THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 26, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples met with videoconference this day at 10:01 a.m. [ET] to consider the subject matter of Bill S-268, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Indian Act.
Senator Brian Francis (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, before we begin, I would like to ask all senators and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please make sure to keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you’re not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. Thank you all for your cooperation.
I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation and is now home to many other First Nations, Métis and Inuit peoples from across Turtle Island.
I am Mi’kmaq Senator Brian Francis from Epekwitk, also known as Prince Edward Island, and I am Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples.
I will now ask committee members in attendance to introduce themselves by stating their names and province or territory.
Senator Prosper: Senator Prosper, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki territory.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki.
Senator White: Judy White from Ktaqmkuk, better known as Newfoundland and Labrador. Welcome.
Senator Tannas: Senator Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Boniface: Welcome, chief. Gwen Boniface from Ontario.
Senator Hartling: Nancy Hartling, New Brunswick, the unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq people.
Senator Arnot: Good morning. I’m David Arnot. I’m a senator from Saskatchewan.
The Chair: Thank you, everyone.
Today, we will continue our study on the subject matter of Senate public bill, Bill S-268, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Indian Act, to authorize First Nations governing bodies and those designated by them to conduct, manage and regulate lottery schemes on reserve.
I would now like to introduce our first witness today, Chief Ted Williams from Chippewas of Rama First Nation. Thank you, chief, for joining us today. Our witness will provide opening remarks of approximately five minutes, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with the senators. I’ll now invite Chief Williams to give his opening remarks.
Ted Williams, Chief, Chippewas of Rama First Nation: [Indigenous language spoken].
Chief Ted Williams, and I greet you with my ancestral name [Indigenous language spoken] which is translated as Slow Moving Waters, a name that was lost for 200 years. My daughter — who attended Carleton, University College Dublin and went to Oxford — through her research, has located our ancestral name [Indigenous language spoken] about a year and a half ago. It’s something that we were very proud to find and use.
Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I have been in politics off and on for 42 years. I was on council in 1982 and 1984. I was elected chief in 1986 when I was 29. I was also the manager of the community, the administrator, back in 1992 to 1995, so I managed the community for a few years. We won the bid of Casino Rama on December 5, 1994. I co-wrote the proposal that won the bid, and I began to assemble a team and implement the work that was required to develop Casino Rama. I subsequently finished and completed Casino Rama in 1996, worked there as the vice-president for five years in human resources and corporate affairs and I consulted on my own time for 10 years.
I woke up one morning in 2014 and they told me that I was elected to council. I was like, “What?” So I was on council for six years, elected to chief in 2020 and just re-elected again in August. I have two wonderful kids — a son who is 43, a daughter who is 40 — and I have a grandson who is 11 weeks old that I visited last night. They live in Ottawa. I have been married for 46 years. I come from a family of 14 brothers and sisters.
That’s a little bit about me. You could ask more later on, but I do want to say meegwetch. I am very grateful and thankful to have the opportunity to address you all here in the Senate. Meegwetch for the opportunity.
I have been invited before you today on behalf of the Chippewas of Rama First Nation. Rama is a proud, progressive First Nation community with a long-standing history of economic engagement, including hosting the first-ever commercial casino on reserve land in Ontario, the largest commercial casino on First Nation territory in the country.
Rama First Nation has been heavily involved with Casino Rama since its opening in 1996. Our community has played an integral role in its operations, building significant expertise and capacity in the gaming industry. Over the years, we’ve worked diligently to advance our aspirations to be not only partners but operators within this industry. I would like the committee to know that the citizens of Rama First Nation have the intelligence, capacity and ability to run a successful casino operation just as well as anyone else, and this is true throughout First Nations across the land.
The proposed amendments would empower First Nations, like ours, to fully participate in the gaming sector beyond the limitations of the current arrangement. One of the challenges that we face, specifically within our community — and I know it well; I’ve been involved for 30 years now — is the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation, or OLG, as I interpret, monopoly on gaming. While we work very well with OLG, because it’s important to work very well with your partners, the level of control provided by the current Criminal Code on gaming creates difficulties in terms of marketing and business competitiveness for independent operators, particularly First Nations. It restricts us from tapping into the full potential of this industry. The proposed new bill will amend the Criminal Code in a positive step towards engagement with First Nations as partners in Canada.
