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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS

EVIDENCE

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OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 20, 2024

The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met with videoconference this day at 6:48 p.m. [ET] to study matters relating to transport and communications generally.

Senator Leo Housakos (Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Good evening, honourable senators.

[English]

My name is Leo Housakos, senator from Quebec and chair of this committee. I invite my colleagues to briefly introduce themselves.

Senator Simons: I’m Senator Paula Simons from Alberta, and I come from Treaty 6 territory.

Senator Cuzner: I’m Rodger Cuzner, from Cape Breton, the home of Buddy and the Boys, as we discussed earlier.

Senator Quinn: Wow. That’s tough to follow. Jim Quinn, New Brunswick.

[Translation]

Senator Clement: Bernadette Clement from Ontario.

[English]

Senator Cardozo: Andrew Cardozo from Ontario.

[Translation]

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Julie Miville-Dechêne from Quebec.

[English]

Senator Dasko: Donna Dasko, Ontario.

[Translation]

The Chair: This evening, we are continuing our study of the local and regional services provided by CBC/Radio-Canada, focusing on Western Canada.

[English]

Joining us this evening, on behalf of the committee, I have the pleasure of welcoming Richard Fenton, Founder and President, Fentunes Media, and Havoc Franklin, Board Member, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression.

Each of you will have five minutes for opening statements before we turn it over to my colleagues for Q&A.

Mr. Fenton, you have the floor.

Richard Fenton, Founder and President, Fentunes Media: Thank you, senators, for giving us this time to speak. Thank you, Senator Paula Simons, with whom I used to work, for facilitating that.

As you mentioned, I’m Rick Fenton, the owner and president of Fentunes Media. It’s a music marketing, event and production company. I also write music with other artists for film and TV and a bunch of other things in this new micro-penny universe that we all live in — certainly in the entertainment business.

I started at CBC in 1981 in Calgary. I was very, very young, and I was there at CBC for 18 years. Over those years, I benefited from the great educational platform that was — and to a certain extent still is — the CBC. We were taught by the absolute best, not to be just producers, but storytellers and arts journalists. Back then, journalism was taken very seriously, even if we were not of that background.

I worked as a producer in the music department in Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton, as well as all over Canada. I became a senior network arts producer, helping create programming like “The Entertainers” and “Saturday Night Blues.” I hosted and produced a regional Alberta show called “The Key of A,” a regional arts program still going strong — a music-centred program.

I recorded music, both live and in studio, for many shows. That’s what we did back then. We fed all sorts of different programs on both national and regional levels, hopefully, creating national and regional impacts.

Music producers were also expected — expected, but we really enjoyed it — to contribute to the morning, noon and drive-home shows, as well as other shows. We would feed “Morningside” when I was in Toronto on “The Entertainers.” It was a great joy to see young artists appear alongside news and survival information content. It’s still important. I think that, even back then, we had a great sense that, certainly, news was the central hub of the wheel, but the spokes fed out across the cultural landscape.

What was impressive to me — and still is — was the depth and breadth of the artists on the Canadian music artist scene. It’s still impressive. We punch above our weight internationally. We all felt very strongly attached to the CBC and the mandate of representing all Canadians in all regions.

During my time there, I saw many artists get their start on the CBC, and the impactful effect that the platform can have on their careers is central to their eventual success. Off the top of my head, some of the CBC’s first music entrées were artists like Blue Rodeo, Oscar Peterson, Diana Krall, Michael Bublé, Loreena McKennitt, Céline Dion, Stan Rogers, Sarah McLachlan and Serena Ryder. I could do 10 minutes just on the artists who came out of the CBC and still do. Peter Gzowski was the first person to play the Barenaked Ladies on the radio. Somebody handed him a cassette. He loved it, and he blasted out “If I had $1,000,000” to the entire nation, quite a few times.

Personally, I’m proud of having been the first person to record Jann Arden — something she mentions every time I see her. She describes the excitement of telling her mom and her friends, “I’m going to be on the CBC.” She talks about how it made her feel like a legitimate artist and a musician. The CBC was, and is, a very big deal for emerging artists, as well as for other artists who have already made it.

I remember recording Nickelback in a bar in northern Alberta. I recorded Joni Mitchell at a folk festival. The list goes on and on.

The CBC also used to give a lot more support to music festivals and events. You can look at Le Festival d’été de Québec, Montreal Jazz Festival — again, many regional jazz festivals all over the country where that support was most needed.

I used to be in the “pizza truck,” as we called it, the recording mobile, at many festivals, recording most of our top established and emerging artists for broadcast.

The CBC’s involvement helped these events stretch their artistic budget and contributed to their marketing and ticket sales, helping them achieve long-term feasibility. This worked both ways with those demographics and audiences becoming a loyal part of the listenership.

If you look at these examples through a lens of economic impact — something I like to do: the publishing, touring, ticket sales, jobs — it becomes clear that to debate the CBC’s involvement in the creation and continued success of these artists, festivals and venues is, quite frankly, both financially and artistically absurd. As cultural income and ownership are continuously eroded in the new digital reality, the CBC’s importance as a central bastion of Canadian arts and music will become even more critically important.

Certainly, news, current events and — as I mentioned — survival information of both a national and regional focus are, and always will be, central to the CBC and its mandate. That being said, music, arts and culture are woven into that mandate and create a stronger national broadcaster. To paraphrase, one last time, the great Peter Gzowski, we are creating and maintaining the cultural railroad of Canada. Thank you for your time.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Fenton. Now I turn the floor over to Mr. Havoc Franklin.

Havoc Franklin, Board Member, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression, as an individual: How much did Rick leave me in terms of time?

The Chair: You have 5 minutes and 55 seconds.

Mr. Fenton: I was under the limit.

Mr. Franklin: No, you were good. I agreed with most of what you said.

The Chair: I didn’t say anything; your colleague did. You were only 55 seconds over the clock, so now we will accord you the same amount of time.

Mr. Fenton: My apologies.

Mr. Franklin: That’s very sweet. I watched the committee hearing last night, and I just want to say to the senators from the Maritimes that when I worked in Moncton and opened up the station in Saint John — because, of course, the Irving media empire needed some public balance in terms of what was going on in New Brunswick.

I’ve worked in Toronto and Winnipeg doing a network show called “The Radio Show,” which was a performance show. We worked in the same department, but I worked mostly in journalism. For half of my career, or slightly more — 45 years — with the CBC, I was in production.

It was mentioned last night, but I worked with Eric Kierans, Dalton Camp and Stephen Lewis. I worked on that panel for “Morningside.” Literally, I’ve touched every program that existed on CBC Radio at the beginning of my career. That was about — I don’t know — 20 years.

For the last 25 years, I’ve worked in the development of people and programming: new programs and existing programs, local and national programs. You are inviting me here — Paula invited me here — to talk about what happened with the expansion in Western Canada. I had experience in all the locations where we expanded, including the ones in Ontario: Kitchener, Waterloo, London and Hamilton, which is a digital station.

I have a lot of on-the-ground experience, and I hope your questions explore that with me because it’s important to understand the big picture — for sure — as you discussed yesterday. Is television going to exist any more? That’s a big-picture question, but, also, what happens in those places?

My first piece of advice is this: I’d like to know if you spent a whole day in any local market station.

Senator Simons: Yes, I have.

Mr. Franklin: Well, Paula, I assume you have. You have probably spent more than a whole day.

Senator Simons: Yes.

Mr. Franklin: You have? What was that experience like?

Senator Simons: This is the danger of inviting journalists to be witnesses.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: First, tell us, and then we’ll ask questions.

Mr. Franklin: I ask because, when you go and see what they do in a story meeting — like, last night, you talked about bias — when you see what happens when they discuss what kinds of cultural things they should do and what music they should play, and when you see the process, the size of the station and what they are responsible for, it’s eye-opening.

Finlay MacDonald, Jr. from Halifax was involved with looking at the Broadcasting Act, or something to do with the CBC for some government initiatives. He came from the private industry. He, of course, spent far more time looking at it. What surprised me about him was that he did a total turnaround just from witnessing what goes on — the complications, the struggles and all those kinds of things. Really, at the heart of it, was what people did, what they believed and how they worked. That’s why I was interested, Senator Miville-Dechêne, in what your experience was like.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: You’re right that bias is not the first thing on the list when you have a discussion and need to fill a 30-minute broadcast.

Mr. Franklin: Three minutes to 30 minutes to three hours, like “The Morning Show.” Afternoon shows, yes.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: You just try to line up stories and then hope for the best.

