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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS

EVIDENCE

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OTTAWA, Monday, October 3, 2022

The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met with videoconference this day at 4:11 p.m. [ET] to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to human rights generally.

Senator Salma Ataullahjan (Chair) in the chair.

[English]

The Chair: Honourable senators, I am Salma Ataullahjan, a senator from Toronto and chair of this committee. Welcome.

I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are participating in this meeting: Senator Arnot from Saskatchewan, Senator Gerba from Quebec, Senator Hartling from New Brunswick, Senator Jaffer from British Columbia and Senator Ravalia from Newfoundland and Labrador.

Our committee is studying Islamophobia under its general order of reference. Our study will cover, among other matters, the role of Islamophobia with respect to online and offline violence against Muslims, gender discrimination and discrimination in employment, including Islamophobia in the federal public service. Our study will also examine the sources of Islamophobia, its impacts on individuals — including mental health and physical safety — and possible solutions and government responses.

After holding two meetings in June in Ottawa, our committee held public meetings last month in Vancouver, Edmonton, Quebec City and Toronto. In addition, we visited mosques in each of those cities. Today, we continue our public meetings in Ottawa to hear from national organizations and representatives from other parts of our country.

Let me provide some details about our meeting today. This afternoon, we shall have two one-hour panels with a number of witnesses who have been invited. In each panel, we’ll hear from the witnesses and then senators will ask questions of the witnesses. At the conclusion of the public portion of our meeting, the committee will hold a short in camera meeting to discuss future business.

Now I will introduce our first panel of witnesses. Each witness has been asked to make an opening statement of about five minutes. We shall hear from all witnesses, and then turn to questions from senators. Witnesses, I ask you to stick to the time limit. As you can see, there are six senators sitting here, and we will all have questions. Also, if you feel that you missed something, you can always make a written submission to us.

From the Moncton Muslim Association, we welcome Abdal Khan. You have the floor, sir.

Abdal Khan, President, Moncton Muslim Association: Thank you very much. First of all, this is my first time. I am not sure what is expected in terms of my presentation here. I am the President of the Moncton Muslim Association and the Moncton Masjid, which opened almost 15 years ago. We take care of most of the Muslim community’s needs here in Moncton.

As I said, I’m not familiar with what I’m supposed to present, but I will give you some examples of what we deal with here when it comes to Islamophobia.

I have one typical example that’s more recent. During the last Ramadan, which was May of last year, I was at the mosque and there was somebody outside the mosque who started yelling obscenities and a lot of hateful words against Muslims. A few of them were “Go back to your country,” “You don’t pay taxes,” “What are you doing inside?” — it went on. He was a little bit intoxicated too, that’s what I assume. He was there, yelling obscenities outside the mosque. We tried to calm him down, but eventually I believe one of the neighbours called the RCMP and then he was gone. I’m not sure what happened after.

Things like that do happen. I think it’s because of Islamophobia in our communities.

I want to point out one thing: Instead of dealing with the after effects or cosmetic changes, we have to go to the root cause of this information. The example I gave you of the guy who outside the mosque saying that we don’t pay taxes — that is very absurd. We have to deal with the misinformation in the community. In Canada, in general, people are misinformed about immigrants who come to this country.

First of all, one thing I have observed that a lot of people think is that everyone who immigrates to Canada is most likely a refugee. We welcome all refugees, and we are proud, as Canadians, to bring refugees in and help them. But somehow they think that everybody comes in, they’re taking benefits and stuff like that. I think probably 95% of the immigrants who come here are not refugees. They are professionals in their fields who try to make a good professional life in Canada and have a better life. That’s why they move here.

Another example is — as he was saying — we don’t pay taxes and things like that. In general, people who have Islamophobia or harbour hate against Muslims feed on that misinformation. They feed on the information that is spread in the community about immigrants in general. That creates tropes, then they become organized and do silly things.

That’s what I would like to focus on. To eliminate Islamophobia — not only Islamophobia, but hate against immigrants or people of colour — we must educate people; eliminate misinformation from society; give them the right information and right numbers; talk about the contributions of Muslims, people of colour and immigrants who came to this country and how they can help build this country together.

We have to spend a lot of resources to spread the right information in the community and eliminate the wrong information that is prevailing and creating hate and Islamophobia. That’s what I would like to say. I will now pass to the next person.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Khan. Now, I would like to turn to Iman Abdallah Yousri, the Executive Director of the Ummah Mosque. You have the floor.

Imam Abdallah Yousri, Executive Director, Ummah Mosque and Community Centre: Thank you, Madam Chair, for the introduction.

I would like to speak about a few points briefly. For the Muslim community at this point in time, as we see a rise in Islamophobic attacks and many of the hate crimes against Muslims, it is extremely important for us to come up with a clear definition of “Islamophobia” since we do not have something that clearly defines what “Islamophobia” is about. We believe that is the foundation of moving a step further toward putting an end to anti-Muslim hate and anti-Muslim attacks.

That is one of the pivotal things we need to see happen. This is for the Senate to act upon. Without this, we would just be going around in circles, as we have seen in many cases.

One of the other important things that we wanted to point out is that hate crimes or hate speech are not clearly defined in the Criminal Code. We have seen terrible issues in Halifax and surrounding areas to a point that I want to mention one of the incidents that just manifests the importance of defining Islamophobia and hate crimes.

We have seen a CBC report about one of the elected officials in one of the municipalities around us in Nova Scotia speaking about mosques that need to be blown away and Qurans that need to be burned, or something like this. It was reported in social media and by CBC. Unfortunately, nothing happened as a consequence of these words despite the fact that it became public. We have seen officials saying, “It is not a crime to be racist; it is not considered a crime to say such things,” which also then keeps us in these loops and gives the Muslim community a kind of sense that it is more about trying to find comfort for people with words. However, the willingness to have concrete actions in place is not there. These things are reported and commented on publicly for you to have a say in.

The other important area — which I’ve seen some have done lots of work around — is the federal institutions like the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada and the services and work that they do. There are lots of Muslim communities, individuals and activists who are talking about discrimination against Muslim institutions — charities, mosques, youth centres — and different institutions dealing with different parameters and different rules for Muslim charities, Muslim activists, imams and religious figures. This is another important question raised by the Muslim community, whether in the East or the West. Thank you. I appreciate your work.

The Chair: Thank you, Iman Yousri. I failed to mention that Iman Yousri is speaking to us from the beautiful city of Halifax. Iman, I was there about six weeks ago. Thank you for joining us.

Now we have from the Sabeel Muslim Youth and Community Centre, Mostafa Hanout. You have the floor.

Mostafa Hanout, Vice-Chairman, Sabeel Muslim Youth and Community Centre: Thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate that. I’m full of positivity about this meeting. I don’t have any similar experience before such meetings, but I’m full of positivity. I always regarded Canada as one of the most reputable countries in terms of protecting the rights of minority communities, and I’m very optimistic about the outcomes of this meeting and any other effort that goes along the same road to address the problem of Islamophobia.

I agree with what was previously mentioned by Mr. Khan and Iman Abdallah Yousri. I have some first-hand experience. It’s not at all about personal experience, of course, because the Islamophobia problem is well recognized. We’ve seen some devastating consequences of this hate. We’ve seen innocent people, innocent worshippers being killed. It’s not really about my personal experience, but I will share this personal experience that happened to my daughter in a school just to highlight what’s going on and also to give us some thoughts on what we need to do.

My daughter is a high-schooler and one of the students in her class has very negative thoughts about Islam and is very Islamophobic. He would tell her things like, “Do you have a bomb in your bag?” — stuff like that. Until one day he actually physically attacked her and pulled her veil forcibly off her head. This student was suspended for one day. He didn’t repeat the action against my daughter afterwards. He still carried the same thoughts, has still made the same comments and shared the same sentiments with other students, which brings us to thinking what should be done to address that.

I second Iman Yousri for what he suggested — that there should be a free-standing provision to the Criminal Code that mandates some action towards similar hateful or Islamophobic actions if we really are to address the problem and stop it. There could also be some form of rehabilitation required for people who commit such aggressions.

