THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 6, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 9:03 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, everyone. My name is Fabian Manning and I’m a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador. I have the pleasure to chair this meeting.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Should any technical issues arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or the clerk and we will work to resolve the issue.
I would like to take a few moments and ask my colleagues to introduce themselves, beginning on my immediate left.
Senator Busson: I’m Bev Busson from British Columbia.
Senator Cordy: I’m Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia.
Senator Ataullahjan: I’m Salma Ataullahjan from Ontario.
Senator Ravalia: Good morning and welcome. I’m Mohamed Ravalia from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Ringuette: I’m Pierrette Ringuette from New Brunswick.
Senator Francis: Good morning. Brian Francis from P.E.I.
Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn from New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you, senators.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries. Today, under this mandate, the committee will be hearing from officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO. I wish to thank our officials for joining us this morning as we kick off our study.
I would like to introduce our guests. With us this morning is Adam Burns, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, and Bernard Vigneault, Director General, Ecosystem Sciences Directorate, Ecosystems and Oceans Science. I also wish to welcome those joining by video conference: Rebecca Reid, Regional Director General, Pacific Region; William McGillivray, Regional Director General, Newfoundland and Labrador Region; and Adwaite Tiwary, Director, Trade and Market Policy.
On behalf of the members of our committee, I thank you for being here today in person and virtually. I understand Mr. Burns has some opening remarks. That will be followed by questions from the senators. Mr. Burns, you now have the floor.
Adam Burns, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable senators. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee today on behalf of the department on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.
[Translation]
Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages fisheries with the goal of keeping stocks healthy, protecting biodiversity and fisheries habitats, and ensuring our fisheries remain productive.
The minister is committed to supporting sustainable, stable and prosperous fisheries through the use of science and evidence-based decision making.
[English]
The harvest of seals supports Canada’s Indigenous, rural and coastal communities as it is an important economic and cultural activity in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and the Arctic. The government is committed to a sustainable, humane and well-regulated hunt. It provides important part-time seasonal labour in a number of Canada’s remote, coastal and northern communities. Also, Canadian seal harvesters, processors, artisans and Inuit produce some of the finest products in the world. The value of these products should be measured not only in terms of dollars for local economies, but also for their significance to culture and tradition.
[Translation]
The department is aware of the concerns from commercial fish harvesters about the impact of the seals on fish stocks, and on everyone who relies on these waters for their livelihood.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada is continuously improving its understanding of seal populations and potential impacts on fish stocks through surveys and targeted research projects, such as diet studies and studies on reproduction.
[English]
The department bases its management decisions using the precautionary approach. This utilizes the best available information, including peer-reviewed science and Indigenous knowledge. The management of seals in Atlantic Canada is not intended to be used as a tool to reduce seal populations, but to manage sustainably. The lack of market opportunities for seal products, however, does challenge management efforts as removals remain well below exploitable levels.
We’re committed to exploring market development opportunities for Canadian seal products while respecting the latest science advice and ensuring that seal harvest is sustainable and humane. That’s why we’re hosting the Seal Summit next month in Newfoundland.
There are currently no commercial fisheries for seals on the West Coast. Any proposals for a potential commercial pinniped fishery are assessed under the New Emerging Fisheries Policy. In recent years, DFO has received proposals for a commercial seal fishery with the objective to reduce population levels. All proposals are currently being assessed under that policy.
As a proponent-driven process, additional information is required to ensure the objective of such a hunt is the landing and use of the pelt or carcass, as required by the Marine Mammal Regulations.
[Translation]
The scientists at DFO are continuing to conduct research to better understand the impacts of seal predation on commercial fish stocks.
The department is not looking at a seal population control program at this time.
[English]
One area that the department is working to advance is an ecosystem approach to fisheries management, where factors beyond fisheries that contribute to mortality are better integrated into the science advice that is generated for stocks we manage.
DFO is committed to managing the seal harvest using the best available information to ensure management decisions are founded in science and evidence-based. Fisheries and Oceans Canada has a robust science program and we are continuously improving our understanding of seal populations and potential impacts on fish stocks. The department will continue to advance its scientific research on seals — guided by the recommendations from the task team — and we will look at ways to further collaborate with industry in science activities.
We’d be happy to take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you for your opening remarks, Mr. Burns. We will start with our deputy chair.
Senator Busson: Thank you, Mr. Burns.
I’m from British Columbia, and I’m particularly interested in fisheries on the West Coast, although we’re doing a national study. You mentioned there is no commercial fishery of seals on the West Coast. I was reading in some of the literature that there had been a commercial fishery at one time, and also that there had been an allowance under regulations to use lethal force against seals that were interfering with aquaculture. That changed in 2020.
Could you tell me what precipitated that change in DFO’s approach to the control of seals vis-à-vis aquaculture?
Mr. Burns: I can start and then I will pass it to my colleague Rebecca Reid, who has joined us this morning bright and early from Vancouver.
Thank you, senator, for the question.
The lethal deterrence of seals in fisheries is not consistent with export requirements to the United States under their Marine Mammal Protection Act. Therefore, DFO implemented a policy change whereby the minister is not issuing authorizations for lethal deterrence in order to enable continued market access for those products.
I don’t know if Rebecca wants to say anything else.
Rebecca Reid, Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: No, that covers it, thank you.
Senator Busson: Can I have a quick follow-up?
The Chair: Go ahead.
Senator Busson: My understanding around the use of lethal force vis-à-vis the seal population was not around export, but to control that population and its detrimental effect on aquaculture and fisheries, generally. In my mind, it’s not tied to export. Am I right that that’s a mistaken assumption?
Mr. Burns: My understanding of your question is what we would refer to as a “nuisance seal,” a seal that is actually interfering with the aquaculture operation. It isn’t permissible under U.S. import requirements for lethal force to be used for those purposes. In order to obtain what the U.S. legislation refers to as comparability finding, which is the mechanism by which that import continues to be permissible, we need to demonstrate that we are not authorizing lethal deterrents.
