THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Monday, December 5, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met with videoconference this day at 4:06 p.m. [ET] to study matters relating to francophone immigration to minority communities.
Senator René Cormier (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: I am René Cormier, senator from New Brunswick and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages.
Before we begin, I wish to invite committee members attending today to introduce themselves.
Senator Moncion: Hello, Senator Lucie Moncion from Ontario.
Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné from Manitoba.
Senator Mégie: Senator Marie-Françoise Mégie from Quebec.
The Chair: Thank you and welcome to the meeting, colleagues. I also wish to welcome viewers across the country who may be watching.
[English]
I would like to point out that I am taking part in this meeting from within the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe Nation.
Today, we continue our study on francophone immigration to minority communities. Our meeting is in three parts of roughly 45 minutes each.
[Translation]
For the first part of the meeting, we are pleased to welcome Marie-Josée Groulx, director, workforce attraction and integration, population growth team, at Opportunities New Brunswick.
Hello, Ms. Groulx, and thank you very much for accepting our invitation to talk about francophone immigration. We are ready for your introductory remarks, which will be followed by a question and answer period for senators.
You have the floor, Ms. Groulx.
Marie-Josée Groulx, Director, Workforce Attraction and Integration, Population Growth Team, Opportunities New Brunswick: Hello, everyone. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today and for your interest in francophone immigration outside Quebec.
[English]
I will now give a short statement in French, but I’m open to answering your questions in the language of your choice.
[Translation]
As you know, New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in Canada. While that is institutional bilingualism, the phrase “the only officially bilingual province in Canada” plays a vital role in attracting and retaining francophone immigrants.
Since 2015, New Brunswick has set the ambitious target of selecting francophones to make up 33% of its candidates every year by the end of 2024. In 2015, 13% of the candidates selected by the province spoke French. In 2021, 28% of our nomination certificates were issued to candidates who speak French. For 2022, our objective is 30% and we are very close to reaching it, with just three weeks left in the calendar year.
To meet its objectives, the province works closely with institutional partners, at both the provincial and the federal levels, in order to maximize our visibility in international markets and do our best to establish ourselves in the face of the giant Quebec.
New Brunswick invests millions of dollars every year to assist newcomers, including those who speak French. Innovative measures are implemented on a regular basis to help integrate newcomers who choose to settle in our province.
Although the province does have French-speaking regions, a good understanding of English is still a prerequisite in many cases to ensure that newcomers can successfully integrate into the labour market.
This reality can also be an obstacle to the integration and retention of francophone immigrants in New Brunswick, who have trouble understanding that it is an officially bilingual province. Another obstacle to achieving our goals for francophone immigration is that employers prefer immigrants whose first Canadian language is English, including employers in regions that are primarily French-speaking.
One of the obstacles that crops up regularly is the federal government’s use of the “dual intent” provision to refuse a study permit to foreign students who wish to attend a francophone or anglophone post-secondary institution and then settle in the province.
While there are obstacles to attracting French-speaking immigrants, there are also many opportunities to strengthen or at least maintain the French fact outside Quebec.
On that note, thank you for your attention. I will be pleased to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Groulx.
We will now begin the question and answer period. I will give the floor to Senator Mégie, followed by Senator Gagné.
Senator Mégie: Thank you for being with us today, Ms. Groulx.
In your role at Opportunities New Brunswick, in terms of attracting and integrating newcomers, do you connect workers with employers and students with universities? What is your approach to immigration and how do you secure visas for them to come to Canada?
I will also ask you my second question right away. What support does the federal government provide for that role?
Ms. Groulx: Your first question has two parts. For students, it is really the post-secondary institutions themselves that are responsible for recruitment. The government does not play any role in attracting students.
If we are conducting recruitment and outreach in francophone markets, however, we always mention the fact that we have francophone post-secondary institutions up to the doctoral level. That is our role, that is my team’s role with respect to education.
As to connecting employers with workers, that is indeed part of our role. Ultimately, however, employers chose the workers they wish to hire, even though we work hard to convince them to hire French-speaking newcomers, especially in the case of employers in a primarily francophone region. The employer does have the final say though.
As to your second question about support from the federal government, embassies in French-speaking and English-speaking markets and in international markets always support us in our promotional efforts. We also have a fairly strong partnership with embassies in terms of recruitment.
Regarding support from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, we also work very closely with the department to find innovative ways of increasing the number of francophone immigrants coming to New Brunswick.
Senator Mégie: Thank you.
Senator Gagné: Welcome. I really appreciate your being here today.
For all francophone immigration programs in provinces with minority communities, it is clearly always important to strive for some linguistic balance.
In New Brunswick — the beautiful province of New Brunswick which I know well —, the target is 33% in view of the decline in the number of francophones in the province. I think we are at 30% now.
