THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
Ottawa, Tuesday, March 21, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day with videoconference at 9 a.m. [ET] to study the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024.
Senator Éric Forest (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: Welcome everyone, all senators and all Canadians watching us on sencanada.ca. My name is Éric Forest; I am a senator from the province of Quebec, in the Gulf region, and I am the deputy chair of the Senate Committee on National Finance. I would now like to ask my colleagues to go around the table and introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Gignac: Good morning. Clément Gignac, Quebec.
Senator Loffreda: Good morning and welcome, everyone. Tony Loffreda, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Bovey: I’m Patricia Bovey, senator from Manitoba.
Senator Pate: I’m Kim Pate from here on the shores of the Kitchissippi, the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg.
Senator Boehm: Peter Boehm, Ontario.
Senator Smith: Larry Smith, Montreal.
Senator Marshall: Elizabeth Marshall, Newfoundland and Labrador.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Jean-Guy Dagenais, Montreal.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I would like to acknowledge the presence of Mireille Aubé, our clerk, and Sylvain Fleury and Shaowei Pu, our analysts.
This morning we begin our study of the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024, which were referred to this committee by the Senate of Canada on March 7, 2023.
To assist us with this study, we have with us senior officials from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, Transport Canada and Employment and Social Development Canada.
[English]
Welcome to all of you. Thank you for accepting our invitation to appear in front of the Senate National Finance Committee.
[Translation]
Since there are so many of you — there are even more of you than us — and to save time, I’ll introduce the three people who will be making statements and I’ll ask the others to introduce themselves if they need to speak. We will now hear opening remarks from Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, followed by Ryan Pilgrim, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, and Karen Robertson, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Assistant Deputy Minister. Ms. Boudreau, the floor is yours.
Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Before I begin, I would like to note that I am speaking to you today from the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
I am very pleased to appear before this committee to discuss the 2023-24 Main Estimates. I am joined by senior officials from the Treasury Board Secretariat and colleagues from the Department of Employment and Social Development and the Department of Transport.
We have with us, online, Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. I have with me Monia Lahaie, Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Samantha Tattersall, Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Paul Wagner, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Transformation, Jean-François Fleury, Assistant Deputy Minister, Planning, Research and Renewal, Mireille Laroche, Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, and finally my partner in crime, Rod Greenough, Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates.
As you know, honourable senators, the Main Estimates for the next fiscal year are due by March 1 at the latest.
This year, the parliamentary session broke for two weeks in February and March, so the 2023-24 Main Estimates were tabled earlier than usual, on February 15. The Main Estimates provide information on $432.9 billion in proposed spending for 129 organizations. This amount can be broken down as follows: $198.2 billion in voted spending is to be provided through appropriations acts and $234.8 billion in statutory spending has been authorized through other legislation.
Transfer payments to other levels of government, individuals, and other organizations account for $261.4 billion, or 60.4% of planned spending. Government operating and capital costs amount to $133.7 billion, or 30.9% of planned spending. Finally, interest payments on the public debt amount to $37.8 billion, which is the remaining 8.7% of planned spending.
[English]
Voted spending has increased approximately 4% in comparison to the 2022-23 Main Estimates, including significant increases relating to settlements with Indigenous groups, disaster recovery assistance to provinces and programs to increase the housing supply.
Voted spending will be authorized through two appropriation bills. The first, interim supply, will be introduced this week and will provide funding to cover spending until the end of June. The second, full supply, will be introduced in June for the balance of funding presented in the 2023-24 Main Estimates.
[Translation]
Compared to last year’s Main Estimates, planned legislative spending is up 13%. Significant changes in statutory spending include increases in interest on unmatured debt as well as transfer payments for items such as seniors’ benefits, the Canada Health Transfer, fiscal equalization and the Climate Action Incentive Payment. These updated forecasts were previously published in the Fall 2022 Economic Statement.
These Main Estimates do not include any changes to planned spending, which will be announced for the first time in next week’s federal budget. Therefore, expect funding decisions in the budget to be reflected in the Supplemental Estimates later in 2023-24.
[English]
Now I would like to spend a bit of time talking about estimates specific to the Treasury Board Secretariat, or TBS. The secretariat is seeking $8.9 billion in funding in these Main Estimates. Of this amount, $750 million is for government contingencies — this annual amount has remained unchanged for many years — and $71 million is for government-wide initiatives. The list of supported initiatives is available online through a new annex that we have produced this year — we’re very proud of it — to Main Estimates on the central vote opening balances.
Next, $3.4 billion is to make payments under the public service pension, benefit and insurance plans, including the employer’s share of health, income maintenance and life insurance premiums. This funding is $216 million more than last year’s Main Estimates, reflecting additional funding for the public service insurance plan and programs and for the Disability Insurance Plan.
Further, $600 million is for pay-list requirements — the same amount as a year ago.
A total of $3.75 billion is for two carry-forward votes: $3 billion for operating and $750 million for capital. This $950‑million increase is to ensure sufficient funding to cover the anticipated carry-forward limits of organizations.
Finally, the remaining $312.8 million of voted funding supports the operation and activities of the Treasury Board Secretariat.
[Translation]
The Main Estimates only provide financial information about the upcoming fiscal year. The departmental plans specify how these financial resources will be used to achieve the planned results. The 2023-24 departmental plans were tabled on March 9 by the President of the Treasury Board on behalf of 90 departments and agencies. Departmental plans provide details on an organization’s mandate, commitments and priorities for the upcoming fiscal year and are the baseline against which organizations will monitor and report on their performance at the end of the fiscal year through Departmental Results Reports.
Through the tabling of these plans in Parliament, parliamentarians and Canadians can track progress on stated priorities and hold the government accountable for how it uses resources to achieve expected results.
Finally, honourable senators, I would like to remind you that these estimates and other financial, people management and performance data from the government are also posted on the GoC InfoBase, a visualization tool that turns complex data into simple visual representations.
My colleagues and I will be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you very much.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Mr. Pilgrim, you have the floor.
[English]
Ryan Pilgrim, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Transport Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. I am accompanied today by my colleague Serge Bijimine, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, who is seated at the table with me, as well as by the following individuals who are present in the room and available to support any questions you may have: Stephanie Hébert, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs; Lisa Setlakwe, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security; and Martin McKay, Director General, High Frequency Rail. We are pleased to be here to discuss Transport Canada’s Main Estimates for the fiscal year 2023-24.
As our country emerges from the impacts of the pandemic, Transport Canada remains dedicated to ensuring the safety, security, efficiency and environmental sustainability of all modes of transportation across the country. Funding provided through these Main Estimates will support a wide variety of initiatives and will enable the department to revitalize the country’s transportation systems while continuing to deliver a high level of service to Canadians.
Through the 2023-24 Main Estimates, Transport Canada is seeking funding of $3.6 billion, including $2.1 billion for grants and contributions, $1 billion for operating expenditures, $166 million for capital expenditures and $248.8 million in statutory authorities. This represents an increase in total authorities of $761.1 million over the previous Main Estimates, associated primarily with two major initiatives: the zero‑emission vehicles program and the High Frequency Rail, or HFR, project.
The zero-emission vehicles program remains a priority for the department. Through a $542-million increase in grant funding for this program, we will continue to make zero-emission vehicles, or ZEVs, more affordable for Canadians. This funding will not only enable the continuation of purchase incentives for eligible light-duty vehicles but also accelerate the provision of incentives for eligible medium- and heavy-duty vehicles. This popular incentive program is just one example of the steps the department is taking to reduce air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, supporting a greener transportation system for Canada.
The implementation of the High Frequency Rail project represents a significant step towards enhancing climate-friendly transportation infrastructure in Canada. The HFR project will offer faster, more frequent and more reliable passenger rail service along Canada’s busiest travel and trade corridor, from Quebec City to Toronto. An increase of $270 million for Transport Canada through the Main Estimates will support the design and development of this intercity passenger rail network, as the project continues to progress on critical procurement activities in 2023-24.
In addition to increased funding for these items, Transport Canada remains dedicated to delivering on a number of additional commitments and priorities. To further support environmental sustainability in the transportation system, Transport Canada continues to implement the Oceans Protection Plan, or OPP. Through this initiative, the department is helping to reduce and prevent transportation-related pollution, protect Canada’s ecosystems, strengthen marine safety and bolster partnerships with Indigenous and coastal communities.
Internationally, supply chains are under pressure on several fronts. This isn’t a uniquely Canadian challenge but, rather, a global one, which is top of mind for many Canadians. Funding for the National Trade Corridors Fund will provide continued support to strengthen connectivity between various modes of transportation. This is an essential component of our nation’s post-pandemic recovery which will result in more effective and efficient transportation infrastructure, help rehabilitate the country’s supply chain and meet the needs of northern and remote territorial communities.
Further recapitalization of the nation’s transportation infrastructure will be achieved through such initiatives as the Airports Capital Assistance Program, which provides financial assistance to regional airports for capital projects and major equipment purchases. This program helps ensure the continued safe operation of regional airports for Canadians and for the goods and services on which they rely, regardless of where they live.