Senator Busson: That’s the import of fish not that of seals?
Mr. Burns: Correct. We cannot import any seals.
Senator Busson: That’s just a clarification.
Mr. Burns: Yes, that’s right.
Senator Busson: Thank you.
Senator Francis: This is for whomever would like to answer.
Does the department collect data and publish yearly statistics on how many seals and which species are harvested for food, social and ceremonial purposes in Canada? If so, how is this data collected, and, if it’s available, is the data shared with Indigenous communities and the public?
Mr. Burns: I will attempt to answer that question. To my knowledge, we do not collect information on food, social and ceremonial removals. But I will commit to double-checking that information. I don’t have those statistics, and I don’t believe that we collect them.
Senator Francis: Do you think that would be important going forward?
Mr. Burns: I believe that the level of removals is fairly low. From a scientific perspective, it might not be something that would alter the scientific assessment. I don’t know.
Do you want to speak to that, Mr. Vigneault?
Bernard Vigneault, Director General, Ecosystem Sciences Directorate, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: I concur. The removal would be very low compared to our level that we estimate would have an impact on the populations.
Senator Francis: Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, witnesses.
I’m from Newfoundland and Labrador. I actually live in a community that has historically been very dependent upon seal fishing. In talking to my fishermen friends who go out, they have video recordings of hundreds of thousands of seals just as they exit the harbour to procure their catch, be it crab, small cod fishery or shrimp.
Despite the research you’re doing, the numbers they are viewing far exceed whatever research data we’re getting back.
I was wondering whether you might have some comparative information from countries like Iceland and Norway, where the ability to control their seal populations would appear to be much more defined — they’ve done a much better job than Canada has.
Fishermen in my community are beginning to feel that they’re being totally neglected by the science. It’s difficult for them to appreciate the science when they see what they see when they’re out there. They’re now competing with these large numbers of seals consuming huge quantities of seafood and shellfish.
Are we collaborating or working with international countries facing a similar dilemma? If so, what are the results of that? If not, should we consider doing so?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you for the question.
Yes, the population of seals — in general and also offshore in Newfoundland — have increased. They basically have recovered from historic lows and are back to close to what we assume were their pre-hunting period. It’s especially true for harp seals. Our estimate is 6.7 million right now. That number was stable until 2015, but it has increased in recent years. That is an exception compared to other seal and sea lion stocks. In all other cases, we are documenting a stabilization of the population and a reduced rate of growth of the population for grey seals.
Having such a large number of seals in ecosystems obviously contributes to the interaction with the different prey and competition with other predators.
There is quite a consensus and — there is always uncertainty, but very little uncertainty on the population trajectory where there is much more science needed to quantify that into an ecosystem approach, as it is very challenging. The ecosystems in the North Atlantic, for example, are very complex. It’s not just one prey-predator relationship. There are multiple relationships that co-occur with environmental changes, such as climate change.
That’s where the core of the science gap is — increasing our level of information in terms of where the seals are throughout the entire year and what they’re preying on in terms of species with the annual and seasonal variability. There is huge uncertainty in all those estimates. When you try to bring a number, that’s very difficult actually.
Just to put that in context, there are other predators for commercial fish in the environment, including other fish species — whales — and seabirds. They all have a large influence if you look at their massive potential consumption. It’s not just seals that are impacting the environment.
It’s an active area of research. We collaborate with international scientists, mainly from northern Europe, such as Norway. There is a lot of ongoing collaboration between our countries on harp seal science, in particular.
We cannot fully extrapolate everything from the East Atlantic to the West Atlantic because the ecosystems have evolved differently. There is still science being done to see if the change in trajectory for the population is due to any management, harvesting or just the environmental factors that are at play.
Senator Ravalia: In terms of your research, how much collaboration is done with local people on the ground? Just recently, I heard of seals migrating inland on waterways as much as 150 miles from the coast, which is something no one has ever seen in the past.
I think local individuals realize that there is a dramatic change in the marine ecology given the warming of the water, the alterations in the phytoplankton and the smaller species like the capelin and herring and the movement of whales. In speaking to very experienced fishermen who have been doing this for years — and this is talking to seniors in my community who are in their 80s — they genuinely sense that there is something going on with the seal population that is very disconcerting.
When you’re actually doing your science on the ground, is there much collaboration with locals who have extensive knowledge about altering patterns within the ecosystem?
Mr. Vigneault: Yes, there are some levels of collaboration. For example, the sampling that we do for seal stomach content is done in collaboration with our harvesters. However, that is a very limited extent. That was one of the recommendations from the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team — to increase the scope of collaboration with the industry to gather actual science data on the seal population. That’s something that we agree and are working toward.
Because the samples come basically from the commercial harvest, they’re limited in terms of area and time of the year. We really need to look at opportunities to collaborate with locals to get additional samples so that the collective data we gather is representative of the coastal environment, the offshore and the different periods of the year. Those discussions are ongoing.
The Chair: Before I go to Senator Cordy, I wanted to follow up on Senator Ravalia’s questions. Aerial surveys, I believe, are the way that the department attempts to count what seals are off the coast. How often are those conducted, what period of time and how does that process work?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question. Yes, that is an important consideration.
We do the assessments for the population of priority seals on a five-year basis because they’re slow growing, and also because of the logistical constraints associated with the assessment work. Just to give you a sense, that work would frequently occur throughout several subsequent years so that we can gather the amount of new data that is required for the assessment.
We have just released, for example, an updated population assessment for the grey seal in 2022. I was referring to a lower rate of growth, and that’s what we found in the recent assessment. In recent years, the population is stabilizing. We are at 366,000 individuals, which is close to the previous estimates. This is done mostly by counting pups, as you allude to, and then calculating with the modelling approach — considering different variables — how much the adult population should be to support the pups who are measured during the assessment. We get the assessment of the population every five years.