When the Société de l’Acadie du Nouveau Brunswick (SANB) appeared before the committee, they argued for a target of 50%. I think your plan is to reach 33% by 2024, if memory serves me. How can we make sure there are strategies in place to catch up, to end this decline in the demographic weight of francophones, which we also see in most places outside Quebec?
We will talk about Quebec later when another witness is with us.
Ms. Groulx: That is an excellent question. We are keeping our target at 33% for the time being, even though the demographic weight of francophones has also declined in New Brunswick. We are also working with the SANB; we know they recommend a target of 50% for francophone immigration.
In terms of catching up, as a public servant I depend on the will of elected officials. In 2024, we will have a new strategy, and it is really important for the community to pressure elected officials to see if there is some way to increase the targets for francophone immigration.
Public servants do whatever they can. Honestly, if we could exceed the targets, we would. A certain number of certificates are allotted every year which allows us to select candidates, but we still need a critical mass to increase the percentage of francophones selected.
Senator Gagné: Can you tell us about the challenges employers face in recruiting bilingual employees, in particular choosing employees who do not necessarily speak French? Is that because of a shortage of francophone candidates?
Ms. Groulx: No. Honestly, I think it is due to a lack of information. There could also be some ideas circulating about certain individuals or certain countries being more productive than other countries. The word gets around. For an entrepreneur, the most important thing is finding productive workers. If everyone says the most productive workers come from a given country and the first Canadian language in that country is English, employers spread the word, which makes things more difficult.
That creates a challenge when those people are in regions that are nearly 100% francophone and their children attend French-language schools. The parents are happy that their child will learn French, except that they can’t help their child at school. There is a real disconnect.
It is difficult to integrate people who cannot function in their community. That is a daily battle for our team, especially in the francophone rural regions of New Brunswick, to stress that people should be recruited whose first Canadian language is French.
The Chair: Before moving on to Senator Moncion, I have a supplementary question.
What would you say is needed with regard to the challenge you are describing? Should employers have additional help to welcome francophones? That is in fact what we want to be doing here with regard to francophone immigration, and I am thinking of the regions of New Brunswick that I know well. How do you think we can tackle this problem? What measures would you suggest?
In addition, what role could the federal government play in this regard? As we know, the bill calls for a clear policy on francophone immigration. In your opinion, is there a particular element that should be included in that policy to help the New Brunswick government encourage employers to hire francophone immigrants?
Ms. Groulx: I think more awareness-raising is needed, by both the provincial and the federal government. Even on our team, we are short-staffed, like just about everyone else. So we are not able to do as much awareness-raising as we would like. The federal government must make employers aware of the importance of hiring francophones in francophone or bilingual regions.
As to support in the field, the funding we receive is good. Of course, there could always be more. We would have to ask people in the field who work with newcomers who may not be francophones but end up in francophone regions. Those people would be in a better position to tell you about those challenges.
Senator Moncion: I would like to know what role racism plays in the selection of candidates, in terms of those accepted and for employment.
Ms. Groulx: That is an excellent question. Of course, as I said earlier, there are perceptions about people from certain cultures and countries, which for the most part are unfounded. Unfortunately, that is still a factor. Things have improved a great deal, however. I have worked in immigration for 10 years and have seen a big shift. Racism is still a challenge. There has been good progress nonetheless. You are right, racism is a factor in the selection of francophone newcomers.
Senator Moncion: I’ll come back to the questions my colleagues asked about employers. Recent data published by Statistics Canada about New Brunswick revealed that the proportion of workers using mostly French at work in 2021 was slightly down compared to 2016, when it was 20.9%. This follows the trend observed since 2021, when the number was 22.2%. To help reverse this trend, what strategy are you planning to implement to facilitate the integration of immigrants within New Brunswick’s public service?
Ms. Groulx: I’ve never looked into that excellent question. Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer to give you today on the work environment or language of work.
Senator Moncion: At the outset, you talked about employers’ preference for hiring unilingual anglophones. I found this comment a little disturbing, especially in a province like New Brunswick. This comes back to questions raised by my colleagues. What is being done to change this trend?
Ms. Groulx: We work with them. We are constantly trying to convince them to recruit in francophone countries. We are still more successful than we were before.
It was just a comment. It is true that this fact is troubling. Employers insist on hiring people from countries where French isn’t spoken. I presume that leads to less French being used in the workplace. At the same time, I don’t have the authority to refuse a candidate because they don’t speak the language in the region. Our programs are not designed that way. We design programs that become much more flexible if they hire francophone candidates. However, some employers insist on hiring candidates whose first language is English.
Senator Moncion: Without it being a matter of targets, could you talk about increased immigration in New Brunswick in terms of anglophones relative to francophones? For example, in Ontario, between 2012 and 2016, we saw the population grow by about 3 million. The time frame might be longer, but it was almost exclusively anglophones, which reduced the demographic weight of francophones in the province, without reducing their number. Could you talk about the trend in New Brunswick?