[Translation]
In addition to the safety and security of our air, marine, rail and road systems, which remain at the forefront of our priority setting, a major aspect of Transport Canada’s mandate is in the research, development and promotion of innovative transportation technologies that meet the rapidly evolving needs of Canadian society and industry. In this regard, we will continue to support the growing demand for new transportation solutions, including drones for a wide range of industrial and social service applications, and connected and automated transportation systems. In 2023-24, Transport Canada will maintain current safety and security operations and position itself as a leader in innovative fields, enabling Canadian companies to compete globally through a regulatory framework adapted to new emerging technologies.
These Main Estimates will also provide critical funding to the Crown corporations and transportation portfolio organizations whose operations represent an integral component of Canada’s transportation sector.
For example, increased funding provided to Marine Atlantic Incorporated and the Federal Bridge Corporation Limited will support the transportation of Canadians who rely on ferry services and international bridges, both of which are recovering from impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. Funding for the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority will ensure safe and secure operations at Canada’s airports through the continued delivery of pre-boarding and baggage screening. Increased funding for VIA Rail will support their continued investment in several capital projects, beyond the High Frequency Rail program and the operations of its arm’s-length subsidiary, VIA HFR.
The aforementioned initiatives represent a small sample for which funding is sought through the Main Estimates. This funding will enable Transport Canada to offer Canadians a trustworthy and dependable transportation system that has adapted to the impacts the pandemic, without compromising the priorities and commitments that existed before its onset.
My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Mr. Pilgrim. I now invite Ms. Karen Robertson to take the floor.
Karen Robertson, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development Canada: Deputy Chair, members of the committee, first of all, I would like to point out that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
I am pleased to be here with you today in my capacity as Chief Financial Officer of Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC. It is an honour to be here today.
I am also joined by several of my colleagues from the department, including Brian Leonard, Deputy Chief Financial Officer. My colleagues will assist me in providing additional detail and perspective on the items included in the department’s Main Estimates.
The department provides a range of programs and services that benefit Canadians throughout their lives. For example, the department provides seniors with a basic income, supports workers, helps students finance their post-secondary education and supports parents raising young children.
Through the Labour Program, we are also mandated to ensure that vibrant, productive, healthy and competitive workplaces are maintained among federally regulated employers.
Service Canada delivers the many ESDC programs to citizens, as well as other Government of Canada programs and services.
[English]
Allow me to present to the committee an overview of Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, portion of the 2023-24 Main Estimates originally tabled on February 15. The 2023-24 Main Estimates for ESDC amount to $94.2 billion. This is an increase of $6.8 billion when compared to the 2022‑23 Main Estimates. Of the $94.2 billion, 88% will directly benefit Canadians through the Old Age Security program and other statutory transfer payment programs.
In these Main Estimates, statutory items total $83 billion, which is an increase of $7 billion from 2022-23 Main Estimates. This increase is mostly explained by an $8.2-billion planned increase to Old Age Security, OAS, and the Guaranteed Income Supplement, GIS, payments. The payments are directly related to expected increases to the number of Old Age Security pensioners. There is also indexation of benefits using higher forecast inflation rates than in previous years.
Finally, Budget 2021 announced an increase of 10% to the monthly Old Age Security pension for seniors aged 75 and over as of July 2022. The OAS and GIS increases are offset by a decrease of $1.3 billion to the Canada Student Financial Assistance Program. This is mainly explained by decreased Canada Student Grants, as the temporary COVID-19 measure doubling all grant amounts will end on July 31, 2023.
It should be noted that statutory items are included in the estimates for information purposes only, as Parliament has already approved the purpose of the expenditures and the terms and conditions under which they may be made through other legislation.
In addition to statutory items, Vote 1—Operating Budget totals $1.3 billion in 2023-24. This is an increase of $195.3 million from the 2022-23 Main Estimates. This increase is mainly twofold. First, it’s due to investments to modernize information technology infrastructure which is supporting benefit delivery. Second, there is an increase in the operating budget to address Old Age Security workload pressures.
The total Vote 5—Grants and Contributions presented in the Main Estimates is $9.9 billion. This is a decrease of $427 million from 2022-23 Main Estimates. This is mainly a result of the following events: First, there is the sunsetting of the one-time payment to the Guaranteed Income Supplement and allowance recipients who received benefits in 2020. Secondly, there are also funding decreases for the following programs: Community Services Recovery Fund, the Workforce Development Agreements and the Youth Employment and Skills Strategy. Please note that there is a $1.1-billion increase to payments to provinces and territories for Early Learning and Child Care.
You will also note that Employment Insurance benefits, EI, Canada Pension Plan benefits, CPP, and related administrative costs are excluded from the department’s Main Estimates. The EI Operating Account and the CPP are specified-purpose accounts. The EI Operating Account is included in the consolidated data of the Government of Canada. The CPP is not incorporated into the government’s financial statements, since it is under the joint control of the federal government and the participating provinces and territories. EI and CPP benefits are reflected in the Departmental Plan, which was tabled on March 9, 2023.
[Translation]
I hope this overview has given you a better understanding of our department’s Main Estimates. My colleagues and I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much for your statements.
[Translation]
We will now proceed to our question period. I would like to point out that senators have a maximum of five minutes for the first round and a maximum of three minutes for the second round. I would ask that you put your question directly, and that the witnesses answer concisely, please. The clerk will notify me when the time is up and I will let you know.
[English]
Senator Marshall: My first question is for Ms. Robertson. Thank you very much. You had excellent opening remarks.
I want to talk about the Early Learning and Child Care program because I’ve seen some recent announcements about the reduction of the fees and the $10-a-day child care. That’s wonderful news for parents who have their children in daycare and already have a space, but there aren’t enough spaces. There was a commitment that there would be 250,000 new spaces created, and 40,000 new child care positions were to be created.
I know just from reading in the media — in fact, in my own province of Newfoundland and Labrador, there was an excellent article on CBC Radio where they were referring to the shortage of child care spaces as a crisis. I know in other provinces, such as P.E.I., they have about 2,000 families waiting for a child care space.
Can you give us an update as to how many of those 250,000 new spaces have been created as well as how many of the 40,000 new positions?
Ms. Robertson: I can confirm that in these Main Estimates, there is over $6 billion in funding for children and families. With your permission, I will invite my colleague Catherine Adam, who is the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister for that program, to join me to answer your questions directly.
Catherine Adam, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: Thank you very much for the question.
As of February of this year, provinces and territories, with the investment that was made in Budget 2021 for Early Learning and Child Care, had created over 50,000 new child care spaces.
Senator Marshall: Where is that disclosed? Is that publicly disclosed? Because I can’t find it, and I couldn’t find it in your results. I see it in the minister’s mandate letter.
Ms. Adam: Part of what happens is provinces and territories, of course, have the responsibility. What we do in each of the agreements is that there are action plans that accompany the agreements. Those action plans detail what each province has as its base creation targets. For Newfoundland and Labrador, for example, you’ll see the space creation targets the province has committed to.
Senator Marshall: Is that on your website?
Ms. Adam: Yes, it is.
Then, as the provinces are implementing Canada-wide, there are announcements that go out. We’re tracking through conversations with provinces and territories on space creation, as well as what we’re seeing in various sources, and that’s what is getting us to the figure of over 50,000 confirmed new spaces that have been created.
Senator Marshall: Where is it publicly disclosed? I’ve spent a lot of time on this program because it’s of interest to me, and I can’t find the numbers. I also can’t see any plan how you’re going to close the gap. The 250,000 spaces won’t solve the problem. So those are two questions. Where is it disclosed?
Ms. Adam: Public disclosure is really on the provinces and territories that are making the announcements and disclosing that information.
Senator Marshall: You’re paying the $30 billion.
Ms. Adam: We are, for sure.
So we know that Newfoundland and Labrador announced in May of 2022 the creation of 600 new spaces and that they plan to have those fully online by March of this year. That is one piece.
Provinces and territories report in on their targets and their action plans every year to us, so we’re able to see those reports. As we gather them and pull it together for an annual report, when we have that information available, we post that publicly on the ESDC website. That will be the way to do it.
In terms of closing the gap in space creation, the total in terms of what provinces and territories have committed to in the Canada-wide system with the Budget 2021 investment is actually going to be over 250,000. I believe, if my memory serves, it’s approximately 275,000 new spaces.
Senator Marshall: Right.
Ms. Adam: Right now, provinces and territories are on track on their space creation targets and commitments, and we continue to monitor as they report in on that.
Senator Marshall: If I can make a suggestion, please disclose it in your Departmental Results Report.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: My question is for the representative of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. Ms. Boudreau, it’s a pleasure to see you again. I have taken note of the InfoBase tool, which is quite an interesting tool.
