away. Up to 40 million waterfowl are killed by sport hunters throughout the year. A good number of them will be crippled. Some of them may survive; others will die. In Scotland, every year 75,000 red deer are killed. Roughly 10 per cent of them are not killed with the first shot. Therefore, if you start looking at all those forms of exploitation of wildlife and you compare it to the little, I admit, that we know about the seal hunt, personally, I do not see any difference. The observation I have made, in as objective a manner as I could, is that roughly 5 per cent of the seals are not killed in as proper a manner as I would have liked to see, for a variety of reasons. It is not necessarily negligence because we are dealing with a hunt. I am not blaming the Scottish people for hunting red deer or the sport hunters in North America for harvesting waterfowl and white-tailed deer. It is part of the hunt. Therefore, I try to look at it as objectively as I can, and I do not see a difference between the seal hunt and other forms of exploitation of wildlife.
Mr. Dakins: May I add a comment from our committee? We are encouraging the Canadian government to increase the amount of veterinary, scientific, peer-reviewed research that pertains to seal hunting. Currently, we are lucky to have one veterinarian from the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association who is willing to donate his time, cost free, to the Canadian government and the industry to evaluate what would be the largest, most extensive scientific review of the seal hunt. The people that oppose the Canadian seal hunt do not have one scientific, peer-reviewed study. What we need is less observation and more interaction and scientific review about what we are doing. We are endowed with a wonderful resource. It is becoming abundantly clear that we are forced to manage that in concert with other resources that we have in our waters. We are actually encouraging the fishermen and the processors because we also require a veterinary inspection for market assurance and food safety purposes.
Mr. Cahill: I think many of us who, perhaps, are not hunters — and the majority of people who often see these pictures or videos would not be hunters or farmers or fishermen — have not had any experience with the taking of a life. The viewing of any taking of a life is a difficult thing to watch or to participate in. When people are being inundated with these types of images, it is a challenging thing to deal with. We know, in speaking to many people, whether here or in Europe, that they just really wanted to stop seeing these videos over and over again.
A lot of the groups that are taking these videos and showing them are PR-type firms, using this for their fundraising activities. They are given these opportunities to observe the hunts. Our organization, as Mr. Dakins indicated, is encouraging more observation. We do not think it should be by organizations that are going out for public relations opportunities. These should be professionals. They would be veterinarians and official observers. If there is a feeling that more observers should be there to observe this wild hunt, as compared to other wild hunts, then we would endorse more people coming out who are official and who could write official reports and make recommendations.
I was speaking to a woman representing Romania's environment department during the discussions in Europe. She said, "Do you have bears there?'' I said, "Yes, we have lots of bears.'' She said, "We have so many bears now. We are having to hunt many, many different bears, in all of these places, to keep them from getting into our towns and that sort of thing.'' This became the opening of our discussion.
I asked her, "Do you have to have observers with every hunter who goes out to hunt a bear?'' She said, "No, of course we could not do that.'' It led into her demanding, as the Europeans demanded, that we have more observers and saying that we are not managing and watching it closely enough, which I found quite bizarre.
Senator Poy: Thank you for your presentation. From what you have said about what European countries do with the grey seals, I find it is a real contradiction that they think they can cull their grey seals and we cannot hunt them as a resource.
Is it because of all the advertising with observation of the hunt and with the celebrities? Is that what it is doing to Canada?
Mr. Cahill: From my perspective in watching this issue — I was first exposed to the Fur Institute of Canada in 1991 as a board member — the groups that are opposed to the utilization of animals are the ones having impact, influence on policy, legislation, regulations in European countries and other places around the world as well. That is not leading to better practices for animals or a reduction of the taking; it is leading to a non-use of what is being taken, which is then at a taxpayer cost.
Senator Poy: Do they criticize European governments for culling seals or other animals, such as muskrat? Do these other governments get the same treatment as Canadians do?
Mr. Cahill: I am not aware of any public relations campaigns to address the culling activities in Europe.
Senator Poy: It is public relations that are making it necessary for Canadians to justify using seals as a resource. Is that what it is?
Mr. Dakins: As Mr. Cahill said regarding how we got to where we are, or public perceptions, particularly as they pertains to fur products, the seal being one, the stinger is the commercial return to someone for doing that. When you make money from it, then all of a sudden it is immoral to do. Making a derogation in the European regulation for product that has to be done because you have to manage the seals because they are impacting fish resources — that sums it up. It is okay if you do it, as long as you do not make a profit from it. If we look at IUCN guiding principles, the greatest examples of good conservation as it pertains to the utilization of abundant species or resources is actually when monetary value is associated with the resource. The highest level of respect will be given to the animal and conservation will be paramount when the animal has a monetary value.
Senator Poy: When you mention incineration, what does that mean? They just burn these animals? Is that what happens?
Mr. Dakins: Yes.
Senator Poy: In huge numbers, obviously?