Mr. Franklin: Yes, thank you very much for that.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: I was not going to ask questions, but this is from my English-speaking friend.

Mr. Franklin: Yes, because it gives you a different kind of insight into all our assumptions about what goes on, how it works and the complications. That’s my opening comment. I have many other comments, but I’m trusting that you will ask specific, good questions.

An Hon. Senator: You can slip me some questions.

Mr. Franklin: I can slip you many questions.

The Chair: Mr. Franklin, this is Parliament, so they can ask you all kinds of questions. It doesn’t mean you have to answer them. You can also reply whatever you wish, which we often do in this place. So you will have ample opportunity.

Mr. Franklin: I look forward to the questions. I just want to say one thing: I was watching Sue Gardner, and she said that television was dead. She said that to you.

Senator Dasko: Yes.

Mr. Franklin: Yes, because you were concerned about where you would watch “The National.”

Senator Dasko: Yes, as I said, what if I turn on the TV and there is nothing there? That is a scenario.

Mr. Franklin: Yes. The biggest thing, as you’re looking at this, is the language you use. The word “television” means something; the word “video” means something else; “video” is hot and will always be hot.

Senator Dasko: Radio is dead, and audio is everything. Yes, I know.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Franklin. We will be going over to Q & A. Before I turn it over to Senator Simons, I want to make a comment. My 25-year-old son has been following this committee, too. He suggests that television is going right next to the typewriter that I have downstairs in the basement of my house. That’s what he says. Of course, I am an old-school guy, and I’m still fighting for my TV.

Senator Simons: I never understand how you, a genuine Gen-Xer, who is younger than me, still became lost in a different time zone.

Senator Simons: Mr. Fenton, thank you very much for being with us. One of the challenges I found when listening to your testimony is that you were describing the things the CBC used to do in terms of music production and regional production. But you and I both know that, over the years, the CBC simply stopped recording local symphony concerts, local folk fests and local theatre artists. Why did that happen? Do you think the CBC is currently fulfilling its mandate of reflecting and supporting the regions, now that it has pulled out of all the important production that it used to?

Mr. Fenton: It exists in a much smaller form. You are absolutely correct. It doesn’t exist the way it used to. That’s a money function.

I could enter into an argument, following up on what we were talking about — that storytelling and content are needed now more than ever, and the CBC is the most uniquely placed thing that we have, as Canadians, to create that unbiased content. But, yes, it went away — things like talent development where we, as regional producers, would go and find that material. Yes, we were supporting festivals and working with them in order to help them live and carry on.

The ticket market out there is a tough market. I spent 18 years at the CBC, but I spent much more time in private industry. I worked for Canwest Global Communications Corporation and for many different people, until they lost $3.2 billion in one year, and that was the end of the whole Canwest legacy. Anyway, we move on.

Yes, that is distressing — that creationist thing. We have wonderful shows like “Q with Tom Power,” and we still have wonderful shows that exist. We still have music being played on regional programs — morning, noon and afternoon shows — but I don’t think the appetite for creation exists any more.

Senator Simons: This is what I am worried about. There is a mandate to serve the regions. The network, over the last 25 years, has cancelled locally produced shows, shows for the network that were produced in regional operations. They have stopped doing arts programming from the regions. The shows that you’re talking about come from Toronto, from the big blue building, and, frankly, they do a poor job of reflecting what’s happening in the arts scenes, even in a city as large as Vancouver.

What do you think needs to be done? My concern is that I don’t think the CBC is meeting its mandate on the cultural side at all.

Mr. Fenton: I completely agree. I don’t think it is meeting its mandate. I hate to keep dredging up Peter Gzowski, but he was a shining example for all of us of that place where culture, news and entertainment all met, existed and was created. That being said, I’m not naive enough to believe that magic pots of money will float down to the CBC to go back to the days of talent development funds and things like that. That would be wonderful, but I think those could exist with partnerships. I believe that you can partner with other organizations to create those things. You can — quite frankly — sell that content, and that content can be used in other forms, as it is.

What’s changed? Going back to Marshall McLuhan, the medium is the message, not the content. But that’s changed completely: It is the content. People are dying for content; they are absolutely starving for content.

Senator Simons: I would like to see the CBC step in—

Mr. Fenton: Yes, I am sorry.

Senator Simons: I will take my last minute to ask Mr. Franklin a question: Havoc by name, havoc by nature.

One of the reasons we invited you to speak to us is that you’ve been doing talent development of a different sort, working with regional show, regional hosts and reporters. The CBC, for the longest time, worked on a “farm team” system. People would go to smaller stations to learn their craft, and then they would move up a “fish ladder” until they reached the centre of the universe, which was Toronto.

Mr. Franklin: Are you still upset?

Senator Simons: Is that still the model that the CBC is using, or is there more of an investment in nurturing talent so that it stays in the places where people come from?

Mr. Franklin: I would say this: One, maybe people don’t move as much. Although, here in Ottawa, the executive producer worked in Calgary. She then went to Edmonton and then came to Ottawa. Now she’s leaving to do something else. So, she moved. There are many examples of the things that you witnessed when you worked there that still exist today.

I’m not sure there was ever a “farm team” concept. I think there was a greater sense — and this had to do more with radio — of a whole: whether you were working in Kelowna or Toronto, you shared many of the same experiences and saw opportunities. In some ways, because of money, travel, connections and those kinds of things, that has diminished a bit, but it still exists.

I would just like to add to what Rick said that, when you look at collective agreements — not within the CBC, but that the CBC has with artistic organizations and music productions — it became unbelievably expensive. Is that a fault of the CBC in terms of not meeting its supposed mandate? I suppose it is, but they were also under financial constraints. It is a complicated little question because it ultimately ties with resources.

When you look at what happened to music — and I was part of the development when it shifted from what was essentially a classical music service into something different and larger — it is, I would guess — I don’t actually know — a third of the resource size that it used to be. That’s huge.

Senator Simons: You are saying that two thirds of the budget has been cut from music production?

Mr. Franklin: As a result of the expense of doing things, yes. Not the resource of the people, but the expense of doing a recording. They still do some recordings that are worth it. Did they do The Tragically Hip? I think they did in conjunction. That’s a very complicated little question.

In terms of regional material, those local programs, probably in the markets that they are in — all of them — exceed the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, requirement of having 50% Canadian content. They are the only ones in the country doing that. If you were in Kelowna, Fredericton, Moncton, up the Bathurst way or Saint John, and you were listening, you would hear New Brunswick music more than you would hear whatever the competition is, substantially. So, those are vehicles.

The Chair: Thank you, sir. Senator Simons’ time has elapsed.

Senator Quinn: Thank you, witnesses, for being here. I will start by saying that it is hard to picture our chair being in the basement on an Underwood Typewriter with onion-skin paper typing up whatever he is typing, watching hockey.

The Chair: In black and white.

Senator Quinn: Thank you, gentlemen, for being here and for your opening remarks. For me — someone from Saint John, who grew up in the Maritimes — CBC, for years, was the only thing in town, whether it was radio or TV, which was amazing, being such a young fellow. In any case, what you said made me recall what I regarded as the glory days of big-time radio, big-time TV and that kind of thing. Yet, here we have heard about trends indicating that the CBC is declining, their viewership has declined, and revenues are declining. Last night, we heard some people speculating that they should exit commercial marketing and that type of thing.

You are both from the foundations of a great organization, and you are doing other things in life now. If you were back at the CBC, what would you do to reverse the trends that we hear about? I would like to hear from both of you. What needs to be done?

Mr. Franklin: I only left last January. I still participate even though I don’t get paid. What would I do differently? I would do nothing differently because the goal was always about this: How can we be more relevant? How can we be more attractive? When I started working in Saint John, where did we exist in the market? We did not exist as number one. We exist as number one in almost all the local markets we are in. Now, why is that? Is that because we improved so much? We were probably consistent. The market changed: It changed in Toronto; it changed in Saint John.

I would stay true to the ultimate goal, which is to try to find as many listeners as possible or as many viewers as possible. What do you see in the CBC? You see them spreading out to where people are.

Senator Quinn: I’m sorry to interrupt for a moment, but I only have a few minutes. Thank you for that part of it. You have just recently left. The trends are showing that it is an organization at risk. The bottom line is that it is at risk. What can be meaningfully done? You said that we have to attract more young people, et cetera. What actions do you take to ensure the regional importance of the CBC mandate? It is national and regional, but being from one of the regional areas, I would say that it has become more national in coverage. How do we reverse the trends so that the CBC becomes — in the public’s eye, and in the government’s eye — relevant and worthy of support of government funding?