My first question concerns the fact that total spending will reach $432 billion, an 8.9% increase over the previous year. As parliamentarians, we must debate the voted portion, not the legislative component. That portion represents an increase of 4.2%. For those who follow our debates, $432 billion is a substantial amount of money. It is admittedly less than the $500 billion we saw during the pandemic.
I’d like to hear from you on the average annual rate of growth over the last five years. If we compare the following year with the year before the pandemic, we’re talking about a spending threshold of how much more, in terms of percentage? If you don’t have the information on hand, I’ll come back to it later.
In the Main Estimates, the Treasury Board Secretariat is requesting $3 billion in vote 25; this is a bit technical in relation to the operating budget, but it’s still a 43% increase over the previous year. What is the purpose of this vote 25? Can you explain it to us?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for your questions. I’ll begin with the carry-forward. There are two carry-forward instances: one for the operating budget and another for the capital budget. These carry-forwards were implemented quite a while ago to address an issue we had in the past. As you know, departments ended the fiscal year on March 31, so we didn’t want them to start spending all their money before March 31 to end up with zero at the end of the year. So we put this mechanism in place whereby any funds that were not spent by March 31 could be carried over to the next year.
In terms of the operating budget, it’s a maximum of 5% of the departments’ annual expenditures. I pay attention to the annual expenditures, because those include the Main Estimates and all the supplementary budgets during the year, which are Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C).
In terms of the capital budget, we’re talking about 20% of capital spending, but only in the Main Estimates. Why is there more money this year from the Treasury Board perspective? As you said in your first question, it’s because budgets have increased by 5%, so that is the reason. That’s the maximum we have. If we need more money, we’ll come back to it in the supplementary estimates, as we did last year, and if we don’t need more money, the money will go back into the fiscal framework.
Senator Gignac: If you ever have the number at hand in response to my first question... I’m curious to compare the average annual federal government growth rate over the last five years.
Ms. Boudreau: Yes, in fact, I do have the numbers with me. I have the growth rate, so I will provide it to you.
If you look at the 2019-20 Main Estimates, there was a total voted and statutory amount of $299.6 billion. The following year, 2020-21, there was a total of $304 billion, which is a 2% increase. In 2021-22, there was a total expenditure of $342.2 billion, a 12% increase. In 2022-23, there was a total of $397.58 billion, a 16% increase. Finally, this year, in 2023-24, we have a total of $432 billion, for a total increase of 9%. I know I have just given you many figures, but I can also provide the committee with the information.
The Deputy Chair: Please send it through the clerk.
Senator Gignac: My next question is for Transport Canada officials and concerns the update on the much-discussed high‑frequency train project.
There’s been a lot of press about the possibility of high frequency rail corridors. Can you give us an update and tell us what stage we have reached on this matter?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. This is one of our generation’s greatest projects in Canada. I will turn it over to my colleague Serge Bijimine.
Serge Bijimine, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Transport Canada: This is well and truly the largest infrastructure project in decades. The goal is to have a private sector partner who can design the project to ensure that portions of it are high speed. It could be the entire network, but certain segments will be high speed. The goal is to have some segments capable of speeds up to 250 km/h and beyond, which is considered high-speed. We are still waiting for the design.
We’re going to be issuing the request for proposals soon; we’ve just issued the request for qualifications. We’re going to qualify three or four eligible companies and from there we’ll launch the request for proposals for those companies, with the goal of including high-speed portions.
Senator Gignac: I’ll have questions for the second round. Thank you.
[English]
Senator Smith: Thank you. This is for Transport Canada. Mr. Pilgrim, maybe you can help me out. We have gone through the estimates of $3.3 billion voted expenditures forecast to fund $248 million for a total of $3.6 billion. That is 26% above last year’s Main Estimates.
The Departmental Plan 2023-24 notes that Transport Canada’s commitment to reconciliation with Indigenous peoples is foundational to its activities in all forms of transportation. The department notes it plans to increase Indigenous participation by leveraging opportunities across the departments, specifically in the areas of ocean protection and rail safety.
Could you explain what the initiative is designed to achieve? How will the department measure its success?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. Indeed, reconciliation is a big part of our agenda, and several different initiatives have this as a priority. One specifically is the program to advance Indigenous reconciliation which is funded in part by the modernization of rail safety and security and by the High Frequency Rail project.
As you noted as well, the Oceans Protection Plan has a significant component of Indigenous engagement, for which tens of millions of dollars have been allocated over the next number of years to ensure appropriate and meaningful consultation with Indigenous population. Perhaps I could pass it to my colleague Stephanie Hébert, who is responsible for this initiative.
Senator Smith: What I’m trying to find out is how this is going to roll out and specifics like what areas will be affected in terms of the Indigenous population and geographically. I’m trying to avoid general statements if we can get some specifics. I’m looking at trying to measure objectives. It’s one thing to talk about placing money, but what is the objective? How are you going to measure the success? That’s what I’m trying to find out.
Stephanie Hébert, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs, Transport Canada: If I may, we have a number of grants and contributions programs where we are able to provide funding to Indigenous groups, usually local communities. That is to ensure capacity building and support so that they are able to provide advice and guidance to help us in terms of the development of programs and —
Senator Smith: Do you have three or four locations you could give us?
Ms. Hébert: We are exceptionally active on the West Coast. In the estimates, you have funding that supports Transport Canada and works with Indigenous communities on the implementation of the recommendations that came out of the Trans Mountain pipeline. That would be one concrete example in the estimates today.
Under the Oceans Protection Plan, again, there is a lot of work in terms of mitigating the impacts of marine shipping, in terms of supporting marine life. There is a lot of work in that space.
Senator Smith: Specifically, where would that be?
Ms. Hébert: I can follow up with the committee on specific examples of the different groups.
Senator Smith: That would be helpful if you can give us that because the money is there; the issue is where and how you’re going to measure it.
Ms. Hébert: Absolutely.
Mr. Pilgrim: One good example is the Marine Training Program, or MTP. The British Columbia Institute of Technology, in partnership with Emerson College, has seen 173 students graduate the program since 2019. The Nunavut Fisheries and Marine Training Consortium has seen 242 students complete their courses via the MTP since 2018. The Nova Scotia Community College has seen 342 students graduate since 2019.
Senator Smith: All Indigenous kids?
Mr. Pilgrim: Yes. That’s part of our Marine Training Program. Significant training in ocean safety — on the West Coast primarily and in the North, with Indigenous communities — has had a real impact.
Senator Smith: Will this education lead to job opportunities within government in the local areas?
Mr. Pilgrim: Definitely. It is pretty intense training that should definitely lead to job opportunities because that skill set has a shortage.
Senator Smith: Will you be able to measure that?
Mr. Pilgrim: Yes, I’m sure we could. The number of graduates who were hired, yes.
Senator Smith: How do we get these people involved?
Mr. Pilgrim: There is definitely a skills labour shortage, so it will benefit us and the communities equally, hopefully. That is the intent.
Senator Smith: How is your measurement system going to evolve? Will it be every six months or every three months or one year? What is your time frame?
Mr. Pilgrim: In terms of measuring the results, that’s a good question. The ongoing measurement and reporting on OPP are pretty intense and on our website. In terms of the numbers of folks trained, the measurement is ongoing daily and annually. In terms of those hired into permanent government positions after that, it’s something I have to look into, but I’m sure it could be easily achieved.
Senator Smith: Are you measuring graduation rates, like we do in other school programs?
Mr. Pilgrim: I’m not sure the specifics in terms of measuring graduation rates, but it would be tracked.
Senator Smith: You could say, “I got 90% graduated.” It’s exciting because we have the League of Nations in front of us.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: May I congratulate you, Senator Smith, for your induction into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame.
[English]
Senator Loffreda: I’m honoured to speak after the Hall of Famer Larry Smith here this morning. Congratulations on the Hall of Fame, Senator Smith.
A warm welcome to all our witnesses for being here this morning. Thank you for joining our Finance Committee. My question is for Transport Canada. The pandemic showed us how interconnecting global supply chains are and how easily they can be disrupted. Can you speak to us about the work of Transport Canada in investing in trade-enabling transportation infrastructure to strengthen the efficiency, reliability and resilience of Canada’s supply chains? How is the department supporting the fluidity of Canadian trade by alleviating capacity constraints and bottlenecks? Are any of the sums of money from the National Trade Corridors Fund, which is about $1 billion in the 2023-24 Main Estimates, going towards these supply chain objectives?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you very much for the question.
The Government of Canada has been working closely with industry and supply-chain partners to find solutions to ease congestion. The Government of Canada recognizes that measures taken to address supply chains must consider the important role of transportation. This is why we continue to make important strategic investments through the $4.7-billion National Trade Corridors Fund, which has committed over $3.7 billion to more than 182 projects to date to ease congestion and bottlenecks while enhancing trade hubs and gateways to make it easier for Canadian businesses to get their products to consumers around the world.