Mr. Cahill: Hundreds of thousands.
Senator Poy: To them, it is fine if you kill the animals and burn them instead of making use of the animals. What we are trying to prove is that it is better to use them as a resource.
Mr. Dakins: The first feasibility study that was released under Access to Information was also incineration of grey seals that would be harvested on Sable Island. That created an immediate lash-out by Canadians because we believe in the use of the products. If we are going to have to kill the animal because of ecological reasons — if we want to encourage fish recovery — why should we take a perfectly good product and burn it?
As someone who sits in the industry, sees the challenges and the amount of propaganda over 40 years — which this industry has managed to withstand and has reshaped itself — I have to wonder why such a report was ever commissioned. Is it because we felt that type of approach would be acceptable to the world? We should worry less about what the rest of the world thinks of us and start reflecting on how we want to be reviewed by the rest of the world. We should start to take strong messages to educate not only our own people — who do not understand the problems or challenges we face with seals and fish in our waters — and start trying to message both internally externally, so people can comprehend and understand the magnitude of the issue.
Senator Poy: Dr. Daoust, can I ask you something? You mentioned vaccine. Can you elaborate on using vaccine to control?
Mr. Daoust: It is to prevent the females from conceiving a fetus. This approach of immunocontraception has been used in other resources, including wild horses. In some parts of the Western United States, they have a big problem with wild horses. They have tried to use that to control their population. They have also tried to use that with white- tailed deer in the New England area, and with various degrees of success is my understanding. Basically, you want to administer a vaccine to an adult female with extracts of ovaries from pigs that go through the slaughterhouse. By injecting it into the muscle mass of the female seal, it results in the production of antibodies that will interfere with the fertilization of the egg. The problem that was encountered when this vaccine was used in the field was that grey seals have a tough skin and a thick layer of fat. These bullets just did not make it through the thick layers. Therefore, the research was abandoned.
Senator Poy: You mentioned bullets. They do not have to catch the females; they just shoot them.
Mr. Daoust: That is correct. The alternative that was considered was to physically capture and restrain those animals. I can speak from personal experience that grey seals are cranky animals. They are big animals. They can be dangerous. It would require a large amount of physical work. I have a hard time conceiving how it would be possible.
Senator Patterson: I am delighted to hear the presentation. I am familiar with the work of the Fur Institute since my involvement with them in the Northwest Territories, when they were successful in educating the public and developing humane trapping methods.
Our committee will be advising the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. With great respect to the department, hearing about these feasibility studies that were undertaken at the expense of the department — which are directly against sustainability and utilization of a very valuable, nutritional, medicinal, good for useful and attractive clothing, and promoting our renewable resource economy — I think they will need some advice from us.
I think most members of the committee realize a cull would be a public relations disaster and against the things we should support in this committee: sustainability and developing our marine economy.
I think you said in 2010 you made a proposal to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and it was to take a sustainable approach. Could you outline in more detail what was in the proposal, when it was made, and what the response was? Would you be willing to share with us a copy of your proposal?
Mr. Cahill: I did speak to this somewhat in my opening remarks. When we did see these feasibility studies, the two of them that were commissioned and came out, as Mr. Dakins said, in the Access to Information, we were quite upset with that. The department that we were trying to work with on a range of issues, from professionalization and education and training of sealers to animal welfare, working with this broad range of stakeholders, had not considered what we considered to be this third option of utilizing the people that are already there and in place and can utilize these resources, harvesters that were being trained, veterinarians that were engaged in advancing best practices, conditions of licence towards regulations that were changing to address those best practices. There was no consideration or opportunity for us to present that.
We met with the department officials in July of 2010. We were then asked to present a feasibility study of our own about what we felt we would be interested in undertaking. In that feasibility study, and I will refer to the notes of my presentation, there needed to be a broad, long-term, sustainable plan for the management of this resource, as we have for virtually every other resource. There will be logistical issues around this, such as, as Mr. Dakins mentioned, access to the resource and the practices that are being used. Can the practices that we know be effectively used to manage that number of resources? What about the use of the product? Can it be used down the line? When the sealers would be taking these resources from the sea, could it filter into the systems that the processors have? What about available markets? Clearly the European market is not open, but there are other markets. Are there other markets willing to take those? There are communication elements around it, similar to what we expressed in our public opinion survey. We needed a consultative approach with all stakeholders, bringing in the science people, government, sealing associations and industry. That was the essence of what we presented to the department as our interest in undertaking a feasibility study, and would they contribute to us undertaking that study, interacting with the various stakeholders and presenting a report to the department of where we felt some of the challenges would be, where some of the opportunities are, what a program may cost, not unlike what was done with the CBCL study where it indicated $20 million to $30 million of taxpayer money for an incineration program. We believed that our plan would actually be market-driven. The result would be market-driven and sustainable and a net income rather than a net cost. We presented that concept.
