Transcripts & Minutes - Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade (44th Parliament, 1st Session)

Past Session:

THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

EVIDENCE

OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 22, 2023

The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 4:15 p.m. [ET] for its study on foreign relations and international trade generally.

Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Peter Boehm, I am a senator from Ontario and the Chair of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

[English]

Before we begin, I wish to invite committee members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves.

Senator Ravalia: Welcome. I’m Mohamed Ravalia representing Newfoundland and Labrador.

Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia.

Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.

Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.

Senator M. Deacon: Welcome. Marty Deacon, Ontario.

Senator Richards: Dave Richards, New Brunswick.

Senator Greene: Steve Greene, Nova Scotia.

The Chair: Thank you, senators. I wish to welcome all of you, as well as those across our country who may be watching us today on SenParlVU.

Colleagues, we are meeting today under our general order of reference to begin our discussion on the humanitarian situation in Gaza. To discuss the matter, we are pleased to welcome, from Global Affairs Canada, Christopher MacLennan, Deputy Minister of International Development; Ann Flanagan Whalen, Director General, North Africa, Israel, West Bank/Gaza; and Tara Carney, Director, International Humanitarian Assistance. Welcome and thank you for being with us today.

Before we hear your remarks and proceed to questions and answers, I wish to ask members and witnesses in the room to please refrain from leaning in too closely to your microphone or remove your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact the committee staff and others in the room who might be wearing the earpiece for interpretive purposes.

[Translation]

We are now ready to hear your opening remarks, which will be followed by questions from senators.

Deputy Minister, you have the floor.

Christopher MacLennan, Deputy Minister of International Development, Global Affairs Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Like each of you, we are deeply concerned by the dire humanitarian situation that is deteriorating in Gaza, as well as its immediate and long-term consequences for civilians.

Just six weeks ago, Hamas’ brutal attack on Israel shocked the world. Since then, the Government of Canada has been unequivocal in our support for Israel’s right to self-defence. We have also been unequivocal in our position that international humanitarian law must be upheld.

[English]

Following international humanitarian law means that hostages must be released. We are hopeful that the agreement announced today facilitates the release of more hostages very soon. International humanitarian law is also clear that medical and humanitarian personnel and facilities must not be targeted for attack and must not be used for military purposes. As you have heard the Prime Minister say, “Even wars have rules,” and he has called on Israel to show maximum restraint.

From a humanitarian assistance perspective, it is hard to overstate the scale of the emergency unfolding in Gaza. We know of at least 11,000 fatalities. This includes 4,500 children and 3,000 women. In addition, over 6,500 people, including 4,400 children, are reported missing and may be trapped under the rubble.

In terms of displacement, the numbers are no less staggering: 65% of Gaza’s population displaced from their homes and over 813,000 people sheltering in just 154 designated emergency shelters managed by the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency, known as UNRRA. This is nearly three times what these shelters are intended for. That means that there is nowhere near sufficient hygiene facilities or even places for people to sleep. Women and children are sleeping indoors, but men are sleeping outdoors, and winter is coming. The overcrowding is leading to the spread of diseases like acute respiratory illness and diarrhea, and we are at risk of a public health disaster. Part of the reason overcrowding is so severe is that critical infrastructure has been destroyed. The war has caused the destruction of over 45% of housing in Gaza and over 300 schools. It has destroyed water and sewage.

I know that I have shared a lot of numbers, but it is important to try to demonstrate the scale of the emerging tragedy unfolding in Gaza as we discuss the response on the ground and Canada’s contribution to those efforts.

[Translation]

With respect to humanitarian access, the situation remains very dangerous and very difficult. Frequent communication blackouts are making humanitarian operations even more difficult. Since October 21, excluding fuel, only 1,320 trucks had entered Gaza via the Rafah border. UN agencies estimate that the aid entering the Gaza Strip represents only a small fraction of what is needed.

We are hopeful that the agreement announced yesterday for the release of hostages and a temporary pause in fighting will enable workers to provide vulnerable people with very basic humanitarian aid.

Many problems still remain. For example, before trucks are allowed to cross the border at Rafah, they have to take a long detour to a facility set up for inspection. We also know that there are many delays on the road to Cairo. Rafah is quite far away, which poses obvious logistical problems.

[English]

There is no question that the backbone of the humanitarian response in Gaza is UNRRA. They have proven to be an experienced and trusted partner with a capacity to deliver in an immensely complex operating environment. Canada, along with other like-minded donors, will continue to provide much-needed support to the agency. On the ground, UNRRA is joined by experienced humanitarian partners, including the Red Cross, World Food Programme — who I understand you’ll be hearing from — and the World Health Organization. Their work is centred on cash transfers, food kits, water, hygiene kits and non-food items to help civilians in need. These have been sourced from supplies already prepositioned in Gaza as the supply of urgently needed supplies trickles at a very slow pace.

It is crucial that we support the continued efforts of humanitarian agencies and listen to their advice and needs. I will note that, before the war began, Canada was already one of the largest bilateral donors of humanitarian and development assistance to Palestinians, and we were actually the first western country to announce additional humanitarian aid. To date, Canada has announced $60 million in additional humanitarian assistance funding to experienced UN, Red Cross and Red Crescent movement organizations, as well as other non-governmental partners. This includes a matching fund with the Humanitarian Coalition here in Canada, which represents 12 leading Canadian humanitarian NGOs. The coalition’s appeal raised $13.7 million, and the Government of the Canada is happy to match every dollar raised.

This support is very important, but it is clear that the overall funding needs remain incredibly high. This is clear from the flash appeal released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA. On October 12, the appeal was for US$294 million, but by November 6, it had risen to US$1.2 billion, and we expect it to increase in the weeks to come.

I would close here by noting that Canada is working on this crisis from all angles. My focus on is on humanitarian assistance, but we also engage with partners in the international community to coordinate efforts for post-conflict peace building, reconstruction and humanitarian efforts. We engage frequently with the United States, other key allies and regional partners, including Israel. Minister Joly and Minister Hussen have both travelled to the region to advocate for greater access and an increased scale of humanitarian aid through the opening of more border crossings into Gaza. We continue to call for greater humanitarian access, including through humanitarian pauses, to ensure that the much-needed assistance reaches the vulnerable people in Gaza. Canada will continue to stand firmly with the Palestinian and Israeli peoples in their right to live side-by-side in peace and security.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Deputy Minister MacLennan.

Colleagues, I would like to acknowledge that we’ve been joined by Senator Don Plett of Manitoba and Senator Amina Gerba of Quebec.

I wish to inform you, senators, that you will each have a maximum of four minutes for the first round with each panel. This includes questions and answers and, therefore, both to members of the committee and witnesses, I would encourage you to please be concise. We can always go to a second round if we have time.

Before proceeding to questions, it is important to remember that this is a very fluid and sensitive subject we’re dealing with today, and let’s keep it that way in the best traditions of our institution, with mutual respect in terms of all of the questions. I would remind everyone, members and witnesses as well as those Canadians who may be watching us, that the specific topic of this week’s meetings is the humanitarian situation in Gaza. With that, we will go to questions.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you to the three witnesses for being here today. This is a sensitive but very important topic. I am glad that you are here and in person. We greatly appreciate it.