Also, the National Supply Chain Task Force was created last year to provide recommendations on short- and long-term actions to improve the fluidity and reliability of our supply chains. The task force’s final report was submitted to the minister in October, and we are currently studying it.
With that, perhaps I’ll pass it over to Mr. Bijimine.
Mr. Bijimine: Mr. Chair, some of the actions, or at least recommendations, from the task force did include investing in critical transportation infrastructure, launching a supply chain regulatory review, modernizing cargo and clearance inspection practices, exploring ways to bolster protection and remedies for shippers and service providers due to service disruption, leveraging data to get better cooperation among the various stakeholders in the supply chain and providing visibility.
To get back to some of the things Ryan Pilgrim was saying, there have been a lot of projects funded to help address some of those bottlenecks. We provided funding to the Edmonton airport to increase their capacity to take on more air cargo, and that has been really helpful to the supply chain. We’re also in the middle of working out the funding agreement at the Montreal port on a potential new terminal — again, that would increase capacity. We are also in discussion with Canadian National Railway, or CN, and others, and we’re running a few pilot projects on the West Coast to start piloting the data-sharing management systems that do exist around the world — notably, in Rotterdam, which is a world-leading port — so bringing that into Canada in the very near future.
All that work is happening, and the expectation is that there will be more coming in the very near future.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you for that response. I’ll continue with Transport Canada.
I would like to lean in a little more on the High Frequency Rail, which is an important project, as you mentioned. I would like to explore the government’s commitment to building and funding the high-frequency rail service between Toronto and Quebec City. On February 2, you did announce and held a briefing on the project and provided parliamentarians with an update on the next major step in the procurement process. I have some questions on that.
Much has been said about the high-speed rail, and many wonder why Canada is going down that route instead of a high‑frequency rail project. Could you elaborate on that decision if you can? Is it too late for course correction? I appreciate the expectations that the in-service date for the High Frequency Rail is sometime in the early 2030s, and it may be a little early to answer my question, but could you speak to our committee about the operating structure and costs of running it and the anticipated revenues or profits from the new train service? Does the government expect to recuperate some money, and how profitable can we expect it to be? For example, is VIA Rail generating some revenue? Is it profitable? If not, what would make the High Frequency Rail more profitable than what you are running at this point in time through VIA Rail?
Mr. Bijimine: Certainly. I’ll invite Martin McKay to answer some of these questions, but I’ll start. The objective at the moment is to have a high-frequency rail, but, at the same time, the challenge we issued when we came up with the request for qualifications — and the same challenge we will issue for the request for proposals — is to have the private developer partner to have sections that could be high-speed rail. The full 1,100 kilometres will not be high-speed rail, but there will be segments that will be high-speed rail. We are encouraging the industry to get to those segments.
As to your second question, the in-service date, the way we’re building the project is quite innovative. We are looking for a private developer partner to partner with government, design the project, try to get it to the next level, introduce private-sector innovation that would allow things like the high-speed rail in certain segments and, on top of that, look at ways to reduce costs but also reduce time and get to the most optimal and efficient high-frequency rail that we can achieve.
We will likely have a better sense of the exact service date once we have selected a private-sector developer and a design has been finished. We have been saying that we’re looking at early to mid-2030s for the in-service date.
On operating and profitability, at the moment, VIA is not profitable, so they do require a subsidy from the government. However, prior to the pandemic — the last five years up to 2019 — VIA was requiring less and less subsidy from the government. They were getting more and more efficient and had started introducing dynamic pricing. So our expectation is that introducing the private-sector element will help build on the good foundation that VIA has set and also take it to the next level. That’s what we’re hoping to do.
As for some of the numbers related to that, they are fairly confidential.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: I apologize for interrupting you. Time is flying by more quickly than the train. I would ask that you complete your response in writing and send it to the clerk.
Senator Dagenais: My first question is for Mr. Pilgrim.
Your department’s budget has steadily increased over the past several years, with a 26% hike this year. I also note that the number of employees in the department is expected to decrease next year from 6,422 to 6,200. Given these two elements, the increase in the budget and the decrease in staff, can you tell us what will change in the services that are provided to the public? If you had 200 extra employees, why didn’t you cut positions before to save money? Who is going to shoulder the workload of those 200 missing employees, if you want to keep offering the public the same level of service?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. It should be noted that our budget has increased by over 90% since 2021. Meanwhile, our population has increased by 3%. The increases in our budget are, for the most part, grants and contributions. We try to manage these programs as efficiently as possible.
Our departmental plan calls for an increase in our staff by next year, from 6,388 to 6,422 employees, to manage all these new programs and ensure good customer service. Customer service is certainly a priority for the department.
[English]
We have invested in technology to have client-facing interfaces that are more fluid and client-centric. Our budget is also significantly B-based, so a large portion of our funding is temporary. We are always trying to manage our population levels with the timing of our funding. The decrease next year, 2024-25, in our Departmental Plan would be aligned with decreasing our temporary funding that will be sunsetting. We’re always ramping up when new funding and new initiatives come our way. We have to ramp down when the money sunsets to ensure we remain within our budget position.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Thank you. My next question is for Transport Canada officials. I would like to talk about the Zero‑Emission Vehicle Incentive Program. This program had a budget of $92 million last year, but now it’s reached $635 million, so we’re talking about a $540-million increase.
Is this increase the result of a rigorous process to arrive at this expenditure, or have you simply responded to a political command? In summary, how will you use this money and what is the breakdown by province and territory?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. Last year, as I mentioned earlier, our budget was temporary.
[English]
The budget for zero-emission vehicles sunsetted last year. That’s why there was only $92 million in the Main Estimates, although during last year there was also a supplementary augmentation by $347 million. We did have about $420 million of budget last year compared to this year’s $635 million. The reason for the increase this year over last year is the addition of medium- and heavy-duty vehicles to the light-duty vehicles. That explains the increase.
In terms of the national distribution, it is user-specific. The provinces with additional incentive programs, such as British Columbia and Quebec, do have a higher take-up than other provinces. For example, for 2022-23, as of January 31, 10,700 folks requested incentive reimbursement in that year; the Prairies, 1,843; Ontario, 8,600; Quebec, 25,657; Atlantic Canada, 1,500; and the Northern region, 64. So we do track this very intensely. We have noticed that where there is that secondary incentive in a province, there is a bigger take-up.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Given the difficulties faced by Canadians in obtaining electric vehicles, do you believe that budget is entirely necessary?
[English]
Mr. Pilgrim: Yes. Thank you for the question.
[Translation]
Yes, it is hard to obtain a vehicle these days, but thanks to this program, zero-emission vehicle purchases have increased significantly, both in Canada and the U.S., and automakers are building more vehicles. The number of vehicles available for purchase and the different types of vehicles such as sport utility vehicles or pickup trucks are increasing in large part due to the assistance of the Government of Canada. If all the money is not spent this year, we will carry those dollars over to future years to cover the projected goals.
[English]
Senator Bovey: Thank you all for being here. I’m sorry, Mr. Pilgrim, but I’m going to carry on with Transport, if I may.
About five years ago, the Transport Committee of the Senate brought out their report on autonomous vehicles. You talked about efficient and environmentally conscious planning. Can you tell me where we are in the spending on the infrastructure to be able to accommodate autonomous vehicles? That was a big part of the report, and I wonder where this is built into the estimates.
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. Yes, the support of the autonomous vehicle industry, the technology and the legislation to allow such vehicles are paramount in our operations. Our Policy group, our Safety and Security group and our Programs group all have that top of mind. It’s spread throughout our Safety and Security group in these budgets. Perhaps I can pass it to Serge Bijimine to describe more of the legislative approvals required and support for the industry that we have been administering.
Mr. Bijimine: We call it “connected and automated vehicles.” At the moment, it’s really a nascent technology. Our focus on it has been around innovation, better understanding the innovation and upcoming innovation as well as the regulatory aspect: how we regulate those vehicles when they come on the road.
We have been to numerous labs. The technology is not as advanced as people may seem to think it is. There are still a lot of issues to be sorted out. That’s what we’re doing with the money provided — to understand it and be ready to regulate it when it comes on to the market.
As far as the infrastructure tied to that is concerned, that would be more of a Natural Resources Canada, or NRCan, question and tied to zero-emission vehicle infrastructure as well because those would be battery-operated, and the same sort of infrastructure would be needed.
Senator Bovey: If I can go to older technology, you mentioned, Mr. Pilgrim, about revitalizing transportation and high service. As a weekly user of our air services, I can say that it’s anything but efficient. For a two-and-a-half-hour flight to Winnipeg to take 19 hours and 12 hours week after week, I don’t call that revitalizing efficiency. The number of hours I waste is huge.
