THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 10, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met with videoconference this day at 6:46 p.m. [ET] for the consideration of Supplementary Estimates (C) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024.
Senator Percy Mockler (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I wish to welcome all senators, as well as the viewers across the country who are watching the Finance Committee on sencanada.ca.
[Translation]
My name is Percy Mockler, and I am a senator from New Brunswick and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance. I’d like to ask my colleagues to introduce themselves, starting with the senator to my left.
Senator Gignac: Clément Gignac from Quebec. Welcome, everyone, to this historic evening. The deputy chair has asked me to pay tribute to the chair in honour of his upcoming retirement. This will be his last meeting as chair of the committee. We will come back to that later.
[English]
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Senator Patti LaBoucane-Benson, Treaty 6 territory, Alberta.
[Translation]
Senator Oudar: Manuelle Oudar from LaSalle, Quebec.
Senator Loffreda: Tony Loffreda from Quebec. Welcome.
Senator Galvez: Good evening. Rosa Galvez from Quebec.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion from Ontario.
[English]
Senator Kingston: Joan Kingston, New Brunswick.
Senator Ross: Krista Ross, New Brunswick.
Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Marshall: Elizabeth Marshall, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Smith: Larry Smith, Quebec.
The Chair: Honourable senators, today we will resume our study on the expenditures set out in Supplementary Estimates (C) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024, which was referred to this committee on February 26, 2024, by the Senate of Canada.
[Translation]
Honourable senators, we are pleased to welcome officials from five Canadian departments.
[English]
I understand that five officials will be making opening remarks and that the others will help to answer. When you speak, please introduce yourselves.
[Translation]
Let’s welcome Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. Next we have Christopher Veilleux, Chief Financial Officer at the Department of Finance Canada.
We also welcome Nathalie Manseau, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, and Philippe Thompson, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services Canada. Finally, we have with us Cheri Crosby, Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance, and Chief Financial Officer with the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.
[English]
Welcome and thank you for accepting our invitation to appear before the Finance Committee on your budgets.
Ms. Boudreau, you have the floor, followed by Mr. Christopher Veilleux.
Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: I would like to acknowledge the territory we are on this evening is the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin people, and I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here today to discuss the 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C).
[Translation]
Before I get into the details of the 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C), I would like to describe the role of the supplementary estimates in the overall estimates process.
The purpose of the supplementary estimates is to present information on additional government spending needs that were not well enough defined before the main estimates were laid out or that were later amended to take into account changes in programs and services.
Mr. Chair, Supplementary Estimates (C) are the third and final supplementary estimates for fiscal year 2023-24.
[English]
In total, these estimates described $13.2 billion in additional funding. Of this amount, $8.9 billion was for additional voted spending, which was later approved through Appropriation Act No. 5, 2023-24. This brought the total voted authorities for 2023-24 to $248.2 billion, an increase of 3.7% compared to what had previously been approved in 2023-24.
The major voted items in Supplementary Estimates (C) are: $1.2 billion for the Treasury Board Secretariat for compensation adjustments. This funding will be used to compensate departments and agencies for negotiated salary adjustments for recent collective agreements.
The costs arise from agreements concluded and terms and conditions updated from May to December 2023, including one-time lump sum payments: $818.1 million for Indigenous Services Canada for implementing reforms to the First Nations Child and Family Services Program; $803.9 million, again for Indigenous Services Canada, for continued implementation of Jordan’s Principle; $590.9 million for the Department of National Defence for the Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft project; $510 million for the Department of National Defence for the Strategic Tanker Transport Capability aircraft project; $507.3 million for the Windsor-Detroit Bridge Authority for the Gordie Howe International Bridge project.
[Translation]
Supplementary Estimates (C) also include an increase of $4.3 billion in forecast statutory spending.
Statutory expenditures are approved by Parliament through separate legislation and do not require additional approval. Planned statutory expenditures are presented in the estimates documents for information purposes only. The $4.3 billion includes updated forecasts for interest costs, student financial assistance and seniors’ benefits from the 2023 Fall Economic Statement, as well as a fiscal stabilization payment to the Province of Alberta.
[English]
Mr. Chair, in keeping with the government’s commitment to transparency, I would note that additional detail and context — beyond what is contained in the tabled documents — is available online.
Reporting tools such as GC InfoBase and the Open Government Portal allow users to easily see the authorities approved by Parliament and indicate how public funds are being invested.
Mr. Chair, that concludes my overview. We look forward to your questions.
The Chair: Thank you.
Christopher Veilleux, Chief Financial Officer, Department of Finance Canada: Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to present the 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C) on behalf of the Department of Finance.
I begin by acknowledging that I am speaking to you from the traditional, unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin peoples. Joining me today are other departmental officials to assist in providing a more in-depth perspective on the rationales and policies supporting the numbers within these estimates.
As you know, the department supports the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance by developing policies and providing advice to the government with the goal of creating a healthy and resilient economy for all Canadians.
The 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C) reflect a departmental budgetary increase of $3.8 billion, stemming from an $8.9 million increase in Vote 1 Program expenditures and a $3.8 billion increase in statutory spending. They also reflect a $1.4 billion increase in non-budgetary expenditures. Given these increases, the department’s total proposed authorities to date are $137.4 billion.
The increase of $8.9 million in Vote 1 Program expenditures relates primarily to funding for Indigenous engagement on the Trans Mountain Expansion project and funding to strengthen Canada’s sanctions capacity and leadership.
Statutory expenditures are not included in the appropriation bill as they have already been approved by Parliament through enabling legislation; however, they are included in the estimates documents for information.
The statutory expenditures reflect a net increase of $3.8 billion which is mainly attributed to interest on unmatured debt and payments to the provinces and territories. The forecast for interest on unmatured debt in 2023-24 has increased by $3.2 billion, reflecting revised projections of interest rates.
The interest payments on unmatured debt will be made over the course of the year in Canada’s market debt. This is represented by outstanding Government of Canada bonds, treasury bills and retail debt, such as Canada Savings Bonds.
Other interest costs increased by $1 million which reflects the revised interest rate expectations as indicated in the 2023 Fall Economic Statement.
Other interest costs represent the interest on liabilities for federal public service pension plans, deposit and trust accounts and other specified purpose accounts.
A payment of $576.5 million was made as part of the federal government’s Fiscal Stabilization program. This program provides financial assistance to any province facing year-over-year declines in their revenues resulting from extraordinary economic downturns.
Statutory subsidies increased by $1.9 million as a result of the 2021 Census of Population data. These subsidies are annual grants paid to the provinces as a result of agreements entered into upon their joining Canada.
There are also decreases in recoveries of $61.6 million related to the Alternative Payments for Standing Programs and $13.8 million related to the Youth Allowances Recovery. The decrease in the latest estimates reflects a downward revision in the estimate of national basic federal tax. As a result, the federal government will recover less from Quebec than what had been estimated in the Supplementary Estimates (A), 2023-24.
The non-budgetary increase of $1.4 billion is a result of payments to the Canada Growth Fund to purchase shares pursuant to the 2022 Fall Economic Statement Implementation Act. The amount is to cover an initial investment from the Canada Growth Fund, including a carbon credit offtake agreement and start-up costs.
Mr. Chair, this concludes my overview of these Supplementary Estimates (C) for the Department of Finance. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee members may have. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Nathalie Manseau, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me begin by acknowledging that we are meeting today on the traditional, unceded territories of the Anishinaabe Algonquin people.
[Translation]
I am pleased to appear before the committee as Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer of the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship.
[English]
I’d like to begin by stating that more than 114 million people are displaced around the world. This puts significant pressures on global immigration and protection systems. Canada remains committed to supporting refugees and displaced people while upholding the integrity of our immigration system.
The department sought $573 million in Supplementary Estimates (C) to support the needs of provincial and municipal partners, as well as asylum claimants and newcomers to Canada. Funds will help us provide housing for asylum claimants, uphold our humanitarian commitments to those fleeing war and conflict, and continue the work to improve Canada’s immigration system.
The Supplementary Estimates (C) sought approval of $362 million for the Interim Housing Assistance Program, which is in addition to the $212 million announced earlier this year. The program reimburses other levels of government for costs incurred in the housing of asylum claimants. These funds are going primarily to communities with the highest number of asylum claimants, and include up to $240 million for Toronto and up to $150 million for Quebec.
