THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, December 10, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met with videoconference this day at 9:01 a.m. [ET] to study matters relating to transport and communications generally.
Senator Leo Housakos (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Good morning, honourable senators. My name is Leo Housakos. I’m a senator from the province of Quebec and chair of this committee. We have a full panel here today for the long-awaited study on copper wire theft. I would like to have my colleagues briefly introduce themselves.
Senator Cuzner: Rodger Cuzner, a senator from Nova Scotia. Welcome.
Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn, New Brunswick.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: I am Clément Gignac from Quebec.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I am Julie Miville-Dechêne from Quebec.
[English]
The Chair: This morning we’ll be looking at copper wire theft and its impact on the telecommunications industry. Joining us this morning, the committee welcomes officials from several government departments. We have a full panel of witnesses. From Public Safety Canada, National and Cyber Security Branch, we’re joined by Brigitte Joly, Director General, Critical Infrastructure Directorate, and with her is Ryan Schwartz, Director of Critical Infrastructure Policy and Analysis. From Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, we are joined by Mr. Wen Kwan, Senior Director, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, and with him is Mr. Andre Arbour, Director General, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector. From the Department of Justice Canada, Criminal Law Section, we are joined by Matthew Taylor, Senior General Counsel and Director General, and we also have with us Matthias Villetorte, Senior Counsel and Team Leader. By video conference, we welcome Chief Superintendent Peter Tewfik, Officer in Charge of K Division, Community Safety and Well-being of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Welcome, and thank you all for joining us. There will be five-minute opening remarks from each of our witnesses — well, not each and every one, but we will have Ms. Brigitte Joly, Mr. Kwan, Mr. Taylor and Mr. Tewfik. Each will have five minutes for opening remarks before I turn it over to my colleagues for Q & A.
[Translation]
Brigitte Joly, Director General, Critical Infrastructure Directorate, National and Cyber Security Branch, Public Safety Canada: Mr. Chair, Madam Deputy Chair and honourable members of the committee, good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to share the Government of Canada’s approach to ensuring the security and resilience of our critical infrastructure. My name is Brigitte Joly, and I am the Director General of the Critical Infrastructure Directorate in the National and Cyber Security Branch at Public Safety Canada. I am responsible for developing and coordinating the federal government’s critical infrastructure policy, and I do that in cooperation with other federal departments and agencies.
I will explain what constitutes critical infrastructure, the approach the federal government has chosen to protect that infrastructure and the work on a renewed approach that responds to evolving threats and risks. I hope to provide an overview of Canada’s critical infrastructure to shed light on your study on copper wire theft, a phenomenon that is disrupting vital systems and creating risks for key economic sectors.
[English]
Canada defines critical infrastructure, what we like to call CI, as the processes, systems, facilities, technologies, networks, assets and services that are essential to the health, safety, security and economic well-being of Canadians and the effective functioning of government. Disruptions of CI could result in catastrophic loss of life, adverse economic effects and significant harm to public confidence.
The Emergency Management Act stipulates that ministers accountable to Parliament for a government institution are to identify the risks that are within or related to their area of responsibility, including those related to critical infrastructure. The Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness is responsible for exercising national leadership in this respect.
The Emergency Management Act does not expressly identify or designate the infrastructure that warrants protection. Canada relies on the statutes of individual sectors or other statutes of general application, including the Criminal Code, to protect critical infrastructure.
To support the Emergency Management Act, in 2009, federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for emergency management approved the National Strategy for Critical Infrastructure. This strategy established voluntary, collaborative approaches to critical infrastructure security and resilience based on three strategic objectives: to build partnerships among federal, provincial, territorial governments and industry; implement an all-hazard risk management approach; and advance the timely sharing and protection of information among partners.
The strategy publicized a definition for critical infrastructure, as I’ve earlier laid out, and established 10 sectors. One result of this broad framework is that nearly all infrastructure may be considered critical infrastructure. The strategy also recognizes that the 10 sectors are interconnected and interdependent. Interdependencies create a risk of cascading failures. For example, theft of copper wire that interrupts communications will disrupt the provision of other essential services such as emergency and financial services.
Responsible federal departments partner with industry on critical infrastructure security and resilience matters through the creation of sector networks. Innovation Science and Economic Development Canada, or ISED, is responsible for the information and communications technology sector. Collaboration on CI issues, including wire theft, advances through the Canadian Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee, or CSTAC. In my capacity as Director General for Critical Infrastructure at Public Safety Canada, I am a government member of CSTAC.
Part of Public Safety Canada’s role is to make connections between our different critical infrastructure sectors and to ensure issues, risks, actions and lessons learned are shared.
Over the years, critical infrastructure has emerged as a high-value target for threat actors, as disrupting CI can impact the Canadian economy and destabilize society. Risks to CI can be of a cyber or physical nature, wire theft being a physical threat. Other risks include blockades, sabotage, terrorism and extreme weather.
The challenge of protecting and safeguarding Canada’s CI is growing more complex. To make sure that we keep pace with the evolving geopolitical and threat landscape, the Government of Canada launched a public consultation on a renewed approach in 2022. Recent federal initiatives such as the National Adaptation Strategy, the Countering Foreign Interference Act and Bill C-26, An Act respecting cyber security, which is under consideration, will contribute to critical infrastructure security and resilience.
In response to the changing threat landscape, Canada’s international allies are implementing new security measures as part of their approach to critical infrastructure security. For example, in April, the United States issued the National Security Memorandum on Critical Infrastructure Security and Resilience which recognizes the limits of a voluntary approach to managing the risks and elevates the importance of minimum security and resilience requirements within and across CI sectors. The European Union and Australia have developed legislative frameworks establishing minimum obligations for critical and digital infrastructure owners and operators.
Taking inspiration from our allies, we are working to adjust our approach so we are better positioned to protect national systems —
The Chair: Ms. Joly, you’re over your five minutes. I am sorry, but I have to move on to the next speaker.
Wen Kwan, Senior Director, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak to this committee today. I would first like to acknowledge that I’m speaking today from the unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin people. I would like to thank them for being stewards of the land and waters in this area since time immemorial.
My name is Wen Kwan, and I’m the acting Director General of the Engineering, Planning and Standards Branch at the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, or ISED. I’m joined today by André Arbour, Director General of the Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch.
[Translation]
ISED has a mandate to promote the resiliency of telecom services, which are fundamental to the safety, prosperity and well-being of Canadians. We collaborate with industry through the Canadian Security Telecom Advisory Committee to address evolving threats that may affect the telecom infrastructure.
Within that committee, the Canadian Telecom Network Resiliency Working Group focuses on improving resiliency. Through this working group, we have heard that copper wire thefts are serious and increasing in frequency. Over 1,300 incidents of these thefts have been recorded by Canadian carriers since January 2022.
[English]
These criminal acts can disrupt emergency 9-1-1 services and adversely affect hospitals, schools and businesses. After each incident, it takes on average 10 to 12 hours for telecom service providers to fully restore internet access, television and phone services to their customers. In some cases, it takes significantly longer, particularly for complex repairs in hard-to-access locations. Sometimes entire communities are left without telephone, wireless and internet services for extended periods until repairs are completed.
While ISED does not have a law enforcement role, we have engaged a range of stakeholders to raise awareness of this copper theft issue. In the spring of this year, ISED coordinated an awareness campaign targeting the general public that resulted in an article being published on the ISED website and a social media post being made and/or amplified by ISED, Public Safety Canada, the RCMP and the telecom service providers. The article was a call to action to help the community stay connected by reporting crimes or suspicious activities targeting telecom infrastructure to law enforcement authorities as well as Crime Stoppers, which have joined forces on this issue.