Where in your budgets are you working to revitalize our air transport? At the same time, you talked about regional airports. I do a lot of work with the North and I’m hearing frequently about permafrost, meaning the destruction of some of our runways in the North and the foundations of airports in the North beginning to be compromised. North and South, how do you get those of us in the South to get from one city to another? I don’t call Winnipeg-Ottawa direct via Vancouver an efficient way to get from point A to point B. Can you address the North and the South issues of efficiency and revitalization?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the questions. Airport congestion has been on the news significantly lately in Canada and across the planet. The top priority for Transport Canada remains the safety, security and efficiency of the system. We are working with the air sector quite closely — air companies, the airports, and so on — to assess the airport congestion phenomenon, to put the right resources in place, to work with our partners at the Canadian Transportation Agency, CTA; the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, CATSA; the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA; the RCMP; and other services, to make sure we are all aligned and on the same page.
We know what happened at Christmas is not acceptable. Our minister was here about a month ago to explain. The combination of a 280% increase in travel in the short period after COVID, the lack of skilled resources to administer and maintain that demand, coupled with the weather events, was a problem. We know that.
There is significant discussion, as I said. The minister held a national Air Sector Recovery Summit in November to ascertain the issues, work with industry and trade associations and unions to ensure that we are all working together to fix this problem. That is, indeed, a global problem and is very much noticeable in Canada.
Investments are being made. Committees are in place. In the interim, we’re making sure that the rules and the legislation allows for the safest and easiest transportation of Canadians.
Now, in terms of investments — your second question — we do have significant investments, and I alluded to it in my opening remarks. The Airports Capital Assistance Program, which is focused on regional airports and focuses on safety-related capital infrastructure projects, is a significant amount of money. It is $38-million base funding per year and added $186,220,000 over three years to invest in three priority levels for regional airports: airside projects, rehabilitation of runways, taxiways and aprons; airside mobility equipment, snow blowers, snowplows and sweepers; and air terminal buildings, sprinkler systems, asbestos removal and barrier-free access. That is for the smaller, regional airports.
There’s also the Airport Critical Infrastructure Program, ACIP, initiative for the larger airports. That’s about $586 million allocated to larger airports in the last few years. I’ll just get the details. It’s $500 million over six years in the Fall Economic Statement 2020 allocated to our larger airports, and Budget 2021 allocated another $82.5 million for COVID-related testing and health and safety concerns.
That money has been distributed across the country. In 2022-23, British Columbia has already received $30 million; the Prairies and Northern regions, $31 million; Ontario, $71 million; Quebec, $91 million; and Atlantic provinces, $22 million.
The money is being allocated; it’s being used. There’s great demand for this funding in both the regional and larger airports. We’re listening and working with our central agency partners to ensure we have the right funding and support to help our colleagues.
Senator Pate: Thank you to all of you for being here. My question is for Ms. Boudreau and your department.
The mandate letter of the President of the Treasury Board includes addressing “the profound systemic inequalities and disparities that remain present in the core fabric of our society,” including within the public sector.
Your 2023-24 Departmental Plan includes working with departments to ensure that the proportion of visible minorities, people with disabilities, Indigenous peoples and women in the public service meets or exceeds the workforce availability, and you also plan to “work with departments to eliminate racism in the public service.” I’m curious as to what precise measures are being taken to address these issues, how you will evaluate them and how the results will be communicated to the public? Where do we see that linked through these estimates?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you very much for the questions. I will ask my colleague Mireille Laroche to give you more information. Thank you.
Mireille Laroche, Assistant Deputy Minister, People and Culture, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: Thank you for the question.
We have a number of initiatives that are directly addressing what you described in your questions. First of all, the approach we take is very much one of co-design and collaboration with equity-seeking groups. In everything that we do, we work with employee networks within the public service to be able to meet their needs and their demands.
In terms of tangible initiatives, I’ll mention a few, but there is a long list that we could provide if you wish to have more information. We have developed over the recent year a program called “Mosaic.” Mosaic is a leadership program for equity-seeking groups who are at the — we call it — “EX minus 1 level,” which is right below executives, and it’s to help high‑potential individuals actually achieve the executive level.
We follow them. We provide them with training from the Ivey Business School in London, Ontario. We provide them with a mentor, a sponsor. We get them to do psychometric assessments, so they can get a good sense of where their strengths and weaknesses are, and we develop them in order to be able to qualify for an executive position. We’ve just launched the second cohort in that regard.
The other thing that we’re doing from a data perspective is that we are going to be launching a new self-identification questionnaire that will be far more detailed than the one we have right now to go beyond the four equity groups that we have in the act right now to have a better understanding of our population and to meet their needs.
Every year we publish and table in Parliament a report on the Employment Equity Act. I think it is going to be tabled this week, so you’ll get the latest numbers in that regard. For the first time, there will be information on Black employees in that report.
I’d be happy to provide to the committee a few more examples, if you desire. Thank you.
Senator Pate: If that information could be provided to the committee, that would be great, as well as how that information is provided in terms of the precise measurements to the public as well. It’s important for us to be able to access it but also for the general public to have access.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: I’m going to continue with the Transport Canada witnesses. I would like to know more about the coordination between the system’s electric capabilities versus the number of vehicles that are being added to the zero-emission fleet each year.
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. We are working with Natural Resources Canada to ensure that we have the electrical capacity to accommodate the increased number of vehicles.
[English]
In terms of the charging stations, right now there are about 20,000 charging stations open to the public at 8,700 locations. Natural Resources Canada has been given, in Budget 2022, $400 million toward charging infrastructure, in addition to $500 million received by the Canada Infrastructure Bank.
This will increase the number of charging stations from 20,000 to 84,500, which we feel will be commensurate to the increase in vehicle numbers. From there, we will continue to invest to make sure that folks have the incentive to keep purchasing electric vehicles and have the right infrastructure support to operate them effectively.
There is a ZEV council that has been created with Environment Canada, Natural Resources Canada and Transport Canada to ensure that our electrical infrastructure across the country, the charging capacity and the number of charging stations are aligned. We’re all working together horizontally to ensure this initiative is a success and that Canadians who do buy electric vehicles are supported in their operation.
Mr. Bijimine: I think you’ve covered it all.
[Translation]
I would add that there is a Zero-Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Council, as Mr. Pilgrim mentioned. That council includes Natural Resources Canada, which is looking at charging stations. Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada (ISED) liaises with the automotive manufacturing sector to ensure there is sufficient capacity. Environment Canada is looking at regulations and Transport Canada is looking at incentives for vehicle purchases. We’ve taken a holistic approach to make sure everything is moving at the same pace and in the same place.
Senator Moncion: Thank you for your answers. I’m more interested in the hydroelectric capacity. We are told that within a few years there will not be enough capacity if we do not invest in other sources of electricity. That’s the coordination I’m interested in.
Mr. Pilgrim: Indeed. Natural Resources Canada is in charge of this aspect of electrical capacity across Canada. There is no doubt that capacity will need to increase, given the increased use of electricity in many areas.
Senator Moncion: You spoke at length about High Frequency Rail. What are you doing for the northern regions? This follows up on Senator Bovey’s question about airports. Let’s take northern Ontario as an example. To get to Ottawa, there is one bus departure per day and one plane departure per day, when available. We have no choice but to drive to Ottawa. The same is true throughout northern Ontario, except for some small private air carriers that connect the cities.
What work is being done to increase non-automotive transportation capacity for northern Ontario and, for that matter, for the northern parts of all other provinces?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question.
[English]
The Government of Canada recognizes the importance that intercity bus travel has, not only trains and vehicles, but the importance buses have for folks across the country. Bus companies were affected quite significantly by the pandemic with some notable closures. But there have also been some notable increases and some new European and American companies coming to Canada to not only support Canadians but make money in doing so because there is potential for a thriving industry there.
In terms of northern transport, rail, there have been significant investments in the last few years in the North up to Churchill and in other areas, and also we’re working closely with provinces to ensure that national capacity of buses to allow Canadians to intersect province to province, city to city is there. It is a provincial matter, but we’re working with the provinces in this regard.
Mr. Bijimine: I think you’ve covered it all. On the air side,
[Translation]
You were talking about regional connectivity. We are holding discussions with several airlines. We’re reviewing, exploring and analyzing solutions that could be put in place, but once the airline industry fully resumes normal operations, the market will speak up and demand regional connectivity.
Presently, things are back to 80%, 90%, or 100% normal in major cities. In smaller areas, we’re still talking about 30% to 50% of the volume they had in 2019.
[English]
Senator Boehm: My question is for Treasury Board. Ms. Boudreau, you might want to call up Ms. Laroche because I’m going into the HR direction a bit specifically to follow up on my colleague Senator Pate’s question about the UN Sustainable Development Goals, or SDGs, and how they’re being implemented at the domestic level here.
SDG 5 refers to gender equality and empowerment of all women and girls. Ms. Laroche, in your previous comments we heard about mentorship and all of that for the various groups. I’m curious to know what the current percentage of women in leadership roles in the public service is, so on the EX level but also the assistant deputy minister, or ADM, level, so EX-04, EX-05, and whether you have a timeline to achieve targets in that regard.
