THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, September 18, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 4:15 p.m. [ET] to study foreign relations and international trade generally.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: My name is Peter Boehm. I’m a senator from Ontario and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
Welcome, respected colleagues. I hope you all had a restful summer; we’re back to work now.
[English]
Before we begin, I would like to ask all senators and other in‑person participants to consult the cards on the desk or on the table in front of you for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please make sure to keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. I would like to thank you all for your cooperation.
[Translation]
I would now invite the committee members present today to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba from Quebec.
Senator Housakos: Leo Housakos from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Al Zaibak: Mohammad Al Zaibak, Ontario.
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Robinson: Mary Robinson, Prince Edward Island.
Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon, Ontario.
Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle. Antigonish, Nova Scotia.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Welcome everyone who may be watching us across the country at this particular meeting.
We are meeting under our general order of reference to continue our discussion on the humanitarian situation in Gaza. To discuss the matter, we’re pleased to welcome by video conference for our first panel Lucia Elmi, Director of Emergency Operations of UNICEF coming to us from New York. You have met with us before, so thank you for being with us today. From the World Food Programme appearing from Rome, Rania Dagash-Kamara, Assistant Executive Director for Partnerships and Innovation; and from Save the Children Canada, we welcome back two witnesses who joined us last November, Dalia Al-Awqati, Head of Humanitarian Affairs, who joins us from Toronto; and in the room with us Patrick Robitaille, who is the Senior Advisor, Policy Advocacy and Government Relations.
Welcome and thank you all for being with us. We are particularly grateful to Ms. Dagash-Kamara, given the very late hour in Rome. Thank you for joining us from there.
We are now ready to hear your opening remarks. You will have five minutes each. This will be followed by questions from senators. Let us start with the witness who is furthest away, and that is Rania Dagash-Kamara, Assistant Executive Director for Partnerships and Innovation, in Rome.
Rania Dagash-Kamara, Assistant Executive Director for Partnerships and Innovation, World Food Programme: Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable senators. A good afternoon to all of you. It is wonderful to be with you. Hello to Ms. Elmi and colleagues from Save the Children Canada.
Honourable senators, since the last time that we briefed you in November 2023, the situation in Gaza has dramatically deteriorated.
I don’t think it’s a secret that there is no humanitarian safe area in Gaza today. It is no longer safe in real terms. Many lives have been lost not only to Palestinians but also from the humanitarian community. We continue to face threats and are impacted by constant evacuation orders, and I’ll come back later to what these evacuation orders mean.
The security incidents against humanitarian staff continue on a daily basis for those on the ground, and at levels we have not seen before. It is truly unprecedented.
Just this August, a total of 16 evacuation orders were issued, and nearly a quarter of a million people have been displaced. In effect, 88% of the Gaza Strip is under an evacuation order.
For the World Food Programme, or WFP, this meant that in August we were unable to reach 50% of our target. We managed to reach only 700,000 people. These evacuation orders have, in effect, significantly disrupted our distribution points, and the evacuation of the community kitchens that are in place have to close. Three of our WFP warehouses today are inaccessible as they are within these evacuation zones.
This shortfall in our deliveries is alarming, particularly so given the increasing number of people facing acute hunger and malnutrition in Gaza.
We continue to see unacceptable security incidents against WFP and the United Nations, or UN, writ large, and it has resulted in immense pressure on our staff. We have reduced our footprint in Gaza, precisely at the time when our presence is most needed. Our staff are under constant and severe pressure facing trends that are too dangerous and aggression that is unacceptable.
Honourable senators, while the situation continues to deteriorate, we are still doing what we can to respond. We continue to provide creative solutions to reach Palestinians. Since the conflict started, we’ve reached about 1.1 million people per month with food assistance in shelters and in communities. We’ve provided bread, canned tuna and fortified date bars to families in shelters.
But for the September distribution cycle, we are doing ready-to-eat rations per household in both the south and middle governorates. We are definitely facing a shortage of supplies for the south because of the lower level of deliveries, and we’ve also provided general food assistance and cash-based transfers to over 224,000 vulnerable people in Gaza and the West Bank this first week of September alone.
There are multiple approaches for us to respond to the dire needs on the ground, as I’ve just outlined. In addition to providing the in-kind food parcels, WFP-supported kitchens in north Gaza are now providing possibly the only hot meals with fresh vegetables for the first time since last month.
The bakeries that we support produce about 800,000-plus bread bundles, and I am pleased to let you know that as of August 21, the first bakery in Khan Younis began operations. That brings our total supported bakeries to about 14.
Now, the response to the needs created after the military operations in the West Bank has led WFP to start cash transfers to over 5,000 households. That’s in Jenin, in Tulkarem and Tubas, and we work in coordination with UNRWA and the Palestinian ministry of social development. So far, 55% of the people we have reached with these transfers have managed to redeem their assistance.
A new round of multi-purpose cash assistance in the Gaza Strip has benefited over 1,400 families. Some is in the form of an e-wallet, some is in physical cash, but overall, the 1.1 million people now registered through with WFP’s self-registration are starting to receive assistance again.
More broadly, WFP also provides the logistics cluster support, which, in effect, is our support to the broader humanitarian community. We’ve continued to push and support our sister agencies and partners to move about 2,500 metric tonnes of cargo and facilitated over 93 interagency convoys through the Jordanian Corridor. The quantity of cargo lifted from Erez and transported to partners is over 2,600 tonnes. It’s a lot of detail, forgive me.
The Chair: I’m sorry, Ms. Dagash-Kamara, to interrupt you. I’ve given you an extra minute already. I know you have much more to say. We do have a text of your prepared statement. With your permission, we could have that translated into French as well, because we work in both languages here, and circulate it to the committee. I think a lot of the points you’re going to make will probably come up in the Q&A session as well. Sorry about that, but we’re on a bit of a tight schedule.
I’d like to move to Lucia Elmi, Director of Emergency Programs for UNICEF, who is joining us from New York. Please go ahead.
Lucia Elmi, Director of Emergency Programs, UNICEF: Thank you, and good afternoon, colleagues and esteemed members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to speak again. The last time I briefed this committee, I was the special representative in Jerusalem, and since then I moved here and the team has continued to remain on the ground together with the other colleagues of the humanitarian community.
We often say that in Gaza there is nowhere left for the population, and this is double for children. At least 90% of the population has been forcibly displaced and many of them several times. Half of them are children.
Over 18 months of war, basic social services like electricity and running water have been decimated. Garbage has piled up. There is raw sewage in the street and unknown amounts of unexploded ordnance, or explosive remnants of war.
Yet children, as they do all over the world, continue to have the same dreams and the same needs — to go to school, to be safe, to play with their friends, to have the same rights. For months, water has been extremely scarce. Children are drinking water from unsafe sources, and parents lack the means to keep their children clean. And because of this, lice, scabies and diarrhea are rampant. We see repeated attacks on schools and hospitals, among the sick revelations the Security Council is collecting every year.
More than 645,000 students are deprived of schooling for the second consecutive year. Where children no longer attend school, they and their family look for shelter in schools, and those are repeatedly attacked with high-level civilian casualties.
Thousands of children have been killed, maimed and suffered amputations, sometimes several amputations on their small little bodies, and they will continue to be disabled for their entire lives.
There are over 17,000 children who are still unaccompanied and separated from their families. The past 11 months have shown there is nowhere safe, not even the so-called humanitarian safe zones. We are experiencing a complete disregard of humanitarian law, including attacks on aid workers, the vehicles they’re travelling in and the supply lines and warehouses.
Unfortunately, polio has returned to Gaza after many years. After multiple efforts, and thanks to our colleagues on the ground and their bravery, together with the WHO, UNRWA and UNICEF, we managed to complete the first round of three batches of the polio campaign, reaching almost 559,000 children under the age of 10. This has been unprecedented. With tactical pauses in different areas, this has been possible, showing that when there is a political will and a concerted effort by all parties to the conflict, it is possible to reach children. However, the shortage of aid entering continues. By daily volume, the amount of aid getting into Gaza has dropped by 59% since April, and April was nowhere enough, as my colleague from WFP said.