We have not had much uptake, frankly. There were some movements in DFO. We have had some challenges with getting some of our proposals addressed. What we have had in the last little while, though, is a call from the department to re-explore this proposal. We had a meeting with Minister Ashfield and Minister Fast this morning where we also raised this, and we were told by Minister Ashfield that it is back up under a pile of papers and being considered. We are hopeful that that could be given some consideration as another way forward, a third option that still has not been, to our minds, legitimately considered.
Senator Patterson: I believe the Fur Institute of Canada was instrumental in working with the veterinarians to develop the three-step proposal for humane harvesting of seals. You have been working with provincial governments and sealers associations on workshops with sealers, I believe. Could you tell us about that and whether you think more could be done in this area to help persuade the European and international public that, indeed, we can and do harvest seals in a humane manner?
Mr. Cahill: I will defer on the three-step process. We were not involved in the development of that recommendation. That came out of a report and a group that Dr. Daoust is working on.
Subsequent to that, and with our collaborative effort, we did work with this report and these recommendations and with veterinarians to consult and present in workshop format these concepts, how they would be practised, when it was considered to be a condition of licence, so precondition of licence or regulation on the three-step process. The way we do things is we try to bring as many people together as possible to address the issues. We had workshops around Newfoundland and Labrador, the lower north shore of Quebec and the Magdalen Islands. Dr. Daoust and Mr. Dakins and I traveled around Newfoundland, and others were in other locations to present these issues to the sealers and work on these best practices. This was in 2008. I am pleased to see that the outcome of some of our work has become part of what is now becoming the training programs that are being implemented through the professional fish harvester associations at the provincial level. We are pleased that we were part of that. I defer to Mr. Daoust to talk more.
Mr. Daoust: I was involved directly in those information workshops, as we describe them. We do not want to train the sealers who have been on the ice for years; we want to inform them. It was an example of an excellent cooperation between the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, on the one hand, and our perspective from the sealing industry, on the other hand, in that we are not coming with regulations, such as, "Sealers, this is what you will have to do.'' We came in first with, "Sealers, this is the anatomic and physiological information on those animals that makes it practical or makes sense that you use those particular methods of killing the animal, the three-step process,'' and then DFO can come with its regulations and then it becomes much more acceptable on the part of the sealers.
I have had two grand tours of Newfoundland, going in different small communities and giving those workshops, in conjunction with Mr. Dakins and DFO, and I have been personally amazed at the response we had from the sealers. They were interested in what we had to offer. They listened to what we had to offer. I am not saying this automatically translated into better, more professional behaviour on their vessels or on the ice. I would argue there is still work to be done there. However, I think the progress we have made in this country in Eastern Canada to address animal welfare issues when it comes to the sealing industry is a well-kept secret. There is still work to be done.
I am honest in saying that this country could become a leader in animal welfare when it comes to harvesting our wildlife resources, including seals, not to the exclusion of others. I would like to think that this country could become a leader to the point where it could export its knowledge to other countries that harvest seals throughout the world.
Senator Patterson: We are privileged to have a vet here. There is a misconception in the animal welfare world, I believe, that seals are being skinned alive. Could you explain, as a vet, how it is that the three-step process ensures that the animal is dead before it is bled and otherwise dealt with, and why these animals sometimes have movement that gives the impression that they are not dead? Could you go over that, please?
Mr. Daoust: As a wildlife pathologist, I will be happy to use graphic words to describe the process. This three-step process is simple. It can be so easily incorporated into the normal killing practices of the sealers. It simply consists of using a regulation tool or weapon, which is the hakapik. By the way, I will defend the use of the hakapik any time for that group of animals that it is used for, that is, the harp seal beaters. It can be hakapik, the club, or a high-powered rifle. You want to stun the animal, ideally, to kill it right away. Since it is a hunt, it does not always work. It does not work 100 per cent of the time.
To my colleagues and myself, the most important step is what we call the skull palpation. It is very simple. For the sealer, it simply means, just with a gloved hand, feeling the top of the head. If the animal has been killed, if the top of the head is crushed — again, it is a graphic term — then the cerebral hemispheres, the brain underneath the skull, will be severely damaged. We know that the centre of pain perception sits right below the skull, basically. If you destroy the skull you destroy the brain, and there is no potential for pain perception.
When we are not using the hakapik or high-powered rifle, we are not talking about surgical tools here. However, some people will argue that in some cases the animal may not be quite dead because the part of the brain along the floor of the cranial cavity is still intact, et cetera, it may or may not regain consciousness. The third step is to bleed the animal as quickly as possible, because then you ensure there is no blood supply to the brain and the animal is truly dead.
We say recognizing the safety aspect for the sealer is paramount to us, otherwise our message may not go anywhere. We realize there may be delays because of the difficulty of ice conditions and so on. We ask you to do the second step as soon as possible after the first, and the third step as soon as possible after the second.
It is such a simple method, and yet I believe that it has and will go a long way to ensuring there is minimal suffering on the part of those animals.