We have started doing the harp seal. It will be ready for publication in two years. We have also invested efforts into doing an assessment of a broader range of seal species. For example, we just completed the field work for the first-ever harbour seal survey in the Atlantic. That was long endeavour over several years. Just to give you a sense of the effort, it will take us a year to look at the aerial photography and do the data on this. We hope to be able to publish this new assessment in 2023.
The Chair: Thank you. You mentioned the grey seal assessment, and I believe you said 2022. Would it be possible to forward that to our analysts?
Mr. Vigneault: Absolutely.
The Chair: And maybe the latest assessments of all the different seals. I realize some may be a couple of years old or more, but whatever the latest assessments are that you have on file. If we could have those, we would appreciate it.
Mr. Vigneault: Absolutely.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for being here. I’m also an Atlantic Canadian, so for me, this is a very important study to have. Certainly, the anti-seal proponents have had a lot of success, money and high-profile people taking pictures of seals on the ice flows. Even misinformation — they were taking pictures of seal pups, which are illegal to hunt, but it didn’t matter. They were holding them, which means the mother will abandon them because they’ve been held. They are not necessarily from the East Coast of Canada, but they’ve certainly provided a lot of funding and promotion of the anti-seal industry. I don’t think many of them even have an understanding — maybe I shouldn’t be saying this — of the seal hunt in Atlantic Canada.
Senator Ravalia’s comments about what the fishers are seeing really struck me as being very important because I’ve seen videos of the seal populations and I was stunned to see the size of these populations and the amount of fish that they would consume. Being from Cape Breton, it reminded me of the canaries in the coal mines. The people on the ground know what is happening before the scientific community is as aware of it. That concerns me.
You spoke about the continuing scientific study of seals on the fish population because that’s what we’re actually studying — the effect on the fish populations. I know you’re going to send information on the sizes of the seal population, but could you also send us — unless you already know it — the effect of the seals on the fish population according to the studies that are being done? If you don’t have that information, could you send that to the committee?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you for the question. I can certainly provide some comments on the impact on the fish population.
There is work that has been happening for several years, and it’s ongoing. As we mentioned, the ecosystems are evolving. To date, we have found several lines of evidence that point to an impact of the grey seal population in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence on groundfish. That was first published about 10 years ago, but we have a more recent study that confirmed that. For the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence area, there is definitive evidence that the grey seals are impacting the recovery of groundfish stock. They’re not the only factor, but they have a significant factor.
There is abundant work that was done more broadly to look at this issue. I mentioned earlier the complexity of it and all the natural and annual variability. To date, in the work that we’ve done when we’ve tried to predict the trajectory of the groundfish populations in other areas of the Atlantic, like Newfoundland, we do not see a major impact of the seal population. Basically, when we try to explain the model, the observations that we see every year when we do the assessment of the groundfish, there are other factors that have a much greater influence on the variation of the groundfish than the seal population themselves, like the availability of prey for them, for example, capelin and cod.
There is still, as I mentioned, ongoing work. We are gathering samples from the groundfish survey from the study on marine mammals. I also alluded to the different study that looked at the question of consumption, which is very wide. We need to know where the seals are throughout the year. We need to know what they’re eating in terms of species and quantities. There are different tools we apply — the genomics tool, looking at the chemistry of the stomach content or the chemistry of the species. There is a wide range of techniques that we need to use, and that is ongoing.
The other thing is that because there is so much net variability, this needs to be looked at on a multi-year basis. You cannot do one study with a set of examples and extrapolate for the Atlantic.
Right now, we’re analyzing sets of samples that were half collected. When those analyses are complete, we hope that we will be able to integrate that into updated information on the diet that will feed into the fish stock assessment. My colleague mentioned the ecosystem approach for managing fish stocks. We’ll be able to implement that in a quantitive way when we provide advice on the health of the groundfish population.
Senator Cordy: That’s helpful. If you could send me that data, that would also be helpful. I understand that it’s multi-year, and you did a great job explaining all that. But if we could have the latest data, even if it is a few years old, that would be helpful.
Senator Ataullahjan: My question is similar to Senator Ravalia’s and Senator Cordy’s. Does DFO believe that the seal populations are negatively impacting ecosystems in some regions? If so, can you tell us in which regions and what species?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you for the question. It is difficult to answer directly because the negative impact could be defined differently from different perspectives. But as I mentioned earlier, if you are thinking in terms of the impacts on the commercial groundfish, we continue to confirm that in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence area, the grey seals are having a significant impact. They are basically impeding the recovery of those groundfish stocks, including Atlantic cod.
In other areas, they are part of the ecosystem as are other predators. They are eating prey throughout the ecosystem. But in terms of commercial fish stocks, we have yet to demonstrate a clear, definitive impact that would be of greater scope than other environmental factors like food for the groundfish, as I mentioned.
Senator Ataullahjan: At the risk of sounding ignorant — I am from Toronto. We are concerned about the Great Lakes. So can you just explain to me that you do know what the impact is on commercial fishing?
Mr. Vigneault: What we know is that in some areas of Atlantic Canada, like the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, we can clearly demonstrate a negative impact on commercial fish stocks. In other areas, we document the recovery of the seal population to historical levels. We are doing research on their interactions with the other components of the ecosystem. Primarily, they prey on commercial fish species, but we don’t see direct evidence as strong as in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence.
The levels are much higher than in the 1970s, as observed by harvesters and everyone, but they’re basically going back to their historical levels. Therefore, yes, there are more seals and there are other marine mammals like whales that are recovering and having an impact on the balance of things in the ecosystem. Overall, in terms of commercial fish stocks, the clearly documented impact is in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence.
Earlier, I mentioned the research effort we are doing in the Atlantic. We are also doing research efforts on the Pacific coast, especially in the Salish Sea area, to look at the impact on salmon in particular. It’s the same idea in that it is really complex. We cannot resolve this with one study. We need to integrate multiple studies and multiple methods so that we have a better sense of what the actual, quantifiable impact is on stocks — in this case, the Pacific salmon. Thank you.
