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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS

EVIDENCE

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EDMONTON, Thursday, September 8, 2022

The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 1:27 p.m. [MT] to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to human rights generally.

Senator Salma Ataullahjan (Chair) in the chair.

[English]

The Chair: Honourable senators, I’m Salma Ataullahjan, senator from Toronto and chair of this committee. It is with extraordinary sadness that we learned of the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. On behalf of the Senate of Canada, we extend sincere condolences to His Majesty and to all members of the Royal Family. Honourable senators and witnesses, we will now observe a minute of silence.

(Those present then stood in silent tribute.)

The Chair: Today we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights, and I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of the committee who are participating in this meeting. We have Senator Arnot from Saskatchewan, Senator Jaffer from British Columbia, Senator Martin from British Columbia, and Senator Simons from Alberta.

Having held two meetings in June in Ottawa, today we continue our study on Islamophobia in Canada under our general order of reference. Our study will cover, among other matters, the role of Islamophobia with respect to online and offline violence against Muslims, general discrimination, as well as discrimination in employment including Islamophobia in the federal public service.

Our study will also examine the source of Islamophobia, its impact on individuals including mental health and physical safety, and possible solutions and government responses.

We are pleased to be here in Edmonton and to hear from witnesses about Islamophobia in this part of the country. This is the second of our public hearings outside of Ottawa. Yesterday we were in Vancouver, and in two weeks we will be in Quebec City and Toronto.

Let me provide some details about our meeting today. This afternoon we shall have two one-hour panels with a number of the invited witnesses. In each panel we shall hear from witnesses, and then the senators will have a question-and-answer session. There will be a short break around 3:15 p.m. In addition, the committee has set aside time at the end of the afternoon to hear some short five-minute interventions from members of the public without a question-and-answer session. If you would like to participate in this part of the meeting, you need to register beforehand with the committee staff sitting at the table at the back of the room.

Now I shall introduce our first panel of witnesses. Each witness has been asked to make an opening statement of about five minutes, and I would ask you to maybe not go over six or seven minutes at the most because we want to have enough time for the senators to ask their questions. The same limit is placed on senators when they ask questions.

I will introduce our first panel. We have asked you to make opening statements, and shall here hear all of witness and then turn to questions from the senator. We have Omar Yaqub, Servant of Servants (Executive Director), Islamic Family and Social Services Association; Ibtissam Nkaili, Senior Financial Analyst, Export Development Canada; Timiro Mohamed, who is a poet; and Nasra Adem, Director, Black Arts Matter, Poet, Artist, and Queer Activist.

We will start with Mr. Yaqub.

Omar Yaqub, Servant of Servants, Islamic Family and Social Services Association: Thank you. We begin in the name of the Creator, God, Allah, who is known by many names and who has revealed that he is the most gracious, the most merciful. We ask that he bless this senate committee and the venerated land upon which this meeting is held, a land we recognize as the ancestral home of the Indigenous and the Métis people, the Cree, Blackfoot, Nakota Sioux, Iroquois, Dene, Ojibway, Saulteaux, Anishinaabe, Inuit, and many others to whom we are bound by treaty, our shared humanity, and a sacred call to the brotherhood, sisterhood, and civic duty.

I speak to you as the historian co-laureate for Edmonton and as someone who supports Islamic Family and Social Services Association, IFSSA, a social change agency. Islamic Family is an Imagine Canada and Great Places to Work accredited charity, the winner of the government of Alberta’s inspiration award for combatting domestic violence, the Canadian Mental Health Association’s Professional Care Award, YEG Startup Pivot of the Year and more.

The Islamic Family and Social Services Association, IFSSA, supports the mother who is fleeing abuse without making her compromise her identity or safety. We support people seeking counselling that respects their values. We support youth looking for a creative platform that appreciates and amplifies their voice. We are a hub where community contributes and heals.

In addition to holistic frontline crisis work, we lead national research on prison chaplaincy and foster care for equity seeking communities, research on affordable housing for larger and extended families, training for informal community care providers on addressing disinformation and misinformation through hyper-local media.

When triggering events like the dozen-plus attacks against Black veiled Muslim women happen, our team responds by providing victims and the community with relevant mental health supports, by holding healing gatherings, by conducting active outreach to partners, and by engaging with the media and social platforms.

Society has systems for addressing victims of direct crime. A break-in can be followed up by police victim services unit, but hate crimes and Islamophobic rhetoric are different. They trigger vicarious trauma that ripples through communities. The victims may be thousands of kilometres away from where an incident takes place, but their trauma can be debilitating.

My deepest challenge is addressing trauma while in trauma. When I hear about a hate attack or Bill 21, I have to process the fear I feel, the fear my wife feels walking outside, the fear my team feels coming to work. My team and I have to create, plan, and host space for the community while we ourselves are reeling. We are firefighting while we are being burned by fire.

To address collective trauma, we must start with three actions: Number one, we must further reconciliation by supporting, bridging, and bonding between diverse communities. Any discussion of Islamophobia without grounding in reconciliation is incomplete. Attacks on Black Muslim women and missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls are profoundly interconnected. We know through court disclosure that the perpetrators of many hate incidents are survivors of residential schools. Knowing this means they must resist knee-jerk punitive reactions for harsher punishments. We must see the root causes of the problem as deeply embedded in Canadian history, and we must seek a restorative approach if we want justice and healing.

For the past seven years, Bent Arrow and Islamic Family have worked side by side to welcome refugees at the airport with ceremony, with traditional song and dance. Our agencies and communities celebrate and learn together. This Senate committee needs to encourage collaboration between Indigenous and non-European settler communities for collective healing to occur.

Number two, we need to invest in community voices. We can’t restrict and police our way out of online hate. We must instead invest in positive expressions of identity. For example, “The Mosquers” is a local film festival that has been running for 15 years. It showcases and develops local Muslim artists. Despite being the biggest festival of its kind in the world, it has not received any federal funding. Interactions with the Department of Canadian Heritage are a case study in what systemic discrimination looks like in practice. This committee must call for elevating Muslim voices through the arts and addressing barriers in funding for Muslim organizations.

Number three, we must expand world views and shift the discussion from phobia to mawadda, communal affection. The trauma we face cannot be addressed by the colonial systems that have perpetuated it or from a deficit and a fear-based approach. We must move from Islamophobia, a fear of Muslims, to mawadda, the Arabic term for communal affection. We can do this by learning from Islamic perspectives. This can help us innovate and deal with intractable poverty, racism, and other ills differently.

Indigenous sentencing circles and restorative justice practices are not just better for Indigenous people, they are better for everyone. Islam is a millennia-old rich tradition with much to offer our present day.

There are many big examples of what a mawadda-based approach could look like. One small example worth celebrating is the Canadian prayer rug, a piece of textile art that reflects what a rich tradition looks like. The rug is a product of youth listening to elders and early pioneers of working with Métis and Muslim artists and beautifully weaving Islamic tradition with local stories.

I ask that the house of sober second thought question the frame of fear and move to love. Mawadda may strike you as odd or audacious. Why is that? Why should anything less suffice? Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Now I’ll turn to you, Ibtissam Nkaili. I’m sorry. I’m sure I’m saying your name wrong, so please correct me, but it’s your turn.

[Translation]

Ibtissam Nkaili, Senior Financial Analyst, Export Development Canada, as an individual: Good afternoon. I want to thank the committee members for inviting me to participate in this discussion today. My name is Ibtissam Nkaili, I am a chartered professional accountant in Alberta, and 14 years ago, I came to Canada as an international student. I studied in eastern Canada, and then I moved to western Canada.

My personal and professional experiences in Canada have been very positive. I believe that wearing the hijab or a veil has not prevented me from advancing in my career or having positive and rewarding experiences. Having said that, I must admit that the increasing number of despicable attacks on the Muslim community is very disturbing. I cite the attack on the Quebec City mosque, the tragedy in London, Ontario, and all the attacks on veiled Muslim women, including several in Edmonton.

As Canadians of the Muslim faith, we always learn of those types of shocking events with grief and dread, leading us to fear for the safety of people of the Muslim faith in Canada.

I would also like to express my solidarity against any kind of violence or fanaticism that is behind these condemnable acts that have struck our adopted country. Yes, we are Muslims, but first, we are Canadians and we have chosen to live here. For us, this is our adopted country, and we want to feel safe here.

Canada is one of the most coveted countries precisely because of its tolerance and freedom. That is why it’s so shocking to see such things. We don’t believe it. It is upsetting. To that end, I believe that an initiative like this one is very important. There is an urgent need for the government to take pointed actions to reassure the Muslim community concerning security, but also to strengthen their sense of belonging.

In my opinion, we first need to recognize that Islamophobia exists and strengthen security in order to prevent these types of events, but we also need to put in place adequate means of communication to be able to interact or report situations of Islamophobia or such attacks. Instead of going through the usual system, measures should be put in place that can help in situations of violence.

It is often said that fear is ignorance. It seems to me that there is a certain ignorance of the Muslim religion. Like other communities, ours is heterogenous. What brings us together is that we have chosen Canada. We have the same faith, but we are all different. We are not the same. Our countries of origin are different, our languages are different, our customs are different. Generalizing is never a good practice, especially when it comes to a religion with over two billion believers, which is why it is important to take concrete steps to demystify the Canadian Muslim community, its beliefs and its practices. This can start with simple actions: for example, introducing activities that promote connection and sharing into the school curriculum and recognizing important days in other religions, whether Islam, Judaism or others.

I would also like to add that, in the workplace, diversity and inclusion are not just about hiring employees from racialized groups, but about making those employees feel valued and able to come to their jobs feeling like themselves with all of their identities and cultures, while feeling valued. Ultimately, fighting racism is a necessity for building a healthy and stronger Canada based on the lessons of the past. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much. I would now turn to Timiro Mohamed.