My first question concerns the future of the children in Gaza after this conflict. You have given us some information. You have given us some very pertinent data. It has been estimated that roughly 40% of the casualties from the IDF offensive have been children, which you would expect because half of the population of Gaza is young people. Many doctors on the ground are describing a phenomenon of wounded children with no surviving family — children who survived a strike but whose entire extended families have been killed. If they do survive this round of fighting, they will be orphans with no relatives to care for them, many permanently disabled. The place where they live, for all intents and purpose, will cease to function in any way that they would know, and I cannot think of a more vulnerable position for young people whose suffering will not end unless something is done to help them. With that in mind and looking to the after, which we hope is sooner rather than later, what preparations and enhancements are Canada doing to help this part of the issue?

Mr. MacLennan: That is a very good question. I think that everyone has been greatly disturbed and shocked by the number of children who have been killed. We have seen the numbers. More children have died in the last month-and-a-half than in the previous three years in armed conflict. The situation is truly grave.

The first priority is the pause in the hostilities right now, which allows for humanitarian assistance to get in immediately. That is our first priority, and then, obviously, calling on all parties to the conflict to respect humanitarian law.

In terms of what there is to do next, I will say that the Government of Canada, along with our partners, has a lot of experience in working in conflict zones, unfortunately. That includes the type of specialized programming that children need, everything from how to ensure that education continues — we learned a great deal, for example, during the Syrian crisis. One of the first things that had been identified in the Syrian crisis was the lost generation of learners, if you recall, and the necessity of finding ways to better respond to that immediate need for those children who have survived, whether, unfortunately, they had lost their parents or not. That is where a number of important organizations actually were born. There are so many organizations dedicated to working in vulnerable zones, quite honestly. It is also a follow-up on Canada’s G7 from 2018 and the Charlevoix Education Initiative, which focused on the learning needs of girls and women in fragile and conflict-affected areas. There is a great deal of experience that we have in this space.

As to what we’re going to have to do, obviously, the moment we have something resembling a sustainable peace in the area, the needs of children are going to have to be put at the very forefront of what the response needs to be in terms of the reconstruction and rebuilding phase. That includes everything from their health — we can imagine the psychological trauma that they have experienced — but also putting them back on track. You made mention of the rather important economic dislocation that this will have caused in the Gaza Strip. Giving them a future will require, honestly, a full-on development and reconstruction response.

The Chair: Thank you, deputy minister. Was it the White Helmets that you were referring to?

Mr. MacLennan: No. No Lost Generation by UNICEF.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.

Senator Richards: Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

You answered my question when you answered Senator Deacon’s question, so I will ask about today, because so many were supposed to be released today. Do we know how many Canadians are hostages? Do we know how many children are held hostage by Hamas?

Mr. MacLennan: I am not aware of the exact numbers. That is not because I have anything to hide but just because it is not the part of the department I am responsible for. I can say that the pause is meant to begin tomorrow. There is an important time difference of seven or eight hours.

Senator Richards: Tomorrow, okay. Right, okay.

Mr. MacLennan: My understanding, which would be similar to anyone else who has read about the brokered deal in the news, is that there is an expectation of 10 hostages per day to be released. I am unaware of what those lists look like.

Senator Richards: I am aware of that. I just wonder if we know how many Canadians are there and whether there are any Canadian women and children.

Mr. MacLennan: You might know better than I do.

Ann Flanagan Whalen, Director General, North Africa, Israel, West Bank: We have confirmed that one Canadian woman is missing presently. We are not aware of any Canadian children missing. We are aware of 40 child hostages, at least, who have Israeli nationality.

Senator Richards: Thank you.

Senator Harder: Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Would you give us more detail of who you have on the ground and from where you are monitoring the situation, both from a departmental perspective but also for Canadians who are engaged in civil society or relief efforts in other organizations? In other words, how are you managing your network?

Mr. MacLennan: Maybe Ann is better placed to give details.

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: We have a representative office in Ramallah, which has a fairly large development section for our system. One of the members of that team has gone to the Rafah crossing in Egypt where he is surveying what is happening there and keeping an eye out for us. The remainder of our development team remains on the ground in Ramallah, in Jerusalem, interacting with the international community from there. We have not been in Gaza since this began. We do not have an office in Gaza, normally. In this case, obviously, the conditions are not such that we would be sending in our staff right now.

Senator Harder: Are you aware of Canadians working in Gaza for any of the relief organizations?

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: I am not. We have a list of Canadians who have put up their hands for various forms of consular assistance. We had one Canadian working for an international organization who managed to get out through Rafah in the first days.

Senator Harder: Thank you.

Senator Boniface: Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

My question follows from Senator Harder’s question. With the announcement yesterday, there will be a four-day pause, if everyone agrees and it continues that way. What is Canada doing to take advantage of that time? How does that planning work? Who do you work with? I am trying to get a sense of strategy, if you can help me there.

Mr. MacLennan: We have been hoping for this for weeks, and that is exactly right. The humanitarian system is one that is very much a networked system. Unlike development assistance, the humanitarian system is relatively simple but, at the same time, very connected.

The prepositioning of materials has been a number one issue that we have been working on. As I mentioned in my opening statement, this has proven to be a very difficult situation for a number of reasons. There are, if my memory serves correct, four access points into Gaza, typically. Right now, only one is open, and that one is Rafah, which is the one we have all heard of in the news and is in the Sinai. Allowing humanitarian materials to be transported into Gaza was agreed to but with the condition that each truck be inspected. As you can well imagine, that has led to a backing up of all types of materials that are required — water, fuel and all the humanitarian goods that are normally part of a humanitarian response of this style.

That being said, we are still trying to take advantage of the pause. We are hoping to find ways to get more materials into Gaza. There have been a number of ideas floated and put on the table, including a portable port that could be constructed rapidly. Could another access point be opened for this purpose? Along with our like-minded allies, we are advocating for greatest access and an opening of access points, which would make a tremendous difference in terms of getting the needed materials to the people who need them the most.

Senator MacDonald: Thank you, witnesses.

Mr. MacLennan, you mentioned that Canada makes a substantial contribution to the relief there. I think all Canadians support that. Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all share a border with Israel. They are all very close. I have been there, and it is a very small country. There are wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait. How does their contribution compare to Canada’s? What are they putting up to help?

Mr. MacLennan: Ann is probably better placed to speak to the specifics of that, but overall, the response has been quick. A number of the neighbouring countries have acted very quickly. Egypt has done a great deal in terms of managing a very difficult situation on their border, and other Gulf states have put up funding to support the humanitarian crisis. The truth is that the appeal that has been released, which is US$1.2 billion, has not been met. It is at about one-third filled. Canada has done its share. There are others we would be looking to to contribute as well, not just in the region but globally.

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: We would be happy to see further contributions from the region. That will be very important from legitimacy, humanitarian and engagement standpoints. Yes, we would like to see more.

Senator MacDonald: Why wouldn’t these wealthy oil and gas states that are so close by and connected be more forthcoming with support?

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: They have been at various points. What they are telling us now and what they are saying publicly is that they are concerned about investing in reconstruction when they do not know what the situation is going to be. That said, I am confident that they will step forward. There is a lot of concern for Palestinian brothers in those states. I am confident they will step up.

Senator MacDonald: The numbers on casualties and the displaced — who provides those numbers, and how reliable are they? Do you have faith in the numbers that are being sent to us and published?

Mr. MacLennan: The numbers are coming from the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, UNRRA. Is that right?

