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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

EVIDENCE

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OTTAWA, Monday, November 28, 2022

The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met with videoconference this day at 5:21 p.m. [ET] to study matters relating to francophone immigration to minority communities.

Senator René Cormier (Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Dear colleagues, my name is René Cormier, a senator from New Brunswick, and the current Chair of the Senate Committee on Official Languages.

Before we begin, I wish to invite members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves, starting on my left.

Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné from Manitoba.

Senator Clement: Bernadette Clement from Ontario.

Senator Dalphond: Pierre Dalphond from Quebec.

Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie from Quebec.

Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion from Ontario.

The Chair: Thank you and welcome to all of you, and viewers across the country who may be watching. I would like to point out that I am taking part in this meeting from within the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe Nation.

Today, we will be continuing our study on francophone immigration to minority communities. Our meeting will be divided into two parts of approximately 75 minutes each. For the first part, we are welcoming representatives from a number of francophone immigration networks and we will begin with the RIF, the Francophone immigration network of Eastern Ontario, represented here today by its Coordinator, Brigitte Duguay Langlais.

Then we have the Program Coordinator of the Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan, Ferdinand Bararuzunza.

From the Francophone Immigration Network of Nova Scotia, we have the Manager, Emmanuel Nahimana.

And finally we have the Executive Director, Audrey Fournier, of the Fédération franco-ténoise, who represents the Francophone Immigration Network of the Northwest Territories.

Welcome to everyone, and thank you all for being with us. We’re now ready to hear your opening remarks, which will be followed by a round of questions from the senators. Ms. Duguay Langlais, the floor is yours.

Brigitte Duguay Langlais, Coordinator, Francophone immigration network of Eastern Ontario: Thank you very much to the chair, Senator Cormier, and to the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, for inviting us and giving us an opportunity to speak to you this evening.

If my testimony can help you with your future work in attempting to enhance francophone immigration in Canada, I would be absolutely delighted. To begin with, allow me to explain to you who I am, which should help you in case you want to ask me various questions afterwards. I am entirely at your service during my appearance and, if required, afterwards.

I have been working for just over eight years now at the Conseil économique et social d’Ottawa-Carleton, or CESOC, the only francophone immigration settlement organization in eastern Ontario, apart from Kingston, which has its own service. I’m a manager with this organization and responsible for three important programs funded by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, IRCC, called the Réseau de soutien à l’immigration francophone de l’Est de l’Ontario, As the chair mentioned earlier. We cover the area from Ottawa to Kingston and from Cornwall to Hawkesbury.

I’m also a program manager at the Hawkesbury Welcoming Francophone Community and at Point d’accueil francophone in Ottawa. Over the past eight years, I saw major steps forward being taken by IRCC with respect to francophone immigration, in particular the IRCC change in direction in 2020 on the matter of francophone immigration. There were major efforts and corporate culture changes effected in a number of the department’s services, and it was a pleasure to collaborate on that, but there’s still a lot of work to be done, and that’s why I’m here this evening.

In my presentation, I will take it for granted that you already have a good knowledge of the grievances with respect to francophone immigration and official languages. I will accordingly focus more specifically on a number of solutions. I will try to stay within the prescribed speaking time — I’ve been told that I have about five minutes — but I’m available to answer any other questions you may have afterwards.

I’d like to begin by explaining my point of view or stance on meeting targets. I believe that decisions have to be consistent with one another. The political rhetoric in Ottawa, along with grand visions and dreams of change, are all very well, but I think that the solution lies in having these visions, speeches and impressions actually happen on the ground. That, in my opinion is where the problem lies in the entire structure.

Francophone immigration and the prioritization of francophone immigration is an issue that has to address our employees in Canada’s embassies abroad, recruitment offices, and people who do recruitment in refugee camps. It’s important to rethink the countries in which recruitment should be done. It’s important to rethink the location of foreign recruitment offices. They are almost all in English-speaking countries or countries with anglophone ties. If there is really any political will in this area, then all of the links in the chain have to lead to the right destination. That’s my point of view.

You mentioned that you wanted to hear people’s opinions about what factors would promote francophone immigration and the whole question of francophone communities, sustainability, and so on. I know people won’t think I’m being particularly original when I say so, but the key word is “investment.” The Welcoming Francophone Communities (WFC) initiative is a good example of successful investment by the federal government in terms of welcoming and retaining francophone immigrants in our communities.

I’m a manager at the Hawkesbury WFC, and we have been incredibly successful, far more than we might have imagined. People leave their native countries to come and live in Hawkesbury. Those familiar with this community know that it’s very small. People are leaving big cities and their home countries to come and live here. For me, that’s a sign of success. I’m talking about our WFC, but I know that there are successful efforts in other provinces and territories. We would like the WFC to move from being a pilot project to a permanent IRCC program. Other projects on that scale and quality should also be found.

There are many kinds of factors that can be harmful to the whole process, and I’ve selected just a few for you. One of these factors is the administrative burden. I won’t air all my complaints in this regard, because you have no doubt heard about them for a long time now. People in the field are complaining about the administrative burden at all levels of government.

When the federal government gets involved in various emergency strategies, like Afghanistan and Ukraine, it has to give consideration to the investment in human resources. Over the past year, our country got involved in international crises. That’s all very well, but at the same time, we felt that our resources had been reinvested somewhere else. When you get involved in crises, you have to use the resources that are needed and leave the resources that we work with where they are on the ground to help us deal with this issue.

There is another factor. I’m not sure just how the changes might be made, but when the issue of problems in housing in Canada comes up — and that too might sound redundant — I could give you several examples to demonstrate that housing problems harm the entire immigration process. Whether in our WFCs or other projects, when dealing with the housing problem, immigration has to be included.

The Minister of Immigration needs to show leadership to his colleagues. We are often told by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada that they don’t fund housing, and point to Mr. Sean Fraser’s colleagues, who handle housing-related issues. This question has to be dealt with by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.

The Chair: I would suggest that you finish soon. You’ve gone well beyond your speaking time. You’ll have an opportunity to add further details during the round of questions. I’ll let you wrap things up now.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: Thank you. The only thing I’d like to see is francophone immigration treated longitudinally by the government. It’s a societal project for which all departments are responsible. You can’t just point to the Department of Labour, Social Development or Health and say that immigration is a matter for IRCC. It’s not true. People have to stop politicizing this issue. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much. We will now continue with Mr. Bararuzunza, of the Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan.

Ferdinand Bararuzunza, Program Coordinator, Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan: Thank you for giving me the floor. Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, senators, it’s a great pleasure to tell you about the various challenges being faced by Saskatchewan. My name is Ferdinand Bararuzunza and I am the coordinator of the Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan, the RIF-SK.

The Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan is an issue table on francophone immigration that brings together 18 francophone community organizations, all of which provide direct or indirect services involved in the recruitment, reception, settlement and integration of francophone newcomers with a view to retaining them to help maintain the vitality of the province’s francophone communities.

It covers various sectors, including policy issues, reception and settlement, health, access to employment, teaching, a structure for young people, legal services, and support for children and parents, culture and senior services.

What is the status of francophone immigrants in Saskatchewan? The answer to this question can be summarized by listing a number of major challenges, six of which I will now mention. First of all, francophone immigration has experienced a decline in the natural birth rate in Saskatchewan because of the overall aging of the population. Second, the province’s mortality rate, which is consistent with the aging population, is also weighing heavily on demographic weight. Third, Saskatchewan’s francophone community is experiencing a noticeable exodus owing to the attraction of other provinces.

Fourth, the community has experienced linguistic assimilation because of the appeal of the English language. Fifth, many students are being denied visas, mainly because they have not sufficiently demonstrated that they will return to their home country after graduation. Sixth, the processing of immigration applications for our francophone clients, which was already slow when things were normal, has slowed down even more because of the applications from Ukrainian newcomers, which could create frustration.

To conclude, if immigration is to have a concrete impact, Saskatchewan will have to have many more francophone immigrants than it is currently receiving.

Every step in the immigration process is essential and they must all be followed if francophone immigration is to succeed. International recruitment, pre-departure support, the visa issuing process, reception services upon arrival and integration services; all of these need to be handled properly, or the process will fail. Long-term settlement depends on several factors: the ability to earn a living with dignity; access to adequate housing in favourable social environments for children and young people; development of social and political ties in the host community.

The Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan is convinced that francophone immigration is crucial if the francophonie is to continue to develop in Saskatchewan. The community, and its network of francophone organizations, have been working on this for nearly 20 years. Our organizations are engaged with the immigrant population. The Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, the Service d’accueil et d’inclusion francophone de la Saskatchewan (Francophone Welcome & Inclusion Services of Saskatchewan), the Welcoming Francophone Community and all members of RIF-SK are prepared to work with the Canadian government to implement the following recommendations.