We are doing everything we can to avert a worsening humanitarian crisis. Despite many challenges and bottlenecks, we continue to provide, to the extent possible, recreational, mental health and psychosocial support to nearly 250,000 children and communities. In addition, we have provided humanitarian cash transfers to 750,000 people, medical health supplies to 250,000 people, and safe drinking water and sanitation to between 1 million and 1.5 million people every day. But it is not enough. Children in Gaza need peace now.
Food insecurity, food poverty, malnutrition continue to threaten the life of children, in particular women and pregnant women, with over 96% of the total population of Gaza facing high levels of food insecurity and 50,000 children at risk of severe acute malnutrition. Children also need aid in volume and scale in a predictable way. All possible crossings need to continue to be open and maintained open.
Ultimately, children in the region need an end to the war. We continue to call on all parties and those with influence over them to prioritize an immediate and sustained humanitarian ceasefire, the end of hostilities and the return of the hostages.
We continue to provide information on the situation of children, both in Gaza and the West Bank, and really count on your advocacy here because all possible efforts are continuing to be leveraged to bring peace back to the region. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We will now move to Save the Children Canada. We have two witnesses, and I gather you’re going to split your time, but I’m not sure who is going to go first, so we’ll call on Dalia Al‑Awqati to be followed by Patrick Robitaille. Please go ahead.
Dalia Al-Awqati, Head of Humanitarian Affairs, Save the Children Canada: Thank you for inviting us back.
It has been approximately nine months since we last addressed the Senate committee. That’s enough for a child to be conceived and carried to term, yet in Gaza we see more death than life.
Two weeks after our testimony, our colleague Sameh was killed, along with his wife, Fatima, and their four children, Mohammad, Heba, Zeina and Zein, by an Israeli air strike against his family home. Many more of Sameh’s family were killed that night.
Explosive weapons are indiscriminate in nature and children are seven times more likely to be killed by blasts than adults.
Today, the situation in Gaza is remarkably worse than the catastrophe we described in November. Systemic obstruction of aid has made it so that the Israeli siege blocks 83% of food aid reaching Gaza. The targeting of schools has left 70% damaged or destroyed, and that’s more than the number of schools in Ottawa. Attacks against health facilities and displacement shelters are countless, and every red line has been crossed.
In 11 months, thousands of children have been maimed and almost 21,000 children are missing. They are under the rubble. They are buried in unmarked graves or detained by Israel. The mental health conditions for children and their caregivers are abhorrent. Gaza has roughly the same number of children as Calgary, Montréal and Toronto combined. And 80% of the children of Gaza were experiencing mental distress prior to the start of this war.
Denial and obstruction of humanitarian aid are so systemic that our health workers manage pediatric amputees and burn patients with only breathing techniques and the equivalent of Tylenol. In Gaza, 10 children are losing a limb or more every day.
Dr. Jamal Imam from our health team says:
Imagine you are a surgeon with a patient whose limbs have been severed, who is bleeding profusely, and you’re expected to save his life with your hands tied behind your back and your eyes blindfolded.
As Save the Children, we work in the world’s largest humanitarian crises, but let me tell you what makes the situation in Gaza different.
Almost the entire population has been displaced and the so‑called evacuation orders against a besieged population continue. More than 14,100 children in Gaza have been killed and almost 1.1 million children have been starved at the fastest rate the world has ever seen. Palestinian children are the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts. Children experience abuse, ill-treatment and other practices during their detention that could amount to torture. Most importantly, the escalating hostilities against vulnerable populations are met with inadequate measures by countries with the power and the influence to slow or stop the horror.
Before I pass you over to my colleague, Mr. Robitaille, please remember that the unbelievably cruel conditions that Palestinian children are surviving, the preventable deaths that they are dying, and the grave violations that they are subjected to in this war are also a result of 17 years of blockade and decades of occupation.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Robitaille, you have about two minutes.
Patrick Robitaille, Senior Advisor, Policy Advocacy and Government Relations, Save the Children Canada: Since we last met, Canada’s position on a ceasefire has shifted and the government recently revoked some weapons permits. Save the Children has welcomed these changes, but in the light of the situation that is described to you today, the question is: Is Canada doing enough for the children in Gaza?
The answer for us is, no. No, we haven’t been doing everything within our power to stop the violence or avoid complicity.
Senators, you have the privilege of being independent and above partisan politics and to show your indignation. Again, we ask you to further press the government. First, for Canada not to be complicit and fuel the war that continues, despite our call for a ceasefire. This includes imposing an arms embargo where all arms permits are revoked. This includes no further transfer of weapons and arms components to Israel, neither nor through the countries such as the U.S.
Second, utilize all diplomatic measures available to encourage allies to do the same. We have a responsibility to stop horrors. This must respect the ruling of its international justice system. This will ensure Canadian policies are tied to the respect of these laws and to be accountable to the rights of children.
It’s in the long-term interests of Canada that the rights and laws are the same for everyone. We owe it not only to Sameh’s family but to the children all across the world. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
We will now proceed to questions by senators. I would like to point out to honourable senators that they each have a maximum of four minutes in the first round, including the question and answer.
[English]
I would ask you to be very concise in posing your questions so we can get a maximum response from our witnesses.
As usual, we will go first seen, first served in terms of questions. I have already six senators listed. We will begin with Senator Ravalia, followed by Senator Deacon.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much to all of our witnesses today for your testimony.
Mr. Robitaille, if I could start with you. To what extent can Canada enhance its work with the international community to ensure more safe humanitarian corridors in Gaza? Are there particular partners that we’re working with? Furthermore, I think we’re all alarmed by the increased rates of malnutrition, outbreaks of polio and further risks of vaccine-preventable diseases. I think any of us who have a semblance of compassion for innocent Palestinian children and women who are victims of a tragic war impacting both Israelis and Palestinians, where do we go next?
Finally, do we have any information on the health status of the Israeli hostages?
Mr. Robitaille: Thank you. I will cede to Dalia who is more into the operations for questions about the corridor.
Ms. Al-Awqati: Absolutely. So we have been working — well, the Government of Canada certainly has been working, as we understand through our conversations with them, with different countries to increase and enhance humanitarian access. But the reality is that diplomatic pressure needs to be all around and the blockages of aid that we see and the non-compliance with the humanitarian notification system are largely Israeli. In fact, they are responsible for the land, sea and air borders of Gaza, and therefore have a responsibility to ensure, based on international humanitarian law that the civilian population is not impacted — in fact, objects essential to civilian survival are maintained in this war.
What we’ve been looking for and what we continue to look for is increased pressure. Again, the use of all diplomatic measures, as we said, we do work around the world in multiple crises and we’ve seen higher levels of success in other places.
We look forward to having Canada continues to lead the way in places where they have actually led the way in terms of increasing humanitarian aid, increasing funding to humanitarian aid but also increase the access and availability of humanitarian assistance on the ground. That is in response to the first question.
Regarding the health status of Israeli children detained in Gaza, unfortunately, we don’t have that information. That information is not publicly available, nor has it been shared by the government of Israel nor the warring parties in Gaza as well. I do want to state that the unlawful detention of children is a grave violation of their rights and all children should be released.
Senator Ravalia: My second question was on polio and other preventable diseases. Do we have any mechanism for tracking these? What are we doing to ensure that the broader population get vaccinated?
Ms. Elmi: Polio, unfortunately, has been detected; the first cases after 35 years. Together with the World Health Organization, UNWRA and UNICEF, we launched a massive campaign that reached 90% of the target. That was the first round. In the next couple of weeks, the second round of vaccination will commence to extend the level of protection, but, of course, it is not enough. Until children and communities have access to adequate water, sanitation, medication, health care and health centres, it is just a temporary Band-Aid on a situation that continues to worsen. Also there is a high level of exposure to vulnerabilities such as the rainy season and floods. Gaza has always been prone to floods. And winter is coming, which will add an additional level of vulnerability. You can only imagine the kind of hygiene conditions those children and communities will be exposed to by living in tents and temporary shelters, and having to move frequently with regular evacuation orders.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you all for being here today. It’s certainly sobering but important information for us.