Timiro Mohamed, Poet, as an individual: Salamu’alaikum Warahmatulahi Wabaraktuh. My name is Timiro Mohamed. I am a Somali Canadian poet based on Treaty 6 territory. My parents came to Canada in the early 1990s as government-sponsored refugees fleeing civil war and unrest. My identity rests at the intersection of several experiences. I cannot decouple my understanding of anti-Blackness from my understanding of Islamophobia or anti-Muslim hate. For these reasons, I’m going to speak to you regarding the unique reality of anti-Black Islamophobia, a term coined by Dr. Délice Mugabo in 2016.

As a Black Muslim woman born and raised on Turtle Island, I’m familiar with erasure, the slow and intentional undoing of my existence by systems of oppression. Whereas written, oral, and artistic records have shown that Black people were the first Muslims on this continent, this narrative often goes untold, because of the functions of racist discourse is to write Black people out of Canadian history and position us solely as newcomers, that our presence is a recent one and not a 400-year presence.

My experience as a Somali Canadian is a singular one within the rich, varied, and multifaceted experiences of Black Muslims from across Africa, the Caribbean, and the Americas. While reflecting on her 2019 study, Black Muslims in Canada: A Systemic Review of Published and Unpublished Literature, Dr. Fatimah Jackson-Best writes that the lack of data about non-Somali Black Muslims also suggests that there is a larger issue about dominant narratives and imagery of whom Black Muslims are in Canada and who becomes excluded from such depictions.

The primary focus of my remarks today is the countless attacks on Black Muslim women have taken place in Alberta. Whereas data on the number of reported incidents vary, accord to the National Council of Canadian Muslims, or NCCM, Alberta Muslim community has seen 14 reported attacks in the last six months. What is particularly concerning about the statement is the number of unreported attacks that take place. The dehumanizing experience of violence, anxiety, and trauma that arises when the members of our community are violently attacked is compounded by a lack of action or continued conversation locally and nationally.

Anti-Black Islamophobia exists in the defaults. It exists in micro-aggressions and personal and professional spaces that wear away at our dignity. It is the imposter syndrome that arises when we do not see ourselves reflected in the media, government, academia, or professional spaces. It’s in school systems that erase us from the Canadian narrative, quietly direct Black Muslims students into educational streams that deny them access to postsecondary institutions and expel Black Muslims students at disproportionate rates.

It exists in the policing system that racially profiles us, fails to act when we report violence, enact bodily harm, and in a carceral system where Black Muslims are overrepresented and denied access to spiritually sensitive chaplains. It exists in health care systems that lack culturally competent supports for communities navigating intergenerational trauma.

Anti-Black Islamophobia exists in grocery stores, at bus stops and in parks, where our safety is at risk simply because we exist. It is constant. It is intertwined with every facet of Canadian society. Still, White supremacy places the burden of change on the backs of those most impacted by its violence.

To understand the reality of anti-Black Islamophobia, we must also consider what conditions are in place to facilitate its proliferation.

Canada’s existence necessitates erasure. It’s a nation founded on colonization, white supremacy, and genocide. We cannot decouple acts of violence against Black Muslim women from acts of violence enacted by police against Black and Indigenous communities.

According to the Ontario Human Rights Commission —

The Chair: Please feel free to take a quiet moment. We hear you, and we have been overwhelmed. We understand, please take your time.

Ms. Mohamed: According to the Ontario Human Rights Commission, a Black person is more than 20 times more likely to be shot and killed by police compared to a White person.

Complacency is also violence. The same system that watches in silence as Black Muslim women are attacked also facilitates continued violence against missing and murdered Indigenous women. There are over 1,181 missing and murdered Indigenous women in Canada.

The final report of the national inquiry entitled Reclaiming Power and Place concluded that the violence experienced by Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQIA people amounts to genocide. I cannot overstate the urgency with which anti-Black Islamophobia must be addressed.

I recommend the development of a national strategy that draws on Indigenous ways of knowing, is community led, and utilizes a reconciliation-based lens. First, reduce systemic barriers to justice and invest in community-led pathways to justice that offers alternatives to incarceration for Black Muslim survivors of hate-based attacks as well as Black Muslim and Indigenous offenders.

Support municipalities in a plan to divest from policing and invest in safe and thriving communities by supporting culturally and spiritually sensitive community amenities.

Establish a data governance structure that utilizes a culturally and spiritually informed lens and data collection in the areas of employment, education, health care, and the criminal justice system.

Invest and increase scholarship led by Black Muslim Canadians as well as artistic and cultural production led by Black Muslim Canadians.

Develop safer and more welcoming school spaces for Black Muslim youth by investing in culturally and spiritually sensitive school-based support.

Celebrate the heritage and contributions of Black Muslims in Canada.

Recognize the diverse cultural practices and sacred holidays of Black Muslim students and educators.

Re-evaluate the disproportionate punitive measures administered against Black Muslim students.

In the tradition of countless Black Muslim artists that came before me, my role is to imagine what is possible, to picture a world not confined by the dehumanizing realities of racism and White supremacy. As those in positions of power, I call on you to consider your role, to recognize that positions of power necessitate action and that anti-Black Islamophobia exists in our defaults, our complacency and our willingness to uphold a harmful and violent status quo. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Now I will turn to Nasra Adem for your testimony.

Nasra Adem, Director, Black Arts Matter, Poet, Artist, and Queer Activist, as an individual: Thank you. Thank you to the other witnesses who shared their experiences today. My name is Nasra Adem, and I am quite emotional right now, so bear with me. I am a poet, and I am the director and founder of Black Arts Matter, which started as a call to demystify and uplift the voices of Black artists in Alberta. I am Gurgura, which means I’m Oromos and I’m Somali. I’m a first-generation Canadian. I am gender-fluid, non-binary person. I’m disabled. And I bring up these identities because they have been deeply politicized, and that politicization has deeply affected my quality of life. Being in a political space, I think they warrant attention. They’re also identities that have shaped my perspective on Islamophobia and on anti-Blackness.

I’m grateful for Timiro for bringing the language of anti-Black Islamophobia to the forefront because it is the lens I move from.

I’ve lived in between worlds a lot. I grew up in Ontario and in Alberta in predominantly in Black Muslim communities, but I spent a lot of time leaving those communities to find adequate resources in work and in school because I needed art to process for my mental health and to process a lot of the horrors that were normalized around me to the point where I didn’t realize they were horrors.

I had to leave my community to find structural support, and going in between these worlds informed a lot of my perspective. It shows me how deeply embedded Islamophobia was in my own body and how anti-Black Islamophobia, White supremacy, and colonialism infiltrated at my home and were being spelled back at me by my family members, and it put me in a position where I didn’t feel safe at home, and I didn’t feel safe in the world, so a lot of the same narratives were being — I was bombarded with, and art allowed me to interrogate those narratives deeply and find my own.

In my work, I continue to centre Black Muslim women and gender nonconforming folk and Black queer Muslims because it is an identity that even within my own community I face a lot of repercussions for, and the ostracization is deeply — is deeply layered, and it showed me that so much of these issues we face are embedded in the psyche, and it’s going to take commitment to recognize the layers and the nuances of our experiences of Islamophobia in order for us to heal as a collective.

I experienced my baby cousin going into foster care, this year as a result and symptom of immigration and the lack of support. I spent a lot of time making sure she had halal meals to eat and Ubers to take her where she needed to go because the group homes were understaffed, and all of this while I was facing my own bodily repercussion of unprocessed trauma and continuous trauma.

When the spaces that are meant for care further ostracize you and vilify you and blame you for how you process or engage with your constant destabilization, it can feel like there’s absolutely nowhere for you to turn.

Islamophobia is a public health issue. Anti-Black racism is a public health issue. Funding for the arts is a public health issue. And my hope is for these conversations to recognize the intersectionality of our issues and how layered and nuanced Islamophobia is and that we utilize our networks of power to engage with the deep layers of trauma that are continuously being perpetuated. Thank you so much.

The Chair: Thank you to all of you for some very powerful testimony, and we have a list. And Senator Martin, you get to ask the first question.

Senator Martin: Thank you, chair. First of all, thank you to each of you for bringing your voice to the table and for speaking so courageously, so honestly. I feel quite moved and emotional myself and, in my own ways, relating to you based on my own personal growing up in Canada but in a different way. I’m from Vancouver, born in Korea, so daughter of immigrants and, you know, I can relate on various fronts.

I only have five minutes, so I want to first ask Mr. Yaqub, when you say, you know, the Islamic Family Society is dealing with trauma, so individuals like yourself, you are dealing with trauma, while also dealing with trauma. So I was curious as to others who are involved who are not dealing with the same kind of trauma, is that effective when you have such allies or partners to work with?

Mr. Yaqub: Thank you for the question. One way to think about it might be looking at what our response is when a hate crime does occur. Traditionally, when crimes occur, Edmonton police might refer someone to victim services, and victim services is there to support that individual. Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is, does this unit know how to respond to hate crimes, and can they respond to the vicarious trauma that ripples through our community. There may have been an individual who has been attacked, but there’s also a community that feels under attack that may feel scared to go outdoors because someone who looked like them, who was like them, was attacked, and so victim services unit can’t address that. That’s where our organization, where Timiro, where others create healing gathering that support that, but the challenge in doing that is the people doing that work are themselves still reeling, still processing. It can feel very frantic and very alone doing that work after having helped others process this while yourself haven’t processed.

I think there many allies, but there isn’t deliberate support in the systems to build capacity in the community to react to these types of events.

Senator Martin: You also talked about the Department Canadian Heritage as an example of just the barriers that are there. I’m assuming that your organization also tries to help — are you also helping other organizations or individuals with the process? It’s quite complex, isn’t it?

Mr. Yaqub: We acted as an advocate for The Mosquers which is a local film festival. It was telling, actually. The person we were talking to from the Department of Canadian Heritage, their first response was, “oh, no, this doesn’t qualify.” And I told this to a member of the Mosquers, and, you know, that member promptly left feeling, “oh, okay, we don’t qualify.”