In addition to supporting these communities, the department has taken steps to help reduce housing pressures and the misuse of our asylum system. The minister recently announced that Mexican citizens travelling by air on a Mexican passport would need to obtain a visitor visa to travel to Canada, unless they have held a Canadian visa in the past 10 years or they hold a valid U.S. non-immigrant visa. Travellers who meet these conditions will be able to apply for an electronic travel authorization.
New funding in these estimates will also help increase interim housing capacity and help reduce the risk of homelessness for this vulnerable population by extending interim housing in federal hotels with an additional $103 million. This program helps alleviate pressures on shelters and social housing while we work on longer-term solutions for asylum claimants. As an example, since September 2023, the program allowed for the transfer of over 3,200 eligible asylum claimants from shelters and churches in Toronto to IRCC temporary accommodations.
[Translation]
To support our close working relationship with the Government of Quebec, the federal government is committing an additional $48.3 million to Quebec’s immigration system under the Canada-Quebec Accord on Immigration, bringing funding for 2023-24 to $775.1 million. Since 2015, the federal government has allocated $5.5 billion under the agreement to support immigration, and settlement services and programs.
We are also increasing funding for the Action Plan for Official Languages by $12.6 million. The funding will support ambitious, realistic and achievable targets to bring the level of francophone newcomers outside Quebec to 6% in 2024, 7% in 2025 and 8% in 2026.
[English]
The Supplementary Estimates (C) also sought approval of $11 million for Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy to support the International Students Program, visa centres and the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada; $25 million to stabilize a passport program; and $6.7 million to fund a new agriculture and fish processing stream within the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
With the funding set out in Supplementary Estimates (C), Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada will continue to support the long-term economic needs of employers and communities, implement announced programs and service improvements and reduce wait times, support stabilizing annual immigration levels and improve our services to Canadians and newcomers.
Thank you. I would be happy to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Thompson, to be followed and completed by Ms. Crosby.
Philippe Thompson, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the invitation to discuss 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C) for Indigenous Services Canada. I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are meeting today on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, I’d like to take this opportunity to say what an honour it is to be here this evening for the reasons Senator Gignac has expressed. It is a great pleasure to take part in the committee’s work. I wanted to thank you personally.
Since its inception in 2017, the primary mandate of the department has been to improve the quality of services delivered to Indigenous peoples and communities. To deliver on this mandate, we must continue to work closely with our Indigenous partners to close the socio-economic gaps and help improve their well-being.
I will now provide some examples of our progress to date, along with key 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates (C) items.
In the area of health, close to 675,000 clients accessed the Non-Insured Health Benefits Program, which is approximately 74% of eligible clients.
Between July 2016 and January 2024, more than 4.48 million products, services and supports were approved under Jordan’s Principle.
With respect to Jordan’s Principle, within Supplementary Estimates (C), $807.3 million is intended for the continued implementation of Jordan’s Principle, which will ensure First Nations children can access the health care, social services and education products they need.
[English]
In support of children and families, the historic $23.3 billion final settlement agreement was reached in April 2023 to compensate those harmed by the discriminatory underfunding of the First Nations Child and Family Services Program and narrow definition of Jordan’s Principle.
Since 2020, the department has continued to support the exercise of jurisdiction by Indigenous governing bodies. Six coordination agreements and one bilateral agreement related to the delivery of child and family services have been concluded, with discussions ongoing for another 18 coordination agreements.
To support education outcomes: 10 regional education agreements were concluded, supporting close to 25,000 students in five provinces; 206 First Nations were covered by transformative education models such as regional education agreements — an increase from 184 in 2021-22; 517 First Nations elementary and secondary programs were in place, supporting close to 114,150 First Nation students on- and off-reserve.
Within Supplementary Estimates (C), $55 million will allow the Government of Canada to meet its commitment to keep provincially comparable funding levels for First Nations elementary and secondary education on reserve.
In response to natural disasters: Climate-related emergencies have been increasing in frequency and severity, which has put an increased demand for emergency mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery funding. From 2012 to 2023, the Emergency Management Assistance Program, amongst other activities, has reimbursed more than $808 million in response costs and more than $545 million in recovery costs.
Furthermore, $260 million is included in Supplementary Estimates (C) to reimburse First Nations and emergency management service providers for eligible response and recovery activities over the 2023-24 fiscal year.
[Translation]
In addition to permanent funding to address priorities in supporting infrastructure operations, targeted investments continue to work toward closing socio-economic gaps.
I look forward to discussing any aspects of these estimates with you and welcome your questions regarding my presentation. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Ms. Crosby, over to you.
Cheri Crosby, Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance, and Chief Financial Officer, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces: Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I want to thank you for inviting me to present Supplementary Estimates (C) for fiscal year 2023-24 on behalf of the Department of National Defence.
[English]
I, too, would like to acknowledge that we live and work on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people, both past and present, the traditional guardians of this land, to whom I pay respect.
I am joined by the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister of Materiel, Nancy Tremblay, who would be happy to join us if there are tricky questions.
I have prepared a brief statement, and after that, I’ll be happy to take your questions.
The Department of National Defence is requesting $2.2 billion through Supplementary Estimates (C). This will increase the department’s overall authorities to over $31 billion for the 2023-2024 fiscal year.
To start, let me emphasize that one of the department’s major priorities is ensuring our military members have the tools and equipment they need to carry out the vital tasks that we ask of them.
This commitment is evident in the estimates, where two thirds of the requested funds — or $1.5 billion — is related to advancing capital acquisition projects.
[Translation]
National Defence is requesting $591 million to fund the initial acquisition phase of up to 16 Poseidon aircraft for the Royal Canadian Air Force. This purchase will allow Canada to credibly defend its interests, at home and abroad, and meet the Canadian Armed Forces’ need to identify, detect, track and potentially confront advanced surface and subsurface threats.
[English]
National Defence is also requesting $510 million to fund the initial acquisition phase and conversion of five used Airbus aircraft and four new Airbus A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport aircraft. These aircraft will perform strategic airlift missions, which will enable the Canadian Armed Forces to conduct multiple tasks, such as airlifting military personnel and cargo, medical evacuations, in-flight refuelling of other aircraft, disaster response and more. These aircraft will enable Canada to meet future challenges and ongoing commitments to collective defence with our allies through NATO and NORAD operations.
National Defence is also requesting $396 million for various Canadian Armed Forces missions and operations. These include: Operation REASSURANCE, which supports NATO’s assurance and deterrence measures in Central and Eastern Europe; Operation HORIZON, which implements elements of Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy; Operation UNIFIER, Canada’s military training mission in Ukraine; Operation ARTEMIS, the Canadian Armed Forces’ participation in counterterrorism and maritime security operations across the Middle East; and Operation HELIOS, to help restore security in Haiti.
[Translation]
National Defence is requesting $250 million to initiate a donation to Ukraine of 50 Canadian-made armoured vehicles and medical evacuation vehicles. In addition, $132 million is being requested to replenish ammunition and equipment donations to Ukraine.
[English]
These estimates also include $11 million in transfers to other government organizations in support of National Defence-related matters and priorities, and, of course, an increase in statutory authorities of $59 million for legislated items, including employee benefit plans.
[Translation]
In conclusion, Mr. Chair, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces continue to deliver on our core national mandate, while ensuring financial accountability and effective resource management.
[English]
I would be pleased to answer any further questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Crosby.
Senator Marshall: I’m going to start with Treasury Board, Ms. Boudreau. This relates to the Main Estimates. There is no PDF version of the Main Estimates, and it causes much grief to many people. Can you tell us why it’s not on the website? It’s a document — the PDF version — that we use quite extensively in our work. Can you tell us why it’s not there anymore and whether you could make arrangements to put it on your website?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you very much for the question. It is a question of accessibility. That’s why the document is not provided any longer, because it is not accessible to all Canadians. The Treasury Board Secretariat made the decision this year to remove all PDF documents. It’s not only the Main Estimates, it’s all the documents that we were putting on the website. You will not find PDF documents any longer because it does not follow the Accessible Canada Act. That’s the reason.
Senator Marshall: It doesn’t follow the Accessible Canada Act?
