THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 3, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 9:02 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning. My name is Fabian Manning. I am a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I have the pleasure to chair this committee.
Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue.
I would like to take a few moments and ask the members of our committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn, senator from New Brunswick.
Senator Busson: Bev Busson, senator from British Columbia.
Senator Francis: Senator Brian Francis, Epekwitk/P.E.I.
Senator Ataullahjan: Senator Salma Ataullahjan, Toronto, Ontario.
Senator Ravalia: Senator Mohamed Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Kutcher: Stan Kutcher, Nova Scotia.
The Chair: Thank you, senators.
Before asking and answering any of our questions, I would like to ask members in the room to please refrain from leaning in too close to your microphones, or remove your earpiece while doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively staff in the room.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to examine and report upon Canada’s seal populations and their effects on Canada’s fisheries.
Today, pursuant to that mandate, the committee will hear from Margaret Buist, Vice-President, Policy, Planning, Communications and Northern Projects Management Office, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency. From the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, we also welcome Karen Skinner, Vice-President, Newfoundland and Labrador Region. For full disclosure, I worked with Karen in the past on many projects in Newfoundland and Labrador. It’s great to see her here this morning. With her are David Boland, Director General, Regional Operations, Newfoundland and Labrador; and Rob Mallay, Acting Director, Enterprise Development.
On behalf of the members of our committee, I thank you for being here this morning. Before we go to opening remarks, I would like to take the opportunity for our senator who was just running a little bit late this morning to introduce herself.
Senator Cordy: I was at another meeting. I’m Jane Cordy, a senator from Nova Scotia. It’s great to be here.
The Chair: They always say I’m a half-an-hour late because I’m from Newfoundland, but we’ll let that go.
I understand that Ms. Buist has opening remarks, to be followed by Ms. Skinner. We’ll have those first and then go to senators for questions.
Margaret Buist, Vice-President, Policy, Planning, Communications and Northern Projects Management Office, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency: Thank you, chair and senators.
[Translation]
CanNor is responsible for promoting the economic development of the territories. We work closely with companies, innovators and communities in the North to stimulate economic growth, creating more well-paid jobs for middle-class Canadians.
[English]
CanNor’s investments are guided by our pan-territorial growth strategy, which highlights four interrelated priorities: resource development, economic infrastructure, a skilled workforce, and innovation and diversification.
[Translation]
This pan-territorial growth strategy is consistent with the objectives of Canada’s Arctic and Northern Policy Framework, which guides federal government investments and activities until 2030 to create a future in which the peoples of the Arctic and the North are prosperous, strong and secure.
[English]
CanNor is here today to discuss the sealing economy in the Arctic, which has been interwoven with Inuit tradition and culture for many generations.
[Translation]
Seal products are a cornerstone of Nunavut’s economy and a valuable source of food and economic potential for the Inuit.
[English]
CanNor supports territorial sealing economies by working with federal departments and partners, including the government of Nunavut, and Inuit organizations and businesses, to invest in research, marketing and skills training.
[Translation]
For example, CanNor participated in the certification and market access program for seals, which ran from 2015 to 2020. CanNor administered the “market access” component of the program, investing close to $340,000 in Nunavut.
[English]
Since 2015, to complement this investment, CanNor has invested $4.3 million to its regular programming to support Nunavut’s fisheries, including sealing. For example, to help diversify the economy, CanNor is helping the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation, an Inuit economic development group, to assess the feasibility of developing an omega-3 extraction industry using harvested ringed seal blubber within Nunavut through a $112,000 contribution. CanNor has also provided the government of Nunavut with over $3.8 million to advance Nunavut fisheries and sealing economies, including support for research and monitoring.
[Translation]
CanNor also strives to support industries related to the seal hunt by funding projects related to the food security and culture sectors.
[English]
For example, funding has supported Nunavut seal harvesters and crafters through workshops on pelt handling, fur handling and sewing.
I would be happy to answer any questions that you have.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Buist. I understand that Ms. Skinner has some opening remarks also. Ms. Skinner, you have the floor.
Karen Skinner, Vice-President, Newfoundland and Labrador Region, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency: Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable senators. Thank you for the invitation to appear here today. I am joined by my colleagues Dave Boland, Director General, Regional Operations; and Rob Mallay, Acting Director, Enterprise Development. We are joining you today from St. John’s. We respectfully acknowledge the land on which we gather as the ancestral homelands of the Beothuk, whose culture has been lost forever and can never be recovered.
We also acknowledge the island of Newfoundland as the unceded, traditional territory of the Beothuk and the Mi’kmaq, and we acknowledge Labrador as the traditional and ancestral homelands of the Innu of Nitassinan, the Inuit of Nunatsiavut and the Inuit of NunatuKavut. Although each community is distinct, we all share a desire to chart a way forward together toward reconciliation.
I’m pleased to be here today to discuss the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency’s role in the seal industry in Atlantic Canada. For more than 35 years, ACOA has been investing in Atlantic Canadian entrepreneurs, businesses and communities. The agency works to create opportunities for growth by helping businesses become more competitive, innovative and productive; by helping communities develop and diversify their economies; and by championing the strength of Atlantic Canada. Through our programs and our partnerships with other federal departments, provincial and municipal governments, Indigenous organizations, academia and non-government organizations, ACOA is well positioned to help our region be economically diverse, innovative, competitive and resilient.
One of our greatest strengths is our region-wide presence, with employees in over 30 communities, from larger cities to smaller rural, coastal and remote towns. The agency works closely with its partners to identify priorities and opportunities to maximize the potential of our region in a strategic and sustainable manner.
Furthermore, our on-the-ground presence enables us to provide effective, targeted advice and support that helps businesses start up, scale up, diversify and innovate. The agency also helps businesses access supply chain opportunities and begin or increase exporting in domestic and international markets.
Specific to the sealing industry, over a 10-year period, from 2012 to 2022, ACOA has invested $1.7 million toward 17 projects. These projects have focused on marketing seal products domestically and internationally, new product development and support for the tourism and artisan industries. We will continue to work with eligible companies and not-for-profit organizations that identify opportunities to develop and market seal-based products to help support economic activity in our region’s coastal communities.