Because I’m pretty cocky and really privileged, I’m going to call. And this person tells me the same thing. I’m, like, why, right? “Well, you’re not an arts organization.” I’m, like, this is a film festival. And then she’s, like, “well, you haven’t been around long enough.” I’m, like, it’s been around 14 years. And then, you know, because this is taking place over bursts and back-and-forth, then she’s, like, “oh, well, your proposal isn’t aligned with these things.” And I’m, like, well, you know, two blocks away from where we are, you funded the Arts Quarters and how is that different than what this is? And then, radio silence.

Then I go and I call a friend who calls a friend, and we talk to the assistant deputy minister, and then I get a call back. Without admitting it, people realized that something systemic was going on, that the rejection was not grounded in any sort of practical policy but that there were gatekeepers that were acting in the Department of Heritage to hold up funding, to tell organizations that they were not eligible.

Senator Martin: We need to address this in our report for sure.

The Chair: Yes. In fact, I was going to be asking a similar question. Yes, we do.

Senator Martin: Maybe you can follow up with that now.

The Chair: It was very similar to what you were saying about the interactions with the Department of Canadian Heritage that demonstrated systemic discrimination

Senator Martin: Yes.

Senator Martin: So we need to examine that carefully.

The Chair: So we need to, yes, expand on that.

Senator Martin: Yes. And, lastly, I just wanted to say to Ms. Mohamed, you outlined very carefully what the national strategy would look like, so I don’t know if you wanted to add anything more to what you were saying. I thought you did a very thorough, a very clear, list of what should happen, but I know that it was quite emotional, and so I don’t know if, at this time, you wanted to clarify anything in that regard, or if your brief will include those suggestions.

Ms. Mohamed: Thank you for giving me the place to speak. I didn’t have any additions but feel free to ask for any clarification.

Senator Martin: Okay. I’ll have a careful look. Thank you.

The Chair: Senator Jaffer.

Senator Jaffer: Thank you very much for your presentations. I’ve been listening very carefully, and I had to go into my own self to deal with what you’re saying, especially Ms. Mohamed. I want to say to you, first of all, that we heard you. We heard you very clearly, and there’s a transcript that’s going in, so we will read it again. We heard you very well, and I want to say to you is the only thought that goes through my mind when I heard you and I heard the others and the struggle is, day-to-day, what is the impact on your life and your family?

Ms. Mohamed: I think that I occupy a unique world, sort of what Mr. Yaqub was referring to. I have the opportunity to serve community and on a daily basis to support youth experiencing similar realities. I think the only thing that I can say in response is that it’s constant. We are living this reality. We don’t have the luxury of turning off the news and going to sleep at night and no longer having to think about it. It occupies every facet of our day-to-day existence. Whether you are boarding an airplane, you are simply going to the store, applying for a job, it’s constant. And the complacency is also constant because very few people understand the intricacies of this experience.

Senator Jaffer: Thank you. Ms. Adem, if it’s a difficult question, please don’t answer it. But I think that you have so much guts. Being a Muslim myself, I don’t know how to express to you that even for you to be here is exceptionally brave. Being part of the community, I think I know —I can’t know how you know — the struggles you face.

Ms. Adem, I wonder if you’re able, only if you’re able, you’ve said some things, I know, I heard, but if there is anything else you want to add, any space we can give, because five minutes is very little as to what anything else you want to add.

Ms. Adem: Thank you so much for seeing me and for acknowledging the bravery. I think in relation to what you had asked Ms. Mohamed — who I’m constantly in awe of and so grateful for the clear and rich breakdown that she offered — when thinking about how it affects my day-to-day, I was diagnosed with a neurologic disorder a couple of months ago after experiencing an extreme burnout. I recognized that a lot of how I have been forced to move through the world, the armour, and the pressure to be able to express myself and constantly advocate for my truth, took a toll on me in ways I did not understand, as well as somebody that had been making space — because it was not offered to me — making space for my wholeness in work and in community.

Starting Black Arts Matter was because I was drowning. Even after going to school for art and pushing my way through the familial and religious narratives of what is possible for me, even after graduating, I was recognizing that the audiences I needed and the spaces I needed to feel safe to share my story didn’t exist in Alberta, and I was told I should leave or I should what have you, but staying reminded me that — as James Baldwin said, “The space in which I fit will not exist until I make it,”— and the pressure of having to do that while also experiencing the excavation of being a poet and the work of building my craft just completely led to my body shutting down.

I was very close to not making it here today because of my disabilities, and these disabilities have direct correlation to living and existing in a White supremacist colonial system. I didn’t get to spend as much time as I would have liked to with this speech, because I was battling my nervous system and my physical abilities.

So when we say day-to-day, I really, really want us to think about it meaning the 10 minutes before I get here where I’m battling my anxiety because I didn’t get to spend time on my speech, because I’m trying to tend to my body that is disabled and being disabled by these systems that are asking way too much of me and will not let me rest in who I am and make a living and make a life just as well as anybody else.

It’s a deeply emotional, psychological and spiritual practice to be Muslim in this place and all of the other back slashes that I exist within. It’s very intimate. These structures allow us to engage with intimacy of how these traumas show up in our lives.

So thank you for giving me the space.

Senator Jaffer: Actually, you don’t thank us. With the greatest of respect, we thank you. We thank you. It is you who we need to thank because we also have a lot to learn from you. I want you to know that every member of this committee and everybody that’s sitting around here not only has heard you, has heard Ms. Mohamed, but we’ve also learned from both of you, so you don’t need to thank us. We thank you. Thank you very much. Chair, do I have a few more minutes or not?

The Chair: Yes, you do. I don’t know if the other senators want to ask questions.

Senator Simons: Yes.

The Chair: Okay. And Senator Arnot?

Senator Jaffer: I’ll go after.

Senator Simons: I’m on the list, too, yes? Remember I came over?

The Chair: You can. Yes, go ahead. I will put Senator Jaffer on second round. Senator Jaffer, if you could put off your microphone.

Senator Simons: I have to say I feel as an Alberta senator and as a proud Edmonton resident that today my Senate colleagues have seen the best and worst of Alberta on display. We have heard from remarkable witnesses, from such remarkable witnesses, who have demonstrated the best of the diversity and the richness and the rootedness of Alberta’s Muslim community, Edmonton’s Muslim community. It’s not exactly like we’re putting our best face forward here, but, you know, this is the question I didn’t get to ask Mr. Said Omar. I think it was in July, Alberta appointed a new head of its human rights commission. The head of the Alberta Human Rights Commission, Collin May, a journalist turned up an article that he had written in 2009 in which he said of Islam:

Islam is not a peaceful religion misused by radicals. Rather, it is one of the most militaristic religions known to man, and it is precisely this militaristic heritage that informs the actions of radicals throughout the Muslim world.

When you see that the head of the Alberta Human Rights Commission whose job it is to protect minority rights in on record with such statements, I guess I want to ask Mr. Yaqub and Ms. Nkaili, first of all, I mean, how do you respond to that, in Alberta, the place where, you know, you have chosen to build your lives?

Mr. Yaqub: I think it’s an indication of the work to be done. I know Mr. May has recently sued the publication that released those remarks. It’s very interesting because he is suing because people shared remarks he publicly made.

I also know that NCCM has tried to engage him, that this engagement has not been successful. I think there has to be a balance. We want to give people space to show change, but if they’re not demonstrating the work, if they’re not engaging the community, then I think we have to think about what are our system is doing that allow people to stay in those roles, what are the checks happening that allow a person to go into that role or the lack of checks?

I also think about contrasting that with the recent nomination of Sharif Haji to the NDP riding of Decore. Mr. Haji is the Executive Director of the Africa Centre, an incredible individual who has demonstrated years of work to the community, to affordable housing, and, you know, seven or eight years ago made a remark on Twitter that was taken out of context and the public backlash against that and how it contrasts.

I think those two things need to be studied and addressed, and we need to reflect deeply. Why is it that the Black candidate is held to a different standard and vilified in an altogether more pronounced way when they have taken practical steps to show change, and the person who has not taken practical steps maintains their job and maintains their position?

[Translation]

Senator Simons: Could you tell me a bit about the work you are currently doing in Alberta for a more just society?

[English]

Ms. Nkaili: Are you asking the work I’m doing as a person? I used to be involved with Islamic Family Social Services Association as a board member for a few years. That was my contribution as a Muslim to an association that does make a difference, and it’s very unique. I haven’t seen something similar anywhere in Canada, and that does provide services that are more sensitive to our culture, to our religion, and does address some of the things that the regular system would not address.

There is a lot of work that still needs to be done. Something that Ms. Adem mention today that sticks with me. That when a child is taken to foster care, there’s nothing in the system that takes into account the faith of that child and the culture and everything else that comes with it, so the child is treated like anybody else. So those checks in the system that are not there, and it’s not tracked. It’s not addressed. Those are some things that an organization like IFSSA is trying to address but there is need for funding, need for more support, and there are definitely some challenges.

As an individual, I make my contribution through volunteering. Of course, I have a family, I have a child who’s two years old, so it’s keeping me a little bit busy right now, but that’s my contribution.

Senator Simons: Do I have time for one more question?

The Chair: Sorry, senator. We have Senator Arnot, and I have a question I’d like to ask too.

Senator Arnot: I just want to say to the witnesses thank you for your courage and your passion in coming here today and informing committee about the issues that we have to face and certainly recommendations that we might make.

I would just like to make a comment that Canada has been described as the most successful experiment in pluralism the world has never seen, and that was by the Aga Khan in 2010 when he came to Canada, and I think he is absolutely right, but there is a fragility attached to that observation directly related to the knowledge, understanding, commitment all Canadians have to our multicultural, multi-theistic, multi-ethnic country. In fact, that isn’t very strong.