This three-step process is not necessarily applicable to the adults. That is another issue to deal with, and that is what I suggested in my presentation. If, in the context of the management of the grey seal hunt, you want to target adult animals, you have to re-examine this aspect and look at the logistical issues of implementing something that is a three- step process or comparable to it.
Senator Patterson: That is valuable information. Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I will be very quick, since you have answered many of my questions, such as the one on contraceptive inoculation. I thought that would be an option we could look into, but you made me see that it would be rather difficult.
My question is for Mr. Cahill. It is about Canadians' opinion, that is, the many shortcomings in Canadians' knowledge of seal hunting. I was reading this week that smelt fishers in southeastern New Brunswick were overrun by grey seals. Whose responsibility is it to educate Canadians about seal hunting, and what can you suggest to the committee for improving people's understanding of the dangers grey seals pose?
[English]
Mr. Cahill: It is a challenge. When we try to engage people about awareness and understanding of an animal-use issue, as I mentioned earlier, so many people are not aware of the nuances and have no experience, no reference point of where to begin. Finding the time to communicate the many aspects of this, from population ecosystem complexities, predator-prey relationships, animal welfare issues, population, historic levels of populations of the animals, the socio- economics and the benefit and the available resources is not easy. All of these issues take time and the requirement of the person to give you more than three seconds. However, we know that for the average person, being impressed upon with a message, that is about all they have; especially with Facebook and Twitter right now, it is probably less than that.
We believe that all levels of governments can play a role, that industry needs to play a role and that the professional community needs to play a role. We try, in some way, to roll these issues up. However, again we are not a PR agency. We do not have a budget to run educational campaigns for the average citizen.
We do believe, however, that there are some good examples. We have seen in Newfoundland, certainly in places where people have a reasonable reference point, that there are school-type programs that are educating people on these issues.
Generally, I would say, especially when it comes to seals, that it is a coastal issue. It is not like beavers or squirrels, which most people in the country have experience with, and most people have lost trees to beavers and that sort of thing. It is a challenging point to get across this complex issue on a broad scale.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: As far as seal marketing goes, do you receive federal funding through certain programs? I am thinking of ACOA, for instance.
[English]
Mr. Dakins: In late 2009 to 2010 we did form a group between our company and two other competing companies to try to do some generic international marketing of seal products. We were supported, pleasantly, by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, DEC — which is the equivalent of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency in Quebec — Innovation Norway, Fisheries Norway, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador's fisheries department and the Province of Quebec through their fisheries department.
All departments, in the provincial, territorial and federal systems, realize that the commercialization of the seal products, certainly though challenged, is a better option to just seeing the industry dying and losing our capacity to be able to handle it. We have not done additional applications for further funding there because we feel that there is a broader, more important strategy that needs to be implemented. When you speak about education and whose responsibility it is, we feel that every Canadian has a responsibility on this issue either to educate or to be educated.
We have asked the federal government, as recently as today, to help formulate a strategy that would incorporate all partners — academia, industry, hunters and others — to come up with a coordinated strategy to handle this not only nationally but also internationally as well. The challenges are 40 years old now, and it is an issue that certainly will not go away. The challenges we will face in the future, if we are not commercializing the products, is how we will justify the required slaughter and loss of revenues from such a huge resource, as I mentioned in my opening comments, not to ignore the 10-million-strong harp seal population on the East Coast and the northeast coast of Labrador, but also the grey seals.
Senator Losier-Cool: This strategic plan could be a recommendation that this committee could put in its report?
Mr. Dakins: Most definitely. We would encourage that. We hope we do not have to wait for the Senate recommendation to get there, because this is something we have been trying to coordinate with provincial, territorial and federal governments for some time. We hope to have a quicker response.
Senator Oliver: Welcome to the three of you, and thank you for your excellent presentations. They were very helpful.
Perhaps the thing that jumped out at me more than all of the other things that you have said is to tell us here in Canada about the seal harvesting that is currently going on by countries in Europe. I first want to make sure my facts are correct. Did I hear you correctly when you said that in Norway, Iceland, Scotland, Sweden and Finland there is in fact now a seal harvest going on? Is that correct?
Mr. Cahill: There is the hunting of seals going on. In fact, an additional European country is Estonia. Months after the European Union ban went into effect, Estonia announced that it was undertaking a management of grey seals for population and ecosystem management measures.
Senator Oliver: I used the word "harvest'' and you used the word "hunt.'' Are they not harvesting? They are just hunting and killing them. Is that right?
Mr. Cahill: They are hunting and killing them in the northern countries. Norway, while it is not part of the European Union, has an opportunity to commercially utilize the hunt. The European countries can only use the product as country food.
Senator Oliver: Can they not export it?
Mr. Cahill: They cannot sell it commercially. For example, they cannot sell the meat to a restaurant, and they cannot commercially utilize the oils.