Ms. Boudreau: That’s correct.
Senator Marshall: I would think it actually prevents people from accessing the information.
Ms. Boudreau: You will find the information in other formats, but the one in PDF has been removed from the website because it’s not respecting the act.
Senator Marshall: It does not comply with the act?
Ms. Boudreau: It does not.
Senator Marshall: Do you know what is going to happen with the other departments? For example, there are PDF statutes of all the other statutes there. Are we going to lose access to those also?
Ms. Boudreau: I can’t speak for the other departments, senator, but as far as we are concerned Treasury Board Secretariat made the decision.
Senator Marshall: Who made the decision? I’m trying to get a handle on who the next person I go to. It’s not you, obviously.
Ms. Boudreau: That would be me. I will be following up for you.
Senator Marshall: Would you? It causes much grief for us.
Ms. Boudreau: The short answer is we’re not following the Accessible Canada Act by putting a PDF document on the website.
Senator Marshall: My questions are general in nature. The Auditor General did an audit of the Benefits Delivery Modernization program, or BDM, in Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, and you have probably read the audit report. It’s a $2.5 billion project, and it’s the largest project ever undertaken by the government. I was under the impression that they were going to go back and ask Treasury Board for an increase in our budget from $2.5 billion to whatever. Has there been an increase in that budget for that system?
Ms. Boudreau: That’s a question that should be asked to the department. So BDM is part of the ESDC. ESDC would be in a better position to answer your question.
Senator Marshall: But Treasury Board would have to approve it?
Ms. Boudreau: Absolutely. All the information you have in any estimates document is because it has been approved before by Treasury Board ministers.
Senator Marshall: That’s the largest system. What is the next largest system being developed by the government now?
Ms. Boudreau: I don’t know if my colleague Mr. Burt can answer that question.
Senator Marshall: It’s very challenging to find out because the systems aren’t listed by projects. The money for the systems are in different accounts, in different main objects.
Stephen Burt, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Digital Policy and Performance, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: We have a variety of such big digital transformation projects.
Senator Marshall: Just give me the next biggest ones.
Mr. Burt: I can’t put hand on heart and tell you how they rank in dollar amounts, but in terms of complexity and the oversight that we provide from the Office of the Chief Information Officer — I should say my name is Stephen Burt, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Digital Policy and Performance, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat — the next most complex and probably the most expensive one is the Digital Platform Modernization, or DPM, in Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.
Senator Marshall: If I were interested in looking for information on that, would I be able to find it on the government website?
Mr. Burt: You would be able to find it on the government website, that’s correct.
Senator Marshall: Thank you. My next question is for Indigenous Services Canada and these are questions that are general in nature. Mr. Thompson, we have spoken many times about the various settlements. We were talking about child welfare, and the last time you came, you gave us an update.
That money has been disbursed now, and has it been disbursed by a third party?
Mr. Thompson: It has been disbursed and is currently in a trust. The next step is to determine what the compensation framework will be for the money to be disbursed, but it’s not in the hand of the departments any more.
Senator Marshall: So it’s gone.
Mr. Thompson: It’s in the hands of the parties involved, and the compensation framework will now need to be approved before the disbursements start.
Senator Marshall: Who approves that? Your department?
Mr. Thompson: It’s the federal court.
Senator Marshall: Are you able to tell us the name of the trustees or organization that disburse it?
Mr. Thompson: The organization that administers the trust is Deloitte.
Senator Marshall: We know that. What other ones are there? I always find it challenging to find out what the big settlements are. I think there was one in Crown-Indigenous Relations. I’m just trying to get a handle on where the big money is going.
Mr. Thompson: This is correct. When we appeared at the committee last, I was with my colleague from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, and the majority of the settlements are now with them. At Indigenous Services Canada, we have a number of small settlements. We could provide what we have on our lists, but the big one is the child one.
Senator Marshall: If you can provide the list, that would be very helpful.
The Chair: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: I’d like to continue with the Indigenous sector. You mentioned the coordination agreements. You have 6 for child and family services and 18 in progress. How many do you plan to establish?
Mr. Thompson: Many such agreements are currently being negotiated. So a number of communities have expressed a desire to have contribution agreements.
The tables are active. That’s why, in the estimates, we currently have the amounts you see in the Supplementary estimates to be able to continue providing the service. I don’t have the exact figures for the negotiations under way. We can provide you with that information. Obviously, the goal is to conclude the agreements as quickly as possible so that the communities can take control of their early childhood and family services as soon as possible.
Senator Moncion: Is this based on Bill C-35 that was approved for child care and the whole sector or for another program?
Mr. Thompson: For jurisdiction over children’s services, it’s Bill C-92.
Senator Moncion: Sorry, I had the wrong number; okay.
You also talked about the Emergency Management Assistance Program and amounts of $8.8 million for emergencies and $5.3 million in recovery. Did I understand you correctly?
Mr. Thompson: This year, in the estimates, for the Emergency Management Assistance Program, we have a budget of $260 million that has been approved. This is for reimbursements. The figures I gave you in my presentation covered several years. It was the cumulative total for each of the years in which we issued refunds.
This year, the department’s total budget is $373 million. When we look at the budgets in the Supplementary Estimates (C), it’s almost always at this time of year, since we reimburse the communities for the costs they have incurred in managing the year’s emergencies. This $260 million is set aside to make reimbursement on the program for the amounts received for the current year.
Senator Moncion: Okay. Thank you very much.
My next question is for the Department of National Defence. You mentioned the purchase of five used Airbus aircraft. Could you go over the amounts and specify what they will be used for? I picked up the words airlifting, disaster recovery and refueling.
Ms. Crosby: Thank you for the question.
[English]
To begin with, a strategic tanker plays many roles, and actually we are purchasing up to as many as nine. We have purchased two already, and four more are coming. They play a key role in the North, as we do a number of things. Actually, I did list them out, didn’t I? We refuel. We also do medical evacuations. We do disaster response, as well, getting equipment and material there. We do airlifting of personnel and cargo. These are very big airplanes.
Senator Moncion: And you buy them used. How used are “used”? How old is “old”?
Ms. Crosby: Actually, this is new territory for us. The pandemic actually gave us an opportunity to have a look at material that wasn’t normally available. We actually did do some research and found some very good used aircraft, just two, I believe, that we purchased. Ms. Tremblay can talk more about this. We have purchased and refurbished those.
We also have funding, overall about $10 billion, and we will purchase up to nine, most of which will be new.
Senator Moncion: What is the life expectancy for these planes?
Nancy Tremblay, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces: For the strategic transportation and tanker capability, the total number of aircraft we will be buying is nine.
[Translation]
A total of five will be used. Two have already been delivered — one at the end of last year and the other one in February this year. Three used ones are still to come. Four will be purchased new from Airbus.
We thoroughly inspected the used aircraft we purchased to ensure they were in good enough condition to be used by the Canadian Armed Forces.
Senator Moncion: What is the expected lifespan?
Ms. Tremblay: Over 30 years.
Senator Moncion: Okay. Thank you.
Senator Gignac: My first question is for Ms. Boudreau. It’s always a pleasure to see you again. I even think that the chair wanted to make us happy by inviting you to this historic evening.
Could you give us an update on the collective agreements? What percentage has already been settled? How many remain to be settled? What has been the average rate of pay increase that has been granted?
Ms. Boudreau: My colleague Carole Bidal will be able to answer your question, senator.
Senator Gignac: Thank you.
Carole Bidal, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Employee Relations and Total Compensation, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: Good evening, senator.
So far, 17 collective agreements have been provisionally concluded or signed for the central public administration, as well as 15 other collective agreements in separate agencies — representing 10 separate agencies. So it’s currently a matter of 248,000 employees, or 82% of the entire population of unionized employees, who currently have a settled, signed or provisional agreement.
Senator Gignac: I have another question for you, Ms. Boudreau, and feel free to answer it in writing. You’re not talking about politicians, but about public servants. The size of the public service has increased by more than 40% since 2015. In a February 2024 report, the Fraser Institute was rather critical, saying that the federal government had not provided better access to programs and that the increase in the size of the public service had not translated into tangible, concrete results.