[Translation]
Currently, ISED officials and telecom service providers are co-authoring an RCMP bulletin for raising awareness in the law enforcement community. We are considering multiple channels for distribution to provincial, municipal and Indigenous police agencies. This bulletin will deliver useful tactical information to help front-line police officers take quick actions to stop copper theft in progress.
[English]
In addition, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry wrote a letter to the Minister of Justice to highlight the importance of this issue, and a senior ISED official wrote to the Public Prosecution Service of Canada seeking their help to raise awareness among prosecutors, including their provincial counterparts, that crimes targeting critical infrastructure have serious consequences.
Mr. Chair, ISED stands ready to continue to work with stakeholders to raise awareness about acts of theft and vandalism against telecom networks. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. That concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Kwan.
[Translation]
Matthew Taylor, Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada: Good morning, senators. I am pleased to appear before this committee to speak about how copper theft is addressed under the criminal law.
Canada has a robust legal framework to address copper theft, including in cases where it may affect telecommunications or other critical infrastructure.
As you likely know, the federal government is responsible for the criminal law, but the investigation and prosecution of specific criminal conduct is the responsibility of the provinces and territories.
[English]
Theft, as you likely know, is the most obvious offence that we would expect to be charged for stealing copper in Canada, but there are other offences that could be charged depending on the circumstances. For example, the offence of mischief could be used if there is destruction, damage or interference with the lawful use or operation of property, or the offence of break and enter could apply when someone illegally enters a building or a structure to steal copper. Other offences like possession of property obtained by crime, possession of that property for the purposes of trafficking or the actual trafficking of property obtained by crime could be applicable in these cases.
My colleague has talked about some of the other work that the government has done, including Bill C-70, which enacted a new offence related to sabotage of essential infrastructure. That, too, could apply in cases where the infrastructure was made inoperable or unfit for use and where there is an intent on the part of the accused to cause a serious risk to the health or safety of the public.
These offences of theft and sabotage are punishable by up to 10 years of imprisonment in the most serious cases. With respect to mischief, where the crime causes danger to life, it is punishable by a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.
[Translation]
After finding an accused guilty of an offence, courts must impose sentences that are proportionate to the degree of responsibility of the offender and the seriousness of the offence.
[English]
The Criminal Code includes a number of sentencing principles to guide courts in crafting just sentences. Sentences should be increased or reduced to account for aggravating or mitigating circumstances relating to the offender or the offence and to impose just and proportionate sentences. There are not many reported cases in Canada concerning copper theft, but a review of the case law we do have indicates that courts consider the harmful impacts that copper wire theft has as aggravating factors. I’ll just give you a couple of examples.
In a 2014 case, R. v. Glew, the Supreme Court of British Columbia found that although the copper wire stolen was of low value, the impact that the theft had on the community was significant, including because it impacted ability to rely on 9-1-1 emergency services. In 2021, a case from Newfoundland involving the theft of copper wife from a power grid — a case called R. v. Boland — the court highlighted the offender’s indifference to the safety of the community and the widespread inconvenience that was caused to the public. In that case, a term of imprisonment of 18 months was imposed.
In both these cases, courts have considered denunciation and deterrence as paramount sentencing objectives. More generally, we know that courts will recognize that any crime that involves public endangerment of the safety of individuals will be more serious and therefore deserving of more appropriately serious punishment.
That concludes our remarks. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, sir.
Peter Tewfik, Chief Superintendent, Officer in Charge of K Division, Community Safety and Well-being: Good morning, everyone.
I want to start by saying that the RCMP takes the issue of copper wire theft seriously. Copper wire is critical for the continuity of a wide variety of services and civil functions, including the provision of emergency services through utilities such as energy and telecommunication infrastructure, as well as for the continuity of government. From my experience in Alberta, copper wire theft is primarily a commodity-driven crime that targets a variety of industries like telecommunications, oil and gas and construction. Copper wire theft directly affects critical infrastructure and can have the effect of limiting access to emergency and government services, as well as creating transportation and/or community safety issues.
The financial cost of this type of crime is significant, not only in the price of the metal that’s been stolen or damaged, but through the impacts to the sites themselves with things like shutdowns for various periods of time. This affects both the businesses and the employees, as well as those receiving the services. Additionally, these crimes sometimes create safety concerns for employees and first responders due to risks like exposed electrical hazards from the damage that’s done.
Earlier this year, two corporations shared with the Alberta RCMP data that identified the number of incidents that they had experienced and the estimated costs associated to the crimes on their sites. For the first organization, over a 12-month period, they experienced 191 incidents across Alberta, totalling just over $3.5 million worth of damage. The second organization, over an 18-month period, experienced about 675 incidents, totalling almost $5 million in damages. Those incidents are primarily related to the theft of copper wire, with corresponding thefts of other property, mischief causing damage to property, break and enters, among other things.
Scrap metal theft and the resulting damage to critical infrastructure are difficult to predict from a proactive policing standpoint. Generally, they don’t follow a consistent pattern. They are crimes of opportunity and are often reported after the fact.
In Alberta, the RCMP has noted that sites affected by scrap metal theft often don’t have basic prevention infrastructure in place, such as fences, lights, cameras, controlled entry or any associated security professionals on site or patrolling. It’s important to note that some theft sites cannot be safeguarded in those manners due to a variety of factors, including their location. That includes some long-running telecommunication wire.
Several challenges have arisen in the investigation of those types of offences, including a lack of consistent provincial scrap metal legislation across the country, the difficulty in identifying and linking stolen metals back to the owner for a successful prosecution, the unpredictable nature of the incidents themselves, as well as the large geographical area across which the site types are located.
The Alberta RCMP has been working with industry and community stakeholders to identify copper wire theft trends and potential targets in the province. This group has landed upon several common issues. First, there are complex factors that prevent the successful investigation into the people committing these crime types. The costs to repair damages are rising, and there are results to critical impacts to operations as well as significant financial losses. Additionally, communication needs to improve between police, government and industry, which includes an underreporting of this crime type by industry.
The Alberta RCMP is working in a number of areas to reduce the impacts of those crimes in our communities, including expanding our online crime reporting to encourage more information and easier submission, prioritizing offenders and focusing on top-priority offenders involved in these crime types, as well as a number of initiatives to help with prevention and intervention. That includes doing on-site crime prevention through environmental design, using our alerts to send out alerts to a local community to let them know the kinds of crimes that are occurring, our capture program, which is a video camera registry that allows people to register their video cameras so that, when an event occurs, we can see what video cameras may be available to us in the area, as well as programs on the intervention side that really look at the offenders, the root causes that drive their offending behaviours, which are often substance abuse, and programs associated with that to address some of those root causes in conjunction with our provincial partners in the space of addictions, social services and employment.
Our work is ongoing to try to reduce the impacts of this crime type for Canadians. Those are my comments. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
I have a number of senators lining up to ask questions, but I’ll start off with one simple question. Maybe the officials from Justice Canada and the RCMP here provide an answer. Shouldn’t we be putting a little bit of a burden on the scrap metal yards that are receiving this copper wire material? If you’re running a scrap metal yard in Montreal, Toronto or anywhere in the country and someone brings in copper wire, are there many different sources of where these collectors would be picking up this copper wire outside of the telecommunication industry? If there aren’t a lot of sources for it, why aren’t we putting a little bit more of a burden on the scrap yard, saying, “Hey, if you’re constantly receiving copious amounts of copper wire that is obviously coming from a particular industry, shouldn’t you be asking questions?”
Mr. Taylor: Thank you for the question. It is an important one.
We are aware of efforts that have been taken at the provincial level to address exactly that, senator. In Alberta, we’re aware of a piece of provincial legislation that does impose obligations upon scrap metal dealers and recyclers to collect information in terms of where the materials are coming from. I’m not an expert in that legislation by any means, and I don’t even know to what extent it has been replicated in other jurisdictions in Canada. Maybe some of my colleagues have that information.