In addition to that, I think raising the awareness of the community or incorporating some sort of information into the education system to counter such negative concepts and help make people more aware or inclusive. These are all suggestions. As I said, I’m very positive and optimistic about the outcome of this meeting, and I’m confident that all the efforts taken on this path towards addressing Islamophobia will be fruitful. Again, I thank you for the opportunity to be here.

The Chair: I want to take this opportunity to thank all of you for your presentations. We will now proceed to questions from senators.

Senator Jaffer: Salaam Alaikum to all of you and thank you for being here. I want to start with three short questions to each witness. I’ll start with Mr. Hanout.

You said one action, but it’s not really one action. It’s one action that leads to many actions. Your daughter’s experience, she probably will never forget. It’s very important for us to hear those. Besides suspending the student for a day — I have my views on that suspension, but I won’t say that here — but what else did the school do? What other steps did the school take to empower your daughter or make her feel more at home and also to let other students know that this is not acceptable behaviour?

Mr. Hanout: My daughter’s teacher was very supportive and was upset about the action that this student committed. She spoke with him, but I’m not aware of any further actions. I would say my daughter doesn’t have a problem at the school. She’s happy, has friends and she’s okay. After the suspension, this particular student did not repeat any action towards her specifically, although she tells me that he still says similar things to others. But there’s no process in place to rehabilitate this kind of unacceptable behaviour. I’m not aware of one, further than the suspension.

Senator Jaffer: How old was your daughter?

Mr. Hanout: She’s now 17.

Senator Jaffer: A question for Iman Yousri. Imam, you talked about the definition of Islamophobia and our committee has been struggling with the definition. Any expert I’ve asked has said they don’t really have a definition. Our chair had come up with a good definition of being racist against Islam. What would your definition be?

Mr. Yousri: Thank you, senator, for the question. This work needs to happen after research. We have seen similar work done in the U.K., where a definition came out after lots of research and discussions with Muslim organizations across the country, and I think this is worth being looked at.

Second, I don’t want to impose a personal definition for something like this for the Muslim community. However, what we want to see are serious actions to launch this research, including by experts in anti-racism. There are experts in Islamophobia across the country in different universities who are starting research around this. I think we would be able to come up with a definition that really reflects this, and also benefit from other work that has been done in other countries around us.

Senator Jaffer: Thank you, Imam. Mr. Khan from the Moncton Muslim Association, I was very interested in your presentation. I see the association purchased a property that was converted into Moncton’s first mosque. I’m wondering if you’ve applied for funds from the federal government for security of that mosque in order to have cameras and other things so that the mosque is secure?

Mr. Khan: Thank you for the question, senator. It is a very good question. Actually, that’s one of our main points.

We applied to the Security Infrastructure Program, or SIP, from the federal government almost a year and a half ago. The process is taking so long to actually get anything done. We do have security, but it’s not sufficient for the mosque. That program is so slow to respond that it’s been over a year and a half. A few months ago we finally got a response that it’s almost approved. But then the people working on the project were on vacation, and when they came back, we gave all the information needed and we are still waiting. It’s been over a month since we’ve received a response.

I think it’s a great program, and the vulnerable communities could really benefit from that. However, I think it’s very slow to respond. We need to make sure that if somebody puts in a request, it’s done in a few months, not more than a year or so.

Senator Jaffer: If I’m not mistaken, you have been waiting now for almost 25 months, is that correct?

Mr. Khan: I don’t know the exact number of months, but it’s more than a year and a half, that’s for sure.

Senator Jaffer: Okay, thank you. The part we’ve heard from other witnesses is that the forms are very complicated to fill in.

Mr. Khan: True.

Senator Jaffer: They are really complicated, was that your experience as well?

Mr. Khan: Yes, it was. It’s complicated and there are a lot of requirements, and not much help to fill those in. Maybe one way to solve it is to have one of the members of that department help the candidates fill out the forms, perhaps online sessions with whoever is applying for the grant to guide them through filling out the forms. If I remember correctly, I think it took us almost two months just to file the request for the grant.

Senator Jaffer: Thank you.

Senator Arnot: I’m addressing these comments to all the witnesses, and I’d like them to give their impression about some of these issues.

It’s quite clear to us, certainly to me, that Islamophobia is acute in Canada. We’ve heard about a plethora of incidents and situations that really call for it to be addressed.

I believe that one of the ways that this could be addressed is through the power of education as an inoculant against hate, ignorance and fear, which is giving rise to anti-Muslim hate and racism. I say that because we live in Canada — a multicultural, multi-ethnic country. Canadian Heritage has a lot to do with that issue.

In respect of education, I’m wondering what the witnesses might say about the need to develop a K to 12 set of resources that really answers the questions, “What does it mean to be a Canadian citizen? What are the rights of citizenship?” More importantly, what are the responsibilities that come with those rights, and how do you build and maintain respect for every citizen, no exception, because every human being deserves equal moral consideration? That’s in the K to 12 system.

With respect to adults, I’m wondering if the witnesses would comment on the responsibility of Canadian Heritage to develop strategies and multi-platform communication programs that could be used to build understanding where there is ignorance and support inclusion rather than exclusion.

I’m just wondering what the witnesses would say about that aspect of education, both in the K to 12 system and to adult Canadians.

Mr. Khan: Thank you. Actually, that’s a great question. It’s the most important topic. I was talking to my wife about this. She’s a supply teacher in the school. More than adults, I think the most important thing is to give knowledge to K to 12 students because that’s the generation that’s going to take the concepts and spread them. I don’t think there’s currently any program that teaches particularly about Islam.

I’ll give you an example. My kids grew up here in Moncton. They were born and raised here. One is in university, two are in high school. When they were younger, there was not much diversity. They were probably the only Brown kids, with maybe one or two other Muslim kids in the whole school. Nobody knew about Ramadan, nobody knew about prayers or had any information. They struggled going through that system.

Now, I think there’s a difference. There are a lot of Muslim kids in school now who talk about Ramadan, prayers and all that stuff. The district caught up because the population increased.

We have to have consistent programs for K to 12 students where local mosques and Islamic organizations are invited, maybe every four to six months, to give a light presentation about what Islam is. This way, it brings awareness among kids that it’s a religion and maybe it’s a little bit different from what they might practise, but that’s what they do and why they do it. In this way, they’ve developed an understanding and acceptance of the Islamic culture so they’re not surprised. Or if somebody gives them wrong information or the twisted part of Islamic religion, they can differentiate.

That’s something that would be very helpful, in my opinion, to start something like a program through the school district.

The Chair: Thank you. Imam, would you like to add to that?

Mr. Yousri: Yes. Thank you so much, senator. I truly believe this will be helpful for K to 12 and beyond. Here in Halifax, we have developed a program for government institutions, like human resources for the Halifax police, Halifax firefighters and even beyond government institutions. We offer a program for the cadets joining the Canadian Forces to educate them and to help answer questions about Islam and the Muslim community in Halifax and the surrounding areas. The feedback we have received from this program has been really positive. Since then, we have been developing this for every group of police officers and first responders.

We were really hoping to share this beyond Halifax. The only challenge we face is finding the funds we need to continue to provide this on an ongoing basis, especially with growing demand from other institutions who have heard about the program. Their staff and teams would like to have it.

I thank you for this. We have also mentioned this to Minister Rodriguez before, and we hope to see this become an option soon.

The Chair: Thank you. Mr. Hanout, would you like to add anything to that?

Mr. Hanout: I don’t have much to add to that. I do believe in the power of education. I do believe that if the younger generations receive the correct guidance or the correct information at an early age, this would help to create a healthy society, one that is more inclusive and more accepting of others.

I’m very much aware of the efforts of Imam Yousri. I’m also in Halifax, and I know they do a great job interacting with the community. It’s very beneficial, especially on behalf of the Muslim communities. Definitely, the power of education — I’m a big believer in that. This will be a big part of the solution, of course.

The Chair: Thank you.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much to our witnesses. I have a couple of comments before I pose a question.

I wanted to inform the committee that Newfoundland and Labrador has recognized October as Islamic History Month. We’re also working very closely within our community and the government to introduce a K to 12 curriculum that addresses Islamophobia and other anti-racism issues. This is a multi- or quadripartite system involving the education department, justice and Aboriginal affairs, as well as a broad swipe of the communities.