In the private sector, there are what are called KPIs, which stands for key performance indicators. Can you explain what the Treasury Board does to validate the performance of the Canadian public sector? That’s my question from 10,000 feet up, and it’s not a political one. What dashboard is used to measure productivity and various indicators, as in the private sector?
Thank you.
Ms. Boudreau: The federal government has a policy called the policy on results, which was introduced in 2015. We are in the process of reviewing it. According to our agreements, an update is always made after five years. This policy is very clear from the point of view of results.
Every time a new program is announced in a budget or economic statement, after the announcement, departments come to the Treasury Board to get the funds. The Treasury Board’s role is linked to the implementation of the program. When we receive the information, we look at implementation, how long it will take and how many employees will be needed. This is the verification work we do before the money is entrusted to the department.
If you want a more complete answer, we can also send you a written response.
Senator Gignac: I have been on this committee for only two years. However, I’m trying to see whether, as parliamentarians, we need to do the work department by department to understand or whether there is something that is centralized at the federal level. In the private sector, you can reduce staff in one division and increase staff in another. That’s the private sector. It’s different in the public sector. Are there any measures to guide us or what we have at hand are departmental results that are published?
Ms. Boudreau: You’re right; the departmental results are published. However, you can go to the management tool I mentioned earlier, GC InfoBase. You’ll be able to see the results for the federal government as a whole and then go into more detail for the organization you’re interested in. You’ll see the results and the financial and human resources that departments have to deliver their programs.
Senator Gignac: When I look at the numbers by department, the percentages of success or performance vary greatly from one department to another. There is no impact on the appropriations allocated the following year, whether the departments have been successful or not. Where does the arbitration take place? We’re looking at this and we’re still surprised that it’s so uneven among departments. Some perform very well, others less so, but there is no real impact on the appropriations allocated the following year.
Ms. Boudreau: I’d like to take a moment to talk about performance versus non-performance. Sometimes it’s necessary to determine why certain results weren’t achieved or why information isn’t available. If I take the example of COVID-19, at the time, there were a number of programs for which the decision was made not to track results by results because other issues were more pressing at that time. Second, some data are not always available on an annual basis, such as the census. It’s important to be careful; sometimes data can’t be submitted to give a clearer picture.
It’s also important to take into consideration that when people come to Treasury Board of Canada with their results…. As I said earlier, we play a challenge role. If they come with results that are too easy to achieve, and 100% is achieved at the end of the year, it’s not any better, either. You have to have results that are difficult or more difficult to achieve, and I wouldn’t say that’s really a negative thing or not good enough.
Senator Gignac: That’s reassuring. You know when it’s time to question the situation.
Ms. Boudreau: Absolutely.
[English]
Senator Smith: Ms. Boudreau, I want to follow up with Senator Gignac’s question. Maybe you can help me out here. You’ve just updated us on the number of negotiations updated or concluded. The question is, what sort of progress has the government made in terms of negotiating a return to the office? I’m wondering if you have any updates that you can share with us in terms of getting public servants to come back to their offices. If you can help me out with that, that would be great.
Carole Bidal, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Employee Relations and Total Compensation, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat: My name is Carole Bidal, I’m the senior ADM responsible for Employee Relations and Total Compensation sector at the Office of the Chief Human Resources Office, or OCHRO.
On December 15, 2022, as you know, the federal public service published the direction on prescribed presence in the workplace, which required all core public administration employees, about 270,000 people, to work on-site at least two to three days each per week or 40% to 60% of their regular schedule. This common hybrid work model was fully implemented by April 1, 2023.
Now, through recent labour negotiations, the employer and some bargaining agents signed letters of agreement on telework that sit outside of collective agreements. These letters of agreement have no impact on the hybrid work model, so that continues to be applied notwithstanding those agreements. In the fall of 2023, deputy heads did complete a departmental profile questionnaire which was issued by OCHRO to assess ongoing operationalization of this hybrid work model.
Data from that 2023 profile indicates continued progress with operationalizing the direction across the enterprise. Ninety per cent of organizations require at least two on-site days per week or 40% of employees’ time on-site, with a further 10% of organizations requiring at least three on-site days per week or 60% of time on-site.
Deputy heads remain accountable for verifying attendance and maintaining human resources data for their organizations. Verification regimes can include using turnstile data, attendance reports or IP login data to assess whether employees are reporting on-site as per the direction. The Office of the Chief Human Resource Officer is continuing to work with organizations to verify compliance at the enterprise level.
Finally, at the individual employee level, managers are responsible for monitoring performance and presence in the workplace. No terms and conditions of employment have changed, and the underpinning legal framework is also unchanged. The designated workplace of employees continues to be the default location of work.
Senator Smith: Have you set up tracking mechanisms like performance indicators to see how these changes have been implemented? What type of results are you getting from that at this particular time?
Ms. Bidal: Yes, as I indicated earlier, the responsibility for the implementation falls on the responsibility of deputy heads, and they are accountable for finding different ways to be able to measure presenteeism in the workplace and to report back on that.
Senator Smith: In the media there’s been some concern that public servants are potentially dissatisfied with their work arrangements. Have you had any feedback as you’ve reviewed the situation of your implementation of this new process?
Ms. Bidal: We are continuing to work very closely with departments and bargaining agents to identify issues as they arise in the context of the workplace and working diligently to resolve those issues as they arise.
Senator Smith: Do you have checkpoints that you’re going to use to measure the actual progress, and will you be able to quantify that actual progress so that we could find out exactly where you stand?
Ms. Bidal: Yes. Deputies are being asked to monitor it with respect to their individual organizations and to report back to OCHRO as required.
Senator Smith: Do you have a reporting date or dates?
Ms. Bidal: It is ongoing. We can provide you with the information.
Senator Smith: It would be interesting to see how you are progressing.
Ms. Bidal: Absolutely.
Senator Smith: Maybe we can go back to Mr. Thompson and Indigenous Services Canada.
In respect of the $818 million in funding for the implementation of reforms to the First Nations Child and Family Service Program, Indigenous Services Canada, or ISC, did not publish departmental results as of 2021-22 on various performance indicators. I’m just wondering if you can help me out, Mr. Thompson, with this — relating to First Nations Child and Family Services, including no results for the percentage of First Nations children on reserve in care, no results for the percentage of children in care who are placed with a family member, and no results for the percentage of First Nations communities offering family support services aimed at keeping families together. I’m just wondering with the implementation and all the work that you’re doing, where are you with these particular measurements?
Mr. Thompson: As part of the settlement for the compensation, there was an agreement that there would be a negotiation on the long-term reform of the ISC’s First Nations Child and Family Services Program. As part of the negotiations on the long-term reform, we have made the commitment to co-development a performance measurement framework with communities. The work is ongoing. It is part of the work we’re doing right now on long-term reform. At the moment, we’re still providing services to the program that we have in place, but we are currently negotiating on the long-term reform, and this will include a performance management framework that communities will be in agreement with.
Senator Smith: What is the time frame?
Mr. Thompson: It’s ongoing. We are negotiating, and we want to complete the negotiation as soon as possible. This is happening as we speak, and it could be any time.
The Chair: Mr. Thompson, on the question asked by Senator Smith, if you feel that you want to add information to that question in writing through the clerk, we would appreciate that, so you can look at that question. Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Galvez: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’d like to go on record as saying that I very much appreciate the way you run this committee. I’m going to miss you a lot when you’re gone.
[English]
My question concerns the Canada Growth Fund. I think that is for Finance. In these Supplementary Estimates, the Department of Finance is presenting $2.7 billion in statutory non-budgetary expenditures, and it’s related to $1.4 billion for that decision of shares of the Canada Growth Fund.
According to the website, Canada Growth Fund Inc. is an independent, arm’s-length public fund that will help Canada to speed up the deployment of technology in an effort to reduce emissions and transform our economy and support long-term prosperity for Canadians. My question is this: How are you choosing these projects in which you are investing? How do you ensure and measure that for every dollar you are getting reductions in emissions? How are you doing so far?
Mr. Veilleux: Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, we don’t have any senior officials here from the Crown Investment and Asset Management Branch. However, we can return to the committee with that assessment criteria if that meets the committee’s question.
Senator Galvez: Can we ask that they provide the answer in writing, please?
Mr. Veilleux: Yes, absolutely.