Ms. Groulx: Interestingly, our goal of 33% was based on the number of certificates we had at that time. In 2014, we only had access to 625 certificates a year, with 13% of our candidates being francophone immigrants. We’re talking about a reduced number of about 100 people.
In 2022, we had the opportunity to send out invitations to more than 2300 individuals and families. That means about one application per family, so over 3,000 individuals. The goal of 33% brought us up to 1,000 in terms of selection. In absolute terms, the number of francophones we’ve welcomed into New Brunswick since 2014 is 10 times higher than before. Relatively speaking, given that the number has gone up, we have more anglophone than francophones candidates. I think it leads to the francophone demographic being watered down.
The Chair: Before giving the floor to Senator Gagné, I have a comment. I want to thank you, since I noted that you can hear us, but you can’t see us.
Ms. Groulx: No, your image is frozen.
The Chair: I very much appreciate your cooperation, Ms. Groulx. We will therefore try to articulate our questions clearly.
I’d like some clarification. I’m sure I’m using the wrong term, but you just said that you were authorized for 625 candidates can you explain where this process comes from? What types of programs does it fall under?
Ms. Groulx: Under the Canada-New Brunswick Immigration Agreement, the federal government gives us a certain number of spots every year for New Brunswick. We’ve noticed an increase since 2014. The number went from 625 to 3,300 this year. We expect more growth in 2023 and in subsequent years. As you know, Canada increased its immigration targets. We therefore hope that New Brunswick will also benefit from an increase.
From 1999 to 2014, we only had one program. In 2015, the federal government set up a new program and added certificates. In 2016, the Atlantic Canada pilot project helped us welcome even more people. Since the start of 2022, the pilot project has become Atlantic Canada’s permanent immigration program. Although the program name includes the word “atlantic,” every province has a specific number, usually assigned by the federal government in March of the following year.
The Chair: That’s for both languages combined, not just francophone immigration.
Ms. Groulx: It’s for both languages combined. It really comes down to each province setting its targets. New Brunswick has an ambitious target, and for good reason. That means there isn’t a specific number for francophones and anglophones; it’s all languages combined. As I said, it’s up to each province to set its goals.
The Chair: If I understand correctly, it is New Brunswick’s government that decides on the proportion of francophone immigrants it wants to welcome.
Ms. Groulx: Yes.
The Chair: The stumbling block for reaching this target comes from the fact that employers often prefer to hire anglophone immigrants, because of their hiring criteria.
Ms. Groulx: Yes. I’m talking about employers. As for the provinces, the focus is more on economic immigration. Candidates must be selected by an employer. Or their skill level has to be high enough to settle here without a job offer, since they work in a sector that is in very high demand, such as information technology, health sciences or call centres in New Brunswick. Although they may not have a connection with an employer, once they arrive here, they are highly employable.
In New Brunswick, we prefer that people without a direct connection to the labour market before their arrival be francophone. Their application gets priority.
The Chair: As for the sectors you listed, it’s the province that chooses them. How does that selection take into account changing market needs and the demographic situation in New Brunswick?
Ms. Groulx: Those three sectors are set, but some sectors are changing. We rely on information that comes to us from the labour market. Every month, our colleagues from the Department of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour publish information on positions in demand, trends and sectors experiencing high demand. We invite people based on that demand.
Senator Gagné: So, if I understand correctly, you identified sectors where that need labour?
Ms. Groulx: Yes.
Senator Gagné: With respect to the francophone and bilingual workforce, are you able to identify the sectors that would be most in need?
Ms. Groulx: Yes. These are the teaching, early childhood and health sectors. These are jobs where you work 100% in French. So, it’s easier to identify francophone or anglophone needs in these sectors, because you work either in English or in French. These sectors are much easier to identify than other sectors. In information technology, for example, it is more difficult to know whether the employee needs to speak English or French, since we know that the working language in the computer sector is English. If the person is in Tracadie, for example, I have to check which type of worker I should go for.
Senator Gagné: I feel that foreign credential recognition is also a challenge given the labour shortage, especially in the teaching and health fields. Often you have to be recognized by the province to get certified to teach and then if it’s nurses you want to recruit, or doctors, there has to be foreign credential recognition there as well.
How do you deal with that? Are you able — I don’t know if you have enough information — to tell us how you are dealing with this challenge? Should there be collaboration with the federal government on this?
Ms. Groulx: You are right. Recognition of foreign qualifications remains a barrier across Canada. However, we are working very closely with the sectors where there are shortages to establish partnerships and create an open mind within certain professional associations that had not yet had to think about the recognition of foreign credentials, because we had a surplus of workers, or enough workers. These associations are now faced with the opposite. So, obviously, we are working with them, and we are seeing an evolution; it’s slow, but there is an evolution all the same.