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: The numbers typically cited are from the Palestinian Ministry of Health. The Palestinian Ministry of Health is the local authority in Gaza. So it is Hamas. There has been some skepticism about those numbers as a result.

What we’re hearing from the humanitarian organizations and international organizations is that they can certainly believe the scale of the numbers that have been put out. There has been a list of names and ID numbers that was put out at one point as well by the Ministry of Health. In recent days, I have to say that the numbers have not been counted adequately simply because communications have not been working, but we can see the scale of the destruction and understand that it is a catastrophe.

Senator MacDonald: Thank you.

Senator Woo: Thank you, witnesses.

The UN and Israel have a very poor relationship, in part because Israel has taken umbrage at comments made by the Secretary General. I understand Israel is not issuing visas for UN personnel to enter the country. How has this affected the work of UNRRA, which is, by your description, the principal delivery mechanism for assistance to Palestinians in Gaza? Does that change the way you think about how Canada delivers its assistance through the UN or other channels that might be available to help Palestinians?

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: The deputy described well that UNRRA is the backbone of the humanitarian Palestinian relief effort, and that’s an important thing to bear in mind here. I think we have to rely on UNRRA looking to the future as well. We don’t know what Palestinian governance will look like post whatever we want to call this. We need to look at who has the track record of being able to deliver these services. That is UNRRA. We trust UNRRA. We have been working with UNRRA closely on issues like neutrality when there have been concerns about educational material that have been brought forward. We exercise enhanced due diligence on all of our assistance going into Palestinian areas. That is an important thing that will continue. We work closely with UNRRA, we trust UNRRA, and we will continue to do so. They are indispensable to this effort.

Senator Woo: I suppose I’m asking you if Israeli intransigence toward the UN has damaged the ability of UNRRA to do its work. I understand that they are the only game in town and the one we probably should work with for the foreseeable future.

Mr. MacLennan: The situation right now is incredibly charged. I’m very aware of the incident you are talking about; we saw it play out. At this moment, though, the primary reason UNRRA is struggling to deliver is because of the situation on the ground. There will be a lot of work that will need to be done in terms of the relationship of the United Nations going forward in this theatre and with respect to the future of supports to the Palestinian people. For the time being, though, it is fundamentally the situation on the ground that is the biggest impediment. As you are probably aware, the number of UN workers who have been killed is higher than in any other conflict. At this moment, just getting the supplies into UNRRA so they can undertake their efforts is one of the largest challenges. But it is a very good point.

Senator Coyle: Thank you very much to our witnesses for being with us and helping us understand the severity of the situation and what Canada is doing. Thank you for the work that I’m sure you’re very busy doing and from which we are taking time away so you could be with us.

Last week, within one of our groups in the Senate, we had members of the humanitarian coalition speaking with us. Doctors Without Borders and Care Canada were representing the coalition. I’m not an expert on international humanitarian law whatsoever, but they referred to the fourth Geneva Convention, which is the one that affords protection to civilians, including in occupied territories. “Civilians” in this case, in Israel, who were clearly — there has to be some problem with what happened. It was an absolutely horrific terrorist attack that happened there. But now there is also the protection of civilians in Gaza and in the West Bank, actually, at this moment, with this charged atmosphere and with this war that is raging. We are signatories to that convention, and one of the things they mentioned was the bystander provision, which is that if you are a signatory, you have a responsibility. I don’t know enough about this. Could you tell us a little bit about what that means for Canada and what that might mean in the situation that we’re looking at here?

Mr. MacLennan: Thank you very much, senator.

I am going to be honest with you as well: I’m not an expert in international humanitarian law. I know a great deal about international humanitarian assistance, but international humanitarian law is a completely separate domain.

However, I do know that, from day one, the Government of Canada, right up to and including the Prime Minister, has indicated that, under international law, yes, Israel has a right to self-defence, particularly after the terrorist attack that actually broke the previous ceasefire, but that defence must take place within humanitarian rules, and that means that laws must be respected. I think the government, from day one, has been crystal clear that we have called upon both parties to respect international humanitarian law. Obviously, the situation on the ground is such that it is difficult to assess what is happening. There are proper channels for making those assessments but, in the interim, Canada has consistently called for both parties to respect international humanitarian law. We’re obviously exercising recognition of not targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. Those are key things the government has repeated on many occasions. All of us, including the like-minded countries we work with, find this to be a very difficult situation, but we continue to press for respect for international humanitarian law.

Senator Plett: I’m going to follow along the lines of what Senator Coyle already asked. I will read two quotes. One is the Prime Minister speaking, reported by CTV News on November 15:

I have been clear that the price of justice cannot be continued suffering of all Palestinian civilians. Even wars have rules.

Prime Minister Netanyahu said on November 19:

Israel provides civilians in Gaza humanitarian corridors and safe zones, Hamas prevents them from leaving at gunpoint. It is Hamas not Israel that should be held accountable for committing a double war crime — targeting civilians while hiding behind civilians. The forces of civilization must back Israel in defeating Hamas barbarism.

If Global Affairs Canada considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization — and they do — why has the tone of the government been that this is a conventional war with rules? I’m sure no one here disagrees that the rules of engagement must be in accordance with international law, but is it the position of Global Affairs Canada that Hamas is a regular army that would follow the rules of war? Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are not a regular army.

Mr. MacLennan: That is exactly correct. That is within Canadian law. It is recognized as a terrorist organization. But the Government of Canada calls upon all parties that are party to a conflict to respect international humanitarian law.

Senator Plett: Including expecting that a terrorist organization would listen?

Mr. MacLennan: Expecting, no, but calling for. The understanding, obviously, is that this is, as you have said, not conventional. We understand that, but the Government of Canada is most concerned with the targeting of civilians, the destruction of civilian infrastructure and all of the absolutely brutal activities that have been undertaken by Hamas, including the taking of hostages. All of those are against international humanitarian law.

Senator Plett: For the past several weeks, Hezbollah has been firing rockets into northern Israel, resulting in the mass evacuation of Israeli civilians. Again, there is the targeting of civilians. What is Canada doing to de-escalate this other front of Iran’s proxy war against Israel, and can you tell me when Canada explicitly condemned Hezbollah for its actions?

Mr. MacLennan: I’m not aware. As I said, I’m responsible for humanitarian assistance, not for the broader government policy in Lebanon.

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: I’m not actually responsible for Lebanon myself, but we have expressed a lot of concern over the activity on the northern border of Israel. We recognize that Hezbollah is a deeply problematic actor in the region. We have been engaging at all levels, including our ministers who travelled to the region, to speak to regional actors and to encourage cooling down and disengagement, with those who have influence with Hezbollah.

Senator Plett: Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Welcome to all of our witnesses. As our colleague said, we’re truly grateful to have you here during this crisis, which is most certainly keeping you busy.

In this humanitarian crisis in Gaza, we know how much they really need international organizations that can take action on the ground. However, many humanitarian workers have been killed since the hostilities began. Just yesterday, three Doctors Without Borders physicians were killed in the strike on Al Awda Hospital.

What is Canada doing to protect these essential personnel? What should we be doing to help keep these people free from war while they try to help those who need it most?

Mr. MacLennan: Thank you for the question, senator.

Of course, Gaza has needed humanitarian aid for a very long time. For many years, these humanitarian workers have integrated themselves into life in Gaza; they are part of the health care system and the education system, and they are often Palestinian.