Our efforts will be focused on assisting small- and medium-sized enterprises and complementing the work of other federal departments and agencies, like Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
Thank you for this opportunity to talk about ACOA’s role in the seal industry in Atlantic Canada. This concludes my opening remarks. My colleagues and I would be pleased to take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Skinner. Thank you, Ms. Buist. We will go to the deputy chair of this committee for our first question, Senator Busson.
Senator Busson: Thank you both for being here. It is a very interesting topic. The issue around marketing seal products is certainly something that we are very interested in our study around the sealing industry.
You both mentioned and certainly focused on words like “innovation” and “export markets,” et cetera. I wonder if either one of you or both of you could talk about the extent to which research in your agencies has focused on the opportunity to supply seal protein as a source of food, especially in countries where food security is certainly a looming threat to populations.
Ms. Skinner: Thank you for the question, senator. We have supported and continue to support companies that are interested in export markets. The companies that we work with in the Atlantic region have been focused on products around seal oil and seal meat, either for human or non-human consumption. We have assisted with specific marketing projects. Our initiatives are very firm specific.
Because of global competitive challenges since the pandemic but particularly around seal products, access to markets has been challenging. There is the ban in the EU and, of course, trading with our largest partner to the south in the U.S., there is an import ban there as well. We continue to work with clients on the ground in the Atlantic region as they develop marketing plans to get into particular markets.
Senator Busson: Thank you. Does your colleague have anything to add?
Ms. Buist: Yes. I am happy to add to that. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have funded both the Government of Nunavut and Inuit organizations to do research and marketing activities for seal products, including the omega-3 oils and the pelts.
Also, in terms of food security issues, we have funded $250,000 toward strengthening food harvesting capacity in communities like Clyde River in Nunavut and the Qikiqtani Food Sovereignty Implementation Solution project, another $250,000 to establish community-based storage facilities.
I would say the focus in Nunavut is more internal to Nunavut food security as opposed to food export, but it is certainly something that is on their radar as well.
Senator Busson: Thank you. One of the things that we are looking at as we move forward with our study is the potential for a much larger market, I guess if we could address the embargoes in the United States and the EU and in other countries where food security is becoming a much more pervasive issue.
Is it your sense that there might be much larger opportunities with a different perspective?
Ms. Skinner: Maybe I will start, Ms. Buist.
Ms. Buist: Why don’t you start each time, Ms. Skinner. That is fine with me.
Ms. Skinner: That’s okay.
Ms. Buist: Unless it’s about the Arctic.
Ms. Skinner: I will accede to you on several questions.
Thank you for the question, senator. What we’re hearing from industry here is that the market for seal oil is actually where there are seal oil capsules. Seal proteins are where they are actually seeing the bright lights in international markets.
While efforts are ongoing, there is some seal meat that is being exported for human consumption but that market is not as robust right now as the seal oil market.
Ms. Buist: I would add to what Ms. Skinner said. The market has not rebounded. The EU ban, although there is an Indigenous exception, is still felt very much by the sealing industry. I know that we do not have current statistics. Our most recent statistics from the Government of Nunavut are about 10 years old now. Around that time, 40,000 seals were being harvested per year in Nunavut, with a replacement food value of about $5 million for the seal meat, and the seal products back then were about $1 million to the arts and crafts sector.
That has probably increased, but it is still, as you can see from those numbers, not by huge amounts. Some of the research that we are funding is to improve market access by the Government of Nunavut. They are looking at ways to do that, most certainly.
Senator Busson: Thank you.
The Chair: Part of the reason we are conducting the study is to try to see what the opportunities are to develop markets for different parts of the seal, including, as Ms. Skinner touched on, seal oil and other things, but we understand that with the embargoes, it is a very difficult situation.
Ms. Skinner, you mentioned in your remarks the type of supports or programs that ACOA has to offer. What types of supports would you give to a seal harvester if he or she were requesting it, or seal product processors, seal product artisans and seal product exporters? Give us an idea what type of assistance and projects they would be involved in, please. Thank you.
Ms. Skinner: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Within the agency, we do have a suite of programs. We have three core programs. One is the Regional Economic Growth through Innovation program, and the Business Development Program. Both of those are focused on supporting commercial businesses to grow, scale up or to expand their existing operations. We also have a program that is focused on community supports. It is called the Innovative Communities Fund. It helps communities on the ground develop infrastructure to grow industrial sectors in their communities.
We do not deal directly with seal harvesters. Ours is focused on the commercial opportunities more downstream. We would deal with commercial clients who are either processing or looking at developing products. We could do innovation. We help them hire marketing expertise, technical expertise. We can invest in equipment in processing facilities. That is the nature of investment that we would make through our programs.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Skinner. Ms. Buist?
Ms. Buist: We have two primary programs by which we fund both sectors. As you heard me say, the Government of Nunavut economic development corporations and also individuals, mostly focused on small- and medium-sized enterprises. One of them is our IDEANorth program, which is unique to CanNor and funds along the themes that I mentioned from our pan-territorial growth strategy.
Second, we are the only regional development agency, or RDA, with an Indigenous-specific funding program. We also use that program to support Inuit businesses.
Through our assistance with marketing, as I have mentioned, we funded the Government of Nunavut to look at a territory-wide approach to marketing seals, and we fund individual businesses. For example, there is quite a bit of interest in the burgeoning arts and crafts market using seal pelts. We have funded individuals to come down to the Northern Lights Conference, which is a huge conference held in Ottawa each winter, to market their materials and to come together to talk about how to market their materials internationally.
It is from that micro-level to the larger level that we provide our funding support.
The Chair: Thank you. I have attended that conference, and the quality of what is brought forward with regard to harvest is second to none. Hopefully, we can build on that as well.
I would like to welcome Senator McPhedran, who has just joined us, from Manitoba.
Senator Cordy: My questions are a follow-up to the chair’s questions.