I will make one other point and then maybe I’ll stop. In some of the reported cases that we’ve seen with respect to where the metal is coming from, we’ve seen examples of catalytic converters and materials coming from vehicles being stolen also used, so that would be another example that I can point you to.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
Mr. Tewfik: Thank you for the question.
I’ll start my answer by saying there are investigative complexities that would exist, despite where the source of material would come from. We’ve seen copper wire here in Alberta get melted down, so even if there is an identifier that might be on a strand, like a serial number which does exist in some copper wire strands, that gets melted down before it gets recycled, taking away our ability to trace it back to a source.
In terms of the variety of sources where copper wire might come from, I’m afraid that is outside of my scope to be able to speak to. However, I can tell you that, typically, from an investigative standpoint, we’re seeing that these are crimes of opportunity. They are usually discovery crimes, meaning they are reported to the police after the fact. Also, due to the lack of some of the security infrastructure that I commented upon earlier, it is hard to piece together all of the parts of the investigation that would be required to get to a successful prosecution.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
[Translation]
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I have two questions. The first is along the same lines as what Senator Housakos asked.
I gather you can’t do much about scrap metal yards, businesses that recycle metal, because they fall under provincial jurisdiction.
I read an article on the subject, and it said that a municipality in the Chicoutimi area passed a bylaw requiring those businesses to document the names of those who sell them suspicious quantities of copper wire.
That is being called for in the sector. You said we have all the legislation we need to respond, but the electricity industry put out a long press release in March calling for stiffer minimum penalties for copper theft. You said there were two exceptions. However, some argue that the sentence for theft under $5,000 is not harsh enough to stop people from stealing copper.
On one hand, are you going to strengthen the legislation? On the other, what can you do to stop metal recyclers from profiting from these thefts?
Matthias Villetorte, Senior Counsel and Team Leader, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada: I can start to answer that, and my colleagues can round out the response.
Thank you for your question. I will add to what Mr. Taylor said. In response to your first question, I would say that provincial and municipal laws regulate the kind of copper business you’re talking about.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: It doesn’t fall under your jurisdiction, but do you do anything to encourage regulations?
Mr. Villetorte: It’s under provincial jurisdiction. As you mentioned, some municipalities have brought in rules. Criminal law is where federal jurisdiction comes in.
My colleague mentioned a few offences. A certain number of steps have to be followed to get to the point of laying charges and sentencing someone, including investigating and assembling the case. Once the necessary evidence has been gathered, charges can be laid.
As mentioned, a number of offences could apply, including to the sector you mentioned, if it’s possible to prove the intent to knowingly purchase and sell stolen goods.
To your last point about sentencing, I would say that it’s a balancing process. As my colleague mentioned, courts have to impose sentences proportionate to the seriousness of the crime while weighing mitigating and aggravating factors. In the course of doing that, the courts could examine other fairly rare cases to determine what constitutes an appropriate sentence in the circumstances.
[English]
Senator Miville-Dechêne: My question was a bit more direct than that. Should we have more severe sanctions right at the start of the process if there is a theft?
Second, you must have some statistics on that. In the courts, how many are judged under $5,000 in theft and others? I suppose it’s a huge majority, but I just want to know if we have the figure.
Mr. Taylor: Thank you for those additional questions.
We do have Statistics Canada data on theft under and theft over. We’re happy to provide that to the committee. The challenge with those statistics is they won’t be precise as to the copper theft because they are offences of general application.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Can you break them down?
Mr. Taylor: Only through a review of case law. We’ve highlighted a couple of examples. The raw data that is provided is not disaggregated to the types of theft.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Maybe you have the data.
Mr. Taylor: We gave a couple of examples of cases that we were able to identify involving copper theft. To your point, most of those thefts are going to be of low value, under $5,000, so the maximum penalties are less than they would be if the theft involved value over $5,000. How the courts take that into account is through aggravating factors.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I’m conscious of that.
Mr. Taylor: To the last point as to whether the penalty should be increased, I think that is ultimately a question for you all to decide. Certainly, we know from jurisprudence that the courts have recognized that when Parliament increases maximum penalties, it is signalling to the courts an expectation that the offences be treated more seriously through sentencing.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Thank you.
Senator Cuzner: I’m sort of getting a picture from some of the testimony. Mr. Kwan, you mentioned that some senior officials in your department had sent a letter and that you are willing to work with others on this issue. Mr. Villetorte, you said that it’s a provincial responsibility, and I understand that to be true. Chief Superintendent Tewfik, you indicated that the corporate sector could be doing much more with security, something as simple as fences around some of those key areas. I’m seeing people are trying to address the situation, but there doesn’t seem to be that coordinated approach.
In February, the government really seized the issue of car theft and brought together everyone — the federal departments, the provincial and territorial governments, and industry. It seemed to be all hands on deck for that. Do we not have that same sense of urgency for this issue? Explain a little bit about how that evolved in the auto sector. Are we having success with that? Is there a path forward with that? Why can we not take something similar and apply it to the copper theft, or do we not see it is as significant an issue?
Ms. Joly: Thank you, senator.
Maybe I can just start off by noting that I think there is a recognition by the Government of Canada that copper wire theft is an issue, and I think that is why Public Safety and ISED undertook a public awareness campaign by working with industry. In our view, that was a first attempt to try to raise awareness of the issue, and that was conducted just this past spring. I’ll leave it at that for now.
Senator Cuzner: That’s a bit of a start, but we’re not seeing any coordination with the provinces. Senator Miville-Dechêne had talked about the choke points, as did the chair. Those responsibilities seem to fall to the scrap dealers and to the provinces. Why isn’t there this attempt to bring all people to the table on this particular issue?
Ms. Joly: Again, I would reiterate that the public awareness campaign was a first attempt to raise awareness. There is a matter of law enforcement. You heard from my colleague in the RCMP who spoke about their attempts to try to work on the ground in applying the laws that are available to them.
Senator Cuzner: Does Justice Canada want to weigh in?
Mr. Taylor: Only to point out that we work collaboratively with the provinces on criminal justice issues regularly. We have an established body that meets twice a year which supports the work of the deputy ministers responsible for justice and ministers responsible for justice.
In terms of the comparison to auto theft, from my perspective, the pressure and the interest in auto theft was significant when compared to the pressure and interest in this space. That isn’t to say that this isn’t an important issue, but I think that pressure from all jurisdictions was a significant reason why you saw the collaborative engagement across industry, law enforcement and government on these issues. As Ms. Joly said, maybe we’re a bit further behind in the process in terms of the copper theft issue, but it is certainly something that we as a department continue to monitor and engage our provincial partners on.
Senator Cuzner: Does Chief Superintendent Tewfik want to weigh in on that?
Mr. Tewfik: Thank you for the opportunity and the question.
We do take the issue of copper wire theft seriously. I mentioned that in Alberta we are working with industry and the provincial government across a number of areas to try to increase reporting and work to increase some of that security infrastructure I talked about. We do site visits to areas that are repeatedly victimized or hit. I’m aware of similar work happening in other provinces by the RCMP. I can’t speak to that here, but I can get some information to you. I can certainly say that we take it seriously and that we are working with industry and provincial governments on that issue.
Senator Quinn: Thanks, folks, for being here this morning.
A lot of what I wanted to ask has been raised, but I want to come at it from a different angle. We’ve heard that the Criminal Code is a tool that helps protect critical infrastructure. We’ve heard about the disruption, the financial losses, the risk to health and safety and those types of things. We’ve also heard about how it’s hard to link to the owner of the stolen product that which is at the scrap yard.