With respect to the role of the federal government, that’s a good question, because skills recognition, in most trades, is a provincial jurisdiction, not a federal one. So maybe there should be some financial support for research. Some federal departments, such as Service Canada or Skills Development Canada, have invested in certain sectors, such as the health sector in New Brunswick, to accelerate skills recognition. Since this recognition is a provincial responsibility, it is a little more difficult for the federal government to play a role in this area.
Senator Gagné: If I understand correctly, the francophone immigration corridor has targeted the education sector as a priority. There is also the health sector to focus on, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Ms. Groulx: That’s what I mentioned: health, early childhood and education.
Senator Moncion: I have two questions for you.
First of all, we know that the vast majority of francophone immigration is from West Africa. From which countries does English-speaking immigration originate?
Ms. Groulx: It’s broader, because the difference between francophone and anglophone immigration is that, in the case of francophone immigrants, generally speaking, French is their mother tongue, whereas for anglophone immigrants, often English is not their mother tongue, but their first learned or chosen Canadian language. So we have applicants from China, Brazil and the Philippines [Technical difficulties].
The Chair: I will recognize Senator Moncion.
Senator Moncion: Ms. Groulx mentioned that English was the first language learned in Canada for English-speaking immigrants. She was telling us about their region of origin.
Ms. Groulx: This is not the language they learn once in Canada, but rather the language they learn before coming to Canada. Since certain language skills are required to apply for immigration, people often tend to learn English, not French. They have access to French language training, if they want it, once they arrive in the country. They come from all over the place: the Philippines, China, some Gulf countries and Brazil are source countries from which the so-called “English-speaking” applicants come, but also the United States.
Senator Moncion: You talked about education, early childhood and health, where there is a great need for immigration. A few years ago, we visited the Maritime provinces and we were told that, especially in the early childhood sector, the salaries paid to francophones were lower than those paid to anglophones.
To what extent has this situation been resolved when it comes to equity for francophones and anglophones in early childhood programs or even in teaching?
Ms. Groulx: I know that in recent years specific training was not required to work in the early childhood field in New Brunswick, but now specific training is required. If people have taken the training, the salaries between francophones and anglophones are in line. As far as early childhood is concerned, it’s not a problem.
As for teachers, it’s a matter of collective agreements and if I’m not mistaken, there are two different unions on the anglophone side and the francophone side. I would like to think that the conditions are similar, but I could be wrong.
Senator Moncion: In your province, how many francophone teachers are teaching on the anglophone side who could teach on the francophone side, which would lessen the problem on the francophone side, if you will?
Ms. Groulx: I think one of the challenges is that French immersion resides on the anglophone side of education, so there is a critical mass of francophone teachers who teach in the anglophone sector, but who teach in French, because French immersion is on the anglophone side. I don’t know the breakdown between French-speaking teachers and English-speaking teachers, but there are still a lot of French-speaking teachers, whether it’s in the French-speaking sector or the English-speaking sector.
Senator Moncion: This is a good avenue for a solution. If immersion was on the side of the French schools, we would have the opposite problem. Thank you very much.
Senator Mockler: I would like to briefly congratulate Ms. Groulx on her leadership in our province with her team.
I have two questions. The first is about the Provincial Nominee Program. Should it be reviewed to encourage more selection of immigrants to our province?
That being said, how many French-speaking immigrants have come to our province through the program in 2019, in 2020 — and I agree that during the pandemic it was quite a challenge — and in 2021?
Ms. Groulx: Thank you for the question, Senator Mockler.
I cannot tell you how many immigrants have settled in the province; however, I can tell you how many we have selected, because often there is a lag between the time of selection and the time of settlement. People who are already in New Brunswick, for example, an international student who is finishing his or her degree at the Université de Moncton or at the Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick (CCNB), when he or she applies, is already there, so it’s easy. On the other hand, a candidate selected from abroad will not come in the next two weeks; sometimes it can take up to a year for these immigrants to arrive. It’s hard for me to answer your question.
I don’t know the whole thing off the top of my head; had I known, I would have provided the table of arrivals in Canada produced by IRCC.
In 2021, 28% of the applicants selected were francophone, in 2020, 27% and in 2019, 24%. Does this automatically translate into people arriving on the territory in New Brunswick? Unfortunately, no.
Also, as soon as they have permanent residency, people can go anywhere they want in Canada. It’s permanent residence in Canada, not in New Brunswick. It happens, on occasion, that people land in Montreal and stay in Montreal.
Senator Mockler: If we want to get more specifics on this issue, would you be able to pass them on to us through the chair or the clerk and send us additional information on this issue?
Ms. Groulx: Yes, on arrivals, there is no problem, but I don’t have access at the moment.
Senator Mockler: What do you think of the actions taken so far by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to implement the Francophone Immigration Strategy?
What impact is this strategy having in our province?
Ms. Groulx: That’s an excellent question.