At ACOA, you said that your initiatives are firm specific. Do you mean “firm” as in company-specific, that you give money out to companies that would be dealing with seal products?
Ms. Skinner: Yes, that is correct.
Senator Cordy: Following up on the comments of the chair, we heard from others that the seal meat industry has not rebounded and that it is seal oil products which seem to be the thing that we can market best.
Are there recommendations or suggestions to us, as a committee, when we are writing our report that the government provide more funding to research what other markets for seal products there may be, other than meat, which has not rebounded, but other than seal oil products?
Ms. Skinner: I think there is ongoing research that could be done around these types of projects.
As I mentioned, from an ACOA lens, we help companies do that research. I know there are organizations working with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO. For example, the Fur Institute of Canada, the Canadian Sealers Association and the Seals and Sealing Network, or SSN. There are initiatives happening nationally that are trying to position seal products differently in the world.
I think that any additional support that we can provide to help position seal meat products in the world would be helpful for this industry.
Senator Cordy: You said that you support projects with the Department of Fisheries. Does the Department of Fisheries come to you with a planned project and then you provided the funding? Is that how you work? Is that what the relationship is or do you go to the Department of Fisheries and say, “This is something that you should be doing”?
Ms. Skinner: Actually, we have common clients. Some of our clients are actually working with the Department of Fisheries through some of these network partners.
We do not actually fund projects with the Department of Fisheries or vice versa. We have common clients, and we would provide programs more downstream for individual firms. Then Department of Fisheries would have other programs where they engage partners on the ground as well. So there is not actually a crossover. Thank you.
Senator Cordy: Thank you for that clarification.
Ms. Buist, you said that CanNor provides $4.3 million supporting the fisheries, including seal hunting. What percentage of that would, indeed, be for seal hunting?
Ms. Buist: That is a transfer we do through the Government of Nunavut, and it is for their fisheries across the territory. So it would be all types of fisheries and sealing.
We do not specify the amounts of how much for sealing, how much for char, how much for whales. It is a Government of Nunavut-wide funding that supports research, training, improved market access, education, promotional campaigns, working with Nunavut’s tourism industry, for example, to promote the products that artisans create in Nunavut. It is a block transfer to the government, and they decide how they are going to allot it for the various portions of their fishing industry in Nunavut.
Senator Cordy: You also spoke about providing classes or training in pelt handling. Is there a market for seal pelts?
Ms. Buist: There is a growing market for seal pelts. There are still restrictions on exports, but I know that, for example, Global Affairs is working on some projects to improve access to Asian markets for seal pelts and arts. The beautiful things that I’m wearing right now, for example — my seal poppy and my seal broach — are from Nunavut. They are looking at ways to improve the Asian market for seal pelts.
Absolutely, it’s one of their projects working with Global Affairs.
Senator Quinn: Thank you, witnesses, for being here this morning.
I have a few questions for Ms. Buist. You mentioned there is a harvest of 40,000 seals in the North. What is the stock; do you have an idea of how large the seal stock is?
Ms. Buist: That would be a question for Fisheries and Oceans. We would fund businesses and the government to harvest the seals and to sell the products, but we don’t track the stocks.
Senator Quinn: That leads to a question. You have mentioned different things that are done with seals, whether it’s the oils or what-have-you. What’s the supply and demand? In other words, are there companies that would be willing to take more seals to produce their products? Ms. Buist, I’m expecting that, in the North, the Indigenous folks on the ground probably have a good view of what the seal population is doing in a detrimental way, if at all, to the fish stocks. How do you link seal harvesting to those looking for seals that produce products? Are there folks out there who say, “Hey, if we can only have more seals, we can produce more products and become more successful”?
Ms. Buist: Again, I don’t have the figures on the science; that would be DFO. But I can tell you that 90% of all seals harvested in Canada are harvested in Nunavut. So it is an important and going concern for the territory of Nunavut.
Harvesting there continues all year round, and the seal products generate income for remote communities — the pelts, the meat and the oil. So it is an important piece of the fisheries industry in Nunavut.
Senator Quinn: Ms. Skinner, it is the same question with a little bit of a twist: We heard that there’s 7.6 million seals in southern waters, and it was noted by our previous witnesses from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada and I believe they felt that 5 million seals are required for sustainable seal presence. That means there is a 50% excess capacity.
In your work to develop markets, and with the limited seal harvesting, if 90% is done in Nunavut, that means there is not a lot done in the South and yet products are produced. Would that demand for seals help people become more successful, develop more markets, et cetera? The government can assist with the development of markets, but the private-sector folks are the people who are going to make it happen. If they had more seals, would they be able to have a broader market?
Ms. Skinner: From our work with our commercial clients in Atlantic Canada — and I will say the industry is fairly limited here; it’s a fairly small industry — we have not been given any signals from our clients that access to seals, the resource, is problematic. If we could find new markets — if we could help them and they could find new markets — I think the access to the resource is there for them.
Senator Quinn: Do I have time for one more?
The Chair: Go ahead.
Senator Quinn: I want to talk more about the relationship between your agencies, and DFO and GAC. A lot of times, departments work in silos, and they have the occasional crossover. But do you have concentrated strategic discussions about what can be done to have a double effect, if you will, particularly in the South, of controlling seal populations while developing markets and different products? Do you have those strategic discussions?
You are certainly working with the downstream folks, and DFO is more tied to the science and whatnot. They also work on markets, I believe, from what we heard earlier.
How often do you sit down with those folks and have those types of strategic discussions?
Ms. Skinner: Thank you. In the region, we have pretty strong relationships at the level of officials with DFO and the Trade Commissioner Service through Global Affairs Canada, or GAC. I think you’re right when you say that our investments are really downstream, so we would see DFO on the science piece. They would make their analysis and their considerations at that level. As I mentioned earlier, they work with the Fur Institute, for example, and other national networks. Our folks on the ground would get some information and intelligence from those discussions, and that would help us as we’re working with clients. But we work with clients to help them execute on their plans.