Since this conflict began, Canada has always called for international humanitarian law to be upheld, and that includes respect for what humanitarian workers are doing. That’s also why the Government of Canada, like others among our allies, including the United States, France and Germany, has called for humanitarian pauses, precisely to let through humanitarian goods and services, but also to let the organizations on the ground work better and set up better physically.

Senator Gerba: In concrete terms, how can people be protected on the ground? Is there any way to protect them during air strikes, because there is no filter?

Mr. MacLennan: For Canada, the only way is to ask the parties involved to uphold international law, which includes letting humanitarian workers do their job.

[English]

Senator Ravalia: Given the dynamic situation and the hope now of a pause and exchange of hostages, to what extent do we have leverage to ensure that some of the aid that’s sitting at the Rafah border can be more expeditiously brought into areas where we are literally facing a catastrophic health disaster? It is important to recognize that there are many innocent Palestinians who are caught in this trap. From the information that we receive — I have connections with Médecins sans frontières — it is beyond tragic talking to people who are there, attempting to assist genuine individuals, like you and I, who are victims of a tragic situation.

Furthermore, is there any way to ensure that communications are maintained? Communications are entirely dependent upon fuel entering Gaza. If that fuel is cut off, anyone who is there, international agencies included, has a total inability to tell the world what is happening.

Mr. MacLennan: Thank you, senator.

As I mentioned, the arrival of this four-day pause — and it should be noted that there is an indication that it is possible that it could be extended — was exactly the type of moment we have been waiting for. Canada, along with all of its allies and the broader humanitarian network including NGOs, the UN agencies and all the main partners, has regularly been lobbying for greater access for humanitarian supplies to enter Gaza to meet the needs of the Palestinian people. We are hoping that this pause provides maybe a space to focus on that issue. I know that ministers have lobbied directly on greater access, including the opening of another access point. The access set point that is available, Kerem Shalom, is actually the one that is best designed for allowing significant supplies and trucks to enter into Gaza. It would be helpful if we could do that. Hopefully, this pause will provide that moment of opportunity to focus on how we can get more supplies in. In addition to all of the other challenges of getting more supplies in — the fact they have to be inspected, that they have to arrive at an airport and travel pretty far south towards Israel and then back up to Rafah — there is the question of the ongoing conflict and the ability to move supplies within the Gaza Strip. We’re hopeful that this moment will provide what you called leverage, that opportunity to press further to find ways to get more in while we have the opportunity.

Senator Ravalia: Is there any opportunity for some kind of a United Nations peacekeeping force or peacekeeping initiative to be introduced to counteract that disastrous humanitarian situation?

Mr. MacLennan: I fully expect that there are many that are thinking very hard on what options are available. The question of security is at the heart of many of the challenges in this region. We know that any pathway to a durable peace will have to come with the proper security guarantees on all sides. Whether there is a role for the United Nations to play or whether it is organized in a different way, we’re not 100% sure of how that might play out, but obviously it will be a big challenge for the United Nations to play that role, I think.

The Chair: Before we go to round two, I would like to throw two quick questions out to you, Deputy Minister MacLennan.

You’ve mentioned the coordination with the like-minded, and some colleagues have talked about how to press the non-like-minded a bit. You are also the Prime Minister’s personal representative for the G20. There is, I think, a virtual leaders meeting coming up. We’re not on the best terms with the chair of the G20, India, but is there an opportunity in that context, and for the like-minded, to exercise a bit of suasion with those who might not be as like-minded?

Mr. MacLennan: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, in addition to my appearance here today, which I was very much looking forward to at the end of the day, the G20 leaders call took place this morning at 6:30. Interestingly, for those of you not familiar with the G20, the G20 is not a group of like-mindeds but it is the 20 largest economies in the world. They are very different democracies and autocracies, but they do come together to try to figure out how to work on economic issues and how we can better coordinate macroeconomic policy and international trade to the betterment of the global economy.

The arrival of conflicts has actually been a huge challenge for the G20, starting first with Ukraine and, now, with this conflict. This was an issue that was raised by most of the leaders, if not all of the leaders, who spoke today. The recognition is that, if you want headwinds for the global economy, nothing is worse than conflict and the disarray and instability that conflict creates. We saw that with the Russian aggression in Ukraine and the impacts it had on energy and food security. Even though there has been quite a lot of reticence to allow any type of political or security issues come to that table, because quite honestly, it is not a group of like-minded, I thought that today there was actually quite a bit of discussion on this issue, and there was a clear call that there needs to be a durable peace as the only way out.

The Chair: Thank you.

My second question is a short one, and it is regarding humanitarian assistance and the international appeals practice. I suspect it has not changed very much since I was in your job seven years ago, but the need is even greater than it was then. This is a crisis of some unprecedented proportion. Is there any move coming to change that method, or is it the tried and true method of when the call comes out, we respond according to proportionality of our usual contributions or economic weight and all of these things that factor into it? Is there any sense to look at this from a different perspective?

Mr. MacLennan: The short answer to that is, in the current crisis, it is the traditional mechanisms that have kicked in immediately with the flash appeal that we saw at $1.2 billion. That being said, the longer answer — and I would be happy to come back at some point in the future for you — is that the rise in humanitarian need over the last five to ten years has far outstripped the available resources that are there to respond to it. The number of people in need of humanitarian assistance has tripled over the last eight years, and the sheer quantity of the appeal money that is demanded has also increased threefold over the last, I think — how many years?

Tara Carney, Director, International Humanitarian Assistance, Global Affairs Canada: I am going to say five years.

Mr. MacLennan: Five. That is obviously having a deleterious effect on budgets. On the one hand, you have climate change to respond to, and, on the other hand, you have humanitarian crises, and what is getting squeezed in the middle is what had been our traditional development assistance to help countries climb out of poverty. It is hard to ignore immediate needs.

The Chair: There are lots of ideas out there in terms of leveraging the private sector and other things. We can discuss that another time.

Colleagues, we will now go into round two. I will go to three-minute segments now.

Senator M. Deacon: I would like to think about Canada’s view of what Gaza will look like after this conflict. I will do it from a humanitarian perspective. Presumably, Hamas will no longer be a functioning government. It has been suggested that the Palestinian Authority will be asked to run the Gaza Strip, but the question of their legitimacy is there on the West Bank, much less Gaza. There is also the matter of — we’re watching this — a huge displacement of Palestinians to the south of the Gaza Strip, which has doubled in size since the war started, and I imagine the north will be uninhabitable for a long time, as we see it. Left to fester, this certainly might lead to more resentment and further conflict. It creates those conditions. Is Canada a part of any discussion on what post-war Gaza might look like? Is there any chance of the international community being invited to work together to assist in the rebuilding?

The Chair: You have two minutes to answer that one.

Mr. MacLennan: Obviously, the near-term priority is actually the humanitarian pause and getting in the immediate humanitarian assistance that’s needed. In terms of the longer term, my understanding is that what is dominating discussions is just trying to figure out what an initial durable peace looks like. What does it take to get to a point where there is an elimination of conflict and, from there, how do you create that stability?

From the humanitarian side, we can fully expect that this will take years. This will be very traditional, moving from an immediate humanitarian response where you are only focused on meeting initial humanitarian needs through to those initial stages of reconstruction and rebuilding of basic infrastructure. The very first things that go in are health care and education. Those are some of the first things that we try to establish. Education For All is the name of the organization that focuses on ensuring education in conflict and fragile states. It will be very much step-by-step, and it will be an incredibly difficult road because so much of it will be dependent upon the ability to create a durable and just peace in the region that creates the ability to have reconstruction.

