THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTERNAL ECONOMY, BUDGETS AND ADMINISTRATION
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, March 9, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met with videoconference this day at 9 a.m. [ET], pursuant to rule 12-7(1), to consider financial and administrative matters; and, in camera, pursuant to rule 12-7(1), to consider financial and administrative matters.
Senator Lucie Moncion (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good morning, senators, welcome to this meeting.
My name is Lucie Moncion. I am a senator from Ontario and I have the privilege of chairing the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration.
I would now like to go around the table and ask my colleagues to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
[English]
Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Boyer: Yvonne Boyer, Ontario.
Senator Bovey: Patricia Bovey, Manitoba.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Éric Forest from the Gulf region of Quebec.
[English]
Senator Yussuff: Senator Yussuff, Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Loffreda: Tony Loffreda from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas, Alberta.
Senator Dean: Tony Dean, Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné from Manitoba.
Senator Dalphond: Pierre Dalphond from Lorimier, Quebec.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Plett: Don Plett, Manitoba.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: Claude Carignan from Quebec.
The Chair: I also welcome all those who are following our deliberations across the country.
Honourable senators, the first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of February 16, 2023, which are in your package.
Are there any questions about this or any changes to the minutes?
Could someone move the next motion? Moved by Senator Boyer:
That the minutes of Thursday, February 16, 2023, be approved.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Seeing no objections, I declare the motion carried.
Item 2 contains the budgets for senior officers, groups and caucuses, for the financial year 2023-24. The committee secretariat has received confirmation that the leaders and facilitators have considered the issue and all are in agreement to maintain the 2022-23 budget allocations for the 2023-24 fiscal year. A copy of the proposed motion is in your package.
Are there any questions or comments regarding the information that has been submitted to you?
Would one of the House officers like to move the next motion?
Moved by Senator Plett:
That the following budget allocation for House officers for fiscal year 2023-24 be adopted: the Office of the Government Representative, $1,308,154; the Independent Senators Group, $1,308,154; the Conservative Party of Canada, $1,279,792; the Senate Progressive Group, $500,000; the Canadian Senators Group, $500,000.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Seeing no objections, I declare the motion carried.
[English]
The next item is concerning a request to enter into a memorandum of understanding with the House of Commons for the second phase of the network renewal. David Vatcher, Director, Information Services Directorate; and Martin Thibert, Manager, IT Operations and Infrastructure Support will join us as witnesses.
As usual, the presentation will be followed by time for questions.
David Vatcher, Director, Information Services Directorate, Senate of Canada: Good morning, senators. This briefing note is presented to comply with our procurement policy. The budgeted amounts, as estimated by our colleagues at the House, have been presented during the Main Estimates exercise, and were approved by this committee in December.
Many of you will remember that in May 2020, we initiated the first phase of the network upgrade project, which is a subset of the House’s overall network upgrade. At that time, we had committed to replace 99 switches and 38 access points over two years. I’m happy to remind senators that the first phase was completed within budget and within the planned two-year timeline.
Now the second phase of the project, spread over four fiscal years, aims at replacing the remaining network switches and wireless access points. The renewal of this equipment is crucial to ensure that the Senate infrastructure remains up to date, is not vulnerable from a cybersecurity standpoint and is fully supported by the manufacturers. Wherever possible, equipment will be replaced outside of normal working hours and users will be informed of service interruptions.
To conclude, senators, ISD has the funding and we are only seeking your approval to sign an MOU with the House of Commons. A competitive procurement process will be managed by the House of Commons. I would be happy to take any questions.
The Chair: Are there questions or comments, colleagues?
Could I have a mover for the following motion:
That the Senate Administration be authorized to enter into a memorandum with the House of Commons to acquire the Network equipment that will enable Phase II of the Parliamentary Precinct Network Upgrade over the course of the next four years, for an estimated total value of $3,532,000 as presented in the Main Estimate exercise for 2023-2024.
Senator Gagné moves the motion.
Is is your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion. The motion is carried.
[Translation]
Item 4 is a request to enter into a sole source contract for the renewal of the LEGISinfo memorandum of understanding with the House of Commons and the Library of Parliament. Mr. Vatcher will assist us on this item. His presentation will be followed by a question and answer period.
Mr. Vatcher, you may begin your presentation.
Mr. Vatcher: Thank you, Madam Chair.
This briefing note is presented to comply with our procurement policy. The LEGISinfo platform allows anyone to quickly find out about the progress and development of bills in both houses.
Following the recent update of the platform, in 2019-2020 and 2020-21, ISD and its two parliamentary partners, the House of Commons and the Library of Parliament, wish to renew their tripartite memorandum of understanding, as they have done since 2009, this time for a period of three years.
This agreement will ensure that the platform is supported and evolved by internal House of Commons resources.
Thank you. I’m happy to answer your questions.
Senator Moncion: Are there any questions or comments for Mr. Vatcher?
Could a senator move the next motion?
Senator Forest: Honorable senators, I move the following motion:
That the Senate Administration be authorized to renew the LEGISinfo agreement with the House of Commons and the Library of Parliament, for a period of three years, for a total amount of $45,396.
The Chair: The motion has been moved by Senator Forest.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Seeing no objections, I declare the motion carried.
Item 5 concerns the creation of a working group on credit cards.