New Brunswick is different from other provinces in that a large proportion of our population is francophone. The federal government has invested heavily in francophone immigration, especially in the settlement of francophone newcomers. In New Brunswick, there are 16 points of service for newcomers, which is huge for a small province. They are, for the most part, funded by the federal government.
We strongly support the Francophone Immigration Strategy, to reach the 4% target for immigration in total, because we are able to invite a large percentage of candidates. You have to understand that our nominee program is very small compared to other provinces, which have been encouraging immigration for many years.
I don’t know if that answers your question.
The Chair: Ms. Groulx, we are going to conclude, but before we finish, I would like to ask you a question.
You have told us about some of the issues. New Brunswick is a bilingual province and it has an Official Languages Act. New Brunswick often serves as a reference point for other regions.
If you had a magic wand and were able to identify a few recommendations that would strengthen francophone immigration to New Brunswick and make a big difference in this province, what would they be?
Ms. Groulx: This is the killer question.
That’s a great question. Honestly, even if it never looks like enough from the outside, we have made great strides in francophone immigration.
When I think back to 2014, we had welcomed barely 100 francophone or francophile families. Now we’re up to 1,000 francophone families, thanks to the many partnerships we’ve created with post-secondary institutions and with certain employers. Not all employers recruit employees in English areas. There are still some employers who are doing a good job of recruiting francophones.
Despite the processing times and the inventory that seems to be more or less decreasing at the federal level, there is still a willingness on the part of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to be more flexible with respect to francophones. Every time we propose something innovative, we get federal approval. Honestly, I’m not sure that putting more money in will solve anything. I need employers to realize that in order to integrate well and keep their community vibrant in the long run, it is important to get immigrants who speak the language of the community.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Groulx, for your testimony and for the time you spent with us. It is very enlightening for our study. I also thank you for all the work you do in New Brunswick on behalf of immigration.
We are pleased to welcome, for our second panel, the Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick, Ms. Shirley MacLean. Welcome to the committee, Ms. McLean. Thank you very much for accepting our invitation.
I’ll recognize you, and then we’ll go into a question-and-answer period with the senators.
Shirley MacLean, Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick: Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, good evening.
I would like to acknowledge that the land on which I am meeting with you virtually is part of the unceded traditional territory of the Wolastoqiyik, Mi’kmaq and Peskotomuhkati. The Peace and Friendship Treaties that the Wolastoqiyik, Mi’kmaq and Peskotomuhkati jointly developed and signed with the British Crown during the 18th century apply to this territory.
I am pleased to join you virtually this evening to share my perspective on francophone immigration in a minority setting.
[English]
As many of you surely know, immigration matters are not specifically part of my mandate as Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick. However, one of my main responsibilities is to promote the advancement of French and English in the province. In that regard, it must be acknowledged that immigration plays a very important role in the vitality of both of New Brunswick’s official languages.
[Translation]
My immigration interventions are therefore part of this advocacy role.
In addition, it should be recalled that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that the French-speaking community and the English-speaking community of New Brunswick have equal status.
Therefore, I strongly believe that government immigration policies and programs must benefit both of our language communities equally.
I would first like to provide an overview of the New Brunswick context, to better frame my comments.
[English]
The New Brunswick Provincial Nominee Program is the main provincial immigration program, as you probably know already. It was established under an agreement with the Government of Canada. Under this program, New Brunswick can select businesspeople and skilled workers from around the world who wish to live in New Brunswick and contribute to the province’s economy.
[Translation]
Since 2017, the provincial government has also administered the Atlantic Immigration Program. This pilot program helps New Brunswick employers hire skilled foreign workers who want to immigrate to the province, as well as international students who want to stay in the region after graduating from post-secondary education.
In August 2019, the provincial government launched a new population growth strategy for the province, which includes the goal of ensuring a continuous annual increase of 2% in designated francophone applicants to reach the 33% target by 2024.
Every year in my annual report, I report on the provincial results for francophone immigration in New Brunswick. There has certainly been progress in recent years, but there is undoubtedly much work to be done and we must not rest on our laurels.
[English]
To give you a bit of an overview, the upper limit in the percentage of francophone nominees admitted to New Brunswick under the nominee program and the Atlantic Immigration Pilot Program was 19% in 2018, 24% in 2019, 27% in 2020 and 28% in 2021.
[Translation]
I’m a positive person, so I would be remiss if I did not recognize the efforts that the provincial and federal governments have made, but will we reach the 33% target by 2024? That remains to be seen.
Regardless, it raises an important question. Should we be satisfied with a target of 33%? After so many years of the share of francophone nominees being lower than the demographic weight of the francophone population, shouldn’t we adopt a remedial target instead? That would counter the decline of the demographic weight of New Brunswick’s francophone community.
It would definitely be possible if the provincial and federal governments honoured the equality of status that New Brunswick’s English-speaking and French-speaking communities are supposed to have under the Charter.