I want to come back to the vaccination piece again, if you don’t mind. It was hopeful and good news that vaccinations did take place for polio earlier this month.
Given the infrastructure, roads, communication, health facilities, can you tell us a little bit how this miracle was pulled off and what some of the lessons or best practices might be that other aid organizations could be learning from this as the conflict continues to drag on? Ms. Elmi, I’ll direct this question to you.
Ms. Elmi: Okay. Thank you. First of all, there is quite a network of vaccinators who have regularly been trained throughout —
Before the war, children in the West Bank and Gaza had a very high level or relatively high level of vaccination. Routine vaccinations were very high because the community never had the lack of being vaccinated. There continues to be a network of trained health workers. We also retrain, and health workers are the only service that continues to exist. The experience of that tradition has continued to be there.
It was a major logistic operation with three main UN agencies with the support of health centres in three different areas of Gaza. First the South, and then the vaccinators in the South moved to the middle area, and then to the North. It required a lot of planning and a lot of negotiations. They were like vaccination centres in the small distribution centre as in the primary health care centre or in many different locations. There were also some mobile teams that risked their life to move in different areas.
For us, what was important was the planning and the willingness to allow us to have the essential supplies at the right time. It was a lot of negotiation that allowed that to happen, and it is definitely, as I was saying, the political will to make this happen again.
Senator M. Deacon: This would be to either one of you from Save the Children Canada. Looking at the status of Palestinian children who need that extra medical care, like anywhere, the children could be diabetic, requiring insulin, some dialysis or other routine interventions. Have those types of procedures all but come to an end? Can you give us some intel on that?
Ms. Al-Awqati: The majority of non-emergency procedures have been disrupted. That is largely a result of the destruction of health facilities and hospitals where dialysis would have taken place.
The constant and consistent movement of the population means that processes and treatments have been disrupted. We know that this makes pediatric patients and adult patients for anything from cancer, kidney dialysis, more prone to kidney failure. The availability of insulin to treat diabetes is limited to non-existent. And in the face of increasing demand, our health centres and colleagues working in them tell us that over 25% of those who come in for consultations are presenting with even simpler things like skin disease.
The reality is we’re not able to get the supplies in fast enough or in an unobstructed manner, quite frankly, to be able to treat even the most basic things.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
The Chair: Senator MacDonald from Nova Scotia has joined us after the introductions. He has the next question.
Senator MacDonald: I thank the witnesses. I think we all agree, there is nothing more disturbing than innocent children being killed. I think everyone is mortified by this.
My first question is: What is the effectiveness of the interventions made in mitigating the long-term developmental and psychological impacts on children in Gaza?
Ms. Elmi: We need to remember that even before the current war, one out of three children in the Gaza Strip was in need of mental and psychosocial support. This is not the first war. A child of 15 years old in Gaza has gone through at least four major escalations in his or her life, but this one being dramatically the most severe and the longest.
There were large needs before, and now we can say that basically all of the child population — that is over a million children — will continue to be in need of specialized, psychosocial mental health support. The impact is immense, multiple trauma, and will continue to require sustained and long‑term efforts to get a sense of healing and normalcy once all this will be over.
Mr. Robitaille: We followed the mental health of the children. When Dalia was talking about 80% before October, now we can just imagine how it is. We don’t have the new data because it’s impossible to collect, but from all information, the anxiety of children is through the roof. All of the psychiatric centres that we have been operating no longer function. It is not possible to give the psychological first aid to the children. We can only imagine how traumatizing it will be for the children in the generations to come, and that’s extremely concerning. Thank you for the question.
Senator MacDonald: How do you measure the success of the programs beyond immediate relief? What strategies are in place that contribute to sustainable improvement in the children’s overall well-being and their future prospects?
The Chair: Perhaps we can direct that question to the World Food Programme representative, Ms. Dagash-Kamara?
Ms. Dagash-Kamara: I think this question should go to UNICEF because they work on both the humanitarian and the development side for children.
The Chair: I’ll accept that.
Ms. Elmi: The measure of success depends on the type of intervention. Overall, in this moment, children need a ceasefire, so this will be the main starting point.
We continue to provide water and sanitation for the children on the move, and we’re trying to organize some form of learning activities, so there are very short-term results we can measure. We have third party monitoring and indicators. We have high‑intensity, high-frequency monitoring that is monitoring the input and output, but as soon as there’s a ceasefire — and we hope it’s as soon as possible — and there is a sense of being able to restart the basic social services, like the reopening of schools and markets, we will have tangible indicators.
We can think in the short term, medium term and long term, but I think we need to be more ambitious than keeping a child alive. We can vaccinate them, and we can try to provide them with safe water if possible, but the main danger, apart from epidemics and malnutrition, is the conflict has been continued over the last eleven months.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Coyle: Thank you to our witnesses here for the work that you’re doing and for the work of your colleagues on the ground. You’ve described a hellish reality to us, even worse than last time.
My first question is for Mr. Robitaille. You expressed some support for Canada’s movement in certain areas, particularly regarding the position on a ceasefire and on the reduction in permits for weapons exports, but you also expressed some concerns that Canada hasn’t, in your mind, gone far enough in certain areas, in particular with weapons and diplomatic efforts, et cetera.
Could you go a little deeper on these two areas, particularly because you didn’t have much time? You just brushed on them lightly, so from what I understand, you’re saying we have not revoked all permits for all weapons. I’d like to know more about that and what you would like to see on the diplomatic side as well.
Mr. Robitaille: Thank you. Indeed, despite the fact that we’ve started to hear statements that some permits have been revoked, unfortunately, there are still 200 permits that are active from what I understand. We also need to ensure everything goes formally. Beyond words, we have to see it go through in terms of the regulations.
We can think that this is a small amount of arms. The arms are mostly parts, parts of a circuit board, radar or cameras, and much of the time, they go to the U.S. where it’s difficult to track if they go in a fighter jet or to different pieces, but we know this is cumulative as well. The U.K. and Germany have also started to revoke some permits, and overall, we have to stop fuelling this war.
We, as well as the General Assembly of the United Nations and even the United Nations Security Council, are calling for a ceasefire at all levels, and we have to see action. The way a ceasefire can be actioned, beyond words, is to take those kinds of actions.
We know by working with our counterparts that a lot is happening and they are working hard. The question is how hard? At some point, we need to reframe our policies in Canada to be on the side of law. We can’t just count who our friends and allies are, but we must have the justice system to be able to provide the guidance that we’re seeking.
This is the credibility of Canada. This is the credibility of a justice system that we’ve encouraged for all these years, and that’s why the long term is important. We need to stop the whole system from collapsing as it seems to be right now because of this conflict. Thank you.
The Chair: Actually, you don’t. Sorry.
I would just add to that, we are focused here more on the humanitarian side but that question would be very well posed to the Government Representative in the next panel. Just a suggestion.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: My question is for Ms. Elmi, but any of the other witnesses can answer it, as I think it’s for everyone who works in the humanitarian field.
Since the start of this hellish humanitarian crisis, seriously injured Gazans have been evacuated to third countries, including Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, France, Spain, Turkey, Jordan, Italy, Belgium and Norway. Doha received 470 wounded for high-level care. Are you calling for this type of initiative to be strengthened or expanded? If so, should Canada also be part of it?
Ms. Elmi: Thank you for the question. Some children were evacuated with the support of the World Health Organization and all the partners. It’s important to know that, at the start of the crisis, with the department of social affairs and the department of health in Ramallah, we provided technical support for the development of child protection guidelines. This means that, even when children are evacuated for medical reasons, the family follows them. We try not to separate families and we make sure that follow-up occurs; not just medical follow-up, but also follow-up by social services to reunite them with the family and the communities.
It’s important, of course, to safeguard the integrity of the family. However, the most important thing is to re-establish the basic social health system in Gaza, as that is really the first point of contact for the children and the medical follow-up with the communities.
Medical precautions are important because there are no other alternatives, but the most important thing is to reach a ceasefire and re-establish the health system in Gaza.