Senators, do you have any questions or comments on the creation of this working group?
[English]
Senator Yussuff: I’m curious; what is the current policy with regard to the use of personal credit cards?
Pascale Legault, Clerk of the Committee: Senators are able to use their personal credit card. However, they are not allowed to use their personal credit card for the full payment of a bundle of flights. So if they wish to purchase a bundle of flights, they need to use the corporate credit card. That is the current policy.
Senator Yussuff: Is this motion proposing to change that policy?
The Chair: We had proposed the change to the policy where, because of the change in corporate credit cards with BMO, there is a feature that is cash back. Whatever is put on the credit card, there is a certain amount that comes back to the Senate.
The changes being brought forward should be coming into force on April 1, and they include that flight passes, plane tickets and hotels and taxis, transport, should be put on the corporate card so that the amounts that are coming back would come back to the Senate instead of the other —
Senator Yussuff: The rebate will come back to the Senate.
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Yussuff: Please indulge me. What is the working group proposing to do that is already being accomplished by the policy as you’re stating it?
The Chair: They would compare the policy in other ministries and the House of Commons to see if there is equal use or equal advantages that are provided.
Senator Loffreda: I see the mandate, and it’s a little broad — if you look at the mandate — to examine the usage of the Senate corporate credit card in relation to travel expenses. Maybe we should be more specific on that mandate.
Why would we need to create a working group and not have SEBS? I’m only an observer on SEBS, but why would SEBS not be able to determine or establish a policy with respect to that?
The Chair: It’s a discussion we had here a few weeks ago. I made the suggestion to send it back to SEBS because the first recommendation for the policy change came from SEBS, but others had chosen to create the working group. So that’s why we are looking at creating the working group.
Senator Loffreda: Just looking at the mandate — if I had a mandate such as that — it has broad powers, so perhaps be more specific on that mandate.
The Chair: Indeed. The working group usually creates their own mandate, yes.
Senator Plett: In fairness to what Senator Loffreda is saying, the group doesn’t have a mandate to make any decisions. They have a mandate to bring something to this group. CIBA will make the decision. They don’t have a mandate to do anything other than bring information forward. I’m not sure why we would be that concerned about the mandate.
Chair, I thought this was something that had been decided at the last CIBA meeting, and we were now just simply formally going to accept this and put the names of the senators in.
The Chair: Are there any other questions or comments? Okay. We are looking at a date to bring a report back to this committee. We haven’t identified a date yet, but we are proposing the end of June, if that is appropriate. I will read it and ask that someone propose a motion.
[Translation]
That the Senate Corporate Credit Card Advisory Working Group be established and authorized to review the use of the Senate corporate credit card with respect to travel expenses.
That the Advisory Working Group be composed of five Senators working collaboratively
That the following senators be appointed as members of the working group; at this time, Senator Wells has been appointed for the Conservative Group of Senators and Senator Quinn has also been appointed. Three other names will be provided to the clerk and this will be finalized by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, and the other members will be appointed by their respective leader or facilitator or their delegate, and the information will be provided to the clerk of the committee; and the membership will be finalized by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure;
That the Advisory Working Group have the power to appoint a chair;
That the Advisory Working Group submit a report on progress, as appropriate;
That the Advisory Working Group submit its final report to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration no later than 30 June 2023.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? The motion has been moved by Senator Carignan; thank you.
Senator Gagné: If I understand correctly, according to the recommendation, I see that there are five senators, so one person appointed by each group. That means that the Office of the Government Representative would have —
The Chair: When we create working groups, there is one representative per group and there are two from the Independent Senators Group, so you were not identified, but if you want to be there, senator, we can add your name. No, there has been no change.
Senator Gagné: That’s fine, I wasn’t sure if I understood correctly; thank you.
The Chair: I need a mover; Senator Carignan, thank you.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Senator Forest: Since this committee will be making recommendations to us by the end of June, does the current policy apply until then? We can use our credit cards to buy single tickets?
The Chair: Yes.
[English]
Senator Plett: I also want to be clear on that. I’m not questioning what Ms. Legault is saying — maybe I am questioning what she said, but in a respectful manner.
I actually thought our policy was we can use our personal credit card, but when we use our corporate credit card, Finance pays the flight passes — the entire bundle — right away. If we use our personal credit card, Finance pays that as we use it, but we are allowed to use our personal credit card to buy them.
Ms. Legault: You are absolutely correct. Senator, thank you for this clarification. If the senator wants to be repaid for the full amount — if it is $10,000 — they cannot expect this to happen if they use their own personal credit card. However, they can use their personal credit card; they will just be reimbursed every time they travel. Thank you for making that important clarification.
Senator Plett: They need all the help they can get.
The Chair: We are at other matters. Is there anything else we need to discuss in public before we go in camera? Are there other issues, matters that would be of interest to the public?
[Translation]
Otherwise we will suspend the meeting so that the clerk can ensure that we are in camera. However, before we do that, I would like to remind everyone that the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration meets most of the time in public. It is only when items deal with sensitive matters, such as salaries, contracts, contract negotiations, labour relations, personal matters or security that they are discussed in camera.
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration wishes to be as transparent as possible about the important work it does. I would therefore ask the clerk to inform members when we are in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)