My federal counterpart, Commissioner Raymond Théberge, released a report last year on the 4.4% target for immigration to francophone minority communities outside Quebec. I read it carefully. It’s clear that setting a target that merely reflects the proportion of the francophone minority community is not enough. We must do more, and we must do it now. The latest census figures certainly illustrate that in New Brunswick’s case. Between 2016 and 2021, the demographic weight of people whose mother tongue was French dropped from 31.4% to 29.5%.
That is a decline of almost 2% in just five years.
Surely, a factor in the decline was the inconsistency between the level of francophone immigration and the demographic weight of New Brunswick’s population.
[English]
In 2021, my office published a report entitled The Language Situation in New Brunswick: Worrying Trends and Some Encouraging Signs. This report, which provides an in-depth analysis of the linguistic data in the 2016 census, was prepared by the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities on behalf of the office of the commissioner. It contains a conclusion about francophone immigration that struck me: The figures for retention of francophone immigrants are better than those for anglophone immigrants. It seems that francophone immigrants who settled in New Brunswick in the 2000s left the province to a lesser extent than anglophone or non-official language mother tongue immigrants.
[Translation]
That is undoubtedly another reason to urge governments to increase francophone immigration targets. We must act now. We must keep up our efforts, and we must take actions to address the ongoing deficiencies in recent years.
Thank you for inviting me today. I would be happy to answer any questions you have in the official language of your choice.
The Chair: Thank you for your opening remarks and your insight into francophone immigration challenges.
New Brunswick’s Official Languages Act is currently under review. The report on second-language learning was clear: despite its importance to New Brunswick, francophone immigration was not built into the province’s Official Languages Act. What are your thoughts on that? That’s my first question.
Ms. MacLean: Thank you for your question. That wasn’t one of our recommendations, because it’s not an area that falls within our jurisdiction. Immigration is a federal responsibility, even though the federal government does have agreements with the provinces. I would say that immigration hasn’t been a major focus so far, because it falls under the authority of the federal government. When we issued our recommendations, I had just taken office. If we were to do it today, I would probably address it somehow, at the very least, through a recommendation. Immigration really is an area of federal jurisdiction.
The Chair: Bill C-13, which is a review of the federal Official Languages Act, refers to a francophone immigration policy. As far as the equal status of both linguistic communities or a francophone immigration strategy is concerned, should the federal legislation take New Brunswick’s distinctive nature into account? I’m talking about efforts to make up lost ground or take remedial measures. Where do you stand on that?
Ms. MacLean: It’s important. The 2021 census figures just came out, and they show a decline in French and in the demographic weight of French-speaking communities. Conversely, they show an increase in English-speaking communities. We have a crisis of sorts on our hands.
We know that the provincial government has taken a stand, given that immigration plays a very important role in increasing New Brunswick’s population. However, when it comes to the Official Languages Act, I would say it’s important to remedy the inequality the francophone minority community is currently facing and to increase the level of francophone immigration.
It has to come from the provincial government. The provincial government has to sign agreements and push for a higher target. If the federal act could include something like that, I would certainly support it.
The Chair: Thank you, commissioner.
Senator Moncion: The Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages noted the importance of ensuring that immigration decisions take New Brunswick’s linguistic balance into account. If New Brunswick’s Official Languages Act is reformed, do you think it should include amendments to support the goal of maintaining New Brunswick’s linguistic balance? Bill C-13, for instance, stipulates that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration must adopt a policy on francophone immigration.
Ms. MacLean: For years, we have been pushing the provincial government to work towards bringing the target up. If the Official Languages Act — a quasi-constitutional act, might I add — provided for such a policy, it would obviously result in more francophone immigration.
Progress has been made, but at the end of the day, the decisions are up to the government. While the government might decide to raise the targets, it doesn’t have any regulatory obligation in that regard.
Senator Moncion: Do you have a sense of what New Brunswick’s immigration needs are?
Ms. MacLean: Yes, because I work in immigration.
Senator Moncion: Do you know how many vacant positions the province has?
Ms. MacLean: I don’t know that number. We can take in more immigrants, but there are practical challenges around providing newcomers with the supports they need — housing, for one. On top of that, measures have to be in place so that professionals can practise in their fields. We have a few measures.
New Brunswick has a support program for nurses, so they can complete their mandatory training and obtain their licences to practise. The province has an expedited path to licensing for nurses from France, and something similar for Quebec. Some immigrants come here thinking that they will get a job working in a French-speaking setting, but sometimes, they are surprised. It’s important to support them.
Senator Moncion: Immigration is an area of shared jurisdiction under section 95 of the Constitution Act, 1867. The provision expressly states that federal legislation takes precedence in the event of a conflict.
What impact could that have provincially?
Ms. MacLean: Are you referring to the authority available to the federal government?
Senator Moncion: No, the federal government has the authority. What is the impact in New Brunswick in terms of the cases referred to you by the federal government? I’m talking about potential immigrants to the province.