Senator Gerba: Does anyone else wish to comment?
Do you expect anything specific from Canada, other than what we all want, which is a ceasefire, as you mentioned?
Ms. Elmi: We expect Canada to continue to support the health system in Gaza. At community level, all the service providers need long-term ad hoc support. Of course, we must try to continue to see if there are spaces reserved for services aimed at children who can be evacuated, while knowing that the most important protection is for them to stay with their families.
Senator Gerba: Thank you. Do I still have time for questions?
The Chair: Unfortunately not.
[English]
Senator Woo: Thank you, witnesses. Mr. Robitaille, you made a reference to violations of international humanitarian law, in other words, war crimes, right?
You talked about how Canada should avoid complicity in the violations of international humanitarian law. Are you using “complicity” in a loose sense in that we could be in the wrong company? Or are you using it in a strict legal sense where we can actually be found complicit in violations of war crimes in Gaza?
Mr. Robitaille: We are using this as it is a possibility, something that we and legal entities have to look at. So that’s for the legalities. And countries that are contributing to fuelling this war or are just letting it happen through inaction at times, this is also where complicity and accountability lies. By taking sides and having a different response to different crises for political and other reasons, that’s also where we see complicity.
Senator Woo: It’s a sad commentary on our country that it would take the possibility of complicity to shake us into action. I would like you to tell us more about the case where there might be complicity, and, of course, this will be subject to a legal debate. But also, even if there isn’t complicity, and it surely should not have to come to that for us to take action, what other cases can be made to shake our country out of the complacency and the stupor we are in when we hear this kind of testimony?
Mr. Robitaille: Yes, thank you. I will not be the legal expert to come to this. When I’m talking about reframing our foreign policy when it comes to a situation like that, that’s where I think that’s indeed our indignation. Being senators, independent, and being above the tradeoffs that we have to do, that’s where principles and values are that Canada can rely on for its foreign policy. We hear it through words, but we have to see it in the votes that we are taking and the firm actions that we are doing as well in our laws and our policies.
Senator Boniface: My question will be brief as it was covered by some of the other senators, so I’m going to flip it a little. As organizations, how are you able, in such dire circumstances, to protect the well-being of your own people, and I mean both physically and mentally? I can’t imagine, given the circumstances here and how unprecedented it is for you. I would be interested in how you’re protecting that in the long run.
The Chair: Do you want to direct that?
Senator Boniface: Very briefly from each of them.
The Chair: Let’s start with our World Food Programme witness, Rania Dagash-Kamara, who hasn’t had too many questions directed to her, if that’s all right.
Ms. Dagash-Kamara: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I honestly think the entire conversation benefits and is reflective of all the humanitarian sectors, so again, I’m grateful to my colleagues.
Senator, we have about 200 staff in the Palestinian territories, and we have 47 internationals and about 150 nationals. Ten days ago our guesthouse was hit, and we had to pull about 12 of our staff out to Amman precisely for what you said, for psychosocial support. Our executive director flew in to see them and to check in on them. What was most saddening and heartening at the same time is that right after seeing the executive director who offered the affected staff all the counselling and support required, their number one ask was, “When can we go back?” Because I think people in the sector are in it for the right reasons, and I think they’ve seen horrors in Gaza that they feel they have to be there to respond to. We do our best to buttress and provide counselling support, to extract them when we can, but it isn’t straightforward or easy. I think collectively our organizations, through a broader umbrella and through individual support, stand ready and do so consistently.
Ms. Elmi, you were there for a very long time at the heart of the crisis, and I think you can speak to this even more directly.
Ms. Elmi: Thank you, Ms. Dagash-Kamara. Yes, absolutely, the colleagues are extremely committed, and there is a strong sense of solidarity and support by all levels of the organization. Every time I’m in contact with them, and I see staff, particularly those in northern Gaza, being out and about and continuing to be extremely committed. It is really honourable of them.
But also to say it is not unprecedented in the way that, unfortunately, because of the scale and the complexity, our colleagues, particularly national staff in Haiti, Sudan and Yemen, are faced with those kinds of situations themselves and their families and their communities. We’re there to stay and deliver. Thanks to your support, we continue to do so. Your advocacy and support in terms of respect of the basic law of international humanitarian law are critical and important in Gaza and now in the West Bank — all over the world really — because there’s been a total disrespect of the protections for humanitarian workers on the ground.
Ms. Al-Awqati: As a non-governmental, non-profit organization, we work within a slightly different risk framework than our colleagues in the UN do. We are taking all types of risks. We’re taking risks in Gaza we’ve never taken anywhere else, and we are taking it with our national staff and our Palestinian colleagues. They are taking it and so are our international staff. The only thing we can do is try to make sure they have food at a frequency that is needed. This is how dire the situation is. We have to worry about whether our staff can eat or not, or have clean water. When displacement orders come in, our staff, our Palestinian colleagues, will need a few days to just get their bearings again. We house our teams largely together, and our international staff are on approximately two-month rotations. No departure is certain, no entry is certain, no departure is certain for international staff, but let me tell you, that is nothing in comparison to what Palestinians experience. That humanitarian imperative that Ms. Dagash-Kamara and Ms. Elmi spoke about is what drives the response today. It’s the knowledge that you have to do anything and everything that you can because the conditions are just so abhorrent.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you to all witnesses for attending in person and online.
On September 9, 2024, Israeli air strikes hit an Israeli-designated humanitarian zone in al-Mawasi south of Gaza, in which tens of thousands of displaced Palestinians had settled. As of the next day, September 10, these strikes were reported to have killed 19 Palestinian people and injured 60 others. The Israel Defense Forces, or IDF, claimed, once again, that it had struck a Hamas command and control centre operating in a humanitarian zone, which makes one wonder about how many thousands of Hamas command and control centres existed in Gaza.
Have any of your organizations seen or received any evidence of Hamas operating in humanitarian-designated zones?
Ms. Dagash-Kamara: We’re not in the business of designating nor qualifying who’s operating where. We’re in the business of responding to humanitarian needs. That is what we do, and that is what we’re there to do. We assess needs, and we respond.
I think our asks of you have been quite consistent today. We need you to have a clearer, strong, collective voice so the rules of engagement in this conflict are respected. We need you also to reinforce the UN Secretary-General who calls on Israeli authorities to facilitate access for our operations. We need to access Gaza from every single entry point possible. Finally, we need you to resource us to be able to reach those who are hurt, hungry, in need and need our support. Thank you.
Ms. Elmi: To add to a very good answer from Ms. Dagash-Kamara, the humanitarian community raised a lot of concern starting from last year when there were these designations of safe areas. Those are not following International humanitarian law, or IHL, principles. They are not designated by the UN, and it is not something that the UN or the humanitarian community has designated as a safe area. They were unilaterally designated a safe area, but there is no safe space in Gaza. Everywhere has been a very high risk for all the population, all civilians in Gaza.
We need to make sure we go back to the IHL principles that there is a safe area for humanitarian work and that combatants respect this.
Ms. Al-Awqati: For the mental health, psychosocial services, food assistance and health assistance that we provide we operate in humanitarian spaces. We operate in spaces where we see a very overwhelmed population and even more overwhelmed humanitarian aid workers. That is what is evident to us each and every day.
To add to what my colleagues have said, the presence of combatants does not negate the protections for vulnerable populations and civilians. So whether it’s in so-called humanitarian zones or health facilities, there are protections to civilian populations that are provided through international humanitarian law and the Geneva Conventions. This is what we’re trying to drive home. Those protections need to be in place so that we can avoid the horrific massacres that we have been seeing.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I’m going to ask the last question. It is a variant on what I asked the last time you were with us.
You represent organizations that have global reach in terms of your operations and your activities — two United Nations specialized agencies and one volunteer, non-profit organization coming out of Canada.
No one really thought that this particular humanitarian crisis would be so protracted and so awful. How have you adjusted your own operations? There are other places in the world that require humanitarian assistance, certainly in Africa and if we’re thinking about Sudan. We’ve looked at Sudan in this committee, and we will again.