Firstly, to increase IRCC capacity to process visa and immigration applications in francophone countries. Second, to add a francophone component to the family sponsorship category. Third, to establish a gateway to permanent residency for francophone temporary workers and graduates. Temporary workers and graduates of Canada’s colleges and universities have to wait an unreasonable amount of time before being able to become permanent residents. Fourth, we recommend the removal of a number of barriers with a view to allowing more francophone international students to come here.

Fifth, it’s important for the provinces and territories to add a francophone component to their candidate selection programs. For example, Saskatchewan plays a major role through its selection programs, but has no target for francophone immigration and no mechanism to put francophone immigrants in touch with community resources. Sixth, a francophone economic immigration program aligned with community needs should be established. Seventh, better support is needed for the settlement of refugees from francophone African countries. Eighth, support is required for the immigration efforts of host communities. This support could take many different forms: promoting the province abroad, encouraging employer recruitment, giving communities a role in the selection of immigrants, reimbursing existing hosting and settlement services and coordinating the various Welcoming Francophone Communities programs.

In addition to all that, we suggest increasing the number of francophone faculties at the University of Regina to meet the university education requirements of graduates from the various francophone high schools —

The Chair: I would ask you to wrap things up now, please.

Mr. Bararuzunza: That was my last recommendation. Thank you, and I’d be glad to answer any questions people may have.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bararuzunza. You will have an opportunity to provide more information when we get to the round of questions.

Mr. Nahimana, you have the floor. Because you don’t have the right headset for interpretation, and you will be giving your presentation in French, there won’t be any interpretation into English.

I’ve just been informed that unless there is interpretation, we can’t allow your testimony.

I’m sorry, Mr. Nahimana. Unfortunately, you don’t have the headset and it’s absolutely essential to have it for interpretation in both official languages. We are therefore unable to accept your testimony. We would encourage you to send your recommendations, comments and testimony in writing to the committee. However, you can stay online with us to hear what your colleagues have to say.

I’m now giving the floor to Ms. Audrey Fournier, Executive Director of the Fédération franco-ténoise organization in the Francophone Immigration Network of the Northwest Territories.

Welcome, Ms. Fournier. You have the floor.

Audrey Fournier, Executive Director, Fédération franco-ténoise, Francophone Immigration Network of the Northwest Territories: Good evening and thank you for the invitation. Greetings to all members of the Senate committee.

I’m the Executive Director of the Fédération franco-ténoise, the organization responsible for the Francophone Immigration Network of the Northwest Territories.

The network was established in 2010, and it acts as an issue table for the 14 members that work, directly or indirectly, on francophone immigration in the Northwest Territories. We are working to improve the continuum of francophone immigration services here in the territories. You’ve already heard a great deal, I’m sure, but what I will attempt to focus on is the specific context in the North and other remote regions, like ours.

We have some problems of scale because our community is very small, and the cost of living here is very high compared to other regions in Canada. As in many other parts of Canada, there is a serious housing shortage that makes immigration and all of our projects difficult.

We would accordingly like to see more flexibility in how the communities and community organizations can use IRCC funds to carry out their mandate. Among other things, we would like to be able to use these funds not only for permanent residents, but also temporary workers. As I was saying, the community is small and we already have trouble handling the small number of immigrants who come here. Demand is nevertheless high in Canada generally. Integrating successfully here is a genuine challenge.

We would also like to see a reduced workload for organizations in terms of things like accountability. We think that the impact on the ground could be seriously improved if the administrative burden on immigration organizations could be reduced.

Then, more broadly, the Northwest Territories government has introduced a new program that focuses on francophones. This is really a step in the right direction, and we’re very happy about it here in the Northwest Territories, and eager to see what impact it will have. However, it takes a long time to actually see outcomes on the ground. Right now, it takes from 10 months to almost a year to process applications. We’d like to see an increase in IRCC’s capacity to process applications more quickly if there is to be a real impact here that would help us deal with the shortage of human resources.

And support for employers would be nice, because that’s definitely missing here right now.

I’ll stop there. I’m sure there will be other opportunities to talk about our specific problems.

The Chair: Thank you to the three witnesses. Your perceptive presentations identified the challenges and your recommendations were equally clear.

We will now move on to the round of questions.

Senator Gagné: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here with us this evening. I too would like to thank you for your presentations, because I feel you have provided us with a good overview of what’s happening on the ground. It’s very useful for us to hear your points of view so that we can make sure our report reflects your opinions.

What I heard from you was that the challenge is a major one. Canada is currently having a lot of trouble in meeting its targets. We are currently supposed to be aiming for 4.4% of immigrants outside of Quebec to be French-speaking by 2023, and here we are almost in 2023.

The FCFA is recommending setting increasingly ambitious targets that would make up for lost ground, ranging from 12% in 2024 to 20% in 2036. In any event, I believe that the IRCC minister mentioned that the Canadian government wanted to increase the number of immigrants for next year to 500,000.

Are you in a position to accept a growing number of immigrants if we are successful in meeting the targets, or again if the government is prepared to establish increasingly ambitious remedial targets, as I mentioned earlier, of 12% in 2024 and 20% in 2036?

I’d like to hear what you have to say about this.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I’ll be happy to go ahead with a very clear answer.

For us, the answer is yes. I work mainly in the region’s rural areas. Our schools are threatened, the sustainability of our francophone community is threatened, so yes, we are prepared.

However, there is a catch, and that is that the answer is yes, only if the federal government can deal concurrently with the housing issue. It’s equally important, and definitely related, and the success of immigration is dependent on it. The housing shortage needs to be dealt with very seriously in Canada, because it’s making everything else difficult.

If we are prepared, and if our infrastructures are in place, such as our schools, our community, and so on, in my corner of the country, which is eastern Ontario, then my answer is yes.

Ms. Fournier: We feel the same way; I would say yes.

I think that the FCFA is suggesting a gradually increasing target that will allow the communities the time they need to organize in order to be able to handle the demand.

We have the NWT Intercultural Centre, which handles both francophone and anglophone immigration services. It’s an incredible asset that we can build on, and it would enable us to build our capacity to handle this demand.

I would add that because there is an official languages act in the Northwest Territories, French is an official language, which means that the government has an obligation to provide services.

We share a common objective with the territorial government, which is to have access to bilingual human resources. It’s very important for the government to be able to meet its obligations and provide services in French.

I believe that if immigrants were to start arriving, the communities would not only be able to get themselves organized, but also that the territorial government would be able to support the added demand.

I would also like to second what my colleague Ms. Duguay Langlais said in connection with housing. I definitely agree that it’s an issue that has to be dealt with concurrently.

I would add that it’s important to work with federal service providers on the ground. Everything needs to link up properly for the continuum to work as planned. Thank you.

Mr. Bararuzunza: Increasing the francophone population, at least in part through francophone immigration, is something that the Francophone Immigration Network of Saskatchewan would very much like to see.

We do indeed plan to promote growth in the francophone population, including francophone immigrants and newcomers.

As to whether we are prepared to welcome these people, well, if it’s possible, then of course, our answer is yes. Needless to say, it could be successful if worked on jointly with increased funding from IRCC and the Saskatchewan government, and more political commitment from the federal government. Thank you.

Senator Mégie: We’ve been talking a lot about the failure to meet targets and all that. How often do you think the target should be changed; annually or on a multi-year basis? Should it be adapted to the realities of your provinces? If so, what realities are we talking about? Whoever chooses to answer could discuss the situation in their own province.

Mr. Bararuzunza: The reason why the specified target of 4.4% has not been met has nothing to do with the fact that it’s programmed on a multi-year basis. Setting targets yearly is also not the solution. The real question is why the target has not been achieved, and what we can do to meet it.

Frankly, the federal government and IRCC could do a lot more for international recruitment through programs for international students, and coming up with ways of helping us keep them in Canada once they have graduated. In Saskatchewan, we would certainly like to retain graduating international students so that they can contribute to the vitality of francophone communities.

The failure to meet this target should be dealt with through programs that we have previously put forward, such as international recruitment and perhaps the recruitment of refugees. There are resources in certain countries that would enable us to find a remarkable number of highly qualified francophone refugees, for example in countries at war, like those in the African Great Lakes area. We could bring in a lot of people and meet the target that way.

On the basis of that kind of political commitment, and also through concrete efforts that have already been suggested by Ms. Fournier, Ms. Duguay Langlais and me, the target could be programmed on a multi-year basis and adjusted yearly by evaluating what has already been done. You can’t wait three or four years to evaluate the program.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I don’t think any of that is very important: annual, multi-year, provincial, federal, consultation… Every province has its target and the federal government has its target. What’s needed is to stop politicizing francophone immigration and treating it as a societal project, irrespective of political party, government or level of government. Everyone needs to treat this matter as a personal responsibility or as a responsibility of their department.

