THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 20, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 9:04 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Fabian Manning, senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I have the pleasure to chair this meeting this morning.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
Just in case, should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal to the chair or the clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue.
I would like to take a few moments to ask the members of the committee here with me this morning to introduce themselves.
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed-Iqbal Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Kutcher: Stan Kutcher, Nova Scotia.
Senator Cordy: Jane Cordy, Nova Scotia.
Senator Francis: Brian Francis, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Busson: Bev Busson, British Columbia.
Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn, New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you, senators.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries. Today, under this mandate, the committee will be hearing from members of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team.
We have the pleasure to welcome Robert Hardy, Fisheries Consultant; Kris Vascotto, Executive Director, Atlantic Groundfish Council; Ginny Boudreau, Executive Director, Guysborough County Inshore Fishermen’s Association; and Laura Ramsay, Research and Liaison Officer, Prince Edward Island Fishermen’s Association.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I thank you for joining us today. I understand that the witnesses have opening remarks. Following the presentation of your remarks, I’m sure members of the committee will have many questions for you.
Kris Vascotto, Executive Director, Atlantic Groundfish Council:
Thank you for the invitation to attend this important session.
As you are no doubt aware, the seal population in Atlantic Canada is subject to much debate. Harvesters and stakeholders often have a dramatically different perspective of the role of seal herds than that presented by departmental science officials. It was with these differences that the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team was established.
The mandate of the team was clear: speak to the priorities and activities of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans’ — DFO — seal science program, comment on how industry can be included in the collection of information to support seal science and explore how the DFO’s findings could be better communicated with the fishing industry. This was well achieved in the closing report provided by the team.
Now we must ask what happens next. We have seen action on one recommendation, but there remains a litany of others that are of equal — if not higher — importance and also demand attention.
I would like to highlight one piece that I have identified as being incredibly important to providing a fulsome understanding of the impact of harp and grey seals on the marine ecosystem.
Global consumption estimates for the harp seal herd are based on diet information informed by stomach samples collected generally from inshore areas far outside of the core offshore distribution of the herd. In fact, the only diet data that exists for the offshore portion of the stock is derived from samples collected in the mid-2000s when the structure of the fish community in those offshore areas was remarkably different than today. Extrapolation of unrepresentative diet information to represent the entire time series and herd is inappropriate and potentially misleading. When such glaring inconsistencies are identified, departmental officials should express this uncertainty as opposed to making firm conclusions that are unfounded upon the information and data provided.
Similarly, we must also accept that marine species exist in dramatically different abundances, meaning the magnitude of impact on a species must be considered on an individual basis. If Atlantic salmon are being consumed by a handful of seals residing in a river, this will never be detected in current diet studies, thus underestimating the impact of this consumption, which may have profound impacts on that local salmon population. This must be considered in both data collection and interpretation.
Better information on distribution, diet and consumption will help to determine what the current productivity of our fish stocks actually is under the current regime of predation — a necessary component to supporting the sustainable fish stock provisions and to bring confidence in understanding the rebuilding targets for our marine fish stocks. This will keep our population targets realistic and achievable and reflect the productivity of the current marine environment.
The role of seals on the basic productivity of our fish and seafood populations is a huge concern for our members, and there continues to be a disconnect between the information presented by DFO science and the belief of industry on these matters. Closing this gap is incredibly important to maintaining confidence in Canada’s fisheries science and management system.
Thank you again for the opportunity to speak on this matter.
The Chair: Thank you.
Ginny Boudreau, Executive Director, Guysborough County Inshore Fishermen’s Association: Good morning. I’m very appreciative of the opportunity to speak today.
I would like to speak briefly on the DFO science, specifically scientific research priorities. Appendix 4 of the Report of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team — the summary of written submissions received as the number one key message as well as one of the nine recommendations — states:
DFO should focus its seal research on establishing seal feeding patterns/consumption rates, and incorporating these findings into scientific stock assessments . . . .
And I will add that they should be included in species rebuilding plans, as well as integrated fisheries management plans.
The lack of consistent real-time data sets collected from the field over the full range of the grey and harp seals with year-round sampling has resulted in greater economic loss to our harvesters and communities and a greater loss to our fish species populations and most especially those in rebuilding mode.
The lack of statements from the seal biologist on the diets, predation, competition in the food web and further ecosystem effects from the exploding seal populations throughout all of Atlantic Canada has ultimately excluded their effects and discussions from stock assessments and their mortality factors from the species’ rebuilding plans.
Seal biologists should be given every possible resource, partnering with our communities and our fishing industry, to do a complete study on seal diets year-round, not just when they’re pupping or when they’re accessible on the ice or on Sable Island.
Grey seals and harp seals are not threatened, at risk or endangered. We see here, on the Eastern Scotian Shelf, right to the shores of Nova Scotia coastlines, the ever-increasing numbers of great white sharks feeding on these seals more and more every day. Historically, that was not the situation.
The federal and provincial governments have a huge role to play as promoters of a Canadian cultural and economic resource that is harvested sustainably and humanely. Step up, support and promote this rich resource.
Over the past 30 plus years, we have accomplished two things: We have become experts in counting seals and talking about seals.
This task force had nine recommendations that required action. I feel that the seal summit will not result in the action that we need soon enough and we’ll just continue to talk about the seals and, of course, continue to count them.
I look forward to further discussions on these topics and thank you again for your time today.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Boudreau.
Laura Ramsay, Research & Liaison Officer, Prince Edward Island Fishermen’s Association: Thank you for inviting us and for including me this morning, a bit last minute, to jump in. I don’t have something as well prepared as Mr. Vascotto or Ms. Boudreau, but I think they articulated it very well.
The report itself states a lot of what our task team has been talking about the last two or three years. Further to what Ms. Boudreau mentioned about moving towards action, a lot of our members have been discussing this for years at various DFO advisory committees, for example, the Groundfish Advisory Committee, the Small Pelagic Advisory Committee, the Atlantic Mackerel Advisory Committee and so on. Often, it’s raised as an impact to those species. Where does that information go from there? Where do those observations go from there? Essentially, they die. They do not continue any type of further development in it. When it comes to the southern Gulf, in particular, and we’re talking about Atlantic cod, it’s important to note that we are making some headway on seal impacts — but then what?