Please respond very briefly because I want to move to Mr. Fenton.

Mr. Fenton: Those are all very good questions. Regionally and nationally, those were things that were done well. As far as attracting new listeners, we live in an age when delivery systems and delivery audiences are changing very quickly. The CBC is in a unique position. I’ll return to the regional aspect of it, but we were talking the other day about the huge number of podcasts. I’m not saying that the CBC does a bad job with its podcasts, but we were talking about true crime and things like that.

You could probably start an entire podcast series just on the archives of the radio drama series that had some of the greatest actors and greatest productions. You could start a whole thing. You don’t have to tell the 19-year-olds that the people they are listening to are dead. These are just great stories and great directors: great stories about true crimes, spooky stuff for Halloween. I don’t want to simplify it, but that’s just one example of some of the things that could help the CBC get back on track to have a taste for it.

Those things were also all produced regionally, as well as out of the great big box in Toronto, or these many little boxes. When I started, I was at the nunnery.

Senator Quinn: I’m sorry to interrupt again. Senator Simons referred to the “big blue building” or “big blue box” as well. Is there too much dominance from the big blue box at the expense of the little blue boxes out there? In other words, is it so dominated that the relevance of the little blue boxes is lost?

Mr. Fenton: Any time you silo that, people are going to work in silos. If you conglomerate that, particularly in networking on the news side, and you put it all in one building, and they see each other at work every day —

Senator Quinn: Would it be fair for me to summarize — because I’m running out of time — by saying that you have to reinvent the CBC to match today’s marketplace and audience?

Mr. Franklin: I think your assumption is wrong. I think your assumption of little blue boxes and big blue boxes is wrong.

Senator Quinn: I’m sorry, I’m just using Mr. Fenton’s language.

Mr. Franklin: One, the colour is weird. Two, it is just not true. Let’s take Sydney as an example. When Sydney had its own supper hour program, it used so much money, and radio hardly received any, in comparison. In Sydney, I think the CBC is totally invested in local.

Senator Quinn: So, in your view, we don’t have to reinvent the CBC?

Mr. Franklin: Holy Jeez. They expanded.

Senator Quinn: Now you are sounding like a Maritimer.

Mr. Franklin: They are still expanding. I don’t know where they are getting the money, but they are still expanding. They just announced last week —

Senator Quinn: My chair might tell you where the money is coming from.

Mr. Franklin: I don’t know. I just know that, over the years, they have expanded, even with cuts. So, they have done something, and they have expanded in the digital frame. Places like Calgary or Edmonton have online teams — I hate the word “digital” because it is so misleading — that are providing video text content. So, that expanded. In 2015, there was a huge switch where, all of a sudden, we invested far more effort into those areas regionally. I’m saying that we should hold on to assumptions.

Senator Quinn: Things are okay from your point of view?

Mr. Franklin: I’m not saying that they are okay. I’m just saying that it is not like, “Oh, my god, all the money exists in Toronto.” The biggest expenditure is the regions in terms of resources.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: We don’t have the figures. The other day they asked us if we have figures. I don’t want to contradict you.

Senator Quinn: I think I do.

Mr. Franklin: If you were to look at the number of employees. Is Vancouver a region? Yes. Well, it is.

Mr. Fenton: We like to think that it is representing the entire population of British Columbia.

Mr. Franklin: There are six stations in British Columbia. There weren’t six stations 10 years ago.

Senator Cuzner: Is the big blue box a way of saying that they recycle a lot of content?

Mr. Franklin: That’s a good point because content management is a big thing.

Senator Cuzner: The mission we are on is that we are not trying to save manned lighthouses. We know that navigational aids keep mariners safe and help with traffic. You mentioned Sydney. At one time, we had almost 100 staff members in Sydney when we had the news program. We have no television now. We have one guy with a camera, and he does all the audio. He is the front guy, so he does it all.

Rick, when you were recording Jann Arden, I would imagine that you brought her in, put her on reel-to-reel recording and helped coach those artists through a lot.

Our local station in Sydney is incredible. It’s dialled in with our community. Our two on-air main hosts in the morning — Steve Sutherland and Wendy Bergfeldt — are incredible on-air personalities. They continue to play local music, but it’s not necessarily recorded at the CBC anymore because the technology has changed so much. They have navigational aids now.

We want to maintain the culture, the news and the essence of those communities and to celebrate those communities, but it is about looking for what works best. We can step back from the bricks and mortar. We can step back from the reel-to-reel operations, and a lot of it can be done with local technicians now. That is available. I’m wondering what the areas are that will enable us to keep the ship safe, but not man the lighthouses. Where can we continue to obtain that content? CBC content like “Schitt’s Creek” is a gem. I’m still a “This Hour Has 22 Minutes” fan. There are all kinds of great content.

What can we do locally to preserve the opportunity for keeping those lines in, but find the savings and the right mix to make sure that we can continue maintaining those local stations?

Mr. Fenton: I don’t want to become hung up on the technology. When I refer to blue boxes, I am referring to the amount of spending at a certain point.

Let’s move on. Technology changes so fast. We all know this. There are apps now where people can record an entire album on their cell phone. You could argue that perhaps they could use some training to make a better album on their cell phone, and that is certainly the case when it comes to writing, but we come back to ideas. In my business, I can’t be hung up on the technology, but if we look at the CBC and the amount of creativity that it has the ability to generate through mentorship, working with artists and working with people, saying, okay, this is a great idea. This is a great artist. This is a great song. This is a great thing that will capture the imagination of a wide group of people, and not just nationally.

Of course, we want to represent things nationally — that’s a huge part of the mandate — but everything is international now, by definition. There is nothing that exists on this that is particularly Canadian. It is in the hands of everybody who, I hope, will listen. We do demographics on somebody who suddenly starts playing music that we created in Sweden. We don’t know why, but we have to go find out why. Great ideas will certainly outshine technology.

Going back to what you were talking about with regard to the old CBC, or the beginning days, we weren’t slaves to technology, but it was the only way to get it done. Consoles cost $1.2 million. Neumann microphones were $3,000, $4,000 or $5,000. We had the ability to do it. No one else could create mobiles, television or radio. Now, those things can exist on your cell phone. Flip it open, and away you go. That’s a good thing. However, that doesn’t change the CBC’s responsibility to find those artists and those ideas — that’s what I think — and to find the people who can nurture those ideas. We like to think that we did that as producers. Perhaps we failed sometimes, and perhaps we succeeded — I like to think — a lot of the time. Our job was to go out, find, listen, sit and chase. I know Senator Simons from back in the day when she was known as the greatest chase producer out there on earth. She could find anybody.

I am passionate about that. I know Mr. Franklin has thoughts on this, but I think that identifying ideas, creating them, facilitating them and weaving them into the cultural railroad of Canada is a responsibility that the CBC’s mandate was created for.

Senator Cuzner: I think the essence of the study is that we want to make sure the opportunities are given to the Bruce Guthros and not necessarily to the Bruce Springsteens.

Mr. Franklin: Okay. What does CBC Music do now to encourage music talent? Do you know what they do?

Senator Cuzner: I know locally what they do.

Mr. Franklin: Do you know what Searchlight is?

Senator Cuzner: Yes.

Mr. Franklin: Searchlight is a big deal, and they have a number of those things. We didn’t have those things when Rick was a music producer. It shifted. There are fewer resources, but the goal is the same: to encourage emerging music. The goal has been the same even though they have fewer resources.

When you are asking about policies or the words that you put into an act, yes, you keep it the same. The financing is a whole other deal. Your goal is the same. The people who work in music — even though there are fewer — have the same goal.

Mr. Fenton: I’m laughing because when I heard “back when Rick was a producer,” I suddenly saw a virtual pterodactyl fly through the room. I am still creating things. I’m still a producer, but your point is well taken.

Mr. Franklin: I think that’s an important part in the local, regional — or whatever we want to call it — intent. From the start of the CRTC and the CBC, the goal initially was distribution: How can we get people in Canada to hear? In television, it is to hear and see. That still continues to be the goal today. It is just on many different platforms, and it is fractured, as Sue Gardner said yesterday. That’s a reality, but you don’t give up on the goal.

Mr. Fenton: I don’t want to limit it to music. I think we are weaving art, so that is the CBC’s mandate. I don’t want to focus just on music.

I once wrote with John K. Samson, and he went off and created a score that ended up being part of a new series for the Winnipeg’s Contemporary Dancers, which was adopted by the CBC regionally. That, to me, is creative.

Mr. Franklin: How are we doing?

The Chair: We are doing fantastic.

Mr. Franklin: Is this of any value?

