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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS

EVIDENCE

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OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 21, 2023

The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met with videoconference this day at 9 a.m. [ET] to conduct a study on the impacts of climate change on critical infrastructure in the transportation and communications sectors and the consequential impacts on their interdependencies.

Senator Julie Miville-Dechêne (Deputy Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Deputy Chair: Good morning, honourable senators. I am Julie Miville-Dechêne, a senator from Quebec and Deputy Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. I would like to begin by inviting my colleagues to introduce themselves, starting on my left.

[English]

Senator Simons: Senator Paula Simons, Alberta, Treaty 6 territory.

Senator Richards: Senator Richards, New Brunswick.

Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn, New Brunswick.

Senator Cardozo: Andrew Cardozo from Ontario.

Senator Dasko: Donna Dasko, senator from Ontario.

The Deputy Chair: Today, we continue our study of the impact of climate change on critical infrastructure in the transportation sector, and begin our study of the issues facing Northern Canada.

For our first panel, we are very pleased to welcome, directly from the North, Frank Pope, Mayor of the Town of Norman Wells in the Northwest Territories. Welcome, Mr. Pope, and thank you for joining us. We will begin with your opening remarks of five minutes, followed by questions from senators.

Mr. Pope, the floor is yours when you are ready.

Frank Pope, Mayor, Town of Norman Wells: Good morning, senators, and thank you for allowing me this opportunity to let you know exactly what our problems are within the North at this time. My name is Frank Pope, and I am the Mayor of the Town of Norman Wells in the Northwest Territories. I first came to the North in 1962, and I have lived in Norman Wells since 1984. I am here today to inform you of the impacts that climate change is having on transportation for our communities in the Sahtu Region.

Climate change caused the water levels in the Mackenzie River — our river highway — to drop to non-navigable levels by mid-season this past summer. Our main source of water flows from British Columbia through the Athabasca River and Peace River systems. Due to drought conditions in British Columbia and the possible construction of dams on some of these rivers, water levels dropped, and our barge traffic — the barge traffic that resupplies us in the summer — was stalled. Tonnes of freight, including groceries and heating fuel, were left undelivered to our region. Due to these low water levels, much of our critical merchandise had to be flown in at a high cost to the consumer. In addition, wildfires in the southern part of our territory caused the evacuation of those employees who load the barges at the head of our terminal, even while we were still able to navigate the river in parts of the system.

The Northwest Territories did take measures to help get the backlog of stranded freight to the communities throughout the North who normally rely on barge delivery. Eventually, the barge traffic and the Canadian Coast Guard were unable to continue to navigate the rivers safely. In fact, the Canadian Coast Guard left all the river marker buoys in. They were unable to retrieve them this summer — that is unheard of.

We have always been known as a fly-in community, but previously, we have had reliable summer river barge systems and adequate winter road systems. These avenues are no longer reliable. Our cost of living has skyrocketed — a 300% to 500% increase in cost on some of the commodities, including groceries.

The only logical solution is to finally build the long-promised Mackenzie Valley road system; it’s an all-season road for now — and not a highway, as called for by former Prime Minister Diefenbaker in the mid-1960s, to open up the North. His vision was a road to resources. We have these resources, but still no transportation system. We need an all-season road constructed in the shortest time frame possible — without which we will all soon become permanent fly-in communities for not only personnel, but also for our food supplies, heating fuels and all of the commodities that we need, like building and construction material. We just can’t afford it.

These plans, as suggested by Mr. Diefenbaker, have been in the works since the early 1970s when a centre line for the road was cut from Fort Simpson to Inuvik. There have been multiple studies done, and the estimated price tag in 2012 was $750 million. That has gone up quite a bit by now. We are still waiting, but the question is “Why?” Why did it take climate change for this to become such a serious necessity? Climate change in the North is much more evident than it is in the Southern provinces. We saw it coming before anyone else did. Climate change is with us. To non-believers, come pay us a visit. We will prove it to you.

Senators, we need you to help us help ourselves. We are up to the challenge and ready to meet it head-on.

That is my statement, and I thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much for the statement; it was extremely clear.

Can you tell us what the population of Norman Wells is so that we get an idea of how many people there are? You’re in the North, and I know it is not highly populated. Please tell us a little bit about that.

Mr. Pope: Norman Wells has about 750 people. We are the hub for the Sahtu Region. Our partner communities are Colville Lake and Délı̨nę to the east of us; Fort Good Hope to the north of us on the Mackenzie River; and Tulita to the south of us on the Mackenzie River. We are the place where a lot of people from these communities come to find employment. We are a fairly vibrant community — a busy community — but we are in a state right now where the cost of living means that our government, our contractors and our businesses are having trouble recruiting employees. With the way the cost of living is right now, nobody can come up north and live. It is atrocious. I know that a lot of people, including myself, try to support the local economy — the local storekeepers. That is becoming more difficult now as people are starting to fly in via Amazon or whatever else there is out there. This is putting a lot of our businesses and companies in jeopardy.

What I am suggesting here, ladies and gentlemen, is that we, at least, have an all-season road — we don’t need a highway at this stage. We need an all-season road that can allow us to bring in commodities affordably, and that would happen.

Like I said, we are a community of 750 people and a region of over 3,300 people, I believe, and we are — as a community and as a region — willing to work hard to achieve our goals. We are willing to work with the Northwest Territories government and the federal government to put a plan together as to how best, by working together, we can make this happen.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. We will open this up to my colleagues, who will have other questions, as I am sure.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much, Mayor Pope. I have a whole bunch of questions, so if I don’t get them all in now, I will ask to go back on the second round.

I want to start by talking about the water levels in the Mackenzie River, and I want to get a sense of what you’re hearing from people. Was last year an outlier, or is this part of a continuing trend that you think is going to be problematic — I was going to say “down the road,” but I should say — down the river?