In I think it was 2018, an Ipsos poll revealed that only 38% of the cohort over the age 40 embraced multiculturalism which is a fundamental to what it means to be Canadian.

Our success has been very good, but it’s directly related to the investment that we made to be successful, and that investment has not been enough. It’s very clear. I think that governments in the past must have somehow hoped by osmosis or by some magic that Canadians would be embraced, Canadians would be seen as equal, and that hasn’t happened, so we need that kind of investment, much more aggressive investment, in the future than we’ve had in the past, and I’m hoping that can come in education.

This is a longer term, but in a K-to-12 system where you teach Canadian citizens, every Canadian citizen, the rights of citizenship but, more importantly, the responsibility that comes with those rights. One of the main responsibilities is that every Canadian citizen must respect their fellow Canadian citizens without exception, and that needs to change.

I’m hoping that a new approach in education can make a difference so that the systemic discrimination faced by Muslim Canadians, the hate and the racism can be eliminated by a greater understanding.

I subscribe to the idea that there are five competencies to Canadian citizenship. There are probably many, but I say all Canadian citizens should be ethical, enlightened, engaged, empowered, and empathetic, and particularly empathetic, because Canadians need to understand the place that their fellow citizens are and make adjustments to make sure that there truly is an inclusion and real equity in this country.

Thank you for coming today and giving us your observations, and any comments you might make on what I’ve just said, I’d really appreciate any feedback.

The Chair: Yes, Mr. Yaqub.

Mr. Yaqub: I think Ms. Mohamed spoke about education very eloquently. Since 2020, one of the things she’s been working on is getting inclusive holidays recognized in the school calendar. In 2020, the Edmonton Public School Board shortened the school year by five days, and they chose to give parents and students these longer breaks in November.

I think on the surface that seems like a non-event, but if we dig deeper, what is happening there? Why haven’t they chosen to recognize the holidays of students?

Functionally, if you actually look at what’s happening at Edmonton public school, the days of Eid are non-instructional days because there are double-digit absences. What is happening in administration is they’re not recognizing that, they’re not seeing it as important, and they’re choosing instead to choose holidays that are more preferential to their holiday breaks. That would be a cynical but maybe not implausible take on what is happening.

Why is that happening, right? Probably because it hasn’t happened to them. They never have had to go through the experience of asking for a day off for their religious celebration, of having to be “othered,” and that, to me, is problematic.

I really appreciate the remark you were saying about needing empathy, and I think about empathy and relating it to this phrase, “it shouldn’t have to happen to you for it to matter to you.”

What we see happening in schools is, because it’s not happening to decision makers, the superintendents, it’s they’re not prioritizing something as simple and as obvious as inclusive holidays.

The Chair: Thank you. I will ask a question, and then I will just give Senator Jaffer a brief moment. The clerk has just informed me we have to finish by 2:35 p.m.

First of all, I wanted to thank all the witnesses. And, Ms. Adem, when you said you’re not prepared, you were more prepared than anybody else because you spoke from the heart, and that’s what matters. And my sister, Ms. Mohamed, you too. When you sit and share your bare emotions and you’re not afraid, that is very powerful, and that’s what we will take from Edmonton.

I have to tell you that one of the reasons I proposed this study was the dismay with which I watched what was happening in Edmonton with the Black Somali young women. Their hijabs were pulled off, they were spat on, coffee poured on them and they were physically assaulted. I thought, as a Muslim woman, what good am I sitting where I’m sitting if I can’t come and speak on behalf of my sisters? I want to thank you for your testimony. It was very powerful, and I’ll carry it with me.

Mr. Yaqub, I want to put you in a slightly difficult position. Since you are with the family and social services association, can you tell me about Muslims who are being incarcerated?

Mr. Yaqub: Thank you. That’s an excellent question. Something startling that is right there in the open is looking at StatsCan correction data. StatsCan correction data shows a 20% increase in the number of Muslims in prison between 2014 and 2018. To put that into another perspective, Muslims are 3% of the Canadian population and 7.5% of the prison population. That, to me, is alarming. It’s shocking. We don’t have enough reasons and enough research to know why that is.

Our organization is doing work on the public chaplaincy option. In 2013, the government at that time eliminated public chaplaincy, and what that’s done is it’s put Muslim and other faith minority communities at a significant disadvantage. The Muslims in prison don’t have access to basic supports at a time when they need it most. That’s one area where I think there’s significant work we need to do.

And then I also think, as Ms. Adem, Ms. Mohamed, and Ms. Nkaili all pointed out, we need to be thinking about the reasons they’re in prison in the first place.

The Chair: Thank you very much. And before I turn to Senator Jaffer for the final question, I have to share with you that those of us sitting in the Senate and Senator Jaffer is laughing — we do not get days off for our religious holidays. So there have been Eid’s when I’ve been sitting in Ottawa and my family has been sitting in Ontario, and Senator Jaffer’s family has been sitting in B.C. At all levels, there is some work for all of us to do.

Senator Jaffer, I will turn to you for a brief question, because the clerk sits next to me and keeps reminding me of the time.

Senator Jaffer: I’ll have a private conversation with you, but, first of all, you remind me of a younger me, where you have more guts and that gets you into trouble. Senator Simons is laughing because I get in trouble now, too. That’s why she is laughing.

Perhaps you should write a pamphlet for younger people, so they know that having guts is not a bad thing.

On the side, I want you to think about something. I am working on a bill about people who’ve been sent to prison at a young age or in foster care at a young age and then they end up in prison and are deported. If you have or know of any cases, let me know. I want to talk to you about that. Thank you, and thank you, chair, for indulging me.

The Chair: Thank you very much. I want to thank all of you all for your testimony and participation in this study. Your assistance is greatly appreciated and will really help us as we get to the stage of writing the report.

Honourable senators, I shall now take this opportunity to introduce our second panel of witnesses. Each witness has been asked to make an opening statement of five minutes. We shall hear from all witnesses and then turn to questions from senators. So witnesses, five minutes, but I will be very lenient and let you maybe go six, seven minutes, but not beyond that, and I hate to interrupt, so please make it easy for me. Thank you.

From the Sisters Dialogue, we have Wati Rahmat, the Founder and Director; from the Bent Arrow Traditional Healing Society, we have Vernon Boldick, Promotions and Communications Coordinator; we have Ibrahim Karidio, Engineer, City of Edmonton; and we have Temitope Oriola, who is a professor of criminology, sociology, University of Alberta, and President-Elect, Canadian Sociological Association.

I will now ask Ms. Rahmat to make her presentation, and I want to thank each and every one of you for being patient as we went slightly over time in the last panel.

Wati Rahmat, Founder and Director, Sisters Dialogue: Thank you. I’ll start off with an introduction of Sisters Dialogue. Sisters Dialogue is a new grassroots organization based in Treaty 6 with the aim of providing culturally safe spaces and supports for racialized Muslim women and girls through an intersectional, collaborative, and women-centred framework.

It was created in February 2021 in direct response to the spree of attacks on Muslim women, particularly Black Muslim women, here in Edmonton. We amplify the voices of those impacted, advocate for safety and well-being, and empower Muslim women with resources and supports to better their quality of life. Sisters Dialogue was also borne of the need for Muslim women to lead initiatives directly affecting our own well-being.

We take a proactive approach in responding to communities impacted by violence and harm through effective community-based, culturally safe, and victim-centred interventions.

To date, Sisters Dialogue has organized and facilitated workshops and healing circles, supported numerous victims of Islamophobia by sending care packages, connecting them with appropriate resources such as free sessions with culturally appropriate therapists, or guiding them through reporting to the relevant authorities.

Our projects have included panel discussions on Islamophobia, healing circles with art therapy, and a community safe walk pilot in collaboration with the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues where Muslim women who feel unsafe could sign up to walk with a trained community volunteer at Edmonton SafeWalk.

Today, on behalf of Sisters Dialogue, I would like to address the strategies for anti-Islamophobia. If we look at the current strategies and work on anti-Islamophobia, the focus has largely been on research, data collection, education and awareness, addressing systemic issues, and advocacy for legislative changes.

While research and advocacy work is still much needed to move the needle on issues such as Bill 21 in Quebec, creating legislation to curb online hate, the banning of hate symbols, collection of race-based data, reducing barriers to reporting, and reducing the threshold for what is considered a hate crime.

At Sisters Dialogue, we believe there is a need to reframe how we address Islamophobia. We need to approach Islamophobia as a disease. Islamophobia is a menace that causes physical, mental, emotional, and social harm. Due to its multifaceted nature, its impact is not limited to the individual directly experiencing it. So the question is, what steps are we currently taking to eliminate this disease and what is missing?

As I’ve mentioned previously, the current strategies of various levels of government and advocacy groups have taken are thought-based in nature. We are investigating educating, spreading awareness, and developing legislation, all of which are important, but we’re missing a crucial piece: the people. A disease has its victims, and there is no proper infrastructure and protocol to protect those affected by the plague of Islamophobia.

Due to the lack of focus on the victims of Islamophobia, there is a gap in services available in the immediate sense directly after an attack as well as the long-term. I also recommend that we broaden the definition of “victims of Islamophobia” because we cannot ignore the vicarious impacts on all Muslims when there is an Islamophobic attack or incident.

Once we accept the vicarious impacts of Islamophobia, we can then begin to accurately provide appropriate supports to those most requiring it. In the context of Edmonton, the primary victims of Islamophobia attacks have been Muslim women, particularly Black Muslim women, due to the intersectionality of race and gender. Because Muslim women are being targeted, there is an urgent need to provide them with supports in order to protect their overall safety, well-being, and mental health.

At Sisters Dialogue, we recognize this need and have held a number of healing circles with diverse groups of Muslim women. With each session, we saw the dire need for more of these safe healing spaces, including community care and culturally appropriate mental health supports. Muslim women in Edmonton are fearful. They are constantly living with anxiety and hyper-vigilance due to the ongoing Islamophobic incidents of which only a few have gained media attention.