In a small province, it is possible to do some of this work and to actually address the vulnerabilities of our students. The Muslim Students’ Association at Memorial University, similarly, disseminates this type of information. We’ve had some very successful iftars where members outside of the Muslim community have partaken, and part of this includes educational sessions.

The question that comes to me repeatedly from the student bodies, though, is the particular vulnerability that Black Muslims face in my province. It’s almost a kind of double whammy. They’ve faced Islamophobia, as well as anti-Black racism. Sometimes this extends into the Muslim community as well, where there’s a divide between Black and non-Black. I wonder if you can comment on that. How can we address this issue? It is particularly disconcerting to me when I’ve talked to Black Muslims who have suffered substantially in this realm. Thank you.

Mr. Yousri: Yes, it’s absolutely true. Thank you, senator, for bringing this up. We have also seen lots of examples here. Actually, last week, we produced a podcast for the youth highlighting one of our Muslim leaders in the city who was subject to racism and anti-Black sentiment — both within the community and outside it — in order to educate the youth and the community about it. This really exists.

Islam and the Muslim community — the diversity of the Muslim community is really something that we are proud of. However, at the same time, these incidents do exist, and we try our best to educate our youth in our communities about it. That’s why it’s unfortunate to see these things happen. This even happens to imams and leaders in the community, not just regular people, despite the fact that we have clear guidance in the Quran and in the teachings of Islam, again, from day one and from the great Companions of the Prophet being from the Black community. We always advocate about this. The issues do still exist, and it’s our mutual responsibility to put an end to this mainly through education, as we were just saying. Thank you.

Mr. Khan: Imam Yousri summed it up very well. Speaking from the Islamic point of view, there’s zero tolerance for any type of racism, including racism based on colour. But, again, we are human beings. Things happen, even within our community. If something like that happens — and it is rare that we have seen it happen — we address it not only with education, but also with action. I will not name an incident, but something happened many years ago here in the mosque. Somebody was a little bit racist about people of colour, and we strongly condemned that and it was taken care of. Whenever we see that happen, we not only educate people, but we take action.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Hartling: Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here today. Mr. Khan from Moncton, I’ve never met you, but I’ve spoken to you. I’m from Moncton in Atlantic Canada, so I’m pleased to hear your voices here today and to talk about some of the issues and things that you see.

We talked a lot about education, and that is really important because education is certainly something that makes change. The idea of having the K to 12 program is a really good point.

I’m also thinking about what you said about other partners and affiliates, especially in all professions. I’m a social worker, so in social work, in health care, in other areas — are those some of the other areas that could also have some education on what you’re about and on some of the struggles? You can’t do it all yourselves. Who else can be your partners to help us make this education happen? Thank you.

Mr. Khan: Thank you very much, senator. It’s a great question. I will say two things. One thing that Imam Yousri mentioned, they already have a program where they talk to the RCMP, to cadets and other professionals. We would like to copy that because I don’t know of anywhere in New Brunswick where that is being done. If it’s from an organized platform and if we could do that, that would be great.

The second part of your question is who should be our partners? To be honest, I’m not sure who, but I think it would be great if local governments or the federal government could initiate one of their departments to help us. You are 100% right; we are volunteers. For example, personally, I am a volunteer. I have a full-time job, and then I serve the community just for the sake of Allah, for the sake of God.

We want to go and talk to the people. We want to go see RCMP officials, nurses and doctors at the hospital and generally educate them about Islam or at least break the barriers between the different cultures and religions. But we can’t do that because we don’t have time to arrange all of that.

Perhaps there could be an organization or a department that could set up those things and let us know, “Okay, Mr. Khan, are you available on this date and at this time to give a small presentation to these professionals?” We would love to do that.

But, again, you’re right. We have very tight schedules and a short time, and we can’t do it all. We need help. I’m not sure which department can help, but it would be great if someone could help.

Senator Hartling: Thank you. Any other comments?

Mr. Hanout: Yes, in our Sabeel Muslim Youth and Community Center, speaking of education specifically, we communicate with all the schools in the Halifax and Bedford areas. We organize the Friday sermon mainly for the Muslim kids, but we also have attendance from non-Muslim kids who come to listen to these sermons. They have the curiosity to explore what this is about.

This is a role we have in terms of education. We arranged that in cooperation with the schools. It also delivers a good message to non-Muslim students to familiarize them with their Muslim colleagues and with Islam in general. This is one thing we do.

Senator Hartling: Thank you.

Mr. Yousri: Thank you, senator. If I may add to this piece, this is a very important point that we suffer from a lot when we talk about community services and issues of Islamophobia in community services. For example, in hospitals. In all of Atlantic Canada, we do not have chaplains in any hospitals across Atlantic Canada — a Muslim chaplain who could provide this service within hospitals and the health care system. I was actually surprised when I participated in the training to find that of all of the chaplains across Eastern Canada, there are no Muslims there. There is minimal understanding or training about providing this service to the Muslim community. It’s a big pain for our community and the entire Atlantic region, so thank you for pointing to this.

Senator Hartling: Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: The nice thing about coming last is that all the questions have already been asked.

I was interested in Imam Yousri’s work, which is really about awareness raising, communication with institutions, and, I guess, with the people.

Mr. Yousri, I would like you to tell us a little more about the results. Could this be exported or replicated in other provinces, as Senator Arnot and one of the witnesses mentioned?

That is something that would be interesting to understand so that we could duplicate it in other provinces. How do you do it?

[English]

Mr. Yousri: Thank you, senator, for the question. We are really happy to share what we are doing. I just summarized the last one — the training that we have done for Halifax police, as an example. We have organized this training for all the new candidates. There were around 50 of them participating in this half-day training. We had one Black imam presenting, one white Canadian imam presenting and a social worker also presented to cover different things in this training, including anti-Black racism and the Islamophobic piece. We have been giving the cadets training about cultural sensitivity, and dealing and interacting with Muslim communities. A big piece of the program is about the religious sensitivities in dealing with Muslim communities. Another piece of that training dealt with women and girls. In particular, there were lots of questions from officers around this.

We have a big portion at the end of the training that allows cadets to ask questions about incidents we have seen and situations we have been through before so that we can answer them. After that, we have established a point of contact through the community officer of the Halifax Regional Police to always invite members to attend the mosque on Fridays, to connect, see the mosque from the inside and interact with the Muslim community.

One interesting thing at the end, and the result you asked about — we were fortunate enough to get the official feedback forms from the officers who attended the training and how they felt. It was very surprising for all of us to see the impact and how they all rated this as one of the best pieces of training they received in their entire training program. For us, this has been a very important and successful project. We would be very happy to share this with others in other provinces. Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: It is true that Islamophobia comes from ignorance. Indeed, it is important to communicate, to raise awareness so that people understand the true meaning of Islam and Muslims.

Could the training that you offer to institutions also be offered in schools, to the media, to the population so that they understand the Muslim religion? What should be done on the government side?

[English]

Mr. Yousri: Absolutely. This is exactly what we are doing.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Can the federal government help you expand the pool of people taking this training?

[English]

Mr. Yousri: Certainly. This is what we are asking for. If we have the support from the government, we would be able to offer this to different areas, such as hospitals, prisons and other areas in community services that deal with domestic violence in homes and family issues. All of these workers — unfortunately, I hate to say — lack the minimum requirements of the training needed to deal with Muslim communities and deal with these situations. This is what we have been seeing. Whether in schools or in hospitals, we understand the rapid change that has been happening in the community, but we also need to be fast in equipping the teams of workers and first responders with the training that they need. If we have support from the government in spreading this out, we would definitely be able to be consistent in providing this to many organizations across the province.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Thank you.

[English]

Senator Jaffer: Imam Yousri said it would be helpful to have government help. What type of help were you looking for when you said, “government help”? What specifically can we, as a committee, recommend to the government?

Mr. Yousri: Thank you, senator. I would say two things. The first is to give recommendations to government institutions to make sure their workers go through this type of training. Diversity and inclusion are a major part of this. However, the training about the Islamophobia piece in particular is essential as we see this rise in Islamophobic issues and a lack of awareness in dealing with the Muslim community. In government, they know this. They would have this as a recommendation and requirement. They would reach out to us and others to facilitate this. Until now, we have been taking this initiative, but we would need to see this coming from the government as one of their mandates. That’s the first thing.