Senator Quinn: I just have a last follow-up. For a bit of clarification, how often do you actually sit down face to face or virtually and have those types of strategic discussions? Is it monthly, yearly or every couple years? How does that work?
Ms. Skinner: I can speak from an ACOA Newfoundland and Labrador perspective on this, and I know that our people who work in that sector have ongoing dialogue with their colleagues at DFO in the regional office. As it relates to GAC, if we have clients who are looking to get into particular markets, we would help them path find into GAC; we would take the client to officials in the Trade Commissioner Service if we felt that service would be helpful as they are trying to get into markets.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you to our witnesses.
My first question is for Ms. Skinner. With respect to your investment in sealing, what percentage of your global budget goes directly into aiding the sealing industry?
Also, in terms of applications versus rejections, what is the proportion of the number of individuals you actually accept versus those you do not consider worth supporting?
Ms. Skinner: Thank you for that question.
As I mentioned earlier, from a commercial lens, the sealing industry in Atlantic Canada compared to other industries is quite small, and that is borne out by our investments. We had done 1.7 million over 10 years in Atlantic Canada over 17 projects. ACOA’s average annual budget, depending on initiatives that come in and go out, fluctuates around $250 million a year. So it’s a very small piece.
That’s reflective of the industry itself. In the early 2000s, the landed value of seals was $13 million in Atlantic Canada, and it was $600,000 last year. So it’s a fairly small piece of the investments that we make.
In terms of clients that have been rejected, I don’t have the specific number, but broadly, I’m not aware of any clients we have engaged with that we haven’t been able to support if they fit within the scope of our programs.
Senator Ravalia: As a follow-up, Ms. Skinner, would you be able to give me the demographics of where the money actually goes in terms of rural versus relatively urban versus remote? You talked about the 17 projects. Are they located across Newfoundland, Labrador and through the Maritimes, or is it a specific area where you focus your investments?
Ms. Skinner: The majority of our investments would be in Newfoundland and Labrador, with some in Nova Scotia. I might defer to my colleague, who I think has that list in front of him. So I’ll turn to Mr. Boland.
Senator Ravalia: Or it can be sent to us.
Ms. Skinner: Okay.
The Chair: Do you want to comment, or do you want to send it along to us? It is up to you.
Ms. Skinner: We can send that along.
The Chair: Just forward that to the clerk. Thank you very much.
Senator Ravalia: Do I still have time?
The Chair: Go ahead.
Senator Ravalia: It is for Ms. Buist. You talked about your industry having a local and an export component. Would you be able to tell me how much of the product actually stays in your region versus what portion is actually set up for an export market?
Ms. Buist: As I mentioned, we fund several sources. We fund some economic development organizations, and we also fund the government of Nunavut. They will decide how their funding will go to the various portions of the fish industry.
The majority of the harvesting of the meat from the seals is for internal Nunavut use — community use; it’s for Nunavummiut. The arts community, which is using the pelts, sewing coats and clothing, and making jewellery, is often more export. It can be within Canada; it can be international.
CanNor does not track the numbers that are produced by the businesses or the governments that we fund, or where they export to.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you to the witnesses for taking time out of your days to be with us here.
I want to focus a little bit on food security, which is an emerging problem, globally, and the potential for this industry to have an impact there, particularly in the Indo-Pacific region. We know that India banned seal products in 2018, and Taiwan has a ban on seal products as well.
Has there been any activity that you know of or that your agencies have supported in helping developing markets in the Indo-Pacific region, apart from India and Taiwan?
Ms. Skinner: None that I would be aware of. Clients that we have been dealing with are focused, broadly, on Southeast Asia, but I don’t have any specifics on particular markets as it relates to food security.
Ms. Buist: I would answer the same way. Frankly, in terms of food security, our focus is to fund food security in the North. So we’re looking at projects that are strengthening food harvesting capacity for the North itself as opposed to export.
Senator Kutcher: Okay. To follow-up on Senator Quinn’s question, I’m trying to find out whether there is a strategic focus here that could be used for improving this market. So that’s good to know.
The other part of that is that many of the bans on seal products have been put into place as a result of very coordinated and specific activity by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or PETA. What activities, if any, have your agencies done to bring counterarguments — or factual arguments — to bear that will help put the PETA activities into a more reasonable perspective?
Ms. Buist: I would say that Global Affairs could answer your question more effectively than the economic development agencies. We aren’t in the role of dealing with the politics of the bans. We are working with our clients to look at where they can expand the markets in terms of funding their activities.
The Chair: I see you nodding in approval there, Ms. Skinner.
Ms. Skinner: Yes, I would agree with that. Thank you. I have nothing further to add.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for that. I appreciate that.
I’m getting the uncomfortable feeling that, in this particular area, there seems to be a disconnect between market development, which is a GAC or political aspect of that — which seems to be a GAC component, both in foreign policy and the trade commission — and actually the work that you are able to do to assist Canadians in accessing and developing in those markets. Is that a reasonable thought on my part, or am I way off base here?
Ms. Buist: Thank you for your question.
I would repeat something that Ms. Skinner said earlier: If a potential client comes to us with a project proposal and looking at funding, and they ask for assistance in looking at ways to expand their markets, we would connect them with GAC and do a path-finding process to find the right places to connect them into the federal government, whether it’s Global Affairs or Export Development Canada. We would make that connection for them.
We don’t actually do the marketing. As I said earlier, we might fund them to go to a marketing opportunity, like the Northern Lights Conferences or prospects and developers for other types of clients that we have, but we don’t do the actual marketing. We would make the connections and do the path finding for them.
Senator Kutcher: All right. That’s very helpful.
So if I understand what you are doing — and it sounds like you are doing a good job in what you can do — it’s sort of a more passive and facilitative process as opposed to looking at a strategic way that we might develop a market in an area that you can support.
Ms. Buist: Thank you. It is definitely a facilitative process, where we make the connections within the federal government or with other industries, and territories or provinces that we work with. That would definitely be one of our roles as a regional development agency.