Senator Oliver: Do you have details of the manner in which they go about killing seals? What methods do they use? Are they meeting the tests and standards of animal welfare? Are their methods humane?
Mr. Cahill: Mr. Daoust was on a review panel in Europe that has studied hunting methods around the world. I defer to him on this question.
Mr. Daoust: In Norway, they have a variation of our three-step process. It is almost the same because they harvest those animals for commercial purposes. My understanding is that in many other countries, the hunt is mainly for sport. Therefore, the harvest is limited and single animals are targeted. The hunt is mainly with rifles. In many of those countries, the hunt is more in the context of a sport.
We must not forget Namibia on the West Coast of Africa. After Canada, Namibia has the largest harvest of seals for commercial purposes. I find it interesting in Namibia because, like we do with our harp seals, they harvest the young animals. Their target is the cape fur seal. They harvest the young animals and the adults. I was a member of the European Food Safety Authority in 2007 when we looked at various forms of seal hunting throughout the world. We had the opportunity to see some videos of a number of hunts, including one in Namibia. I was not impressed by the way the young animals were harvested; there was a lot of room for improvement. Interestingly, when they hunt the adults, they use silencers on their rifles because when they shoot one animal with a high-powered rifle, all the other animals go in the water, and it becomes a free-for-all, basically. It is then impossible to kill more animals without injuring them. Therefore, the hunters in Namibia are allowed to use silencers on their rifles when they hunt those animals. We can export our knowledge, and we can learn from other countries.
Senator Oliver: We knew about Namibia, but I was asking you about Europe because we are aware of what the European Parliament has done and said about our practices in Canada and how much of a burden that has been on our East Coast fishery. Is there research that you can point us to about whether the seals are eating some of their groundfish, such as cod, and so on? Could you make that research available to us?
Mr. Daoust: I will defer to Mr. Cahill.
Mr. Cahill: We will put you in touch with the organizations we have been in contact with in government departments.
Senator Oliver: Would that be in countries like Norway, Iceland, Scotland, Sweden and Estonia?
Mr. Cahill: Yes.
Senator Oliver: My final question is much like the one put to you by Senator Losier-Cool, but mine will be hypothetical.
If you had the opportunity to write the recommendations that this committee will give to the Government of Canada, what would be one of the first two recommendations that you would like to see come forward?
Mr. Cahill: I would like to see the grey seals considered a valuable resource, with a plan in place to utilize the resources with the best practices by the best-trained people and provide those resources on an economic-benefit basis to an industry that can utilize them.
Mr. Dakins: Consultation with the people who have been closely involved with the issue is necessary in order to formulate the correct plan on a go-forward basis.
Senator Oliver: Do you mean the fishermen?
Mr. Dakins: The fishermen, the processors and the animal welfare experts. I would suggest that we have a great deal of knowledge on harp seal and grey seal products. Certainly, we want it done to a high animal welfare standard so we can give market assurance. We want to see our coastal economies continue and we want to continue to operate our fishing plant to the benefit of those communities. I would encourage the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in order to encourage the best way forward, to invite animal welfare experts and industry representatives to the table to formulate an appropriate plan versus taking highly emotive positions and approaches to the management of a valuable resource.
Mr. Daoust: I agree with what Mr. Cahill and Mr. Dakins have said.
I would like to suggest to the federal and provincial governments that they have the courage to invest in our wildlife resources and in the sustainable use of our wildlife resources ultimately for the sustainability of those resources and for the benefit of our coastal communities, which really deserve it.
Senator Oliver: Is time of the essence? Do we have another two years to do more studies on this?
Mr. Dakins: As someone who sells the products and is dealing with the current market conditions, I think there is a level of urgency to ensure that the resource continues to be valued and not disrespected. There is huge pressure coming from our economies. I do not think that we are unprepared. We have done a lot of work over the last decade about the products. We need to encourage our federal department to qualify and quantity the fish-seal interactions. As we go forward with any type of population reduction or further harvesting, we need to evaluate the impacts on our fish stocks and to encourage other nations to come on board to find solutions because they are also faced with similar challenges.
In Alaska, for example, we see that the United States is faced with a huge challenge related to their fur seal resources and the impacts on their fish stocks. Until Canada steps forward as the leading nation, because we are the world's largest harvester of marine mammal resources, this global problem and global conflict between fish, seals and humans will only escalate.
Senator Raine: The problem with going last is that everyone else has asked all the questions.
The Chair: You are not last.
Senator Raine: Good. We have heard a lot of interesting things tonight. My first question is for Mr. Daoust. You said that research still needs to be done on the best harvesting method for various age groups of the grey seals. If it is properly funded, how long would it take to get that research done? Are we talking months or years? We are hearing some urgency. Every year that goes by, it is that much more out of balance.
Mr. Daoust: It would be risky for me to suggest a time frame. The challenge with the sealing industry is that you have only one chance every year to do this kind of work; and it does not last very long. You have to be at the right place at the right time. That is why it is important that we get going for this coming season.