The Chair: I want to follow up on a question by Senator Ataullahjan. I heard and understand that there are more predators in the ocean than seals. If I heard you correctly this morning, your last estimate is about 7.6 million harp seals. I realize that every couple of hundred thousand seals equals about half a whale.
Do you have any studies or information in regards to the effect that whales have versus seals? Because if you are looking at numbers of seals being in the millions, I would think that seals have to be the mammals doing the most damage. I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m looking at the numbers here. I realize it is complex, but are there any studies that give any idea on the effect the whales are having versus the effect the seals are having?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you for the question. Yes, indeed, it is really complex. The best we can do right now is to have an order of magnitude — a rough estimate. We did that kind of exercise for Newfoundland, but we are doing that in other areas to inform our fish stock assessment. When we did the exercise in Newfoundland, it was the same kind of order of magnitude. Right now, the estimated potential impact from consumption was similar for seals as for other predators like sea birds and so on. If I recall, predatory fish, which is a huge component of the predation on commercial stock, is also very significant. But it is not seals and then everything else. It is similar to the other components of the environment.
The Chair: To follow up on Senator Cordy’s question, we would like any information that you have on studies conducted in the past few years in relation to not only seals but other mammals that are detrimental to the fish stocks. That is the focus of our study. We would just like to learn from the information you may have at the department. We could learn more about other predators in the ocean, too. We appreciate anything you can send to our analysts on that.
Senator Quinn: Thank you to the witnesses for appearing, in particular our colleague out on the West Coast. It is an early day for you, so we really appreciate you being here.
This is really interesting, and so it causes me to reflect a little bit. As a younger fellow, I had the pleasure of sailing around the coast of Newfoundland for two and a half years on a little oil tanker, going in and out of pretty much every community on the south and east coasts. Coming back to the concept of consultation and whatnot, back then, the fishermen were concerned about the growing number of seals. It wasn’t as much in the news then as it is today perhaps.
At that time, the seal hunt was also taking place. I recall some of the old guys talking about how that hunt was helping to control and maintain the stocks. You’re absolutely right, the effects of climate change have to be quite significant with respect to new species coming into the area and whatnot. But I’m really trying to grasp the effect of 7.5 million predators who eat different things — crustaceans, but mainly fish, I would think. Is there an estimate of what a harp seal would eat in a day? Would they eat a pound, 10 pounds, 100 pounds?
Mr. Vigneault: Yes, there is such an estimate. We are looking at the energy requirement of the seal and how much we find when we actually sample the stomach. It is a significant number. In terms of mass, especially with their large numbers, they are eating lots of different fish and species. We think they are opportunistic feeders, so there is a full range of other species that they would prey on.
Having said that, in terms of evaluating the impact on the ecosystem, it is not just the mass of fish consumed. It is basically how the prey relationship overall and all other factors are contributing. Capelin, for example, is a tiny fish. It is not many grams, but it is fundamentally important for the entire ecosystem, including cod and harp seal.
Senator Quinn: A rough ballpark figure — How much would they eat? How much mass would an average seal consume on an average day?
Mr. Vigneault: If I recall correctly, it is in the order of thousands of tonnes per year, but that’s part of the ongoing study. The actual figures will be part of the updated study that we will share with the committee.
Senator Quinn: Could you forward any information you have regarding that consumption to our committee?
Mr. Vigneault: Yes.
Senator Quinn: Coming back to the consultation, on the West Coast, there is the ability of ceremonial food for our First Nations colleagues. Is there consultation with First Nations at all on the West Coast so we have an understanding of their perspective on the effect of seals? I am a big believer in elders and in their traditional knowledge. It can help teach us the lessons they have learned over thousands of years. Sometimes that is as strong as any scientific work that we’re ever going to do.
Is there a consultation specifically with First Nations with respect to seals and their effect on the fishery on the West Coast?
Mr. Burns: I will turn to my colleague from B.C., but I can say in a more general sense that, absolutely, Indigenous knowledge is now actually even included in the Fisheries Act in terms of one of the considerations that the minister can take into account in fisheries management decisions. So, 100% yes. I will turn to my colleague Ms. Reid for some specifics.
Ms. Reid: We do consult with First Nations regarding harvest for food, social and ceremonial purposes. That is part of our regular conversations. In addition, we have been working with some First Nations on certain scientific studies. They have been involved, for example, in a couple of symposia and in diet studies related to what seals are eating. In that way, we are looking for various opportunities to incorporate local and Indigenous knowledge into the work that we are doing. There are a number of examples of how that’s taking place on the West Coast.
Senator Quinn: Coming back to statistics, you mentioned that in 2015 there was a boom, but today the population is starting to stabilize. That made me think of the old story of the rabbits and the foxes — more rabbits, more foxes; fewer rabbits, fewer foxes.
How are the fish stocks doing on the East Coast, in particular? Are they growing? There’s an increase in the seal populations where we are. It’s starting to stabilize, but are the stocks starting to decline? Food source is everything to all of us. Do you have information with respect to that cycle of fish stocks and seal populations?
When I was in Fisheries and Oceans Canada, I recall 2.5 million was the number. I was quite surprised. That was 40 years ago. When we say 7.6 million now, I find that dramatic in comparison to the work that was being done back when I was in that environment. Is there information on that cyclical food source versus mammal growth, in particular, seals?
Mr. Vigneault: As I mentioned earlier, except in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, we haven’t demonstrated a link between the growth of the seal population and the fish stocks themselves. Having said that, different stocks are doing different things. There are many healthy stocks growing across the Atlantic provinces, for example, lobster. It is not ambiguous.
Where we have the most challenge in recovery in general is, again, the groundfish species that, despite reduction in fishing, are still lacking the full expected recovery. There are a number of factors. So yes, in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, it could be, in part, seals. Elsewhere, it could be —
Senator Quinn: — Zeroing in, how is the cod stock doing? Could you give us any information that you have on that cyclical relationship? How are the cod doing?