I’m coming down on what everybody has said: Why is it that we don’t make it more rigid for the scrap dealer — the person receiving the goods, stolen or not — and have that seller certify somehow that they’re dealing with product that they’ve come by honestly? People steal stuff to fence it, to sell it. If I’m a scrap yard dealer, for example, and I willingly take whatever walks through my gate and say that I’ll take your copper because I’m going to make some money selling it, shouldn’t there be some onus both the scrap yard dealer and on the person bringing the product in to demonstrate that they are a bona fide dealer in bringing the materials together, whether it be materials they have come by honestly or to demonstrate that it’s not stolen? Isn’t that a solution, and isn’t that something that should be done at the federal level using the Criminal Code to further protect? It seems that there is a solution that is pretty obvious, but we’re skirting around it. I offer that observation and question to the various panel members. Perhaps we’ll start with Justice Canada.
Mr. Taylor: Thank you for the question. That’s an important observation.
I can point to some comparators in federal legislation where we do impose reporting obligations. For example, in the context of money laundering and suspicious financial transactions, there is federal legislation that imposes obligations on banks to report suspicious transactions, and that supports our criminal law regime vis-à-vis money laundering and the proceeds of crime. I pointed to Alberta’s legislation as an example, and my colleague reminded me that British Columbia is another example with similar legislation. There are tools available to all levels of government in this space, and the suggestion you made is an important one and worth examining.
Senator Quinn: So why wouldn’t action be taken? Why wouldn’t Justice Canada, along with other law enforcement agencies and people involved, take the actions required to bring in such a regime? You’re right. The banks do have such a regime, so why not extend that to those dealing with copper or any other materials that are brought forward? Do something.
Mr. Taylor: Yes, 100%. That’s ultimately a question that would be for the Minister of Justice or another federal minister to answer.
I’ll also quickly say that we also have robust criminal offences around trafficking and possession of property for the purposes of trafficking that address some of the situations you talked about, although I do appreciate there are enforcement challenges with that.
Senator Quinn: Chief Superintendent, would that help national and provincial police forces with their quest to deal with this issue?
Mr. Tewfik: Thank you for the question.
It’s difficult for me to comment upon a matter of legislation, which is for policy-makers, but I will say that, as police, we use whatever tools are available. Sometimes municipal bylaws are put in place to regulate what I’m going to call second-hand dealers, which are pawn shops, et cetera. Those give the police the tools to operate. As already mentioned, there is provincial legislation in at least two provinces that give the police some tools, and then there is what already exists in the Criminal Code.
We still have investigative challenges from the policing standpoint in terms of gathering the evidence. That is just based upon the nature of the crimes, how they occur, how they get reported ultimately to the police and then what’s required to prove that offence.
Senator Quinn: Would you say you have the appropriate tools? You have a tool kit. It seems like you’re trying to say that you don’t have all the tools that would enable you to do a better job. Do you have the tools to do the job?
Mr. Tewfik: Respectfully, I think that’s a question for policy-makers.
Senator Quinn: I take that as a “yes.” Thank you.
Are there any other comments from the other witnesses? Great, thank you.
Senator Cardozo: I have a few questions.
First, we’ve been talking about copper theft, and I would like to get a sense of whether there is theft of other materials, other metals or equipment, such as transformers and generators that are out there across the land.
Second, Ms. Joly, you mentioned the first step of public awareness. Could you tell us a little bit more about who the public awareness campaign was aimed at? What was the tenor of it? Now that it’s been done for a few months, how effective was it, and what are the next steps?
Ms. Joly: Thank you, senator. Maybe I’ll turn it over to my colleague from ISED because it was through the work of the Canadian Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee, CSTAC, with ISED that let that public campaign. Public Safety Canada supported it, but ISED might have more details.
Mr. Kwan: As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the first campaign was to the public. It wasn’t targeted to any individual groups; it was just general to the public. We felt it was important for the public to be aware and keeping an eye on this infrastructure because it happens on main roads. It’s not always in very hidden spots; sometimes it’s on main roads. So when people see it, the awareness of the importance of that infrastructure is useful for law enforcement to be informed. The sooner law enforcement is informed, the sooner action can be taken. That’s the notion behind the campaign.
Then we moved to law enforcement. Now we are working with the RCMP and police forces across the country to let them also be aware that, when they’re responding to these crimes, they should take immediate action instead of putting it on the back burner.
The third thing we’re looking at, which is more forward-looking, is working with other sectors that have more experience in this than the telecom sector. An example would be the electricity sector. They probably have a lot more experience than we do in the telecom sector. That’s the engagement we’re starting to make to ensure other sectors are involved.
You mentioned other examples. In Canada, I’m not aware of any other examples. In Europe, the railways are having big problems across many European countries, but we’re not seeing that in Canada. We’re seeing it mostly in the telecom and electricity sector.
Senator Cardozo: The railways? For what?
Mr. Kwan: The cables that are used for connecting communications in the network system of the rail works are being stolen, so the railway systems have been affected and delays are caused, et cetera.
Senator Cardozo: You mentioned the electricity sector. Can you tell me who uses copper? Which sectors use copper? Electricity does too?
Mr. Kwan: I’m not an expert in copper usage, but I can give you a sense of where copper is used.
Senator Cardozo: You’re more of an expert than I am.
Mr. Kwan: Copper is usually used for communication cables. In the telecom sector, it is used for landlines that go to your home. We also have fibre optics these days, so copper is the old way to do it. Electricity transmission uses copper. The third example I have is the transportation sector. The electric vehicles we have today have a lot of communication through copper wires. That’s an area where we see a growing usage, not just within the car but also the charging infrastructure. It uses a lot of cables. You may have read in the news in the last year or so, especially in the U.S., and you might be talking to somebody later on in the second half of the meeting. In the U.S., we have seen people cutting the charging cables that come with the charger, basically. That’s the problem that is happening in the U.S.
Senator Cardozo: The telecommunications sector is getting out of copper for the most part, isn’t it?
Mr. Kwan: Generally, it is true, but we’re not there yet. A lot of the infrastructure we have is still extremely critical, especially 9-1-1 services. You’ve heard a lot of households that depend upon landlines for making 9-1-1 calls. That’s the usage that is still prevalent today.
Senator Cardozo: The wires the telecoms use are more fibre-optic than —
Mr. Kwan: For broadband, yes.
Senator Cardozo: What is broadband made of?
Mr. Kwan: Broadband is high-speed internet access.
Senator Cardozo: But they’re using fibre optics too, which is glass?
Mr. Kwan: Glass, yes.
The other thing I would point out is that, in the telecom infrastructure today, copper wires and the fibre optic wires are usually bundled together. They go through the same conduit. So if people cut the copper wires, there is collateral damage to the fibre optic cables as well. The impact of stealing part of the copper wire extends beyond just the copper wire. It brings down the networks.
Senator Cardozo: There is no value for stealing fibre optic cabling.
Mr. Kwan: There is not much value.
Senator Cardozo: It’s amazing technology. I always thought you couldn’t bend glass, but you can.
Mr. Kwan: Just don’t twist it too much.
Senator Cardozo: Thank you.
Senator Dasko: I have a follow-up question from Senator Cardozo’s question regarding your public awareness campaign. Can you tell me how the campaign was carried out? What was the main message? What were the media used to inform Canadians? I know these campaigns can be very expensive, or not. There is always a demand for public funds to spend on public awareness campaigns. In any case, that’s my question. Tell me about your campaign, the reach of it, the message and the media, please. Thank you.
Mr. Kwan: Thank you, senator, for the question.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the campaign was fairly lightweight. It was using social media platforms and the web. We had published an article on the website, and we essentially distributed the links to that website for people to read about the cases. It has a few cases mentioned in that article. It talks about the impacts of the copper theft, and it talks about the actions that regular people can take by reporting to the local police, RCMP, as well as to Crime Stoppers.
These are the venues we use. It was not a television or radio advertisement. It was through platforms like X, Twitter in the past, Facebook, LinkedIn and things like that. So social media platforms on the internet.