The Chair: We can package this and get the CBC to broadcast it on a weekly basis.

Senator Dasko: I feel a little bit like the Grinch who stole Christmas with my next question.

We have a scenario in which the number of viewers of CBC Television are declining in English Canada. We heard it from many sources.

Mr. Franklin: True. When you say “television,” it’s different from video.

Senator Dasko: Okay.

Mr. Franklin: It is very important. I’ll tell you why it’s important.

Senator Dasko: There are two networks on television.

Mr. Franklin: Do you know “Marketplace”?

Senator Dasko: I do.

Mr. Franklin: “Marketplace” is the highest-performing current affairs program in news. It has a million viewers every Friday, or and maybe it’s less.

A couple of years ago, the numbers didn’t go up. They were depressed because they weren’t doing as well on television. But what were they doing online? Oh, my God. They had excelled. They went beyond television with video online and with text.

Senator Dasko: You are talking about “Marketplace”?

Mr. Franklin: “Marketplace.” My only point is this: Stop focusing on declining television. Focus on the whole picture: How many people see all that incredible content of “Marketplace,” which is amazing. We all know it, and the audience knows it.

If you want to focus on television and say, “Oh, the revenues are down,” because the audiences are fractured — okay, but look at the whole picture. Yesterday, you brought up “The National,” asking, “Where would I watch “The National” on television?” “The National” is everywhere: bits of it, whole pieces of it, are online everywhere.

Senator Dasko: Perhaps you don’t see the problems that I do going forward.

We’ve had witnesses come here, and many of them say that advertising should be cut. Right there is a massive drop of 30% of revenue for the CBC. Other people are saying that not just the advertising revenue should go, but the public purse should also go.

Mr. Franklin: Yes, sure.

Senator Dasko: That taxpayers shouldn’t pay for this anymore. There is another source gone. The way I see it unfolding is that these are significantly declining resources.

In that scenario, maybe you have pots of money somewhere that you know of and that I’ve not heard of, but in this scenario, we’ve heard people talk about different ways to deal with it. One is that we have all those mandates, so do everything far less well, cut everything, which means that everything is still done, but less well, or choose areas to focus on and make choices.

What would those choices be? Would it be news and public affairs? We had Chris Waddell here. That’s the kind of model that he sees. Do we do just local news, or do we just focus on music, arts and culture or whatever? What are the choices? What should the CBC focus on in this scenario?

Maybe you don’t believe that this is a future scenario for the CBC.

Mr. Franklin: This has always been the scenario. As long as I’ve been there, it has always been the scenario.

Senator Dasko: This particular government increased its funding for the CBC, but I don’t think we are looking at that down the road.

Mr. Franklin: We’re not, and when Jean Chrétien was in power, he reduced it substantially — probably the biggest reduction — even more than Brian Mulroney.

Senator Dasko: When they did budget cuts in Paul Martin’s second budget, the CBC was hit, along with 20 other areas of federal spending. Mr. Harper’s government. Anyway, I’m not looking at a scenario where the CBC gets more revenue.

Mr. Franklin: For sure.

Senator Dasko: Especially sincere voices are saying that they shouldn’t do advertising anymore.

So, what do you think the scenario should be in that future world?

Mr. Fenton: I think we should go back to being creationists. I completely understand.

When we started talking about this, I said that pots of money are not going to fall into the CBC’s lap anymore, nor do they do that anywhere. From Live Nation down to small clubs, arts organizations and news organizations, it’s becoming very fractured.

I’m not going to be in a position any time soon to send cheques to the CBC in hopes that it does well. The advertising question is a huge question. We are starting to see now the monetization of each individual piece of content. It started with podcasts, but now you can see it everywhere. Netflix, Prime Video and those folks couldn’t maintain that model of free programming, so now it’s: “Spend more money, and we will waive your advertising.”

I’m not an economist, but at the same time, I do understand that there is a responsibility to the people of Canada that the money being given to the CBC needs to be restructured. Restructuring it, without keeping an eye on regional programming and the responsibility of the mandate, is a mistake. It’s a scenario of the baby and the bath water. Again, the CBC — I believe — has to lead by example. It has to start creating these stories.

“Marketplace” is an example. It has to start being able to go to the government with something. Now or then, back in the day, it has never been good at going back and saying, “Okay, fiscally, here are the steps we are taking, and here are some of the pods we feel are monetizable,” worldwide, Canada-wide, and then feeding that back into the mandate of the CBC.

That’s a much bigger question. Havoc may have thoughts on this, but throwing commercials out of television has been talked about since I was there when I started at 20 years old.

If you ask the private broadcasters, they have one answer. If you have people who want to see “Hockey Night in Canada,” they have another answer.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the information presented by you, the committees and the senators on these committees, and the government in power.

Senator Cardozo: Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

This is quite an interesting discussion. Let me focus a little bit more on local programming. The way I see the CBC now, you have radio, television and streaming. There are many different things I’ll include in that third basket.

Between news and music, which have been talked about quite a bit — although they haven’t talked about it much to date — and entertainment programming, which is the strongest part that reflects, caters to and comes from regions?

Mr. Franklin: That’s a slightly peculiar question in this sense: If I thought about what “local” means, it means all those things, for sure. So, the product given today in Sydney or in Kamloops is content that has a range. It’s usually done through talk.

Which is the one that’s the most important? In my mind, it’s talking about what people think that people in that locality and region want to hear and is relevant. That’s how I would answer.

Local is so important because it’s so close. When you do a local program, you feel the audience; you do. You observe reactions. You understand the importance of it when there’s a forest fire, and the crucial part of it.

I’m struggling a bit with how to answer your question.

Senator Cardozo: No, you are doing fine. Your answer is clarifying what I’m trying to understand.

The other part is the changing nature of media. You have the falling away of a lot of private broadcasting locally in radio and television. You have the falling away of newspapers locally.

Mr. Franklin: Yes.

Senator Cardozo: One could argue that there is a special role now for CBC/Radio-Canada. Do you agree with me? Could you expand on what that might be?

Mr. Franklin: If you look at Goose Bay, there is a station there. If you look at the Maritimes, there are three stations in New Brunswick. Moncton, Dieppe and Memramcook are very different than Fredericton, and you can feel it when you are doing those programs.

It is important, and somehow, that local connection enriches. The biggest issue, though, is that the biggest audiences are in large locations.

Senator Cardozo: That’s fine.

Mr. Franklin: So, it’s about your definition of success. What is your definition of success? I’m not asking you that, but I’m saying —

Senator Cardozo: You’ve been asking everyone else questions. Can’t I answer one?

Mr. Franklin: Yes, you can, but that definition of success and expectation is very important.

Mr. Fenton: To carry on from that, I don’t know about the definition of success, but for regional stories, a certain amount of that content is important to the region. We’ve all seen stories from these regions that pull us together and weave us together as Canadians. Some of those resonate with all of us. Something might be happening in a mine in Halifax or with a miner’s strike. So, we are affected by other people.

That brings me to my greatest fear, which I think is happening — and I will get in trouble here — which is the homogenization of what is left of mainstream traditional media. Yes, you can go out and find anything you want in the digital playground. We won’t call it digital anymore; we will call it “online playground.”

Mr. Franklin: It doesn’t matter. Everything is digital.

Mr. Fenton: Yes, sure. For that homogenization, let’s look at mainstream radio. Thank goodness for campus radio. Right now in the U.S., it became so homogenized that we look at the national college charts having more influence with new and upcoming artists than mainstream radio. If we look at the big three corporations that run radio stations, they are computerized playlists, which are designed for one thing, and one thing only — to sell blue jeans. They also sell other products, but I always use the blue jeans analogy because it’s easy.

So, they play the same thing in Halifax, Goose Bay and Vancouver. I was working with a DJ who worked for one of the large three out of Lethbridge, Alberta. He saw a band or artist and played them on his show. That was picked up by the computer system, and they ended up having a number-four rock hit in Canada. That is all because the computer system picked them up. That’s something that’s wrong.

I want the CBC to continue to create that individuality and fight that homogenization that we are seeing now.

Senator Cardozo: To come back to your question, what is your definition of success of the local CBC in Glace Bay or Churchill?

Mr. Franklin: It is to connect with as many people as possible with content relevant to their lives.

Mr. Fenton: Numbers have to play a role. We have never been able to analyze data the way we can now. Analytics is through the roof in everything we do. You can’t just ignore it.

You have to have an ethic and say that we do this to serve the community. We do this to make sure our community is held together and feels combined by the stories that we weave into their lives.

At the same time, somebody is going to come down and ask what your population is and how many people are watching.