Already we have made some progress with the young grey seals. I have been working on that with colleagues at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for about three years. We are not satisfied completely, but we are getting close. My response to Senator Hubley was that we do not have much knowledge on the adult grey seals. If there were an opportunity to begin to address this in the upcoming season, it would be useful. I do not dare say whether it would take one or two seasons to achieve, but the sooner we start, the more rapidly we will be able to provide an answer to the sealing and fishing communities.
Senator Raine: We heard last week from witnesses that there are silos happening between the various provinces and the federal government with regard to whether it is a fish or a mammal and how it is regulated. You cannot sell seal meat from Newfoundland into British Columbia. We do not even have a marketing system worked out for this wonderful protein in our own country, let alone for export.
Do you have any comment on that, or is that more or less out of your purview, which is more with regard to the Fur Institute of Canada?
Mr. Dakins: We sell meat products. In Newfoundland, because of the way it is classified within Newfoundland and Labrador, we can ship transborder and interprovincially. There are no restrictions on the sale of seal meat say to British Columbia or Ontario because we process it as a fish. In Quebec, it is identified as a meat product, so it comes under a separate category. I do not operate a facility in Quebec, but this is my understanding.
You are certainly right in that we need to ensure we have our i's dotted and our t's crossed within our own borders. However, I do not think the largest challenges are necessarily what we will do with the products once we have them. Our biggest challenges will come with access to the resource I mentioned earlier. If Sable Island is identified as a national park, what type of challenge will the industry face at that time? These are the things that we need to address immediately and head off before they become barriers in the future to an activity we know we have to conduct.
Senator Raine: It is interesting because I know they have done animal culls in national parks, but what you want to do is harvesting rather than culling. In our parks, we are against commercialization. Maybe that is something we need to wrap our heads around. You do not have to work too hard to convince us that sustainable use of this resource is the right thing to do, but if we have regulations that make it hard, then it must be frustrating.
Mr. Dakins: I live on the doorstep of Gros Morne National Park, and the moose there are destroying the understory. This national park was established to protect something unique for all Canadians, and what is happening is that an introduced species in the province is destroying that which we are trying to protect. It is interesting that they are allowing a cull of moose in Gros Morne right now, but people eat those moose. They do not have to incinerate them, but they do not commercially trade them, so we define that as a cull. Mr. Cahill asked the question earlier: What is a cull, what is a harvest and what is a hunt?
Senator Raine: Which agency in Canada should make those decisions? I think that is a big challenge. We have to make the right decisions.
Mr. Cahill: The jurisdiction is with Parks Canada under Environment Canada. In fact, last year after we submitted our grey seal proposal, we put together a briefing note to Parks Canada on grey seal management on Sable Island National Park outlining some of the challenges that Canada will be faced with if indeed a grey seal harvest would be necessary. We put that in writing, and I believe it was submitted to this committee for consideration.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. We appreciate your sharing all this information with us.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I would like to commend Mr. Daoust for his work on this. I think it is very important for us if we want to get something done with this problem to have professionals like you who have an obvious commitment to the preservation of animal life and the proper treatment of animals. I want to take the time to commend you for your involvement in this.
There are so many questions. I will try to keep it to a few.
We have an immediate problem. As someone who lives on the coast down there and grew up in the fishing community, arguing about culls or harvests or hunts and what they mean and how they are defined — we have no fish left. The small communities on the East Coast, not only on the Atlantic coast — I think it is fair to say that Nova Scotia is stuck right in the middle of this when it comes to the grey seal. The small communities are disappearing. The longer we take to find a solution, the worse the problem will become.
With regard to the proposed harvest — there is that terminology again. With regard to the reducing of the seals that are foraging in the gulf, a proposed 73,000, what are the long-term implications if we reduce there but do not do an active reduction on Sable Island where most of them tend to inhabit? Is it sustainable? With that large group of seals on Sable Island, will they replenish all those numbers unless we reduce them simultaneously?
Mr. Daoust: If we use a proper method of harvesting the animals, it will take a while to do so in a proper manner. We have to consider the market for it. I think Mr. Dakins can address that better than I. As I think he pointed out, the market should not be flooded.
Sealers are concerned about the large population of harp seals and grey seals, but they will say they do not want to eliminate that population because they depend on it as a source of income. Therefore, we want to reduce it because it has some impact on our fisheries, and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans agrees with us with respect to some parts of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. They want to reduce it, but not to the point where they cannot have a sustainable harvest. I think Mr. Dakins referred to that.
I would love the coastal communities to have access year after year to a relatively stable fur market that they can depend on. For that, they have to have a healthy seal population.
Senator MacDonald: With regard to the market, the sag of the harp seal is fairly well-known, going back to the white coats and the problems with the Europeans that we have encountered. However, the proposed grey seal market is relatively new. What restrictions are out there now that have been ratified and put up against the marketing of grey seals around the world? Are there any that are as onerous as the harp seal?