You mentioned that under the Pay Equity Act there will be something tabled on this very shortly. What are the enforcement mechanisms there if you’re not reaching a certain level, or are there any?
Ms. Laroche: Thank you very much for the questions. In terms of the representation of the four groups — so Indigenous people, women, persons with disabilities and visible minorities — when you look at the executive group, all but Indigenous groups are above the workforce availability threshold, so at all levels. The biggest gap that we have right now is with regard to Indigenous executives. There’s significant work being done for all groups to make sure that within the pipeline, in terms of how people are progressing, that we have representation.
Right now, in terms of the groups, we are doing fairly well, but we’re still very cognizant of the fact that this is ongoing work that needs to be done in that regard.
Senator Boehm: Does that include the EX-04 and EX-05 categories?
Ms. Laroche: Yes, it does.
Senator Boehm: Across government?
Ms. Laroche: Yes, it does.
Senator Boehm: On SDG 10, which refers to advanced reconciliation with Indigenous peoples and taking action to reduce inequality, your 2023-24 Departmental Plan states that:
TBS will continue to work with departments to ensure that the proportion of visible minorities, Indigenous peoples, persons with disabilities, and women in the public service meets or exceeds their workforce availability.
But that statement does not make specific mention of reconciliation or is specific to Indigenous peoples, whereas the SDG goal is. I’m wondering what specific and concrete steps the Treasury Board is taking and will take to advance reconciliation, since this is a longer-term project across all federal departments.
Ms. Laroche: We work collaboratively with the other departments, responding, for example, to the first Call to Action, to ensure that we eliminate any discrimination and racism regarding, in particular, Indigenous peoples and Black employees.
From our perspective, we work very closely with the different Indigenous groups, employee groups, to actually advance and address their concerns within the public service, so there is an element of reconciliation.
I can give you an example that my group has done. We’ve worked with the executive group representing Indigenous executives and we’ve developed a talent management strategy to be able to develop and ensure that the talents of Indigenous executives are well known across the sector and that we can make sure they have the proper opportunities to further develop.
Senator Boehm: Is there any way to know whether self‑identification measures or participation is increasing or not? That was always a very difficult thing to measure when I was in the public service.
Ms. Laroche: Yes, it is. I mentioned it earlier to answer the previous question. We’ve revamped the self-identification questionnaire. It’s yet to be launched, but it will be done in the coming months. It aims to go broader than the four groups and to get much more information, and also explain how we’re going to use the data and for what purpose, much more explicitly than it was. We recognize that there is a bit of a trust issue for certain individuals to self-identify. That questionnaire was developed in a co-designed fashion with all the groups to make sure it responded to the needs and had the proper language. I think that will go a long way to help identify the various populations.
Senator Boehm: Thank you very much.
Senator Duncan: I’d like to thank all the witnesses who have come before us this morning. We appreciate your time and your thoughtful answers. Mr. Pilgrim, I’m sorry, but I’m going to direct my questions to you as well.
We’ve talked about the electric vehicles, the EVs. There has been a lot of discussion this morning. You’ve provided some good information to us.
I’d like to follow up on the relationship between NRCan and Transport Canada and the electric vehicle charging stations. The issue is not only capacity in our electric system; it’s also the supply, the grid. I haven’t heard you talk about that. The Senators for Climate Solutions group has recently had some terrific presentations about the need for investment in the grid.
Where does that fit in with your programs?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. As mentioned before, the ZEV Transition Council is working closely with Natural Resources and Environment Canada and so on to undertake the right studies to ensure that the grid, the charging stations match the growth that we expect and we’re striving to achieve through electric vehicles and medium- and heavy-duty vehicles as well.
There have been studies of late to determine how well we’re equipped, and it does look better than we thought in terms of Canada. I know in the States, California in particular, there has been quite a bit of news on that. It seems that our grid infrastructure, according to the studies, will be able to manage the increase brought on by the vehicles. It is something that has been continuously assessed, and we’re working with the providers to make sure that our projections on growth — ours and those of NRCan — match the capacity to deliver. It does take a certain amount of time to ramp up the electrical infrastructure, whether it’s nuclear, wind or water.
A request for information on grid readiness for EVs was undertaken in early 2022 and did reaffirm these findings. Specifically, stakeholder responses demonstrated broad recognition of the importance of grid readiness to complement the accelerated EV deployment. The report found that utilities perceived a relatively low vulnerability level associated with projected load growth. Canadian system planners communicated that they see business opportunity instead of risk or vulnerability. Again, we are watching carefully with the council in this regard.
Senator Duncan: I think the electricity association might significantly disagree with your findings in terms of capacity in the grid at this point in time.
How well equipped are you to deal with that? The grid is a big issue. It’s not just the power supply — we don’t have the grid. Particularly east-west it’s an issue, and it’s a significant issue in the North.
Mr. Pilgrim: I think I’m delving into areas beyond my level of expertise. It’s more of a Natural Resources question, so I’ll leave it to them to respond on the grid.
Senator Duncan: That’s my question. Is it Natural Resources Canada?
Mr. Pilgrim: It is. On the grid, for sure, yes.
Senator Duncan: We’ll defer to them.
If we could go back to the regional airports and airport issues. You talked about capital investment in the North, but you’re more focused on the coast, which is Nunavut and Northwest Territories. Regional airports are critical to the Yukon and to Northern Canada, period. I’d like to hear what significant capital investment is being made in regional airports. You could supply that portion in writing.
There’s also the issue of rent that’s paid at airports. There are landing fees, there’s the infrastructure and then there are the small regional airlines. The passengers, who have to travel back and forth to Ottawa and around this country, are caught in the middle. We’re paying enormous costs to fly anywhere and we don’t have the routes.
What role is Transport Canada playing in taking this complicated issue of all these players and providing better service to Canadians?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you very much for the question. On the first question, ACAP, the national Airports Capital Assistance Program, is targeted at the regional airports, which I discussed earlier. There has been significant investment. Since 1995, we’ve invested $1.2 billion nationally, with northern airports receiving over $146 million in funding for 84 projects at 32 airports.
For the Yukon specifically, we’ve invested $18.8 million in 14 projects at 3 airports; for Nunavut, $73.2 million, 39 projects at 19 airports; for Northwest Territories, $54.6 million, 31 projects at 10 airports. There has been a significant focus there.
Some specific examples: airside service at Hall Beach, $9.9 million; Coral Harbour upgrade of apron facilities, $797,000; Yellowknife purchase of snow blowers, $700,000; Fort Smith, Northwest Territories, rehabilitation of airside, $15 million.
We track all that. There has been a significant amount of money, as I’ve stated, about $150 million at 32 airports.
For your second question in terms of fees charged to clients and so on, in fairness, equality and service to Canadians, I’ll pass that over to my colleague Serge Bijimine.
Mr. Bijimine: That’s a great question. The airport system is a user-based system. That’s the way it’s been set up. There are a couple of fees. There’s the airport improvement fee, which is stacked onto the ticket; there’s the landing fee that is paid by airlines; and a number of other fees are paid.
The goal is to try to get traffic back to 2019 levels, if not more. The more traffic, the more passengers, the lower those fees. The airports have increased their fees to try to make up for past losses.
One of their requests has been to provide a bit of rent recycling. Essentially, they pay rent to the government every year, and that rent gets collected and put into the fiscal framework. One of their asks has been whether they could recycle that rent for capital projects and other things that could help the efficiency of the airport but also lower the pressure on increasing the airport improvement fees. These are things that we’re exploring with them. We haven’t made a decision yet, but the goal is to try to get to the point where the tickets for passengers are as affordable as possible. It starts with lowering some of the fees or at least lowering the pressure to increase the fees.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: If I may, I’d like to ask Ms. Robertson a question about employment insurance reform.
You are currently at the consultation stage. There were several previous consultations. I’d like to know where we stand with this reform. I’m particularly interested in the situation of seasonal workers. This is an important reality in our regions.
Ms. Robertson: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.
[English]
I’ll mention that Employment Insurance is not included in these Main Estimates. However, it’s an important part of our funding. I’d like to invite my colleague Catherine Demers, who is the policy expert on this subject.
[Translation]
Catherine Demers, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: Deputy Chair, I’m pleased to answer your question. Modernization of employment insurance is a priority for the government. There have been significant consultations over the last two years on a range of themes around modernization to look at all the issues that were identified over the years: the need for simplifying the employment insurance system, and the issues of fairness, access and adequacy and, of course, seasonal workers.
A pilot project has been extended and is still in place. Determining how we will continue to support seasonal workers was among the themes discussed in depth. All issues were discussed in depth. Reports have been produced from consultations with a wide range of experts, stakeholders and Canadians and the analysis is ongoing. The government is developing the plan announced in previous budget commitments. Once the analysis is complete, the plan will be announced. I don’t know exactly when the plan will be announced, but it is being developed.
The Deputy Chair: Could you provide our clerk with the known deadlines for the modernization?