Second, to support these efforts by funding this training that is very much needed by a lot of government organizations across the province. While we have limited resources and time to handle this, our volunteers and staff are actually stretched in so many directions. We have been talking with Minister Rodriguez about this as well, and we hope to see things coming our way in due course. Thank you.

The Chair: Imam, I want to ask you and the other witnesses the following: How have incidences of hate in other parts of Canada impacted the community? That is, the terrorist attack on the mosque and the terrorist who killed the Afzaal family in London. We have had other incidences, too. What has been the reaction of the community? Is there a fear?

Mr. Khan: I can start if you allow me. Thank you, senator. That’s a good question.

Yes, it does. Whenever something happens within Canada, or even outside Canada, it does have an impact on the communities that are living everywhere in Canada. In Moncton, for example, whenever an incident like that happens, sometimes people reach out to the mosque or the association and say, “Is it safe to come for Friday prayers? Is it okay to come to the masjid? Should we keep on coming?” It does strike fear in the community. However, obviously when working with the community, we calm them down and give them hope. We encourage them to keep on doing what they’re doing within the community. But it does have an emotional effect on people.

Mr. Yousri: Thank you very much. I don’t have much to say on this. The fear is everywhere and when incidents happen, we always try our best to bring the community together.

We had a big visit after the London attacks. We brought the holy communities together, from Muslim, Christian, Jews and Indigenous — every community — to support the community during these tough times. However, we are blessed to be in Nova Scotia where the community is very welcoming and supportive. We are fortunate enough to be in Halifax where we have lots of support during these tough times.

The Chair: Mr. Hanout, would you like to answer that question?

Mr. Hanout: I third Mr. Khan and Iman Yousri. Whenever a similar incident occurs, it definitely strikes a lot of fear. Fortunately, we find the support among ourselves and our neighbours. The whole society is supportive. It’s fortunate and a blessing to be living in Canada. At the end of the day, Canadians are very inclusive, supportive and will stand with one another in similar situations. But definitely some fear strikes from time to time when a big incident like this happens.

Mr. Khan: We had a vigil in Moncton, too. I want to highlight what Mr. Hanout and Iman Yousri said. Whenever something like that happens, we get immense support from the local community. People from all races, cultures and religions come and support us. That’s the beauty of Canada, namely, that we are a diverse community. When something happens, all the community stands behind us and supports us.

The Chair: I proposed this study because I was shocked to find out that the most Muslims killed in a G7 country was in Canada.

Has the attitude towards Muslims changed recently or in the past few years? As someone who is from Toronto, I can certainly sense that in the past few years, the rhetoric has changed. Do you feel the same about your communities?

Mr. Khan: I will agree with that. I don’t want to be political, but what happened a few years ago south of the border when there was an administration for our biggest neighbour — the U.S. — that was vocally polarizing and, to some extent, legalized racism, this had a major effect on Canada as well. Since then, personally working in Moncton, I have seen an increase in hate crimes, in Islamophobia and in people being called out just because of their religion. I think things have changed in the last five to six years especially.

But it’s not just that. I was listening to a professor from Toronto. He was giving statistics about how the extreme right has risen from a few organizations to about 200 organizations. This is definitely another concern, especially when we talk about Islamophobia — that the right wing is rising. Governments need to do something about it. That’s a concern from our communities.

Mr. Yousri: The numbers speak louder than anything that statistics can speak about with regard to the rise of these issues. One more thing here is that these incidents were reported. Yet, there are layers and layers of incidents that go unreported, mainly because many within the Muslim community do not really see actions from governments when they report these incidents. There is a huge mistrust between the community in general and the authorities because they see the reported incidents and issues go in vain. This is something I’ve been trying to work hard on — to bridge between the community and authorities. That’s why we have been talking about clear definitions of Islamophobia, hate crimes and hate speech. Unless these are going to happen, we will continue to see this big gap in the reality between the real world and what is being recorded and reported.

The Chair: Mr. Hanout, would you like to add to that?

Mr. Hanout: I don’t have much to add at this point. I think Mr. Khan and Iman Yousri covered what I would want to say other than that there are significant aggressions that must be reported and require bigger action.

However, there are also micro-aggressions, especially against Muslim women wearing the hijab, for example. Some individuals who have some Islamophobic inclinations — micro-aggressions that you really cannot grasp. For example, walking into a department store to buy something. Going to the cashier, you see the cashier give a cheerful smile to every single one. However, when it comes to this particular woman wearing a hijab, the cashier becomes abrupt. As soon as she passes, however, the cashier goes back to a cheerful smile. These kinds of micro-aggressions are hard to report, but represent an issue that something is wrong. Muslim women wearing the hijab are the ones who are most exposed to this kind of thing because they are more visible.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hanout. You talked about micro-aggressions and we’re talking about the othering of people, which we’ve heard throughout as we’ve travelled across Canada.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: I just wanted to understand and know what you think about the role of the media. The witnesses we met before you spoke a lot about the media accentuating Islamophobic behaviour in their statements and positions, which are often linked to or defend freedom of expression. What do you think about this? What is your relationship with the different media in your respective regions?

[English]

Mr. Yousri: I would say we also try our best to be positive in dealing with the media. I would highlight just one report that we did with CTV News two days ago after Hurricane Fiona that you have all heard of in Nova Scotia and Atlantic Canada. We have this report featuring 20 of the hijabi girls — our students at the school — along with our boys serving a thousand meals within two days of the hurricane to the general public who were affected and did not have power. CTV News reported what we shared, and it was a powerful report.

With all these incidents and events that happen, we try our best to be positive in dealing with the media. We invite them to our doors to come and see the work we do and report this image of this work of the Muslim community to the community and our neighbours. We really believe it has a positive impact in dismantling these Islamophobic thoughts and issues within the community. When we see this in the news, we see the response instantly.

During the last three years, we have had over 50 or 60 similar reports at different times — after COVID or within these tough times — sharing the contributions of the Muslim community, immigrants and newcomers to the community and their integration within the broader community. This is highlighted through the media. We really support the work that our fellow workers in the media do to highlight this as well. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Would anybody else like to respond to that?

Mr. Khan: Yes, just a few words. When it comes to Canadian media, I think we are fortunate that it’s pretty streamlined with diversity and inclusion. I will not talk about the other world media, especially south of the border and all that stuff. But once in a while we do get some aggressive response from media.

For example, there was a local newspaper in New Brunswick that published a cartoon of what apparently looked like a Muslim man dragging a woman. It was a big scandal. I think there was a lot of backlash for that. I think they did apologize.

The media needs to be sensitive when they are conveying a point. They have to be very clear in what they’re trying to say and not generalize things so that it looks like a Muslim doing something wrong because that promotes Islamophobia. What they’re trying to say should be specific. When somebody is going to look at a particular cartoon or article, if it does not clearly say what it’s trying to say, then it will be considered a general statement about Muslims and that will create Islamophobia. I think the media needs to be very sensitive in how they portray things. That’s one thing.

Other than that, personally, I don’t have any complaints about the media. They have been supportive. Whenever we need them, we reach out to them and they respond.

The Chair: Mr. Hanout, would you like to say anything?

Mr. Hanout: I don’t think I have much to add about this part. We had some good interactions with the local media. They always approach us and try to cover our local celebrations as Muslims. I work in Newfoundland as well. I’ve been approached by the local media in Newfoundland to cover some of our local Muslim celebrations. I don’t have any specific issue about that.

The media, of course, have to stand at the same distance from all components of society in Canada and be sensitive about what they publish and the possible consequences if they publish something that might paint a certain group in a way that is not favourable. This can lead to consequences and harm to those people. I agree with what was mentioned in this part.

The Chair: Thank you. When we’re talking about the media, we heard about the portrayal of Muslims in mainstream media — whether it’s on TV or in the movies — and the phrase “Islamic terrorists” being used, but not when someone else’s religion is mentioned when they commit acts of terror. We heard that. We just want to put that on the record when we talk about the role the media plays.