Senator Cardozo: Mr. Franklin, you mentioned that CBC content is all over the place. Is the CBC, in a sense, becoming the studio for a lot of different online content that will be produced in the studio and maybe shown on television, which very few people are watching, but its content is going to be all over the place?

Mr. Franklin: It is already. It could be better.

Senator Cardozo: So, its role is becoming the studio for these many platforms?

Mr. Franklin: We have the Broadcasting Act. That’s so out of date, isn’t it — a “broadcast” act?

The Chair: You say it is so out of date, but we only amended it last year.

Mr. Franklin: Whether you amended it or not, the word “broadcast” seems to be out of date.

Senator Cardozo: What would you replace it with?

Mr. Franklin: Include, at least, “online” and “streaming.”

The Chair: I hate to interrupt, but Senator Cardozo’s time is up.

Senator Clement: Thank you for your careers. Having a committee meeting where we can hear about Joni Mitchell and Jann Arden is cool. Thank you for putting that out there.

Mr. Franklin: I worked on the first documentary about k.d. lang in Halifax when she thought she was Patsy Cline.

Senator Clement: She is fabulous. Her version of “Hallelujah” is fabulous. We forget about that one.

The world is dark and stormy. It feels like people don’t trust institutions anymore or that there is a lessening of trust. We have all heard this. We are now talking about healthy democracies.

I moderated a conversation in Cornwall, Ontario, which doesn’t have a local station.

Mr. Franklin: It gets “Ontario Morning,” which is weird.

Senator Clement: Yes. There was a group of people who were chatting, and they felt more connected to anything local such as the city council and local news. We still have a few newspapers; we are fortunate.

It would be great to have more access to CBC/Radio-Canada reporters. When the trucks are in Cornwall, by the way, people talk about it. How do we get more of that?

Mr. Franklin: In Thunder Bay, there is no local television. There is no CRTC requirement or anything like that. They started to shoot some stories and put them online. The discovery was that when people see themselves in a community in a product — like online — then they feel more connected to it. That’s what they discovered.

They didn’t do tonnes of it. They don’t have the resources to do tonnes of it, but when they did it, they discovered a response. It wasn’t a measured response in terms of how many people watched; it was just the reaction.

So, you are right. How do you do that?

Senator Clement: Without cutting something else?

Mr. Franklin: Look at what they just tried to do. I’m not totally in favour of it, but they put journalists in locations like Lethbridge or Kingston; they have a person in Kingston. So, they expanded that in the last two weeks.

Senator Clement: Right.

Mr. Franklin: Now, that’s a news-driven thing. It’s missing some of the cultural part. You can’t do everything, but it’s a good thing to do.

What amazes me is that when those local stations that I worked on, just in terms of development — I didn’t go there and work for days and days, but I helped set them up, not operationally, but in their intent — they all became successful. They all became number one. Victoria used to get just Vancouver programming. When it started, Vancouver programming still dominated. That’s no longer the case, because they want to hear what’s happening in and around Saanich and Victoria.

To me, that’s a given, whether you can do it financially, but the intent is key.

Mr. Fenton: Going back to the word “trust,” that’s where that trust comes from. Yes, I adore k.d. lang, and I loved recording all those people and working on TV shows with Ian Tyson, but I strongly believed in the survival information that was being given out in those communities. I’ve heard people say, “Well, who cares? They can get it in other ways.” I’m saying, “Well, not when you have embedded teams of people who are entwined in the community.” I keep using that word, but who live and breathe that community. Honestly, people do want to know if there’s a fire, why and what’s going on. That’s human nature.

That breeds that trust — going back to your issue — of the people who are telling you the stories. You have to trust them.

Again, to your question, senator, there is less and less trust. We have raised a generation — through no fault, perhaps, of our own, perhaps of their own peers — where trust in the online world is in very short supply. Those people whom you invite into your homes to be told stories about your community, Canada and all of us, incites a sense of trust that goes a long way, certainly, maybe more than ever.

We used to watch news anchors and trust them because they were news anchors; that was it. But that’s certainly not true anymore. I think that regional programming can help create that trust in the community.

Mr. Franklin: They trust you more if you are there.

Mr. Fenton: That’s right.

Senator Clement: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, and on behalf of the committee, I would like to thank both of our witnesses and turn now to our second panel.

[Translation]

Honourable senators, we are continuing our study of local and regional services provided by CBC/Radio-Canada, focusing on Western Canada.

For our second group of witnesses tonight, we welcome, by video conference, Denis Simard, President, and Marc Masson, Political Analyst and media contact, from the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise; Nathalie Lachance, President, and Isabelle Laurin, Executive Director, from the Association canadienne-française de l’Alberta; Marie-Nicole Dubois, Chair of the Board of Directors, and Emmanuelle Corne Bertrand, Executive Director, from the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique.

Welcome, and thank you for joining us.

We will first hear opening remarks of five minutes each, starting with Mr. Simard, followed by Ms. Lachance and Ms. Dubois. We will then proceed to a question period.

Mr. Simard, you have the floor.

Denis Simard, President, Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise: The Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, or ACF, thanks you for the invitation. We are honoured to appear before you for this study on services provided by Radio-Canada. My name is Denis Simard, and I’m President of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise. I’m accompanied by Marc Masson, Political Analyst and media contact.

Before I begin, let me say that I’m speaking today from the traditional Métis territories of Treaties 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10.

The ACF is the voice of the Fransaskois community and represents the 53,000 French-speaking residents of Saskatchewan. The ACF has a long history of promoting French-language mass media in Saskatchewan. We played a major role in setting up four French-language radio stations in the Prairies in the 1940s and 1950s, and have provided strong support for French-language print media since 1912. We consider Radio-Canada to be the cornerstone of French media in Canada.

We support the idea of a public broadcaster that can reach the entire population while respecting regional particularities and operating in both official languages.

As a reminder, part of paragraph 3(1)(d) of the Canadian Broadcasting Act calls on Canadian media to enhance the vitality of official language minority communities and support and assist their development by taking into account their specific needs and interests, including through supporting the production and broadcasting of original programs by and for those communities.

Among the media outlets active in Saskatchewan, Radio-Canada alone is willing and able to meet that objective of the act. Radio-Canada has two newsrooms with studios in Saskatchewan, located in Regina and Saskatoon. You’ll find the services offered appear to be comprehensive, and programming provides good news coverage in the province. Here is a quick overview of what Radio-Canada has to offer in Saskatchewan. The station produces two daily radio shows, for five and a half hours of local programming every day. It broadcasts a news program, the Téléjournal de la Saskatchewan, as well as a short TV news bulletin on weekends. A cultural radio program is broadcast on Saturdays, and a TV show on Western artists is on the air on Sundays. The West also produces a weekly youth program. In addition, provincial, regional and community news is published online, and the provincial election night is broadcast on television.

I’ll take this opportunity to express our concern about a worrying trend towards a gradual and constant erosion of services. This trend undermines the station’s ability to produce content and to contribute fully and actively to the development of our community. The erosion began when Radio-Canada’s music recording studios were eliminated, and the film studios were shut down in Regina. The closures eliminated the capacity to produce works such as phonograms, tapings of shows or special events such as a Christmas program, and broadcasts of telethons or special programming.

The advent of digital technology created the need to continually feed the digital platform. As a result, resources once available for content production were redirected to web production. The shift to web content at regional stations came at the expense of new content production. This changed the newscast somewhat, for lack of material. The thematic reports, portraits of public figures, and even special programs offered in the past are increasingly rare.

Four years ago, Radio-Canada divested itself of its infrastructure in Regina. The station had the potential to be a major cultural production centre. Ironically, the Radio-Canada building in Regina now houses the Provincial Archives of Saskatchewan.

On a final note, over the last year, the Western region, from Manitoba to British Columbia, lost most of its communications team. We believe that promoting and connecting with the community is a must in a context where francophone immigration to Canada is on the rise and renewing our communities, and where digital platforms have saturated the airwaves.

Twelve years ago, Radio-Canada had eight people involved in promotion and communications in the four western provinces. Nowadays, three people cover the entire territory. The communications service builds partnerships that lead to projects and initiatives that in turn develop and enhance our communities. These initiatives still exist, but we’re seeing that Radio-Canada’s presence has diminished. We find the situation worrying.