To the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights, our ask is that any recommendations on Islamophobia should include community services, programs, and mental health supports specifically for Black and racialized Muslim women. We also need to expand the definition of who is a victim of Islamophobia so that we can extend help to those vicariously impacted.

In closing, I would like to add that Muslim women are more likely to be victims due to gendered Islamophobia and due to the existing barriers like systemic patriarchy in our Muslim communities. There should be an intentional focus to amplify Muslim women’s voices and support organization and initiatives led by Muslim women. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much. I will now turn to you, Mr. Boldick, for your presentation.

Vernon Boldick, Promotions and Communications Coordinator, Bent Arrow Traditional Healing Society: Tansi. Today I’m deeply honoured and humbled to be able to speak to you as a representative from Bent Arrow Traditional Healing Society. I step forward to speak in substitution of our Executive Director, Cheryl Whiskeyjack.

Bent Arrow has operated in Treaty 6 territory for the last 28 years with the mission of connecting Indigenous children, families, and youth to their own cultural world and the western world so that they may not only walk in both but thrive.

Over this time, we have learned many lessons that have helped our organizations become a leading agency and a cornerstone in the Edmonton community. Today, I wish to speak to you on three of those lessons that pertain to addressing Islamophobia in Canada. They are connecting to the sacred, colonization and Islamophobia, and utilizing hyper-local media.

To address Islamophobia, you must address the same cause of hate and discrimination toward Indigenous people, and that the cause is the breakdown of connection to the sacred.

When we speak to connecting to the sacred, we mean to connect not only to one another but to those who came before us and those to come, who will build bridges that we cannot conceive of; to the communities that give us a place to belong; to the land we walk on and whose resources we use every day; to the sky whose air we breathe and rely on for life. When we speak to the sacred, we speak of a humble love that says build for tomorrow, and that build starts within our own communities.

One way Bent Arrow chooses to connect to the sacred is on a four-day cultural camp every June. Here, we welcome staff, community partners, agencies, and their community. Together as Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, we celebrate and participate in Indigenous culture. We sing, dance, listen to elders, participate in sweats, feast, and connect to the sacred.

I would ask the committee to call for an increase in funding to Islamic agencies and organizations so that they can host more community events like Bent Arrow’s cultural camp. Allowing these agencies and organizations to help connect those communities to live in the sacred.

Bent Arrow works alongside Islamic Family greeting new Canadians at the airport. This is done for many reasons, one being the perceived negative ideas some new Canadians have to Indigenous people. To combat with these ideas alongside with Islamic Family, we greet these individuals with ceremony. Their first interaction with Indigenous Peoples is one of sharing and celebrating culture. It is the reason a Bent Arrow staff member was approached by a young Muslim woman while she was enjoying a walk and told, “I remember you. You greeted my family when we came to Canada, and I was no longer afraid.”

The beautiful and touching moment was only made possible due to two organizations working together with a common goal. Had there been no partnership, a young woman would have arrived in fear and concerned about Canada’s First Peoples. If we took a look at the citizenship exam she took to become a Canadian citizen, we do not see the rich tradition of the Indigenous people that she experienced at the airport.

Moving on from Islamophobia cannot be done without working toward reconciliation. The two are intertwined, and I ask the Senate committee to voice the importance of having Islamic organizations like Islamic Family collaborate with Indigenous organizations like Bent Arrow.

An unfortunate reality is news media and social media become vectors for Islamophobia and hate of all kinds. These algorithms that send us our news stories or posts from sites like Facebook are very much in their infancy. The power they will have in 15, 30, or even 50 years should alarm us all.

I wish to discuss the value of funding and supporting hyper-local media. The average Canadian is more likely to see stories about the United States than they are about the work that is being done in their own postal code. This comes back to a breakdown in connection to the sacred. When these stories we see are not our own, we lose touch with our reality and forget to see the humanity in our neighbours.

I ask the committee to amplify the voices of hyper-local media, aid them in educating and informing the people in their own communities about what is happening. The sacred include the parks where we take our children and the ground that supports our homes. It can be protected and warmed by the stories we hear about one another in our own communities. These hyper-local voices need to be raised because they are being drowned out by a never-ending stream of clickbait, rage-bait media designed to separate us. Thank you. Hiy hiy.

The Chair: Thank you. I will now turn to Mr. Ibrahim Karidio for your presentation. Thank you.

[Translation]

Ibrahim Karidio, Engineer, City of Edmonton, as an individual: [Another language spoken]. In the name of God, the merciful and compassionate [another language spoken], may peace be upon you.

I would like to begin by thanking you for inviting me to testify before this standing Senate committee responsible for issues relating to human rights and more specifically to a fundamental issue that affects the entire fabric of Canadian society, not to say of the human race: Islamophobia.

My name is Ibrahim Karidio. I am of African descent; born in Niger, educated on three continents — Africa, Europe and America — and adopted by Canada for over 35 years now. I am multilingual: I speak French, English, Djerma and a little Hausa. I am a professional engineer, a manager of a research centre and an entrepreneur. I am a community leader, involved in the activities of several communities: our community associations, school associations, sports associations, and so on. I am a soccer coach. Finally, I am also a Muslim and a father.

It doesn’t matter how scholars define it, for me and our communities, Islamophobia is a blind and unjustified fear of the other, which leads the Islamophobe to lack respect and consideration toward Muslims or those who appear Muslim. This fear or phobia leads to a downright dehumanization of the Muslim, the denial of their primary rights to a life without fear of aggression and derision, without fear of humiliation and without having to bear this heavy burden of constant justification just for daring to exercise one’s human right to be able to peacefully practice one’s religion according to one’s own conscience, as it should be, and without fear of repercussions, such as exclusion, discrimination and aggression.

This Islamophobia exists in Canada and elsewhere. It affects many Muslims, especially those who are visible through their dress, their practice, their diet, or any other visible action that is different or incomprehensible to non-Muslims.

This Islamophobia manifests itself in the refusal to hire us into positions in line with our skills, to grant us the same opportunities as our peers, or to promote us to the positions of responsibility that we deserve.

This Islamophobia manifests itself in the refusal to allow us to live in the neighbourhood of our choice, through the increased and continuous mistrust of us, through the ghettoization of our children in schools that are often substandard and very often in bad shape.

This Islamophobia manifests itself in the blind and inhuman violence against veiled girls and women or even those who are just dressed differently; the very people who seek only to survive or are doing whatever it takes to contribute positively to the well-being of their families and of Canadian society. It is this awful violence that has disfigured and rendered toothless innocent women who dared to look different; violence against peaceful people in their sanctuaries, their mosques, where they have come to recharge their batteries and pray to the Almighty for their spiritual well-being and for the well-being of the community, of Canada and of humanity in general.

I am not just talking about myself, but also about all those often voiceless people without means whom we represent, as fathers or as community leaders. I speak here for all those innocent victims for whom we are often called upon to shed tears because we are unable to defend them in a timely, effective and adequate manner.

Factors that cause or influence Islamophobia in Canada are many. There is the ignorance of Islam and Muslims. There is the misrepresentation of Islam and Muslims in the media, which often speak about Islam only in negative contexts. Often in the same report, Islam is wrongly quoted with all kinds of pejorative, negative and violent words. A study by the University of Alberta confirmed what others have also mentioned, that:

...the vocabulary used in reporting on Islam was mainly negative in connotation and gave great importance to words concerning politics, militarism and violence, rather than to terms focusing on assistance, religion and collectivism.

Other factors that contribute to Islamophobia are: the bad intentions and bad faith of some people toward Islam and Muslims; wrong assumptions about Muslims, who are overwhelmingly peace-loving and tolerant; economic disparities causing the poverty and marginalization of many Muslims; the lack of clear laws to prevent and deter those who inflict their hatred and injustice on innocent people; the lack of accommodation for Muslims to be able to do their religious duties such as prayers when they should be done and in certain team sports for female athletes because of the non-flexibility in the uniform codes.

There is also the lack of respect and accommodation for their food requirements and their religious holidays, forcing some Muslims to break certain rules by missing school or work during their holiday period, and also forcing some not to participate in events of collective rejoicing because they cannot consume the food and drinks offered to them.

Here are some ways and means to fight against Islamophobia, if only to reduce its perverse, violent and aggressive effects: a major awareness campaign for the Canadian population to better understand what Islam really is and especially to provide it with a better appreciation of the impact of Islamophobia on innocent Muslim victims and on Canadian society as a whole; potentially criminal law reform, or a strengthening of the law, to make all those who are guilty of Islamophobia subject to a deterrent sentence. This reform should be followed by an information, education and awareness campaign for the population, so that it can understand the issues and the legal repercussions for those who are guilty of Islamophobia.

There should be an increase in the resources of law enforcement and security services to counter those who spread hateful Islamophobic and racist messages on cyber media and social networks, and increased awareness building for mainstream media on the impact of their biased reporting on Islam and Muslims. These media used two and a half times more terms with negative connotations — such as violence, extremist, exclusion — than terms with positive connotations — such as collectivism, assistance, security — in their reporting on Islam. Once again, I cite the report from the University of Alberta.

Law enforcement should also be provided with better training and awareness building to avoid profiling, conflation and, above all, false assumptions about Muslims and Islam. Better awareness campaigns should be provided for educators and administrative officials, so that they can get out of their unhealthy posture of discrimination and exclusion toward Muslims. Accommodation should be provided for Muslims in schools and other institutions — such as retirement homes, hospitals, prisons, and so on — to enable them to pray with dignity in a healthy and appropriate place and to eat appropriate halal food.