Since 2019, scientific evidence has been published about needing a 65% reduction in the seal herd to maintain the cod levels we have now. It would need to be greater than a 65% reduction to see any improvements. Yet, we are still going through the rebuilding of that stock and have not come up with a steady plan to address those groundfish in the southern Gulf.
In a small number of fish species, we have come up with some of this evidence, but where do we go from there? How do managers deal with that? How do we integrate that into some of the seal science and the seal science priorities that are moving forward? We have to make sure that the information we do collect continues on and that it is useful and is being used in a meaningful way.
Thank you very much. I’m looking forward to today.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Ramsay.
Robert Hardy, Fisheries Consultant, as an individual: Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans and other presenters. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the most important fisheries science topics: seal predation and its impact on Canada’s east, west and Arctic fisheries.
This year is the thirtieth anniversary of the closure of the northern cod fishery. Once the greatest fishery in the world, it was closed in July 1992 and represents the largest lay-off in Canadian history. After three decades of a moratorium, imposed fishing regulations and continued science, the northern cod and other fisheries are a mere fraction of its previous existence. DFO’s latest research indicates that cod stocks and other fisheries remain critical with little recovery.
The fishing industry and the public, for many years, have pointed to record seal populations and predation as the possible cause, while DFO science is reluctant to accept the impact of seals on any fish stocks, for example, Atlantic cod, capelin, Atlantic mackerel or west and east coast salmon. Instead, DFO remains dismissive and ignores the evidence provided by fishers, industry associations and seal science from other North Atlantic fishing nations — countries with the same seal and fish populations as our own.
There is considerable international commentary regarding the impact of pinnipeds on fisheries. Countries like Norway, Iceland, the United States, the Baltics and Scandinavia are recognizing the impact of seals. All of these countries have fewer seal species than Canada and most with only a few hundred thousand animals compared to our 10 million estimated combined populations.
DFO, in January 2022, provided information on daily harp seal consumption rates at 3% of body weight — roughly 3 kilograms per day — while data from Norwegian scientists indicates higher rates of up to 7 to 9 kilograms per day. The difference when extrapolated over 7,600,000 harp seals is enormous and cannot be discounted.
Norway, in 1986 and 1995, experienced significant decline in all fish resources. Their science referred to it as a harp seal invasion. Depletion of our fisheries leading up to 1992 has not received a similar review by Canada’s fisheries managers.
I have included a few graphs, which I believe you all have, that illustrate how the fish stocks in Norway were depleted. Above that, the Norwegian scientists refer to it as a seal invasion. Another chart shows our own Atlantic cod production. You can see that it dropped down in the early 90s and it stayed flat until today. Yet, there is no inference as to the impact of seals.
Most recently, after the submission of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team report, there has been discussion of either a seal summit or a seal forum. There have been far too many seal studies, committees and forums without any real action. There are many other Atlantic Seal Science Task Team recommendations relating to enhanced diet sampling, spatial analysis through the entire seal habitat, greater fisher participation in science programs and the important analysis of river seals. These recommended science activities should be implemented immediately.
In closing, I include a quote from a senior DFO scientist:
For years, fishermen have been told it’s fishing that drives populations. . . . DFO manages fishermen, not fish, so it’s only natural fishermen might consider seals as a competitive fishery.
He went on to call it “predator envy.” From my perspective, there is no envy in the current state of Canada’s fishery or its science program.
Thank you for your valuable time. I look forward to answering questions and sharing any information.
The Chair: Thank you to our witnesses for their opening remarks. There is no doubt in my mind that you have generated some questions from the senators.
Senator Busson: My question is directed at Mr. Hardy, if he doesn’t mind, and anyone else is welcome to chime in.
You stated, Mr. Hardy, regarding the Seal Summit and a number of other endeavours, that there have been a lot of studies without action. We hope not to be on that list as we move forward.
I find it surprising and disturbing that you stated in your opinion that DFO is almost dismissive of the effect of pinnipeds. Today, we’re specifically talking about grey and harp seals on the fish stocks. You speak of the East Coast. I’m from British Columbia, and we have some concern about the salmon and other stocks on the West Coast as well.
Do you have any opinion on what is at the root of this clash of data or opinion around what the effect of the seal population is? You stated that countries such as Norway and others have data that go in a completely different direction, and you say that DFO is dismissive. Could you give us more background on that from your professional opinion?
Mr. Hardy: I’ll try to answer, and maybe the other members here can jump in afterward.
“Dismissive” is a term we used through our discussions on the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team. It is something that I think every task team member has experienced in their meetings and different interactions with DFO over the years.
From a Newfoundland perspective, the various committees set up for different species that are fished in Newfoundland, many times fishermen bring up at these meetings — whether it’s a capelin, mackerel or crab meeting — that seals have an impact. Sometimes the comments are brought up so frequently that the DFO manager for the particular meeting has threatened to shut the meeting down if they don’t stop talking about seals, because it is not, in particular, a seal meeting.
Personally, I was at a Northern cod technical briefing in 2019 in St. John’s, and there was a room full of people from industry and DFO. I think Mr. Vascotto might have been present at the same meeting. There were at least six individuals with many years of experience, some of them with 30-plus years in the industry.
I’ll use some examples. The fishermen’s union got up. Three of the larger fish companies got up. The inshore groundfish council got up. Some northern fishing representatives got up. Each one of them said that they believe DFO has to take a stronger look at the impact of seals, and particularly harp seals, on Northern cod. I tell you right here — Mr. Vascotto can nod if I’m right — the answer from the DFO scientists after those presentations was, “We see no impact from seals on Northern cod.”
It is not an imagined topic; it’s something that is real. It has been around for years. If you look at any of the reporting from DFO in Atlantic Canada, with the exception of grey seals and the report by Dr. Doug Swain on the impact on Gulf cod, there are few, if any, which make a direct correlation to seal predation and the current stock of fisheries.
I’ll let some of the others jump in if they want.
Mr. Vascotto: Thank you. I appreciate the question. It is interesting.