Another concern voiced often by our members speaks to the Quebec-centric nature of Radio-Canada’s regular programming. Our national organization, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, or FCFA, has long asked Canadian Heritage to set up a second production centre outside of Quebec to ensure that Radio-Canada’s national programming is diverse. The FCFA also recommends that the CRTC make it a condition of licence renewal. We’ve expressed our fears over the regional station’s ability to serve Saskatchewan’s francophones. It should be noted, however, that several other Radio-Canada services are offered in Saskatchewan: ICI Musique, CBC Radio 1 and Radio 2, as well as the two 24-hour news networks, RDI and CBC News Network. The two specialty pay channels, ARTV and Explora, and the digital services Tou.tv and Gem are also available.

The Chair: Mr. Simard, your speaking time is up. I am required to give the floor to Ms. Dubois.

Marie-Nicole Dubois, Chair of the Board of Directors, Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique: Mr. Chair, Madam Deputy Chair, members of the committee, let me first thank you for launching consultations on this important topic, and thank you for inviting the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, or FFCB. Although scattered across the province, with no geographical stronghold, our francophone and francophile community is constantly expanding and represents a potential audience of nearly 330,000 people.

Communications are essential for minority francophone communities and were identified as one of the priorities throughout the country. Like the FCFA, we want the francophone media landscape to be diverse, and we want francophone and Acadian communities to enjoy strong visibility thanks to community media, communication channels on all digital platforms and Société Radio-Canada.

In British Columbia, we have a specific set of issues that I’d like to invite you to consider in your study. Technological advances, such as digital distribution, should’ve given French-speaking communities outside Quebec more diversified, fairer French-language TV services but this isn’t the case. In British Columbia, access to French-language channels is limited and of uneven quality. Too often, distributors either don’t offer French-language services at all, do so at too high a price, or have poor quality offerings. There are still areas in British Columbia where the provincial Radio-Canada signal is unavailable. In Nelson and Sun Peaks, for example, the Radio-Canada signal comes from Montreal.

This situation is unacceptable given that Radio-Canada is critical to the vitality of our communities and the only medium through which francophones can discover what’s happening in their region, in French. Despite some shortcomings, the SRC has made great efforts to better reflect the lived experience of francophones in minority communities. Its website, regional news and new radio programming are some examples of this. Efforts are hampered by limited resources. Many of our associations complain about not having enough journalists in their regions and not having enough coverage of events outside of Vancouver and Victoria. There is only one journalist covering all of Vancouver Island. People complain that journalists don’t cover weekend events. There’s also content that’s considered too Montreal-centric, as Mr. Simard was saying earlier. Our community sees Radio-Canada not only as a source of information, entertainment and general culture, but also as a tool for transmission, growth and development.

The Crown corporation is one of the pillars underpinning Canada’s official languages policy. It is important that it be given the resources required to fulfill its mandate and reflect the various regions. We support the FCFA’s idea of a second national production centre outside Quebec to produce news and current affairs programs. This would be in line with the modernized Official Languages Act, which recognizes the vulnerability of French as a minority language. The federation is keen to emphasize the importance of strengthening the capacity of Radio-Canada’s regional stations and is campaigning for better community access.

In British Columbia, access to radio services is limited. There is only one community radio station in the Victoria area, aside from la Première Chaîne and Espace musique, but la Première Chaîne is not available in all regions. In our view, all francophones in British Columbia should at least have access to the SRC’s Première Chaîne, but they can’t listen to Radio-Canada in Comox, for example, because the radio signal doesn’t go that far. That said, local content on the SRC is important. The Crown corporation makes significant efforts to cover the province’s francophone community events, festivals, public affairs and activities.

The SRC and francophone organizations have worked to nurture collaborative ties that go both ways. In conclusion, despite the progress made due to new technology, French-speaking Canadians are not currently accessing a diversified enough range of SRC broadcasting services to be adequately informed, educated and entertained. English-speaking Canadians are much better served. Clearly, sustained investment and incentives are required to address this inequality. Thank you for your attention.

The Chair: Thank you very much. We haven’t solved the issue with Ms. Lachance yet. Mr. Simard, if you wish, you may conclude your remarks.

Mr. Simard: Thank you, senator.

In conclusion, our relationship with Radio-Canada has long revolved around community cohesion, artist development, youth inclusion and the promotion of the francophonie. For the health of this relationship, we are of the view that decision-making needs to be decentralized and the regions need some leeway. The worsening of issues we mentioned earlier are often the result of decisions imposed by the centralized, mostly Montreal-based hierarchy. Thank you for the opportunity to present these ideas. We’d be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

The Chair: Ms. Lachance, let’s try again.

Nathalie Lachance, President, Association canadienne-française de l’Alberta: Mr. Chair, honourable senators, my name is Nathalie Lachance and I’m President of the Association Canadienne-française de l’Alberta, or ACFA. With me is our Executive Director, Isabelle Laurin. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you.

The ACFA represents more than 260,000 French-speaking Albertans. It’s a dynamic and growing community, increasingly diverse thanks to migration and immigration. For nearly 100 years, our mission has been to defend the gains of Alberta’s French-speaking community and advance its rights.

Today, as we celebrate the 75th anniversary of the creation of CHFA community radio station in Alberta, which became Radio-Canada in 1974, we would like to underline the essential role played by Radio-Canada for our francophone communities, particularly in Alberta and Western Canada. By guaranteeing access to French-language media, Radio-Canada connects our communities to the national media landscape. As set out in subparagraph 3(1)(m)(ii) of the Broadcasting Act, CBC/Radio-Canada’s programming must reflect Canada’s diversity, both nationally and regionally. For members of our communities, being represented, seen and heard in the media strengthens their sense of belonging and helps prevent assimilation.

That’s why we support Radio-Canada’s initiatives out west, particularly those of our regional radio station, ICI Alberta. Despite a decline in local programming in recent years — an issue we’ve repeatedly denounced — ICI Alberta remains an essential pillar. Its programs such as Le café show, La croisée, Le Téléjournal Alberta, the youth program ONIVA! and reports on community events provide a francophone perspective tailored to our reality. ICI Alberta is also a key partner in major gatherings such as the Congrès annuel de la francophonie albertaine and the Fête franco-albertaine.

In emergencies, Radio-Canada is often the only source of French-language information available. This was the case during the Calgary floods in 2013, the Fort McMurray forest fires in 2016, the more recent 2023 fires in the Northwest Territories and last summer’s fires in Jasper.

Without Radio-Canada, francophones in Alberta and the West will become more isolated and vulnerable, especially since there are no private francophone media outlets in our part of the country. Community radio stations, such as Radio Cité, Radio Nord-Ouest FM and Boréal FM, and our newspaper, Le Franco, do incredible work, but they all face major challenges, including the dominance of digital giants like Google and Meta. Community media can’t compete with those giants. They don’t have the same reach or human and financial resources as the public broadcaster, Radio-Canada. When Bill C-11 came into force, their access to the public via social media was also restricted. As such, Radio-Canada complements these media; it doesn’t compete with them.

To ensure the longevity of French-language services in Alberta and the West, Radio-Canada must have adequate long-term funding. There are currently services in French in Edmonton and Calgary, but reflecting what goes on in other parts of the province is crucial. Last week, we learned that the CBC is planning to expand its services into several communities in the West. This is in addition to the 2022 expansion that included Lethbridge and Grande Prairie in Alberta. What about French-language services? Will budgets enable existing francophone teams to travel to other regions to ensure more representative media coverage? One third of Alberta’s francophones live outside of Edmonton and Calgary, and they deserve regional equity.

The prospect of a weaker CBC raises concerns. In our regions, the CBC and Radio-Canada complement one another, sharing technical resources, tools and other operational aspects. If the CBC’s capacity dwindles, that will have an impact on Radio-Canada and, consequently, on French-language services in minority communities.

Another concern is bias in Radio-Canada’s and the CBC’s national content, much of which focuses on Eastern Canada, that is, on Quebec and Ontario. The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, which the ACFA is a member of, recommends the creation of a second national production centre outside Quebec. Francophone populations in the West are growing, so we believe a new centre should be established in the region in order to better reflect the diversity of Canada’s francophonie.

In short, refocusing on the needs of minority francophone communities and enhancing coverage in Alberta and the West are absolute priorities. Refocusing should be an even bigger priority in light of the new Official Languages Act, which recognizes the vulnerability of French as a minority language in North America and emphasizes the importance of promoting and protecting the language.

In addition, consultations between Radio-Canada and francophone communities must be more authentic and inclusive. The CRTC has required such consultations since 2013, but they’re often seen as one-way information session rather than a real dialogue. Radio-Canada must adopt a more transparent and proactive approach and better integrate communities’ concerns. Creating a national advisory committee, as recommended by the FCFA, would be a step in the right direction.