Ms. MacLean: As I mentioned, we have programs to help manage immigrants’ files, including pilot projects that were introduced in 2019. The government is doing a lot of work on the ground to put programs in place, to recruit people and to keep them. It’s working with prospective employers. I think the provinces have the capacity to administer the current federal-provincial agreements, themselves.
Senator Moncion: All right. Thank you, Ms. MacLean.
Senator Mégie: Good afternoon, commissioner.
My question is very short. I heard you say that the data from the second-last census showed a retention rate for francophones that was higher than the retention rate for anglophones. Did I hear you correctly that the retention rate among francophones was higher than among anglophones and that now the opposite is true?
Do you have a sense of what may have caused the situation to turn?
Ms. MacLean: Do you mean in 2021?
Senator Mégie: Yes.
Ms. MacLean: It’s hard to say. As far as working with immigrants is concerned, a community needs to be in place. It’s important to create the conditions that make people want to stay and that give them access to the support they need. We don’t know why things went the other way. The COVID-19 pandemic had major repercussions on immigration in 2021. I imagine the challenges were such that we couldn’t keep those people in the country. Jobs and housing have to be available, and New Brunswick has a big problem on both of those fronts. I, myself, recently saw a situation where an immigrant family wanted to move. We found them an apartment, but they weren’t allowed to go see it. The housing shortage here, in Fredericton, is so bad that when someone finds an apartment, they can’t even go look at it. They have to take it right away or they lose it.
A family that’s new to the country needs resources; it needs help from a community. It needs access to a lot of supports, so that capacity may be lacking. With the new Centre for Innovation in Francophone Immigration in Dieppe, we are hoping that more supports and resources will be available to immigrants when they come to New Brunswick.
Senator Mégie: Thank you.
Has the Welcoming Francophone Communities initiative worked? Is it more or less successful in New Brunswick?
Ms. MacLean: You’re talking about francophone immigrants. I would say the initiative is working well. Immigrants have the resources they need. Sometimes it’s done a bit haphazardly, because centres are the ones providing the support to immigrants in each city and region. They do what they can. If they are in a French-speaking area, the likelihood of immigrants staying in the community depends on their being able to speak the language, to have their kids go to school and to participate culturally.
Some multicultural centres are bilingual. In fact, not everyone at the multicultural centre in Fredericton, the capital city of a bilingual province, is bilingual. Fredericton isn’t a French-speaking city. An immigrant who comes to Fredericton because it’s in a bilingual province will find out that it’s not really a French-speaking city, even if it does have two French-language schools. It’s a bilingual community, but not a francophone community. Once people realize that, some decide to go elsewhere, to find a French-speaking community. It also depends on where you are in Moncton. The higher the approval rate, the more French-speaking the area.
Senator Mégie: Thank you very much.
Senator Clement: Good evening, Ms. MacLean. Thank you for your remarks.
You said you work directly with immigrants. Is it normal for the commissioner to work directly with immigrants? Why do you do that type of volunteer work?
Ms. MacLean: I volunteered when Canada welcomed the Syrian refugees. We tried to grow the group of immigrants that came here, to Fredericton, and elsewhere.
Once you start doing volunteer work within the system, you see how wonderful it is. It’s really rewarding at the end of the day. We feel like we are the ones who are getting something out of it. Once you see the system and you know how it works, you can’t not help these people. We try to help them by providing documentation. In my former life, I was a lawyer, so I can help provide them with the documents they require.
Senator Clement: It’s more fun to do that than to be a lawyer.
Ms. MacLean: Exactly.
The Chair: You’re speaking to a lawyer, Ms. MacLean.
Senator Clement: Thank you, Ms. MacLean, for answering that question. This work brings increases the depth of your expertise.
In terms of municipalities, I’m always interested in the role cities play in immigration. We always talk about the provinces and the federal government.
As part of the pilot project, are you aware of any formal role that the City of Fredericton or the City of Moncton would have played in this?
Ms. MacLean: The mayors are interested in this issue and are aware of what is going on. In terms of the funding, I’m not really aware of it, but I don’t think there is any funding on the municipal side. I know that they are doing everything they can to ensure that initiatives are put in place, if any are lacking. You can always approach the city to see if there are things that can be done.
I’ve had discussions with the mayors about language obligations under the New Brunswick Official Languages Act. Once the lockdown ended, I toured the province to conduct consultations. The language obligations came out of those consultations. The former mayor of Campbellton, or rather Bathurst, also did that in her former position. She is very involved in local immigration in Bathurst. She still works with immigrants. There are no set programs. Programs are created according to the capacity of cities. Cities have struggled with homelessness. They’re under a lot of pressure. They have also worked with multicultural centres to provide support to immigrants.
Senator Clement: Thank you.
Senator Gagné: Good afternoon, Ms. MacLean. I’m delighted to welcome you.