Senator Dasko: Which audiences or target segments did you target the communication to?
Mr. Kwan: The initial target was the general public, and now we’re moving towards more specific groups of people, like associations, like electricity associations, for example. That is one group we are trying to look into. We haven’t done that yet, but that’s an area that we’re looking into. Another area that could be in the future — this is kind of looking forward again — would be the construction industry. That might be one area we could look into, where there may be copper assets lying around and thefts might be going to those areas as well, and sometimes cuts also happen by mistake. We’re looking into different areas right now, but to answer your question, the initial preliminary target was fairly broad-based, the general public, through social media platforms, and we hope to repeat this on an annual basis because there seems to be a bit of a peak in the spring and summer. It is not a constant thing throughout the year.
Senator Dasko: A peak of interest for —
Mr. Kwan: A peak of thefts happening. But we do like the numbers. We don’t have the statistics to prove that March and April —
Senator Dasko: They don’t like the snow.
Mr. Kwan: They don’t like the snow. That’s correct. Yes.
Senator Dasko: The take-up is higher in these months.
Mr. Kwan: The take-up is slightly lower, yes.
Senator Dasko: Thank you.
Senator Cuzner: Mr. Taylor, I think you had mentioned in your comments Bill C-70. Are there aspects of Bill C-70 that would be of help in dealing with this issue?
Mr. Taylor: Thank you for the question.
Bill C-70 was the foreign interference bill, as you know. The amendment that I spoke to related to an adjunct to the existing sabotage offence. A new sabotage offence was enacted through that legislation that is directed at conduct at essential infrastructure, including telecommunications and including utilities, that renders it inoperable or useless. There is an additional requirement that must be established, and that is that the person intended to cause harm to safety. There are three separate enumerated grounds. It’s a very particular set of circumstances that offence is directed at. My sense is that the general instances of wire theft, of copper theft, in Canada may not meet all of those elements, s o we rely on the existing offences that I spoke about earlier — theft, mischief, possession of property and traffic stolen property. That was really directed at a very specific set of circumstances, as I described.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I just want to be sure I understand correctly. There are no suspect foreign powers who are doing the theft or the sabotage now, or we just don’t know?
Mr. Taylor: I don’t know the answer to that question. I’m sure somebody —
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I thought it was more of a crime of people needing money here.
Mr. Taylor: Yes. Certainly the incidents in Canada, as I think our RCMP colleague talked about, are really crimes of opportunity. This is financially driven criminal activity, and that also is an aggravating factor that courts take into account at sentencing, where the crime is profit-motivated.
Senator Cardozo: My question is for Mr. Tewfik in terms of the RCMP. Sir, you talked about the measures that you’re taking in Alberta. What is your sense of what is happening across the country? You seem to be handling this in a fairly active way. I’m not getting a sense that the rest of the country is taking this as seriously.
Mr. Tewfik: I can say from the RCMP standpoint that we are. The RCMP broadly is working with other police services, government and industry partners across a number of areas where this crime type is — because it creates real issues for people, as I said in my opening comments, ranging from public safety issues to continuity of government. It creates a lot of problems. That’s why we take the issue so seriously and are working across a number of fronts.
If you would like, I can prepare, as a follow-up, some additional information on some of the work that we’re doing in other areas of the province.
Senator Cardozo: The steps you’ve outlined are things that you and your colleagues are doing in the province of Alberta. I suppose this is from your role as a provincial police force. Is the national police force, the RCMP, taking these similar sort of active measures across the country?
Mr. Tewfik: Sorry. That was what I was offering to send you as a follow-up. I’m generally aware of that. You’re right. My role and the scope of my role is here in Alberta. I’m very actively engaged here and very aware of the problem. I’ll say it is a significant issue in Alberta, which is why it’s one of the areas of focus for crime reduction, which is one of my areas of responsibility. What I was offering as a follow-up was to outline some of the other initiatives happening in other provinces and collecting that. I am aware generally that that is happening. I just can’t speak to it specifically right now.
Senator Cardozo: Okay. That would be extremely helpful. Thank you so much. If you could send that to our clerk, we will all get a copy of it. Thank you.
The Chair: The first hour and this panel have come to an end. I’d like, on behalf of my colleagues, to thank officials from the various government agencies for being before us, as well as the chief superintendent. Thank you very much for coming and sharing your point of view on copper wire theft and its impact on the telecommunication industry.
Honourable senators, for our second panel, we welcome Jean-François Boulanger, Associate Professor, Research Institute on Mines and the Environment, University of Québec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue; and Ben Stickle, Professor of Criminal Justice Administration, Middle Tennessee State University. Welcome and thank you both for joining us. We will first be hearing opening remarks of five minutes each from Professor Boulanger, followed by Professor Stickle, and then I will turn it over to my colleagues for a period of questions and answers.
[Translation]
Jean-François Boulanger, Associate Professor, Research Institute on Mines and the Environment, University of Québec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, as an individual: I am happy to appear before the committee today, and I appreciate the testimony given by the previous panel. I will say that my expertise is in extractive metallurgy, in other words, the process of going from ores and copper concentrate to refined metal. However, I did some research beforehand, so I’m familiar with the ins and outs of copper production.
Canada is a copper producer. Currently, there is a copper smelter in Rouyn-Noranda, where I am right now. I’m referring to the Horne smelter, which is owned by Glencore, an international consortium. The Horne smelter recycles copper and what are known as old scrap products, which aren’t necessarily high-purity copper alloys.
High-purity copper is needed to make telecom wires. When isolated, the copper is more than 99.9% pure. With high-purity copper, usually the idea is to keep it in that state, not to mix it with other metals or materials. For the copper to retain the most value, the recycling loops are short. The copper is melted down to again make copper wire.
There was a discussion about metal scrap yards and small collectors picking up the metal and possibly accumulating it. Few facilities in Canada manufacture copper wire. The big ones include Nexans, in Montreal, near the copper refinery owned by Glencore.
Basically, the copper extracted from the copper concentrate, so from the ore, especially in Rouyn-Noranda, is sent to the refinery in Montreal, where it is purified. It is then sold to a company like Nexans, which shapes it into wire. Nexans has the capacity to receive the material and works with the company Excel, which takes care of removing the coating covering the wire. Inside the coating is very pure copper that can be melted down to make new copper wire.
As I said, Canada has few facilities, with just one copper smelter and one copper refinery. The U.S. has two or three extractive metallurgy facilities for copper. Keep in mind that some of that material is exported from the U.S. I didn’t find any statistics for Canada, but a big chunk of American copper headed for recycling is found in China.
One-fifth of all recycled copper that goes to China is said to come from the U.S. Presumably, a certain amount also goes from Canada to other countries, China being one. Something that was discussed earlier was how to trace the copper. I’m not aware of any methods to trace it back to its source. Since the copper is very pure, once it’s melted down, obviously, there isn’t much left that could be used to trace or track it.
In my view, it’s not inconceivable that a portion is exported to other countries, which would make it even harder to trace. That said, even small recyclers, if they collect and mix it all... Of course, that makes the trail even harder to follow. If you look at photos and videos online, you’ll see the wire is all mixed up in a big pile on a pallet, so it’s hard to tell what comes from where. They certainly don’t examine what they receive from every single customer at the time.
Nevertheless, copper recycling is going to be a very important part of the coming energy transition. The price of copper is still high. Countries like China want more and more copper concentrate. Everyone is clamouring for it. The price will probably stay on the high end, contributing to the appeal of committing this type of crime.
The Chair: You are over your five minutes, Mr. Boulanger.
Mr. Boulanger: I’m done.
[English]
Ben Stickle, Professor of Criminal Justice Administration, Middle Tennessee State University: Good morning, senators, and thank you for the opportunity to address this committee. I’m Dr. Ben Stickle, Professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Middle Tennessee State University, and a former police officer.