Senator Harder: I want to continue on this theme. It seems to me that a durable peace is some way away. One of the issues facing Gaza and the West Bank is the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and the regeneration, if I can put it that way, of the political leadership. President Biden has said that the ultimate durable peace framework has to include a two-state solution, which would certainly be my view. In the work that you are doing with like-mindeds on sketching out governance capacity, where do you see hope, if any, for there to be a governance authority that covers the region that is both legitimate and committed to a durable peace?

Mr. MacLennan: Two minutes again?

The Chair: Actually, a bit less than that.

Mr. MacLennan: That is the million-dollar question. It is very clear that the events of the last six weeks have reignited the argument that a more dedicated, international effort is needed on the two-state solution. Numerous leaders have come out and have said that this is the only real pathway forward on this issue.

One thing I would say — obviously, speaking about the Palestinian people — is that this is one of the things that countries like Canada are remarkably good at, and that is supporting on governance. If the proper structures can be agreed to and security guarantees can be agreed to — and those are big, big questions — then that could lead to the actual creation of a Palestinian state. This is one area that Canada does have a great deal of experience and expertise in, helping with the building up of the basic apparatus of a state and the training that is required for a functioning civil service that is neutral and responds to the needs of its citizens, training of parliamentarians and training of judges and the judicial system. That will be a very long road, I would think.

Senator Richards: I wish that I was even as optimistic as you. We have Israel surrounded by enemies and armed to the teeth. I do not blame them for being armed to the teeth. In spite of the devastation in Palestine, which I do not want to see, they have a strong man at the helm because they wanted a strong man at the helm. If they don’t have a strong man at the helm, they live in constant war. Now, because this happened, he and the Israeli Ministry of Defense have to prove themselves to the Israeli people. It is a quagmire. It is a real mess. You have right of return, and you have from the mountain to the sea, and you and western establishments built up by the Israeli settlers. I cannot see any way out of this except continual conflict for however long it takes. If you get rid of Hamas, there will always be another Hamas until you change the philosophy of how to live side-by-side. Right now, I am not too optimistic that will happen.

The Chair: I think that was a statement.

Senator Richards: I suppose it was a statement.

The Chair: Would you like to respond? I think we all feel it.

Mr. MacLennan: I certainly understand that sentiment. The unfortunate truth is that the attacks of October 7, which were horrific, vindicated a lot who consider that they absolutely are surrounded by enemies.

Senator Richards: Yes, and enemies who are silently gleeful that this is taking place without becoming engaged themselves, and Iran too.

The Chair: We have two senators who wish to ask questions and only three minutes left for this panel, so please be economical in your questions.

Senator Coyle: I want to build on the road that Senators Deacon and Harder were taking us down.

I want to go back to your previous experience. Canada has been engaged in this part of the world for quite some time. Canada has, sadly, had to play a significant humanitarian role for quite some time in this region, even before this crisis, but we have also been involved in development and in peace. Of course, the focus right now has to be on access to humanitarian aid, 100%, but you spoke about post-conflict peace-building. What kind of structures, organizations and expertise in Israel and in the various areas where the Palestinians are living do we have? Do we have relationships there where we can see a basis to start to build when it is the moment to do so?

The Chair: Hold on to that for a moment. We will get Senator Gerba to ask her question, and then you can respond to both.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: You mentioned that we’re up to $60 million in funding. I’d like you to explain how the funds are distributed and where we stand today in terms of their distribution.

[English]

Ms. Flanagan Whalen: Let me speak a bit about where our toehold is on post-conflict peace building. I think we can build on what we have been working on here. We have an excellent network in our representative office and in our embassy in Tel Aviv. Peace movements on both sides are not in the greatest of shape at this moment, I am afraid. That being said, the toeholds exist in the work that we are doing with women and children. We are doing some excellent work in sustainable livelihoods as well that I think provides us a toehold and gives people that kind of hope about what the future looks like for them. We can build upon that. I was listening to some of the comments about institution building and democracy as well. We have done a lot of work on both justice sector and security sector reform. These are things that can be built upon, hard and soft, in terms of the post-conflict peace building. You cannot really have peace if you cannot trust. Building that trust is so important, and we have engaged deeply in that.

The Chair: Thank you very much. We have reached the end of our time.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank Christopher MacLennan, Ann Flanagan Whalen and Tara Carney for joining us today. I suspect that, given the nature of this crisis, we will have you back at some time. I think that would be good. Thank you for the information that you have provided today.

For the second portion of our meeting this afternoon, we are joined by Carl Skau, Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer, World Food Programme. I am very pleased he is here as our witness this evening. It is even later where he is in Rome. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Skau. We know you are very busy. We are delighted you are with us. If you could proceed with your preliminary statement, we will then move on to senators’ questions.

Carl Skau, Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer, World Food Programme: Thank you very much, senator, and thank you for this opportunity. I just joined a few minutes before you concluded the first session, so I realize you have already dug deeply into the discussion. However, let me see if I can add some information from our point of view.

First, I wanted to talk about the pause. That is the latest development and the most urgent thing we have before us. I will share a little bit about the food security situation, which is our focus, as you know. I will update you on what we are doing, what we are asking for and where we seek your support.

Of course, we welcome this pause that we hope will kick in tomorrow at 6 a.m. local time. We are focused on leveraging this as much as we can as it comes into effect. We already have over 100 loaded trucks in Rafah that are ready to enter, and we have another 100 trucks that would be coming in over the next few days. In terms of the quota that we expect to have in the agreed volumes, we are ready to deliver. We have done the procurement and preparations already.

However, there are now three things that we are pointing to, which are very important. The first one is that we need to get the hub in Arish in northern Egypt working, not the least when it comes to prioritization. We have some staff up there, but it is not working to the level that is needed to now deliver upon this opportunity. That is an effort that needs to continue.

Second, in order to actually get these volumes in and get them verified, we believe that there needs to be more capacity. Therefore, we are insisting on opening the Kerem Shalom crossing as well, including for the capacity on verification.

Third, we need to make sure that the fuel gets in. We welcome the agreement. Fuel is critical for us to be able to distribute and deliver inside Gaza. This really needs to materialize.

Again, we are focused on making the most of this pause. There is, of course, a risk that the situation could deteriorate even further should the pause not be extended. Hence, I hope we will all be encouraging and working toward an extension of this pause in order to be able to sustain and support more civilians.

Turning to the food security situation, this was already a difficult situation before this war. More than half of the population were in need of food assistance. The general poverty rate was over 60%. Now, of course, the situation has turned disastrous. Food production has completely collapsed. Fishermen cannot access the sea. Farmers cannot access their fields. Commercial supplies are not allowed to enter. Shelves are completely empty in the stores. We estimate that the entire population of Gaza is now in need of food assistance, and that is 2.2 million people. Parents, we hear, are risking their lives to queue for hours to bring home bread to their families, but they often return empty-handed. Before the conflict, we were working with some 23 bakers to provide fresh bread. Today, not a single one of those bakeries remains operational.