Mr. Pope: I would suggest that over many years, the water levels have been decreasing. When I lived in northern Alberta in Fort Chipewyan, I remember when the W.A.C. Bennett Dam came in and water levels decreased, and the trappers and hunters could no longer trap muskrats, which is one of their stable ways to earn a living. Up in the Mackenzie Delta in Inuvik and around that area, water levels were dropping there many years ago as well and creating issues.

I think what has happened is that gradually the water levels have been decreasing. We have an area north of Norman Wells — between Norman Wells and Fort Good Hope — where there are two sets of rapids. One is navigable most of the time, and the other one, just last year, was non-navigable by mid-June. Normally, you could navigate those rapids until, maybe, early September.

This is not a sudden issue today. This has been coming for many years, but, this past year, it became the worst ever.

Senator Simons: In terms of an all-weather road, right now you are relying on ice roads in the winter when it is cold enough to form them. With an all-weather road, how much of it would be traversing permafrost? With respect, when Prime Minister Diefenbaker was around, we weren’t worried about permafrost melt; now we really are. How much more complicated might it be to build an all-weather road now if we are worried about permafrost melting and heaving?

Mr. Pope: There is currently an all-weather road from Fort Simpson to Wrigley. We are looking at a winter road currently from Wrigley to Norman Wells, with spur roads to Colville Lake and to Délı̨nę to Great Bear Lake. I’m not sure exactly how we get around that, but what we are doing right now is putting snow on the road, packing it down on the permafrost and calling it a winter road.

When we did have oil companies working in the area, they paid the Government of the Northwest Territories, or GNWT, additional dollars to put water on top of the frozen snow to make it ice, hard and stable. We also have two crossings of the Mackenzie River for the winter road system — one is south of Wrigley, and one is at Tulita. The problem there is that Great Bear River runs out by Tulita right into the Mackenzie River, and the ice is very difficult in normal cold conditions. In warm conditions, we wouldn’t be able to build that ice road.

The majority of the road is on muskeg; you are correct. And two of the crossings are on the Mackenzie River, which are ice roads. Most of the route for the winter road is the former CN telephone line that ran from south all the way up to the Mackenzie Delta, and that is the route that they are using right now for a winter road. That was a road developed by CN for telephones.

Senator Simons: If you had an all-weather road, would you want it to go along that same right-of-way, or would it need to go someplace different, because roads on muskeg are tough?

Mr. Pope: I believe there is a small section from Norman Wells south that has been built already — an all-weather road of about 13 kilometres — and that was built higher up from the winter road and on more stable rock conditions. That has stabilized very well in the three years that it has been in operation.

An additional six kilometres is being built as we speak on the muskeg part of it again. I’m not sure what the long-term plan is for this all-season road.

Senator Dasko: Thank you, Mayor Pope. My question is also about the all-season road, and you mentioned that you have been deliberating and talking about this road for some time. I would like to ask you what the prospects are of getting such a road, and securing the funding. Who is going to build it, and where is the money going to come from? What are the prospects of getting this road?

If it’s not clear what the prospects are, then what are the alternatives for your community if this all-weather road just does not come about?

Mr. Pope: Back when I said that the centre line was cut in the 1970s, that was under federal jurisdiction.

Senator Dasko: I see.

Mr. Pope: Now, all that type of work would flow through the GNWT who would have to make applications to the federal government for the required funds.

Where does the money come from? That’s a good question. I would like to reiterate that the federal government owns the surface and subsurface rights for the Norman Wells oil field, and the federal government, in a partnership with Imperial Oil — who are now known as ExxonMobil — signed an agreement in 1944 where the federal government would own the surface and subsurface, and Imperial Oil would operate the field on their behalf.

I do not have accurate figures, ma’am, but, in my estimation, between $4 billion and $5 billion has been generated in revenue from that field. I would say that out of that, about $2 billion would have gone to the federal government through profit from the field and from royalties paid by Imperial Oil back to the federal government.

I would suggest that the Norman Wells oil field has contributed greatly to Canada, and maybe a little bit of consideration could be taken to look at what you have made out of Norman Wells and how little you put back into it — and maybe it is time for payback. Help us get this road built.

Senator Dasko: Do you have any indications that support is going to be forthcoming?

Mr. Pope: Yes, while some construction is taking place, there is still an environmental assessment taking place at the same time.

Senator Dasko: Of course.

Mr. Pope: That is a necessary item; we have no problem with that.

But recently, the Northwest Territories government gave the review board their, sort of, answers to all the questions that the review board gave them, and came up with an estimated completion date of an all-season road by 2037. That was almost like a slap in the face to the people where we live.

In 2037, we won’t have any river system by then. We may not have any need for a winter road system by then. What in heck are we going to do? I mean, this is getting to be a lot more important than a lot of people are making it out to be. If we don’t have water in the river, and we don’t have cold weather to make our winter roads usable, what are we left with? Maybe it’s building new airstrips and using Hercules aircraft to haul our freight in? I mean, we are in a bit of a mess right now, madam.

Senator Dasko: So that’s the alternative, then — flying in. That is the only other mode of communication.

Mr. Pope: As an example, Fort Good Hope is receiving a generating plant for the power system. It was not able to get on the barge, so they are going to be using Hercules aircraft to get that unit into Fort Good Hope this month, I believe. That’s what we’re getting down to. But there is only so much you can haul on an aircraft. You can’t haul diesel fuel — for heating — or propane or chemicals. We’re trying to get our heads around a lot of stuff right now. We’re not there yet, but my colleagues and our communities are willing to work with both levels of government to make something work. As I said, we’re not looking for a highway like Highway 2 in Alberta or Highway 401 in Ontario. We’re just looking for a road that we can travel on and haul material on. We don’t need a highway. We need a road.

The Deputy Chair: We put up a map to help us understand a bit more. We see your city, Norman Wells. Where would this road start? I want to have an idea of the length of this road that you’re proposing.