Senator Galvez: My next question is for either the Department of Finance Canada or Indigenous Services Canada. It concerns the request of $8 million for Indigenous engagement on the Trans Mountain agreement.
According to the website, these funds are to help to establish the Phase IV partnership. The focal point is to partner with Indigenous communities. They have to deliver 16 recommendations from the Canada Energy Regulator. When I go to the web page of the Canada Energy Regulator, these 16 recommendations are very specific and it seems that they are difficult to attain.
On recommendation 14, “Develop and deploy new oil recovery technologies.” Where are you on this?
The other one of interest for me is on the oil spills: update federal marine oil spills response requirements. Where are you there?
Mr. Veilleux: That is a Department of Finance Canada item. Again, thank you for the question. We do not have the Special Advisor to the Deputy Minister for the representation there.
I can speak from a financial perspective, from the CFO, what we’re bringing in, but not to those specific measures that you cited. We can commit to return to the committee with a written response, if that satisfies the committee.
Senator Galvez: I would like to put on the record that several times when I have questions with respect to environmental and climate change issues, the people who are supposed to be capable of answering my questions are not present.
I have one last question, hoping they will be able to answer, for the Department of National Defence.
There will be $1.2 million in funding to establish the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s new climate change and security centre in Montréal — supposed to be since 2023.
Do we know what emissions our military and defence produce? How will this $1.2 million in funding be allocated?
Ms. Crosby: Thank you very much for your question. I will do my best to answer.
As announced in Budget 2023, there has been a commitment by NATO to contribute and we have also put aside money to establish a climate change and security centre of excellence in Montréal — the interrelation between climate change and how that impacts our security. It’s a very interesting topic. We’re very proud that this has been given to Canada and that we’re doing this. It’s early days; we’re just establishing it now. In Supplementary Estimates (C), we are requesting funding to help us establish this centre. Its mandate will start in earnest as we speak and will continue.
In terms of specifics, the second part of your question is about what kind of a contributor is National Defence. We do contribute to greenhouse gas emissions, absolutely. We have infrastructure that’s aging and that needs to be replaced. Specifically, we have heating plants and so on that are large contributors to greenhouse gas.
With respect to that, though, we also have a plan in place to make sure we’re purchasing equipment and fleet that is greener. We certainly have an infrastructure greening plan. I’m happy to say that the announcements that took place just this week, on Monday, introduce significant funding, particularly in infrastructure and fleet maintenance, which will enable us to tackle our greenhouse gas emissions from a fleet, equipment and infrastructure perspective. Good news ahead, but we are large contributors.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Crosby. For the record, Senator Galvez, the comments you made will be transcribed into Hansard. I want to remind all senators that when you ask a question or comment, it will be in Hansard.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: I won’t repeat everything that’s been said, but I agree with all of it.
For the Windsor-Detroit Bridge Authority, I see that last year’s authorized budget was $481 million, and that this year it’s $1.1 billion. So you’re asking for an additional $507 million.
I read somewhere in the notes that the increase was due to construction costs and the impact of the pandemic. Could someone explain this so that we have more details on these increases, which are quite substantial? We’re talking about half a billion dollars more.
Ms. Boudreau: I’m sorry, but I don’t have the details for you at the moment. However, I could get back to you with more details.
Senator Dalphond: I have another question about Justice Canada’s budget, which contains smaller amounts. I see that planned contributions for legal aid for immigrants and refugees amounted to $55 million and that an additional budget of $28 million — or 50% more — is being requested, increasing it to $83 million.
Can you explain why there is a 50% increase again this year? Wasn’t the number of requests anticipated? Do I understand correctly that this amount is transferred to the provinces that provide legal aid services?
Ms. Boudreau: We don’t have the Justice Canada chief financial officer with us this evening. Again, we can get back to you with an explanation.
As I mentioned in my speaking notes, the requests you see in the Supplementary Estimates (C) for 2023-24 are requests that weren’t very well determined at the outset. These are additional funds for a number of programs that were not anticipated when the supplementary estimates were tabled in March of the previous year. That’s why you see additional amounts. I would say it’s routine.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you. I’ll be waiting for the answers.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you to everyone for being here this evening.
[English]
My question is for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.
In Supplementary Estimates (C), 2023-24, IRCC is requesting $566.5 billion in additional voted appropriations for seven budget items. Determining the optimal strategy or finding the best strategy for the immigration rates is key for our country, our community and our economy. This means that Canada must continue to be a desirable destination for high-skilled workers, students and all immigrants. This objective is threatened when the bureaucratic system to become a citizen is unnecessarily difficult or strenuous.
IRCC’s 2024-25 departmental plan states that the percentage of permanent resident applicants who report that they were satisfied with the overall services they received was 81%. These are the latest statistics from 2022-23, but they represent a downward trend from the pandemic and are below the 90% minimum target.
I do hear from numerous sources that there are challenges in dealing with the IRCC. How does the department plan on improving this figure and achieving its target going forward? Does the department have any plans in development to improve this figure? What resources does the department need to accomplish the same?
Ms. Manseau: I’ll see if one of my colleagues here with me wants to come to the table and provide some input. If not, we’ll be happy to get back to you.
Senator Loffreda: Okay. Story of my life.
Ms. Manseau: One of my colleagues is brave enough to come forward.
Darcy Pierlot, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: We have observed a significant increase in the volumes we’ve had to contend with, over the last year in particular. We processed roughly 7.1 million applications versus 5.3 million the year preceding that.
In addition to the increased volumes, there are a large number of complexities that we’ve been faced with so far as our humanitarian responses and numerous initiatives under way.
The department has undertaken a multi-year initiative called the Digital Platform Modernization. We’ll see a new front-end client experience we provide, followed by a back end that our officers use for processing. The idea is that the experiences we are offering to clients will significantly improve. That is in addition to a great deal of work that we have achieved over the last year, providing status trackers and information that allows clients to look up the status of their own application without needing to call our call centre. That will be further improved under the Digital Platform Modernization initiative that will allow clients to do everything from view the status of their applications, update information, correct any documentation that may be missing or if they require other additions.
Senator Loffreda: The status update — is it current now? Is it available? I get a lot of questions, especially with family reunification. I’ve had a lot of issues in Quebec. I’ve spoken to Minister Miller. This is why the new proposal was put forward with the provincial government. There are major issues there.
Is it available now?
It’s so difficult. I believe — and I agree that you’ll never attain 100% — but shouldn’t the target be 100%? Then you might get 90% and not 80%. I agree that, given your volume, if we take the clients who are satisfied now, you’re probably in the seventies or even sixties.
What can be done there? We’re appropriating $566.5 billion. That’s a lot of money.
Mr. Pierlot: Thank you for the question.
There’s a multi-pronged answer. On the one hand, the challenges we’re facing insofar as family reunification, in particular for Quebec, has to do with the levels that are set out. As you are aware, there has been negotiations between our minister and Minister Fréchette in terms of how we can find agreement on those levels and processing priority in order to meet them and work through a backlog that we have.
There are numerous status trackers available across our program, but that doesn’t necessarily provide clients with satisfaction if their application is taking longer than they would expect. We have made significant progress across our express entry and permanent resident programs. Six of seven are all within service standard; 80% of all applications are within service standard.
I would be happy to undertake to return with additional details on the Digital Platform Modernization — the benefits we plan to realize there. We have set out a really aggressive schedule — basically, goals of what we seek to achieve — insofar as reduction in resources, and improvements to service standards processing and client satisfaction.
Senator Loffreda: I would like to have that discussion afterward and maybe have some sources that we can share with some of the citizens or immigrants who are having issues and problems.
My other question would be for the Department of National Defence. As part of the alliance, Canada is deeply committed to the defence of our NATO partners. Given the ongoing war in Ukraine and aggressive posturing from Russian leadership, it is critical that Canada is in a position to make meaningful contributions to deterrence measures. Since 2014, we have contributed to deterrence on the European continent through Operation REASSURANCE, with hundreds of troops on the ground in central and eastern Europe. The Supplementary Estimates (C) for 2023-24 highlight additional spending of more than $284 million for Operation REASSURANCE.
What has recent involvement in this operation shown the Department of National Defence? Has the operation highlighted any weak points in our operational readiness? Are resources adequate, and are there areas where the operation has shown need for improvement and/or additional investment?