I’m very pleased to be here today because I can see that a group of senators has decided to look into the matter of francophone immigration. It’s also part of your responsibilities; it has to do with the future of our Canada and our francophonie.

I’ve attended other forums at which I was a witness and where my suggestions were used either to compliment or disparage another political party. We get the impression that we’re being used as a political football, and it’s pretty frustrating. I’d like all these skirmishes between parties and these political wars to end. All that needs to stop.

Every department should have a francophone immigration champion who can say: “I have a mandate.” In his mandate letters, the Prime Minister should include this particular one as a way of helping Mr. Sean Fraser meet his objectives and targets. Left to its own devices, the department will never meet them, and neither will the region. Unless it’s a societal project, then no matter what the targets might be, or what the FCFA might say, and whatever reports might be written... Everyone has to work together.

Mr. Bararuzunza: I would add that for Saskatchewan — you hear it often and people keep saying it — there’s another specific problem related to the fact that young francophones often leave at the end of high school. The University of Regina is not really bilingual. There is a Faculty of French literature, as you know. However, other faculties, like economics, law and medicine, need to be added, as is the case at the University of Ottawa, for our graduates to be able to consider studying in Saskatchewan with a view to staying and working in Saskatchewan.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you very much to our guests. They are always very helpful, because they are on the ground and can provide us with information we don’t know about.

My question is for Ms. Duguay Langlais, but first, I’d like to comment on Mr. Bararuzunza’s answer, when he mentioned francophone students who couldn’t go to university.

So where do they go? British Columbia in English, Ottawa or Quebec in French? Do they go to New Brunswick?

Mr. Bararuzunza: Here, there, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec — they enroll everywhere, and some may even stay here, of course.

Senator Dalphond: And now my question is for Ms. Duguay Langlais.

You are in a somewhat privileged position compared to your colleagues in other provinces. You’re in eastern Ontario, where there is a critical mass of francophones. Are you experiencing the same problems that were described by the other regions?

You also mentioned some interesting projects that have attracted interest abroad. Can you tell us more about this?

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I’ll begin with your second question, because it’s an easier one to answer briefly.

In the second part of today’s meeting, some of my colleagues from across Canada will be coming to talk to you about Welcoming Francophone Communities; that, in fact, is the project I’ve been talking about.

The Welcoming Francophone Communities initiative is a pilot project that was established by IRCC in 14 communities across the country. In my region, Hawkesbury was chosen. Money is invested in the community so that it can become a welcoming community for francophone immigration.

The three-year pilot project was extended for a year because of the pandemic. It has been working very well. In Hawkesbury, it has certainly been successful.

You mentioned a critical mass of francophones; I am in fact from the Ontario region.

Senator Dalphond: When you say that you have been successful, can you give us some numbers? Are we talking about 10 people, 100 people? What’s the magnitude?

Ms. Duguay Langlais: You want to know the scale?

Well, we have already welcomed some people. The goal of the project was not to receive people. We weren’t doing any recruiting. What we were doing was preparing our community for three years so that it could become a community that could welcome people. Not recruitment. However, as we have a good communication system, the project led to people being recruited without necessarily trying to do so.

It’s interesting to see how people who have believed in immigration for a long time see it as welcoming, accepting, and less fearful of things that are foreign and different. They dare to be awkward, if I can put it that way. I’ve often used that expression, “dare to be awkward.” We can talk and ask questions because we are curious about who our neighbours are, about who this person who has come to live in our community really is. We’ve seen a lot of that.

The cultural centre developed a multicultural program. Many initiatives were launched, and the end result is that people who come to these communities are happy. It’s a very small region, but employment is not a problem, even though there is a major shortage of jobs in this small region. I’m sure that you’re going to hear more about Welcoming Francophone Communities later. When you do, you’ll see just how crucial and important they are.

I’d like to take a few minutes to answer your question about the critical mass of francophones. I too have the same problems because our large critical mass of francophones is in Ottawa. Ottawa is one of the cities we work with, but we also work with cities like Cornwall. In passing, I’d like to say hello to Senator Clement, who always supported us in Cornwall.

There is work to be done in Cornwall in terms of growing and strengthening the francophone community. Kingston is also part of our area. Ottawa provides lots of services, but elsewhere, we have an enormous amount of work to do. I face the same challenges as my colleagues, apart from what Mr. Bararuzunza mentioned earlier. In terms of education, our region is pampered. We have very good francophone post-secondary institutions.

The Chair: Would anyone else like to answer Senator Dalphond’s question? No? Okay.

Senator Moncion: My question is mainly about immigration planning.

What kind of planning do you do? It’s all very well to want to welcome the francophones who come to our cities, but if we don’t have housing for them and if there’s no room for them, where are we going to put them?

I’d like to know what kind of planning is being done. The Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada said that he was going to bring 500,000 immigrants to Canada, but what kind of planning is being done? Do you look at the situation and decide that you need 25 people in this city, 40 in another and 75 in another? Is this kind of planning being done or are funds just sent to the communities without knowing whether the needs and capacities of the various communities are adequate?

I’d like to know whether a study has been conducted on the needs and capacities of each community, so that it’s not just a blanket immigration target, but carried strategically.

Has a study or any other work of this kind been done within your various organizations?

The Chair: Who can answer this question?

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I’ll try to answer it. I might ask for help from my colleagues. I know that a study was published on this. I don’t know whether my colleagues are aware of it.

A study related to the point you just raised was published recently, Senator Moncion.

I’ll do check it out and send the study to the clerk so that she can pass it on to you. I can’t remember where this study was done.

In any event, it will depend on how our intake capacity is evaluated. If the decision is to evaluate this capacity in terms of needs, then we don’t have the housing capacity. It’s scary, because we have these needs. I put both aspects on the same footing. I don’t know quite to whom I should be mentioning it, but immigration has to be linked to housing because otherwise our societal projects will not succeed. Our immigration plans will fail.

I work a lot in rural communities, and our communities are amazing. They are innovative. You can’t imagine the trouble they go through to find ways of welcoming and housing people. It’s all very well to see this effort, but it’s not something for which the communities or individuals in the communities are responsible for.

We manage to come up with all kinds of solutions, but at some point, we’re exhausted and eventually run out of ways of getting it done. We worry about it. We’re ready to host these people, but we don’t have enough housing.

The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Duguay Langlais. Ms. Fournier, do you have anything to add?

Ms. Fournier: In fact, our organization conducted two studies, one of which was published recently. This one did not, as you said, address planning issues, but rather sought to learn about what newcomers experience in our region along with current francophone immigration trends in the Northwest Territories.

Another study will be published in the spring. It will cover the Prairies, meaning Western and Northern Canada, including Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Nunavut, which is more to the east, but part of the North. The study will be coming up with some very interesting data.

The point you raised is very relevant. I think that there really isn’t any Canada-wide planning. That, to a degree, is what we are complaining about to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, namely the way the department is managing immigration at the moment. There are general immigration programs that simply try to attract as many francophones as possible, or to add a francophone component by simply translating documents. The programs are not at all strategic and not targeted on the basis of the needs and priorities of each region, and Canada as a whole. That’s something that really needs to be done.

I therefore support you in your efforts.

The Chair: Does Mr. Bararuzunza have something to say? Go ahead, Mr. Bararuzunza.

Mr. Bararuzunza: I would in fact like to add that there are some studies available in Saskatchewan, one of which was conducted last year. It covers the Prairies and the Northwest Territories.

There is another study under way, but most of the studies published since 2018 address the recruitment, settlement, integration and retention of francophones in our provinces.

Broadly speaking, planning, including for housing, should be integrated into studies carried out jointly with a number of departments. It’s not just IRCC that should be conducting such studies. The housing issue has to be dealt with by other departments that have this area among their responsibilities.

Your concerns are therefore well founded. Joint planning is essential. As Ms. Duguay Langlais said, it’s not only IRCC that should be involved in planning. IRCC needs support from other departments, both federal and provincial.

The Chair: Ms. Duguay Langlais, do you have anything to add?

Ms. Duguay Langlais: Only what Mr. Bararuzunza just said. Other departments have responsibilities in connection with studies of this kind.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Clement: First, good evening to all the witnesses. Thank you for being here with us.

And I’ll say hello back to Ms. Duguay Langlais. I’m not at all surprised to see you here as an expert witness. My initial question is for you, Ms. Duguay Langlais.

After that, I will have a question for the three witnesses.

Ms. Duguay Langlais, in your comments, you mentioned that the locations of the international offices should perhaps be reconsidered, but you also said that we needed to rethink which countries should be targeted by the recruitment program. Could you provide more details about that?

My second question, about the networks, is for all the witnesses. You all have various partners, and some have more resources than others. Speaking of investments, where should they be going exactly? Who, within these networks, needs more resources?