I was going through social media today, and we have a reporter in Toronto who is in hijab. Somebody tweeted that seeing her in hijab makes him feel very uncomfortable. I was wondering what she does or says that makes him feel uncomfortable. We live in Canada, and most of us cover our heads in winter. That should not be the only thing that should be making someone feel uncomfortable.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all the witnesses for appearing before us. Your testimony with our study will help us when we write the report. Senator Jaffer did briefly touch on the recommendations that we will be making to the government. We do that at the end of every study. If you feel there’s anything you missed or that you would like to add, feel free to reach out to the clerk.

Honourable senators, I shall now introduce our second panel of witnesses. Each witness has been asked to make an opening statement of five minutes. We shall hear from all witnesses and then turn to questions from senators.

We have with us, from the Canadian Muslim Chaplain Organization, or CMCO, Mr. Adil Afzal, Senior policy and Islamophobia expert. We also have with us the Education Advisor of Human Rights and Equity Services at Dalhousie University, Ms. Amina Abawajy.

I will turn to Mr. Afzal for his presentation.

Adil Afzal, Senior policy and Islamophobia expert, Canadian Muslim Chaplain Organization (CMCO): Thank you, senator. [Another language spoken] In the name of the Creator, God, Allah — the gracious, the most merciful — I begin with the Muslim salutation of peace — Salaam Alaikum — may peace be upon you all. Thank you, senators, for embarking on such an important effort studying Islamophobia in Canada, and, God willing, your collective efforts contribute to dismantling it.

I want to take a moment while we are teleconferencing from across Canada to recognize and honour our First Peoples and acknowledge the lands of our great nation as being part of the ancestral home of the Indigenous people — Métis, Cree, Blackfoot, Nakota Sioux, Iroquois, Dene, Ojibwa, Saulteaux, Anishinaabe, Inuit and many others to whom we are bound by treaty and who are the traditional stewards of this land.

I’m presenting on behalf of the Canadian Muslim Chaplain Organization as the senior policy and Islamophobia expert. The Canadian Muslim Chaplain Organization, or CMCO, has served as an advocate, policy contributor, community resource, spiritual support and chaplaincy for Muslims across Canada, all the while bridging Muslims and non-Muslims through interfaith, outreach and capacity building programs.

I’m also speaking on behalf of Sheikh Mohamed Yaffa from the Centre for Islamic Development in Halifax. Sheikh Yaffa is a chaplain for CMCO, and I work with him closely regarding Islamophobia in the Atlantic provinces.

I’ve also had the privilege of serving Canadian Muslims for almost two decades in a variety of roles, some of which are holding the position of mosque executive board member, chaplain, Islamic school program and policy adviser and multiple executive positions within the Muslim student association, including president.

My specialty in Islamophobia comes from my personal lived experience being born and brought up in Canada, and it comes from my Muslim community experience supporting and advocating for children, youth and adults facing Islamophobia. Whether that be from grade school to university or advocating for Muslim accommodations in hospitals, prisons, universities, government services, police services, supporting victims of Islamophobia — whether they be racialized, genderized or even visible Muslims such as women who wear a niqab or hijab or Muslim men who grow their beard, wear a thawb, shalwar kameez or kufi, which refers to a head covering that Muslim men wear.

My multi-faceted insight into Islamophobia draws from my legal, sociological, public policy and business expertise. I hold a bachelor of arts degree, with honours, in sociology; a master’s degree in public administration; a master’s degree in business administration; a juris doctorate; and a master of arts degree in sociology, where my thesis and research projects were focused on studying Islamophobia and media discourse. The title for my thesis was Islamophobia, Phantasmagoria: A critical discourse analysis of Islamophobia in Canadian newspapers.

Through my research, I have developed key insights into how Islamophobia is constructed and perpetrated in media, starting from media discourse construction to key methods of setting the dominant narrative.

Islamophobia is predominantly constructed within media discourse within three aspects of discourse. These are lexical choices, presuppositions and collocation.

Lexical choices are usually word choices that are used in headlines that don’t just convey the facts of the story, but actually create imagery in the mind. For example, let’s say there’s an increase of immigrants to Canada by 2%. Instead, you’ll see a headline say, “Floods of immigrants are entering Canada, choking our resources.” So the schema or the visualization that’s created in the mind is a flood of immigrants coming into Canada and the killing of resources in Canada. It makes a permanent implant in people’s cognitive interpretation of stories and their reality.

Presuppositions are what happen subtly. For example, you might have a headline that says, “Muslim women break free and play their first game of soccer.” The presupposition there is that Muslim women are not free and had to break free of something that’s holding them back. Usually, the presupposition is referring to their natural state or their community.

Collocation refers to words being together, for example, in a headline as well. For example, if you have “terrorist” and “Muslim” being collocated so often they create an association in the audience’s mind, where now when they hear one word they automatically think of the other. Many times when we teach or do workshops, we ask the audience, “What’s the first word that comes to your mind in terms of a religion when you hear the word ‘peace’ or ‘Zen’?” Many times they will say, “Buddhist.” If you say “terrorist,” they will automatically say “Islam” because those two words have been associated so strongly through collocation.

Media also contributes to the dominant narrative after constructing the Islamophobic discourse in three ways. The first way is through news values. This is through selection. News organizations will choose which stories to show and which not to show. The second way is through framing and that is the way they present that media, whether it’s the image that goes along with that story or the way that the headline is crafted. The third way is agenda setting, which is the prevalence of that news: How often does it come on? How much time is it given? How many platforms is it available on?

Examples of this are when Muslim perpetrators are likely to be identified as terrorists, representatives having more violent motives, linked in media reports to larger terror networks, broader patterns of ideological violence and labelled by their religious and ethno-racial identities — as was mentioned by many of the senators before. For example, a study of The Globe and Mail by Yasmin Jiwani, a professor of communications studies at Concordia University, found 66 articles on the Shafia femicide case alone — which was widely represented as an honour killing — but only 59 on the murder of women and domestic violence in the general media from 2005 to 2012.

The Quebec mosque shooting in January 2017 received approximately five minutes of airtime on CBC’s flagship news program, The National, the night that it occurred, while the London Borough attacks in the U.K. in June 2017 received several hours of live reportage and commentary.

I would like to share four other points: the definition or conceptualization of Islamophobia; the multi-layered and intersectional reality of Islamophobia; the problematic notion of the “model Muslim”; and strategies and policy solutions.

First, I want to address definitions and conceptualizations. This is often the main roadblock, the polemics in just defining Islamophobia. It’s very unfortunate because when you look at other social problems like anti-Semitism or homophobia, you don’t see this type of paralysis by analysis. You don’t see this type of emphasis on the technical term to the point where it becomes a barrier to actually solving the problem. For example, anti-Semitism has technical issues. Not all Jews are Semites, and not all Semites are Jews, yet we don’t have a problem with using that term when referring to the social reality of discrimination, bias and barriers that Jewish people face in this country.

In looking at the term “Islamophobia” and trying to conceptualize it, many times you’ll find it gets racialized or associated with anti-Muslim hate and so on. But I want to get it to a more fundamental level of understanding, and it might help to understand how it gets to a level of hate and racism.

First, when I conceptualize Islamophobia, I look at it as problematizing Muslim identity and agency. What do I mean by “problematizing”? I mean that you’re debasing Muslims’ ability to belong and be, and, more importantly, you’re making a barrier. You’re creating an issue out of the very identity of a Muslim, all the markers that go with it and the agency that comes along with a Muslim trying to advocate for themselves or participate in a democracy by accessing power, maybe being a decision-making authority and so on.

Much of the problematization of Muslim identity and agency comes in the form of creating mistrust, anxiety and suspicion about Muslims to the point where if a Muslim tries to go for any type of political office, many times they’re seen as being fifth column or that there is some sort of surreptitious, nefarious agenda at play. Terms such as “creeping Sharia” are used. This is coded language that is used to showcase that there’s some sort of hidden agenda in the Muslim community.

I’ll conclude by stating that understanding this concept from a risk society conceptualization really helps to understand this problematization beyond just hate and racism.