I am also thinking of the defence of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms by the federal government and possibly by provincial governments, so that discriminatory and Islamophobic laws, whatever their intention, cannot be applied in Canada. A database for hate crimes and those guilty of hate crimes could be created and made accessible to the population and to the competent authorities and would help better monitor this pernicious phenomenon. That database must be visible and the data must be listed by provinces, region, neighbourhood and even by location to enable potential victims to avoid certain places and locations. An autonomous authority — in addition to the police, but independent of the police — could be created to report hate crimes. That would help eliminate the bias of certain elements of law enforcement.

Finally, there should be an increase in measures to support and eliminate poverty among the most vulnerable classes in order to allow their social and economic integration into Canadian society. The marginalization of Muslim women and Muslim men should also be reduced, so that they can enter the workforce without discrimination or prejudice.

I could keep going, but given the amount of time I have, I will stop here. Thank you for your time and attention, and thank you so much for this opportunity.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much. We turn to our final witness, Temitope Oriola. The floor is yours.

Temitope Oriola, Professor of criminology and sociology at the University of Alberta and the president-elect of the Canadian Sociological Association, as an individual: Thank you very much, madam chair, distinguished senators, fellow panellists, and staff working behind the scenes. My name is Temitope Oriola. I’m a Professor of criminology at the University of Alberta and the president-elect of the Canadian Sociological Association. My research encompasses police use of force and terrorism studies. I am here as a concerned citizen.

Despite robust and sometimes inconsistent scholarly debates, I find Schiffer and Wagner’s description of Islamophobia quite didactic. They describe Islamophobia as a new form of racism or cultural racism targeting the Muslim community.

Now, according to scholar Sabri Ciftci, the term Islamophobia was first officially recognized by the Stockholm International Forum on combatting intolerance in January of 2001. Ciftci argues that when individuals feel threatened by the physical and cultural presence of Muslims, they associate Muslims with terrorism. And I should add that, in the same year, 2001, the United Nations asked that Islamophobia be recognized in the same way that we generally recognize antisemitism.

The Runnymede Trust in its report, Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, defines Islamophobia as:

. . . unfounded hostility towards Islam. It refers also to the practical consequences of such hostility and unfair discrimination against Muslim individuals and communities and to the exclusion of Muslims from mainstream political and social affairs.

In the 2015 to 2016 academic year, a student in my 400-level sociology of terrorism seminar, a Canadian Muslim of Middle Eastern background, informed me about an encounter with a man he believed was a security agent at a mosque in Edmonton. My student felt that the man was trying to sound him out regarding whether he had extremist views or sympathies. The questions posed by the man made the student uncomfortable and seemed like an attempt to bait toward terrorism. He felt both unsafe and alarmed. He stopped going to this particular mosque because of the incident.

That student is now a lawyer. Now, what would have happened if he had fallen for that bait? Being quite young at the time, what if world events had been fuzzy on his impressionable mind and he had questions about wars in Muslim countries. What would that have led to?

This is reminiscent of the case of John Nuttall and Amanda Korody. Publicly available evidence suggests that the RCMP spent approximately $1 million to investigate their case. Nuttall and Korody, as you may recall, had planted pressure cooker bombs at the B.C. legislature in 2013.

I’m skipping a bunch of things in order to save time.

Their conviction was eventually overturned, but the judge in that case, Justice Catherine Bruce, found at court that police had entrapped Nuttall and Korody.

The idea is not that every terrorism investigation is entrapment. The idea is that we have to be wary of the dangers of Islamophobia which create institutional tendencies and proclivities toward discrimination against select members of the Muslim community.

In citing these two cases — the case of my former student and the case of Nuttall and Korody — my aim is to call attention to the institutional dimension and the context of Islamophobia within the security services post-9/11. The texture of such institutional practices not only harms the Muslim community, it also endangers national security.

Now, there’s a growing consensus in scholarly literature that, while security services deployed enormous financial and human resources to track jihadist-related terrorism, they developed a blind spot toward right-wing extremist actors such as incels or the involuntary celibates like Alek Minassian, the young man who killed ten of our citizens in Toronto in 2018, readily comes to mind, and, of course, there’s an ongoing investigation around involvement of some serving and retired police officers and some members of the Canadian Armed Forces Forces and their participation in the freedom convoy.

There are other consequences of Islamophobia that are suffered by the Muslim community beside the fact that it could lead to blind spots in national security and allow other forms of racism to arise and spread, metastasize, because our attention is diverted elsewhere.

Now, this includes egregious forms of violence and gratuitous mundane maltreatment. The case of Nathaniel Veltman and the June 6, 2021, killing of the Afzaal family in London, Ontario, definitely shocks the conscience. We have to ask ourselves how a 20-year-old could harbour such hatred to the point of fatality hitting a family with his truck.

Apart from such spectacular cases, there are multiple instances of psychologically unremarkable people engaged in Islamophobia. Here in Edmonton, there have been unprovoked attacks on hijabi Black Muslim women. Their only offence was their multilayered identities as women, Black persons, and Muslims. This intersection of identities now appears to be a lethal cocktail targeted by Islamophobes. I hasten to add that the perpetrators are not monsters. They are regular everyday people, and that is precisely what makes such cases particularly troubling.

How might we respond as a society? First, we need to recognize the multiple dimensions of Islamophobia. The macro, meso, and micro levels. These three levels require clinical and well-calibrated action. At the macro-sociological level, education is key. That has already been emphasized on this panel. Islamophobia is fuelled, partly, by perceptions of Muslims as the physical and cultural threat. Research suggests higher education reduces the magnitude of Islamophobia; therefore, educating the public is key.

Public awareness about Muslims in Canada, their embeddedness and the investment in the fabric of our society in a regular and unspectacular portrayal as neighbours, as parents, as friends, classmates, firefighters, professors, police officer, and so on, is crucial.

We must make efforts to mitigate the temptation toward a dangerous synecdoche, where one offender is held up in the public imaginary as the ambassador of millions of people. Various school curricula from kindergarten level also need to be examined. Children’s programs and cartoons require greater scrutiny vis-à-vis the attitudes they promote.

This, in essence, is an ideational workload that is necessary to combat generations of misperceptions and misrecognitions.

Laws and policies also need to specifically recognize, name, and seek to obliterate manifestations of Islamophobia and other forms of racism. This includes hiring practices, salaries, and promotions among others. A salary review to address pay disparity in the federal public service is one way to ensure justice for those who have been disadvantaged by various forms of racism, including Islamophobia and anti-Black racism. Security agencies and law enforcement also need to have a diverse and well-informed leadership and rank-and-file to avoid the strategic inertia and indifference that led to an almost exclusivist focus on jihadist while right-wing extremists such as the Proud Boys and Three Percenters and so forth brazenly developed and disseminated their ideologies.

We also need to have effective reporting systems, follow-ups, and efficient victims’ services to tackle the everyday manifestations of Islamophobia at work and on the streets.

This point has been made already, the powerlessness that victims of Islamophobia are often facing, so I’m going to skip a bunch of things and move on to the fact that the police and other public services should be required to take reports of Islamophobia seriously whether or not there is physical injury.

Finally, I would like to end with a quote from the Madiba, Nelson Mandela. In his autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom, Mandela states, and I’m quoting him now:

No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin or his background or his religion. People must learn to hate. And if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much. We have a list of senators who want to ask questions, and I will start with Senator Simons to be followed by Senator Jaffer.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. You know, it strikes me that we’ve heard today really about three specific and different kinds of Islamophobia. We’ve heard about the devastating consequences of attacks on especially Black hijabi women, many of them carried out, I’m very sad to say, by members of Edmonton’s Indigenous community, several of whom were homeless, dealing with mental illness, and were themselves victims of a system that has failed them but had nonetheless targeted Black hijabi women as easy targets to take out their own frustrations.

We’ve heard about what you might call a White supremacist aligned kind of Islamophobia, whether that is coming from organized groups like the Sons of Odin or the Three Percent or the people who are aligned with the convoy, and yellow vest movements or just, you know, Freemen on the Land, lone wolf kinds of Islamophobes.

But then Mr. Oriola has reminded us of a different kind of equally important Islamophobia which is the quiet systemic bias baked into our policing services and our security services at the airport, our government services.

These seem to me in a strange way to be three different kinds of Islamophobia that may require three different kinds of solutions.

So with that rather long preamble, I want to start by first asking Mr. Boldick. What can we do — beyond the things that you’ve cited, going to the airport to greet people and having events — to ensure that frustrated Indigenous Edmontonians, especially those who are without housing and who are dealing with mental illness, don’t end up targeting Muslim women? We’ll start there.

Mr. Boldick: Thank you. I think that’s a large question and there’s a lot to put into it, and a lot of it has been talked about today with my fellow witnesses here, hearing about how it’s baked into our systems. We do not allow these individuals a chance to survive. We heard about how racism and Islamophobia are ingrained in our socioeconomic ways. Individuals do not have an opportunity to move out of a class, whether it’s a lower class or a middle class. Often these individuals, whether it’s from residential schools, traumas or the ‘60s Scoop, they never had an opportunity, and if you do not have opportunity, you are going to turn to anything to get out that rage that lives inside you. So, we need to have opportunity for these individuals. We need to meet them where they’re at.

Like I said in my piece, it’s to connect to the sacred, to give them an opportunity to connect to their own culture, connect with their own spirituality, and connect with their own community. If you take community away from people, if you take their identity away from them, they have no opportunity, and that is what we need to ensure they grow up in a system that is going to work for them and not against them.

How? By creating funds, investing in community, and investing time and energy in people who have not had opportunities. I’m hoping that this is answering your question. I think that’s where the answer lies.

Senator Simons: I want to turn the question to Professor Oriola. One of your areas of academic expertise, I believe, has been looking at the way that people are radicalized, recruited, whether that’s into White supremacist groups or into Muslim terrorist groups like Boko Haram. What do we need to know about the way people are being radicalized whether that’s on social media or in small groups? What is the process that we need to confront so that angry young White men don’t become White supremacist terrorists and that angry young Muslim men don’t fall into the mirror trap?