There are regional differences that exist within the department as well. There was a strong reference made to Dr. Doug Swain, down in the southern Gulf, who looked at the southern Gulf cod stock, and he looked very closely at it. He said, “Look, we’re seeing this incredible rise in natural mortality. We can’t link it to anything else but this expanding seal herd.” If you go, let’s say, around the point, down to southwest Nova Scotia, we’re talking about something like 4X or 5Y cod, and we see very similar increases in natural mortality that crop up with the production of fish before they ever get anywhere. And it is not the fishery that has been doing that; it is some other factor. There has been some supposition that says it is likely a predation effect and could, potentially, be seals. Then we go to other regions of the department where there is a refusal to actually consider that this may be an impact, and we default to certain pieces of evidence that might not necessarily support the conclusions that are being raised.
So there seems to be a regional difference in terms of how this is being considered. What is clear is each one of these stock assessments that we’re talking about all demonstrate a significant increase of natural mortality that is not attributable to fishing, that is preventing the stocks from recovering. That often is seemingly coincident with the expansion of these seal herds.
Some people are willing to make that link very tightly, and others are trying to find reasons why that is not the case. That is creating this discrepancy.
For example, Mr. Hardy references the harp seal herd. Most of the harp seal herd, in winter, is largely in those offshore areas, which also happens to be the wintering area of many of these other stocks. If we talk about Ms. Boudreau’s area, we’re talking about where the seals are overlapping with some of their pelagic fisheries, which are preventing these animals from being able to actually make it through. So this is not a fishery effect, yet there seems to be a lack of interest in trying to create the link of what else it might be. As we look around, a lot of these smoking guns seem to be when we are talking about these pinniped populations.
As I said, there is a big regional difference, there is a science difference, and it is just about there being a willingness to draw that link and consider that link between the two.
Thank you for the opportunity.
Senator Quinn: Thank you to the witnesses for being here this morning. I would like to follow up on the direction that Senator Busson was going in.
We had officials from the department on the panel last week. They talked about various other influences on the fish population, other predators, if you will, such as birds and whales, et cetera. They seemed to underscore the effect of the 7.6 million seals in relation to the amount of fish that is consumed by them, so your commentary this morning was very interesting.
I’m going to go down a road that says the science folks in Fisheries and Oceans are very good scientists, and they work within that department. I’m wondering, though, if their work is often considered by those applying when they get into the heavier discussions about seals and what effect they may or may not have, and that the scientists’ good work may be looked at in a different manner — not disregarded, but not taking it as heavily in terms of the decisions and discussions.
I’m looking for your guidance here. How much research is done within the fishing community by the various associations? Would we be better placed if Fisheries and Oceans directed part of their science budget to those private-sector entities, and that work would have to be submitted to the minister, and the minister would have his officials take that work into consideration so there is a more balanced view?
I’m trying to be gentle here when I say that. I’m wondering what your observations or commentary might be on that. That is for any of the witnesses, but I’d like to start with Ms. Boudreau.
Ms. Boudreau: Since I am a representative of a fishing organization, I will attempt to answer that for you, Senator Quinn. Thank you for the question. That is actually a difficult process to engage in. It seems that, politically, the discussion regarding seal populations and their effect on our other fish species is difficult. It’s difficult for our politicians to have the discussion, and it seems like that has trickled down to our seal biologists. We can’t, as an industry, even begin the conversation with our species biologists in relation to the effects of this massively growing seal population on these species.
Why is that? Why doesn’t anyone want to talk about it? Why don’t the seal biologists want more information on this particular mammal and the effects of it on the food web and the unbalance it has caused? You ask if fisher organizations could take on some of this research. We have been asking for many years to be allowed to take on — even take the lead on — some of the research on seal predation, especially for our groundfish and pelagic species here in eastern Nova Scotia where we have been under a cod moratorium. That has already been recognized by my counterpart Mr. Hardy. We failed. It’s been 30 years, and we’ve seen no effects. We do see an ever-increasing seal population that has been allowed to completely unbalance that food web and ecosystem.
What would it take for us to be engaged in the research? Capacity, for one thing: We are very limited in our science capacity. We mainly partner with our Department of Fisheries and Oceans biologists or universities. We are very open to those partnerships, but we’ve never been afforded the opportunity. So before we could engage, that capacity would be required. I feel that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in setting up the seal task force, has even set us back even further in that process. I don’t think there was a clear understanding between the department’s mandate and our seal biologists. I’m very aware that they were put out and were insulted that individuals who are not scientists — I’ll speak for myself; I am not a seal scientist — but we do have a lot knowledge and experience to contribute to this conversation. Do you think they want to work with us now, when we’ve come out and have been presented as negatively bashing their research? That’s not the intent. The associations would like to get to the real research on the diets, not the counting.
Senator Quinn: Thank you for all of that. My background is easily found on the Senate website. I’ve spent a number of years in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I just wanted to make that clear.
Would we be better served in having the science research area of the department hived off to become an independent agency of government that does research and is probably a little freer to express the science? Then they can let the decision makers mull over science that is separate from that decision-making process.
Ms. Boudreau: I think that the department and the science department have made quite a bit of effort in trying to accomplish that — to present their science as independent from outside influence. That’s very difficult when you’re looking at an economic resource that sustains many communities in Canada. It’s also one of the main food sources for the Canadian public.
I see many benefits to separating them, but I also see many challenges. Maybe some of my counterparts would like to weigh in on that. Thank you for the question.
Ms. Ramsay: Yes, although not particularly about the second question about the independent body. That’s a really interesting question, though. I might leave that to the other task force members.
The first question was about how much work was being done by the associations. I wanted to mention that we are involved in a lot of research partnerships with the department, and we’ve created a really successful opportunity to collect that data, lobster populations being a key one that we’ve really jumped into.
Now, when it comes to seals, I’ve been with the Prince Edward Island Fishermen’s Association for 14 years. When we started, we were talking about seals and trying to document that. We have 1,200 members — 1,200 fishermen who are on the water. They’re observing what they see every day. They’re seeing changes in behaviour, distribution and sizes and how that’s impacting other fisheries. Even working with the department, we attempted to have some data added to what was on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans data sheets. We thought we would add those observations. So for a series of a dozen years, we started adding to the comments that seals took the bait off the hook or seals have come in so there’s none on this set or whatever the case might be.
Fast forward to now, and we look at those observations, and they’ve just been made as comments and kind of dismissed. We’ve got other projects and other collaborations that work really well, so I think there’s an opportunity. We want to work together, but there’s certainly a divide between the seal science, managing seals and everything around seals and the fishing community. How we bring those two together and start working together, that is something that has to be worked on. We need to make the next step.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Ramsay.