It’s really the community organizations. You spoke about all the work involved in accountability. What should we be aiming at in terms of investments? I understand the housing issue, but I’d like to exclude that from my question.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: Until 2020, there was only one support program for the resettlement of francophone refugees in Canada, compared to several dozen anglophone programs across the country. Since 2020, there has been a second resettlement support program for francophone refugees in Cornwall. Everyone at my host organization, the Economic and Social Council of Ottawa-Carleton (CESOC), which coordinated the project, was overjoyed.

After a year and a half of having a francophone reception area in Cornwall, we didn’t get a single francophone refugee. We wondered what was going on. So we checked with IRCC and were told that people working in the field probably needed a reminder, because they likely didn’t know that people in Cornwall could speak French.

They were recruiting in refugee camps elsewhere. Since then, we’ve been receiving dozens of people, including from Congo, people from the refugee camps. All of that needs to be rethought urgently by the federal government. The new culture needs to be understood, otherwise the recruitment office will continue to operate as if it were 1990 or 2005. The connections have to be made on the ground in terms of choosing the countries and locations for these offices. I was told that Canada had 23 recruitment offices abroad and that only one was in a francophone country. I don’t know whether that’s correct, but I believe the proportion is realistic. Today, with the latest federal government and IRCC philosophy, things can’t continue like that. Has anyone thought of how to change things?

I can perhaps move on to the second question, and then allow my colleagues to intervene. You are aware of the fact that IRCC has established the francophone integration process. Newcomers are taken in hand as of pre-departure. There is a new francophone project in which services are provided to francophone immigrants who want to settle in Canada even before they arrive in Canada, and they continue until they have become citizens. Depending on what region of Canada is involved, the sequence of the steps in the process may vary. The senator mentioned this just now when talking about my region.

I’m very lucky where I live. In eastern Ontario, the process is very straightforward. What I mean is that I have services available in French at every step in the process: settlement, employability, housing and children’s education. I have good schools and everything else in my area.

However, there are parts of Canada where the process is pathetic and where there might be one or two pre-departure services and help with citizenship. Investment is needed to make the process as seamless as possible across Canada.

Priorities services need to be established for every one of the steps in the process funded by IRCC.

The Chair: Thank you for your answers to these questions.

Ms. Fournier: That was a difficult question for me because when you’re asked to set priorities, you have to make choices and eliminate certain things. I eventually came to the conclusion that it was hard. Too hard, because really, as you mentioned, Ms. Duguay Langlais, it’s the whole continuum for all services. There was talk of early childhood, because when people arrive, they need daycare services, they need to find a place for their children at a francophone school, and they need to know what to do to find a job.

It might even be a good idea to do some training and some of the intake steps with post-secondary integration services. Here, the services are nearly all provided by the community. Of course, organizations would need to be given the resources and support they need to be able to continue with their work and further develop some services, such as additional spaces in daycare and schools so that they could meet demand. Here, there are waiting lists. It’s too bad, but some people are returning to the English-language system.

Senator Clement: I understand. Thank you.

Mr. Bararuzunza: I would say that the needs of francophones in official language minority communities like the ones in Saskatchewan are in a situation that is perpetually changing. At the moment, resources are considered stable over time. The financial resources for the organizations that deal with the reception, settlement and inclusion of francophones are stable over time, but needs continue to grow.

I’m certain that all the francophone organizations in Saskatchewan are lacking some of the resources needed to perform their role properly. I’m tempted to say that in every sector there is really a need for more financial resources on the one hand, and on the other, the resources that accompany the financial side of things. I want to talk about housing. You can’t receive a growing number of people if you’re short on housing. Allow me to repeat that in Saskatchewan, the priority issue is university education. At the moment, it’s impossible to envision the establishment of another university. The least expensive solution would probably be to diversify the University of Regina and add a number of faculties. It could certainly be done gradually, but it would have to become truly bilingual, like the University of Ottawa and other universities in Ontario.

Senator Clement: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you for your answers. It’s my turn now to ask questions. I’d like to continue with the integration process. Ms. Duguay Langlais, you said that immigration is a societal project. It’s true that there are all kinds of players involved and that it’s important to make sure that none of the links in the integration process chain are broken… There are a lot of factors, for example, the policy on francophone immigration that will eventually be introduced.

Who, in your communities, handles this kind of multisectoral coordination in order to come up with strategic immigration objectives, as Senator Moncion pointed out?

There are a lot of players; that has always been the case with immigration. For starters, is there a coordination mechanism that has appropriate support? Should there be a different way of doing things? Should areas of responsibility be specified more clearly? I’d like to hear you talk about this. We do in fact get the impression that everyone is involved in immigration, but that perhaps the coordination of it all in the field may not be as much in evidence as we would like. I’m still thinking of the francophone immigration policy here. If you have any recommendations in this regard. I’ll begin with Ms. Fournier.

Ms. Fournier: As I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation, the Francophone Immigration Network of the Northwest Territories performs the role of an issue table, under the auspices of the Fédération franco-ténoise, which is the organization that speaks on behalf of the francophone community to the various levels of government. So there is this committee or group that does the work, but that doesn’t mean that there are not others. There are also working committees in the territorial government that often have many of the same members. We see the same faces all the time, but that doesn’t mean these committees are completely useless. They all have different objectives.

There are also groups that provide coordination throughout the territory or by region, such as groups that provide coordination for the western and northern regions. To return to what I was saying about the burden on organizations, we are really being micromanaged. We have only a single employee at the network and very few human resources to do all the work; of course, there are many layers of coordination, and I don’t think anything is missing, but is this efficient? We could return to this topic later.

I would nevertheless say that it may be necessary to specify mandates or roles that would provide more resources to those who perform a coordination role, because right now, I don’t think these organizations have the means they need to achieve their ambitions. They are trying to get everyone together at their table, but they have little to offer them apart from their own wages. There are therefore very few means to promote the work of their members, or to do more than simply have them attend a meeting once every three months. Once again, it’s a matter of resources.

The Chair: Thank you. Ms. Duguay Langlais?

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I’m going to go in a completely different direction from my colleague, Ms. Fournier. With us, the Francophone immigration network of Eastern Ontario coordinates everything. We have more than 75 partners who work closely or remotely on francophone immigration. There are subgroups and subcommittees. When the refugee issue came up, we established a refugees committee with those members who were interested in contributing.

It’s still like that, because I have all kinds of partners and it’s essential for everything to be coordinated. You are definitely correct, Senator Cormier, in saying that you have to have a form synergy that binds everyone together and generates this movement and this ecosystem. Our network has created an ecosystem which ensures that when there are questions at IRCC or the federal government, they always go through the network. We send representatives into the field and make sure that they find the right players. I have all kinds of options, unlike my colleague, Audrey. With us, it has to be done like that.

Not only that, but where we are, there’s a great deal of trust in the network; we make sure that things get done and strive to keep the process from becoming fragmented.

Mr. Bararuzunza: Many answers have already been given by my predecessors. I would like to simply add something pertaining to the big question of respect for the “by and for francophones” principle. In Saskatchewan, I must say that housing is managed by anglophones. When there are newcomers, they are welcomed by anglophones, who provide them with housing and cheques for their initial financial needs.

From that point on, newcomers get the impression that the reception structure speaks mainly English, and it has resources, which is where the language assimilation begins to happen, because when they arrive they are welcomed, financed, housed and fed by anglophones. Afterwards, francophones handle the reception process from what is called the community links and social relations standpoint. However, of the two types of reception, one seems more real for people in need than the other.

I would therefore say that the coordination system for the integration process should, both upstream and downstream, comply with the “by and for” principle. That means giving resources to francophones, housing francophones who have just arrived, feeding them, educating them, settling them, and including them so that they can feel that francophone organizations have the capacity to take care of them. That’s the new factor I would like to bring to this table.

The Chair: I’ll ask Ms. Duguay Langlais to respond to this comment, but as a sub-question, do you have any recommendations to make with respect to federal-provincial-territorial agreements? We know that money is important. Are there things which, in your opinion, are inevitable? What should be in these agreements to ensure that the provinces factor in everything you have just said about resource allocation? Is there a link to be made? That’s my sub-question, but first, I’ll let Ms. Duguay Langlais speak, because she wanted to comment on the previous question.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: Please allow me not to answer your last question. That’s something I still consider to be highly politicized. I want to stick to my convictions and won’t answer. I might say things that I shouldn’t. I’ll give you an example.

What Ferdinand said is genuinely true. Being welcomed by francophones, by a francophone organization, changes everything. I’ve always said that the most serious thing that ever happens in a francophone community is when it loses its francophone day care centre. It’s a disaster for a community, and a francophone community should never lose its day care.

I’ll give you the example of the Pearson project. For years, we were asking for a francophone kiosk at Pearson airport to welcome francophone immigrants arriving in Canada to provide them with information about the Canadian francophonie. We argued with IRCC because the network was there and was providing services at Pearson... The most recent statistics showed IRCC that 11 francophones had immigrated here, and that it really wasn’t worth the trouble to have a francophone kiosk. Eleven people at Pearson airport out of a total of how many immigrants? It was ridiculous, and IRCC stuck to the statistics.