Mr. Oriola: Thank you very much, senator. From my perspective, much of what we see with respect to online radicalization by right-wing extremist groups is partly a function of a superficial incapacitation of the security and law enforcement agencies.

It is, at the risk of being hyperbolic, a bit of a strategic choice. If a bunch of young Muslim men went online and spewed the kinds of statements that some of these young White males did, typing out online, on their phones and websites that we’re all familiar with, they would be apprehended, arrested, almost immediately. It’s a choice that the law enforcement agencies are making to not go after these individuals.

The misogyny, the racism, in some cases, acts of violence, that they are threatened online are sufficiently alarming that they could be picked up, and they would have been picked up were they of a different sort of identity.

Part of that is a threat perception that there are comments that are just seen as non-threatening, a kind of intersubjectivity that can’t be that serious, the boys will be boys’ kind of thing. Young Muslim men saying that online would be picked up almost immediately. I’d like us to recognize that. It’s a strategic choice that is being made by law enforcement agencies.

Having said that, there is also the reality of growing autonomization and individuation of society. That glue, that commonality increasingly is loosening; and, therefore, after two years of the pandemic in particular, we’ve had far too many people, a lot of them young people below the age of 30, who just stay in their own space essentially away from the rest of society and essentially self-radicalizing online. When you add into that mix a mammoth social media organization, whose algorithms are programmed in certain ways to feed you more of what you’ve already searched, you begin to live in this cocoon. Those individuals live in this cocoon, this bubble, consuming those same kinds of rhetoric and echo chamber of similarly situated social actors connected globally, and we know there are patterns to these things.

For instance, I’m thinking of the Isla Vista massacre 2014, Elliot Rodger, and then look at the rhetoric of Alek Minassian quoting Elliot Rodger and the young man in New Zealand who carried out the Christchurch massacre and all that. There’s rhetoric connecting them, and they are, in fact, stating their views in their individual manifestos. Several of them who wrote such manifestos cited one another. And it is the same with the individual who carried out the massacre in Norway in, I believe, 2011, if my memory serves me right.

These are connected. None of this is brand new anymore. It is a question of political will and appropriate allocation of resources to this area of priority. Whatever people prioritize, they pursue and put resources after it. That, for me, is the critical point.

Senator Simons: How concerned should we be when we see mainstream politicians blowing dog whistles that use much of the same rhetoric of replacement theory or ethno-White nationalism? How dangerous is it when we see politicians attempting to normalize this kind of speech?

Mr. Oriola: Senator, you’ve raised a very fundamental point, and I’m glad you mentioned that. Political rhetoric provides oxygen for much of what we see.

The Chair: Microphone.

Senator Martin: Sorry about that. I thought I was being helpful.

Mr. Oriola: I was sure I turned it on.

The state is ultimately the signifier, and individuals saddled with the responsibility of running the state or who hold significant, powerful positions, especially symbolically do shape hearts and minds in very fundamental ways. And so when such individuals staying in their cocoons begin to listen to the rhetoric coming out of the corridors of power and the dog whistles or the bull horn call, it only fuels their ideology because it serves as a rallying point. They’re being granted audiences in some cases by politicians. I’m avoiding the temptation of mentioning names. So, this definitely does play a role.

I believe what is required is a non-partisan approach where we recognize the danger that this poses for society and that we collectively say, no, this is not Canada, this is not who we are, and we will not stand for this regardless of political party affiliation.

What is happening is political opportunism; that these are blocks of votes, and folks are playing to that in order to have certain support at different corners of society and using the kind of language that they know these individuals would recognize. I believe that is what this looks like in the political realm.

Senator Simons: I would love a second round if there is one, but I cede the floor.

The Chair: Thank you. Senator Jaffer to be followed by Senator Martin.

Senator Jaffer: I want to follow up with what Senator Simons said with you, professor, and that is, you know, you talked about the different ways that you deal with the person who is not facing consequences when they are, you know, putting all these things online. Are you asking that we have tougher legislation? What are you asking for?

Mr. Oriola: I’m sorry. I missed that.

Senator Jaffer: Are you asking that we have tougher legislation, or what is your suggestion? Because you are a criminologist, how do we deal with it?

Mr. Oriola: Absolutely, yes.

The Chair: Microphone, yes.

Mr. Oriola: So, yes, because the last decade and a half has taught us that this is serious, that these words translate to actions on the streets, that the pejorative description of women online by this, for example, these Incel folks is manifesting in actual physical attacks on our streets. The Toronto van attack readily comes to mind. This is no longer theoretical.

Now, laws have to develop with society. I believe we have reached a watershed moment in online rhetoric that the laws do have to catch up. So that we begin to allow for certain structured and well-calibrated consequences for some of these actions. They’re no longer theoretical. Some of these individuals are going out to the real world to carry out attacks, to execute attacks, in society.

In saying so, I’m also, of course, cognizant of the need to protect fundamental freedoms as guaranteed by the Charter. And so a fine balance, I believe, can be achieved in doing that. There is, in fact, no right to be that abusive and threaten violence and all of that —

Senator Jaffer: I’m going to cut you there because I have so many questions, and the chair is not going to give me —. I got the idea. Thank you. Sorry.

Mr. Karidio, congratulations on your presentation. You said that Islamophobia is this blind and unjustified fear of the other which leads to Islamophobia, to lack respect and consideration. I think that’s the definition I’m going to use, but may I ask if you would consider to say that unjustified fear of the other makes Islamophobes do racist acts against the other? Isn’t that what Islamophobia is, or discrimination?

Mr. Karidio: Yes. I think they follow the same pattern of racism and discrimination. It’s the same pattern. Islamophobia in certain instances follows that.

As we all said, Islamophobia is a very complex issue to define, and it can be manifested in different ways. I think the most —

[Translation]

Senator Jaffer: Frankly, I have found for the first time a definition I like.

Mr. Karidio: Thank you very much.

Senator Jaffer: Because the definition was really complicated before. Thank you.

[English]

Mr. Boldick, I want to thank you for what you have set out in your paper. It’s a lot of food for thought in many different areas because what you are doing here is going to be very helpful, and I’m going to be thinking a lot about what you’ve said, so thanks a lot.

Ms. Rahmat, you’re doing very brave work in supporting women. It doesn’t look to an ordinary person it’s paid work, but you and I know it is. Supporting another sister is not easy within your own family, in the community. I have two questions. Does the federal government also support you or just the provincial?

Ms. Rahmat: Thank you. Like I said, Sisters Dialogue is a fairly new organization. We don’t have operational funding. I have a full-time job. Two of our board members are single mothers. We’re all women. We have come together because we want to help. So far we have received municipal and provincial funding, but they are for programming. We met with Randy Boissonnault, Member of Parliament, Edmonton Centre, and he has promised some stuff. I followed up with his staff, but I’ve not heard back. What we’re looking for is a start-up grant because, in addition to Islamophobia, Muslim women are facing systemic patriarchy. We have a lot of men who represent us, but in Edmonton context, women are the ones who are attacked, and we want to be the voice of what we want, the supports that we want. We are looking to actually employ someone. I’m a mom with three kids, and every evening and weekends I have meetings. I have a full-time job. If only we can get a start-up grant to get an office to have a full-time staff to support the work that we do. We’ve done a lot of work in the one year that we’ve been going. We have a safe walk program; we’ve done healing circles, and these are the things that women want.

Senator Jaffer: I’m sorry. The chair will cut me off. I’m blaming it on her, but I don’t mean to. Sorry. I will talk to you offline because that’s how we started ours and how we went about it.

Ms. Rahmat: Okay.

Senator Jaffer: I won’t take the committee’s time on this, but I want to thank all four of you. I want to say to you that even though it’s late in the afternoon — we’ve had two full days — you’ve given us so many ideas. Every panel has given us more ideas of what we can do. On my behalf, I want to thank you. Thank you, chair.

Senator Martin: Thank you, chair. And thank you to our witnesses. Actually, I was going to say that we’ve come to the end of a long day with this panel, but I feel more hopeful by what I’ve heard. So, Ms. Rahmat, thank you. My eyes are getting worse actually. I need new glasses.

The Chair: We’re all tired.

Senator Martin: What strikes me most of what you said is that we need to approach Islamophobia as a disease. Diseases can be treated with the right treatment and the approaches, and you quoted Nelson Mandela, you know, just how we are not born to hate. We learn these behaviours. You’ve given such inspiring words for us to end this afternoon’s session.

I was curious about the partnership you talked about, Mr. Boldick, with the Islamic Family, but the healing circles that Ms. Rahmat is talking about, I feel like there could be a collaboration there. Do you feel the same way?

Mr. Boldick: I actually do and I’m very thankful. I was ready at the end to pull out my business card and say let’s talk more, so you’re reading my mind, absolutely.

Ms. Rahmat: We do that because we do recognize that bridge-building work between the different communities is important.

Senator Martin: Yes.

Ms. Rahmat: We have relationships with Samson Cree Nation. We’ve held healing circles with Indigenous women, so that is part of one goal, and I’ll be happy to connect with Mr. Boldick to further their work.

Senator Martin: I saw that connection right away.

Ms. Rahmat: Thank you

Senator Martin: In your brief, Mr. Boldick, you talked about using hyper-local social media. I think that’s one of the keys for sure. There are also recommendations from other groups about government announcements that could — there’s advertising campaigns, and so it could be utilizing hyper-local media but also through government support, but I think the messaging will be key. I wonder if you wanted to say anything further about utilizing hyper-local media?

Mr. Boldick: Can you maybe specify more, what you are looking for?

Senator Martin: I’m thinking that it is important to have the media that is hyper-local to have clear messaging to cut through a lot of information. Other organizations have called on the Government of Canada to do advertising campaigns, so I was wondering do we need to do both? What kind of messaging would be important in combatting this disease?

Mr. Boldick: I think one kind of messaging that’s very important is talking again and making sure the message is that these events are happening, this is happening at your mosque, this is happening at your local agency. Come see. Come be with us. Come partake and invitations.