Mr. Vigneault: The cod stock is gradually recovering. For the stock in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence and in the Maritimes region, there’s very limited recovery. For the stock more offshore in the Newfoundland area, there has been some recovery. However, depending on the area, it’s certainly limited. They are not back to healthy levels just yet.
The Chair: Is there any effort to find markets elsewhere? We know we are not permitted to export any seal products into the United States, but there has been some talk over the last couple of years about possible markets in China. Is there any organized effort by the department to look at possible markets for seal products? I’m not just talking fur, I’m talking about seal products. If so, is there any information that you can pass on to the committee about that?
Mr. Burns: I will start and then pass the question on to my colleague, who is the director of trade market access.
Regarding the social licence around the seal harvest, obviously that’s a fundamental issue related to Senator Cordy’s comments earlier and related to folks who like to use the seal harvest as a means to raise money for their favourite organizations. In recent years, we have implemented a strong regime around the professionalization of seal harvesters requiring that they take training on humane harvest so that we can move beyond and correct that incorrect perception of an inhumane harvest and tell the story of how the seal harvest is indeed very humane. That’s an important piece that we have put in place.
Incorrect information continues to be passed around and it’s important to continue to state the truth around those factors, for example, the fact that immature animals are not able to be hunted. Those are important steps that we’ve put in place in recent years to help build on that social licence.
In terms of the investments that have been made around market development, I will now turn to my colleague.
Adwaite Tiwary, Director, Trade and Market Policy, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Thank you for that question. As my colleague just mentioned, it has been a challenge about the brand perception across the globe on seal products. That said, there are support programs available from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. For example, seal products are eligible to receive funding under the Canadian Fish and Seafood Opportunities Fund and both the Atlantic Fisheries Fund and the Quebec Fisheries Fund.
As another example, in 2021, through the Canadian Fish and Seafood Opportunities Fund, we provided $2.6 million in funding between the Fur Institute of Canada and the Seals and Sealing Network to strengthen the sector and to improve market conditions for Canadian seal products.
The biggest markets remain in Asia. That would be Japan, Hong Kong and Vietnam.
The Chair: Sorry, I have to interrupt again. The interpreters are having a problem hearing you in order to interpret it.
Sébastien Payet, Acting Clerk of the Committee: The only solution is that one of your colleagues, Mr. Tiwary, could answer for you because we have a problem with your sound right now. Apparently, the sound is coming from your computer. I am very sorry.
If you could submit a written answer by email to the committee, that would be perfect. Thank you.
The Chair: Sorry about that. We appreciate your attempts to provide an answer, and we look forward to your email response to our question. Thank you very much.
Senator Ringuette: This is a very interesting conversation.
First, Mr. Vigneault, you said that the average yearly consumption is 1,000. Was this 1,000 pounds or 1,000 kilos, which is quite different in volume and in mass.
Mr. Vigneault: Again, we will provide the actual study with the recent number. I would reiterate my point that it is not really about the mass, but it is more the ecosystem approach. I was referring to metric tons.
Senator Ringuette: A 1,000 metric tons.
Mr. Vigneault: 1,000 kilograms per year is the order of magnitude of the seal consumption. Again, we will provide a more recent number. The challenge is that you cannot just extrapolate and assume.
Senator Ringuette: No, it is an average.
Mr. Vigneault: Yes, obviously, if you multiply that by the number of seals, that’s a large mass of fish that’s comparable — if not more — to other mortality causes for stocks. But that’s not the only way to look at those numbers.
Senator Ringuette: It would be interesting if you could compare that mass of 1,000 kilos per year to what the average quantity or mass of fish from one fisherman is. That’s probably for down the road.
You constantly talk about ecosystem. Correct me if I am wrong — and I am not a scientist, I might be wrong — but, for me, the ecosystem constantly changes with time.
My question to you is: What is your benchmark in regards to the normal, sustainable ecosystem so that you trigger an action from the department? Again, we’re talking about seals here for the purpose of this.
You must have a benchmark in an ecosystem year. What is it? Following that, what would trigger an action from the department in order to get back to that “normal” benchmark for seals?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you, senator, for the question. I could speak to how we consider the ecosystem changing for our science advice. Then my colleague can provide additional information on the management decision that follows.
Yes, as you alluded to, the ecosystem is highly variable. That’s why we collect data several times a year, so that we can monitor and document the variability and change in the ecosystems in terms of the actual oceanographic parameters, like the temperature of the water, acidity and so on.
Also, all the ecosystem’s biological parameters — we need to have an understanding of how it is evolving through time, starting from the bottom of the food chain, the microalgae that are growing, the zooplankton and so on. That all feeds into our science advice on stock assessments for seals and for fish species.
Most often, it is a qualitative assessment. In some cases, we are able to have a direct relationship, for example, in some of the parameters and the growth of the population, but that’s all part of the science advice. That’s all assessed every time we update our assessment of a seal population.
To give you a seal example, in the last assessment of harp seals, it was documented and noted that the ice coverage has a very significant impact on the survival of pups. Therefore, with regard to population growth, there were several years of very poor ice condition that did not support the optimal reproduction. There is a change in where the harp seals are reproducing because of the lack of ice in the southern part of the Atlantic.
We have documented that in our science work in the field. At the time, we had provided comments that this is something to follow in future years. This is an unknown in terms of future planning. But when we provide the science advice, we take into account — with the available information — the ecosystem and the environmental changes.
Senator Ringuette: Chair, if I may, I appreciate this information. However, my question was specific to seals because I do remember in the 1980s what happened to the cod fisheries at the Grand Banks. That was the region.
My question in regards to benchmark — the ecosystem of that timeframe, how do you benchmark what should be normal? When does an abnormal situation in regards to that normal benchmark trigger an action at the department?