How do you adjust to that? You want more voluntary contributions. Perhaps the regular contributions that countries provide are not enough. Yet, you have this other mandate as well.
It’s a bit of an open-ended question, but I would like a quick response from all of you to that, perhaps starting with Ms. Elmi.
Ms. Elmi: We have what we call corporate activation procedures that apply to all of our resources that are activated where there is a crisis that is the scope of magnitude like the one of Gaza. At this time, we have three running simultaneously. It is Gaza, Haiti and Sudan, plus mpox. We really make sure we have focused teams, supporting continuously, and trying to ensure that the whole organization is mobilized.
We are set up in this way. We will continue to ensure that we cover all of the major crises according to the criteria that the activation follows. But, definitely, resources are in dire need. Most of the crises that I’ve quoted, including Palestine at the moment, including Gaza, are heavily underfunded. Resources are important, as important as your focus and your support.
Ms. Dagash-Kamara: I reinforce what Ms. Elmi said.
Mr. Chair, for the crisis response, what we’re very good at is pre-positioning the required resources in the region, and we are extremely well stocked with food across the region. The minute there is a ceasefire, we are able to expand and grow, also a corporate response for us in Gaza, and it is discussed on a daily basis in WFP. But we are also aligning and starting to prepare for what would come after once there is a ceasefire, because life saving is critical, but so is our support for creating food systems, opening markets again, getting local production resumed. We stand ready to do all of this once we are able to and we can go beyond the life saving, which we expect we will need for a long time.
Canada has been extremely consistent and generous with us and for that we are extremely grateful, but I will impress on you that more is needed because the number of crises across the world today for us is at a figure that is unprecedented. It has almost doubled in the last five years, and the level of resources hasn’t caught up with it. So we do seek additional resources for Gaza and the Palestinian operation at large. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Robitaille: Thank you very much for this question. Indeed, we wouldn’t have thought that after almost a year now that we would be still focusing on that. It’s a great reminder of the Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or DRC. We have the same type of response. That just continues. The world continues to turn.
We would love to talk more about climate change and how it impacts the realities of children across the world, the young girls that need education in time of crisis.
The media will have a hard time to spend on many crises at the same time. Our attention needs to go to what makes most sense.
Right now, we are blocked. We cannot respond in Gaza, and we cannot guarantee that international order will continue from a humanitarian front without having some results on that. This is why we do insist on this crisis, but it is a stark reminder of the needs all over the world. Thank you.
The Chair: I want to thank, on behalf of the committee, all of our witnesses for being here. This has been a very informative, sobering, if not depressing, session, if I might say. The last time we met, we said we were going to call you back again. I dare say we might be in a situation, in a few months’ time as well, where we will wish to hear from you. Hopefully, there will be a ceasefire by then, and you will be looking at operations in a different sort of way.
I would like to thank Lucia Elmi from UNICEF; Rania Dagash-Kamara from the World Food Programme, particularly with you being in Rome at such a late hour — we very much appreciate that; Dalia Al-Awqati, Head of Humanitarian Affairs of Save the Children Canada; and Patrick Robitaille, who watches us very closely because he is the Senior Advisor, Policy and Government Relations, in the room here with us today. Thank you.
Colleagues, we’ll now move to our second panel. We’re pleased to welcome from Global Affairs Canada, Alexandre Lévêque, Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Middle East and Arctic, who has been a frequent visitor here in several incarnations. Good to see you again. With him is Robert Brookfield, Director General, Strategic Export Controls Bureau, International Security and Political Affairs Branch, also from Global Affairs Canada. We are requesting a five-minute statement from Alexandre Lévêque. You have the floor, sir.
Alexandre Lévêque, Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Middle East and Arctic, Global Affairs Canada: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Honourable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me back.
Thank you for the invitation to provide an update on the Israel-Hamas conflict and the situation in Gaza. I will focus my remarks today on how the conflict is evolving and Canada’s response.
[Translation]
It is important to reiterate that, from the very beginning of the crisis, Canada has unequivocally condemned the terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas on October 7, almost a year ago. Nothing can justify these acts of terror, nor the murder, mutilation, sexual violence and kidnapping of civilians. Canada continues to call for the immediate release of those held hostage and is demanding that the hostages and all civilians be treated humanely, in accordance with international law. Following the horrific attacks of October 7, 2023, Canada, along with like-minded partners, announced several rounds of autonomous sanctions against Hamas and its affiliates.
Canada also supports Israel’s right to defend itself, in accordance with international law. In defending itself, Israel is expected to comply with applicable international humanitarian law. We strongly emphasize the obligation of all parties to take all possible precautions to minimize civilian casualties.
[English]
Active fighting between Israel and Hamas remains underway within Gaza, where the ever-worsening humanitarian situation continues to be a major concern for the Government of Canada.
Despite considerable contributions from Canada and other international partners, the humanitarian situation in Gaza remains dire. The United Nations estimates that more than 1.9 million Palestinians in Gaza — 90% of the population — have been displaced from their homes since October 7 at least once. It is estimated that more than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, a large portion of whom are civilians, including, of course, many children. An estimated 96% of Gazans face acute food insecurity, and half of all essential medicine is not available.
The need for consistent humanitarian assistance at scale in Gaza remains critically urgent, though significant challenges with aid access continue to persist. One small positive development: We were pleased by the successful conclusion of Gaza’s polio vaccination campaign, ended on September 13, and achieved its target of vaccinating 90% of Gaza’s children under 10.
[Translation]
To date, Canada has announced $165 million in international assistance to meet the urgent needs of vulnerable civilians arising from this crisis. Canada is working with trusted humanitarian partners and providing life-saving assistance to civilians in the form of food, water, medical supplies and shelter, as well as emergency medical response and protection services.
[English]
The security situation in the West Bank has also deteriorated since Hamas’ terrorist attacks on October 7 due to the continued clashes between Israel Defense Forces, or IDF, and militant groups as well as increased extremist settler violence. Canada continues to condemn extremist settler violence, and we call on the Israeli authorities to protect civilians and ensure accountability for perpetrators. Canada has imposed multiple rounds of sanctions on perpetrators of extremist settler violence against Palestinian civilians in the West Bank.
[Translation]
With regard to the wider region, we are concerned about actions along the blue line between Hezbollah and Israel. We call for de-escalation to reduce the threat of a full-scale conflict. We expect all parties to the conflict to respect UN Security Council Resolution 1701.
An immediate ceasefire is urgently needed. The hostages must be released. Rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian aid must be provided to civilians. Israel must refrain from conducting military operations in designated humanitarian zones, where civilians have been instructed to seek shelter. Canada regularly stresses these points at all levels.
[English]
Canada stands firmly with the Israeli and Palestinian peoples in their right to live in peace, security, with dignity and without fear. We will continue to support a two-state solution as the longstanding internationally agreed means to achieve this outcome.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We’ll start with questions. Senators, you know the routine, it’s four minutes each so keep your preambles short, if you can. We’ll start with Senator M. Deacon.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you both for being here. I hope I can squeeze in a question for both of you.
Throughout this conflict, we have seen here on video and in other evidence the abuse at the hands of the IDF soldiers — indiscriminately firing into crowds or buildings, attacking aid convoys, hospitals. We have heard of IDF soldiers standing back or even supporting settler violence in the West Bank. It happens in conflict, it’s not special to the IDF and usually a country that we have some kind of a relationship with does an investigation and gives us some feedback. I’m wondering if there is a mechanism by which GAC follows up on these investigations, particularly given what you said in your closing sentence there.
Mr. Lévêque: Thank you, senator for the question. You have listed a number of either anecdotal or documented events that are of a high preoccupation to us. Just as one needs to be careful to make a generalization of a few practices that have been observed, one must also demand accountability. What I can say is that, absolutely, through our regular engagements, particularly from our embassy in Tel Aviv that has frequent interactions with all parts of the Israeli government and system, these questions are asked on a regular basis.
We already know the few investigations internal to the IDF, or the Israel Defense Forces, or other systems of the criminal justice system in Israel that have pursued some of these allegations, but the pressure must remain. We have high expectations from a government that is democratically elected and has strong institutions that these will be fully investigated when there are occurrences and allegations. Canada is among the voices that continually ask for reports and updates on this.