Mr. Pope: The road is already built from Fort Simpson to Wrigley. The winter road starts at Wrigley and goes to Norman Wells — as I said earlier — and branches off to Colville Lake and to Délı̨nę on Great Bear Lake.

The Deputy Chair: So it would be from Wrigley to Norman Wells.

Mr. Pope: Yes, that is what we’re looking for right now.

The Deputy Chair: How many kilometres is that?

Mr. Pope: I think it’s about 330 kilometres. My colleagues might correct me, but it’s about that distance.

The Deputy Chair: It’s important for us to understand. That’s why we have the map — so that we can see distances.

Senator Patterson — whom I would like to thank for helping us build our witness list; this is very appreciated — it is your turn to ask questions.

Senator D. Patterson: My friend Frank, I know that you have journeyed a long way here. Thank you for being here with us. I think it’s a two-day trip from Norman Wells.

You talked about the benefits that the Norman Wells project has given to Canada — I think you said $4 billion in profit with a big chunk having gone to Canada in taxes and royalties. Norman Wells has contributed to Canada in the past.

Can you give us an idea of what Canada could expect to gain from this investment in the 300-kilometre road to the Wells? What are the economic opportunities that could be unlocked from that all-weather road?

Mr. Pope: Thank you. We have minerals galore in the Sahtu Region — some discovered, and some still to be discovered. We have lead, zinc, copper, tungsten and rare earth minerals. Even emeralds have been found in the Mackenzie Mountains. Diamonds have been found around Colville Lake and Délı̨nę — there are not many in quantity at this time, but there is a terrific amount of wealth within the region. Also, I don’t think oil and gas are finished yet. I think that we have five companies with significant discovery licences for shale gas and shale oil. If there were ever a need for these commodities again, we’ve got it.

The other thing to look at is the cost of doing business. An oil company that wants to drill a well for whatever has to ship its rig up in the middle of summer on the barge and stack it. The company doesn’t put it to work until January. Therefore, between, say, mid-August and January, it pays $50,000 a day to keep that rig sitting idle. Then, it goes to work in December or January, or whenever it gets cold enough for a few months. If they were able to bring that rig up in December on an all-season road, it would be affordable for it to work. That includes drilling rigs — small drilling rigs — to look for rare earth minerals, precious minerals and stuff like lead, zinc or copper.

I would suggest that if we build it, they will come. We have the resources. We have the non-renewable resources that people still need, and I think if we were able to get that road in, the Canadian economy would benefit. [Technical difficulties] the Northwest Territories comes out of Alberta pretty well. They benefit very greatly from what we do up there, and we would certainly hope for support from Alberta as we move forward.

Senator Quinn: Thank you, Mayor Pope, for being here. I know the long journey that you made. I have made that journey.

Mr. Pope: If we had the road, we could have done it quicker.

Senator Quinn: I would like to come back to the question of climate change. You mentioned the navigation and the lower water levels. When I was involved in that business back in the mid-1990s, lower water levels were an issue from time to time even back then. It caused an increased cost, as you have outlined. If the water were there, that navigation season could be more viable. It is getting longer because of climate change. If you ignore the low water just for a moment, would that be a fair assessment? The climate is changing. Would that, in fact, lengthen the season?

The reverse is that it also has effects on snow melt and on what snow can accumulate, et cetera.

Climate change is a major issue for this area and for the entire North — and in Canada generally. What kind of weather events are happening now? Are there different, stronger and more intense weather events that even affect, for example, air transit?

Mr. Pope: The weather has been fairly stable. Going back to the river itself, though, breakup on the Mackenzie River — where we are — normally occurs around May 15, give or take a week. Normally, we get a big burst of water that pushes the ice and piles it up all over the place. This year, it melted. It didn’t get pushed very hard. There was not enough flow even at the breakup this year to push it very hard.

The other issue to keep in mind is that the majority of our freight comes here by river by barge. If the ice on Great Slave Lake moves over, they can’t get out until the ice is melted on that lake. There are many mitigating factors that create the problem that we are talking about.

Weather-wise, it has been fairly stable, but the runoff has been becoming noticeably less and less every year. We used to get a terrific surge in May, and then more water to push the ice. It did not do that the last couple of years.

Senator Quinn: Transportation systems add to the security of our country. It allows people, goods and services to be moved. In the current situation, unless there is action taken, that will affect the security of your area — will it not?

Mr. Pope: It will.

Senator Quinn: I think it was Senator Dasko who spoke on the theme of how the long-term sustainability of your region could be in question without critical infrastructure being addressed.

Mr. Pope: Here is another quick thought: Because of the failure of the barge system late in the season, we are estimating as many as 400-plus heavy truckloads on that winter road this year. That winter road is not capable of sustaining that kind of load. There are at least 100 truckloads of heating fuel to come up; there is propane to come up; and there are housing and building materials to come up. If we have inexperienced drivers who have never driven on winter roads before, and we have some very steep hills to climb, an inexperienced driver jackknifing on a hill could block the road for days at a time.

As I said, there are a lot of mitigating factors that are working against us right now.

Senator Quinn: There is the long-term sustainability question. What’s the population demographic looking like? Are young people coming in and staying, or are they leaving because of the conditions you have described?

Mr. Pope: Young people are staying. We do have a lot more people going for further education than we had in the past. We are starting to graduate a lot more students in our school system, which is good to see. A lot of them are taking university or college courses. Many of them come back.

Senator Quinn: Okay.

Mr. Pope: I will give another example, though, of finding people to work. I just got a bulletin on my phone last night: The health centre is shut down for normal business right now because of a shortage of staff. Only emergencies can be seen. That’s just one example.

The health centre hires contract nurses who come in to work for four to six weeks, and then they are gone again. We have no stability. People do not want to live there for a longer period of time when they can do better with fly-in/fly-out. That’s what we’re turning into. We don’t want that; we want to continue to maintain all five of our communities. It’s becoming more and more difficult. The cost of living is atrocious. It’s just wicked.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you.