Ms. Demers: We can provide you with information on the milestones we have reached thus far.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. We will now move on to the next round. I remind you that you each have three minutes.
[English]
Senator Marshall: I’m going to start off with a quick question for Treasury Board, but my main question is for Mr. Pilgrim.
We have the Departmental Results Reports for 2021-22, but the data sets for the Canada Revenue Agency and the Privy Council Office aren’t accessible yet. Could you follow up? I’m not looking for when they will be available but to get them on the website so we can finish our review of the Departmental Results Reports.
Ms. Boudreau: We will follow up today and come back to the committee as soon as possible.
Senator Marshall: Thank you.
Mr. Pilgrim, this is related to a question that several of my colleagues touched on. Toronto Pearson International Airport is a horrendous airport to travel through. It makes no difference whether it’s Terminal 1 or Terminal 3 or whether you’re flying domestic or international.
What specifically is the department or the minister doing to rectify the problems at Pearson International Airport? I’ve travelled through it many times. For people who travel through it only a couple of times a year, it must be a very stressful experience.
What is the department doing to improve the situation at Pearson?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. I will pass it directly to my colleague Serge.
Mr. Bijimine: Thank you for the question. There are two things we’re doing at the moment to try to rectify the situation. The first one is we set up an airport recovery operation committee, which brings together the four largest airports — Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary — as well as the two largest airlines — Air Canada and WestJet — along with NAV CANADA, CBSA and CATSA. We meet on a weekly basis to understand the specifics of the issues, concerns and bottlenecks that passengers are facing. We bring that up to the CEOs as well as our deputy ministers to try to get to the bottom of this and start the process of finding solutions. That’s the first step that we are doing, and we’re doing that on a weekly basis.
The other thing we have started doing is we are creating these smaller groups composed of CATSA — the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority — with Toronto Pearson and a CATSA group with Vancouver as well. They are doing a complete mapping of the step-by-step process, finding out where the bottlenecks are within each step of the traveller’s journey and coming up with solutions to address each one of those bottlenecks. We’re taking a very thorough approach.
In addition to that, we just launched a National Trade Corridors Fund digitization call for proposals to look at ways to digitize that journey as well.
Senator Bovey: I can tell you that there has been no noticeable improvement over the past year. It’s absolutely horrendous, so the committees haven’t seen any results yet.
Senator Gignac: I will spend one minute on my question, but the answer should be “yes” or “no,” so it will be quick. No pressure on the representative for Transport Canada.
National security should be a priority for the federal government with this procurement policy. In 2019, the U.S. Congress passed legislation that banned any future federal funding from being used to purchase transit or passenger holdings from a company owned, subsidized or directed by the Chinese government.
Since it is very well known that China has invested in facial recognition to track people, is it the intention of your department to implement the same respective policy as the U.S. for national security reasons and economic concerns to prohibit any Chinese consortiums to bid on upcoming big infrastructure projects in Canada, including the Toronto mass transit megaproject? It’s a simple “yes” or “no.”
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you.
Senator Gignac: I could give you more time, but I already spent 1 minute and 15 seconds asking my question.
Mr. Bijimine: I’ll try to give my best version of a “yes” or “no” answer.
We recently tabled a port modernization review. We had a statement in that review essentially saying that investments by certain countries will be looked at with a very stringent lens. That usually sends the message.
As for investments in the air sector and what you have just mentioned, we’re not aware of any of those companies applying. They would be subject to a very stringent security assessment.
Senator Gignac: May I interrupt you? In Toronto, you currently have four consortiums, and one is Chinese. In the U.S. it’s pretty well known that they bid 25% of the award in any competition. The U.S. Congress decided in 2019 for different reasons, such as economic concerns, national security and what is going on in geopolitics right now, so clearly they have things going on.
Is it a decision to change your procurement to prohibit any Chinese consortium from participating in the mass transit project or any other future rail projects?
Mr. Bijimine: We’ll take it back. I do think the national security rules do apply, but we’ll take that question back and provide you with an answer.
Senator Gignac: So you will provide a written answer, yes?
Mr. Bijimine: Yes, we will provide that.
Senator Gignac: Thank you.
Senator Smith: Ms. Boudreau, in the 2021-22 Departmental Results Report, the Treasury Board failed to meet its target related to timely response to access-to-information and privacy requests, as well as Canada’s regulatory system ranking.
In the 2023-24 Departmental Plan, the Treasury Board plans to:
. . . innovate in areas such as recruitment processes, capacity-building and training to identify how best to support the access to information and privacy communities. TBS expects this will help Canadians access government information more quickly.
Could you provide some specifics on what exactly is being done at the department to increase the speed of responding to access-to-information requests? How much funding is being allocated to this initiative?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for those questions. I’ll ask my colleague Paul Wagner. If we’re not able to provide you with all the answers, we will surely come back to the committee.
Senator Smith: That would be great.
Paul Wagner, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Transformation, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: Thank you for the question. Across the government, I think you have seen in the report of the ATI review that was just tabled in Parliament in December 2022 that there is a systemic issue that departments are dealing with. Specifically within Treasury Board Secretariat, I think we will be able to provide the specifics for that in writing. That’s not an area that reports through me.
What I can say, though, from a government-wide perspective is that we are hiring individuals, bringing on individuals from a community perspective and training across departments so that people can move from one department to another with similar skill sets and competencies.
The other thing we have done is implemented an online portal, which, up to today, allows 220 institutions and organizations across the government to respond to access-to-information requests, or ATIs. Instead of going department by department, that allows us to have consistency there as well.
The other thing we do is proactively publish the findings of the ATIs. A lot of times what we have seen historically is the same ATIs coming back or the same ATI going to multiple departments. Publishing those online allows for the requesters to find some of that information and then be much more specific about their searches.
We will come back with anything specific about TBS in writing, if that’s helpful.
Senator Smith: Thanks.
Senator Loffreda: My question is for Employment and Social Development Canada. I would appreciate if you could elaborate further on the grant of $43 million we see in the Main Estimates on the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, or CERB. What is this money being used for? Isn’t the CERB program inactive at this point in time?
Furthermore, what role does your department play in working with the Canada Revenue Agency and investigating emergency COVID benefits and subsidy amounts paid to Canadians who may have inadvertently received money they were ineligible for? As you know, the Auditor General released a report on this issue in the fall and urged the government to try to recuperate some of these funds.
Ms. Robertson: Thank you for the question. You have posed two questions, senator. I am going to ask my colleague Brian Leonard to respond to the $43-million grant that you referred to, but I’ll start with the second part of the question if you’ll permit me.
Certainly, all of the money for compliance and collections comes to ESDC for all of the emergency response benefit programs. We work with the CRA as our collection arm. The CRA bills us, so that’s how the money is recovered, but we’re still very active in the recovery.
After Brian has given his response, if you would like to pose more questions, my colleague Mary Crescenzi is on the screen there, and she is responsible for the compliance activities for ESDC at large. We have a lot of compliance activity.
Brian Leonard, Acting Director General, Corporate Financial Planning, and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Employment and Social Development Canada: Thank you, Karen. Thank you for the question, which is on the $43 million in grants. That is a reduction from last year’s Main Estimates, in which there was $130 million for the CERB grant.
The application deadline for CERB was September 30, 2020, but there remain outstanding claims for recipients who requested either a review of eligibility or a review of client identity credentials to ensure payments were not made erroneously. Integrity-focused work is scheduled to be completed through 2025-26. These are outstanding claims payments to Canadians who are eligible for the CERB. Thank you.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you.
Senator Duncan: Thank you again to our witnesses.
Mr. Pilgrim and Mr. Bijimine, I did not hear in your reference to a committee working on the issues around airports — you referenced working with Air Canada and WestJet — any reference to the smaller airlines that service the North, the regional airlines like Air North and Canadian North. These airlines are critical and provide important services to the regions. We have the major carriers who decide, for some unknown reason, to eliminate service to Saskatchewan, for example.
Where do these smaller airlines fit in this big picture? Again, could we have some sense that Canadians are going to see some progress in the near future in not only the service provided but the cost of that service?
Mr. Bijimine: For the smaller airlines, including Canadian North, we provided them quite a lot of money through RASP, the Remote Air Services Program, during the pandemic.
Senator Duncan: Yes, I’m aware of that part. It’s the current situation where, for example, my only option to get from Yukon is Air North — thank goodness; it’s a great airline — but Air Canada is eliminating its service. My colleagues in the East have a great deal of difficulty and they don’t have options like Air North.
When you spoke of working together with airlines, you didn’t mention those smaller regional carriers. That’s my issue.
Mr. Bijimine: I think you’re mentioning the regional connectivity, that is, being able to fly between a region and not necessarily go through either a Toronto hub or a Montreal hub.
Senator Duncan: Right.