At one point, IRCC took the risk, “Build it and they will come.” That’s when IRCC took the big step in 2020, and I take my hat off to them for that. IRCC established the francophone program and in the first year, that program was able to recruit over 2,000 francophones who stopped by their booth. Do you know how far IRCC has come today? I take my hat off to them in front of you; IRCC has handed the entire welcome service at Pearson airport to the Centre francophone du Grand Toronto (CFGT). That means that it welcomes francophones, anglophones and allophones. Now, that’s a successful project. We are also able to welcome anglophones and refer them to their people, but we need to stop always putting the anglophone world in the foreground. That’s an IRCC success story at Pearson.

The Chair: I’m going to ask one last quick question to everyone. I know we don’t have a lot of time, because we need to wrap up. This question is important to me.

On November 11, the Réseau en immigration francophone du Centre-Sud-Ouest de l’Ontario introduced a new free mobile app to support the francophone integration journey in Ontario. The features of this new app called GuideMoi include an interactive map of francophone services in the region.

Are you aware of this new app and, if so, do you believe that an app like this is a necessary tool to support the integration journey? How can digital technology and the Internet be used to facilitate the journey for a newcomer? What are your thoughts on this? Quickly, since we’re at the end of our meeting.

Ms. Duguay Langlais: I will say to you that they are my colleagues. We have three networks in Ontario. Central-Southwestern is my colleague, and Northern is also my colleague. We worked with them on her app and we really believe in it. I think it’s nice that you’re calling it a great success story. We’re also part of the GuideMoi app. Our resources are there for Eastern Ontario as well and we’ll eventually have it across Ontario. We love this initiative. We’re working together and we’ll continue to work together. I think that’s the future. It’s one of many solutions.

The Chair: Thank you. Mr. Bararuzunza?

Mr. Bararuzunza: I would say that we know this app. It’s really very useful. Kudos to the people who thought of it. It’s a good initiative.

In Saskatchewan, we have the pre-departure newcomer’s booklet, where we explain what we have to offer to future newcomers in Canada. The newcomer’s booklet has the same information. People are informed when they arrive. The information we give to future newcomers would likely not be our biggest problem.

Ms. Fournier: I wasn’t aware of the app. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into it. If I can go back to your other question, generally speaking, as with all agreements, we support adding language provisions to agreements between the federal government and the provinces and territories, and certainly getting into the good habit of consulting with francophone communities before these agreements are signed.

There you go. Otherwise, I don’t have anything to add about the use of technology.

The Chair: Thank you very much. Ms. Duguay Langlais, Ms. Fournier, Mr. Bararuzunza, thank you very much for your remarks and your responses. You have very much enlightened our discussion. That will certainly help us as we write our report on this study we’re doing about francophone immigration.

Thank you. Esteemed colleagues, we’re going to take a break while we welcome our next witnesses.

Have a pleasant evening, ladies and gentlemen.

We are back in session. We now have with us representatives of two welcoming francophone communities. Tonight we welcome, from the Welcoming Francophone Community of Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg in Saskatchewan, Chantal Morin, Coordinator, and Sandrine Lebon, Project Officer. Also with us, from the Welcoming Francophone Community of Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories, Lisa Boisneault, Coordinator, and Jean-Marie Mariez, Supervisor of Instruction, French Programs.

Welcome to our committee and thank you for accepting the invitation. We’ll hear your testimony, and then we’ll go to questions. I remind my esteemed colleagues in the room not too lean in to close to their microphones or remove their headsets, so as not to interfere with the interpretation.

We’ll start with Ms. Morin. The floor is yours. [Technical difficulties] We can’t hear you, Ms. Morin. While you sort out the technical difficulties, we’ll begin with Ms. Boisneault and Mr. Mariez.

Lisa Boisneault, Coordinator, Welcoming Francophone Community of Yellowknife: Good evening. I’m joined by Jean-Marie Mariez, who is a member of my community advisory committee. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to testify about Far North realities.

First, I’d like to do a quick demographic profile for you to provide a better understanding of realities in the area.

About 40,000 people live in the Northwest Territories. The total migrant population is 3,700, the francophone population is 1,290 and the francophone immigrant population is 160.

It’s like my colleague Audrey from FINNWT said, it’s a small community. However, unlike other WFCs, Yellowknife is the capital, and newcomers arrive here.

The Northwest Territories attracts newcomers because of employment, meaning people come here if they have a job. There’s a need for employment, but there’s also a need for community connections and social and recreational activities. That’s where the WFC comes in, because the WFC is part of the francophone integration and settlement journey. We’re located in the Intercultural Centre NWT, a bilingual centre that brings together all integration and settlement services in the Northwest Territories. It’s really a great help to have all the services in one place, certainly for a newcomer’s journey.

Francophone newcomers come to us if they have a job here, but they’re also looking for the northern adventure. I thought it was important to mention this to help you understand our audience and the nature of the activities we offer.

With the WFC, we do about a dozen activities a year, among other things, ranging from northern lights hunting to hiking, fishing, and fur mitt making. We organize a lot of activities typical of the Far North and adventure. The community is asking for these activities and they are successful. It’s expensive to live in the Northwest Territories and we’re able to make these activities accessible and, more importantly, hold them in French. Yellowknife has very few activities in French.

Quickly, in 2021-22, we received 40 francophone newcomers and 40 francophone Canadians. We’re also working on a component to raise awareness among employers; this is very important, we’re organizing an employer conference as part of the Northwest Territories Economic Development Council’s Provincial Pan–Territorial Liaison Tour. We’re doing this as a group, with Nunavut, Yukon and Newfoundland and Labrador, as we face the same issues in attracting immigrants, as well as employability challenges and challenges in retaining newcomers.

We also face a big challenge related to the accessibility of services in French. I don’t believe we are the only ones, but we’re also making efforts in that regard.

We’ve also launched a health guide in print and digital format that’s available online. We’re also planning an annual newcomer day and we have a paper guide for them, because it’s generally pretty hard to access some of the services in French here; they exist, but that doesn’t mean you have access to them.

Beyond IRCC, the immigration issue involves other services and the WFC is addressing other issues through some initiatives.

I will now turn to the challenges we can face.

First, the WFC can only provide services to newcomers who are permanent residents. That’s true for most settlement services. This is an issue because in the North, many newcomers are temporary workers who have no access to our services when they really need them. They need the services, community connections, and those resources.

As I was saying earlier, people arrive with a job, but they have no access to services. They’re in a pretty harsh environment that has housing challenges. We don’t have a university, so we can’t really get any students.

Sometimes, health services are available, but it’s hard to get them in French. It’s not enough and we risk losing the newcomers; we’re already having trouble retaining them, so we’re trying to put the odds in our favour, because people aren’t just going to move to another city in the Northwest Territories — we’re the biggest city — they’re going to leave the Northwest Territories altogether.

Beyond the community need, the WFCs are a great initiative that encourage people to stay here in the long run. The idea is to build a bridge on the immigration journey between temporary and permanent residency.

The FINNWT even did a study on what francophone newcomers are like; the WFC is one of the initiatives that motivated some newcomers to stay in the country and apply for permanent residency.

For us, based on our discussions with WFC counterparts across the country, one promising solution would be to consider expanding the WFC’s clientele.

The second challenge concerns matchup activities. They were first designed to match up a resident with a newcomer for the long term. It’s been difficult to get people involved, especially given the turnover, because not many stay here more than five years, or even more than two or three years. So we’ve had a hard time sustaining long-term matches. We had to adapt the system to our reality, so we now match people based on activities.

My point here is that it’s important to leave some wiggle room for the WFCs and organizations in general that know and experience their realities, because they ultimately know what works and what doesn’t work on the ground.

In addition, we realized that the issues vary greatly from WFC to WFC. Canada is a big country — I’ve come to understand that — and our issues and audiences, in Yellowknife at least, are more similar to other northern WFCs like the WFC of Nunavut and Yukon. In fact, we northern WFCs share a great deal. I believe it’s a good practice to get together with other WFCs that share the same issues.

Lastly, our final challenge is our mission, which is to provide services and activities, in French, of course. However, the reality is that there are more anglophone providers here. In addition, we have Indigenous activities in our community plan to introduce newcomers to those cultures, including history, traditions and languages, but we also need to take into account that they speak their language. Indigenous people here speak Dene, Inuktitut, North Slave and English, but rarely French.

We didn’t set aside a budget for interpretation. It’s my duty to share this required adjustment with you, and I feel it goes back to my previous point, that we need some leeway for flexibility and to be able to hear what the WFCs need, as they can share what’s happening on the ground.

So that’s it for the challenges.