Senator Cardozo: Thank you very much, Mayor Pope, for coming all the way here.

I am quite intrigued by you mentioning Diefenbaker. I happen to be reading a book by John Ibbitson called The Duel, which traces the history of Diefenbaker and Pearson over a few decades. Certainly, what you are mentioning is part of Diefenbaker’s vision of the West and the North.

Could you give us more of a sense of the area? First, for you to come here, how did you get here? Where did you fly to, drive to or whatever? Second, can you give us a sense of the area in terms of what amenities you have? You have a fly-in airport. In terms of the other towns nearby — I’m looking at Fort Good Hope, Colville Lake, Délı̨nę and Tulita — are there schools and hospitals? You mentioned the health centre. What kinds of amenities do people have? Do you have to go from one town to the next to get certain things, or are the most basic things available in Norman Wells?

Mr. Pope: I will start with how we got here. I flew out of Norman Wells south to Yellowknife and to Edmonton. We overnighted there, and got a flight to Toronto, and then a flight here.

Senator Cardozo: What kind of plane was that from Norman Wells?

Mr. Pope: It was a 737. We used to have the 737 service every day. Now, four days a week, we have the 737 service, I believe. While I say that we are becoming a fly-in community, our flying is depreciating; we are getting fewer and fewer flights than we used to get.

That is another concern: For us to come here for these meetings, we had to leave on Sunday, and then we have to leave tomorrow to get home in time, because there are no flights for two days on each side of these meetings. We had to condense our trip here and fly-in/fly-out — that’s what we’re doing for this meeting — because of the way the system is.

Four of our communities have health centres; Colville Lake doesn’t have a full-time one. All of them have schools that are kindergarten to Grade 12, or K to 12, I believe. They all have Northern stores and co-op stores. I think trapping is going to be coming back as a way to earn a living. It was done for a while, but there was a lot of work going on during the exploration days of the oil companies, and I think trapping is now going to be a way of life again.

I think our communities are fairly stable. They all have airstrips. They all have at least 3,000 feet, or maybe more. We have just under 6,000 feet in Norman Wells, and that’s paved — all the others are gravel.

Just because of the transportation system, if I hadn’t gotten the flight that I did, I would have had to fly from Norman Wells north to Inuvik, south to Yellowknife and then down to Edmonton. You have to really juggle when you travel —

Senator Cardozo: You are still not moving in the direction —

Mr. Pope: It’s all going backwards, yes. Some days, you can get on the flight in Norman Wells and go south, and, at other times, you’ll leave the South and go to Inuvik and then back to Norman Wells. Pardon my language, but it’s a crap show. Pardon me; I shouldn’t have said that. It’s a mess, rather.

Senator Cardozo: There is a way of interpreting that term.

Regarding the health centres, what levels of health care are available? Are there doctors in each of those centres? Is there more than one?

Mr. Pope: We have one doctor who comes in and travels to all five communities on rotation.

Senator Cardozo: They don’t even live in that area?

Mr. Pope: No, they come in for about a month and do a rotation. We have nurses who come in on rotation, as well, who work. Some stay in the communities, and some don’t.

In Norman Wells, we have a long-term care facility that was built about five years ago, where we have residents from all five of our communities staying, and they are well taken care of. For some reason, we are able to keep a stable staff in the long-term care part of the building, but, in the daily service with nurse practitioners, it’s difficult. So it’s not working too well.

Senator Cardozo: How about the schooling? Do you have multiple classes in the grades?

Mr. Pope: I believe there is K to 12 in all of our communities now.

Senator Cardozo: Okay.

Mr. Pope: We’re starting to get a lot more Grade 12 graduates coming out. The only issue is that a lot of our Grade 12 students have to get upgrading to go on to university and college. They are not quite where they should be. They are closer and getting better, but it doesn’t quite meet it. There is a lot of upgrading required for Grade 12 graduates.

Senator Cardozo: What is the Indigenous population in Norman Wells? What’s the size?

Mr. Pope: I think it’s maybe 40% of the community. Imperial Oil flies in their transient workers to stay in a camp — it’s maybe as many as 150 workers every two weeks who come in for two weeks and then go back south again. That boosts up our community a little bit, but they are not really contributing to the community.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much.

I want to come back to the issue of air transport because the 737 service is better than having tiny planes. What is the state of the airport and the runway?

Something we have heard from previous witnesses is that permafrost is having an impact on runway infrastructure as well. How stable is the land on which the airport sits?

Mr. Pope: My son worked for the Arctic airport in Norman Wells as a maintenance foreman, and they spent a lot of time in the summer tarring the airstrip for cracks and keeping it stable. So far, from my understanding, it’s holding its own. The community airstrips are gravel, and they are able to maintain them quite well by adding more material to keep them stable. They have not reached a stage of deterioration — at least not that I’m aware of. Two or three of the airports are fairly new, and, as far as I know, they are stable at this time.

Senator Simons: So Norman Wells would be the big air hub, and then there are the other communities around — does Fort Good Hope or Colville Lake have an airstrip?

Mr. Pope: They are all between 3,000 and 3,500 feet, I’m told, because the Hercules aircraft going into Fort Good Hope needs 3,500 feet, and he is going in there.

Senator Simons: So Fort Good Hope has a big enough airstrip to land a Hercules there, but Norman Wells does not?

Mr. Pope: No, we can accommodate a Hercules. We have 6,000 feet in Norman Wells, and that’s paved.

Senator Simons: This isn’t a little community where you just have little bush planes?

Mr. Pope: No, we have had the 737 jet service since the late 1960s.

Senator Simons: To fly direct from Norman Wells to Edmonton would be an undertaking?

Mr. Pope: Yes, and at a terrific cost.

Senator Simons: Yes.