Mr. Bijimine: We have mentioned that numerous times to the big airlines. It’s a complex issue that will require a number of actions that we’re undertaking at the moment with them. There is a labour shortage. There is a pilot shortage that exists. We’re working closely with our colleagues at ESDC. They have had the Sectoral Workforce Solutions Program to help train more pilots because airlines will put pilots on more lucrative routes, and the smaller regions typically lose out. Having more pilots should help to start address the issue.
We’re also banking on the recovery continuing to take hold. It has been a strong and a fast recovery. Our air sector has basically grown 300% in the five-month period in 2022 versus 60% for the U.S. Continuing that trajectory growth will mean more business opportunities to connect and rebuild those connections with those smaller regions.
We are also exploring other avenues to try to make this a reality. We have heard about it from numerous stakeholders. It is a problem and it is something that needs to be resolved.
Senator Duncan: Again, I hear you’re working with the larger carriers to rebuild. What about working with the regional carriers to support them?
Mr. Bijimine: We have been working with the regional carriers. One thing we have been doing with them is looking at upgrading their IT systems. If they are able to upgrade their IT systems, it may allow for some interlining with a large one. That’s something we’re also working on with the smaller carriers. It’s going to be a series of actions. It won’t be a silver bullet for regional connectivity. We have been talking with small carriers, large carriers and smaller airports. It will be a series of actions with the understanding that, ultimately, the passengers have to be there to get on the plane to be able to make it a viable business.
Senator Boehm: My question is also for Transport Canada.
Mr. Pilgrim, I am wondering about the commemoration fund for the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines tragedy, for which your department is requesting a million dollars in these Main Estimates.
As everyone remembers, this tragedy occurred on March 10, 2019, when an Ethiopian Airlines plane flying from Addis Ababa to Nairobi crashed killing all 157 passengers, including 18 Canadians. Among them were young people who had achieved United Nations Association of Canada field assignments. That was more than four years ago. Why is Transport Canada only asking for money now for a commemoration fund? What would this million dollars entail to commemorate the victims of the tragedy? Are you working, for example, with the United Nations Association of Canada in this regard?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question. I’ll pass the response over to my colleague Stephanie Hébert.
Ms. Hébert: We have been working closely with the families on the design of the program and on how we would undertake that commemoration. The program has two streams. One is a scholarship stream, and the other is a commemoration stream.
With the work that we have been able to do, overall, the entire program is $5.6 million. It’s over five years, so the money being sought is the money that we need at this juncture to be able to advance on the work that we’re doing through the scholarships and the commemoration.
I’ll have to get back to you on the specific organizations that we are working with, but we worked closely with the families to ensure that those whom we were partnering with were organizations that would honour the memories of their loved ones who tragically died.
Senator Boehm: Thank you very much. I would appreciate any additional information, if you could.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: I will continue in the same vein as Senator Duncan. Air Canada and WestJet are the two biggest players. We know that if capacity is increased for carriers in Northern Canada, those carriers ferry passengers to the major airports. Passengers are then picked up by WestJet and Air Canada. You mentioned improving information technology solutions for regional carriers.
What we’re telling you is that it can take a while for people to regain faith in air travel. Sometimes they go to the airport only to discover that their flight is cancelled. It’s all the work that needs to be done with regional carriers that is extremely important, and also the subsidies required by those regional carriers in order to get passengers to the major airports when they have connecting flights.
The question about regional transportation is what kind of work you’re doing with those carriers. You mentioned that over 28 years, from 1995 to 2022, $150 million in grants were distributed. That’s not that much money for northern Ontario and the people living there.
I’d like to know if there is a broader project underway to improve service everywhere, not just in major urban centres, but also in Canada’s regions.
Mr. Bijimine: We have projects funding airports in small towns. They do exist, and we can give you a list of projects that were funded through the National Trade Corridors Fund. Several hundred million dollars have been invested in our airports. We did the same thing through several programs during the pandemic to make sure that small airports would be ready to handle passenger traffic once normal operations resumed.
Those are the two major projects we’ve achieved. The other project we’re exploring and analyzing is talking to small and large air carriers to see if there’s a way to go about it. It’s complicated, but it’s one way to interconnect airlines. Those issues are being examined. It requires significant investment in computer technology by smaller companies and collaboration by larger companies. These are rather complex challenges; it will require a great deal of time to resolve the issue and a great deal of willingness from the industry to do so.
[English]
Senator Pate: It’s back to you, Ms. Boudreau. In addition to the issues I raised earlier, also in the mandate letter of the Treasury Board President is the whole-of-government approach to information collection, analysis, availability and publication of disaggregated data along with the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.
When the Parliamentary Budget Officer was before us, he expressed significant concerns about the lack of data collection and sharing by some government departments. I’m curious what measures you’re taking — when I say you, I mean the Treasury Board Secretariat — to ensure that departments are both collecting the data and making publicly available such disaggregated data. How do you see measures in this proposed budget supporting the expansion or the increase of that capacity?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for the question. This is really an all-of-government priority. You have named a few departments. Statistics Canada is also a big player in this regard; they received a lot of money from Budget 2021 in terms of disaggregated data. We work very closely with them.
Every time a department comes to Treasury Board asking for funding, we work closely with them in terms of their data collection plan, in terms of GBA Plus, quality of life. You asked me a few questions in the past about quality of life. This is top of mind when we do the review of Treasury Board submissions to make sure that it is clear and that departments will be able to report back to Canadians via their Departmental Plans, or DPs, and Departmental Results Reports, or DRRs.
If you want any specific measures, I can come back to you, but, en termes génériques, that’s something that we work on constantly, not only with departments but also with central agencies. Our colleagues at the Privy Council Office and Finance make sure that we are all aligned because it is a continuum from a budget proposal to a Treasury Board submission and, after that, obviously, to the estimates that you have in front of you.
Senator Pate: Are there some specific measures in those Main Estimates that you would point to that show the increased impetus or potential to enhance what has been done up until now?
Ms. Boudreau: Certainly. We’d have to go department by department, but we can provide you, maybe, with the list of the five biggest departments that have money in order to do that work. But as I said, Statistics Canada is a big player in that regard.
Senator Pate: Whatever you could provide to help illuminate that more clearly would be helpful. Thank you.
Ms. Boudreau: Absolutely.
Senator Bovey: Again, I thank all of you. My question is for Ms. Robertson.
I know you managed security payments to seniors and do so within the challenges of the wider system. Many gaps were uncovered during COVID, very real concerns. Can you explain how your funding has been addressing Canada’s role within the United Nations convention on the rights of older persons?
Ms. Robertson: It would be my pleasure to answer that question. I just have to defer to see which colleague would be an expert on that. I am not an expert on the UN convention, sorry. Elisha Ram, my colleague. Thank you.
Elisha Ram, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: Thank you for the question. Senators, it’s a pleasure to be with you today.
Employment and Social Development Canada has a number of programs that support financial security for seniors, including Old Age Security, Guaranteed Income Supplement and the allowances which are included in the Main Estimates. As well, there are other programs, for example, Canada Pension Plan, which is its own program with its own source of funds paid for by contributions of employees and businesses.
Through the provision of these payments, we help ensure that seniors, both those who have a history of employment in Canada as well as those who have significant time spent in the country and have made contributions to our society and to our economy, have a secure source of funds that they can rely on from year to year.
You have seen in these Main Estimates that amounts are going up for these programs, representing both the impact of inflation — because these programs are indexed to inflation — and the increases in the number of older people in our society, which means we have more claimants claiming benefits from year to year.
Through the combination of these programs, as well as consultations that we have on a regular basis with individual seniors and with groups who represent their interests, we are able to help ensure that older people in Canada can live with dignity.
Senator Bovey: Does that include care homes?
Mr. Ram: Individuals in care homes who have access to these programs are supported as well.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: We may be shaking things up, but we’ll try to get through this safely.
Senator Dagenais: My last question is for Ms. Boudreau. It’s a very simple question.
The pandemic has surely significantly changed the office space requirements for federal employees. Can you tell us about the estimated impacts on office space needs and what your responsibility is when it comes to achieving savings? After all, many people now work from home.
Finally, if you have any numbers, please provide them in writing.
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for the question, senator.
We don’t have any numbers to share with you at this time, because the department responsible for office space is Public Services and Procurement Canada. I don’t know whether its officials will be called upon to testify before you on that subject, but that question should be addressed to them.
As you mentioned, there have been significant changes, such as the two-to-three day rule, which we’re now implementing with all departments. From an office space reduction perspective, I would refer you to Public Services and Procurement Canada for more details on that matter.
Senator Dagenais: Thank you very much.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, everyone.
We have reached the end of our time and we conclude this meeting. Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing today. It’s much appreciated.
[Translation]
Before we adjourn, I will ask the witnesses to submit their written responses to the clerk by next Tuesday, April 4.
I would also like to inform honourable senators that our next meeting will be held tomorrow, Wednesday, March 22, at 6:45 p.m. At that time, we will continue our consideration of the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024.
(The committee adjourned.)