Senator Kutcher: I’m going to put my old scientist hat on here. There are various statistical techniques and complex modellings that can help us sort out proportional impact and multifactors on any particular issue. We see it with climate science all the time, so they should be able to be used on seal populations.
I’m going to ask a rather challenging question of everyone on the panel. In your opinion, does the DFO have the scientific capacity and competency to conduct the type of work that needs to be done? If not, how could that be redressed? If they do, why do you think these issues that you have raised are not being listened to?
Mr. Hardy: To follow up on what Ms. Ramsay and Ms. Boudreau said, yes, there is a divide between the scientific community and industry. One of the recommendations that we had in our report was to involve industry more. As Ms. Boudreau said, the distribution of her members can quickly determine a lot more information than a small group of scientists would. This information can be collected on a daily basis, when fishers are on the water.
As a task team, we reviewed presentations from Norway as part of the deliberations, and we did see different approaches to science. Mr. Vascotto, you are probably able to address that question. Can you give it a try?
Mr. Vascotto: Thank you for the opportunity to weigh in on this one. It’s always difficult. I separated this into two different bins as I jotted down some notes while Mr. Hardy was responding.
In order to make those suppositions and links and talk about that in a multifactorial way, you actually need good data to be able to support it. That’s one of the pieces that we’re talking about that seems to be the gap. If we look at something like harp seals, we know they have this good general seasonal migration that goes north and south. However, we’re seeing that change. We’re seeing increased usage of fresh water areas and longer residency times which changes how we do those consumption estimates.
At the same time, we have a coarse idea of what these animals are eating on one side of where they live but not on the other side. The same is true for grey seals. Some of the evidence that’s been presented suggests little utilization of the Bay of Fundy. I was down on Brier Island over the weekend and I counted 40 big bull seals sitting in Pond Cove Beach. We don’t have that information to translate into the scientific realm — and this was the point Ms. Boudreau and Ms. Ramsay were bringing forward — but this information is being collected. We just need to have it included in assessing how we’re assessing the overall impacts of the beast.
In terms of the competency of the science community within DFO, it has been greatly invested in over the last 5 to 10 years. A lot of new staff have been added, but these are skills, as you are well aware, that don’t develop overnight. It takes time to become skilled to do these assessments and a willingness to pursue some of these questions being asked.
We’re dealing with somewhat of a dearth of information and conclusions drawn a bit beyond the information available to support them, but there’s certainly the expertise within the department to do it, provided appropriate investment was made to collect those missing data gaps to inform those conclusions to be drawn.
Please, feel free to request an expansion if you’d like, but thank you for the opportunity.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much for that. That was helpful. If I understand you correctly, we know that you can’t do sophisticated modelling if you don’t have the inputs you need to use for that modelling. If I understand what you’re saying, one of the areas that is lacking is the depth and degree of the inputs that are needed to do this work because the data that is currently being collected by fishers does not seem to be making an impact in the work that’s being done. Did I get that right?
Mr. Vascotto: That is exactly it. If the harvesting community is going to provide information to support this work by DFO, we have to know that the information that’s being provided is of sufficient rigour and will be used.
Ms. Ramsay having her fleet members go out to record this information and add it as a comment is not very productive. We need to know the questions being asked and how that data ties in so that we can deliver it. I think you’ve got it.
Senator Francis: Thank you to the witnesses for being here. This is for anyone who would like to answer.
In your view, is Indigenous knowledge and science used by DFO to guide their decisions on seal management and development? Also, how are Indigenous people involved in your task force and how do they help shape your report?
Mr. Hardy: We did have an Indigenous member on our task team, Jamie Snook, from Goose Bay, from the Nunatsiavut community. Jamie was integral to providing information from the Indigenous people he represents. I am Indigenous as well. I’m a member of the NunatuKavut community in southern Labrador.
Over the past decade, I think DFO, along with other government organizations, are interacting more with the Indigenous community and providing more opportunity to have some say, in this case, in fisheries management. Can there be more? Absolutely.
As for the previous questions, this is one of the things that we wanted to see, not only from an Indigenous community but also from the fishing community — that is, utilizing the resources that are there to provide more information, more data and to collect more samples at different times of the year, not at preset times and preset locations, which has been the case.
Ms. Boudreau: Culturally and historically, our Indigenous communities have utilized the various species of seals for everything — from their clothes, to their food, to their economic viability and sustainability. Other coastal communities in all of Atlantic Canada, and even on the B.C. coast, have utilized this species.
I don’t think that our federal and provincial governments have either explored or appreciated this cultural and historic involvement. That should be promoted. It should be celebrated. It’s also a massive resource that could sustain many of our communities, whether they’re Indigenous or not. Definitely, historically, the Indigenous communities have developed the harvesting plans and tools.
I’m at a loss to explain why the federal government and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans specifically haven’t reached out to those communities to get a better understanding of the seal populations, their diets, their movements, their range and the uses of this particular species.
I also think that particular current policies and agreements of our federal government, like the Marine Mammal Regulations, have set us back globally and internationally. There’s a perception that all marine mammals need to be protected when it’s a resource. Some of those marine mammals are a resource that, culturally and historically, our Indigenous communities have always harvested and harvested very sustainably.
We need to take a very hard look at the perception of the seal and sealing industry in Canada and start to promote it for what it is. It is a very rich resource. Thank you.
Senator Francis: Thank you for that. Would you have a list of Indigenous communities your task force has consulted with or reached out to?
Ms. Boudreau: I myself do not, but I do believe they are listed in the report — in the appendices. Also, there are some written and email comments that were passed on to the committee from our Indigenous communities and organizations.
I would say that others would be able to respond better to that. I apologize that I don’t have that information in front of me.
The Chair: We’ll follow up with the task force and ask for that information.
Senator Cordy: Thanks to all of you. I’m a new member of the Fisheries Committee, and you’ve certainly provided a tremendous amount of information. You’ve all been very forthright in your answers to the questions that have been asked.
Mr. Hardy, it was interesting that you noted that it’s the thirtieth anniversary of the cod moratorium, yet cod stocks are not much higher, if at all. They certainly remain low, and there’s a definite increase in the seal population. Many of us remember John Crosbie making that speech in St. John’s, Newfoundland. I wouldn’t have wanted to be the fisheries minister at that time, but he did so in his very colourful way. However, here we are in 2022, and things haven’t changed. The seal population is growing significantly.