Ms. Crosby: An excellent question. Thank you. Of course, tonight, I would have loved to have been supported by my CAF military members. Usually, I am and, unfortunately, they weren’t available to come with me tonight. They would be happy to come back, though, and speak to the committee about this.
I can say that, with Operation REASSURANCE, we are learning lessons about what it takes to get a brigade in shape and up and running quickly. A brigade is a very large group of people. From a financial point of view, it has been important to not only think about the funding it takes to identify, train and move our CAF members in place but to look also at the equipment they need. We’ve had many lessons learned in more recent times about what it takes to procure on an urgent basis. You will see, even in these estimates, that we are asking for funding to enable some urgent operational requirement procurement that we’ve had to undertake to get the right equipment into the hands of these military members in Latvia and other places under Operation REASSURANCE.
A lot of lessons learned there.
The Chair: To National Defence, it will be difficult for you to ask us to receive you later on, but we would prefer, with that question that was asked and with the non-answers on other subject matters, could you put your answers in writing and send it to our clerk? Okay, thank you.
Senator MacAdam: My question is for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. It’s a question about international students.
In January, the federal government announced they would be restricting the number of new international undergraduate students entering Canada by 35%. The number of students eligible to apply for a study permit was based on a national 60% conversion from application to acceptance, and the student quotas were to be allocated based on the provincial population.
Let me give you some P.E.I. stats now, because I’m from P.E.I. With 0.043% of the national population and a 52% conversion from application to a student permit, P.E.I. should be receiving 3,007 new applications. Based on the best information I have, they will be receiving 2,312, based on the lower conversion rate.
The allocation based on population has not been addressed. I’m just wondering if you can explain this discrepancy.
Ms. Manseau: Again, I will check with my colleagues to see if they can assist. You’re correct: A cap of two years has been announced, with a 35% decrease, and the allocation to provinces and territories are weighted by the population.
We’ll be happy to provide you more specific information by province.
Senator MacAdam: Okay.
I just have another question related to that just to give you some idea of the impact. The presidents of both the University of Prince Edward Island and Holland College, which is the biggest college in Prince Edward Island, estimate this cap could lead to a decline of 30% in first-year international student enrolments. That is significantly more than what the federal government had projected. That decline will have significant community impacts, including programming and tuition fees. It will be felt substantially into the future.
How will the impacts of the cap be evaluated to ensure that the changes are not disproportionately impacting smaller provinces?
Ms. Manseau: We do plan to assess the introduction of the cap. We’d be happy to provide you the assessment framework that we’ll put in place.
Senator Kingston: My question is for Mr. Thompson. Nice to see you again. So, surprise, I’m talking about Jordan’s Principle. It’s in the Supplementary Estimates (C). The department is requesting $804 million in funding to continue implementing Jordan’s Principle, and so I’m wondering how the $804 million requested differs from the $818 million that is requested for ISC’s First Nations Child and Family Services Program.
I can ask it later, but how are the two funds disbursed, to what organizations, and how are the results tracked?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you very much for the question. With regard to the Jordan’s Principle program, I can provide you with an answer, but I would be not as eloquent as my colleague from the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch who can provide you some more information on how the program works.
The two programs are a little different because the Jordan’s Principle program is reimbursing individuals and communities for health services that are being provided, while the First Nations Child and Family Services Program is really funding for protection and prevention services for child and family services. I will turn to Ms. St-Aubin to give you more details.
Candice St-Aubin, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Indigenous Services Canada: My name is Candice St-Aubin. I’m the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister of First Nations and Inuit Health Branch. With regard to Jordan’s Principle, it is request-based, so individuals request at a focal point across Canada, and then we reimburse or we provide up front funding. There are some examples where we have gone into contribution agreements with community members themselves to deliver services to their citizens, a model which, as our mandate, we want to ensure that we allow First Nations leadership to determine how to best meet their needs.
But more often than not, we will see requests come into focal points or across Canada or through our national call centre, and there are also requests for groups through schools, through the education system, on reserve, as well as needs for non-status First Nations in urban environments.
Senator Kingston: How are your results tracked? You mentioned some organizations, but I have a specific in my mind of an off-reserve organization that has told me that the people that they serve need help to make the applications. How do you deal with that? Are you dealing with that? Are you disbursing money to organizations for that purpose to provide some equity or some support for people?
Ms. St-Aubin: That’s a great question. Thank you so much. In all fairness, Jordan’s Principle is seeing an increase in demand based on education needs, but certainly the more recent context around socio-economic needs, housing supports, et cetera.
We do provide funding to organizations through contribution agreements but also to fund service coordinators. As well, our focal points within our regional offices are trained, including cultural competencies, but also on how they can support someone calling in who is in a place of crisis. What do they need? We talk about what information is needed, what documentation, and this could go over multiple phone calls, or if they’re in a region, face to face, much like Service Canada would do if somebody is applying for a passport.
Now, the situation is much more complex naturally because they could be in a position of crisis. That is all part of training that is provided to those service coordinators. We’re always trying to improve, though. We do have quality assurances that listen in on those phone calls to make sure that we can course correct where we need to and provide additional training and supports, and of course, if it’s the community that we’ve entered into an agreement to deliver with, it is a need. They are struggling with demand themselves within communities, so we have all been trying to work with them to see how we can support them through additional funding. The number you will see there is never enough when it comes to Jordan’s Principle.
Senator Kingston: I’m thinking about Under One Sky in Fredericton. You mentioned service coordinators. Are you speaking of service coordinators that would be funded for those organizations to help with the very things you are talking about? Our office is far away, I think Halifax, if I’m not mistaken.
Ms. St-Aubin: Whenever we enter into agreements for communities to deliver, such as that organization, there are administrative and FTE costs. You put in a budget, and we hope it is enough to support the community or the organization themselves, but we realize that they’re often quite taxed, so one service coordinator might have to handle multiple complex needs for individuals or families. I’ve heard from others as well that the administration of it is a heavy load to carry for communities, or smaller organizations where there is a big dispersed population they’re trying to support. I realize that’s something that’s probably felt in other organizations, and the team continues to work with them.
Senator Kingston: Thank you.
Senator Ross: My question is with regard to immigration, for you, Ms. Manseau. I’m from New Brunswick, so I understand the importance of funding, and extra funding even, for temporary foreign workers, or TFWs, in agriculture and fish processing. I’m wondering if you can give me a sense of what that additional funding in the supplementary estimates will be used for and how many workers it actually represents.
Ms. Manseau: In the supplementary estimates for IRCC, the total funding was for IRCC and ESDC, and the IRCC portion is $6.8 million in the fiscal year 2023-24 for a total of close to $27 million over four years.
The funding was to put in place measures to increase the protection for workers, to reduce the administration burden for trusted repeat employers, and quickly bring in workers to fill short-term labour market gaps. An example of those would be the new sector-specific work permits, and expand and modernize partner country agreements and employment contracts.
Senator Ross: I did read that there was $5.8 million for a new agriculture and fish processing stream. That’s the one I’m specifically interested in.
Ms. Manseau: Correct. It’s the funding for the agriculture and fish processing stream within the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
Senator Ross: And how many workers would this represent?
Ms. Manseau: I would not have that data with me, but we would be happy to provide it to you.
Senator Ross: The minister recently announced that employers under the Workforce Solutions Road Map would have a reduction from 30% to 20% of the workforce, and I wonder if there is any relationship between the addition in one area and the reduction in another.
Ms. Manseau: Unfortunately, I don’t have that information with me, but we would be happy to provide it to you. I’m sorry.
Senator Ross: Thanks very much.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: Senator Kingston asked my question about funding for the continued implementation of Jordan’s Principle, but I have another question for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada about funding for the Interim Housing Assistance Program, or IAH, temporary housing and funding for the Canada-Quebec agreement. These are significant amounts. We’re talking about $362 million for the interim housing assistance program.
What kind of accommodation are we talking about? Is it hotel accommodation or real housing in buildings for the medium and long term? Can you tell us a little bit more about what this involves?