Mr. Pope: I think it’s over $2,000 for a ticket from Norman Wells to Edmonton.

Senator Simons: Was there at one time a direct flight from Norman Wells to Edmonton?

Mr. Pope: I don’t believe so. I think you have always gone through Yellowknife or one of the other cities to the South. There may have been, but I don’t remember flying on it.

Senator Simons: The other question I want to ask is about the Hay River terminal, because Hay River — I know this well, as an Edmontonian — is an incredibly important transit hub, as the CN railway line goes all the way there, and the highway from Alberta goes all the way there.

Hay River was evacuated for wildfire reasons this summer. What impact did that have on transit? You talked about the transit of goods going this way, but what is the impact when Hay River is knocked out for goods going upriver?

Mr. Pope: It’s my understanding that the rail lines from High Level to Enterprise were damaged and have been repaired already —

Senator Simons: CN told me that they —

Mr. Pope: — but the rail lines into Hay River have not been done yet.

Senator Simons: Oh, wow.

Mr. Pope: That still has to be done.

My understanding is that for the winter road season, in order to get our fuel into these Northern communities, the Northwest Territories government has a plan in place to take the fuel from the railhead and Enterprise rather than bring it all the way into Hay River.

Senator Simons: Wow.

Mr. Pope: That’s what’s going to happen there, I understand.

I believe that one of the assistant deputy ministers will be talking to you later on, and will be able to fill you in on that.

Senator Simons: Terrific. Thank you very much, Mr. Pope.

Senator Quinn: I want to come back to the critical infrastructure that we have talked about and climate change.

If the idea of the 300-kilometre all-season road were put in place, as it gets warmer, what are the challenges associated with that, because some of that would be over the permafrost area? Over the longer haul, if it continues to get warmer, we’re going to have continual damage to the permafrost.

At what point does that road become serviceable on a year-round basis, or is that something that worries the community at all?

Mr. Pope: We have talked about it. We see it as an economic business opportunity to keep working with it, and to build it up to a better quality and to keep adding to it. Mr. Hodgson is the expert on winter roads, and he will give you some more information.

What they do is lay some sort of plastic material down, and then build on top of that. It gives you a break between the permafrost, the muskeg and the actual material that they are putting down.

Senator Quinn: Is it like an insulator as well?

Mr. Pope: I’m not sure. He is the expert, and he’ll be able to tell you.

We feel that if we build a road that we can use, then, over the years, we can build it up, build it up and build it up to a better quality, and try to alleviate having poor conditions.

Senator Quinn: Looking into the future, in regard to Hay River — and my colleague talked about what has gone on with Hay River this past season — if that kind of a situation continues, are there alternatives? The water transportation alternatives are virtually non-existent because of the rapids that you mentioned. That leaves, basically, either surface or air, and those costs, as you have mentioned, are 300% to 500%.

Mr. Pope: It’s 400% to 500%, yes.

Senator Quinn: How does a community sustain those types of increases?

Mr. Pope: With great difficulty. As I said, we’re a vibrant group of people up there, and we’ll do what we have to do.

When you have lived there long enough, you don’t want to leave. There are enough other things that will keep you there. There’s the beauty of the region, for example — and that’s what keeps us there, because we want to be there, and we’re going to try to overcome the hard times, if we can.

Senator Quinn: My final question is this: Without the critical infrastructure in place in the face of climate change, our question of sovereignty in the North must be a key element to ensuring that we have the right infrastructure in place in order to ensure that it’s a viable area — would that be a fair assumption?

Mr. Pope: Very much so, yes.

I think over the years we have had many military exercises take place in Norman Wells to protect the oil field — were there an insurgency from the North — whether it would be to use the airfield as a staging area for an enemy, or whether it would be to destroy the oil field so that there wouldn’t be any fuel. There have been exercises over the years — summer and winter — by the military to defend that area.

Senator Quinn: Thank you.

Senator Cardozo: I have two very quick questions, if I can.

Outside the winter months, can you travel to Tulita or any of the other communities?

Mr. Pope: By river, yes. We can travel by private boat up and down the river.

Senator Cardozo: Senator Quinn mentioned there are rapids on the river at certain times of the year. You actually have barges that can come up from Yellowknife —

Mr. Pope: It’s from Hay River — they come from Hay River or Fort Simpson, yes. They truck material to these two communities and bring it in by barge.

Senator Cardozo: How many months of the year can that happen?

Mr. Pope: Normally, we would be able to go from, I would say, the beginning of June until early October. This year, we didn’t get past mid-September.

Senator Cardozo: They bring you goods for that period, but for the winter months as well?

Mr. Pope: Yes, pretty well.

Senator Cardozo: You are stocking up on a lot of things?

Mr. Pope: Yes, it is pretty difficult.

The other thing that I don’t think I mentioned, too, is that Great Bear Lake is one of the best-known lakes worldwide, and they do not have a road that goes into the community. It goes to the edge of the lake, and they have to cross the lake with all that freight, fuel or whatever. If climate change does not allow them to have ice sufficient for these heavy loads, we have another problem there, too. You don’t want to have fuel trucks going through that ice, so there are other issues to think about.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator D. Patterson: Mayor Pope, the committee is studying the impacts of climate change, and we have talked a lot this morning — and you have talked a lot — about the impact of reduced water levels on the Mackenzie River.

We all know about the wildfires that caused the evacuation of Yellowknife and Hay River. Could you tell us a bit about how that wildfire season has impacted the Wells?

Mr. Pope: Well, Hay River, first of all, had problems with their harbour because of silt. They were having to dredge their harbour so that the boats could get in and out of the docking facilities.

Then, when the system got to the stage where some shallow draft tugboats were still able to navigate between Hay River and Norman Wells and Tulita, the evacuation of Hay River included the people from the Hay River docking facility, who would normally be there to load the barges. We had barges still able to navigate parts of the river, but there was nobody to load them. We had a double whammy on that one. We got hit from every side on that particular situation. We think that maybe they should have been termed as essential services, at the very least, when we were going through what we were going through.