As you know, 1.7 million people are displaced. Many are seeking refuge in already overcrowded shelters. Just to give you an idea, in some of the shelters where we also have our own staff, on average, there is one shower for some 700 people and a single toilet for some 150 people. It is really a dire situation at these shelters, again, where we are with our local staff. With winter now fast approaching, in these unsafe and overcrowded shelters, there is a lack of clean water, and we really see the risk for possible starvation.

We are doing whatever we can to respond. We have been doing so from when the crisis started. We have been able to reach almost 800,000 people with food assistance in these shelters and in the communities. We have also been providing bread, canned tuna and fortified date bars to people and families in these shelters.

We are looking to adjust our programs and find new ways to provide the needed assistance. To give you one example, we are now using an electronic platform that we had in place before to provide cash or voucher support. That system is now being used, instead, to provide in-kind food. These will now be able to be collected at newly established distribution sites or at these private retail shops that we have been using before, which are now empty but are being used as distribution points. By engaging directly with these local private retailers, our aim is also to keep them operational until commercial activities can resume. It will then make it much easier or quicker for these commercial activities to resume.

We will also make it possible for other actors to use this system now, including health kits and dignity kits for women and girls. We are working with UNFPA on that, as they don’t have the same capacity. As you may know, we are leading on emergency logistics for the entire UN and humanitarian system, providing logistics setup. We have now established a pipeline both via road and sea in Egypt and in Jordan. With those, we will be able to reach a million people in December, if there is access. Again, we are also able to use this platform and this pipeline for other kinds of humanitarian assistance.

In order to reach these million people that we have planned for in the next four weeks, there are three things that we have demanded over the past couple of weeks and that continue to be relevant.

The first one is increased and sustained supply corridors into Gaza. As I mentioned, we have life-saving food supplies ready to be delivered into Gaza, but in order to bring in supplies, we need increased capacity in Arish in Egypt, not least to improve prioritization so that what is being delivered is actually what is most needed on the other side of the border but also to do better palleting so that the verification can work more smoothly. We continue to believe that the Rafah crossing alone is not going to be sufficient. It won’t be possible to scale up. We really need a second border crossing, and Kerem Shalom would be the most reasonable option for that.

Second, we need support for operations inside Gaza. We need safe and free movement to assist people in need, wherever they are. We also need it for the safety of our own staff and for partners who are exhausted, as you can imagine, but still resilient and determined to deliver. Our colleagues in Gaza keep telling us that there is no safe place. As you know, 108 UNRRA staff have been killed so far, and many have been killed in the supposedly safe south, which proves that there is no safe place in Gaza. Last week, however, we managed to get an additional international colleague in to set up some mobile storage units that we now have prepared should we be able to scale up in this pause and, this morning, we added another three international staff colleagues in order to strengthen our capacity to be able to deliver in the next few days during this pause. We also need, as I said, fuel and gas for our trucks inside Gaza, and we need it for the bakeries to begin to operate again. Finally, we need connectivity. We need to contact our staff to check on their safety, but also it’s a critical element of delivering on our programs. We need that stable connectivity, and much of that also depends on fuel.

Third, we continue to need support from donors. We already have, as I heard discussed in the previous session, a global humanitarian funding shortfall, with many underfunded emergencies, so it is important that there are additional resources that come to scale up for Palestine. There are always risks, of course, when operating in a chaotic environment of active conflict, but to mitigate those risks as much as we can, we have boosted our already robust pre-war insurance mechanisms.

Canada has always been among the most generous donors to WFP across the world, but also in Palestine. With an anticipated additional CAD 5 million contributing, we will use this, for sure, in an efficient and effective way to try to alleviate some of the pressing needs. We continue to count on your support, both political and financial, to address what is indeed an unprecedented situation.

I thank you for inviting me to speak to you today.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Skau, for your comprehensive overview of the challenges that you have in Gaza’s World Food Programme.

I attended the Halifax International Security Forum last weekend. Cindy McCain, your executive director, was there, and she gave us a good indication of what a big challenge that is.

I would like to acknowledge that Senator Omidvar of Ontario has joined us.

Colleagues, we will go to questions. Again, we will have four-minute rounds. Keep your questions precise and crisp. This will allow for a more fulsome answer.

Senator Harder: Thank you for that excellent briefing. WFP is a very important organization, and your contribution is much appreciated by Canadians.

I would like you to expand on your second demand, that is to say, support for inside operations. Can you tell us how many people you have in Gaza now and what you need in terms of satisfying your ability to deliver the kind of program you anticipate to deliver? Could you expand a bit more on how you provide that security and how you interact with UNRRA?

Mr. Skau: We have active staff inside now, some 25, and by the end of the week, probably 30.

We work through a network. Basically, there are three ways. We are now providing to the shelters. These shelters are run or administered, many of them, by UNRRA because they are using UNRRA facilities. Our UNRRA partners are then helping us to distribute once we reach those shelters. We also have a couple of operating partners, U.S. NGOs that were vetted before the crisis, that we have used to do deliveries to some delivery points or other community points that are not run by UNRRA. The third, and where we hope to expand, is the network of 24 retailers. It’s basically commercial shops that, so far, have been used to provide cash or voucher support so that beneficiaries can come and collect food against vouchers. We are now directly distributing the incoming food as it enters into those shops and using the same system. Instead of buying commercially when you arrive there with your voucher, you get a box of ready-to-eat food that will last a family for two weeks.

What is critical for our operation is deconfliction, as we call it. Basically, we notify the Israeli Defence Forces of where we are moving, staying or distributing, and it is critical that the deconfliction is functioning and reliable. It had not worked last week, but we were comforted this weekend when the WHO mission going to the north was able to do so in a safe and controlled manner. The risk levels go up severely when we see that some of these notifications systems do not work.

It is really a very dire situation. What happens now is that our staff inside, our national staff, are living in the shelters, as are IDPs, and international staff needs to bring in their own food, their communications, of course, and their water to sustain themselves over a few weeks, because we also don’t know exactly when they will be able to come out. The idea has been to do a rotation after two or three weeks, but we cannot guarantee that. It is a very difficult environment, quite unprecedented, frankly.

Should this pause end —

The Chair: Thank you.

Senator Plett: Thank you, sir, for being with us.

We had a colleague ask a question in our Senate of our government leader. We didn’t get the answer we wanted, but the question was about the oversight of the aid. I think you mentioned that Canada has sent $5 million. What measures are there in place to prevent the misappropriation of either Canada’s or anybody else’s aid when you are delivering food? I know that many of us here know of different relief organizations that are very specific in delivering aid themselves as opposed to allowing others to do it. Does the World Food Programme have a similar policy so that we know there isn’t misappropriation of this aid?

Mr. Skau: We have our own staff on either side of the border doing the distribution to our distribution sites. When it comes to the shelters, as I said, we have UNRRA staff whose are administrating those. Right now, the situation is so dire that, basically, we go direct from the border to those shelters, and the handouts are done directly to those now living in those shelters.

As I said, the other way of delivering is through our vetted NGOs. They are U.S. NGOs at the moment. We are looking to see how we can expand that capacity moving forward. Those NGOs are also engaged in direct delivery to beneficiaries.

The third way is through these retailers. Those are done with digital cards. That’s actually the best way, because that will show exactly the identity of the beneficiary who has picked up their food. We then know where and when they picked it up, and we know when they come back and if it is after two weeks, which is the time that this food should have been able to last for.