One of you stated that the data collected by fishers is not making an impact. Do we have the right data for making this information? Ms. Boudreau, you said we’re spending a lot of time counting seals, and we’ve been doing that for a long time, but still the cod populations are not going up while the seal populations are. Are we getting the right data? Are we getting full data? I’ve heard that we’re not using data coming from those who know most about what’s happening on the waters, the fishers of Atlantic Canada — and of all of Canada, for that matter.
Could you comment on whether or not the data that we have is full and whether or not we are actually collecting and using the right data in making these decisions?
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for the question. I think that collecting defendable, credible data sets, particularly on the diet and range of both seal species, would necessitate better communication and better understanding between the fishermen on the water and the scientists that are going to be using this data. We have not yet got the science world to sit down and have a discussion with industry as to what data sets they would require. What’s the methodology you would like us to use? Can we have a discussion about that?
We have suggestions for that, but the conversation has yet to be started. That seems to be the biggest barrier. The data sets that are collected to date are when our biologists or scientists can access the seal population, either when they’re pupping on Sable Island or when they’re on the ice. Our harvesters are on the water all year and all over Atlantic Canada. We see the full range of the seals on the water every day. We see the changes they’re making. They’re now pupping up in the tree lines because there’s no room on Sable Island. They’re eating their way down the food chain.
The movement of the grey seal herd from the Eastern Scotian Shelf to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Gulf of Maine is probably a direct result of the fact that we don’t have anything to feed them. They’ve eaten us out of house and home. But that’s not been documented. That’s the discussion that needs to happen before we can move forward on accurate and credible data sets.
I hope that answers your question.
Senator Cordy: Would anybody else like to comment on that?
Mr. Hardy: In relation to harp seals and the harp seal diet sampling plan, it’s been very repetitive since the moratorium. The same fishers are used in the same locations at the same time of year. I give you the example that, for the most part, it takes place in the late fall and early winter months on the east coast of Newfoundland. Seal stomachs would be taken from the harp seals. They’re brought ashore by the fishermen. In certain instances, the stomachs sit in their boats or on the wharves for two months before they are collected by DFO. At that time of the year, we can’t expect to find much in the way of cod or capelin, for example — capelin being a primary species eaten by seals. They’re not there. So if you’re sampling inshore at that time of the year, you will not find capelin in the diet. So we do not have enough data.
The other thing I could comment on is that I’ve recently seen a report outlining all the stomach sampling that’s been done for the past 20 years. Some of the samples taken in 2017 have yet to be analyzed. With the problems we have in our fishery and all the different topics and discussions we’ve had on seals over the years, there’s no way in the world we can accept samples being around since 2017 and not being analyzed.
Mr. Vascotto: What is the question that we’re asking and how can we generate the right data to answer that question? Where we’re at now is that conclusions are being drawn that do not necessarily have the appropriate information to support them. Mr. Hardy has produced an excellent example.
You have most of the seal herd that lives here, and the same is happening over on the Eastern Scotian Shelf. It’s just one of those things in which we’re trying to make sure the right questions are asked and the right information is available for the answers we need.
Senator Cordy: Thank you for the detailed answers you have given. Last week, when we met with department officials, they told us that one of the things they’re working on is markets for seals. What are the markets for seals? Certainly, we’ve had a lot of very high-profile people out on the ice floes, which they shouldn’t have been on, touching seals, which they shouldn’t have been doing, and pretending seal pups were being killed when that’s against the law. So how are the markets around the world for seals? Is there enough being done for that?
Mr. Vascotto: Thank you for the question. I will be completely honest that I have limited understanding of the market for seal products. I would defer to Mr. Hardy. He is very well informed on this, so I would ask that he provide an answer.
Mr. Hardy: Marketing seals is very difficult, as one could imagine, so hats off to the few people who remain in the industry for trying to utilize the seal. I guess at this point, as an industry and as a country, we’re trying to promote the harvesting of seal with full utilization. That means providing products from the skin, the fat and the meat.
The skin business has been around for about 100 years and it continues to be viable. Many countries have imposed significant market restrictions. Ms. Boudreau has alluded to the U.S. Marine Mammal Protection Act and other pieces of legislation that prevent the import of any type of seal products into certain countries.
I was on a call earlier where the industry said it’s a key component of what needs to be done. Not only DFO but all departments in the federal government, including Global Affairs Canada, have to support and, through their trade partners, develop and open markets for seals. Seal meat is probably the most nutritious meat you can consume. Everyone knows that the omega-3 produced from the oil is the best omega-3 possible. It has an additional omega-3 fatty acid and is naturally high in the percentage. It doesn’t have to be concentrated like other oils. The garments produced from seals are natural. They are not plastic. They are sustainable and probably more environmentally friendly than a lot of the clothing we wear today. Our governments, both provincially and federally, must sit down with industry and find markets.
Over the past few years, I have been focused on producing a natural health food product which could be exported to countries with starving people. There are hundreds of millions of people starving in the world every year, and we have a huge resource off both coasts. We could be utilizing seal in the form of a nutritious dry protein powder. If we did that, we would be doing some good for the world population while, at the same time, allowing our struggling fish stocks to recover.
Senator Cordy: When John Efford was on Parliament Hill, he used to take great pride in wearing his sealskin jacket to every event in the wintertime. If he was travelling to Europe, it was definitely what he wore. Thank you to all of you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you to our witnesses. I was curious to find out from all of you what your feelings might be about the upcoming Seal Summit. We have had some sketchy information as to what the topics and speakers might be. A recent press release from SaltWire indicates that the federal government is:
. . . committed to exploring market development opportunities for Canadian seal products, while respecting the latest scientific advice and ensuring the seal harvest is sustainable and humane.
That sounds like a repetitive commentary.
Do you feel that a summit such as this might be a key driver in ensuring that we respond to some of the critical issues you’ve raised? I’m from a community where sealing is a significant part of our culture. The impact has been very real on my community. How would you envisage this Seal Summit making a real difference? Will it be yet another cynicism that individuals will look back at?