Senator M. Deacon: I will ask another question. This concerns the recently blocked sale of Canadian ammunition to the U.S. which were bound for Israel for use by the IDF. There is concern that this might violate the 1956 Defence Production Sharing Agreement with the U.S., but we’ve also heard that by selling any weapons to anyone that could be used by a country committing war crimes, we are in violation of the other Arms Trade Treaty, which we joined in 2019. How is the government balancing these two things?
Robert Brookfield, Director General, Strategic Export Controls Bureau, International Security and Political Affairs Branch, Global Affairs Canada: Thank you. Let me first clarify that the report is about a potential order in 2026 for shipment, so it is a bit speculative from that perspective. Canada and the United States have a strong and integrated defence industry. They’ve been doing that for a long time, about seven decades. The partnership is effective and beneficial for both sides and for shared security concerns.
There has not been any change to Canada’s existing policy with respect to export controls to the United States. We have existing policies and mechanisms in place, and those, we would take the view, respect the Arms Trade Treaty requirements to make sure there is no violation of the various sub elements of it. The fact is it is required under both the Arms Trade Treaty implementation act and the Export and Import Permits Act that it amended. So we are in touch with the company. You’re probably aware that Minister Joly has made clear the government’s perspective on that shipment, and we’ll go from there.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Senator Coyle: Thank you to our witnesses for being with us. I’m going to follow up along the same line of questioning, Mr. Brookfield, probably, for you. We just had witnesses, as you probably were listening in, some from Save the Children Canada, for instance, who were expressing concern about Canada exporting components of military equipment or weapons that the Israel Defense Force could be using at this moment to attack civilians in Gaza.
Could you tell us, if you have a sense, of what is actually going on? What is being exported from Canada, if anything, either directly or indirectly, to Israel for use in this war?
Mr. Brookfield: First, I can say that Minister Joly has been clear that since January 8 of this year, there have been no new permits to our exports of military goods to Israel.
The other place has asked for more details, and we have been providing those. In fact, tranches, the first initial one in March which related to permits issued after October 7 of last year and, since then, all valid permits. Those are available on the website of the other place where you can see the whole list of information. It’s quite arduous to extricate in a way that’s intelligible, but if you look at it — people can make their own judgments about it — you will see some of those are for relatively basic bare circuit boards, as they’re called, and I’m not sure the details of the technicalities, but the sort of the green things you find in your computer, sort of specialized. There are a number of things being exported to Israel because they’re being repaired there and coming back to Canada or being used in parts elsewhere.
There has been no lethal equipment exported from Canada, no valid certificates, permits in place now. In fact, Canada has never, to our information, exported any major military systems to Israel as far back as our records go to 1991.
Senator Coyle: And components?
Mr. Brookfield: If you look at the list, again, you can make your own judgments. For example, one item that springs to mind that is fairly large relates to radar systems for naval purposes. But one of those big items is actually Canadian. So it’s going there to be repaired in Israel and coming back. There are a number of things related to that.
There could be issues related to defence issues to allow Israel to defend itself. Minister Joly has been clear that she supports Israel having the right to defend itself. The devil is in the details. She has indicated that she suspended approximately 30 permits already that were issued and valid as of this year but that have raised some concerns, and we are talking with companies about the details of those particular permits.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: My question is more about immigration. I don’t know if I’ll be able to get any figures because a report on September 12 on the Global News channel indicated that about 300 Palestinian and Gazan refugees had been accepted in Canada, out of a total of several thousand applications received.
The same report also claimed that the refugees who were taken in have been unable to access humanitarian aid, unlike others, such as Ukrainians, who would receive around $3,000 per adult.
Could you confirm these Global News figures for us? If this is the case, what is the actual support that Gazans receive on arrival, and is there a difference in treatment compared with other refugees?
I don’t know if I’m talking to the right people.
Mr. Lévêque: Thank you, Senator.
I would like to be able to give you an answer to that question, but unfortunately, that is a matter for my colleagues at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, IRCC. So I don’t have that information; it’s not part of my responsibilities and expertise. I could, however, speak to them and ask for a written response.
What I can tell you in general is that you have probably been following this issue over the last few months, especially the months following the attack. Canada set up programs to help Canadians and the immediate families of Canadians who were inside Gaza…. We worked with partners to facilitate their evacuation. For the non-Canadians associated with them, who were part of Canadians’ extended family, IRCC, the Department of Immigration, set up a number of programs to help them relocate and come to Canada.
I can give you an overview of the information, since my colleagues at the Department of Immigration are the ones with the details, especially in terms of the assistance that would have been provided to these people once they arrived in Canada.
Senator Gerba: The United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, UNCTAD, has warned of economic devastation potentially occurring on a staggering scale in Gaza, where rebuilding will cost tens of billions of dollars, according to a report released on Thursday, September 12. How is Canada involved in the rebuilding efforts? We still have to hope that there will be a ceasefire one day, when Gaza will have to be rebuilt.
Mr. Lévêque: We are in agreement when it comes to the devastation you refer to and the figures you mention. We fully realize the scale of the task.
Unfortunately, we have not yet reached the point where concrete rebuilding efforts can begin, in the sense that we would first need a ceasefire and then a promise of stability so that the destruction would not resume immediately.
That said, I can assure you that a number of partners, including Canada, are already thinking about the so-called “day after”. It’s an expression that carries some weight. It means thinking about how we are going to coordinate our efforts once stability has returned and once there is a path that promises better days, a path toward political dialogue between the Israeli government and the Palestinian parties. This will attract investors and countries that want to get involved in rebuilding. Canada is already involved in these very preliminary conversations.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Ravalia: Thank you once again for being here. My question is for Mr. Lévêque.
Given the significant deterioration of the humanitarian situation on the ground, what would you consider to be the major impediments to a ceasefire at the moment? We’ve seen numerous visits by Secretary Blinken, shuttling through the region. Historically, interlocutors, including Qatar and Egypt, have been very involved, and there have been times when I think we’ve all been hopeful that, oh, my goodness, we’re very close to that point and then things escalate again.
To what extent is Canada involved in these discussions, and how do you envisage this playing out?
Mr. Lévêque: Thank you, senator. That is really the million-dollar question that we all wish to be resolved quickly right now.
As you’ve alluded to, a number of countries — and it’s a very small number of countries, for obvious reasons — negotiations of this type must be held among the smallest number of countries as possible, evolving through multiple rounds. The United States has been central to this; Egypt, of course, as an immediate neighbour; Qatar, as a trusted interlocutor on both sides; and the two main parties in this case, Israel and Hamas.
The negotiations continue, and that is the encouraging part. No one has given up yet but gaps remain. I would direct you back to a United Nations Security Council resolution that was adopted in June — I want to say first half of June — that outlined the three main phases of what this proposal for a ceasefire and the release of hostages would look like. It was brought forward by the United States and endorsed by the Security Council of the United Nations, which I will point out is rather rare these days, that there is unanimity on anything in the Security Council. So it reflected the vast support that the international community lent to this.
The gaps remain, principally on how to secure the very important Philadelphi corridor, which is the line that separates Egyptian Sinai and the Gaza Strip itself. Canada is not directly involved in these talks. We contribute our idea and suggestions through interlocutors and through the negotiators themselves, but there remains a gap.
You can look at it from a very technical point of view. We know that there are kilometres and kilometres of tunnels that have gone under the Philadelphi corridor that have contributed to the arming of Hamas. So there is a lot of skepticism as to what reopening that area could do. At the same time, there is a border there between Egypt and Gaza, and then, of course, Israel on the other side. So all parties are still trying to figure out how to negotiate the security governance that would allow for a withdrawal of the IDF from Gaza. Once that happens, once that is in place and there are security assurances that all parties are comfortable with, then the floodgates can open on humanitarian assistance.
That’s the sequencing. All we can do is remain persistent in pushing these negotiations forward.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you to the witnesses. I want to pick up on Senator Coyle’s questions about the embargo.