Another thing, as you may recollect from the stories, is that Yellowknife, Fort Smith and Hay River pretty well evacuated by road to get away from their fire situations. It was dangerous, but they got out, and they flew some people out.

In our situation, if we were in a condition where aircraft could not land in our communities to evacuate people, we don’t have a road to drive out on. We’d have to go sit in a little personal boat on the river with all our personal supplies, and wait it out in the smoke. That’s just another thing that we are thinking about.

In 1995, we evacuated both Tulita and Norman Wells because of wildfires. At that time, I had my little boat full of all my personal gear, photographs and everything sitting on the dock — ready to push into the water if the fire hit.

What happened in Hay River, Fort Smith and K’atl’odeeche First Nation Reserve could also happen up in our region and beyond. Again, climate change is not just a river. The wildfires came from climate change as well, as far as we’re concerned. It’s a bad situation.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you for your testimony. This was extremely interesting for us. We are worried, and I understand that you are worried as well, so thank you so much for all of that.

[Translation]

That brings an end to our first panel. Thank you for taking the time to be with us this morning to answer our questions and share your perspective.

[English]

Honourable senators, we are continuing our study of the impact of climate change on transportation infrastructure in Northern Canada.

For our second panel this morning, we have the pleasure to welcome Tracy St. Denis, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs and Services with the Department of Infrastructure at the Government of the Northwest Territories, who is joining us by video conference; David Hodgson, President of HRN Contracting Limited; and Jason Balaski, President of Boiler Controls & Installations Inc.

[Translation]

Welcome to all of you and thank you for joining us.

[English]

We will begin with opening remarks of five minutes each, starting with Ms. St. Denis, followed by Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Balaski. We will then proceed to questions from senators.

Ms. St. Denis, the floor is yours when you are ready.

Tracy St. Denis, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs and Services, Department of Infrastructure, Government of the Northwest Territories: Good morning. Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair, and thank you to the standing committee for the opportunity to speak with you all this morning about the impacts of climate change related to transportation infrastructure in Northern Canada.

As you have heard already this morning, our climate is warming rapidly — more so in the North. The Northwest Territories is experiencing warming up to four times faster than the global average. This, of course, is impacting our transportation infrastructure, as witnessed first-hand by me this past spring and summer. The Northwest Territories, as you have heard, experienced dangerously low water levels on many of our waterways and an extreme wildfire season which, at one point, forced approximately 70% of our population to evacuate their various home communities.

My role today is to speak to you about one of the areas I’m responsible for: Marine Transportation Services, or MTS for short. As a bit of a background on MTS, it was formed in 2017 after our government bought the assets from Northern Transportation Company in 2016. Obviously, our government’s goal at the time was to ensure the assets — tugboats, barges and our loading terminal — stayed in the North so that essential cargo and fuel would continue to be supplied to communities along the Mackenzie River, as well as the Arctic coast and Great Slave Lake. That’s exactly what we have done since 2017.

You have heard today that we serve as an essential lifeline for residents and businesses and — for some of our most remote communities — providing a cost-effective way to get goods and fuel to those various communities. None of the 11 communities that MTS serves are connected to Southern Canada by road for the entire year. You have heard some discussion already about the winter road system.

Mayor Pope talked about Norman Wells, which is roughly 680 kilometres northwest of our capital. Of course, he also mentioned that it’s only accessible from late December until late March via the Mackenzie Valley Winter Road. Outside of that short period, you have heard that goods in and out of the community are moved by air or by tug and barge system on the Mackenzie River.

Our operation — MTS — has been severely impacted by climate change. Fuelled by weather events, the Town of Hay River, as you have heard, had some experiences this year. But I want to touch quickly upon 2022 when MTS — located in Hay River, where our headquarters are in the main cargo terminal — actually experienced severe flooding in the spring of 2022, which created challenges for the sailing season that year, and caused us to have a bit of a late finish. Due to the late completion in 2022, we had some barges and tugboats in some of our northern regions so that these assets actually didn’t return back to the main terminal in Hay River. The beginning of the 2023 season then saw many of our assets dispersed across the territory, adding an additional challenge to the team as they worked hard to make 2023 as successful as possible.

This plan, of course, was severely tested by climate change, with extremely low water levels on the Mackenzie River. As you have heard, this made it impassable for some of our tugs later in the season. This forced the team to take mitigating measures to make sure that we could deal with some of these impacts.

I quickly want to share with folks that we ended up moving fuel for our Inuvialuit Settlement Region — our Arctic communities. Fuel was moved over the top, which means that tankers brought fuel in from Washington along the B.C. coast and the north slope of Alaska to Tuktoyaktuk, where it was then loaded on barges for delivery. We also rerouted cargo from the Hay River terminal via the Dempster Highway so that we could meet up with the fuel to load barges in order to get essential cargo to Tuktoyaktuk, and then to other communities for their resupply.

Because of the low water levels in Hay River, we were also using a shuttle system that used a smaller tug to shuttle out barges to our larger vessels. We also reduced the amount of cargo and fuel that we put in our barges to make them lighter in order for our tug captains to have a clear view of the Mackenzie River, as well as to deal with the low water to ensure the barges were able to deal with the water levels. As mentioned, along with the low water and the wildfire season, there were a variety of challenges that impacted the 2023 season.

You’ve heard that Hay River was evacuated not once but twice due to wildfires. The first evacuation was for a few weeks in May. The team was able to regain some of that time. The second evacuation was five weeks in August, which created challenges for our displaced staff since we wanted to keep them safe, as well as our contractors. Even the smoke from the wildfires created challenges in navigating the Mackenzie River, but we built additional time into our sailing schedule to make sure that our tugs and barges reached their destination.