Maybe I’m not clear as to what I am seeking because we need to understand — at least I need to understand — what is that ecosystem benchmark in regards to seals that you are using?
Mr. Burns: Thank you for the question. I guess what I would say is an ecosystem approach to fisheries management is a very new concept, which is not really deployed anywhere at this point.
As I mentioned to you, senator, before the meeting, I have just returned from the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization meetings where we have now advanced on some ecosystem indicators that can help inform fisheries management decisions.
Similarly, work is under way within Canada on approaches that might better inform fisheries management decisions from an ecosystem perspective. At this time, however, that scientific knowledge is not advanced to a point where we would be able to establish ecosystem objectives or targets in terms of how we would want the relative populations to be balanced, and certainly not to a point where we would then be able to implement measures to try to manipulate an ecosystem to those targeted levels. In terms of ecosystem indicators, they are incorporated into the stock assessment advice that DFO science would provide us to inform our fisheries management decisions, as an example.
When it comes to seals, we authorize a commercial fishery each year. As we all know, the markets are such that removals are extremely low. We do authorize a significant commercial harvest. Indeed, we don’t have a specified cap. I’m talking about the East Coast here. If removals were ever to reach a level that would bring into question the sustainability of the stock, first, we would be very pleased, and second, we would then consider what we need to do and how that might look.
At this point, the recent average removals for harp seals is just under 30,000 animals per year. That’s significantly below what could be removed while still maintaining the population at the level it is now.
Mr. Vigneault: What could be removed is based on the maximum level of population that we have in our assessments. Basically, the science advice we provide is based on the high probability of not going below 70% of the observed maximum. As my colleague just mentioned, those allowable maximum harvest levels are much higher than what’s currently harvested.
Senator Ringuette: This is going to be an interesting study. Thank you.
Senator Busson: I would like to direct my question to Ms. Reid from the Pacific region because I’m interested in that region specifically. We have lots of coverage of the other coasts.
In our briefing, it says that the commercial harvest of marine mammals was never a thing in the Pacific region. I would like to first ask why that is, historically. I think I know the answer, but I would like to hear it.
From there, I think your colleague said that most of the study around seals is being done in the Salish Sea, and I have some anecdotal experience around Prince Rupert and the area around Haida Gwaii where if you’re fishing for salmon there, it’s almost rare to not see a salmon that has some evidence of being in close proximity to a seal somewhere along the line. The seals come up the Skeena River hundreds of kilometres to chase the salmon, specifically. But they also have a bearing on the herring and eulachon fisheries on the West Coast. Could you make some general comments about your observations and focus outside the Salish Sea and generally give a history lesson on why there are no seal fisheries on the West Coast?
Ms. Reid: Thank you for the question. There were predator control programs and commercial fisheries in the past until protections were put in place in the 1970s. Today, the only authorized harvest for pinnipeds is for food, social and ceremonial purposes. There is no commercial or recreational access. Populations, as you note, have been increasing in recent years. We are returning to national historical levels.
Regarding the lack of a commercial fishery, as Mr. Burns said, we don’t have commercial fisheries for population controls or for cull programs. Whereas in the past, there was a bounty on seals and definitely a cull in place. That doesn’t occur anymore. Then, of course, we have prohibitions because of the Marine Mammal Protection Act in the United States around removals of pinnipeds.
There is no question that the population of seals are opportunistic feeders, so they go where the food is. They can habituate to certain locations. They know a certain river, perhaps in Haida Gwaii or another location, has a good source of salmon and so they will go and take their feed there. You will see the impact of seals harvesting salmon, but they also fish for a number of other species as well. It’s whatever is there.
The reason for a lack of a commercial fishery — we have a policy that would allow it. It would be a new fishery, so it would need to go through a new and emerging fisheries policy, as it’s called. But there needs to be evidence of a market that is established or could be established for the use of the animals or the product. To date, it has been hard to establish a market for seals. They’re primarily used for cultural and social reasons by Indigenous groups for their own purposes. That’s really the answer about why there isn’t a harvest.
There could be a small one. The population of harbour seals is about 85,000 in British Columbia, and we think you could remove about 5,000 and sustain the population. There is some room to harvest. Now, some of those seals are taken through Indigenous harvests, but not a lot. I’m wondering, senator, if that helps address some of your questions.
Senator Busson: It does to a point. For clarification, is your focus in your research on populations mostly on the Salish Sea or do you have good data from northern British Columbia?
Ms. Reid: The majority of the work is done in the Salish Sea. We have some collaborative work with our U.S. partners, for example, in the south. There are aerial surveys that we do for population estimates more broadly, but there is more of a focus on the south. I would agree with that, yes.
Senator Ataullahjan: Something you said piqued my interest. You spoke of having limited collaboration with the industry. We know that the industry disputes the claims that seals are not harming fish populations. We’ve also heard the report that was released in May that the harp and grey seals are at historical levels, that they are having a serious impact on the ocean and ecosystem in Atlantic Canada and that the extent of impacts cannot be determined by the limited information held by DFO science. Would you care to comment on that?
Mr. Vigneault: Thank you for the question. The feedback from the industry representatives that participated in the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team was greatly appreciated. I mentioned earlier the opportunities and interest from the industry and the opportunities of gathering missing data to collaborate. That’s welcome and we’re working on that.
There is also a part of the recommendation that we’re following to continue to involve the industry in not only the data collection, but also in terms of participating as knowledge holders as part of our stock assessment. We do the assessment through a peer-review process, but where we invite, in some cases, Indigenous and traditional knowledge holders that can help frame the discussion and help the scientists do the proper interpretation of the data. That’s an option. We also present the results of our assessment with the seal advisory groups so they have a chance to ask questions and we have a chance to share the information.
We had an internal exercise within Fisheries and Oceans that looks at the science to date on seals. There were a number of gaps that we have identified. There is overlap with what the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team has recommended, and we’re actively working on implementing that.