Ms. Manseau: These programs are included in the supplementary estimates. The amount of $362 million is earmarked for the assistance program for costs related to asylum claimants. This program is shared with the provinces. The money is given to the provinces to reduce the pressure on municipal shelters. That’s the $362 million. This announcement was made in January, and this amount is in addition to an announcement that was also made in July. This program has $574 million at its disposal.
What you are referring to when you talk about temporary housing is hotels. Once again, this is to reduce the pressure on municipalities. Asylum seekers are temporarily housed in hotels located across Canada.
Senator Carignan: Is it the $103 million? Are these hotel expenses?
Ms. Manseau: The $103 million is for hotel expenses, accommodation, meals and security for temporary accommodation.
Senator Carignan: For the funds earmarked for the Canada-Quebec accord, is any of the $362 million also for the Canada-Quebec accord? Or is the $48 million only for the Canada-Quebec accord, and Quebec doesn’t get anything from the other part, not the $103 million or the $362 million?
Ms. Manseau: The $48 million for the Canada-Quebec accord is specifically for the accord. As for the Interim Housing Assistance Program, up to $150 million will be allocated to the province of Quebec from the amount of $302 million, plus $212 million. So the total program is $574 million, and a total of $150 million will be allocated to Quebec.
Senator Carignan: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: At the Finance Committee, we always welcome and we are always anxious to open the door to ex officio members. This evening, we do have the presence of Senator LaBoucane-Benson.
Thank you for coming to the Finance Committee. The floor is yours for questions, please.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Senator, I’m very sad that my first meeting is your last, but I’m glad I made at least one meeting to see the excellence of your chairing.
My question is for Mr. Thompson. I’m particularly interested in the implementation of reforms to the First Nations Child and Family Services Program. It’s a tremendous undertaking. I’m wondering, does this money support nations to create their own child welfare codes and laws, to design services and write policies? Is that part of that funding envelope?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question. The intent of this particular envelope is to maintain the services while we are negotiating long-term reform. It’s for the administration of the program. It’s a different envelope of funding that is being used for implementing Bill C-92 for exercising jurisdiction.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Even so, do you know how many nations are actually at coordination tables at the moment, trying to figure out how their services can be self-determined with the provinces and the federal government?
Mr. Thompson: Currently, we have concluded six coordination agreements and one bilateral agreement. Ten Indigenous governing bodies have brought their laws into force. We have held 121 engagement sessions, and 91 notice requests have been received from 77 Indigenous governing bodies, representing 74 First Nations, 1 Inuit and 2 Métis. More than 110 Indigenous communities are pursuing that section of the act.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: That’s fantastic. Thank you.
Senator Marshall: I have one question for the Department of Finance relating to something in the fiscal update. There was an adjustment to the borrowing plan last year, an increase of $71 billion. I’d like to know the reason for the increase.
Mr. Veilleux: Thank you for the question. I will turn to my colleagues to see if there is anyone here who can provide a response.
Right now, I’ll qualify it because I don’t want it to be thematic. I know this is the third one. My official colleagues are “all hands on deck” right now as they work on the federal budget. A few of us were able to squeak out today. I do apologize, but we do commit to return to the committee with a written response on that one.
Senator Marshall: That would be very helpful. Thank you very much.
My next question is also on the fiscal update and the removal of GST from new rental housing. The budget over the six years is $4.5 billion, but there were $5 million provided last year. I couldn’t find it in Supplementary Estimates (C). Was it provided and what was it for? It just seemed like an odd amount.
Mr. Veilleux: Thank you for the question, Senator Marshall. I’ll include that in the response from the policy branch and get back to the committee on that one.
Senator Marshall: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: My question is for Ms. Crosby. I’m going to take advantage of your presence here tonight, because the Minister of National Defence unveiled a highly anticipated new strategy on Monday, and it’s a step in the right direction. I think that’s what the American ambassador and the Secretary General of NATO have said.
You can answer my next question in writing. I tried to get an explanation from the minister’s office about how he arrived at those figures. He says that military spending will rise from 1.3% to 1.76% of GDP in 2029-30.
Now, according to my calculations as an economist, Canada’s GDP is $2.9 trillion; by 2030, according to the Department of Finance’s projections, it will be $3.5 trillion. Applying a ration of 1.76%, this would mean a budget of $61 billion in 2030 for national defence. The current figure is around $39 billion. In short, $20 billion should have been announced, not $8 billion.
I don’t need an answer tonight, but I would appreciate it if you could send a written answer to clarify that. Unless you have figures, there’s something I’m missing, because it’s not working.
Senator Carignan: Could we all have the answer? I asked the Minister of National Defence the same question.
Senator Gignac: Senator Carignan, I was inspired by your question, and the committee will have the answer.
The Chair: Thank you for your clarification. The committee will receive the answer through the clerk, and it will be distributed to all senators. Ms. Crosby?
[English]
Ms. Crosby: I do have the answer, but I am also happy — and we actually are working on providing it. We’ve had numerous inquiries from committees and so on for a written response, so I’m happy to provide it. But I can tell you that calculating what Canada spends is not just a matter of focusing on National Defence, so you’re absolutely right.
The National Defence budget right now is $31 billion. It is growing. By 2029, we will actually be at $49 billion, almost $50 billion, in National Defence.
That number is a combination of Canada’s defence policy — Strong, Secure, Engaged, or SSE — that was announced in 2017; NORAD modernization that was announced two years ago, $38 billion; and then this new $73 billion that was announced. The combination of that does take the National Defence budget from $30 billion to $49.5 billion.
On top of that, we have spending that’s related to defence from other government departments. That’s what confuses people sometimes, but there are an additional $8 billion to $9 billion-ish on top of that. We are not far from where we would be. Our forecasted projection — and these are projected budgets based on the information that we have right now — is for total expenses to Canada in 2029-30 of $57.8 billion. That is very close to your $61 billion number.
Senator Gignac: Thank you for your complete answer. Please provide as well — because they have an auditor at NATO for audits calculated — some additional information, but I appreciate very much the details you provided this evening. Merci.
Ms. Crosby: I would add that these numbers will change. We still have Budget 2024 to happen on April 16, so the numbers will change.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Crosby.
Senator Smith: To Ms. Manseau with IRCC, I know Senator Carignan asked you some questions on the programs for temporary accommodation, et cetera. You discussed the Interim Housing Assistance Program, as well as funding for temporary accommodations for asylum seekers.
We are looking for the permanent solutions that you’re trying to find. You talked about permanent solutions. Where are you with the permanence? It’s great to have the temporary housing of people in hotels, et cetera. You have a lot of money set out for it, but what about the permanent solutions? It’s all sort of floating in midair when you’re talking about the temporary stuff. Where are you with your permanent solutions in terms of addressing asylum seekers and registered people who are immigrating to Canada?
Ms. Manseau: You’re right. The funding that we’re currently seeing in the Supplementary Estimates (C) is a temporary solution. The department is currently looking at longer-term solutions to address the asylum seekers.
Senator Smith: If you can dig up some more concrete answers to that and give it to us in writing, we would be highly appreciative of that. I didn’t mean to put you on the spot.
Ms. Manseau: We’ll be able to do that, yes.
Senator Smith: Thank you so much.
Senator Galvez: Indigenous Services Canada is requesting $260 million in funding for the Emergency Management Assistance Program, or EMAP, but this is a reimbursement for costs that were incurred for past years. The actual spending is $660 million in 2021-22 and $486 million in 2022-23. I would like to know what the budget was for 2023-24, and I would like to know if the fact that today we have more frequent and more destructive extreme weather events and wildfires has been considered when determining these projections for the budget.
Mr. Thompson: The supplementary estimates, you are correct, are adding $260 million to the program. It revised the estimate to a total of $576 million. In order to provide you more details on emergency management, I will invite my colleague from Regional Operations to join us at the table.
Paula Hadden-Jokiel, Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Indigenous Services Canada: Good evening. My name is Paula Hadden-Jokiel. I am the Assistant Deputy Minister with the Regional Operations Sector, which has responsibility for the programs including emergency management. I’m very happy to be joining you today, and I recognize that we’re on traditional Algonquin Anishinaabe territory.
You’re very right, senator, in terms of the budget. As our CFO has explained, the majority of the funding for the EMAP is a reimbursement program to support response and recovery efforts, which is very difficult to predict. We have had a couple of unprecedented seasons of late in terms of wildfires and floods. We do get some A-base funding which is primarily directed to the prevention and mitigation aspects of the program.