Senator Kutcher: Has there been discussion with each of the four Atlantic provinces about the development of this sector of their export industry, specifically around seals? Has there been a table that Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, P.E.I. and New Brunswick have sat around with ACOA or with your organization to look at how they, as a group, identify potential markets and use provincial marketing capacity for that.
Ms. Skinner: There have certainly been discussions with provincial governments. Again, I would speak to the Newfoundland and Labrador context, but I think this would carry broadly over into Nova Scotia, as well. There are discussions at the level of officials as they are dealing on projects that come in from clients, but I don’t think there has been a coordinated effort to sit down and look at broad industry development with provincial government to federal government — none that I’m aware of.
Senator Kutcher: Great. Thank you very much for that.
The Chair: Just as a follow-up to Senator Kutcher’s questions, the certification and market access program for seals was evaluated by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and a final report was issued in November 2019. The evaluation report explained that the project supported under pillar 3, promotion and branding, were approved by the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, but that she or he at the time consulted a steering committee composed of ACOA, CanNor, Global Affairs and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.
What was the role of your agency on that steering committee, and what were the recommendations that were made to the deputy minister at the time?
Ms. Skinner: I’m going to pass this question to my colleague, Mr. Boland. I think he is more familiar with that program.
David Boland, Director General, Regional Operations, Newfoundland and Labrador, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency: For that program in particular, it was actually an official in our head office in Moncton who coordinated that from an ACOA perspective.
In terms of the actual discussions and decisions around the projects that would have been brought forward under pillar 3, I don’t have that exact detail. I know that the funding allotted to ACOA was incorporated into our regular programs, and we were able to execute grants and contributions under our regular programs in support of the sealing industry.
In terms of the actual mechanisms and recommendations going directly to the DFO deputy minister, I don’t have those specifics.
The Chair: The recommendations that were made to the deputy minister by the subcommittee, are they available to us?
Mr. Boland: I would suggest that’s probably a question for DFO, as they would have been the secretariat in charge of that particular committee.
The Chair: Can you tell us what ACOA’s role was as part of that committee? What role did ACOA or CanNor play in relation to developing the recommendations for the deputy minister?
Mr. Boland: I wouldn’t be familiar with that level of detail on that particular program.
The Chair: Okay. Thank you. Ms. Buist, are you along the same lines?
Ms. Buist: In terms of your very specific question about developing the recommendations, I cannot answer that, but I can tell you we did deliver a portion of the program. We were responsible for delivering the market access component of about $340,000 over five years to increase markets for seals. We are aware of the recommendations to maintain support for market access for seal projects and a collaborative approach to address the challenges in the value chain.
What we have done since then, in 2020, because the funding ended at that point, was using our regular programming to continue and enhance the investments in the fisheries and sealing industry in Nunavut, as I have talked about already.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Buist.
Senator Francis: This question is for, Ms. Buist. Some of it might have been answered earlier in our discussion, but I’ll ask it again for further clarification.
In March 2021, the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency — CanNor — announced a one-year $1.35 million collaborative project that was meant to advance Nunavut’s fisheries and seal economies. Among other goals, some of which were fisheries research-based, the project was meant to improve market access and awareness of Canadian seal products.
The project was expected to create 14 jobs. Was that goal achieved? If it was, where are they now, and who are the local community members involved in that?
Ms. Buist: Thank you for your question. I don’t have the specifics about the jobs, chair, but I can provide that to you. You have described the program. That was one of the investments we made in the Government of Nunavut, as you have described, but I don’t have the statistics on the jobs. I would have to get back to you on that.
Senator Francis: Thank you. If you could send them to the clerk.
The Chair: You can send them to the clerk, yes.
Senator Ataullahjan: My question was asked by Senator Francis, but I have a special interest in Nunavut now since my daughter has moved there.
Are you happy with the way this project has gone? I was going to ask the question about jobs. You expected 14 jobs, but how many were actually created? You will send us that information, but I would like to know if you are happy with the way this project has gone. How successful has it been?
Ms. Buist: It’s still an ongoing relationship with Nunavut in terms of our support for the fisheries. It’s hard to answer if we are happy with it. We have a good relationship with the Government of Nunavut. It’s of huge interest to them for us, and the Government of Canada in general, to support their fisheries industry. They are very keen on both the self-sustaining industry to feed Nunavummiut, but also the export business.
We are looking at all kinds of ways to support them. As I mentioned earlier, in the smaller hamlets, we are looking at food harvesting capacity, community-based storage facilities and funding better ships to harvest and flash freeze the fishing stock.
It’s a multi-year, very large project of great interest to Nunavut that we are a part of supporting with our economic development funds.
Senator Ataullahjan: Do you feel it has improved market access and awareness of the Canadian sealing projects?
Ms. Buist: That’s a difficult question for CanNor to answer because we don’t track the results of the Government of Nunavut’s marketing. It may be that you want to hear from the Government of Nunavut on this issue in future considerations of the committee. I don’t want to speak for them in terms of how they feel their success in the marketing of their fishing products is going.
I can speak, though, to the very close relationship we have in supporting them and growing their fishing industry and the success of that relationship that we have built with them.
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you.
Senator McPhedran: I’m picking up on questions that have come to you from Senators Quinn and Kutcher, in particular. I’m going to start by referencing the Fisheries and Oceans Canada short-form CMAPS report and the point made there that the barrier to a lot of the marketing challenges is actually the ongoing public perception of seal products.
We know that consumers in the EU, for example, are for the most part not aware of the Indigenous exception, and we know from the PETA campaign and other campaigns that, generally speaking, many consumers think that seals are an endangered species, which clearly from the evidence we have before us is not the case.
My question really goes more to work that’s being done or considered outside Canada. I’m pretty sure that the examples that we have been given this morning are inside Canada; the promotional opportunities for the Government of Nunavut and seal producers more widely. I have a specific question, and then I want to go on to a second specific question if time allows.
Over the past 25 years, I have spent a fair amount of time in and out of the UN headquarters in New York. I still continue to do that as a senator. There are often displays that countries mount, and it is a very fast track to reaching a wide range of diplomats.