We believe it’s time for a change. It’s time to empower First Nations with the expertise, tools and jurisdiction to run their own casinos and gaming operations without unnecessary barriers.
While the R. v. Pamajewon case clearly set out a precedent by ruling that the right to self-government does not include gaming on reserve, Bill S-268 presents a significant opportunity to right the relationship with First Nations. This bill would grant First Nations the authority and jurisdiction over gaming on our lands without the limitations and often paternalistic regulations that currently restrict us.
Those are my comments for the opening, and I appreciate, once again, the opportunity to make these statements. I am more than willing and open to answer any questions that you may have.
The Chair: Thank you, Chief Williams, for your opening remarks. We will now open the floor to questions from senators.
Senator Arnot: Thank you, Chief Williams, for coming today. Chief Williams, how do you view the potential of Bill S-268 to replicate the success that you’ve had in your community and in other Indigenous communities? In your experience, what are the critical factors for ensuring that gaming operations truly benefit the community?
Mr. Williams: We have 30 years of experience in the gaming industry, and I can say that in those 30 years of experience, we have developed quality relationships with vendors, the surrounding municipalities, the townships, the city and the business community. We have actually driven the economy in Orillia and area. I don’t mind telling you that over the course of 26 years, over $2 billion has left the community, and I tell my colleagues in the municipalities, it hasn’t stayed in Rama. It has gone to the City of Orillia, possibly Barrie as well, and the surrounding township.
Building on that whole relationship of the First Nations continuing to have a positive impact on our surrounding neighbours, it’s not without challenges. We fully acknowledge the issue of gambling and gambling addiction. We have addressed that as a community, and we have addressed that as a casino industry with the OLG and partner with them.
I believe that this opportunity will only strengthen the industry. I’ve said this to my colleagues at OLG, and I’ve said this to my colleagues in the municipal sector, all we want to do as a First Nation — all I want — is the opportunity to compete. That’s what I want. I want the opportunity to compete. Let me show you what we can do.
Senator Arnot: Chief, I just want you to amplify this issue. Do you agree that Bill S-268 is a bill that will support First Nations’ ability to govern their economic activities independently? In other words, it’s about Indigenous self‑determination and the principles of Indigenous self‑determination.
Mr. Williams: Most definitely. It’s a real opportunity for us. As I just said, it’s for us. It’s up to us. It’s not up to anyone else to drive successful operations, and there’s nothing like having the opportunity and taking on the responsibility to drive your own future. I believe that’s what this bill does.
Senator Tannas: Thank you for being here, chief. How many employees do you have at the operation?
Mr. Williams: Casino Rama currently has approximately 1,100 employees. The revenue for this year will be approximately $200 million.
Now, I just want to back up. When we opened up the casino in 1996, I was the vice-president there, and we thought that we would do the $200 million and we would have the 1,100 employees. In 1996, we actually had 3,400 employees, and the revenue for the first 12 months were upwards of $590 million. For the five years that I was there, we did over $500 million a year, and we had over 3,000 employees.
As a result of competitive issues and, quite frankly — honestly — you burn people out. You burn players out. The whole marketing strategy evolves as a result of that, and so today, I tell people back in 1995 we thought we do $200 million and have 1,100 people employed. We have that today.
In all honesty, we rode the gravy train for about 24 years.
Senator Tannas: So this is my understanding, and maybe you can confirm it. You had a licence. It was granted by the province. You were doing $500 million with 3,000 employees, and other licences were granted strategically placed between Toronto and Casino Rama such that your business was cannibalized through this process so that you’ve lost revenue and your ability to compete, as you talked about, when you’re selling the exact same product that everybody else is.
Can you talk about once your community is in charge, the potential for innovation that allows for competition? Is that something that you think is an important factor or do you believe that you would be doing the exact same games that could be done in a government-sponsored casino somewhere else?