In closing, honourable senators, we urge you to consider the reality of francophones in Alberta and Western Canada. As a national broadcaster, Radio-Canada has a crucial role to play in boosting the visibility of local francophone initiatives and ensuring equal access to media services in French. I also want to emphasize how important community media are to telling our stories as francophones.

Thank you for your attention, and we’re ready to answer your questions.

The Chair: Thank you very much. We will now proceed to questions from senators, starting with the committee vice-chair, Senator Miville-Dechêne.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Good evening everyone. Thank you very much for your compelling testimony. Yes, Radio-Canada is indeed very Montreal-centric. That was my impression as a journalist, as ombud and then as a reporter in Toronto. That’s a fact. Yesterday, I saw a report on the francophonie in Yukon. I practically leaped out of my hotel bed because it has been such a long time since I last saw that kind of coverage on Téléjournal. It’s rare.

I’m trying to think of solutions. This is a mandate issue. Do you believe francophones should have protected funding? Should Radio-Canada’s mandate be changed to include a set threshold? You talked about a second production centre, which is very intriguing, but I think it would be a never-ending battle. Where would such a production centre be located? Acadia would lobby for it, and so would you. Try to answer quickly, because I’m not the only one with questions. I don’t know who wants to start. Be brief, like a Radio-Canada report.

Mr. Simard: I’d like to take that. Thank you very much for the question, senator. It’s often surprising how, if we put all the francophone community representatives together in a room, which happens regularly with the ACFA, people agree on solutions. It would be easy enough to talk about a production centre and put that on the table with the ACFA. It might be easy to find solutions.

Absolutely, there has to be protection. The new Official Languages Act is clear. We need mechanisms to protect the French fact in Canada. Radio-Canada is one of the mechanisms that allows us to see and hear ourselves and each other. It’s important to remember that our young people need access to good models. They need to see themselves. They need to understand that living in French, especially in Western Canada, is not just about making that choice. It’s something very doable. People can live in French in Western Canada despite everything around us, despite the overwhelming anglophone presence that keeps trying to beat us down and kill us. We can, and we need a media outlet like Radio-Canada that is protected and that enables us to see and hear ourselves and gives our artists a way to gain recognition around the world.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: You all emphasized the importance of community media. Should Radio-Canada broadcast them, too? Should there be greater synergy for maximum visibility? I’ll start with the representative from Alberta.

Ms. Lachance: Ms. Dubois seems to be frozen, so I’ll go.

I think a partnership with community media would be useful. There are ways to work together that could be beneficial. We need strong, vibrant community media.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Does anyone else have anything to add about how to help you by strengthening Radio-Canada’s mandate?

Ms. Lachance: Your solution is a good one. I think it’s important to clearly identify something for the francophonie outside of Quebec. I know you’re meeting with our colleagues from Acadia next week, but we’re all facing the same challenges when it comes to not really seeing ourselves reflected as much as we would like on Radio-Canada nationally.

Ms. Dubois: I’d like to add that it needs to be “by and for”. That is what our communities are really lacking.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: What do you mean?

Ms. Dubois: I mean that it has to be done by us and for us.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Sorry, I didn’t get that. “By and for” was too short.

Ms. Dubois: By and for, yes.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Right now, you’re saying you have local news that you produce, but you get too much news and information from other places, including Quebec?

Ms. Dubois: Exactly, and only from Quebec. I watch francophone television, so here’s an example. There’s a show called La facture. When do they ever come do reports on what’s happening where we live? We see everything that’s going on in Quebec, but things happen where we live, too. They could come here once in a while, but it’s like we’re invisible.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Public affairs programs could go to different places.

Ms. Dubois: Exactly.

Mr. Simard: I’d like to add one last comment. Regina is fortunate to be the training centre for all of Radio-Canada’s new journalists, who come here to learn the trade. It would be really great to find ways to encourage those journalists to stay here. People come to train in the West, but they often go back east because they want to work in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal or Quebec City. We need to find an incentive that will get young people who train here to stay in the West so they can continue to learn about our reality and share it with the rest of Canada.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Shouldn’t there be more voices from where you are? I hear a lot of voices from Quebec and some from France, but are we hearing your voices enough?

Mr. Simard: That’s why I was talking about an accessible model. When young people don’t see themselves and don’t see Fransaskois people anchoring Téléjournal and other programs, they think only Quebeckers and Montrealers can get those jobs. If young people don’t see themselves, they won’t imagine a future in which they can become those people.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Thank you.

Senator Simons: Ms. Lachance and Ms. Laurin, I’m sure you know I’m not really bilingual, but I have to try asking my questions in French.

I have two questions for Ms. Lachance. First, you said that Edmonton has a very diverse and vibrant francophone community that’s really growing. Do you think Radio-Canada is doing enough to reflect the diversity of Alberta’s francophone community? For the first time this summer, I heard a reporter on Radio-Canada who had an African accent, which is an accent I had never heard before.

Ms. Lachance: There are two things I would say to that. First, Alberta’s francophonie is one of the most diverse in the country. It’s estimated that 28% of Alberta’s francophonie was born outside Canada, and two thirds of them were born in Africa. Alberta has a significant francophone population from Alberta. Should these people get more air time on Radio-Canada? Absolutely. We have Jean-Marie Yambayamba, a long-time host of the Café show morning program.

I want to point out that we also have Franco-Albertans whose families have been here for years, some of them for decades or centuries. Some of them are now Radio-Canada journalists. We love being interviewed by young Franco-Albertans, who are proud of their francophone heritage and who were educated in francophone schools. One of them studied at Campus Saint-Jean. History is living on through young Franco-Albertan journalists, and that’s very important to us. Could some things be better? Yes, always.

Senator Simons: You talked about ONIVA!, a nationally broadcast French-language program made in Edmonton and featuring young Edmontonians. I believe it’s the only national television program in either English or French that comes from Edmonton. Do you think the program conveys an Albertan voice for kids in Montreal, Moncton and elsewhere? Is the program really for all Canadians? Does the program have a distinctly Albertan voice?

Ms. Lachance: Yes, I think ONIVA! is clearly an Albertan voice, from the hosts to the entire technical and production team. I know the show generates a lot of excitement when it visits francophone schools. Kids are familiar with the show, and they’re very happy to be part of it. It’s a great thing for us.

Senator Simons: I know the host, Émanuel Dubbeldam, who graduated from a francophone school in Edmonton and is a very good ambassador for francophone schools in Alberta. I’m done. It’s so hard for me to do things in French.

Senator Cardozo: I’ll try to ask my questions in French, too.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I have two questions for you. First, I hear your concerns. Unfortunately, service cuts are all too common in all media, and this is something we have to be vigilant about.

Are there French-language community stations in your provinces?

Second, there’s a proposal to stop funding the CBC English service. If the English service disappeared, would that have an impact on Radio-Canada in your provinces? Can we start with Ms. Dubois?

Ms. Dubois: Thank you. My answer to both of your questions is yes. In Victoria, we have a good-quality community radio station that’s working well. If CBC/Radio-Canada services were cut, that would definitely affect us. Those services are interdependent. Cuts to the English-language network mean cuts for us, too, because we use the cameras and the buildings. It would be problematic.

Senator Cardozo: Thank you.

Ms. Lachance?

Ms. Lachance: We would be affected, too. We have three community radio stations — two in northern Alberta and one in Edmonton — and one community newspaper, Le Franco, which has been around since 1928. There’s a lot of concern about cuts to the CBC and the impact of that on Radio-Canada. We know they work hand in hand in Alberta.

Senator Cardozo: Ms. Dubois, are there community radio stations in other British Columbia cities?

Ms. Dubois: Not to my knowledge.

Senator Cardozo: That’s kind of surprising.

Ms. Dubois: We have a newspaper, La Source.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Do you mean community radio stations or Radio-Canada stations?

Senator Cardozo: I mean community radio stations from outside.

Mr. Simard?

Mr. Simard: We also have community radio stations. There’s one based in Gravelbourg, but that one is province-wide. Over the years, other small radio stations have cropped up. There are individual entrepreneurs who dabble in radio, television and online content to try to convey information to Saskatchewan francophones or cover topics of interest to them. It’s clear to us that if CBC had its capacity radically reduced, lost its building or anything like that, there would be a considerable impact on what Radio-Canada can offer. I’m honoured to have had people come in to do interviews with me a hundred times, and our camera operators are often anglophones. Most of the time, CBC people are the ones supporting francophones because of availability. As a result, the impact will be considerable.

Whenever we do highly technical projects involving special programs in the community, many people in the external control room are anglophones. They work with the francophone technical team on major jobs, because the teams are very small in Western Canada, unfortunately.