Our staff did an amazing job dealing with these challenges, coming up with opportunities and tools to mitigate the adverse circumstances. Basically, they devised plans A, B, C, D and F. I do want to thank them for their efforts. We were able to complete over 3,400 tonnes of cargo.

The Deputy Chair: I will ask you to conclude quickly, if possible. Thank you.

Ms. St. Denis: I just want to mention that we did move 22 million litres of fuel to those 11 communities. Climate change absolutely impacted our operation, but I want to let folks know that planning is under way for 2023, and I can go into more detail when there are questions. Thank you, deputy chair.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. St. Denis. Sorry for interrupting you. David Hodgson has the floor.

David Hodgson, President, HRN Contracting Limited: Good morning. My name is David Hodgson. I appreciate the opportunity to advocate on behalf of the community of Norman Wells and the greater Northwest Territories, where I have lived my entire life. I am one of the owners and the president of the Norman Wells business HRN Contracting, which serves the region by providing services related to heavy civil infrastructure construction. We provide services to the oil and gas industry, construct winter roads and work on other heavy civil development industries within Canada’s Sahtu Region in the Northwest Territories. One of our goals is to hold Canada accountable in helping us minimize the escalating impacts of climate change on our environment, and provide the requisite investment to keep the Sahtu Region sustainable now and into the future. I’m proud of our ability to adapt and survive in the North, but the unpredictable impacts of climate change have created an urgent need to adapt even more quickly than we have before. We believe that the solution to our long-term survival and the sustainability of our communities is directly tied to the building of an all-season road up the Mackenzie Valley sooner rather than later. Our view is that an all-season road — that provides economic and employment opportunities, while providing a sustainable, predictable future for our community in the Sahtu Region — is key to our region’s survival. We cannot allow this process to be mired in ongoing environmental studies. The projected completion date of 2037, as predicted by the Government of the Northwest Territories, or GNWT, based on the flow of federal funding, seems too far away.

This project has been assessed in terms of an entire highway network. However, I believe it could be segmented into 50-kilometre to 100-kilometre segments, building from Wrigley north, Tulita south and Norman Wells south, along with construction of the Great Bear River bridge. Senators, the fact is that our winter road seasons are shrinking. With 425 heavy loads predicted for this upcoming season, we will be hard pressed to handle the predicted 200% to 300% increase in traffic. I am trusting the Senate to bring this message regarding the need for critical infrastructure investment in the North to the attention of this government. Why are we not looking at the least expensive and more reliable option of an all-season road? We need to be looking at ways to advance construction of an all-season road in this region, and we need it now — sooner rather than later. Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. Now we will hear from Jason Balaski.

Jason Balaski, President, Boiler Controls & Installations Inc.: Good morning, honourable senators. My name is Jason Balaski, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of young entrepreneurs in the Sahtu Region. As you’ve heard, I am the Owner and President of Boiler Controls & Installations Inc., which is a utility services company. I provide services to the municipality, residents, commercial businesses and the industrial sector. We assist in the town’s potable water delivery services, sewer services and heating systems — residential, commercial and industrial — and we also provide municipality support for power distribution and production.

We are facing a crisis in the North right now. Young entrepreneurs do not want to invest in the North. I am one of the few under the average age of entrepreneurs, which is 50. Additionally, we are having difficulty attracting new residents to these areas. We are seeing our population decreasing — not increasing — while facing an aging population. To top this off, we are facing the effects of climate change on our critical transportation infrastructure.

This year, for example, with low water levels and wildfire issues complicating our barge deliveries, we are faced with major complications to our companies. We operate a 12-person crew of variously skilled journeypersons that we load balance on an annual schedule to ensure adequate work for business resources. With eight major work projects all trapped and not delivered on the 2023 barging season, we are now faced with compiling multiple projects at the same time in the summer months of 2024. This constraint not only places massive capital obstructions with over 200,000 materials not delivered and the inability to issue any invoicing for them until delivery — tying up all our capital and operating income — but it also constricts our ability next year for new projects already awarded for work that we would be unable to fulfill without massive expansion to our labour forces and potentially other lending for capital. This places major constraints on the ability of the business to operate and have sustainable, achievable growth. We face funding issues with lenders’ willingness to support such isolated and remote communities that they would normally feel more willing to support in southern areas with better infrastructure. This makes growth, purchasing and capital pursuits extremely difficult for small businesses in these areas. Without the access of an all-weather road, we are unable to control and facilitate our business in a structured manner that is plausible for any other investors. We stress that this region will be removed and die without investment here today to build necessary infrastructure for corporations to front future building costs and to manage expenses. The continued rise of costs will mobilize materials and drive project costs to become too expensive, and bids will be rejected, while work and stagnating economic growth will occur. With the necessary connection points of the road, businesses will follow and will return growth with the exploration of key resources and minerals — that we already talked about — by building on historical discoveries in the region. Thank you very much.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. Now we will open up for questions.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much. I want to start with Ms. St. Denis.

I don’t think that many of us who are not from the Northwest Territories — I think Senator Quinn and Senator Dennis Patterson would be the exceptions — really understand how important the Mackenzie River is as a transportation network. I am wondering if you could explain to what extent the cargo is moving north to south, to what extent it is moving south to north and how much cargo we are talking about in an average season, either in terms of physical volume or economic volume.

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you, senator. I guess to begin with your question about the north to south movement of cargo, historically, cargo, as you have heard, goes through Hay River as a hub, and would travel south on the river. What we did this year is we had a north-south approach — and this has been used in the past — whereby fuel and goods would leave Hay River like they did this summer. We managed to do three out of four trips to Norman Wells, and two out of three trips to Tulita, so it was Hay River to Norman Wells, and then we would deadhead or return some items — lesser volume — moving back to Hay River.