One of the responsibilities that diplomats have is to send reports back to their capital, and I’m wondering whether there has been any exploration of this option? I recognize that you can’t speak for Global Affairs Canada, but, presumably, with your mandates, there would be conversations or potential conversations with Global Affairs, for example, that use that fast track to reach a wide number of diplomats, including those from the countries where there are de facto bans or certainly significant barriers for marketing. For example, with the omega-3 oil production, has there been any discussion about doing something through the Canadian mission? Is this something that is focused on outside Canada, trying to address some of the very practical barriers? If you could give us a sense of whether that’s part of your thinking.
I don’t need to know if it’s a program, per se, but is it part of your thinking? Is it something that’s being explored? How do you reach beyond Canada to try and address some of these misperceptions and, therefore, barriers to trade?
Ms. Skinner: Thank you. That’s a great question. From an ACOA perspective, as I mentioned, we actually work directly with firms. This may be a question for Global Affairs Canada or DFO and their partner institutes. As I mentioned, they are working with the Fur Institute of Canada, the Seals and Seating Network, and the Canadian Sealers Association. I think there are ongoing initiatives to promote seal products more globally.
In terms of working through diplomats in various countries, I would have to defer to my colleagues at Global Affairs Canada. Our marketing would be specifically with the firms.
Senator McPhedran: To be clear, though, my question was geared to discussions, picking up on points made earlier by senators about potential disconnects. What kind of thinking is happening about how you reach beyond Canada to address these barriers to the potential growth of markets?
Ms. Skinner: Thank you.
Our work, as it relates to Global Affairs Canada, is that if we have firms that are looking for specific opportunities, we would actually path find those firms to Global Affairs.
Ms. Buist: Thank you for the question.
We do meet with Global Affairs, and we do meet with clients with Global Affairs. Our focus with Global Affairs most recently has been on the arts and crafts side to try to look for international markets for the amazing arts and crafts that are coming out of Nunavut that use seal pelts.
We have talked to them about expanding markets into Asia. I know they are studying that. We have spoken with them about international trade shows and an increased use of social media. A big way of selling arts and crafts in the North is using Facebook, Instagram and other social media tools, where individual artists put their materials up for sale.
We do have those discussions. As Karen has said, we try to make the connections.
We do not do the actual international marketing. We support the businesses that we work with to try to work with Global Affairs to find those markets.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you. I want to now turn to inside Canada.
Before I do that, are you talking about or asking for meetings with the relevant departments — Global Affairs and DFO are two of them — to talk about greater coordination of your efforts and to see if there is not a way? It sounds from your answers as though there is quite strong communication, one to one, with those whom you see as your clients, but what kind of coordination, big thinking and opportunities to blue sky on this about how to grow — what is happening there?
To be clear, I mean cross-agency; I am talking about getting out of silos, getting together and looking at coordinated joint efforts.
Ms. Buist: The focus of our conversations have been with Global Affairs, because they are the ones who can access the international markets, and use the trade commissioners and Export Development Canada.
To an earlier question, we also have our folks in each of the territorial capitals who meet regularly with Fisheries and Oceans and with trade commissioners. Those conversations go on in each of our territorial offices.
We also have intergovernmental fora, where we meet regularly to talk about what is going on in the Arctic and in the North, in general. We raise topics there of interest to all of the departments that have a presence in the North. We have a monthly committee where all of the departments who operate in the North come together. We discuss a variety of topics. We have the territories come and present their priorities at those.
We have lots of ways in which we break down those silos among the territories in areas of interest. This is not just specific to the fisheries or the sealing but to economic development. There are a number of places where we have those conversations where we are breaking down those potential silos. I would say that is a place where the issues can be raised around various sectors of the economic development, including fisheries.
Ms. Skinner: To add to that, we do a very similar thing in Atlantic Canada. Those tables do exist.
There are also events. You referenced earlier the Northern Lights Conference that would see a lot of our government partners all in the same room with clients. Those conversations happen at formal, official tables but also at events like Northern Lights and events that happen on the ground.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you. If I can now shift back to inside Canada.
My question is going to relate to your tourism relief funds —
Are you having difficulty hearing me?
Ms. Buist: Yes. The transmission is breaking up.
Senator McPhedran: Is the sound level okay? You are just not able to —
The Chair: We are experiencing technical issues. We are going to suspend for a few minutes to deal with this matter.
(The committee suspended.)
(The committee resumed.)
The Chair: We are resuming our meeting, and we will continue with Senator McPhedran.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you.
Both of your agencies have tourism relief funds to support the development of tourism in both the territories and Atlantic Canada. Are there any seal tourism businesses that are benefiting from your funds?
I go to Iceland every year on an annual women political leaders conference. They have a seal museum and seal-watching tours. Does anything similar exist in Canada? Do you have that in development through your tourism relief fund?
Can you tell us more about how those funds get focused on the potential with seal tourism?
Ms. Buist: Perhaps I can start.
Most of the tourism opportunities in the North, especially in Nunavut, are focused on ecotourism and being on the land, the water and in the wilderness. They are not specifically related to sealing or the harvesting of seals, for example.
But yes, we have used tourism relief funds quite significantly over the last few years to support the tourism industry in all three territories. That also includes the promotion of the arts-and-crafts industry in Nunavut that I mentioned earlier.
There is a strong connection between the tourists who come and the purchase of Inuit arts and crafts. The tourism dollars go to promote that as well.
Ms. Skinner: Thank you for the question. With the Tourism Relief Fund, we have also been supporting our arts and crafts industries in Atlantic Canada. Specifically as it relates to the sealing sector, while not supported through the Tourism Relief Fund, we actually have invested in projects with community-based organizations in Newfoundland and Labrador. One was to actually develop a sealer’s museum — a memorial — located in Elliston. They have experiential programming and fantastic operations that support and commemorates the whole history of the sealing sector.
We have also supported through our programming the Craft Council of Newfoundland and Labrador, which in turn supports artisans in the sealing sector to develop and market products outside of Newfoundland and Labrador.
We work with community partners to help those artisans who are in that sector.