Mr. Hardy: We included the Seal Summit or forum but, in hindsight, I think we all agree there were a lot more important recommendations contained in the report. With that said, you have to start somewhere, and I guess DFO is looking at the summit right now. I sent some information along where, over the past 30 years, there have been numerous summits, time and time again, by the federal government, and although recommendations are coming out, there has been no action. Hopefully, it will be different this time. We’ll be monitoring to make sure that the summit and any recommendations from it are carried out. It won’t just sit on the shelf.
Ms. Ramsay: I just received some of the information on the summit. Similarly, I’m interested to hear more on the agenda and who will be coming and who will be presenting.
Maybe I’ll throw it back to Recommendation No. 7 on our task team outline, where we talked about having a forum. We have discussed this among the task force different times, but the whole idea around the forum was to foster a collegial environment where respectful and action-oriented discussions would be held between experts in the industry, research and stakeholders. The objectives of the forum at that time were to overcome seal science gaps. Those were all the things we have talked about today, for example, for important commercial species and ecologically important stocks, and to improve the use of industry information and involvement of seal science research assessments and management.
The discussion we had about getting together really circled around that type of forum and including an independent chair because of the divisiveness there currently is within the science world. There are many more layers involved in the summit. Again, I’m not sure as to what it all entails, but I think there was some initial discussion among us to be able to all get together to have those discussions, and whether the summit is what will push that along and continue annual collaborations or annual times to bring all those questions forward again.
I spoke earlier about the different advisory committees and about this coming up time and time again — we have this issue or seals have been identified as having an impact — and it wouldn’t leave the advisory. The idea of moving to something different on an annual basis was to know that information was going to continue and that we could look at ways where various groups would be able to contribute to that data.
I would highlight that while not knowing enough about the format of the summit to be able to touch upon what the summit will end up concluding.
Ms. Boudreau: It is very difficult for any of us here on the panel to respond to your question, Senator Ravalia, because we were left out of the conversation on the development of the Seal Summit. I’m not aware of anyone in industry, including the seal task team, who have been — and I hate this word — consulted or asked for input on the development of the Seal Summit. What are the goals? What is the vision? What is the purpose of the Seal Summit? It was one of our recommendations, but we have no affirmation from anyone at the department to lead us to believe that they are carrying out a Seal Summit in the manner that it was recommended.
I apologize for not being able to answer your question with more detail, but we really do not have any detail on the Seal Summit. I see that as a continuation of the relationship that we have between the department and industry on the whole seal topic. Thank you for the question. It is a very good one.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Boudreau.
Senator Ravalia: I have a follow-up in a slightly different direction. I wonder whether your organization has had any dialogue with countries that seem to have managed their seal populations particularly well, like Norway and Iceland, as examples. Have you had any dialogue with those countries and their scientists about the manner in which they’ve managed their seal populations? If not, is that a possible opportunity to explore? Thank you.
Mr. Hardy: Thank you for the question. As part of the members’ meetings, we had a presentation from a Norwegian scientist. Their findings were slightly different than our own. We talked about that and have shown in the presentation, both in terms of the impact of seals and on the volume eaten. One thing to keep in mind with respect to Norway is that Norway currently doesn’t have a seal problem. There are a couple of million harp seals in the Barents Sea, but they rarely come close to Norway. When the scientist was presenting to us, we had the opportunity to ask questions. I remember asking, “Can you see seals from the coast of Norway?” He shook his head and said, “No, we rarely see seals.”
When they did have a seal invasion, I asked him how many seals he thought were present when the fish stocks were depleted. He answered, “Maybe two million.”
When you look at our case here in Atlantic Canada, both with grey seals and harp seals, as some of the presenters have said, you have to watch where you are walking. You have to watch where you set up your tent in the woods because you might set it up where the seals are. Personally, I know, anywhere along the waterfront, you can see seals all year round. Seals are present in Atlantic Canada in much larger numbers.
Senator, you referenced Iceland. The total combined population of seals in and around Icelandic waters is less than 25,000 for all species. Iceland does not have a seal population problem.
A few weeks back, a group in the Baltic states held a seal conference or a seal forum. Several countries have stated that they have a problem with grey seals, and their population is under 80,000 animals. I believe our grey seals are somewhere between 360,000 and 400,000 right now.
These countries, while they do recognize the impact of seals and the problems with other fish species, they do not have the seal population that we do. Canada as a country is very quiet. We are not going to these other areas, like the West Coast of the U.S., which has a big problem with sea lions, and more and more now with grey seals on the Eastern Seaboard. We need to form alliances with these other countries and say, “Look, we have the largest seal population, and we, sure as God, here in Atlantic Canada, have the biggest problem.” Thank you for the question.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you to all of the witnesses here today. I have a quick follow-up question to the points raised previously about the Seal Summit; I believe it is on November 8 and 9. I know a number of members of this committee have a strong interest in being there. I wanted to parse the question to you about the contact and communications you’ve had with DFO. To the knowledge of our witnesses here today, have your communications reached the minister or the minister’s staff, for example, such as the chief of staff? Do you know that? Or have your communications been primarily at the level of officials within the ministry?
Mr. Vascotto: Thank you for the question. When we think about this, we did present the report to the minister. There was a short session where the report was presented shortly before it was released to the public. Since then, at least from my personal seat, there has been no communication on this topic with that officer or with those staff. I can’t speak for anybody else on this panel right now. I do believe there was some contact with one of the co-chairs of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team — the industry co-chair, as I call him — Glenn Blackwood. I believe he recently had communication with the minister regarding attendance at the Seal Summit. Beyond that, to my knowledge, there has been very restricted interaction. Thank you.
Senator McPhedran: I would like to again parse some previous questions to you about the decline in the cod fishery and the impact of seals on that. Are we looking only at the actual consumption of the fish as being a primary cause of the impact of seals? In the report, for example, there was reference to death as a result of belly biting where the fish is not necessarily consumed but it dies anyway.
The large numbers of the seal population that you have helped us understand this morning cause me to wonder whether there’s also a displacement of the actual habitat for the fish. Are we looking at the impact, for example, of seal excretions? What is the difference between migration and what you see in terms of the stock? What is the impact on reproduction for the fish? I wonder if you could go into a little more detail for us on that.