I’m the author of a book, which I gave to your committee this morning, entitled Metal Scrappers and Thieves: Scavenging for Survival and Profit. It’s the first ethnographic study to explore the motivations and methods of metal thieves. By immersing myself in their world, even travelling along with them when they committed crimes, I was able to explore their motivations, their methods and how they conduct themselves.
To begin with, metal thieves defy simple stereotypes. While some are economically disadvantaged or struggling with addiction, many possess legitimate industry experience in fields like construction, recycling or utilities. This expertise allows them to identify vulnerable metals, navigate technical challenges of stealing it and exploit system vulnerabilities.
The price theft hypothesis, which has been supported by extensive research, demonstrates a direct link between the metal price and the rate of theft. When the prices for metals like copper and others increase, thefts increase as well because thieves see the profitability of these stolen goods.
The built environment that we’re talking about today is the heavy influence of metal theft. Thieves target places based on ease of access, a high quantity and quality of metal — copper specifically — and limited guardianship. Once a target is selected, thieves often case the location to understand patterns of activity, potential security measures and accessibility.
The theft methods themselves depend on the location and type of metal, and vary widely. Thieves can use a variety of tools, from very basic equipment to very advanced equipment. Timing can be critical. Some of these thefts occur during the day so that their perpetrator can blend in as a legitimate worker at these sites while others occur at night to avoid detection, and unfortunately repeat victimization is very common.
Recycling centres, as was discussed, is the final stage of theft, where stolen metals are exchanged. Thieves avoid detection and complicate investigations by mixing stolen metals in with legitimate scrap, selling to multiple centres and even travelling across jurisdictions. Trusted sales, where a thief poses as, or is in fact, a legitimate worker with legitimate access to scrap metal is common. While some recycling centres may knowingly accept stolen goods, most thieves use deception and exploit oversight gaps to sell metal without capture.
Based on my research, I will suggest to you several suggestions for prevention and response.
The first is to develop specific criminal codes where, at a minimum, case identifiers for metal theft to enable data collection and support intelligence policing efforts.
The second is to train law enforcement and recycling centre staff to recognize these stolen metals, understand offender methods and identify key motivations to improve detection and prosecution rates.
Third, if not already done, define metal theft in Canada’s Criminal Code to include the direct and indirect damages. You can strengthen penalties for infrastructure damages that have broad impacts we have already discussed.
Fourth, educate communities on the impacts of metal theft and promote vigilance.
Fifth, require regular updates to trade licenses and authorized letters of metal sellers. Numbers six and seven I’ll include in my conclusion.
Metal theft is a complex and costly crime that cannot be addressed through regulation alone. While tightening controls in the recycling industry may be helpful, the adaptability of thieves, many of whom have knowledge of this industry themselves, limits the effectiveness of traditional regulation approaches. Strategies such as blending stolen metals with legitimate scrap, or using third parties to fence stolen goods, allow offenders to circumvent new rules very quickly.
I recommend establishing a national monitoring system, modelled after Canada’s prescription monitoring programs. Such a system would track sales across recycling facilities and create a centralized database accessible to both the industry and the police. Scrap dealers could use the system to identify and report suspicious behaviour they see, such as frequent sales by the same individual or unusually large amounts of high-value metals. At the same time, police could leverage the data to investigate and disrupt the theft networks. This approach would close critical gaps in oversight and strengthen efforts to deter and address metal theft.
However, prevention should remain a priority. Situational crime prevention techniques such as enhancing surveillance, restricting access, tamper-proof locks and other technologies can prevent theft.
Addressing this issue requires taking the theft of critical infrastructure very seriously, as societal costs and disruption caused by metal thieves are far-reaching and significant. By combining proactive measures, more innovative oversight and stronger stakeholder collaboration, we can protect critical infrastructure while at the same time supporting legitimate recycling practices and needs and hold offenders accountable.
I hope these insights provide actionable paths for this committee and contribute to addressing this pressing issue effectively. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, professor.
[Translation]
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Thank you to the two witnesses. This is for Mr. Boulanger.
First, you brought up the Horne smelter that melts and processes copper. Is that the same smelter that is always in the news?
Second, are there copper mines in Quebec? I thought they were mostly in Ontario and Western Canada. What is your assessment of Canada’s copper reserves? Scarcity must be another reason it’s being stolen. You said we import copper from the U.S. Do we have undeveloped copper resources, or are we really dependent on the rest of the world?
It seems to me you would know those things, given your expertise.
Mr. Boulanger: Thank you for your question. I’ll try to answer quickly.
Canada does not have a strategic reserve of copper or anything like that. It relies mainly on imports.
The answer to your first question is yes; I was talking about the Horne smelter. It operates in Rouyn-Noranda using mainly copper concentrates, about 700,000 tonnes of copper concentrate a year. In relation to the hundred or so smelters in the world, I would describe it as a medium-sized smelter.
The smelter receives the materials largely from other countries. Quebec still has one or two mines that produce copper concentrate, but it’s a small quantity when compared with how much the smelters process. There is one in Abitibi and one in northern Quebec. Western Canada also has a few mines. We are not a big player on the world stage. In terms of big players, we’re talking Chile, South America... China has a handful of mines, and Africa has a few.
Canada does, however, have reserves and a number of copper mining projects in development. Canada has the ability to play a leading role, but the way the market is right now, the material comes primarily from other countries by boat, gets unloaded in Montreal and is transported up to Rouyn-Noranda by train. Mainly, the plant produces 99.5% pure copper anodes, which are then transported back to Montreal for purification.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Mr. Boulanger, you are very familiar with copper, so are there ways to reduce copper theft and trafficking from a scientific standpoint? I believe you were listening to the previous panel when various solutions were being discussed. What do you think?
Mr. Boulanger: I think replacement is definitely something to consider.
I’ve done a few interviews when I’ve been asked whether fibre optic cables contained a lot of copper. No, copper theft is less of an issue with fibre optic cable. Any way to build in protection is also a good thing. When it comes to tracing the material and involving recyclers, it’s complicated. It would be nice, but if you look in the phone book, you’ll find dozens of recyclers in Canada. Tracing small quantities would be an exhaustive undertaking. Less than $5,000 worth of copper fits into a box or the back of a pickup. It would mean following a lot of small transactions, not to mention that the copper could have left the country. As the other witness pointed out earlier, thieves travel across jurisdictions. There is no guarantee of finding the copper.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I’ve done some reading, and some people say it is possible to put tracers on the copper wire in electric vehicle charging stations. Can tracers be used for all copper wire, or is that impossible? It seems to me that would be quite expensive.
Mr. Boulanger: Yes, that’s true. I think it would be a huge logistical challenge, but anything is possible. Take, for instance, isotopic tracers, which have small quantities of radioactive elements. Obviously, the wire itself can be encased in plastic, but once melted, it is gone and leaves no trace. It is possible, but it’s quite an undertaking. For charging stations, it would be thousands or millions of dollars. A small sample trial could be done, but I think there are better solutions to try first.
[English]
Senator Quinn: Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
My question is for Mr. Stickle. Thank you for your presentation. This is probably more of a clarification than a question, but you mentioned that there are some jurisdictions in the United States that have certificates or certified sources of sellers.
Mr. Stickle: I was suggesting that there could be. What I was trying to explain — and may not have done a clear job — is that many people who are recycling and stealing have worked or are working for legitimate sources of scrap metal. They will get a letter from their employer saying that this person can recycle the leftovers from a job site, and then a year later they still use that letter as validation that their metal is legal, but it isn’t at that point. It has been stolen. They may be doing both. They may be working for a legitimate company who is dealing with metal and then also stealing metal on the side. The recommendation was that these be renewed more often to ensure that they don’t have an old letter and that they are actively working for someone.