Sociologist Ulrich Beck looked at how modernization has made societies organize themselves based on risk. A lot of times when you see this disinformation about Muslims in the media, it increases the risk assessment in the public. Therefore, a lot of the behaviours Canadians have are just to mitigate that risk not necessarily because they hate that Muslim neighbour they have or because they know them to be a terrorist, but because the misinformation they’ve been given has increased that risk assessment of that individual, which now regulates their behaviours and causes them to perform these micro-aggressions: exclusion, discrimination, prejudice and violence.

I hope that wraps it up. I can go into more detail during the questions and answers.

The Chair: Thank you. Ms. Abawajy, I turn to you for your presentation.

Amina Abawajy, Education Advisor, Human Rights and Equity Services, Dalhousie University, as an Individual: Salaam Alaikum — may peace be upon you all. Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity to address members of the Senate today as we discuss Islamophobia.

I want to acknowledge that I am speaking to you from the traditional, unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Mi’kmaq. My name is Amina Abawajy, and I am the Education Advisor at Human Rights and Equity Services at Dalhousie University and the chair of Global Humanitarian Initiative Association. I’m also a graduate student, doing my masters of education.

Today, I am speaking from the perspective of a community member and advocate who cares deeply about the current realities for Muslims and how we can move from survival to a thriving and hopeful future. I will be drawing from lived experiences, feminist perspectives, literature and research. I want to thank all who have come before me who have paved the way for us to be having these important conversations in which I’m able to reflect and learn about my own realities as a Black Muslim woman.

As I’m sure you’ve been hearing, Islamophobia is rampant across the nation, and it is not confined to borders but rather is a global issue. When I refer to Islamophobia, I’m referring to the hatred or fear of Muslims or Islam or those perceived to be Muslim or practitioners of Islam. The boundaries of Islamophobia go beyond our Muslim siblings and also extend to, for example, our Sikh brothers, who are often mistaken or perceived to be Muslim.

For the sake of my five minutes, I will be focusing on Islamophobia experienced by Muslims and would like to focus on how education can be a powerful tool in dismantling Islamophobia.

According to the National Council of Canadian Muslims, since the 2017 attack on the Quebec City mosque, anti-Muslim hate crimes have been on the rise and online hate is creating an environment of fear and division. Dr. Sunera Thobani, a professor of Asian studies at the University of British Columbia, says Islamophobia and anti-Muslim rhetoric has been a constant feature of Canadian political life in the period since 9/11. According to Global News, statistics and surveys show that reported hate crimes against Muslims surged in Canada after 2011, and while the number of reports ebbed and flowed over the past 20 years, it never went back down to pre-9/11 levels.

We know that Islamophobia did not form in a bubble, but has been fed by misinformation, political action — and inaction — and White supremacist movements. Islamophobia feeds into pre-existing lines of marginalization. It’s particularly important to grapple with and highlight the experiences of people who choose to wear the hijab or niqab and that of Black Muslims as particularly visible Muslims who experience Islamophobia in compounding and intersectional ways.

From micro-aggressions to the macroscale, from physical violence and murder to verbal slurs to vandalization and graffiti — these forms of Islamophobia are deeply impactful personally and as a community. I distinctly remember how I felt when I learned about the murders in the Quebec mosque shooting. Although I had no personal ties to the individuals, I felt pain and sadness for our lost community members and fear for what this meant for my community and loved ones. I know many of us did.

I recall I was with the Dalhousie Student Union at the time, and I was sent nasty Islamophobic emails. I will quote one line from it in reference to the massacre: “The Muslims got what they and their false religion deserved.” I recall receiving several similarly Islamophobic voicemails after organizing a vigil on campus to hold space for our collective pain after the massacre. These are just a few examples, and I speak to my experiences, but there are many experiences — reported and unreported — of Islamophobia.

I want to switch gears to talk about the critical role education can play in dismantling Islamophobia. As I mentioned, I work and study in this field, and I’m truly passionate about the transformational possibles of education. I want to look at education from two lenses: education in the form of comprehensive, anti-Islamophobia education, and education to equip Muslims with the tools to navigate an Islamophobic society.

It is imperative that we undertake a comprehensive, educational anti-Islamophobia campaign that dispels stereotypes, myths, names, tackles the root causes of Islamophobia, is integrated with policy and can be rolled out widely within workplaces, educational institutions and leisure and community spaces. Because Islamophobia is so pervasive, we need resources to build more tools that can help equip us with the language and supports to navigate these difficult situations.

To conclude, I would like to humbly suggest some government responses.

One, to launch a comprehensive, educational anti-Islamophobia campaign that centres on lived experiences of Muslims, with a particular focus on visible Muslims.

Two, to increase funding to organizations like the National Council of Canadian Muslims and others who have been doing this particular work of dismantling Islamophobia in various forms for years.

Three, to develop laws with mechanisms that specifically respond to hate speech and Islamophobia before it reaches the high threshold of a hate crime.

Four, to invest in community-built tools and programming for resiliency, identity and community building.

Thank you for your time.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Jaffer: Thank you very much to both of you for your presentations.

Mr. Afzal, you gave a lot of detail, and you dealt with many issues. I would humbly ask if you would consider giving us a paper on all the things you were saying. I’m sure it will help our analysts as well because you have a profound amount of knowledge, and it would be very helpful to us.

However, I’m going to take you to something completely different. You’re associated with the Canadian Muslim Chaplain Organization. Are you involved in going to prisons?

Mr. Afzal: Yes.

Senator Jaffer: How easy has it been for you to get access to the prisons?

Mr. Afzal: Initially, it was easy, but it rapidly became difficult, especially once we started to actually work on accommodations for prisoners.

What I was dealing with specifically was in the Regional Psychiatric Centre. I know Sheikh Yaffa was dealing with things in Halifax.

The Regional Psychiatric Centre is a regional prison in Saskatchewan. To clarify, it deals with inmates from the East as well. It’s largely used for high-risk inmates who have mental health issues.

In that prison, we noticed that trying to get accommodations for prisoners was very difficult. Often you would have multiple people meeting with you, discouraging you and telling you, for example, “One person converted to Islam. They wanted to get accommodation for halal food. They didn’t really want to do that.” They almost try and coerce you into saying, “You know what? Don’t approve this. The person is pretending. The person just wants a different meal. They’re just not used to this other meal. They want a different meal.” They would have these conversations on the side to undermine accommodations.

Then we noticed that, slowly, our visiting time was getting harder to book. Many times, dealing with trying to get some policy changes for halal food was very difficult. You’d have to go through multiple meetings, and nothing would actually get done. It was a very frustrating process.

Senator Jaffer: [Technical difficulties] prisons in Canada, and the issues I heard from Muslim prisoners — I’ll just read them to you. One was halal food and how purposely things we don’t eat, like pork, were put in their food and stuff like that. Hair products were a big issue. Hair products and skin products for prisoners were substantially more in the shop than products used by White prisoners.

There is also prayer time. The prayer mat would be hidden, cut up and things like that. These are all things you’ve heard. Of course, there is access to chaplains.

Has that been your experience? Can you give us a recommendation, even if not necessarily today?

That’s a part of our study that we haven’t focused on a lot, but every time I’ve gone to prisons, Muslim prisoners have formed a group to talk to me. In fact, we once had a group, and we talked to them separately a number of times. That was what they were saying — that their prayer time and their prayer space were not respected. Of course, access to chaplains is virtually impossible.

I’ve almost used all my time to explain. Please give a short answer, and then please provide further in writing because I think this is an aspect of our study that we must focus on as well.

Mr. Afzal: Sure. Thank you very much, senator. I’ll try to be as quick as possible.

I want to share a quick story with you that will take a minute or less. It’s about this one individual inmate. She had not spoken to anybody — not a word — for three years. For three years, she had not talked. I came into the prison to visit the women’s section to give some counselling and to see what accommodations were needed. This woman spoke to me — actually spoke to me in Urdu. I was able to communication with her. The prison guards were shocked. Just imagine it: This is a woman dealing with mental health and other issues. She was denied access to chaplains. We were the first ones to get in there, finally, after a long period of time. Even then, it was so cumbersome to book and get in.

This is the impact it could have on an individual. Someone who hasn’t spoken for three years — it literally changes their life and can have a huge impact on recidivism rates and mental health in the future.