We are quite clear at the moment that we have control all the way to the distribution points. The needs are so great right now that it’s not needed to do any further specific kind of targeting. We now need to do general assistance because all the IDPs, which are beyond one million right now, are food insecure. It’s not the normal targeting that we otherwise would be engaging in to identify the most vulnerable among the population. Right now, we need to address all of them.

Senator Plett: I know you’re obviously not in charge of this, but I’m sure you have some information. Clearly, I would assume that many of these people that you are taking care of would like to maybe cross the border into Egypt. What information would you have about the Rafah border crossing being closed? When could we expect that to be open on a more regular basis? It seems to be open for a day and then closed for a week. Do you have any information on that?

Mr. Skau: I don’t have any information on that, but the Egyptian authorities have been clear that they don’t have any intention of opening that border for any general flow of people out. So far, it has only been international citizens or people with dual citizenship that have been able to get out. We have colleagues with dual citizenships who have not been able to leave, and we don’t expect that to change.

Senator Plett: Your focus is entirely on helping people inside the Gaza Strip?

Mr. Skau: Yes.

Senator Plett: Thank you very much, sir.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you to you and your team for the incredible work that you are doing under obviously very difficult circumstances.

You alluded to the fact that the amount of aid that you need is not matched by the donations coming in. Would you be able to outline the factors that you think are impacting the ability to raise funds in this critical situation?

Mr. Skau: We have not been able to mobilize what we wish. We have still been able to mobilize some 50% at the moment, but not all of that has been put in the bank. One issue is commitment; another is to actually get the money in the bank.

One of the issues is probably worries around reassurance and diversions. That’s why we have been investing heavily in rigorous, robust systems for that, building on the robust systems we already had. It is also important to point out that working in the midst of conflict is a chaotic situation, and there is always risk. When it comes to food, there is not much risk in terms of dual use, if you will, in terms of any military way. We feel quite comfortable that we have the systems in place to do this in a way that ensures the integrity of our programs.

We also want to look to the region, to the Gulf, not least, for further funding. They have so far been quite generous in terms of making bilateral donations, but that is not always demand-driven. It is sometimes what is available and what is available to be shared. Hence, that’s why it has been challenging, in Arish in Egypt, to really match what is being delivered, including under the auspices of the Egyptian Red Crescent, and what is needed on the other side. The trucks that have gone in so far have not all been loaded with what is most critically needed. That’s why we would prefer funding coming to the humanitarian agencies as part of the humanitarian system rather than these bilateral donations that are difficult to administer and don’t always meet the needs required. That’s maybe an answer.

Thanks to donors like Canada, who provided flexible funding to us to front load that available funding — partly as loans, so we will have to find ways to pay them back — it has been possible to do that procurement and to be able to deliver massively should we have access in the next few weeks.

Senator Ravalia: If I could follow up, what leverage do you have in what we hope will be a pause over the next four days to ensure that some of those trucks getting in are actually taking in what is your prime aim, namely, food aid, and not necessarily some of the other trucks that are lined up with infrastructure aid, et cetera? Do you have the ability to push to ensure that we avoid mass starvation and disease?

Mr. Skau: We have some five international staff members in el-Arish working with the Egyptian Red Crescent. Partly, the problem has been lack of capacity. There is also a push from donors to have their trucks go in because this is an issue around visibility as well. We would have preferred to have more control or to have the UN have more controls so we could match what is being delivered with what is needed on the other side. That has not been 100% the case so far. That is why I raised this as a priority to make sure that we make use of this window that we hope will come tomorrow.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you so much.

Senator Coyle: Thank you very much, Mr. Skau.

You mentioned that, in terms of creating safe corridors for your staff and for vehicles to navigate through the Gaza Strip, you have been coordinating with the IDF. Do you also have any communication or coordination with Hamas itself?

Mr. Skau: No.

Senator Coyle: Is that a policy?

Mr. Skau: Humanitarians speak to whom they need in order to access the population. That has not been deemed the need in the situation at the current moment.

Senator Coyle: We’re trying to get the actual lay of the land that you are working in. Has the system that you described, which sounds really ingenious, namely, these electronic vouchers being redeemed at the commercial establishments that you are stocking with these food boxes for families, et cetera, been tested in other environments?

Mr. Skau: Not that I am aware of, to be honest. Usually, we graduate from having delivered in-kind food in more traditional ways where we have partners who deliver them at distribution sites. That can be schools or other community buildings where our beneficiaries come to collect. When the situation gets stable enough, we usually graduate to using vouchers to begin with and then cash supports directly when the markets allow for that. I’m not aware that we have been going either direction, if you will, using that system, that platform and that network to do in-kind. I wouldn’t know, but I know the discussions we have had on this system have not been based on lessons learned from anywhere else.

Senator Coyle: It would be interesting to learn from this, then.

You mentioned that with the large numbers of people being displaced, people are not fishing locally and are not able to farm locally. The food security that was already inadequate, which was supplied locally, is not there. I’m curious about the West Bank because there are lots of agricultural lands there and foodstuffs created, and some of them exported. I don’t think it’s part of the main corridors you were mentioning, but is that something that World Food Programme connects with, trying to take from one Palestinian territory to support the neighbour?

Mr. Skau: We have a big crisis in the West Bank to begin with, so we’re not looking to source from the West Bank into Gaza. We are more worried about addressing what will be a serous food insecurity situation also in the West Bank. It is basically driven for two reasons. The first is the some 200,000 people who used to work in Israel but who are now cut off and not receiving their salaries. This will have a massive impact on the economic situation in the West Bank. Movements right now are heavily restricted in the West Bank. That is also cutting off the food supply systems, including farmers who are not accessing their lands to farm in what was the harvest season for olives, which is a key product in the West Bank. We are rather seeing an increasing food insecurity situation in the West Bank in a way we have not seen before. We are looking to Jordan as a supply line, but that would only be feasible or relevant if we can open Kerem Shalom from Israel. Otherwise, there will be too many borders to cross. But if Kerem Shalom could open, then certainly Jordan would be another supply line.

Senator Coyle: Thank you.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for being here today. I think you are helping us get a better sense of what is happening on the ground, which is what I have been wondering about. It also goes to part of the question I will carry on with today.

We all know and see that starving people are desperate people who will do anything they can to save themselves and feed their families. You have talked about some of the challenges on the ground. It was only last Friday when we saw two weeks of emergency food get through to help 23,000 people, and your staff being safe. In describing this more today, you have talked about some of the things that need to happen with a sense of urgency, such as the supply operations needed for fuel and gas, more donors and this connectivity issue. That’s what you need. How are you seeing the hope and success of getting those things you need? Are there one or two that are well along the way whereby you see this pause able to create great opportunity, or are you finding that all five are still big blockers for doing the work you need to do?

Mr. Skau: Let me say up front — I should have done that before — the U.S. team has been very helpful. Of course, we work very closely with your diplomats on the ground as well. I concluded by saying not only your financial support is appreciated but also your political support. The diplomatic tool box here is important. The U.S. has been supportive and helpful in trying to reach the deals we have.

The problem we have is that all these elements hang together. Unless we manage to sort out el-Arish, we won’t be able to scale up our verification and entry into Gaza. If we enter and don’t have the capacity to deliver to distribution, then we run risks. We cannot have trucks sitting on the border. All elements are equally important. You can’t just take one or two, because they are part of a chain, if you will.