Senator Quinn: In Canada, according to previous witnesses, it seems that the emphasis is on the prosecuting or the punishing of the thief. Is that enforceable in the regimes in the United States? Is it on the person stealing the metal and not necessarily on the receiver?
Mr. Stickle: It is very difficult to actually enforce this and to prosecute a case, as you heard earlier, because you can’t track metal very well. As we just learned, you can alter it, destroy it or melt it down, and you lose any ability to track it. One 100-yard foot of cable is the same as another. Actually proving that this is stolen and proving that the person knew it is very challenging to investigate. Even when the penalties for this are severe, it is very challenging to actually bring the case all the way through.
Senator Quinn: With the previous witnesses, I was suggesting that there may need to be a receiver of metals, whether it’s melted or not, and the person bringing it in needs to have a certification saying they are a dealer of scrap metal to verify, and this is the source they got it from to bring it to the scrap yard. Would such a regime help?
Mr. Stickle: There are a lot of things that could help. That certainly is one of them. I did come across a number of people who, as I said, legitimately had an employment business and then stole extra metal on the side. I have also met people who were fencing metal — a little play on words there — and they would buy metal from someone else. They even had portable scales. They would show up to a thief, weigh the metal at their house, pay them about half of what it’s worth, and then take it with their other supply of metal that they gained legally to a scrap yard. This is a very complex situation, but it could help.
Senator Cuzner: It’s a pretty sophisticated operation. I would think that, in some cases, some demolition companies may be given a reward for jumping in bed with the guys that are fencing it as well. They would have those relationships.
I read on your website — you have sort of alluded to it, and I think we’ll look forward to your book — that despite the widespread impact, there is still a gap in understanding the motivation of those that are stealing and best practices as far as catching them. Are you seeing anywhere that they are really having an impact? In some jurisdictions, are they able to shut down these enterprises?
Mr. Stickle: That is a very difficult question to answer because there isn’t good data. Part of the reason I went into the field and actually interviewed people is because there is no good standing database. A lot of what we know in the United States actually comes from insurance claims. There is an insurance repository that keeps some of this data, but if you don’t file an insurance claim and don’t explain it was a theft, it isn’t even listed there. Finding locations that are addressing this through understanding when this crime has occurred — as I believe was explained earlier, it kind of gets lost in other thefts, which is why I suggested having some type of identifier such as a separate statute or code that says this is in fact metal theft. Then you can actually implement prevention, investigative techniques and tests to see if those are working. I can’t really answer your question at the moment because there are not a lot of jurisdictions or really any that I’m aware of that do a good job of tracking this and then applying techniques to actually solve it. That is unsatisfactory.
Senator Cuzner: Do you have any suggestions about how we go about tracking it? I know Professor Boulanger has said just how difficult it is and how the big challenge is that once the state is altered and once it is melted, it becomes extremely difficult to track. Do you have any suggestions on how that might happen?
Mr. Stickle: As was mentioned earlier, I do think a collaboration with players in industry, law enforcement and recycling would be very helpful in this. Find out what the industry is doing. Do they know how often they are the targets of these thefts? What are they doing to prevent it? How can they work with local and state and national law enforcement? Look at the scrap yards as well. What can they do to be pro-active players in this? Many of the yards that I worked with didn’t want to purchase stolen goods. They were trying to keep them out, but again, when you have a large truck with tons and tons of metal and half of it is stolen and half of it is not, but it comes from a plumber or electrician that you trust, how can you know? It’s very challenging. Everyone needs to come together to discuss an overall plan to try to address it.
Senator Dasko: Thank you to our witnesses.
The problem seems to be really difficult to deal with. I think many of us would like to see how we can solve this and what are the tools, and are they in our criminal justice system? I’m not sure about that.
I’m interested in pursuing any preventive approaches from both witnesses, Professor Boulanger and Professor Stickle. Are there any preventive approaches? I know about security cameras, but is that just too basic to even be considered given the sophistication of the perpetrators? Still, I’ll throw my question out there.
Mr. Stickle: I would be interested in looking at data from the industry. Again, if they know where this is a target and when and how it is occurring, that would offer the most specifics for things that could be done.
Generally speaking, as was mentioned earlier, there is Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design — I believe the acronym “CPTED” was used — looking at the environment where these things are occurring and what we can do. In some cases, fences are helpful. In some cases, lights are helpful, but in some cases, it’s actually the opposite. You’re providing a light for the thief to work at night. So being very specific to where these things are occurring and the techniques that you can use to prevent them is very important. One instance I know of in the United States is thieves will target battery banks for telecommunications to operate, and they’ll take the batteries and take the lead and things out of the batteries. Even just that simple box, if you will, could have some additional locks and mechanisms to try and secure that. You could have sites and locations that have large amounts of copper or other precious metals or semi-precious metals be secured better with cameras, lights and things of this nature.
Again, oftentimes, because, at least in my experience, many of these thieves were familiar with the industry, you have to think a little more critically about what might work for the average person who just wants to take a piece of metal and someone who actually has training in the industry and then goes back and facilitates these crimes.
Senator Dasko: Mr. Boulanger, do you have any thoughts on preventive approaches?
Mr. Boulanger: I would tend to agree with my colleague here.
I also think about an order of prioritization. We are here in a communications committee, so, obviously, those high concentrations and high amounts of copper being in one particular place which also is at risk for communications breakdowns should be the first targets, and perhaps having an order of priority of which ones should be secured, and guidelines, so whether these are to be camera-protected somehow or otherwise. They should be primary targets. We’re probably not going to prevent all of them, but I’m sure there is some criticality assessment that could be made on the most critical ones, like we heard the first few testimonies tell us about. This is the extent to which I’m able to talk about preventive measures. Certainly, a gradation would be in order.
Senator Dasko: These assets obviously have a huge interest in taking action. I mean, it’s just obvious, right? They own them, and they’re important. If they’re gone, they cause such damage and such disruption. Of course, they would be motivated. Wouldn’t that be the first line of defence?
Mr. Stickle: It’s difficult to talk to motive of the companies. It is also difficult to know the scale of intentional harm as opposed to other factors that go into this. Without knowing, again, from some of these utility companies how often the theft is happening and what the impact is compared to other factors, whether it’s old equipment and things like this — these are all questions, obviously, the industry has to face. Do we put money into prevention of a crime? Do we put money into replacing old equipment? Those can be difficult challenges to address, again, without knowing and understanding a larger scope, which is why — if I may just briefly, it would be important to have not only telecommunications address this, but also the electrical industry and others, because one may not realize the other is a victim. So, all together, everyone goes, “This is a bigger problem than we thought; therefore, maybe it’s more important for us to address it.” But, individually, they may not know the scale and the scope to urge us into action.
Senator Dasko: Thank you.
The Chair: I asked the question earlier with the other panel. When it’s all said and done, there are only three places I assume you can get copper wire: from the manufacturer, from utility companies and from telecommunications companies; correct? Or am I missing something? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be putting a higher burden on scrap metal yards that are receiving these stolen goods and making sure they validate and verify where it’s coming from and how it gets to the yard before they actually melt it down?
Mr. Stickle: I think the answer to that question depends on the type of metal that we’re talking about. You have mentioned copper wires, for example. If we’re talking about an electrical cable that is three or four inches in diameter, then absolutely a scrap yard should be suspicious of where that comes from. That’s not a common, obvious type of metal to have around. However, if we’re looking at the other end of the spectrum, which is where you go more toward opportunistic as in I’m looking for money, I see a substation or I go into a house and yank some wires, common household wires, common wires that are in businesses, then those are much more prevalent in the built environment. So, yes, there are some types of metal that should raise an alarm that this is an unusual thing for someone to bring in, but there are a lot of other metals at the other end that are very common, and we do want people to recycle them, for obvious reasons. We need it for our copper supplies, as was testified a moment ago. Again, you have to look at two different aspects of this. There is unusual metal that should be flagged and questioned, but there is a lot of other metal that comes just commonly through a recycling centre or through standard construction things.