In closing, I’d like to say that the WFC is a great initiative that we hope will become a permanent IRCC project.

Ms. Duguay Langlais mentioned earlier that investments are key. I would even add that investments in the right places, strategic investments in line with needs on the ground, are important. You have to consider northern realities and the cost of living, which is quite high.

I’d also like to add that we invested $42,440 in the local economy, which is 91% of the budget allocated for the activities of 35 organizations in Yellowknife. I will stop here. The WFC is an initiative that benefits not only newcomers, but the entire community, at least in Yellowknife.

The Chair: Thank you for the presentation, Ms. Boisneault. We now go to Ms. Morin and Ms. Lebon.

Ms. Morin, you have the floor.

Chantal Morin, Coordinator, Welcoming Francophone Community of Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg: Good afternoon. We’re pleased to be with you today.

I’m Chantal Morin, coordinator of the welcoming francophone community in Saskatchewan, and I’m joined by my colleague, project officer Sandrine Lebon.

The WFC in Saskatchewan promotes inclusion and provides welcome activities while developing community leadership. The initiative works to encourage participation in community activities and seek opportunities of all kinds for newcomers in Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg.

In the early 2000s, the Canadian government understood that in order to maintain the demographic weight of the francophone Canadians in minority settings, Canada would have to meet a minimum intake target.

The demographic weight at that time was 4.4% on average across the country.

Since then, we’ve never reached the target number of francophone immigrants, although Canada continues to take in more immigrants each year. According to the latest statistics, the demographic weight of people whose first language is French in Canada is about 3.8%. The demographic weight of people whose first language is French in Saskatchewan is at its lowest level ever, 1.1%.

Francophone migration is crucial to the development of the Fransaskois community. As my colleague from FIN said, the Fransaskois community has an aging population. Its members are leaving; the youngest members often leave the province for other provinces and the community is experiencing linguistic assimilation. For immigration to have a real impact, Saskatchewan would have to take in many more francophone immigrants than it does right now.

In 30 years, the demographic weight of Saskatchewan residents whose first language is French went from 2.3% to 1.1%. However, the percentage of people who speak French in Saskatchewan has remained relatively stable, at 5%, during the same period. According to the 2021 Census, 52,000 individuals can speak French in Saskatchewan.

Bill C-13 includes a francophone immigration section, so IRCC administrators and officials will not lose sight of our communities as they perform their duties. The section requires that the department adopt a policy on francophone immigration. The policy should include catch-up targets that go well beyond the 4.4% identified over 15 years ago already.

A recent study by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne puts forward a plan that gradually increases targets to reach 20% in 2036. According to that study, the French language will continue to decline in Canada.

We’re asking the federal government to develop a Francophone immigration policy, while also establishing programs and taking specific measures to correct the situation in which minority communities grow.

We need measures developed by and for francophones, rather than requiring francophones to try to operate within the programs provided for the majority whose criteria are often impossible to meet.

An example of this is the whole issue of service areas designated by the majority, which don’t apply to the francophone communities, and — especially in Saskatchewan — are often far apart.

The new policy should include a separate francophone economic immigration program aligned with the needs of francophone communities and employers. The department should also plan to implement a francophone component of the family sponsorship class as well as increase the number of refugees from French-speaking countries.

In our view, provincial nominee programs must also have a francophone component to guide the selection of immigrants. In Saskatchewan, the issue of settlement in rural areas is more prominent because we have a shortage of people providing basic services in these areas, such as teaching, health care, business, farming, and so on. By initiating more projects like WFCs in remote and rural areas, we believe we can bring up the attraction and retention rate for francophone immigrants in these regions.

Many factors are at play in the whole welcoming process and they have long-term consequences for newcomers and the settlement success rate. One factor is IRCC’s limited capacity. We’ve seen to what extent international crises have taken up our program officers’ time at IRCC. The displacement of people during the civil war in Syria, the Canadian military pulling out of Afghanistan, and most recently the invasion of Ukraine, to name a few, have significantly reduced the officials’ ability to deliver programs that affect us; and it all delays francophone immigration.

We’re not saying that Canada shouldn’t respond to humanitarian crises; on the contrary. However, we do want to point out that the department must have the capacity and resources to respond to emergencies without completely compromising its regular operations.

We recognize that the lack of resources and services in rural areas has an impact on settlement in remote locations. Public transit is a good example. For the past six years, Saskatchewan has not had rural bus service. This lack of affordable transportation undermines our ability to attract and retain people. People have organized to provide emergency transportation, but that’s no substitute for reliable, affordable transportation services.

Health care services, cultural events and government service points are concentrated in the largest urban centres. Affordable housing is also an issue that affects people who may not be able to afford housing upon arrival.

However, we believe that francophone immigration directed to remote areas has the potential to meet the aspirations of many individuals seeking to settle in Canada. Directing some newcomers to smaller towns can provide enriching opportunities for many. The challenge will be for us to rethink how these settings are promoted and how we prepare host communities.

In closing, we’re convinced that francophone immigration is crucial to the continued development of the Francophonie in Saskatchewan. With its network of francophone organizations, the community has been working towards this goal for nearly 20 years. The ACF, SAIF-SK, WFCs and members of the FIN-SK are ready to work with the Government of Canada to carry out IRCC’s action plan for the Canadian Francophonie.

I have the same recommendations as my colleague from the FIN-SK, so I won’t bother repeating them. Thank you very much.

The Chair: We are now ready to go to questions, starting with Senator Mégie.

Senator Mégie: My question is for both witnesses. Thank you for being with us today.

I gather from Ms. Boisneault’s presentation that the welcoming francophone communities initiative has been very successful. However, I heard that there are only 14 welcoming francophone communities across the country.

Should the francophone welcoming communities initiative be further expanded? Do you know if the funding for your respective welcoming communities will be renewed or is that a concern for you?

Ms. Boisneault: With respect to the first part of your question, yes, it would be excellent if the francophone welcoming communities initiative were to be expanded. We can see it’s getting results. Of course, there’s room for improvement. Some things need to be added and others adjusted. That’s why we’re there. It’s still a pilot project. It’s the right time to do it.

Yes, it would be truly wonderful to have other communities in other provinces and territories. We have a few francophones outside Yellowknife, so why not develop that? For example, in Hay River, which is a five-hour drive from Yellowknife, you can’t get there and back in one day. So it would be good to have activities for newcomers in their community. I don’t necessarily know all of Canada, but in the Northwest Territories the towns are far from each other and you can rarely get there and back in one day. The nearest city is three hours away and the closest major urban centre is Edmonton, and that’s 1,500 kilometres away. We do have an isolation factor. Welcoming francophone communities would be a good idea.

Regarding the second part of your question, could you repeat it, please?

Senator Mégie: Is your funding in jeopardy or are you confident that funding will come regularly?

Ms. Boisneault: I can’t exactly answer that question. In any event, over the long term, our funding is guaranteed until the end of the pilot project. After that, I believe it’s still under discussion.

Maybe Chantal can confirm that, but that’s what I’ve been told on my end.

Senator Mégie: What’s the end date for the pilot project?

Ms. Boisneault: It will fall in March 2024. It was supposed to end in March 2023, but the project was extended for a year.

Ms. Morin: With respect to what Ms. Boisneault just said about francophone communities and the desire to grow, you have to understand that it varies from province to province. I know that here in Saskatchewan, we don’t have enough people to have only one community. Personally, what I’d like to see are welcoming francophone community regions rather than just a single region. We have communities 45 minutes away from us and we’re the closest welcoming francophone community, but those communities are not in our region. Things are done by community, so that one is outside our district. We can’t accommodate them.

It might be different in Ontario or Alberta. I can’t speak for the other provinces, but I know that in Saskatchewan we have small francophone communities that are a bit more distant from each other.

Senator Mégie: Does your pilot project end on the same date as Ms. Boisneault’s?

Ms. Morin: It does, yes, in March 2024.

Senator Mégie: Perfect. Thank you.

Senator Gagné: I’d like to welcome the witnesses. It’s a pleasure to have you here this evening.

I’m trying to understand the collaborative work you set up with your communities, but also with municipalities. You pointed out a series of challenges in terms of improving transportation and connectivity infrastructure. I’m also thinking of the housing issue that’s been brought up by other witnesses. if you read the newspaper every day, you realize that’s a big challenge for our communities.

Do you connect with municipalities, so that you can work together to better serve newcomers, immigrants or temporary workers who come to your cities or communities? I’d like to hear what you have to say about that, please.

Ms. Boisneault: That’s a very good point, that connection with the municipality. You mentioned temporary workers, who normally have no access to WFC services and activities. It should be said that perhaps that issue could be improved. Otherwise, we’re quite pleased because we’re able to work with the city.