The minister recently announced that there are 30 suspended permits, but we have over 200. Since the government supports Israel’s right to defend itself, why suspend any permits after many months of continual conflict? I’m curious as to what criteria are being used. Could you expand on what criteria is being used to suspend certain types of permits as opposed to allowing others? Could you put more information on that?
Mr. Brookfield: At this point, we are in discussions with the companies involved regarding some of the details, so I wouldn’t want to get into potentially commercial or other confidential information about the specific issues, but I think Minister Joly has been clear that her motivation, in general terms, is not to support exports that would be used by the Israel Defense Forces or others in the conflict in Gaza.
That’s part of an iterative process, I would say, and is ongoing thinking about whether the ones that have been selected are appropriate and whether there are others that perhaps should be looked at.
Senator MacDonald: How is our response compared with that of the Americans in terms of what they permit and what they don’t permit?
Mr. Brookfield: I don’t have a comparative chart available right now. We have been looking at what other allies are doing, notably the United Kingdom, where there has been a recent announcement where they have suspended some ongoing permits and, I think, also suspended some past permits.
I would say that allies are all in general agreement with wanting to support Israel’s right to defend itself and prevent abuses in Gaza and elsewhere, but the individual way they apply that will depend on their systems and also on their judgments about the particular situation, also the way that their supply chains work. The Canadian supply chain with the Israeli producers will be slightly different, presumably, than the United States and, certainly, the Europeans.
Senator MacDonald: Reading up on the American response, they seem to be mostly concerned with large, substantial weaponry that can do a lot of collateral damage. Does that seem to be the approach of most of the allies in terms of the weaponry they’re providing?
Mr. Brookfield: Again, I don’t want to speculate improperly. My understanding is that the United Kingdom, for example, was looking at parts for certain equipment. That’s one of the things that we would be looking at, what the particular equipment would be used in. Notably, will it be used in Israel?
Many of the 200 permits that are at issue, that have been disclosed already and that you referred to, are not for use in Israel. They’re for repairs that will come back to Canada, or they’re for use in equipment that will then be sold elsewhere including to NATO allies. That’s a bit of a challenge in calculating what to do. And we are in a different situation than the United States, obviously, in that we don’t sell those sorts of things to Israel.
Mr. Lévêque: I have one additional point to the senator who referred to an arms embargo.
For the record, I wanted to clarify that the government’s position is that this is not an actual embargo but a select suspension of a number of permits. I understand it might be semantics, but there has been a lot of semantics, so I wanted to help clarify the government’s position.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Lévêque.
On May 9, 2024, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution that as of September 10, 2024, Palestine’s right at the United Nations will be upgraded to an observer status. By its term, it determined that the state of Palestine is qualified for membership in the United Nations in accordance with Article 4 of the Charter of the United Nations and should therefore be admitted to membership in the organization. The General Assembly adopted the resolution titled Admission of new Members to the United Nations by a recorded vote of 143 in favour, 9 against and 25 abstentions, including Canada.
Considering Canada’s commitment to a two-state solution with Israelis and Palestinians living side by side in peace and security, how should we recalibrate our diplomatic efforts in light of the current situation in Gaza, and what was the rationale for Canada to abstain from voting in favour of that resolution? We seem to be contradicting ourselves. On one hand, we support the creation of a two-state solution. On the other hand, we deny Palestine’s right to become even an observer at the United Nations.
Mr. Lévêque: Thank you for the question, senator. This is an important point and one that merits clarification, so I will do my best to do just that.
I absolutely stand by the statement I made earlier that the government believes the best way forward out of the crisis, and the most promising future, is a two-state solution, the creation of two states living side by side, everything I said.
The diplomatic position has evolved and is evolving. Some countries have already recognized an independent Palestine. Canada and other countries have not done so for the reason that there’s the need to negotiate, to see this as a part of a negotiation package, for what is commonly referred to as final status issues, where there’s the status of Jerusalem, the final return of refugees and, of course, Palestinian status. Historically, it has been Canada’s position to allow for the parties to negotiate and to agree on all these elements so that statehood could be granted at the end.
The shift in recent months in that position — and it has been declared as such — is that Canada is prepared to recognize a Palestinian state at a time that is most conducive to lasting peace, not necessarily where the last step along the path is achieving a two-state solution.
There is already movement there, but right now, there is no path to peace. There is no dialogue or political mechanism in place to pursue this, but the government keeps observing or studying this, and again, the shift is that this recognition of statehood will not necessarily and strictly or uniquely come at the very end of the process. It could happen at any point when such a political path has been identified and negotiated.
Senator Woo: My question is about what appears to be a contradiction. On the one hand, we support Israel’s right to defend itself. On the other hand, we have a suspension of the export of certain military items. Presumably, we are suspending the export of certain military items because we don’t want them to be used in actions that could result in war crimes, in violation of international humanitarian law and which could bounce back on us. Is that a fair interpretation? Why else would we be stopping these exports if we defend Israel’s right to defend itself?
Mr. Lévêque: I would say, senator, this is done out of an abundance of caution and scrutiny, not because a firm conclusion has been reached over the —
Senator Woo: So there is a possibility that it could be used in ways that are deemed to be war crimes and that will bounce back on Canada and create some complicity. Is that one of the pathways that you’re thinking about?
Mr. Lévêque: That is the very reason for the existence of our arms-export control regime, to always ensure that whatever export Canadian industry contributes to does not end up adversely impacting our interests. And our interest is that innocent civilians not be the victims of armaments that could come from Canadian sources.
Senator Woo: And that we are not found complicit at this time in these kinds of atrocities.
Mr. Brookfield: War crimes are obviously one of the considerations, and the Arms Trade Treaty would require that, but other considerations would play into whether export permits are allowed. For example, we would not want to export it to an enemy that might attack our troops even there is no civilian —
Senator Woo: Is that relevant in this case?
Mr. Brookfield: I’m just making the point that in general, export permits are not issued only because of potential risks to civilians.
Senator Woo: This is clearly not relevant because we support Israel’s right to defend itself, so it is a non sequitur from that point of view. Presumably, that means that other countries that are exporting certain types of arms are exposing themselves to the potential risk that we have identified and they could be found complicit in war crimes.
Mr. Lévêque: You’re asking me to speculate about how other countries —
Senator Woo: With the logic that we have established, we have stopped certain export of military items because there is this hypothetical risk, an abundance of caution, as you put it, but that means that other countries that might be exporting similar types of arms and matériel for warfare are exposing them to that kind of risk. They may judge it differently, but that’s the implication I draw from our actions. You don’t have to respond to that.
I’m really glad we’re thinking about the issue of our complicity, or potential complicity, in war crimes because it seemed like we weren’t thinking about that before. I’m glad we’re doing everything we can to protect ourselves. It’s kind of a sad reason for taking action, but I’ll take what we can get.
What else are we thinking about in terms of protecting ourselves from the horrendous accusation and possible finding that we are complicit in the deaths of — I can’t remember the number of children who have died. Somebody can help me — tens of thousands in Gaza? What else are we thinking about in terms of how we can protect ourselves from being complicit in these crimes apart from the suspension of permits?
The Chair: You have a minute for that, please.
Mr. Lévêque: That’s a very big and existential question, senator. I’m not sure —
Senator Woo: It’s existential for the people in Gaza, absolutely.
Mr. Lévêque: You’re absolutely right. I can’t, off the top of my head, provide an answer that would be exhaustive, or even pretend to be, on how we’re protecting ourselves against this.
What I would say is that rather than thinking about how to protect ourselves, we are thinking about ways of protecting civilians and that includes all the actions and pronouncements that have been made to date as the conflict evolves to point in that direction.
Senator Woo: How is that going?
Mr. Lévêque: Pardon me?
Senator Woo: How is that going, protecting civilians?
Mr. Lévêque: I’m not sure how to answer that question.
Senator Woo: That’s okay. No need to answer.
The Chair: We’re at the end. Thank you for that. Continuing with easy questions, I’m going to ask two of them.