Though there are a lot of core gaps in terms of those related to the dietary question, I think we have fairly strong methods to do the assessment of the population — that was the finding of the task team. Where there are gaps, the science is behind being able to say what the quantitative impacts of the predation on the commercial fish stock are. That’s where additional sampling at various times of the year would be useful.
The Chair: Before I go to Senator Cordy, do you have any information you can share with us today regarding the Seal Summit taking place in St. John’s? Do you have any information you can give us?
Mr. Burns: Yes. Unfortunately, the person we had joining us for that purpose is Mr. Tiwary, whose microphone is not working. I will give it to Mr. McGillivray.
William McGillivray, Regional Director General, Newfoundland and Labrador Region, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: The summit will be in St. John’s on November 8 and 9 of this year. It should bring together a lot of people for collaboration and dialogue on advancing fisheries and science management, creating economic opportunities for rural and Indigenous communities and also a focus on the development of new products and diversifying markets for seals and seal products.
We’re looking forward to bringing together industry partners, Indigenous partners, commercial fisheries, environmental and non-governmental organizations, representations for academia and provincial and territorial representatives.
It’s coming soon, and it should be a good event for that.
At the same time, as I think Mr. Vigneault alluded to, on November 10, there is a meeting of the Atlantic Seal Advisory Committee. It is not part of the summit, but it’s hosted by the department and brings together Indigenous and industry partners to discuss seals, management and the science of seals.
The Chair: Is that happening in St. John’s as well?
Mr. McGillivray: St. John’s, yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Cordy: I was going to ask about marketability, but you asked about that. Then I was going to ask about the summit, and you asked about that.
The Chair: I can read your mind.
Senator Cordy: So I would like to thank the officials today. For me, personally, it has been a great start to our study. There is certainly a lot we will have to dig into. You’ve certainly provided a great basis for that this morning. Thank you.
Senator Ataullahjan: I don’t know if this applies to the study, but I watched with dismay the drought in B.C. and the amount of salmon that were killed. Will that impact the seal population at all? I’ve never seen anything like it. I don’t know if anyone else has, but I was horrified.
Ms. Reid: Thank you very much.
In terms of the videos of that situation, I couldn’t agree more. It was horrifying to see the impacts of the streams drying up and the lack of rain that we’ve been experiencing in British Columbia this summer.
Regarding the impacts on seals, it was a lot — a huge amount of fish. It was one specific stream.
I would say, though, that the impact of climate change and the lack of rain are going to have broader impacts on returning salmon. It could impact seals, but there are far broader impacts to salmon populations and returns that are quite troubling.
Senator Francis: As it pertains to Canada’s Atlantic and Arctic regions and the commercial seal harvests that occur there, how many fishers who were issued a commercial licence actively participate in the commercial harvest, and what proportion of those are Indigenous harvesters?
Mr. Burns: I actually do not have the breakdown of commercial harvesters and whether they are Indigenous. I can check whether that is information that would be collected, which we could undertake.
I can tell you that, for example, in Newfoundland in 2021, there were 3,786 commercial licences issued, 17 in P.E.I., 11 in New Brunswick, 45 in Nova Scotia and 951 in Quebec. In addition to that, there are personal-use licences that allow individuals to harvest seals for their own personal consumption, which are just issued in Newfoundland at 1,464 and in Quebec at 547.
Senator Francis: If you can get further information, I would appreciate it.
Mr. Burns: Absolutely.
Senator Francis: Thank you.
The Chair: Just to be clear, those are 3,786 commercial licences to get seals?
Mr. Burns: That’s the number that were issued. I don’t have the active numbers — the number that reported any landings.
Just for reference, for 2021, the harp seal removals were 26,545. It was a very low year for grey seals — abnormally low — at 234, compared to this year at 1,149 grey seals and 3 hooded seals.
The Chair: A seal — it’s part of the licence renewal with other species or is it a stand-alone?
Mr. Burns: It is a stand-alone licence. It’s a seal licence.
The Chair: So it’s 3,786 for stand-alone licences and 1,464 for personal use.
Mr. Burns: And that is because of the professionalization requirements within the seal fishery.
The Chair: So it is over 5,000 licences and fewer than 30,000 seals. I think we have a problem.
Senator Ravalia: This is an outside-of-the-box suggestion or question. We’re dealing with a worldwide food security crisis given what’s happening with Russia and Ukraine. Seals are a very rich source of protein. Is there some way the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada could work with Global Affairs Canada and other departments to harvest a large number of seals and provide a protein source to parts of the world that are currently desperate for food? We see the emergence of a potential famine in Africa and food source issues in sub-Saharan Africa, in particular.
Is that something you could look at?
Mr. Burns: At this point, we’re focused on market development from a commercial perspective and that will be the focus of the Seal Summit where there will be sessions on product development and marketability.
So that isn’t the strategy that’s being undertaken at this time. We are looking to support the East Coast industries that seek to export seal products, and we are attempting to find additional markets or to assist them in finding additional markets.
Senator Ravalia: I raise this because I just had such a conversation with a very experienced sealer in my home community who thought, given the biomass that is out there, that if they were given permission to increase their harvest and only remunerate it in terms of the base costs of acquiring the products, they would be very willing to look at a way of assisting those in need. I think that is a general response that is common in Newfoundland — that altruistic response as you watch these horrendous scenes on television. That is a tangential thought you might bring back.
Senator Quinn: I just have a couple of quick questions. I want to follow up on Senator Ravalia’s question, but I want to come at it a little bit differently. There is a group of senators who formed a group called Senators for Climate Solutions, and we had one of the world’s leading experts address us yesterday. She happens to be a Canadian — Dr. Katherine Hayhoe from Texas Tech University. She is a renowned person studying climate change and how we save the planet and ourselves. Without the planet and without us, there is no relationship.