Mr. Hardy: You referenced belly biting. Seals are very smart animals. They don’t eat the bony part of the fish. They attack the stomach because of the liver and the roe which has a lot more energy and fat. If you look at the stomach analysis reporting, DFO, even to this day, looks for the hard parts of the fish prey. The hard parts of the fish they are referring to are fish ears, which are contained in the fish head. If you are studying the stomachs of seals and looking for fish ears, you’re rarely going to see that. As I’ve shown in numerous photos, we know that seals don’t target the heads. Seals will eat many, many bellies but rarely eat a whole fish unless the fish is small enough for them to consume whole. Thank you.
Mr. Vascotto: Thank you very much for the question. As you can tell, this is one of the issues we have discussed at length. We have had a lot of deep dives on this. I really wanted to break this up into a couple of different areas. You are right; you have that direct impact which is basically a seal eating a cod or a haddock or pollock or white hake. We know that can happen. We see that. But then there’s also that indirect impact. Cod eat herring, capelin and mackerel. If those populations are being impacted because of increased seal predation, that impairs the recovery of the cod or herring stock because it just doesn’t have any food to feed on.
This is one of the trends we seem to be seeing on the Scotian Shelf. The cod grows to a certain point and then it seems to have a hard time growing any bigger because the bigger diet items onto which they used to shift are no longer sufficiently abundant in the ecosystem to furnish that growth.
Then you can look at the other indirect effect, to which you have referred, which is displacement. If you’re a fish that’s swimming around and you go to this certain area which, unfortunately, belongs to someone else or is off on the edge, you will find yourself at a high risk of predation by a seal predator. So you will choose not to go there. So you will put yourself in a poor environment. You will not have the ability to grow or reproduce. Your condition and how thick they are is going to get thinner and thinner, and you are going to lose that overall productivity metric.
When we talk about the impacts of seals, we are not talking only about the direct impacts; we’re talking about that bigger ecosystem impact. That’s what you need that better data to tell you about.
We are not just talking about a single diet item — “We opened up the stomach and said there are 32 snow crabs in there, a couple of Arctic cod, and that’s it.” That’s not the story we want to tell. We would like to sell the story of, “Capelin had a really good year this year and a really bad year the next year.” A seal being an opportunistic predator will eat whatever’s out there. Their impact on cod one year might be very significant, but their impact on capelin the next year might be even more so. That’s going to directly impact the cod productivity and that will prevent cod populations or other groundfish stocks like white hake, et cetera, from building.
I am happy to answer more questions. I could go on for a while.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you.
Ms. Boudreau: Thank you for the question. This one is near and dear to my heart — not in relation to cod but our pelagics, the mackerel specifically.
You mentioned migration patterns, and that’s what my response will speak to. We have, in the spring of the year, the mackerel population migrating from the Gulf of Maine. They are spawning fish; they are full of spawn. They are coming up along the eastern seaboard along the coastline of Nova Scotia and trying to get into the Gulf of St. Lawrence to spawn, feed and fatten up. Then they proceed to Newfoundland and back down along the Eastern Seaboard in the fall.
But over the past 10 years specifically, the mackerel migration up from the Eastern Seaboard has not come to the shores of Nova Scotia as it did historically. What has changed over the last 10 or 15 years is that when they come from the Gulf of Maine, they are picked up by a massive herd of grey seals that are continually feeding on these mackerel that are in the reproductive phase. They are met with a wall of seals. If I were a cat and I were coming into a room full of 15 dogs, I’m sorry, but I would not choose that door that they are standing in front of.
The mackerel have chosen that route for a specific reason. Either they are resting along the coastline or maybe it’s the climate. The ecosystem that’s present along the Nova Scotia coastline might be what that mackerel needs to either rejuvenate itself or to save energy. It is closer to shore. The water temperatures are a little warmer. The mackerel is not required to keep itself at a certain temperature.
But now they are pushed further and further offshore by this massive seal herd. What’s the effect of that on the mackerel population? We would like to have that conversation with our seal biologists. We would like to have that conversation with our mackerel biologists. But we can’t get a statement from the seal biologists stating that mackerel is part of the diet, because we only look at them when they are pupping on Sable Island. They aren’t eating mackerel then.
So it is very frustrating, as I’m sure you can tell. That conversation is long overdue. Unless we can look at seals as a part and as affecting the total ecosystem and that food web, we are missing something huge.
All the harvesters are off the water; no one is allowed to harvest mackerel, but we still don’t know what the effects of those other predators are, because nobody is going to look at them. We were the only thing that was factored into the mortality of mackerel. It is very similar to cod. Thank you so much for the question.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you again to the witnesses. Although we are still early in our study, I’m very concerned about what I have heard today. In addition to the report of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team, I have heard many concerns about the transparency and the appropriateness of the evidence that is being used to guide decision and policy-making. Those are two huge things.
Would you consider it to be useful for us to recommend that, at a specific time — perhaps a couple of years — that an independent scientific review that would include international experts be struck to critically evaluate revised DFO scientific seal studies plan, looking at the type, nature, quality of the data collected, methodologies used and the analytics that are applied?
I’m concerned that some of these good recommendations that have been made about the necessity to improve the science — from my perspective, they are good, but there are likely others. I’m also concerned that without a point in time and an independent scientific review of what has happened, there may not be the kind of movement on these recommendations that one would wish to have.
Mr. Hardy: It is a very good question. I believe that may be alluded to in the report in terms of outside scientific participation.
So absolutely, in terms of reviewing the report and reviewing recommendations going forward, and the science going forward, I think it would be a great idea, possibly not only for seals but various fisheries’ science.
You discussed transparency. That is one of the biggest criticisms — that and communication — that we had as a task team. With our internal discussions, it continually came up.
I’ll give you an example. About halfway through our report and the meetings, all of us on the committee were floored to learn that there was a technical briefing taking place in St. John’s on harp seals. We did not get any communication on it. As task team members, our emails and our phones lit up, because we were expected to be knowledgeable on this and to know that, if some reporting was taking place and we were working on seal recommendations, we would be kept in the loop. We weren’t.
So that is just another example of a lack of transparency. The members here today have discussed how the development of the Seal Summit has not included a lot of people here or, more importantly, in industry. There are issues with that.
I will say that I was contacted and I did have a short phone call with one individual, but that was the extent of it. Thank you.
Senator Kutcher: Are there any other comments about that potential suggestion from the committee that would be useful?