The Chair: Is there any legislation of the nature where the onus is put on the scrap metal yard in place in the United States?
Mr. Stickle: Yes. There are a variety of states that have individually legislated different methods for this. Again, I can’t tell you if they’re helpful or not yet. I would love to be able to do that. We’ve seen a variety of things, from requirement of identification of the seller, photographs of the things that are being stolen, all the way up to and including a hold on the metal for sometimes a week or three to four weeks to see if the police come looking for it.
Now, I will just mention, although you didn’t ask, that I find this relatively challenging, because copper and other metals are a commodity, and the price changes very rapidly. A dealer could come into a situation where what they paid on Monday is not the same as what they’re going to get when they sell it two weeks later, which then doesn’t encourage them to participate in the law. It actually encourages them to skirt it. So I have questions about holding for so many days.
It is possible that you could have required licensing and photography, which is what I mentioned when I discussed the Canadian prescription drug monitoring program, whereby a scrap yard could take photographs of the items and identify it and say, “Hey, this is a suspicious item that I’m purchasing,” and then when I, as a thief, go two kilometres away to another yard and I walk in, they would also, on their computer, go, “This person just sold metal over here. Why is this going on?” I think that level of communication that is done sometimes with prescriptions to look for people who are buying small amounts at different companies could be helpful in this situation. Actually, in that case, it gives the scrap yards the tools to say, “This is a suspicious sale. We’re going to not buy it, or we’re going to flag this person or this product.” It allows everyone, again, to communicate together to know what’s going on in the industry.
Mr. Boulanger: I would tend to agree with Mr. Stickle there. It is quite complex, and I don’t see an easy way out. Communications, sure, but lots of small transactions become very hard to flag and se. But as always, communication is a good idea.
The Chair: Mr. Stickle, my question to you is, when a crew goes out there to do this kind of work, how many people are required? How many hours are required? Typically, what’s the payoff at the end of the day? What are they loading, and what is the end profit on this, out of curiosity? I’m just trying to figure out the risk-reward here.
Mr. Stickle: Again, this really varies a lot, from someone who we might say is opportunistic, as in they are looking for some quick money, something maybe to go pay for dinner that night, some beer or something like that, as opposed to groups who I talked with who are very organized and stealing millions of dollars’ worth of electrical cable at a time. Those two things are very different. As I address those, I’ll just mention that although one was millions of dollars’ worth of electrical equipment on a yearly basis, the impact was not as great as sometimes those who go out and steal from a small, single substation and disrupt communication for a week or two. It’s very challenging to understand the motivation and to legislate control over this.
To try and answer your question, many of those who are more organized, who are going out purposely looking for these metals, who are stealing large volumes and quantities, could become quite wealthy off of this, potentially, if they found a way — and this was the key — to get it back into the recycling stream. Many of those individuals had large crews. They would go out sometimes for two or three days. One individual I spoke with looked online for videos of abandoned buildings. Having done that, he would evaluate the copper inside, and then go out and steal for two or three days, making $60,000 to $80,000.
Again, others were much smaller. Perhaps it’s a pair who go and break into an abandoned building or attack an electrical substation. If we’re talking electrical substations, the risk is obviously extremely high. You’re walking into an energized facility and trying to take copper. Again, that goes back to the idea that these aren’t necessarily people who don’t know what they’re doing; they have some experience in this field. They’re very organized in that way.
I’m afraid I didn’t really quantify your answer. It’s very hard to do. In some places, there are tremendous risks, but for other places, there is not as much. Some people are very organized and spend days or weeks at a site, taking everything out of it. Some are there to go in and out in a matter of minutes, taking some level of copper away. Specifically, I’d be happy to dry and address that better, but it’s challenging.
Senator Cuzner: I myself worry and think along the same lines as our chair, but the risk and reward really come into it here. If you’ve got some background in electrical, construction or anything like that, you could probably be out working in a trade and making a pretty good living. In order to put that all on the line to steal metal or copper, it’s significant.
What would the spectrum of penalties be — fines, incarceration — from state to state, whether you’re actually stealing, fencing or whatever? Could you give us some kind of indication as to how you approach that in the States?
Mr. Stickle: Again, I feel like I’m disappointing everyone with general answers here.
In many cases, what began to be an issue when this type of crime became more popular, which was when the price of copper increased significantly around 2008 and onward, it was initially just a simple theft. We had a dollar amount by each state, as you’ve heard already in testimony, so if it was under a certain amount, we would consider it a misdemeanour, and if it was over, it would be considered a felony.
Many states have begun to really not change that so much — although a few have — but to go to the actual damage and harm that comes from stealing some of these types of metal. For example, if you go back to a communications cabinet, taking the batteries out of it and some of the wire, that might only be a value of $1,000, but the damage or the cost to replace that entire cabinet, rerun the wires and the impact to the community are much higher. So we’ve seen some jurisdictions include not only the value of the items stolen but try to valuate the damage done to society or to replace that item, including those as ways to have additional enhancements or penalties for these types of thefts.
Is what I said clear?
Senator Cuzner: Yes.
Senator Clement: I apologize for coming in late. I had some other duties. Thank you for travelling, participating and giving testimony.
How engaged is the public with this? What do they know? How do you communicate with the public? Obviously, the impact is price for the public, ultimately, but how much are they aware of all of this, and how much does that matter to you?
Mr. Stickle: I don’t believe the public generally is very aware of this. As I began to talk about this after doing this research, lots of people would come and say they had an experience or someone they knew had an air conditioner or heater stolen, so the public is loosely aware of it, but probably not to any great depth.
To add to that, even more important, law enforcement is not always aware of this either. Some of the thieves I spoke with would get stopped for a traffic offence and have half a tonne of copper wire in the back of their truck. The officer didn’t understand what was going on, or they were suspicious and they would hand him a number. The officer would call a prearranged friend to say the truck driver is an electrician and he’s allowed to have that.
So some more awareness for law enforcement and even the public would probably be helpful. These are places where people shouldn’t be. Then, if you see people in those places, what do you do? That might be helpful. Overall, I think the public is aware of the concept, but they are probably not aware of what they should do if they suspect this is occurring.
[Translation]
Mr. Boulanger: I agree with that comment. Overall, I don’t think the public is very aware of what’s going on.
People might hear that copper is valuable, that it’s being resold, that recyclers are buying it, but it’s not easy to understand the issues and potential consequences. I don’t think the people committing this type of crime fully understand the impact it can have, or at the very least, they minimize it.
Awareness campaigns could be helpful. It mustn’t be a useless exercise. Would it prevent people from stealing copper? I don’t know.
It comes back to a point that was made earlier. It’s remarkable that people are willing to take the risk for $500 or $1,000. Even though the reward may not seem that high, is it high enough given that the risk of being caught is almost zero? I imagine that’s how potential thieves look at it.
It’s true that when thieves steal millions of dollars’ worth of copper, it may be copper that is not in use yet — taken from abandoned houses or construction sites, say. That’s not where the problem lies for the telecom sector. It tends to be when the wire is installed, but generally, it’s less concentrated.
Still, people do it. They must see the risk as so minimal that they decide to do it anyways. That’s where general knowledge and information campaigns can be helpful. It won’t fix everything, but it can make a difference.
Senator Clement: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Colleagues, there are no more questions, so on behalf of the committee, I will thank both of our guests for coming before the committee and sharing their important views on this issue as we continue our study on copper wire theft in the telecommunications industry. It’s become a bigger problem than I even imagined. We’re talking about millions of dollars, impacting all kinds of areas of our society.
(The committee adjourned.)