I would want to pick up what you said about how food insecurity also raises tension and frustrations. Unless we are able to deliver at the scale we are hoping to do now, it becomes very dangerous to actually deliver at all. You can’t drive into a shelter with 15,000 people and only deliver to 1,000, because you will have riots. There are threat levels on our own staff. That is why it is so important that we get to some level of reasonable scale. Of course, something is better than nothing, but frankly, when it comes to food, because it is so emotional, if you will, our experience from other crises is that we cannot go in with too small amounts because we then risk the security for our people, and we also risk stirring up riots and increasing tensions and frustrations. That’s why we are so eager to get to scale. All the components I pointed to are important to get to that scale.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.

Senator Boniface: Thank you very much for joining us, particularly when it is so late in the evening for you. Thank you for the work your people are doing on the ground. I can’t imagine how difficult it is.

My question is a follow-on from Senator Deacon. You said the number one issue was access points and corridors into Gaza. If you could get more of those, what could the potential be, assuming that all of the steps in the process would allow you to get your mission accomplished? Can you give us a little more information on that?

Mr. Skau: We have done procurements to be able to deliver to 1 million people, depending upon the scale we can reach. We have availability to do that in two or three weeks. Let’s say that all the floods open, then we can reach 1 million people. When we reach a person or family, we sustain them for two weeks. That means we can get through December with a majority of the IDPs at the moment. If you add to that UNRRA’s capacity — they also do food distribution — I think we are well covered. That’s why it is important that it can be sustained, because we cannot do that million people in five days. We can expect maybe to get to — it’s hard to estimate — but our hope is to get 200 trucks in, which would get us to maybe a third of that. That’s what we would be able to do if we had full access. That would have a major impact on the situation.

Our worry, as I said, is that if there is no extension of the pause, things can intensify following the pause, not least if the operation moves south. Right now, our only access point is Rafah. Should conflict intensify and the operation also move south close to where we now have access, we would foresee an even more dramatic and further deterioration of the humanitarian situation in the following week.

Senator Boniface: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Skau, I have a question as well. It’s about your supply and inventory. There is another war going on that seems to have been eclipsed a bit, but it is still steady. That is in Ukraine. To my knowledge, in the Middle East, most of the bread that is made comes from wheat supplied from Ukraine and Russia. The Black Sea seems to be a corridor that is holding now in terms of product. Of course, we’re into a different season as well. I would be curious as to your assessment as to the state of your inventory and security of supply, considering you’re dealing this very large crisis but not one that is exclusive, because the World Food Programme operates globally. Would you have a comment on that?

Mr. Skau: Yes. Unfortunately, last year, we procured 50% of our grain in Ukraine. Up until June this year, we had procured some 80% of our wheat from Ukraine, but when Russia stepped out of the Black Sea initiative, it has not been possible for us since then. We have gotten a few ships out, but we have not so far been able to use this new route, which is kind of a barrier route, if you will, because our insurance company and our partners are not assessing that route as safe enough so far. For this situation, we have not been able to do procurements from Ukraine. You’re right that Ukraine was ideal in the sense that it was not only a very good product at a good price, but the location was perfect for our operations in the Middle East. That was our main source for operations in Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq. It is a challenge.

The procurement we have done so far is mainly Egypt and Turkey. We also have a lot of stock in Jordan that we hoped to be able to use if we can open up this pipeline from Jordan. Mainly, Turkey and Egypt so far have been our procurement points. Those are not all grown, at least not in Egypt. But we’re doing commercial procurements there.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Coyle: Building on what you were just asking, Senator Boehm, and coming back to something you said earlier, Mr. Skau, you said the trucks are not all full of exactly what you need. Could you explain to us what is there that is not your top need, and where is that coming from? Is that something you would be able to share with us?

Mr. Skau: No. I would not be able to go into detail.

It is fair to say that it has been quite chaotic in el-Arish. There are flights. I do not want to, by any means, blame the Egyptians for this. It would have been overwhelming for any country. The security situation in the Sinai is also quite specific. The civilian capacity was not there to manage there, and it wouldn’t have been anywhere. When we were there, there were flights arriving every half-hour, basically off-loading from different parts. Since these are bilateral donations coming from countries to the Egyptian Red Crescent, it is not always best coordinated with actors on the inside who can actually make the delivery.

Ideally, as I said, it would be money rather than in-kind, and that’s why the humanitarian system was set up. It was a challenge in the ‘90s that all countries did their own support. When there was a major crisis, there was a massive challenge around coordination, so we came in agreement with the humanitarian system that we now know with OCHA at the centre and with the different funding mechanisms. Countries like Canada, and many of the European countries, such as Germany, invest in that system rather than do their bilateral, but there are many countries now who move bilaterally because of their desire to show visibility in doing something. That is causing a challenge in el-Arish, and it is then having a challenge once these trucks show up on the other side and it is not what is most critically needed.

I don’t want this to be the overriding conclusion of this meeting, but it is certainly one of the priorities that we are working on, along that line. The message is that we need to strengthen capacity in el-Arish to do prioritization with what is there, and we need to try to make sure that the supply into el‑Arish is what is most needed, and the best way to do that is to fund humanitarian agencies, whether international NGOs or the UN rather than to do in-kind donations.

Senator Coyle: Thank you.

Senator Omidvar: If this question has already been addressed previously, please let me know. I came in halfway through the testimony. I apologize. Thank you for the work you do.

My question is about your workers. We have read with dismay of many deaths in Gaza, but also about the cost of the lives of humanitarian workers themselves. Can you comment on this?

Mr. Skau: I commented briefly, saying that many of our national staff — we have not had any of our staff being killed. We have family members of staff who have been killed. Our national staff, all of them, now live in shelters, or a few of them are in our warehouses sleeping with their families on the floors of those warehouses. They are living under the same conditions, basically, as all of the other IDPs. It is impressive to see how they are stepping up and still functional in terms of doing the work. There is also an element of finding meaning in being able to assist and to do the work. They are living under the same conditions, very difficult conditions.

It has been extremely worrisome and frustrating on the occasions where we have not been able to reach them with communications, not to be able to check in on where and how they are doing. We hope that this can now improve.

We have been beginning to rent guest houses in the south, but it is very difficult to find. We have begun to move in additional international staff to also alleviate some of the pressure on the national staff inside. As I mentioned before, these staff are now moving in with big buckets of water, food and medicines. They are also taking in some medicines, frankly, to our national staff. We have colleagues who have diabetes, for example, who have not been getting their insulin over the past couple of weeks.

We are doing what we can, really. What is critical is, of course, and what I spoke of before, is deconfliction, to make sure there is deconfliction that works where they stay, where they move and where they distribute. As I said, that has not been the case before. We hope that this weekend, with the mission the WHO did up to the north, was the turning point. Certainly, it gave us some confidence that this is possible. We hope that that sets a precedent that we can rely on going forward.

Senator Omidvar: Thank you.

Mr. Skau: I should say, they are really our true heroes. You thank me for what I am doing. I think they are really the true heroes, those on the ground. We are working 24/7 to see how we can best support them.

Thank you for the time.

Senator Omidvar: Thank you. We recognize that.

The Chair: Mr. Carl Skau, the Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer of the World Food Programme of the United Nations, thank you for making time for us. We know it is after midnight where you are in Rome. We appreciate that. We appreciate the work that you and your team do. I dare say we might be asking you again some time in the future to meet with us. Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 11:30 to continue our discussion on this very important subject. Thank you very much. Good night.

(The committee adjourned.)