So, for instance, there is about $16 million annually for wildfire management. We get about $20 million a year in terms of supporting the development of emergency management service agreements, and there is a lot of work happening in that area, particularly following our commitments after the OAG audit on the Emergency Management Assistance Program and our commitment to work with First Nations partners and provincial and territorial governments to development multilateral agreements. So that’s a very active area.
There is also about $18 million annually for nonstructural mitigation and about $13 million a year for emergency management coordinators. The response and recovery annual budget A-base is only about $29 million. It’s a very regular practice, depending on the emergency incidents throughout the year, to go back and request additional funding to support response and recovery efforts.
Senator Galvez: I would like just a supplementary question. So because, as you are saying, it’s difficult to know what’s going to happen — we know it’s going to happen, but we don’t know where, we don’t know how much. Are you using any kind of modelling to allow you to do these predictions?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Yes, so we are working with federal and with First Nations partners. The seasons have been very difficult to predict. There is a lot of work with the federal government departments around flood forecasting and wildfire forecasting. Last year alone, our experience represented an increase of four times the average of evacuees over the previous year. That’s hard to model, to be honest.
There is a lot of work around looking at trends, 10-year trends, 4-year trends. We are trying to think of what the right ways to look at this are, but also working with First Nations partners around traditional knowledge and making sure we’re incorporating that into the forecasting modelling that we’re doing, but also working with our partners at Natural Resources Canada, or NRCan, and Environment and Climate Change Canada, or ECCC, and others around how to use the data and technology we have to better prepare ourselves, moving forward.
Senator Galvez: The Auditor General said that the department actions are more reactive than preventive. Is there any hope that we will turn into more prevention rather than reaction at this point?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Yes, absolutely. That was, I would say, one of the foundational recommendations from the Auditor General. There are four pillars to the program, prevention and mitigation being two of those. We are expending all of those resources that we get in that area. Structural mitigation particularly is an increasing need across communities to build more climate-resilient infrastructure and also to prepare for floods and fires and to mitigate some of the risks associated with that.
So I can confidently say we are expending all the resources we have available on the prevention and mitigation side, but the demand far exceeds the resources we have currently available.
Senator Loffreda: It is a privilege and pleasure to conclude the second round. My question is for the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. In the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2023-24, the secretariat is requesting additional voted appropriations greater than $1.5 billion, the bulk being for compensation adjustments but also for the Joint Learning Program, to support a mental health fund, and for the cybersecurity of government operations.
Part of the Treasury Board’s mandate is to advance the digitization of the Canadian government. This means providing Canadians with more secure, accessible and reliable digital services, all the while protecting the privacy of citizens.
For the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat 2024-25 Departmental Plan, the most recent figure on the percentage of high-volume Government of Canada services that meet service standards stands at 49% for 2022-23. The current target is a minimum of 80%, with a date to achieve this target by March 2025. We do have an obligation to Canadians to provide them with digital services that meet service standards.
How does the department plan on investing better in these critical government services to ensure Canadians can enjoy the accessible and secure services they need? That’s an easy question. I see —
Mr. Burt: Yes, your question took a zig-zag there.
Senator Loffreda: — you were smiling before you met me. We did greet ourselves appropriately. I didn’t tell you, I hope you will be smiling afterward.
Mr. Burt: Thank you for your question, senator. We are working closely with ESDC on how we can improve services to Canadians across the board. We would agree with you wholeheartedly that the current levels that we are seeing across departments and agencies are not where they need to be.
There are issues, of course, in the numbers from that time frame around the pandemic and other things that happened, but generally speaking, from a Treasury Board Secretariat perspective, the provision of end-to-end digital services to Canadians is not, currently, where we would like it to be. We were a leader on this in the early part of the century, and we have fallen behind a number of others across the country.
There is a variety of initiatives under way, things you may have heard us talk about before around digital credentials, around how we get more end-to-end digital services, not just a portion of them. This, as I said, is an ongoing operation principally with Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, and the Service Canada portion of ESDC, but also with all of the other departments that offer services directly to Canadians.
Senator Loffreda: You’re confident you will attain your target by March 2025?
Mr. Burt: We are confident that it is the right target. Whether or not we will —
Senator Loffreda: Why not 100%, instead of 80%? I don’t believe it is the right target.
Mr. Burt: I think we need to get there step-by-step, frankly, senator. There is a lot of work to be done in this space across a variety of different departments and agencies that offer a variety of different services. There is a world of difference between the service offered by Canada Revenue Agency in terms of taxes, which is a routine, mature, standardized service — similar to passports where we had some bobbles in the last couple years, but we have come a long way in terms of shoring up that service. But many of our services are more bespoke, more focused on particular vulnerable groups, from Indigenous people to veterans to others, where there is just simply more work required to get those to the level they need to be at.
Senator Loffreda: So there are consequences for getting it 49%? Like most Canadians, if they attain 49% of their objectives, there would be consequences at their place of employment, right?
Mr. Burt: There are consequences in terms of making sure we put measures in place to do better, senator.
Senator Loffreda: And they are being put in place?
Mr. Burt: They are.
Senator Loffreda: I am looking forward to better numbers, thank you.
The Chair: To the officials, as we conclude, for your responses in writing, please, we have a time frame in which it can be sent to the clerk of the committee by the end of the day on Wednesday, April 24, 2024. Is that an agreement, officials? Yes, it is.
I would also like to recognize the cooperation, devotion and professionalism of our public servants.
[Translation]
I want to acknowledge your contribution at every level. You give Canada the positive image it has around the world, and I think it’s important to recognize that. As chair, I’d like to use my last meeting to congratulate you and say hats off to you, because you work for the best country in the world: Canada.
[English]
On behalf of the members of the Finance Committee, we have a common denominator with the public servants, and it’s all about budgets: transparency, accountability, reliability and predictability of the budgets.
[Translation]
As we say in French, l’objectif ultime est la transparence, la responsabilité, la fiabilité et la prévisibilité des crédits budgétaires.
[English]
Thank you very much. As we close, senators, I guess I have another item that as Chair I have to bring to your attention, members of the committee, and I’ll say that I have some comments that I will bring to the Senate chamber tomorrow, but I want to say it here this evening since it is my last meeting, and it is that you are great members of the Finance Committee.
Canadians know and I’ve learned throughout my life as I served the public that people don’t care who we are until they know what we care for. When I look around the table now, I know as parliamentarians what you care for.
On this, I have to admit to you that your next meeting will be April 16 at 9:00 a.m. to resume your study — our study — of the Supplementary Estimates (C). Before we adjourn officially, there is a motion that I need to ask the Finance Committee, and if it is agreed, then I will need a mover and a seconder. It is that the Honourable Senator Claude Carignan, subject to his addition to the membership of the Senate Committee on National Finance, be elected as chair of this committee effective April 14, 2024, to replace the present chair.
I would like to ask for a mover and a seconder. I will now recognize Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall: Thank you, chair.
The Chair: So moved by Senator Marshall.
Senator Gignac: I don’t know about the probation period, but putting jokes aside —
[Translation]
In the absence of our deputy chair, Senator Forest, I just wanted to mention that he wanted to share with you — and I think I speak on behalf of all senators around the table…. Senator Forest asked me to thank you for your dedication, rigour, professionalism, and non-partisan and fair attitude toward all.
Senator Carignan, the bar will be high, since Senator Mockler has chaired more than 300 meetings, dedicated more than 500 hours to the committee, heard and called more than 1,000 witnesses and tabled 55 reports. We wish you the best of luck.
Thank you, Senator Mockler.
[English]
The Chair: Before I adjourn, is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Motion carried.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to say a word to thank you for your confidence.
To reassure my colleague Senator Gignac, I sincerely hope I don’t break the record set by my friend Senator Mockler. As you know, the chair of the Senate Finance Committee represents the opposition, not the governing party, so I hope I don’t break his record.
Senator, you mentioned the quality of the committee members. Obviously, this committee is a Formula 1 car. The big problem is that the driver was also a Formula 1 driver, so I hope I’m up to the task. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[English]
The Chair: To the officials, to the senators, meeting adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)