With regard to recommendations, I would say training. We talked about that before. It’s a big issue, and that’s clear. There needs to be a clear policy on halal foods and other things.

The third one that I think is very important is that there needs to be statistics, research and monitoring of these numbers. We lose the data. Unfortunately, this happens a lot, and then the complaints and everything like that don’t get recorded. These incidents don’t get recorded. The issues that chaplains deal with don’t get recorded. It all gets lost after a year or two.

Those would be my recommendations.

Senator Jaffer: May I respectfully ask if you are able to speak to other chaplains — and perhaps I will suggest to the chair that we have a meeting just with chaplains because this is a very serious issue in the prisons where there is serious Islamophobia. If you could please reflect on that and let the clerk know if you can do that.

Mr. Afzal: Definitely.

Senator Jaffer: Chair, I will go on a second round.

The Chair: I’ll put you on the second round.

I would like to clarify something. When you said the woman hadn’t spoken, was it because of language or was it that she could identify with you when you came? Obviously, she was Muslim so she felt comfortable enough to speak to you.

Mr. Afzal: At first, I thought it was the language. But then once I started talking to her, it was basically about the discrimination she felt while she was there. For example, many years prior, she had a Quran that was donated to her at the prison. That Quran was desecrated and thrown away somewhere, and she lost it.

The first thing she asked me for, actually — you might be aware of this — was a panj surah. It’s not the full Quran, but it’s a selection of chapters that a lot of people from the Indian subcontinent try to recite a lot in their invocations.

Her silence was based on a deep mistrust of the system.

The Chair: Thank you. Being from Pakistan, I know what a panj surah is. Most of us carry it — when you don’t want to carry the Quran, you carry a panj surah with you. Thank you.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much to both of our witnesses.

The federal government has announced that it will be appointing a special representative on combating Islamophobia, specifically to serve as a champion, adviser, expert and representative to the Canadian government for the purpose of enhancing efforts to combat Islamophobia, to address barriers facing Islam communities and to promote awareness of the diverse and intersectional identities of Muslims in Canada. These are, of course, areas we’ve been studying.

Recognizing that there’s still an open call for that position, what are the strategic qualities you feel this individual should have? Do you think that position will be an effective means or an important starting point in combating systemic Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate? Do you have any additional comments you want to make about such a position?

The Chair: Senator Ravalia, forgive me. I will add that this was mentioned a year and a half ago — maybe even a little longer — that they would be appointing someone, so I don’t know what the delay is.

Senator Ravalia: I think we’ve all been anxiously awaiting this as a catalytic opportunity for the Muslim community. We continue to wait, but your input with respect to that type of position would be very welcome. The question is for both of you. Thank you.

Mr. Afzal: Maybe I’ll let Ms. Abawajy go first because I spoke previously.

Ms. Abawajy: Sure.

I want to applaud the government for making this move. I think it’s a commendable move. The communication around it, perhaps, could be strengthened because this is the first I’m hearing about it. That can be said about a lot of things. Communication is really key to building awareness, and it’s something that should be looked at seriously.

To hear there’s a delay is upsetting, but I’m hopeful that the position will get under way soon.

In terms of qualities that I think are important, lived experience is very important. A connection to Muslim communities locally is very important. An understanding of the intersectionality is important, especially the importance of highlighting the intersections of visible Muslims because a heightened sense of Islamophobia is often experienced by Muslims who are visible.

It’s also important for there to be an educational component to the role. Building awareness and dispelling some of the stereotypes and myths are really crucial to the work that needs to be done to dispel Islamophobia.

I’ll leave it at that.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you.

Mr. Afzal: Maybe I’ll add one or two points.

One of the key things to understand is that it’s not just Islamophobia or intersectional Islamophobia, but rather it’s Islamophobias on different levels depending on whether you’re looking at a macro or micro level. Islamophobia manifests at an ideological level, a political level, a media and public discourse level and an institutional level, which includes systemic issues within employment, schools, justice systems, prisons, hospitals, et cetera.

You can see at a meso-level with hate groups and Islamophobia industries — there are groups that actually make money from spreading Islamophobia rhetoric. There is also the micro level — the criminal level — with hate crimes, violent crimes, personal interactions and a risk bias level, like I was talking about before.

Finally, the one key insight to understand — I want to reiterate what Ms. Abawajy mentioned — looking at visible Muslims is very important. Also, not falling for the trap of what’s called a “model Muslim.” Sometimes what you’ll see in a lot of advertisements is a sister — a Muslim woman — wearing a colourful hijab in a diversity campaign. You’ll see a lot of these images, for example, Ms. Marvel is another one. People are proud of having Muslim representation in the media and so on. Those are all good things. But there’s a concern there too. That is, when you create a model Muslim, what ends up happening is Muslim women who wear colourful hijabs, those are the safe Muslims. But those women who wear a niqab or black hijab, those are the risky ones.

This is the level of insight that the expert and special representative needs to have in addition to the ability to build trust with the Muslim community. Ultimately, real change is going to happen through empowering the Muslim community to take leadership and take a role in dismantling this, using their allies and coming together with the government to do so.

The Chair: Thank you. Senator Ravalia, do you have a follow-up?

Senator Ravalia: Perhaps this is being a little bold, but I wonder if you have any ideas or candidates that you think would be suitable for such a position given the work that you do? Both of you are very engaged in academics and cross-representation. Are there individuals who come to mind? Or would we perhaps leave it at this?

The Chair: I can understand you don’t really want to name an individual unless, of course, you feel comfortable naming someone. But I can sense the hesitancy, which is understandable.

Mr. Afzal: It is a difficult question. There are qualified people across Canada. Even Ms. Abawajy here, listening to her insights and lived experiences is very powerful. There are quite a few individuals.

The only issue is that I hope this is not seen as some sort of superhero situation — Superman, Superwoman, whatever you want to call it — where this person is given the burden of dealing with this social problem. Then somehow, if they don’t do it in the first year and there is not significant change, they are a failure and the whole initiative was a failure.

There needs to be special representatives, not a special representative. There needs to be more than just one person. That’s very important, to get the plurality, and also just to deal with the sheer amount of work that’s needed to actually combat Islamophobia.

The Chair: Thank you. Ms. Abawajy, you raised a point, which I keep raising, which is that with 1.5 million Muslims, I’m sure there are a lot of capable people. Why haven’t we found someone sooner? Also, this issue has come up that maybe we do need more than one person. Like you said, it might be too much of a responsibility placed on one person’s shoulders.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Mr. Afzal, I find very interesting the associations that you made in your doctoral thesis with words that are linked with Islam, words that are associated with Buddhism, like Zen. This chapter of your thesis shows how these words have harmed Islam. It would be interesting to share this with us.

I would like to come back to the media that creates these words, that associates them with the image they want to link to Islam or Muslims. What do you think we could do as legislators to make the media more responsible?

[English]

Mr. Afzal: I think that this begins by just looking back. In motion 103, if you look at the report done by Canadian Heritage on this, their recommendations at the end of the report called specifically for training journalists and bringing in regulation for helping to mitigate this problem.

Unfortunately, this report I think came out in 2017-18, somewhere around there. There’s been no action since those recommendations. This is what we’re seeing — a lot of reports and recommendations, but very little action, policy changes or programs that are supporting this.

First and foremost is just doing what we already know and what’s already been recommended. We need to train journalists. There needs to be some regulatory insights into this, and maybe even tying it to funding. For example, you can get funding from the Canadian government if you’re two journalists talking predominantly about Canadian news. Now, that funding should also come with certain requirements. One of those requirements should be a deeper insight into discrimination, racism, Islamophobia and so on in order to make sure those journalists understand those sensitivities and go through some sort of training for that.

Recommendations could also be given to universities that teach journalism and have journalism programs. Having this funded even as something that could go into multiple departments and teach people about Islamophobia and discrimination could be very helpful. Training and education is key.

Lastly, you need to have key change agents — people who are put in a position to help with this change. The special representative is one of them, which we just talked about. Having these positions, they can go in, develop these relationships with media and help them go along. You need these change agents, and you need them to be supported as well.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Thank you. My second question is for Ms. Abawajy. Ms. Abawajy, you talked to us about discrimination or rather Islamophobia among Muslims themselves. Can you give us more details about your experience in this regard?