For all intents and purposes, your Official Languages Act is currently undergoing a review process. Bill C-13 is still in the House of Commons. We will receive it very soon, I hope. It contains a section on a francophone immigration policy. Immigration is a shared responsibility.
Would it be advantageous for the federal government and the province to have some kind of joint policy on francophone immigration? Would this benefit both Canadians and New Brunswickers?
Ms. MacLean: Without a doubt. By promoting the reality that exists in our bilingual province of New Brunswick and with a joint policy, we could increase the resources devoted to immigration.
As I said, the programs that exist right now in Atlantic Canada are working. However, things would be better with more resources. If we had an agreement or a legal situation that would have more obligations for the provincial government, the resources would follow. Obviously, this would benefit Canadians and New Brunswickers, because we need immigrants, and we need francophone immigrants. The best way to keep francophones in Canada is to bring them into a francophone environment.
Senator Gagné: I’m asking because there was a recommendation not to include anything related to francophone immigration in New Brunswick’s Official Languages Act.
Would the fact that it’s a shared responsibility and that there is a similarity between the two strengthen New Brunswick’s position if it can have something?
Ms. MacLean: The more we get, the better it will be. The more obligations and links between the two, the better it will be for New Brunswick.
Senator Gagné: Okay. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Mockler: Thank you very much for accepting our invitation. I certainly salute your dedication to your job.
Ms. MacLean: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Mockler: I remember very well when the government of the day created the position of Commissioner of Official Languages in 2002.
[English]
As you said at the beginning, Ms. MacLean, it was to promote French and English in all areas of New Brunswick.
[Translation]
The first commissioner, Michel Carrier, did a tremendous and flawless job of bringing people together. He managed to unite the Acadians and even the Brayons, the Madawaska Republicans, and also anglophones, francophones and First Nations in the context of the office’s mandate established in 2002.
Since your appointment, Ms. MacLean, your path has led me to believe that you, like Mr. Carrier, are a unifying force who is known for bringing people together.
In the post-pandemic context, while there are still challenges, how do you see your commitment and role over the next few years to improve the goal? I am very concerned that the 2021 census data show a decline in the demographic weight of francophones in New Brunswick. The figure dropped from 33.1% in 2001 to 30% in 2021.
In your commitment, what tools do you intend to use to assure the people of Acadia that demographic weight is important?
Ms. MacLean: Thank you for your comments. I think your question is very important.
As you said, it’s important to build bridges, and there’s still much to do.
As you know, I have a dual mandate. One is to investigate complaints that are filed to ensure that language obligations are met under the Official Languages Act. My second mandate is to promote it. As you said, Michel Carrier did a lot of promotion. I am the first anglophone to be appointed commissioner. At first, we thought it was an opportunity to build a bridge between anglophones, francophones, Acadians and Brayons. Then COVID hit, and we did our best. I did as much promotion as I could.
For the future, there is a problem in New Brunswick for francophones because, according to the data, as you said, we are heading towards assimilation. The opportunities are there, and something needs to be done.
If I may, I will do as much promotion as possible. I won’t just promote the two linguistic communities, but there is a problem for francophones in New Brunswick. We’re seeing a decline in the use of French in francophone households. A survey was conducted last year in New Brunswick, and it was well promoted, resulting in an 81% approval rate for official languages legislation and bilingualism. The data showed that 99% of people whose first language is English speak English at home, obviously. For those whose first language is French, only 76% speak French at home, while 17% speak English, and 7% speak another language.
I think it’s not just a matter of promoting the equality of the two linguistic communities. We must also encourage francophones to maintain their pride and ensure the vitality of the language by using French at home. The promotional aspect is very important. Yes, I play a unifying role and that aspect is all the more important, given the context and what we are hearing. I will continue to do as much promotion as possible.
Senator Mockler: Mr. Chair, with the indulgence of the other senators —
Ms. MacLean: I can’t hear you anymore.
[Technical difficulties]
The Chair: Ms. MacLean can’t hear us anymore. We’re having a sound problem.
We’re going to suspend for a moment while we sort out our problem. We’ll wrap up with the commissioner and thank her, and then we’ll move on to the next panel.
We’re going to welcome our third panel of the meeting, but I would first like to thank the Commissioner of Official Languages of New Brunswick, Shirley MacLean, for her testimony and her answers to our questions.
Despite the technical difficulties, we still understood the gist of your remarks. The answers you provided to our questions will help us draft our report on our study on francophone immigration.
Colleagues, we now welcome Chedly Belkhodja, a full Professor at the School of Community Public Affairs and Director of the Centre for Policy and Immigration Studies at Concordia University.
Mr. Belkhodja, thank you very much for accepting our invitation and being with us this evening.
[Technical difficulties]
It seems he can’t hear me. We’ll suspend the meeting again and try to resolve our technical difficulties. Thank you for your patience, colleagues, and thank you to the witnesses for their patience.
(The committee continued in camera.)