Mr. Dakins: The prohibition on seal products within the EU is all seal products. By default, grey seals are also under that.
It is interesting that there is a derogation in the European regulation that if the seals are harvested for fisheries management purposes, then the products are allowed to enter the market. We still see China, Taiwan and Korea as other opportunities. A lot of nations have not put up trade barriers to our products; a lot of nations have.
If we are to look at this from a long-term approach, no doubt recognizing the immediate requirement for an immediate reduction for some fisheries management outcomes, then we certainly have our challenges in understanding the pressures on the fish resources in Nova Scotia.
I think there are options. If Canada decides that it needs to remove 70,000 adult seals to have an adequate result in groundfish recovery in your region, I think there are options to be explored for the utilization of those animals. However, in concert with that, if we take 70,000 out now and we witness the same population growth that we have seen over the last three decades on the resource, there is no doubt that new seals will occupy the niche zones that exist.
This is where our struggle with the proposal is to date. Even the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council's recommendation is not necessarily a plan on how to conduct such a harvest. We need to have a long-term plan to keep the population at some prescribed level. That can only be achieved through long-term sustainable harvesting techniques, marketing the products to an educated market. I do not think it is impossible that nations like those in the EU will eventually realize that if they want access, Canada is a food basket for the world. If they want the privilege of buying seafood or other resources from us, they will have to understand that we are endowed to manage all of our ecosystem for the greatest net benefit for humanity.
Mr. Cahill: I want to make one clarification to what Mr. Dakins has just said, that the European Union ban has a derogation to allow import of products from a hunt that is conducted for fisheries management purposes. It is actually a condition on the placing of the market, but further to it being done for conservation purposes, it also must be done on a non-profit basis. That is what the regulation says.
Senator MacDonald: I have some quick questions about the European hunt, because I want to get some context.
In Norway, Scotland, the Baltic countries, are these all harp seal? What type of seal is being hunted? What are the numbers of all these species over there in comparison to ours?
Mr. Cahill: In the Baltic Sea it is a grey seal; in the North Sea around Scotland it is a grey seal. In and around Norway they do hunt some grey seal but also are involved in the harp seal harvest. Iceland is primarily harp seal, with some grey seal.
Senator MacDonald: How do those seal numbers compare to ours, in particular the grey seal?
Mr. Cahill: It is much lower, in fact. In the Baltic where the three Nordic nations plus Estonia have established that the grey seal are a problem to the fishery conservation and fishery activity, the population as of two years ago was about 40,000 grey seal. Our population, as you know, is in around the 400,000 range.
Not many other nations have good science on the populations like we have in Canada. We also have found that the regulatory mechanisms in place and the management of them are also not as rigorous as we have in Canada. Much of the science is not there, but we are aware of the hunting activities.
The harvesting in countries like Sweden and Finland in particular is relatively low. Perhaps there are 10,000 to 15,000 animals taken but, again, it is of a population of 40,000.
Senator MacDonald: It is fairly obvious to me that this is very much a public relations exercise as well. Over the years, we obviously have not done a good job in certain parts of the world telling our side of the story. I assume you are all familiar with the efforts of Canadian governments in the past making presentations to the European Parliament on these issues.
I would like your opinion on the type of presentations that we have made and where they have been deficient, and if there is some way we can address these deficiencies.
Mr. Cahill: Perhaps I can make a comment first. Mr. Dakins and I were both involved in some of those delegation tours in Europe. From our perspective, we were taking a rather defensive position that this is our inherent right. They are our resources and we believe we are doing the right thing and outlining clearly the types of research being done in animal welfare, population management or population studies, that sort of thing.
I do not think that there was a clear understanding of what we were up against or a context of that. Clearly there is an issue of animal welfare in these foreign countries that are markets or potential markets. I do not think that we presented in a way that was broad in its context, that this issue is much larger than seals; it is much larger than harp seals and seals in Canada. It is really the first step toward the use and hunting of any wildlife species. Part of our recommendations in those discussions was to engage in the practices of the science and ensure that anyone who is doing it is involved in that regard. What we did bring was our experience with the Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards. Europe actually has a ban on the importation of Canadian wild fur, unless you either have banned the leghold trap or implemented humane trapping standards within your country. Our organization is the coordinator for that standard in Canada and the research agency for that.
We have found that by addressing that public concern for animal welfare with good science and with negotiations with foreign nations, we are able to come to a common ground that these are important principles. We will invest in these resources; we will implement this in this way. In that regard, it is respected and understood that this is then a legitimate product taken in a legitimate way.
We believe that this standard could well have been used as an example of how to address the sealing issue, and we still do. We still have not received a response back from Fisheries and Oceans on whether they believe that this could be a reasonable comparable international treaty addressing a welfare issue.