[English]

Ms. Abawajy: If I understand correctly, the question is just to share some experiences of Islamophobia.

Senator Gerba: Yes, thank you.

The Chair: Senator, did you mean within the Muslim community?

Senator Gerba: She said that she has experience with Islamophobia within the Muslim community, namely Sikh.

The Chair: Just to clarify, I think the previous witnesses alluded to it also, we’ve heard testimony that within the Muslim community, there are incidents of racism also. I think we also heard — I’m forgetting in which city — about the racism that the Sikh community has faced because people can’t tell the difference between Sikhs and Muslims because they both have beards. I think that’s what she’s referring to. Can you talk about that? Thank you.

Ms. Abawajy: Perfect. Thank you so much for elaborating. I can speak from my own experience of being Black and Muslim. There absolutely is discrimination within the Muslim community. There is colourism and racism that exists within the Muslim community. Similarly within the Black community, there is Islamophobia that exists so navigating and walking between these two worlds is a challenge.

Here in Nova Scotia, we have a very large and vibrant Black community and a very large African-Nova Scotian community that is quite organized around the church. A lot of the activities and a lot of the programming is church-centric, which would leave out a lot of Black Muslims like myself.

On the flip side, talking about some experiences of anti-Blackness within the Muslim community, there are everyday examples like people choosing to speak Arabic when they know someone might not speak Arabic and not being inclusive on that interpersonal level. There are more systemic pieces when we think about fundraising campaigns that happen at the mosque, for example. They’re often for countries that are within the Middle East and not countries like Ethiopia or the Oromo community that I would be a part of that has a large Muslim community. The fundraising efforts would not be focused on those areas. There are definitely a lot of conversations that need to happen within communities and amongst community members to dispel some of these.

Like I mentioned, Islamophobia also extends to community members outside of the Muslim community. I often hear this from my Sikh peers who wear a turban, grow their beard and are often mistaken for being Muslims, being told to go back home, for example, or experiences of Islamophobia that are related to xenophobic sentiments but can certainly be labelled as Islamophobic. Those are some of the examples that come to mind when I think about these areas.

Senator Hartling: Thank you to the witnesses for being here. Very interesting conversations. I really appreciated listening to you talking about the narratives and word associations. That’s something we all need to think about and how that’s got to change.

I wanted to address my question to Ms. Abawajy. I really appreciated what you were saying about the different things you were thinking and writing about. I see it was a real change agent and role model. As a feminist, have you been criticized as a feminist and Muslim, and how you do that at the same time? Or other women who are feminists? Is that something you or other women have had to deal with?

Ms. Abawajy: Absolutely. My first job was at a sexual assault centre with a feminist organization. I received a lot of questions about how I came to be a feminist, how I held myself in that space and what brought me to that space. So a lot of conversations about what feminism means, deconstructing feminism and trying to make it more inclusive and intersectional. Yes, lots of conversations are coming up right now again around feminism and Islam. They’re interesting conversations.

Senator Hartling: I think that’s an important conversation. I’m glad you brought that up. Thank you very much.

The Chair: We’re almost out of time. I want to mention that I spoke about the issue of the prisoners. It came up in Edmonton and Toronto. We heard about how funding had been cut. Just to go back to what the question was that Senator Jaffer had.

We were struggling here when we started this study, when I proposed talking about Islamophobia in Canada. As we’re getting deeper into this study, I’m finding — and I think the other senators are, too — that Islamophobia doesn’t adequately address the issues faced by Muslims. A phobia is that you’re afraid of something or someone. If you’re afraid of Muslims, what does that fear drive you to do? We’re struggling. We’re looking at anti-Muslim racism, anti-Muslim hate. We’re struggling.

If you have any suggestions, we’re looking, we’re asking, you can send it to us later. Mr. Afzal, if you want to suggest something now. The same for you, Ms. Abawajy, if there’s something you feel we could use to name the study. We’re still looking and asking questions.

Mr. Afzal: I can send you a lot. For my thesis, I wrote about 20 pages on just the definition of Islamophobia by looking at how everybody defined it across the world, what the problems were and then how you can coalesce these into something that’s workable for policy, easy to understand — and not just easy to understand, but easy to communicate to the wider public. Because if it gets too nuanced, from a branding perspective and from a public discourse perspective, you can lose it and it can be complex. In the rhetoric you give to the public, you don’t want to get too complex. You want to make it as simple as possible.

That’s why I had that nuance of problematizing Muslim identity and agency. I also like to highlight how to make it relevant to Canadians. How do you make Islamophobia a relevant issue to non-Muslim Canadians? I think that’s through four ways at least.

One is that Islamophobia is anti-democratic. By problematizing Muslim identity and agency, you make it an issue for them to be active and equal participants in democracy. They can’t access power, authority and have a voice the same way everyone else can. Once you’ve done that to one group, you’ve destroyed the principle of democracy — that is, equality for everyone to have a voice. The second is liberty. You can’t be who you want to be in this country then, and that affects everybody. The third is public safety and national security. You create conflicts within society that can have generational issues and trauma. The last is you have to deal with problems to peace and prosperity.

When you have less diversity at the table that means you have fewer ideas at the table. You have less innovation and prosperity at the table. Making this relevant to Canadians is possible if you highlight the fact that Islamophobia is anti-democratic — it is an attack on democracy, an attack on Canadian liberty, an attack on public safety and an attack on Canadian peace and prosperity. That’s the rhetoric that needs to get out there and that’s the branding that needs to go behind this term.

The Chair: If you can suggest something — we’re looking at suggestions. Of course, it’s going to be the cover. It can’t be too many words. We’re also struggling with that. We would appreciate that.

My last question to you, Ms. Abawajy, is this: You received a lot of online hate. What did you do with that? Did you report it to anyone? If you did, what was the response that you got?

Ms. Abawajy: I did not report it. I chose to talk about it and to build awareness around it. I shared it with my friends and my community members. I shared it on Facebook. There were some media who wanted to talk about it, so it turned into an opportunity to build awareness around Islamophobia that’s happening in Canada. Often the conversations that I’m a part of, we talk about Islamophobia as this thing that happens across the border and not right here at home. I chose to use my experiences as educational experiences. I did not report them.

The Chair: Thank you for your honesty. It brings us to the point that I’ve been raising — that incidents of Islamophobia are really under-reported. I like the fact that you turned it into an opportunity to say something positive, talk about it and have a discussion, which is very important to initiate conversations.

Any final word before we adjourn?

Ms. Abawajy: I want to thank you all for having this important conversation. I think we need to be moving the needle forward on Islamophobia. It’s something that affects me, my peers and community members. I’m glad to hear that it’s being taken seriously at this level. I want to thank you all for that.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Afzal, let me ask you something. You mentioned motion 103. There were quite a few recommendations. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think any of them except one was acted upon. We saw at the end of the Islamophobia conference that there were also a lot of recommendations. Since then, there’s been a deafening silence.

Mr. Afzal: When you actually look at this issue more in depth, you start to realize there’s a lot going on. For example, there’s almost a meta-narrative you can get from just looking at the structure of the recommendations, the way they’re worded and the whole political situation that was happening at the time. The way that political parties were politicizing and criticizing the term.

If you look at the recommendations themselves, only the first two recommendations actually mention the word, “Islamophobia.” It was almost like they were tiptoeing around this and not really addressing it that much because of the backlash. There was a big backlash and a lot of issues. I’ll be honest with you, however. Any time you move forward with dealing with a social problem, there will be backlash because you’re challenging the norm.

Even this committee of senators, I commend you and thank you — just like Ms. Abawajy did — because you’re taking on a challenge and you will likely get backlash. When you come out with your report, you will have a lot of backlash. I commend you for your courage and steadfastness in seeing this through and being people who are change agents as well in helping us.

The Chair: Thank you very much for that. I want to thank both witnesses for your testimony. It will help us a great deal when we write the report.

Senators, that brings us to the end of the public part of this meeting. We will go in camera very briefly to discuss some future business. Thank you very much.

(The committee continued in camera.)