Mr. Williams: There is a lot to be said when it’s actually in your community. You live there. Your friends and your family work there, and they are not just First Nations, it’s your friends and family who are non-First Nations as well. The drive, the desire, the competitiveness, the passion of — what do you want to call it? I’m searching for the word — the things that you cannot see that make a big difference, I believe, drive the creativity, drive innovation and drive us to become better.
I don’t mind telling you that I go to Disney. I go to Disney World all the time. Why do you go there all the time? It’s because they do things right. It’s great service. Of course it’s a little expensive, but the reason I go is because I pick up ideas all the time, and I come back and we implement in the community.
I believe we are on the verge of, and it’s slowly happening, the service industry for the First Nation community growing. A lot of First Nations come to Rama. They drive around the community. They go to our Tim Hortons. They go to our gas station. They go to our park. They go to our arena. They go to our cannabis shop, and our people are top-notch in service. I believe that’s why they come.
How? How have you done this? What can we learn from you, Rama, on how you have developed your community to the point where it is now?
Senator White: Thank you, Chief Slow Moving Waters, we’re very happy to have you here, and certainly, I’m very happy that you were afforded the opportunity to spend some time with your grandson last night. As a grandparent, I know that’s our greatest gift.
As an Indigenous senator, I have to say it’s very refreshing to have an Indigenous leader talk about something good we’re doing because we always hear about what we’re not doing.
As someone that has been very privileged actually to attend Casino Rama for a birthday while I was at Osgoode — I won’t tell you what year that was — the service is top-notch. It was a great experience, one that has been quite memorable and that myself and a couple of my girlfriends who were all in law school together cherish, so thank you for the service. That was quite some time ago.
My question is this: Based on the experience that you’ve had and based on the fact that this will provide opportunities for other First Nations on a go-forward basis, what would you tell a First Nation that is embarking on this through this new piece of legislation? What supports would you suggest that they have? What things would you say, “Okay, you might have this, but these are the things you should consider.”
Mr. Williams: First of all, you have to have the right leadership, and I’m not necessarily talking about elected leaders. There are leaders in the community who know what to do, but the leaders who are elected need a place to trust in them to get the job done. So they have to have a good relationship.
You also need to be financially stable and have your financial house in order. You have your policies and your guidelines because when you’re dealing with other institutions — let’s say banks — if you don’t have it in order, they will talk to you, but they may not necessarily give you the money. We have that. It’s very important.
Developing those relationships that are supportive. I have great relationships with the area’s municipal politicians. I have great relationships with the business community. They know who I am. The value and creation of those relationships cannot be understated. We are not on an island in Rama. We are spread out, and we actually drive. It’s important for me to let my municipal leaders know that we’re driving things for you. As such, the relationship of respect is important. Long gone are the days in our community in which we’re subservient in any way. No. I’m driving things, and if you want to come along then come along, but if you’re not, I’m driving right by you.
That confidence is important. I understand what is going on in First Nations communities and municipal relationships — whether they are strong or weak.
Nothing gives you confidence like a successful operation or successful business, and that’s what we have. I’m proud to be a part of that. That’s a long answer to your question.
Senator White: That’s great advice. Thank you.
Senator Coyle: Thank you for being with us, Chief Williams. I represent Nova Scotia, but I was born in Orillia.
Mr. Williams: Oh!
Senator Coyle: Yes.
Mr. Williams: I used to sell real estate, so I know the streets.
Senator Coyle: That was part of my dad’s territory when he was a travelling salesman. That’s why we were living there.
Anyway, I have known for years about the success of Casino Rama, and I want to congratulate you on your role in that success. It must be a tremendous source of pride for you and for your community, but also the greater community there. Everybody knows Casino Rama and how successful it has been.
Looking at this Bill S-268, I understand from your remarks that you are very much in favour of this bill. You have expressed, in many ways, the benefits this bill will bring in terms of unharnessing the potential that you feel is yet unfulfilled. Although it’s successful, it could be even greater.
What I would like to hear more about, and you started in on this, is this: What exactly will that potential look like, both in terms of the business, the community benefits and also the leadership within the industry? How would it unleash those various layers of potential?