The Chair: To follow up on Ms. Skinner’s comments, I have invited our committee to visit Elliston, hopefully in the spring, to visit the John C. Crosbie Sealers Interpretation Centre. I have been there several times myself, and it would be a great educational opportunity for our committee to see that firsthand. Maybe we’ll see a root cellar or two when we are down there.
Senator Quinn: To come back to the interdepartmental connections and whatnot, in conducting its study this committee will — at the end of the day — write a report. There will be recommendations in the report.
In hearing the last hour or so of discussion, I am wondering if one of those recommendations shouldn’t be going down the stream of encouraging a proactive strategic reaching-out to business developers and suppliers as well as to the representatives of target-market countries so that we can develop those markets — causing such a thing through a recommendation to happen in a very proactive, strategic way.
What I am hearing is what I experienced when I worked in the public service: the silos with the occasional crossovers, or that discussions have happened and may not have resulted in a lot of proactive activity.
The proactive thing could be important.
Would such a recommendation be helpful to you and your colleagues with whom you speak occasionally to cause more proactive activity in developing the marketplaces but also to help manage the seal population, particularly in the South?
I would really like to get an idea of the number of seals that have been counted in the North in relation to the 40,000. Ms. Buist, in your discussions with your colleagues, maybe that is something you could say has been requested; you could let them know that we have requested that.
So would a recommendation help in that manner to try and push the yardsticks to be more proactive in developing the marketplace with those two benefits?
Ms. Buist: It is always helpful to have a recommendation to encourage collaboration, not that it doesn’t exist. It is a very helpful approach, and one that we have embraced and participate in fully.
I know it was a part of the CMAPS’ recommendations, as well, to collaborate among governments.
I would add, though, that it has to involve the territories or, in Ms. Skinner’s circumstances, the provinces, and industry as well. In order to be the most effective, it has to have those three components: the federal government, the provincial and territorial governments, and industry.
In terms of your questions around the seal population, that is really a scientific question for Fisheries and Oceans. There is no lack of seals in the North. The majority of the harvesting, as I mentioned earlier, is in the North. My understanding is there are no quotas, no problem with lack of seals in the North.
Senator Quinn: Before going to Ms. Skinner, just a brief follow-up. Is there any evidence of detrimental effects on fish stocks that you are aware of in the North?
Ms. Buist: Again, that is something that you would have to ask the scientists in DFO.
Senator Quinn: Ms. Skinner?
Ms. Skinner: I would reiterate Ms. Buist’s comments. I think there are tables where we all have opportunities to sit together to talk about particular market development, access issues.
Anytime there is a recommendation or ways that we can collaborate better, and that includes provincial governments, industry, academia, people doing research, the partners that we can pull around the table, anytime that we can come together in more seamless ways, that benefits the industry writ large.
Senator Kutcher: Following up briefly on Senator Quinn’s direction, has there ever been a task force or a set of round tables that have come together to address the issue of improving the market for seal products that would include your organizations, GAC and the private sector? To your knowledge, has there been such a task force or activity specifically directed toward that?
Ms. Skinner: I will start on that. None that I am aware of. Thank you.
Ms. Buist: None that I am aware of, just the CMAPS program. Its purpose was to bring people together around market access.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for that. In your opinion, do you think it might be useful if there were such a time-limited task force or a series of round tables that would take that on as a specific direction?
Frankly, I’m concerned that departments talking to each other ends up with departments talking to each other, which ends up with departments talking to each other. That’s why I am trying to focus more on some kind of task force that has input into all of these departments and includes the private sector, provinces and territories.
Do you think that something like that might be useful to help direct our activities toward market development?
Ms. Skinner: Thank you. I will start on that one. I think DFO is, perhaps, attempting to bring together those players under the Seal Summit that is proposed for next week. We have been invited to that. I have not seen the agenda or anything like that, but I do think the intention is that they will bring together industry, academia and other players. But to your broader comment, I think that any opportunity to get together across departments to have those conversations, there is merit in those discussions taking place.
Ms. Buist: I would add that for CanNor, we’re guided by what northerners want and ask for and what they think is important. I would strongly encourage the committee to hear from the Government of Nunavut, which is our primary partner in supporting the fishing and sealing industries in Nunavut.
I don’t want to speak for them as to what they would see as the most effective way to bring the sealing industry to the fore and to increase international or national markets for it.
Senator Kutcher: Ms. Buist, I am embarrassed to admit what I am going to say. Maybe I am the only person around this table with this embarrassment, but I, frankly, know next to nothing about the seal products based arts and crafts industry. I wonder if you could help educate me about how I could educate myself to have a much better appreciation of what that industry is about, what it creates, the products, its reach, all of those other things. If you could help me as to how I could educate myself better about that, I would certainly appreciate it. There may be other members of the committee who might also find that useful.
The Chair: Get yourself invited to the Northern Lights Conference in February. That will be a good start. I hope that we will all get the opportunity to go there. I have attended a couple of times. The quality of workmanship and the promotion — just to walk into the room and to talk with the artisans themselves is an education in itself.
Not to take away from the answers of Ms. Skinner or Ms. Buist, but I saw an opportunity to put that forward. If Ms. Skinner or Ms. Buist want to add to that, they can go ahead.
Ms. Buist: Mr. Chair, it is probably Nunavut tourism, but I am happy to provide whatever information we can get from the Government of Nunavut on the promotion of their arts and crafts industry related to the seal. I can also send some recommendations of where to shop when you are next in Iqaluit.
Senator Kutcher: I tried to get there once recently, and the airplane could not land because there was an ice storm that lasted days. We will give it another try.
The Chair: We plan on inviting the Government of Nunavut before us sometime in the future. We look forward to hearing from them as well.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you very much, Senator Manning. I have a quick question for you, and then for our witnesses. Are we hoping to hear from Global Affairs Canada? Will we have a chance to have a discussion?
The Chair: Yes, we are.
Senator McPhedran: Wonderful. Thank you.