Senator Poirier: One of the reasons we are doing the study is because we are hearing a lot about the impact it is having on the groundfish, the cod and everything else that is being consumed by the grey seal. At the same time, we know that most groups do not believe in the cull of the grey seal; they would prefer that we do something with the product that we are harvesting. There are groups that we met with that told us that they felt that very little research had been done in the past, whether the product of the grey seal could be used like the product of the harp seal is being used, for example, with the omega-3, the furs, the meat, even the valve that they are using for the heart now and experimenting on and different things like that.
Are there any reasons why the grey seal product could not compete with the harp seal product?
Mr. Dakins: Absolutely not. As I said, when we were trying to develop the industry from 2001, when we were first dealing with the Grey Seal Research and Development Society, which actually held the quota for a number of years in Nova Scotia, our company did purchase 100 per cent of the landed product for three consecutive years. We managed to evaluate that product and produced some sample products. There is interest by buyers and there was certainly more interest at that time when seals were a desired commodity when we were purchasing harp seals from sealers at $100 per hide. Had we been given the opportunity, I do not think we would be here today with such a resource of grey seals.
As I said, from the young "beater'' age class of the grey seal, you can produce omega-3 capsules for human consumption or animal feed, whatever you want to do. You can use the furs to generate any product you would use to create another seal product.
Though our company did not do the research specifically, I have been advised that the meat products are also acceptable and palatable.
Mr. Daoust: You mentioned the potential utilization of heart valves. This has been explored with the young harp seal population. Some work has been done using the young grey seals as a potential source of heart valves because they are larger than the young harp seals. You can have a series of sizes of valves that, obviously, would fit into different sizes of human beings for transplant. Therefore, if the potential for heart valves materializes with the harp seals, I can easily see this also materializing for the grey seal.
Senator Cochrane: How long will that research take?
Mr. Daoust: I do not know. I guess it is done in cooperation with physicians in Europe. Researching use of animal products for human transplants takes a long time. However, if it materializes, it will be a very large and important source of material for human medicine.
Mr. Dakins: I understand that the company involved is hoping to present to the Senate committee as well. I believe that the timeline is about 15 years from clinical trial to acceptance to marketability of the product. That program is about two years old now.
Senator Patterson: We have not talked about the Asian market. Have you any advice that we might give to the Government of Canada about how this should be approached? I know that the Fur Institute of Canada has had experience in Asia as well as in Europe. What would be the appropriate roles of DFO and the Department of Foreign Affairs? Could you give us some advice on how you would see that market being cultivated strategically?
Mr. Cahill: I will make a comment structurally and then ask Mr. Dakins to comment on the market opportunities there.
The Chinese market is important for any product in the world today. They do have standards. For some of the oil and meat products they have rigorous standards that they want our products to meet, and we believe that we should be supporting the mechanisms in Canada to ensure that we are able to meet those standards, be it quality for consumption or the way in which the animals are harvested. That is an important mechanism from a management standpoint.
From a cooperation and communication standpoint, we believe it could be useful for the Canadian government to liaise with its political allies in China to again communicate the challenges of this issue and that it should be taken seriously. This should be considered as a legitimate and important trade product.
Mr. Dakins: We have been there for each of the volleys and attempts, and we have seen the complications with formalizing the trade. However, we are very encouraged by the request for product from China. We hope that will come to fruition soon.
One challenge for Canada in general as it pertains to seal is that we need to bolster our position and educate people internationally about the number of seals we have and the requirement or the necessity to harvest them in conjunction with identified fisheries management objectives. China is a very large importer of Canadian seafood. I suspect that the seafood companies there would be receptive to information and would understand that if they want to continue to buy lobster, crab or groundfish from Canada, we have no option but to manage our strong and abundant seal resources, be it grey seals, ring seals or harp seals.
Senator Poirier: In your view is seal seafood?
Mr. Dakins: In my view, the inherent characteristics of seal make it a meat, but because of the environment it lives in and the interactions it has with other species, I would have to classify it as a fish.
I will tell you a short, funny story. My grandmother was a devout Catholic. Around Easter, the vessels would come back from the hunt loaded down and would have plenty of seal meat available. When my father first started dating my mother, he showed up at her house as she was sitting down to a big feed of seal on Good Friday. He proceeded to correct her for eating meat on Good Friday. Needless to say, I almost did not come into being because of my father challenging my grandmother's belief that seal was a fish.
The Chair: That is a debate for another day.
As you can see by the questions of our senators, we are very interested in this topic. If you have any further information that you think would be helpful, feel free to forward it to us.
On behalf of the committee, thank you very much.
Mr. Dakins: I understand that the Senate committee may travel to do further consultation. We cordially invite you to our processing facility in Trinity Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador. I spoke to the other large processor, who also invites you to their facility to show you more about how we process and the end uses for the products.
Thank you once again for this opportunity. I wish you all great luck and success.
(The committee adjourned.)