Mr. Williams: Let me take out my crystal ball. When I look at the possibilities, we currently have a number of individuals who are experts in the gaming business who are from my community. And we have individuals who aren’t members of the community, but who are very close allies and good friends of ours. I see an opportunity for members of the community to develop long-standing careers in the industry; individuals who are just turning of age, I can see them becoming leaders. As I look down the road, I have four members of my council who are under 40, and my job right now is to mentor them.
I see them taking on a leadership role, and I see the future of our community being stable for a number of years. If our community is stable for a number of years, that means that the surrounding area will be stable for a number of years as well.
With the changing of technology, I believe that there is technology that hasn’t yet arrived, which will have a big impact on driving revenues for the casino industry. It will be challenging because there will be even more competitive aspects as a result of that, but I am fully confident in our people.
For the past 10 to 12 years, we have, each year in Rama, provided post-secondary education opportunities in college and our universities to over 100 of our members each year.
There are more individuals taking university courses than there are those who are taking college courses, not to diminish college. But having said that, I felt that the younger people are coming after me in a good way. That means that we will be solid, as a community, for years to come.
I believe that’s the opportunity in other First Nations across the country as well. They will have a solid economic foundation in their communities well into the future.
I’m not sure if that has answered your question.
Senator Coyle: I’m curious about the other communities. Have you had cases of other Indigenous communities coming to you saying, “How do you do it? Can you help us?”
Mr. Williams: I have put out the offer many times. They come, they see and they participate. But we generally have discussions on the side, whether it’s at the Anishinabek Nation, the Chiefs of Ontario or the Assembly of First Nations when we all get together. That’s usually what takes place. They will show up. I know they show up because I receive all the information about who has actually booked the conference rooms. They call me and say, “Can you bring words of welcome?” After we bring words of welcome, they take the opportunity saying, “I drove around your community last night. How are your people building these homes?” I share with them how we are building the homes. We are probably the only First Nation in the country that has a revolving loan fund that is guaranteed by us working with the banks — Scotiabank — and we will give you a loan, as long as you qualify — even anywhere outside of the community — or a mortgage of up to $500,000 to build your house. We have done that for the past 10 years, and we have only had one default. People take it seriously. We are able to allow the members of our community to live at a certain standard that anyone in the country would be able to live at.
Senator Coyle: Thank you.
Senator Boniface: Welcome. It is great to see you here. In some ways, you and Casino Rama are the driving forces in our region. I’m from Orillia, and I have watched its development. As you know, I give great credit to your leadership on this issue and how it has impacted our community. In fact, if I remember correctly, you are the second-largest employer in our region as well. So it is not just the First Nation that has benefited but the entire community, both in terms of your leadership and in terms of what it has brought to the social issues within our community as well. I am grateful you are here.
I want to hear more about what you see as the limitations and barriers from the province. Clearly, this will be a bill that the provinces will have a voice regarding. You mentioned the OLG and the limitations they put on you. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about that.
Mr. Williams: When we developed Casino Rama back in 1996, we were told there wouldn’t be — there was a casino that happened in 1994. We were told there would be no competition in our territory for a few years. Metro Toronto, at the time, said, “No, it is not going to happen.” But within six months, Casino Niagara happened, and the auspices of the then Ontario Casino Corporation, which evolved into Ontario Lottery and Gaming, occurred.
We were facing competition right off the bat after we were told we would not have competition. It is not that we do not want competition, but I want competition that is fair and equitable.
I have great respect for my friends at OLG. But when you conduct and manage gaming for the Province of Ontario, which includes Casino Rama, and you conduct and manage gaming in Woodbine, Pickering, Ajax and Niagara Falls, it is difficult to be — where else can you be the administrator and also be the competition? Where else does that happen? I see that. That has been my argument for the last 28 years.
Having said that, we live within the system. We do our best, and we do what we can as a First Nation to assist in driving revenues. That is the biggest issue I see. It is not a level playing field with Casino Rama and Woodbine or Casino Rama and Niagara. They are closer to metropolitan areas. We drive our revenues through a tourism base during the seasons of March until the end of November. It slows down in January and February, and then we ramp up again.