My question is to both CanNor and ACOA. You were members of the steering committee for the DFO report on the Certification and Market Access Program for Seals — CMAPS, as you are referring to it. That seems to be the only program that focuses on market access for seal products. As you well know, DFO did an evaluation of CMAPS and did find some areas that had not been fully realized. My question is geared to exactly those findings.
One of the findings was the uncertainty around European Union, or EU, regulations. Indigenous exporters — your clients or customers — don’t have access to EU markets, it would seem, largely because of this uncertainty. Could you just tell us whether either of your agencies is contributing to helping to certify Indigenous seal products for export? Are you doing something to clarify what is happening on the EU side so that the requirements for certification can be clearer and there can be some progress made on this?
Ms. Buist: Chair, the senator is correct that there was an exemption in 2015 for Indigenous harvesters to gain access to the European Union for seal marketing, but in 2020, the EU reported that the market has not fully rebounded. It has not fully rebounded because there is a fear of breaking the regulations. There is confusion about the certification, lack of experience with international trade, and a number of other recommendations that we’re aware of.
I go back to what I said earlier: It would be Global Affairs that is primarily responsible, and the federal government, for working on the issues around international markets and breaking down those barriers with the European Union for Inuit, but it still remains a trade barrier.
CanNor is not the lead on that kind of activity. We don’t do that sort of work specifically, but we would connect the artists and the artisans we fund with the right people to speak to. We would work with the Government of Nunavut, and we would bring people together around those conversations and try to help, but we would not actually be at the forefront of doing the work on the marketing. As Ms. Skinner mentioned earlier, the work that DFO does is directly with the fur industry and with the Canadian Sealers Association.
Ms. Skinner: Ms. Buist, I think you have spoken to that very well. The only thing I would add is that we have worked with some Indigenous clients who wanted to undertake marketing activities. So we do have programs that can support them as they are developing particular markets. Some of that could be in the EU or Southeast Asia, but again, it would be project specific, based on a particular opportunity.
Senator McPhedran: Ms. Skinner, thank you. I have a follow-up question to that. My current questions are based on the evaluation done of the CMAPS report, and I would ask each of you whether there are active evaluations on the effectiveness of your programs in that regard.
Ms. Buist: Thank you. No, there are no active evaluations on the effectiveness of our fisheries funding on the marketing of seal products.
Ms. Skinner: That would be the same for us.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you. I want to continue with a second question, also coming out of the evaluation of the CMAPS program. One of the findings was that there had been an underestimation of the capacity building that was required in order to better realize the benefits of building out this aspect of the industry to actually manufacture products for export. That included product development, skill building, training, counselling, access to material — all necessary components of capacity building.
Does either of your agencies see a role to play in those aspects of capacity building? Are you already doing any of those aspects of capacity building? Is capacity building a priority area for either agency?
Ms. Buist: I can start, thank you very much.
Yes, very much so. We didn’t get all that much funding under the CMAPS program; I think it was $340,000, and as you know, it ended in 2020. Since then, we have provided $1.5 million of our program funding to the government of Nunavut for a broad range of activities, including capacity building and training. That’s training on almost anything related to fisheries and sealing, from the harvest to working with the furs. For example, for the preparation of the meats, or for artisans for sewing. I also referenced a project that we funded with the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation to look at the feasibility of the omega-3. That’s another piece related to the seal oil.
Capacity building, especially in the territories, is a big piece of what CanNor funds for economic development.
Senator McPhedran: Just before we move to your colleague, what were the results of the capacity building in relation to omega-3 oil production?
Ms. Buist: That’s a feasibility study at this point to see whether the omega-3 can become a marketable product, so on that particular piece, there is no measurement of capacity. It’s a feasibility study.
Senator McPhedran: And it’s in progress, or has it been completed?
Ms. Buist: Yes, it’s in progress.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you.
Ms. Skinner: The only thing I would add is that we actually have specific programs with which we can help our clients in terms of capacity building. We have worked with our Indigenous partners to help them with marketing expertise within their firms. We have also worked with manufacturing and processing firms on the ground to provide them with technical expertise, quality control and financial administration. So capacity building is certainly a part of what we would do to work with our clients to help them advance their businesses.
Senator McPhedran: When you measure progress, do you have any results to report from those programs?
Ms. Skinner: I don’t have the specific results on those projects, but each of those programs would have a measurement tool as part of the evaluation on that.
The Chair: Thank you.
I want to make a comment; I would be remiss if I did not. I’m sure CanNor has along the same lines of a mandate, but for those who might not be aware, ACOA’s mandate is to work to create opportunities for economic growth in our region by helping businesses become more competitive, innovative and productive by working with diverse communities to develop and diversify local economies and champion the strengths of Atlantic Canada.
In my many years of provincial and federal politics, I have worked with ACOA many times. I just want to say that they have done tremendous work in Atlantic Canada and continue to do so. I’m sure it’s the same for CanNor. I’m not familiar with the operations of CanNor, but I’m sure they are.
I have seen great benefits to our province of Newfoundland and Labrador through the work and funding of ACOA and the people there.
I would be remiss if I didn’t say that I am very confident that it’s in good hands now under Ms. Skinner, not to take away from anyone who was there beforehand. I know very well that it’s in good hands with Ms. Skinner. I look forward to watching it continue to grow.
I want to thank you for your time here this morning, Ms. Buist, Ms. Skinner and gentlemen. You have added some great information to our study and given us some ideas on different avenues we can take as we go forward. Thank you for taking the time to do that this morning.
Some of our senators, including me, are attending the Seal Summit next week in St. John’s. Hopefully, we’ll gain some information again.
The sealing industry is a very challenging one, as you know, from many aspects, whether it’s the abundance of seals off the coast of our province and different parts of Canada, creating marketing opportunities in different parts of the world or the seal bans we face in the U.S., the European Union and other places. We, as a community, are trying to find ways to assist or at least recommend that we see this as a resource that we believe in. We’re just trying to convince others to believe in it, too.
That’s the process we are doing here. You have added much to that this morning. On behalf of the committee members, I want to thank you for doing that. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)