I talked about our annual newcomer day in my presentation. It’s a partnership with the city. Once a year, we gather all community services for newcomers in one place. We often do it in a park — if it’s not too cold — that the municipality allows us to use. The city is there as well and they support us. This helps newcomers gain access to community services. We have daycare, sports, the library, and so on. The city is very supportive of the event.

Jean-Marie, would you like to talk more about the connection between the school and the municipality? Jean-Marie is a member of my committee and has lived in Yellowknife for quite some time.

Jean-Marie Mariez, Supervisor of Instruction, French Programs, Welcoming Francophone Community of Yellowknife: We have an excellent relationship with the City of Yellowknife. The mayor and former mayor have been staunch supporters of newcomers, whether they come from other provinces or other countries.

Our city continues to grow tremendously and we have a major housing crisis on our hands. It’s an issue right across the country, but the cost of living is high. The first year is always quite difficult for newcomers, whether they come from another country or somewhere else in Canada.

So, we have that to deal with. Plus, it’s winter, and that’s another hurdle.

Ms. Boisneault: You’re right, the mayor is very approachable. That may give us a big advantage over other regions.

Mr. Mariez: She speaks French.

Ms. Boisneault: Yes, she’s happy to speak French when she gives speeches for the WFC. That’s an advantage.

Mr. Mariez: The city is very open.

Ms. Morin: To answer your question, it’s crucial that all levels of government be at the table. For example, we’re in a predominantly English-speaking region. We have no choice but to partner with chambers of commerce, municipalities and other English-speaking partners. They also have the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot in Moose Jaw. If we want to be successful, we have to partner with all stakeholders.

The Chair: Thank you for your response.

Senator Moncion: I have a two-part question. First, Ms. Morin, you talked about the demographic weight of francophones dwindling, but has the demographic weight of anglophones gone up? The demographic weight of francophones is actually about the same, but has anglophone immigration affected the numbers, or do you have data showing that people are leaving Saskatchewan to go settle elsewhere?

That’s my first question. Then I have a related question.

Ms. Morin: Right now, the population is growing. The anglophone population hasn’t declined. Most immigrants arriving in Saskatchewan are either anglophone or allophone. Very few francophones are arriving in the province.

Senator Moncion: They are likely coming to start a job and settle in with their family.

My next question is for you and I will also ask the representatives of the Welcoming Francophone Community of Yellowknife. I understand that the challenges related to the climate and location are different. Is it hard for you to attract and retain newcomers or to provide services to people who come either to Saskatchewan, the Northwest Territories or Yellowknife?

Ms. Morin: All three, basically. First, we have to get them to come here, so we must attract them. When Canada is promoted as a country, people often hear about cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. They hear very little about Saskatchewan. We really need to make all parts of the country attractive so that newcomers can make an informed choice and decide where they want to go. That answers the first part of the question.

With respect to retention, if we lack the services to welcome immigrants… Transportation plays a key role in helping to retain the newcomers who arrive here. If we have them come to Gravelbourg, one of our communities, the closest town is an hour’s drive away. If they have no driver’s license, those individuals will have to depend on neighbours or friends to drive them into town for such things as their medical appointments, the airport, or to go shopping. Gravelbourg has basic services at least. However, transportation is a major factor in retention.

Senator Moncion: Actually, I would say it’s the big challenge for all rural communities and those far from major urban centres.

Sandrine Lebon, Project Officer (Welcoming Francophone Community of Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg): I’ll answer the second question. I work more on the ground and I’ve noticed that a number of Moose Jaw residents have left the region to move to Quebec. The main reasons are salary, few job opportunities and credential recognition, which is a huge issue. Unfortunately, many members of my family have left. Those are the three main reasons they did so. I felt I should add that to Chantal’s response.

Ms. Boisneault: I mentioned in my presentation that the WFC is part of the Intercultural Centre NWT, a bilingual centre that brings together all integration and settlement services.

I spend a lot of my time on retention. We have one person dedicated to attraction and one person dedicated to intake, so direct services. The WFC is involved in retention. We’re now in the third year. Of those who were here in the first year, almost all of them are no longer here. Many have left. It’s not just us; it’s the cold and the lack of housing. The issue of credential and skills recognition is a major factor. Many can’t practise their basic profession here, especially in the medical field.

So we’re seeing a lot of turnover. That’s why the WFC focuses on retention. It does that through activities and community service, especially when it’s cold. This week the temperature will drop to -40 degrees. I won’t feel like going outside. However, if we have activities and we’re trying to bring people together, we tell ourselves that we have things going on here despite everything. That’s why we focus mostly on retention.

Senator Moncion: I’d like to better understand the realities in your area. Over the past few years, have you seen more interest from francophones, or have things remained more or less the same? The fact that francophone services are available to people that might be interested help you attract more francophone immigrants right now? Or does the demand fluctuate with the seasons, jobs and housing? My question is for Ms. Boisneault.

Ms. Boisneault: Jean-Marie may want to chime in because he’s been around much longer than I. Jean-Marie has a bird’s-eye view. I’ll let him respond.

Mr. Mariez: I’ve been here for about 30 years. We’ve seen things change. We used to have practically no services in French. We had a francophone population of 800 to 900 people in the territories. Now we have about 1,200 or 1,300.

A lot of services have been added because francophones asked for them. Health care comes to mind, for example. That’s really made people want to stay longer here in Yellowknife. Of course, people may move for family reasons or to return home. Right now, jobs are available nearly everywhere in Canada. Therefore, it’s harder for us to attract them. Immigrants are coming in and they see coming to Yellowknife as some kind of stopover. Some will stay for a while, a year or two, then head south. It’s often due to the climate and the cost. When you’re prepared to pay $2,000 in rent, you can find a more suitable rent and a job down south. These factors have an impact. We live in the North. We’re isolated and far away. However, the fact that we got more francophone services drew more francophones to us and helped us become more stable. Still, our region remains very transient and people are just passing through.

I work in education and I see that people don’t stay very long. It’s a question of services. Integration is very important. We also have to provide support in all areas. Lisa talked about services. A while back, we had someone who’s in charge of driver’s licences. We may consider these things quite mundane, but they play a very important role in facilitating integration. Building a network of friends and a social network is really important. From then on, we hope that immigrants will stay a little longer. That’s what I can contribute. We have a nice community.

Senator Moncion: And you don’t seem to mind the -40 degree temperature.

Mr. Mariez: Absolutely not. It’s all in the mind. The mind just files that information away, and there you go.

Senator Moncion: Thank you very much.

Senator Dalphond: My first question is for Ms. Boisneault or Mr. Mariez. You said that people are staying longer. You have the cold, the rents and the difficulties related to employment. You said five years at the most. Is this situation being experienced by francophones only, or is it the same for anglophones? Has it become more pronounced among francophones because services for them are more limited?

Ms. Boisneault: I can provide a partial response, and I think Mr. Mariez will want to build on it.

Mr. Mariez: No, no.

Ms. Boisneault: I just wanted to make it clear that anglophone and francophone newcomers are not the same at all, and they absolutely don’t have the same needs. It’s very different, they don’t have the same profile. It’s already hard to compare the two in economic terms. If you wanted to continue, Mr. Mariez, that’s what I wanted to say.

Mr. Mariez: I find larger families are arriving on the English side and more successfully integrating. It seems easier for them to build a social network. We see this in our schools. I talked about anglophone immigration. As far as I’m concerned, whether it’s religious communities or Muslim communities or people who come from different countries and have very different cultures, they find a way to integrate and stay longer. You see that with the kids, because you find the kids for every school year, which you don’t see as much with the francophones.

Among the francophones in education, we see more unmarried people because it’s easier for them to move around later on.

Senator Dalphond: I’d like to address the Welcoming Francophone Community of Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg, with Ms. Morin and Ms. Lebon. I see in the numbers prepared for us by the Library of Parliament analysts that 19% of Gravelbourg’s population speak French as their first official language. Also, 37% of the population have knowledge of both official languages. In contrast, in Moose Jaw, only 1% of the population speak French as their first language and just over 5% have knowledge of both official languages. When you welcome people in Saskatchewan, is your strategy to have them settle in Gravelbourg rather than Moose Jaw because Gravelbourg offers more services? Gravelbourg has a school and doctors who provide services in French, while there are no services in French in other areas?

Ms. Morin: Both communities currently offer services in French. Of course, Gravelbourg has French schools and you can get health care services in French as well. They’re mostly available in English, however, but Moose Jaw also has a French school. You can find services in French there too, but they’re mostly in English.

People won’t choose — people aren’t going to choose a community based on the percentage of francophones living there. They will choose based on work. It depends on what field they are in. We all know that there’s a labour shortage in education, health care and our businesses, both here and in other regions of Canada. People are coming mostly for work. In Gravelbourg, on the other hand — I know Ms. Morin talked about this — they welcome international students because they have a post-secondary school. We receive them but we can’t count them in our figures. These are people who want to stay. They come from countries like Congo, Burundi and various other African nations and they absolutely want to stay in Canada, but we can’t count them in our numbers because they are either temporary residents or international students.