If we were given the opportunity, as a nation, to develop our own programming in order to compete, we would be much better off. As I said to my friends from OLG, I just want a chance to compete with you. That is all I want. If it goes great, great. If it doesn’t, then I will figure it out.
Senator Prosper: Thank you, chief, for being with us and sharing your experiences of your career. I come from a family of 14 as well. I understand communities and relationships.
I wish to get to the point. I understand that success begets success. You also said this a number of times: All you want to do is compete. You want a level and equal playing field here to go head to head. Through the course of your career but also your community, what has evolved, as I understand it, is a certain capacity where you are not just operators. You manage an industry and benefit from that experience.
What I am curious about is if you could get into — you said you want to go beyond the limits of the current arrangement where the OLG has a monopoly on gaming that restricts your full potential as a community in the industry. Can you get into that scenario there on that restriction?
Mr. Williams: Let me back up.
With Rama, we obviously own the building and the entertainment complex. We do not own the slot machines or the table games. We own everything else.
We are part of a partnership where OLG conducts and manages gaming. As part of that conducting and managing of the gaming, we have a contract with Gateway Casinos & Entertainment to operate Rama. Our job, as Rama, is to do everything we can to help facilitate business being conducted in the First Nation.
When I think of the limitations, the limitation is that we are not the operator. We are a landlord. Going back 30 years, my goal was to eventually have Rama be the operator. That is where I am at right now. What would that look like? It would not look any different as far as the set-up, legally, for Rama. Obviously, if things were to occur, we do have the financial capability to arrange for an exit. Then we would have money in the game.
The limitations would allow us to compete and develop more of our own marketing and business campaigns. Right now, there are entertainment issues that we cannot compete with because there is an entity within the industry that locks up all of the entertainers. We do not have access to certain entertainment acts.
We do not know what goes on behind closed doors. I do not know; I have no idea. I believe that if we were to have our own entity, we would have the ability to make our own arrangements to develop our marketing and business plans that would sustain a profitable casino. Casinos are profitable anyway.
I am not sure, senator, if that has answered your question.
Senator Prosper: You are certainly getting into those details I was looking for.
I will expand upon my question because I thought it was rather telling — it was one of those moments where, in my mind, I was thinking about your point. You said something like, “Where else can you be the administrator and competitor?” Obviously, you want to operate a business and you want to be successful. There are certain restrictions under the current regime. How does that translate when you have an administrator who is a “slash” competitor?
Mr. Williams: The marketing campaigns that we engage in as a casino are restricted. They have to be passed through the OLG and their administration. You just cannot go out and say, “We are going to be offering this,” because the competition will say, “Well, no, you can’t do that because you are not giving us the same opportunity in Woodbine or Ajax.” We are all kept to the same standard. We are not the one calling the shots. It is OLG who is calling the shots.
Again, I want to emphasize that we are working within the system. It is not something that I appreciate happening especially in this era, in this time and place in the country where we have truth and reconciliation and reconciliatory behaviours that are not necessarily matching up.
Getting back to the issue of competition, we are restricted by whatever the regulations, policies and/or the guidelines are of the OLG. Now, Woodbine, Niagara, Windsor are all in metropolitan areas. We are an hour and 45 minutes north of Toronto. In the wintertime, things slow down. They just slow down. We would like to have the opportunity to implement marketing programs during that time frame that would assist the casino and continue to employ the people who work at the casino.
Senator Prosper: Thank you.
Senator Hartling: Thank you, chief, for being here. Fascinating. Your story is amazing. My crystal ball says there is a book coming with all that you have — so you better start with that.
I wanted to congratulate you and say, despite the barriers, the success you have had is amazing. I liked your comparison of going to Disney World and looking for ideas. So you are always looking for ideas. You are very creative and a visionary. I like what you said about building relationships. That is part of your success.
I have not been to your area, though my good friend lives there. My sister and her family go there often, and they always have such a good time. They are coming from London. Can you give a description of where do the people come from who go there or do you know that? Probably, you do. Also ages and stages. Obviously, people are going there because they like what they are seeing and doing.
To add to that, do you see this bill building on economic reconciliation in our country, and to give an example, are these ways we can actually achieve reconciliation?