Our Executive Director, Cheryl Whiskeyjack, she is brilliant and I wish she was here because she speaks so much better than I do, but she talks about “call-in culture,” and I’d like to hear that within the hyper-local media, messages to “come in.”

When people come to Bent Arrow, they’re often afraid because they don’t know what to — they don’t know the protocol to smudge. They don’t know what to do. They’re afraid to ask. They’re afraid to look rude or to look like they’re insensitive. But what we try and say is that we’ll bring you in. Come in. That’s what that messaging needs to say; come on in. Don’t be afraid. You’re not going to make a fool of yourself. We’re going to teach you. We’re going to walk with you step by step, because that’s how you make connections.

I’ve talked so much about building community, and that’s how you do it. I would really like to see the messaging, have that ethos of calling in, welcoming in, being a part of and don’t be afraid, we’ll teach you.

Senator Martin: I agree with you. Very good. Thank you, chair.

The Chair: Thank you. I have a comment or maybe we could call it a question. Mr. Karidio, you talked about being judged about how you dress. We heard that in Vancouver also yesterday from a woman who is a professor who felt that every time she was seen in public, everyone just presumed that she was incapable of intelligent thought. We saw that with Bill 21 in Quebec with the teacher. You know, the message to the children was that, because she covers her head, she was incapable of teaching. Do you get that a lot? What is interesting is that when I’m in my traditional clothes, my clothes are never called traditional clothes; they’re called costumes. My children will roll their eyes and have a good laugh, you know, about the costume. I think that has been a coping mechanism for some young people is where they’ve learned to laugh at a lot of issues. You bring this interesting concept of being judged by what you wear, not by anybody taking the time to really find out what you’ve done and what you have achieved, which, I mean, everyone, all of you sitting before me, is a huge achievement.

Mr. Karidio: Thank you for the question. This is really appropriate. Actually, the reason to start even wearing my traditional clothes and going out came about from my daughter who actually decided after graduating from high school, on her own, without pressure, to wear a hijab and change her mode of dressing and all those things. She told me once, “Daddy, how are you going to understand and feel how she feels when she goes out when you are not the typical Muslim.”

Actually, I am a typical Muslim because the Muslim was everything. How would you feel, because you are not — you don’t wear — you don’t look like that? Then I decided, okay, in order for me to feel and be able to understand what is going on, I’m going to dress and go this way also. This is a natural costume we wear when we go and has nothing to do with anything.

If I want to present a presentation in my conferences, I bet people will listen more to me if I have a suit and tie, than if I dress this way. It’s only to show that it’s not how you look. In French, we say, “l'habit ne fait pas le moine.” So it’s not the way you dress that is actually expressing or the way you look that is expressing what is inside, even your inner content or your intellectual content is not reflective of how you dress.

The Chair: Thank you. Professor Oriola, my question to you is. About ten days ago I was at a conference, and after that we were sitting around with a colleague. A colleague from the other side — from the house side — turned to me and another racialized member and said, “well, as long as you people continue to live in silos, you know.” And I said, well, as long as you continue to ask us where we’re from, which is a question we get on a daily basis. That conversation got interrupted because somebody else came. How do we explain to people that it’s not that we want to live in silos; it’s just that sometimes we are made to feel that we don’t belong? When I’m asked where are you from and where I spent most of my life in Canada and the language you speak, and I almost feel like telling them, well, that’s the language we speak in Toronto now, because if you work around Toronto, 52% of people are speaking a language other than English. I think that sometimes the people in the biggest cities get it, but in some of the smaller cities, it’s harder. Any thoughts? How do you deal with this?

Mr. Oriola: That’s a very difficult one, senator. I think there’s a part of people in society that wants to understand things. It’s somewhat summarily without that depth, without any nuance. It is the way that people are able to make sense of a fast and complex world especially given the multicultural context that we’re talking about. They develop a shorthand in terms of how they understand social order. The one who looks this way or who looks another way, and they make assumptions, and a lot of these assumptions may have been proven wrong, but because it’s an index card that is etched in the memory, it is the way that they navigate the world. It’s the way that they make sense of the world.

But I always like to distinguish between this almost mundane and arguably, almost inconsequential, kinds of questions or encounters, and focus more on the more consequential ones in terms of employment, in terms of promotion, in terms of housing and whether you get a loan and what rate you receive and all of that, rather than the more mundane things, because every society deals with one form or the other of these kinds of issues.

I was born and raised in Nigeria and there are 252 ethnic groups there. There are all kinds of beliefs and all of that, none, of course, that are the direct equivalent of the fundamental racial issues of Euro-American societies. It doesn’t come close. But, nonetheless, we’ve got those issues everywhere.

My point is that at a praxeological level, at a policy level, our concern should be about the kinds of discriminatory practices and rhetoric that have consequences for people’s well-being, their employment, their health — the ones that are measurable, observable, and can be mitigated by policy or law.

It’s hard to legislate that people should be nice. I’m a realist. I see the world as it appears before me. Again, if somebody asks me, “oh, where are you from,” well, I will answer but be prepared to respond as well because I will ask you the same thing. But as long as that doesn’t translate into denial of opportunity, denial of promotion, I think that we should consider that just part of the broader context of the human condition.

The Chair: But isn’t it true that when you walk into a room when you dressed in a certain way, you look a certain way, the person has already made up their mind about you? I actually had a friend who was applying for a job, and every time she went, she would be denied. Then she had another friend go. Because she was told that the position is filled, and then when she got somebody else to check, who was not of an ethnic background, and they were told the position is still available. So sometimes it does work. One thing I learned in politics is that people judge you in the first 30 seconds that they see you. They judge you, they look at you, and they have already formed their judgment.

I will let the senator from Alberta, Senator Simons, have the last word.

Senator Simons: I sort of took it upon myself when I realized I was going to be asked to fill in on this committee to round up the best witness list I could. One of the things I really wanted to do was to make sure we heard from the people who reflected the full diversity of Edmonton’s Muslim community. Even then, we weren’t able to. I don’t think we had anybody from the Ismaili community, the Ahmadiyya community or anybody from Indonesia or Malaysia. It is very, very difficult to capture the full diversity. Canada is a multicultural country, but Islam is an incredibly multicultural faith. I’m wondering, when it comes to combatting Islamophobia — I would ask this question of Ms. Rahmat and Mr. Karidio primarily — when you don’t come from the dominant Muslim community, how hard is it to build that community engagement, to build those bridges, and for Islam, which is such a multifaceted faith, for people in Edmonton to pull together when there are such longstanding cultural and doctrinal differences within your own communities?

Mr. Karidio: Yes. I think this is a really good question. But I think if one is talking about Islam, every place I’ve been, I always tell them, I don’t care which part, wherever you are, you are Muslim, full stop. It doesn’t make a difference to me.

And I’ve lived in Prince George, where there is a significant diversity of people, I was able to unite people from different religions, get them to work and live together — not only with Muslims but with the rest of the community. Probably, I was the first one to arrange for Muslims to pray in the Knox United Church because we didn’t have a mosque at the time. I made it acceptable to them. And I remember that when the Prince George mosque was built, the priest, and person from the synagogue —

Senator Simons: The rabbi —

Mr. Karidio: Yes, the rabbi. They came. They actually almost cried because they were very happy that we have a mosque and because this was the first time there was a collaboration with all the faiths coming together. The Hamadia people, we consider them as brothers and sisters and we work together.

In Edmonton, the same thing. I usually go to different mosques to pray. I can pray in my house because Islam allows that to be done. Islam is the most inclusive and diverse religion, and I think — I sometimes say as a scientist — Islam is the most rational religion because it allows accommodation. It allows you to live with other people and adjust. It’s not difficult for me to socialize with Somalis. The same thing with Black communities. This is why sometimes, when I am asked where I am from, I say I’m from Niger. I don’t even like that. I was born in Niger, but I’ve been adopted by the global world, I would say.

Senator Simons: Thank you.

Mr. Karidio: It’s not a problem. Thank you.

Ms. Rahmat: Thank you for the question. I am from Singapore. As a Muslim I am an Indigenous marginalized person in Singapore itself, so I have never known how it is to be in the majority. Aside from the tribalism or racism or anti-Blackness within Muslim communities, I think there are things that we are trying to address ourselves. I think we are looking at the intra issues, but Islamophobia is something that has to be addressed separately.

As a community there is a lot of work that we can do to provide cohesion among us. Anti-Blackness is the main issue, but I want to focus here on Islamophobia. As a Muslim woman in Edmonton who has spoken to diverse groups of Muslim women, we are crying out that we need victim support services and to expand victim support services to those vicariously affected.

If you read up or search on Google, there is a lot of research articles on Islamophobia and radicalization — like the brother said, there’s so much being done — but we need more on victim support. So I am here, and I hope my voice is being heard. Thank you.

Senator Simons: It is. Thank you for sharing your voices and your story.

The Chair: Thank you. Your voice will certainly be heard. Everything you said is going to be a matter of record, and at the end of the study, there will be recommendations. Thank you.

I want to thank each and every one of you for coming and sharing your stories and your thoughts. I also want to recognize, Senator Simons, that Edmonton in the first census of 1871 had 13 Muslims living here of Scottish origin and, of course, the first mosque in North America. Edmonton does have a very proud history, and I’m delighted to be here. Actually, I spent a long time in Edmonton because my daughter did her PhD at the University of Alberta, so Edmonton is very close to my heart.

I thank each and every one of you. And, senators, that bring us to the end of today’s testimony, and it has been a long and emotional day for some of us. We heard some very emotional, thought-provoking testimony, so I want to take this opportunity to thank you. Senators, I want to thank you, and I want to thank our incredible staff because, without you, we’d be nothing.

Thank you very much and enjoy the rest of the day. The meeting has come to an end.

(The committee adjourned.)