Mr. Vascotto: Any time that you are advocating for an external review of what has been done, it is generally a good thing. It opens up the books. You can take a look at what was operating under the hood.
I would also suggest that some of the conclusions that are being drawn from that information be added to that list.
It is not just about the evidence and the analytics being undertaking but also about that evidence is being interpreted and used. I think that would be a valuable piece to add to it.
It was an excellent question. Thank you.
Ms. Boudreau: On the recommendation or the question regarding an independent review, it would be very useful, but I would suggest that it needs to include not just the existing information. The task force was set to identify gaps in the information. I think that if we review what’s been done to date, it’s been done very well. We count so well in this country. We are the best counters. We know so much about the reproduction of the seal populations. We know so much about the seal biology, but we know nothing about the diets, the range and the effects of the pinnipeds in the ecosystem. Those data sets are not there to review.
In asking for a review, I think that’s excellent, but I think we’ve reviewed what’s missing. Now we need to see how we can go forward and incorporate these gaps into the current information. Thank you so much for the question.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you to all those who responded. That’s exactly what I meant when I said a critical evaluation of what the revised scientific study would be following a report. That’s it exactly; you nailed all the different components that need to be done. Thanks.
The Chair: In Recommendation No. 9, the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team suggests that Fisheries and Oceans improve its seal depredation research. What exactly is that?
Mr. Hardy: Well, there have been more and more reports from fishers from coast to coast on the impacts of seals on fishing gear and with fish that are being taken from gear. No matter what the fish species, if there are seals around, they’re opportunistic, like Mr. Vascotto said earlier. If there are fish in nets or fish on long lines, then there are more and more instances of impacts from seals.
I’ll speak from my experience on the Labrador coast in the summertime where there’s a food fishery for salmon. Every so often when fishers go out to check their nets, there is just the head of the fish that is left. In addition to loss of the fish, there’s a lot of damage to gear.
In terms of the commercial fishery, fishermen are reluctant to report this because if you have an impact of a lot of fish being destroyed, there is the chance that DFO might take some action to shut the fishery down or something like that. A lot of times there’s not much reporting on depredation.
I guess the recommendation would be to study it further and to get greater impact from fishers. Thank you for the question.
Senator Busson: I have two quick questions. The first question, I believe, is for Mr. Hardy.
You mentioned, Mr. Hardy, the statistics on the seal populations in Iceland and in Norway and that they were quite a bit lower than the populations that we deal with here in Canada. Do you know if that’s somewhat or partially a result of seal management, or is it just luck of the draw that the ecosystem there has a different story with regard to the seals? Do they manage that, or is it just good luck rather than good planning?
Mr. Hardy: I’m going to say the latter and that it is good luck. I guess it’s the habitat. The whole world is experiencing climate change. In the case of Norway, they haven’t seen the ice floes come down their coastlines. The harp seals in particular, which has the largest population over there, they’re not coming to the coast or close to Norway, so they don’t see the impact that we do here.
In our case, we’ve been watching less and less ice over the years. We have a gulf herd of harps, and we also have the front herd. Fewer harp seals are migrating in the spring up to the gulf. In the case of Newfoundland and Labrador, while in some recent years we’ve seen less ice, we still have ice. I included a copy of the video footage today in the helicopter flyover for you. Last spring we had good ice coverage, and this was just a couple of miles off the shoreline. As far as we could see, for tens and tens of miles, was seals.
It is a bit of luck of the draw, as you said. In Iceland, commercially, they don’t hunt seals. There is the odd one taken for food use, but they don’t have the population problem that we do here. In places where seals are more resident, there are more and more countries that have an issue with seals because of the impact on their fish stocks. Thank you.
Senator Busson: You had also mentioned that there was data about sea lions on the West Coast. I understand you’re all experts from your experience, et cetera, on the East Coast. Does anyone have any data or any information around the predation data for any part of the West Coast?
Mr. Hardy: While they were not included in our task team, I’ve personally had a lot of communication with people on the West Coast. The Pacific Balance Pinniped Society is very concerned about the impact of seals and sea lions on salmon stocks. In certain cases, the Indigenous groups, along with their own biologists, have done studies. They have very detailed information available that shows the impact of pinnipeds on their salmon stock and other resources there.
We did have a presentation here in Atlantic Canada on salmon. It was just one study, and it was very limited. Very few seals were sampled. Yet, in the reporting, the scientists were saying that seals don’t have much of an impact on Atlantic salmon stocks.
I’ve been crying for years to go into a river, in one case in particular, the Grand Codroy River on the West Coast, which was once one of the greatest Atlantic salmon rivers in all of Canada. There’s a resident harbour seal population there now of upwards of 100 animals, and they’re there for 9 or 10 months in fresh water, 8 to 10 kilometres inland. I can send hundreds of photos showing these seals. They’re there year-round. I want someone to go in and take a sample of those seals and see what they are eating, because they cannot stay there as long as they do without eating. That river, like a lot of other rivers, doesn’t have many fish left.
The Chair: I’ll go back to Senator Cordy’s comments about our former minister John Efford, who said they’re certainly not eating chicken. Whatever they’re eating.
I want to thank our witnesses this morning. There was some great information. Certainly, the passion you have expressed here this morning in regards to this industry is something we all will hopefully take on as we continue with our study. We thank you for your work as members of the task force. Hopefully, the summit in St. John’s will be a stepping stone towards addressing some more of the recommendations that you’ve put forward.
If, after today, you feel there was information you didn’t have an opportunity to give us, feel free to contact our clerk with that information. We reserve the right somewhere down the road, as we continue on with our study, to maybe have you back someday to see where we’re at with our own work.
On behalf of the committee members, I want to thank you for your time here this morning and certainly for the information you’ve given us. We really appreciate it.
Folks, before I hit the gavel, I want to remind the steering committee members to hang around for a few moments so we can have a quick chat with the analysts.
I’d like to remind honourable senators that if we have any suggestions for witnesses for future meetings that we try to get them to the clerk and analysts by Tuesday of next week, as we’re trying to finalize our next group of meetings. I notice some have put forward some names. I know we’ve picked up a couple of suggestions already here this morning from our witnesses with regards to the West Coast. We’ll follow up on those, but if anyone else has any other potential witnesses, please forward them to the clerk by Tuesday of next week.
Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)