Mr. Williams: I will answer your last question first. Most definitely. Most definitely I see this as an opportunity that would benefit economic reconciliation.
Where do people come from? In the early stages of the casino and its operation, 40% of our revenues were generated by the Asian community. Forty per cent. If you are looking at, let’s say, $500 million, 40% of that is $200 million from the Asian community. It is just part of the culture. Over the course of time, we have seen that drop, erode to — it is minimal. It might be 5% or 10%, at most.
Most of the people are coming from metro Toronto. We do know this: The projections are that Toronto is growing north. It is coming closer and closer to our community. This is an opportunity for us, and we are strategizing how Rama can benefit with the population growing north. With the population growing north, it is shorter traffic to get to the community.
The population has diversified. It was fairly diverse in 1996, but it is more so today. We see that as a good challenge for us as a First Nation to lead the way. I always say to people, “When you come to Rama, I’m rolling out the red carpet when you come to Rama regardless of where you come from. The red carpet is here for you. All I ask for you to do is to respect our territory and respect our ways. That is all I want. And have fun. Oh, leave a few dollars.”
The metro area is the catchment. We do have people coming down from the north. They go to Sault Ste. Marie, the Kewadin Casino. People like to compare, right? They like to compare and say, “Oh, yeah, we like Woodbine” or “We enjoy Niagara” or “No, you have got to go up to Rama and see Rama.” It is a different flavour. If you have been to Rama, you know that when you walk into the casino, it is like walking off of the main drag in Las Vegas. It is a Las Vegas-style casino. I hope that answered your question.
Senator Hartling: That’s helpful. The age of the people who go, what would you say?
Mr. Williams: It varies. There are marketing campaigns, again, based on 20- to 30-year-olds, 40- to 60-year-olds and 60 and above. It is a very complex marketing mechanism that is employed by the casino industry to get people to come to the casino.
For example: If you are a player, you sign up with a player’s card. We know your birthday and where you live. We know how much money you play, and we know which games you like to play. When it is your birthday, I will send you a card that says, “Happy birthday. In order to receive your birthday present, we have it here for you, waiting for you.”
So you come. You come to the casino to get your gift. You are not just going to go to get your gift. You are going to go and you are going to have — you might go into the entertainment and take in the entertainment. You possibly will have a meal or two, spend the night and you obviously are going to do some gaming.
What turns out to be a nice gift is profitable for the casino. That is a big part of the marketing. I can see that we can enhance that even more.
I like to tell people that, as First Nations — I have said this to my friends — I will say, “As First Nations, we are your first friends.” You know?
Senator Hartling: That is good. Well done. With this bill going forward, we do not know what, but there will be many more things to come. It sounds great. Thank you.
Senator White: Thank you so much for your testimony here today.
I wanted to highlight a comment that you spoke about when Senator Coyle was asking you a question. You talked about these revolving credit funds. For the benefit of my colleagues here, on reserve you cannot get a mortgage. You do not own your land. It is a certificate of possession. That is very important and attractive to be that creative, to come up with those kinds of forms. You can get ministerial guarantees; it’s a big form of 10% of your funding.
For the benefit of the group, are there other innovative things that you have been doing that would be of benefit?
Mr. Williams: I do not say this to boast, but when there are many different things we have going on, it is hard to keep track of what we have going on.
When I think of our youth, for instance, our youth have the opportunity to learn who they are, where they come from in a cultural and traditional sense. We have those types of programs. How does that equate to employment, work? We call it [Indigenous language spoken] — “live the good life.” Being innovative and creative is something I encourage and look for in our people. In order for me to look for it, I have to exhibit it, “Why are you doing that, Chief Williams? Why did you do that?”
I only have a couple of minutes, but I will give you the best material that I have. If you dream it, if you think about it, if you write about it, if you speak about it, over an extended period of time whatever it is you dream, think, write and talk about, it comes into reality.
Senator White: I will be back for my player’s card.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator White.
That brings us to the end of our panel. I want to thank you again, Chief Williams, for joining us today. If you wish to make any subsequent submissions, please submit them by email to our clerk within the next seven days. That brings us to the end of our meeting.
(The committee adjourned.)