My first question is: There is a lot going on behind the scenes in terms of third-party involvement and perhaps Track Two diplomacy. We don’t know about that. To what extent, Mr. Lévêque, can you tell us how plugged in Canada might be to that? Are you being informed? Do you know?
The Americans are doing a lot. Some other countries are as well. This has always been the case, but there are attempts being made to come to some sort of solution, certainly a ceasefire, but even beyond. That’s my first point.
Mr. Lévêque: There are several tracks of negotiations, preparatory talks and reflections which are taking place. The first nucleus, if you will, is surrounding the ceasefire. As I said, the number of countries that are directly involved in those negotiations is extremely small. It’s the two parties of the conflict, a couple of neighbours and the United States.
As you know, Canada is a member of the Group of Seven, or G7, and we do benefit from sitting at the table. For example, at the senior officials level as well as at the ministerial level, G7 countries meet on a very regular basis. You’re familiar with the construct of the political directors who are the senior advisors to the foreign ministers of the G7 countries. They meet on a weekly basis and exchange notes and therefore get updates, particularly from the United States, on how the negotiations are going.
We now have a similar equivalent group of heads of Middle East departments in the G7 countries where I sit. We also meet on a weekly basis. We get direct downloads of information, but also an opportunity to share Canada’s view as well as thoughts on how things should evolve. So that’s on the ceasefire itself.
Then we know there are a number of parallel tracks, subregional groups mostly made of Middle East countries, European Union and the United States that have periodic conversations about how to plan the so-called day after. There we already tried to pre-position ourselves to foreshadow areas where in a reconstruction phase we would each bring expertise, funding, support, et cetera.
These happen really in a parallel fashion, and I would say both at the official level in embassies and capitals around the world and the administrative level.
The Chair: Thank you very much. My next question is a follow-on and it’s not going to surprise you one bit. In January, Canada will take the G7 presidency. I know you and I had a very close association in 2018 when we did this the last time.
On this particular issue, the presidency will require not just convening power, but leadership and having all bases covered in terms of initiatives. If there is a ceasefire by then, it will mean how can the two-state solution be realized? How can Gaza rebuild? Can it rebuild? All of those things.
Do you feel that you and the various teams involved are prepared to take this on and to push it forward?
Mr. Lévêque: Thank you for the question. Your reflexes as a former sherpa for the G7 for the Prime Minister are clearly coming back.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Lévêque: You’re absolutely right, all of this is being thought through. What I’ll say is, of course, this is a fairly dynamic set of circumstances and we will have to adjust to the conditions on the ground.
Should things unlock very quickly, we would be in a different situation, for example, in terms of planning for the rebuilding, reconstruction, or supporting democratic transition in Palestinian territories, et cetera. So we’re planning for these different scenarios. One thing is for sure, the crisis in the Middle East will not be fixed by 2025 and there will be an expectation, as the eyes of the world turn toward Canada as the presidency of the G7, that we take a leadership role. Yes, it will be convening but bringing expertise, recommendations, and suggestions and bringing these parties together.
I can tell you that as early as this weekend, I will be in New York for the United Nations General Assembly. I will be presenting some of our thinking to my G7 counterparts. A meeting with them has been scheduled for Sunday afternoon where we will talk about how to equip ourselves and the kind of governance we will want to have in place to make sure that addressing the crisis in the Middle East is not just top of mind, but that we are equipped to react to all possible developments in the region.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Gerba: Thank you for reiterating Canada’s unifying role within the UN system; I look forward to your discussions regarding what would be made as a statement on this subject.
Mr. Lévêque, last August, President Joe Biden announced a three-phase agreement plan with a clearly stated objective: to achieve a ceasefire and the release of the hostages, which are essential conditions for the conflict to end.
Were you approached or involved in the preparation of this agreement plan? If so, can you tell us a little more about it?
How is Canada contributing to this plan or involved in its implementation?
Mr. Lévêque: That’s exactly what I was referring to. When I referred to the UN Security Council resolution that was adopted, it was this three-phase plan in which the negotiating parties are the United States, Egypt, Qatar and, through them, Israel and Hamas.
As I was explaining, Canada is not part of this small, very tight group of negotiators for the ceasefire, but is rather involved through groups like the G7, of which Canada is a member.
I have my own working group, at my level, with my counterparts from the G7 countries. I have other colleagues who are doing the same. We have constant updates on the progress of these negotiations. It’s a way to inform our future decisions and recommendations. It also enables us to put forward ideas and share our perspectives on the issue, and then in turn give advice through the United States, which is part of the negotiating group. This helps us see how the rest of the G7 countries view the situation.
This is the privileged and specialized channel through which Canada can share its objectives.
At the same time, we have an embassy in Israel and a representative in Ramallah, in the Palestinian territories. We have an ambassador in Qatar. We continue to have these bilateral discussions in the capitals. We also have the opportunity, through our diplomatic network, to influence and make suggestions directly to the negotiators, the people around the table. It’s a diplomatic orchestration on several levels that helps us have some input into the process.
Senator Gerba: Do you think these negotiations are moving in the right direction? If not, where will we go after the U.S. election on November 5, 2024?
Mr. Lévêque: I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that many negotiators in the region have one eye on Washington and keep a little of their dry powder in the context of their negotiating strategies, but that is in no way slowing down the determination of the negotiators. We know this because we often talk to them through intermediaries. It’s something that has come up in the dozens of negotiating sessions that have taken place, which would discourage a lot of other people.
We keep hearing about Qatar, Egypt and the United States, the fact that they keep pushing, round after round, to close this gap that remains between the parties. We have to understand that there is a profound lack of trust on both sides. However, the negotiators have clearly not given up and are still trying, despite the ongoing headwinds.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Al Zaibak: Mr. Lévêque, it has been more than 11 months since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, in which more than roughly 1,200 Israelis were killed and another 250 were taken as hostages or prisoners.
In the time since Hamas attacked, Israel has carried out air strikes and a ground invasion of Gaza that has resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths, including about 17,000 children — that’s the number you were looking for — and the displacement of approximately 1.9 million Palestinians.
My question here, since we continue to use the notion that we support Israel’s right to defend itself, is there no ceiling or threshold above which Canada would reconsider or revisit its stated support for Israel’s right to defend itself? If there is, please let us know what the threshold is. How many more deaths and how much more devastation?
Mr. Lévêque: What you describe, the humanitarian situation, is absolutely gut-wrenching, and this has been observed and commented on repeatedly.
I cannot give you an exact answer, senator. What I can say is that Canada’s role in all of this needs to continue to be a constructive one. If we are to be a partner in the longer term on the road to peace, we need to be able to say hard truths to our partners, and believe me when I say that we do, at all levels, and you just have to look at the evolution of the public comments that have been made by the Prime Minister and by several of our ministers. The hard conversations that must be had do take place.
The measures, the commitments and the public pronouncements that have been made by Canada all have the same spirit. It’s the reiteration of all parties to all parties that they must do everything in their power to protect civilian lives.
There have been abuses. There have been horrible crimes. What else can we do but to continue reinforcing that message to all parties?
The Chair: You have about 30 seconds, senator. Go for it.
Senator Al Zaibak: I think we can only do that by being fair, impartial and equitable in dealing with any conflict, including this conflict. The statement that we support Israel’s right to defend itself, it becomes like a blanket, without any other controlling mechanism, let me say. That contradicts the fairness, the impartiality and neutrality that Canada is known for.
The Chair: Thank you, senator. I think that was more of a statement than a question, and it’s on the record.
Senator Al Zaibak: Mr. Lévêque agreed, too. He was nodding.
The Chair: We are at the end of our session.
Colleagues, these are difficult issues, and, certainly, in my time working on foreign policy issues, this is one of the thorniest we have. In this context, I know the team at Global Affairs Canada is doing its very best and certainly through our network around the world.
I dare say, Mr. Lévêque and Mr. Brookfield, we will probably have you back at some point. That’s the way this is, in particular, but I do want to thank you for your testimony today and for responding to our questions. They’re not always easy questions in this committee, and we’re grateful for that.
Colleagues, we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 11:30 in this room for an update on the situation in Ukraine.
(The committee adjourned.)