Senator Cardozo: It’s interesting that you’re mainly talking about buildings and cameras. If the CBC shuts down, it might leave the buildings and cameras to French services. You talked a lot more about buildings and technical components. Are there services for when you work together?

Mr. Simard: Let me clarify that. What I meant is that anglophones are physically doing the work of camera operators and technicians, often working with our francophone journalists. In our case, the kind of team available to serve the Saskatchewan francophone community would be significantly cut.

I would also add that, whether we like it or not, CBC/Radio-Canada is a known quantity with a good reputation. Its linguistic duality means that it is recognized and has a place in the majority and minority linguistic communities. I cannot help but wonder what impact completely eliminating the CBC would have on Radio-Canada’s reputation. Some people don’t make the distinction. Most Canadians don’t understand that they are two separate entities that work independently of one another, despite sharing a lot of resources. When anglophones hear that the CBC will be eliminated and then see a Radio-Canada truck go by with the same logo on it, they will be confused. I can’t help wondering about the negative effects on Radio-Canada’s reputation, like it or not.

Senator Cardozo: Ms. Dubois, you mentioned the building and the cameras. Are there other challenges for Radio-Canada if the CBC were to disappear?

Ms. Dubois: I agree with what Mr. Simard just said. It would be a problem for the same reasons he mentioned.

Senator Cardozo: Okay. I have another question about online services. In the last few years, many new online services in French and English have popped up in Canada and around the world. Are there local or province-wide online radio services in your provinces?

Mr. Simard: I’ll talk about Saskatchewan. ICI Saskatchewan produces a huge amount of content specific to our province and region. For example, we often celebrate milestones in our history, such as the fiftieth, sixtieth or ninetieth anniversary of an organization. The local team from ICI Saskatchewan puts up an entire section on its website about the organization’s history and features CBC/Radio-Canada archival content to show how the organization has changed over the years. We celebrated our one-hundredth anniversary at the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, or ACF, around 10 years ago. Back then, entire sections of Radio-Canada’s website were devoted to our community’s history.

A huge amount of online and digital content has been created. Once again, the question is determining how accessible it is. Not all of our regions have high-speed internet. There are still regions that can’t see the content because Meta is blocking access to it. Owing to a number of factors, Radio-Canada is out of reach for people young and old, especially seniors. Over 50% of Saskatchewan francophones are 50 plus. That entire generation has to look for digital content, not just the television content they’re used to. They’re not in the habit of doing that. They may not even have internet at home. It is vital to keep in mind that the product should reflect the entire community that it serves. In Saskatchewan, 50% of our community is made up of seniors who might not access the content online.

Senator Cardozo: Would you say that young people in your community in Saskatchewan have access to Radio-Canada content online, on TV or on the radio and that they use it?

Mr. Simard: I don’t have the figures, but I suspect so. Take the TV program “ONIVA!” as an example. Every time the team goes to a school, the teachers have obviously done a lot of work in advance to educate kids and introduce them to the program, and the themes and topics discussed. That adds a lot of traffic.

When the community celebrates anniversaries, our teachers and school principals often create educational tools to guide students through Radio-Canada content so they become familiar with the community’s culture and history.

I’ll come back to what I said in the beginning: The idea is that we need to be accessible role models. Often, Radio-Canada is the only way, or one of the few ways, to show young people that living in French in Saskatchewan is not just something that they learn about in history class or that happens in school. Radio-Canada shows that there are generations of people who have fought for their language. Young people can see role models, listen to them and hear our accent. We all have an accent. You’ll be meeting with some Acadians next week. Their accent is very different from mine. Linguistic insecurity is top of mind for young people. In Saskatchewan, 80% of our young people stop using French by age 25. The ones who keep using it do so because they see and hear themselves reflected, and understand that being francophone is a choice they have. They can see it, feel it, and get the tools they need to live and work in French.

Senator Cardozo: Excellent. Thank you.

Senator Clement: Thank you to all the witnesses.

[English]

Full disclosure, my sister works for Radio-Canada in Montreal.

[Translation]

I have questions for Ms. Laurin and Ms. Lachance. I think I met you this past summer in Edmonton, along with my fellow senator Paula Simons. Is that correct?

Ms. Lachance: It is. We were very happy to meet you.

Senator Clement: I spent a gorgeous sunny day speaking French with some very diverse people. There was even a newly built French-language school, people who looked like me and people from all across Africa. It was a delight.

That’s precisely what my question is about. There are francophone immigrants who leave the country. We saw statistics this week showing that Quebec and Ontario lose francophone immigrants if they don’t feel they can live in French. The reason is actually unclear, but the idea of francophone immigrants leaving Canada is worrisome.

Does CBC/Radio-Canada have a role to play in creating more welcoming communities? What is its responsibility? The Official Languages Act, as you mentioned, talks about francophone immigration and connections. Welcoming communities are also a factor.

Ms. Lachance, you mentioned a one-sided consultation that was a bit lacking. Could you talk more about that, and tell us what would make consultations and dialogue truly effective?

Ms. Lachance: It’s always important to have conversations where we can provide information instead of just hearing it.

To go back to your first point, I heard Mr. Simard talk about how important it is to hear our accents and see ourselves reflected in the media. I think that’s also crucial for immigrant communities. We have a bit of that but need to see more. In Alberta, francophones who have immigrated here talk about their journey. I’m thinking of my colleague Alice Prophète, who writes books about inclusion. In her novels, she talks about her experience as a francophone immigrant to Alberta. For many people, the warmth of the Alberta francophone community keeps them here, where they can continue to thrive and contribute to francophone culture in all its wonderful vitality.

There is no doubt that Radio-Canada has a role to play. I’m thinking of the guest speaker at our conference a few weeks ago, the journalist Omayra Issa. She worked for Radio-Canada for a long time and has produced a lot of documentaries on the 200 years of Black history in Alberta. Alberta’s francophone historical society is in the process of documenting the history of Alberta’s Black francophone community. The organization is working on the profiles of a bunch of people. The documentary should be broadcast on a variety of media, including Radio-Canada’s digital platforms, to showcase Alberta’s wonderful and vibrant francophone community and the fact that it is made up of people from all over the world.

Senator Clement: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. There isn’t much time left, but I have a question. CBC/Radio-Canada’s English network takes a large portion of the annual $1.4-billion pie. To me, the results say it all. Ratings are what determine whether the product works or not, and deserves to get more or less money. I’m wondering when Radio-Canada will stop living in the CBC’s shadow. At some point, we need to set priorities and put our money in the right place. At some point, we also need to have a government that promotes and protects the French language in a serious way. One of our official languages is in decline. Mr. Simard, I’m a little disturbed when I constantly hear members of the francophone community defend CBC/Radio-Canada. One side of CBC/Radio-Canada sucks up all the resources and gives back very little to defend, promote and highlight the French network. Can we hear your comments on that?

Mr. Simard: Thank you for the question. My online colleagues know me for being very honest. I will be very straightforward in my answer.

Simply put, if there was a guarantee that cuts to the CBC would mean more money, resources and people for Radio-Canada, a production centre outside Quebec with decentralized content that is not Quebec-centric and all the resources necessary to produce content all across Canada, including Western Canada, so that Radio-Canada could reflect our communities…. If that were to happen, I can guarantee no one would be marching outside CBC headquarters.

The challenge is that we’ve gone our whole lives knowing that one depends on the other. If you could make an argument simply stating that there is no risk to Radio-Canada, that instead it would get an extra billion dollars, produce infinitely more content and be a better protector of French in Canada, no francophone would protest in front of CBC headquarters. That’s a promise that’s worth a lot to us. However, no one is making such a promise right now. All we’re hearing is that people want to defund the CBC. No one’s talking about making more strategic investments in Radio-Canada. We don’t see the two as going hand in hand. We would need firm commitments on that issue.

The Chair: That is duly noted. As you say, the first step is getting more independence rather than more money. CBC/Radio-Canada’s French network is primarily Montreal-based. You’re right to want assurances that a new entity would deploy more resources outside Quebec with the same enthusiasm it does within Quebec. You’re also right that the resources would have to be guaranteed. I’ve felt for a very long time that investments should be made where they’re needed. The public broadcaster has to meet a societal need. At the same time, taxpayer money should go where the ratings are good, which I feel is the case for CBC/Radio-Canada’s French network.

Unfortunately, we are out of time. Thank you so much to all the witnesses for being here tonight and contributing to our study.

[English]

Honourable colleagues, I will see you at our next meeting.

(The committee adjourned.)