I’m so glad you asked that question because when you talked earlier about market development and whatnot, it was from a commercial basis. As you look at market solutions, there is an opportunity for Canada to become a source of protein for countries all over the world that are suffering severely from lack of protein. It might be that we have an opportunity — you said 7.6 million — about 70% would be a number we would get concerned about what’s happening in that population. On that basis, about 5 million is the level you get to if we had a 70% number. That still leaves 2.5 million seals.
It would be interesting if we did a pilot to do some kind of harvesting that was geared toward Canada donating protein to countries in need, where we could pay fishermen to harvest the seals and steer them that way. There might be by-products and exotic parts that are used in other parts of the world. I think it’s something the department should consider on the side of the market development — a role for Canada to play a leadership role and for DFO to pick up the gauntlet and play that role.
That is just a comment. Thank you for asking that question.
My other question is for Ms. Reid. Has there ever been a survey of the numbers of seals on the West Coast? If so, could we get those numbers so we have an appreciation of it? As my colleague Senator Busson said, this is a heavily Atlantic Canadian committee, but it is as important an issue on the West Coast as it is on the East Coast. It would help all of us to have an order of magnitude for the issue on the West Coast. I put that request to you folks.
The Chair: Mr. Burns, do you want to respond?
Mr. Burns: I’ll actually turn to Ms. Reid, who has those numbers.
Ms. Reid: Thank you. We do have recent stock assessment information available, which we can provide. It is a Canadian science advisory report.
In summary, the number of harbour seals is approximately 85,000 and the number of sea lions is around 35,000, I think. I might need to correct that, but we can certainly provide you the stock assessment information.
In addition to that, there is additional work going on. There are regular surveys conducted — aerial surveys — that are coast-wide. Using that methodology, we have a pretty good idea of the population of seals and sea lions.
Senator Quinn: Thank you. I have another small point, very quickly —
The Chair: One moment, Senator Quinn. As soon as you can, Ms. Reid, please send that information to us.
Ms. Reid: Thank you.
Senator Quinn: Thank you. I feel we’re going to run out of time.
I want to put forward another observation. I just finished 11 years working at the Port of Saint John. Over those 11 years, two things were noticeable for me. One was the returning of fish stocks into the harbour — various stocks. The second was the increase of harbour seals to the point where seals are being seen as far up as Gagetown, which is a long way from the mouth of the river.
So there is a dynamic that is occurring. It’s what you were saying: The ecosystem is very complex. I make that observation to note that it’s not just that Atlantic coast area, but also those inland water areas. Senator Busson referred to that as well.
It is something we have to think about in terms of how we address that broader issue because the ecosystem is changing, climate change is having its effect and predatory mammals and others — birds — are going to deplete the increasing stocks. There’s no doubt about it. It’s an observation.
Ms. Reid: I will comment just to correct my number. For sea lions, it is between 38,000 and 48,000. I was a bit low in my estimate.
I would agree with you that because seals and sea lions are opportunistic feeders, they will go into areas they know are a good source of food. We need to consider the local effects as well as the coast-wide impacts and the overall impacts that seals have on the ecosystem. Yes, they do have an impact on salmon, but they also have an impact on other fish that eat salmon.
There is a complicated ecosystem effect on seals as they’re a part of that broader whole.
Senator Ringuette: As part of your market development unit, in relation to the issue of protein, do you invest in research and consider how to market seal protein? For instance, we know we have smoked salmon and such. I know that Agriculture and Agri‑Food Canada market development is very active in terms of market research to add value to Canadian products.
Is it something that your department does with regard to your market development portfolio?
Mr. Burns: Thank you for the question. I will make an attempt to answer it given the audio challenges that my colleague is facing.
There are a couple of points. First, we do provide funding through various sources to the industry in order to assist them in market development in terms of looking at new opportunities and strategies for the development. That is a stream of work that is undertaken under the various funding mechanisms that exist.
The other point I would make is that the Seal Summit coming up in St. John’s next month will have components related to innovative product development and that sort of thing. I don’t know if my colleague Mr. McGillivray wants to speak further to the summit, but an important aspect of the summit is to look at that diversified product portfolio in order to develop new products that have the ability to get into foreign markets where other components of the seal may not be permitted.
Senator Ringuette: For example, 100 years ago, lobster was used as fertilizer, and now it’s probably our most expensive fish export. There is a big need to look at value added and the protein that is necessary around the world. Thank you.
You opened the door to my second question. I’m not a permanent member of this committee, but I find this committee is starting an extremely important study. By the same coincidence, you are having a Seal Summit this fall. I hope that an invitation will be extended to the members of this committee to attend the summit.
The Chair: It’s on my list for closing remarks.
Mr. McGillivray, do you have anything to add to Mr. Burns’s answer to Senator Ringuette in terms of the summit and product development?
Mr. McGillivray: I have nothing to add, but I hear the request.
The Chair: Okay. Thank you.
I want to thank the witnesses here this morning. As I mentioned to you before we began, you are the first witnesses we’ve had on this particular study as we begin what is shaping up to be a very interesting study with the information. It’s a fair amount of information that we received from you here this morning. We reserve the right to call you back when necessary during our study because I’m sure we will hear information from other witnesses that will certainly generate some more questions to which we would only get answers from the department. We will certainly welcome the opportunity to do that.
I would like to issue an invitation to my colleagues here in relation to the information that we received this morning related to the Seal Summit in Newfoundland and Labrador. November is always a nice time to visit our province — well, really, any time is a nice time to visit Newfoundland and Labrador. We welcome anybody who would like to join us. I am extremely interested in that myself. Certainly, it is a learning experience and it will play a part in what we are doing here with our study.
Once again, any information that we have requested, if you would, Mr. Burns and company, please get it to our analysts as soon as you can so that we can get some of the information that we need to help us with our study.
Senator Busson, I see your hand moving.
Senator Busson: I am sorry, Mr. Chair, and it is part of what you said, but if there is a report generated by the Seal Summit, I would ask that it be part of the information provided.
The Chair: That should not be a problem, I don’t think.
(The committee adjourned.)