It’s a good foot in the door, and these individuals absolutely want to stay here because they stand a good chance of finding work in their field. We have welding courses and we have a big tractor-trailer manufacturing plant. That’s great. We could keep them; they aren’t our clients, but we receive them anyway.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you.

Ms. Boisneault: The question wasn’t directed at me, but I’d like to add that we also welcome immigrants to Yellowknife whose first language is neither French nor English. It’s good to see that these individuals are aware of the opportunities the francophonie offers, and that they know there is a welcoming francophone community. We organized an event. It was a movie night, and some francophiles who aren’t fluent in French came to it because they were interested. They said they were going to attend because something was happening and it was a mainstream film. I wanted to demonstrate that the welcoming francophone community and the francophonie are an asset for the entire community, not only for francophones but a little beyond them too.

The Chair: Thank you for adding that, because you paved the way to the question I want to ask you. From the outset, we’ve heard you talk about the basic needs of immigrants, people who often come for a job and therefore need housing. You listed a number of basic needs. I’d like to hear your thoughts on cultural issues, because integrating people into our communities obviously involves all the services that we’ve talked about, but also this ability to ensure that they identify culturally with the communities to which they belong.

First of all, do you have sufficient cultural resources to do that? What issues are you experiencing? Do you have enough cultural resources available to you to help with the connection work that Ms. Boisneault has spoken at length about from the start? I would love to hear what you have to say about that.

Ms. Boisneault: It’s true that right now with the activities, we’re mostly reaching people who come from France and Belgium. When we do the matching with Canadians, many of those people are from Quebec. We open up a lot, that happens through the nature of our activities, which we make as inclusive as possible for everyone so that we foster discussion and we speak not of the francophonie, but the francophonies, that we have all these different types of French.

Then, as Mr. Mariez mentioned, we have communities living here, like the African community, Muslim community, Asian community, who stay amongst themselves, and that’s fine. We’re trying to build relationships and we do that through the nature of our activities. I talked about my movie night earlier; I had chosen a movie with testimonials by Muslim women in Canada. I contacted the Muslim Centre of Yellowknife. For our annual newcomer day, we tried to contact all the cultural organizations so that we could come together and say, “Let’s work together and show what we can do, what Yellowknife can offer, the diversity of our services and activities.” Perhaps Mr. Mariez can complete my response.

Mr. Mariez: Depending on where individuals come from, some may have an easier time integrating than others. This year, we’ve noticed some immigrants trying to find people from their country, from their region, right away — probably to make themselves feel secure. It sometimes feels like they’re going to build a ghetto for themselves. I think they want to feel safe when they first get here and it’s our job to try and help them expand their network through all sorts of activities.

I’d like to talk about the integration issue. There’s another committee called SWIS working with francophone, anglophone and allophone immigrants to help families. There’s nothing competitive about the CFA. It’s complementary work. It’s all complementary.

Finally, in education, some people don’t have experience with the educational practices in the school system, especially someone who comes in with a teaching background. Graduates of our universities with a Bachelor of Education degree have studied for two years and done a three-month practicum. That’s not enough to integrate smoothly into the system. The same is true for physicians. It takes a while for them to become functional and to develop the educational practices required to be compatible with our way of doing things. Everyone has their own unique background, based on the way they were educated and the way things work in their country. Goodness knows many graduates have studied teaching and we hire them. In my opinion, we could have coaching or a short course after the Bachelor of Education degree.

Ms. Morin: I’d like to talk about our experience. We started out in the middle of the pandemic. Several of our activities were being held online; they were networking activities and various workshops. During activities involving families or children, from one workshop to the next, people started to recognize each other and the kids would say hello to each other, even if they were from different communities. To put it in perspective, Moose Jaw is an hour and 15 minutes from Gravelbourg by car. The kids didn’t know each other because they don’t go to the same school and they’re in different communities, but after some of the activities, they started to recognize each other.

Now our activities are face to face. People now have the chance to see each other in person and it’s really nice to see the connections being made. We’ve had some great success stories. We’re making connections and if we’re doing that, people will want to stay.

If everyone remains isolated in little silos, they won’t stay here. They need a sense of belonging and community. I’m not just talking about the WFC of Moose Jaw and Gravelbourg, but WFCs across the country. When people feel welcome, you start establishing communities.

Ms. Lebon: I’d like to add something to what Ms. Morin said. We have a wonderful diversity of cultures in Saskatchewan, not just in Moose Jaw or Gravelbourg. In all the activities we’ve organized, we’ve seen the beauty of the various cultures. People are here and they’re starting to bond, no matter what country they’re from. People are connecting more, but it’s easier to make connections when people come from the same country.

As Ms. Morin said earlier, it’s true that it’s important to have all kinds of cultures. We mustn’t forget that, in a way, it starts with the kids. Even if they don’t know each other, kids will talk to each other. Kids bond, and that leads to bonding with parents too. One of our activities is with students from the post-secondary institution Collège Mathieu. They have found jobs here and we help them connect with other people who are from the same country as them. When you do activities, you see all these unifiers and the beauty in that. It’s been a great success.

The Chair: I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but just as we have economic development strategies in our communities, I imagine cultural development strategies that build relationships are important. I use the word “strategy” and I’m hearing that things are just happening naturally. Coordinating various activities helps ensure better integration from a cultural perspective.

Senator Clement: I’d like to thank all the witnesses for the work they’re doing. It’s crucial. Ms. Duguay Langlais from the previous panel described immigration as a societal project. Is fighting racism part of the WFC’s mission? Societal projects are fully inclusive. Communities must be welcoming, but sometimes people have to learn to be welcoming and face up to challenges in attitudes, prejudice and racism. Is that also part of what the WFCs do?

Ms. Morin: Absolutely. It’s one of our priorities right now. For one of our activities, we went to the schools in Moose Jaw and the school in Gravelbourg. We brought in an expert; a university professor talked to the young people about fighting racism, discrimination and stereotypes. We need to start with the youth, because they don’t know what they don’t know.

I grew up in southern Saskatchewan. We had no one from other countries coming here. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. Personally, when I started to travel, I gained an appreciation for other people’s cultures and wanted to learn more. It’s the same with children if they are educated and you start talking about it. Starting the conversation is the hardest part. People are afraid to say the wrong things.

We need to give them a safe place to have these discussions. We have to start with young people. That said, there was also a workshop for adults and people had some very rich discussions. Admittedly, it did go much deeper with the kids. The kids knew they had a safe place to talk and the discussions were extremely rich and productive.

Ms. Boisneault: What Ms. Morin said was very interesting, and I echo her words.

So far, we haven’t yet organized workshops on social justice issues, racism, and so on. Yes, immigration issues need to be addressed together, and we need to work on systemic racism. Because I myself am racialized, I can attest to that.

It has to happen through activities, because it’s important to create caring spaces. I’m in training on the subject, to learn how to be welcoming to everyone. We might also need support, as mentioned earlier, in terms of cultural differences because we do lack resources in that regard.

When we talk about racism, we do a lot of activities on Indigenous matters. Newcomers are not aware what’s going on with traditions, systemic racism against Indigenous people, missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, residential schools, and so on. They don’t necessarily know about these things, and that’s to be expected.

That’s why I think it’s our duty to inform them when we talk about Canadian history and we must tell them that Indigenous history is part of it too. We have an active approach to fighting racism with newcomers.

Mr. Mariez: I’d like to add that Yellowknife is a very special city. It’s probably one of the most welcoming cities in all of humanity. We have 26 different cultures and activities that bring people from different countries together. Our schools offer multicultural activities and luncheons. Kids and parents wear their country’s traditional clothing and prepare dishes from their country.

Where racism in Yellowknife is concerned, from what I can see, there is no racism between immigrants or racialized people. When it does happen, it’s mostly racism towards Indigenous people and that’s really what we’re working on now. We have the history to prove it, because things are getting better.

However, as Ms. Boisneault said, it would be nice if immigrants could learn about the history and the racism that exists in the Territories, in Yellowknife and in Canada.

The Chair: Thank you. With that, Ms. Boisneault, Mr. Mariez , Ms. Morin and Ms. Lebon, I’d like to thank you for being here, for testifying, and providing such clear and candid responses. As my esteemed colleague Senator Clement said, special thanks to you for the work you do out there, which is so crucial for newcomers, for those people who adopt our country, but also for Canadians because, through the work you do, you foster openness to the world and that’s very important. What you have told us will certainly help us as we write up our report for this study we’re conducting on francophone immigration.

Thank you. It may be a little too early yet, but I wish you a very happy holiday season because it’s just around the corner. Happy holidays to you. Esteemed colleagues, we are back here next week. Thank you and have a good evening.

(The committee adjourned.)