You heard me mention earlier that the northern operation — basically, Fort Good Hope north — is where we had the fuel come over the top. We had cargo travel by the Dempster Highway, and then we actually moved goods south to Fort Good Hope. Then, we had other fuel and cargo goods go to the Inuvialuit Settlement Region communities or the High Arctic communities.

For a little visual, 2023 was a south-north operation. As far as total tonnage, we’re looking at probably about 12 million pounds of cargo, and then, as it relates to fuel, I would say probably 18 million litres of fuel in total.

Senator Simons: You are responsible for waterway transportation, and I don’t know if you can answer this question. We’ve heard Mr. Hodgson and Mayor Pope before him calling for an all-weather road. In the Northwest Territories government, how much consideration is given to this, and what would be the major challenges not just in terms of funding, but also in terms of changing weather conditions? If the permafrost is melting, how much more challenging does that make the construction of an all-weather road?

Ms. St. Denis: Senator, I would start with an update. The committee may be aware that we have just finished an election. We are in a caretaker mode, and election for the premier and cabinet will be coming up shortly. I just want to share that with the committee.

What I can say is the project to construct the 280-kilometre all-season, two-lane gravel highway, going from Wrigley up to Norman Wells — that you heard the mayor reference — is in the environmental assessment process. I did reach out to some of my colleagues to get an update. The developers’ assessment report is an assessment of the project’s impact on the biophysical and socio-economic environment. That was recently submitted by the Government of the Northwest Territories, and it is expected that the regulator will issue some recommendations. I know that I am going to be working with committee staff on some additional briefings by our highways personnel, so I can continue to work with the committee clerk to see what additional information would be of interest to the committee, but I am more than happy to arrange for other team members to speak and share some more information.

Senator Simons: Those assessments would have been done under the new Impact Assessment Act, which was created by Bill C-69.

Senator D. Patterson: No, it’s the Mackenzie Valley — made in the GNWT.

Senator Simons: Thank you for that clarification, Senator Patterson.

Mr. Hodgson, you said that you weren’t deeply enthused about more impact assessments, but isn’t it important that we get it right so that if we build the road, it goes in the right places and has the right impact?

Mr. Hodgson: Definitely. They have done a number of studies over the years. I’ve seen a Project Description Report with the right-of-way, and we have been building and following it, as well as doing some access roads for the GNWT. At the end of the day, it would be beneficial to us if we could streamline this process and get things happening sooner rather than later, but they have to happen. It’s just a matter of making it happen sooner rather than later.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much.

Senator Quinn: Thank you, witnesses, for being here today, and for joining us by video conference. My first question is for Assistant Deputy Minister St. Denis. It comes back to the movement of fuel that has to change because of the challenges that you have been meeting. My question comes back to environmental response planning and preparation. What’s the capacity in the territories, with the federal government and the Coast Guard, in terms of environmental response planning and whatnot? In the river system, that’s a substantive amount of fuel, and if we are using alternative routes, as you said — coming from east to west in the High Arctic — what’s the response planning situation? I would imagine if there is an incident of oil lost in the water, it could be a whole other challenge, particularly with climate change, ice floes, et cetera.

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you, senator. I think that when we speak about climate change impacts, we are seeing that there is less ice, and we are seeing more wind, especially in the High Arctic. One of the mitigating steps that we did this year was reducing the amount of fuel that we were putting on each of the barges — and did more trips. That’s part of the mitigation.

We have a close working relationship with the Coast Guard, and had meetings with them two weeks ago — talking about getting ready for the 2024 season, and working with them regarding them getting out right away with the placement of buoys that the mayor alluded to. They will deal with the buoys that are on the river system.

The over-the-top route — bringing the fuel in by tanker — helped save time and allowed us to get that critical fuel to the communities, but I think it is just part of our operating environment, working closely with the Coast Guard and making sure that we are operating safely as we do.

Senator Quinn: How prepared are the various entities to respond to an oil spill?

Ms. St. Denis: On our vessels, we are required to — and we do — carry a variety of kits that assist if we have a situation. I can’t speak to the Coast Guard, but they do continual training, and that is at the forefront in their role to assist. It’s part of our operating environment, for sure.

Senator Quinn: Given the events of the last year, plus over time, there have been a number of occasions — over the last number of years — where there are disruptions because of circumstances such as low water, heavy ice seasons, et cetera. What’s the alternative if Hay River becomes something that is not practical in the future because of these types of events tied to climate change? Is your government focused on longer-term solutions and alternatives?

Ms. St. Denis: How I would preface it is that it is climate change. You heard me mention earlier that Hay River went from being in a flood situation in 2022 to having low water in 2023, so Hay River will always be the hub of transportation because of the railhead and the highway system.

The reality is that in our operating environment, we need to be prepared to pivot and do more mitigation that, maybe, we wouldn’t have experienced 5 or 10 years ago. We are having to prepare every winter for the unknown. The team did a lessons learned from 2022 on how to deal with increased water. No one would have guessed that we would have then — the very next season — seen extreme low water happening. I’m very pleased with the team that got ahead of harbour restoration so that we actually had harbour restoration started this season when we were experiencing low water.

The reality is Hay River will always be a critical piece of infrastructure. It will be up to us to be ready to deal with the fact that climate change isn’t the same every year — if, in fact, we are looking at a year ago when we had extreme high water on the Great Slave Lake versus this year when it was extremely and historically low. I think it’s the change from season to season.

Senator Quinn: This committee, at some point, will be putting our report together with recommendations. What is the one recommendation you would recommend to us that we should have in that report?

Ms. St. Denis: If the committee would allow me to just flag that we will have a new premier admin and a series of cabinet ministers. I think it would be quite timely to maybe pose those questions to a new government once they have an opportunity to meet and decide what their priorities are, but I suspect they would be more than happy to have a discussion.

Senator Quinn: As a former bureaucrat, I will not let you off the hook, and we’ll maybe come back to it on the second round. I was asking for your opinion as an experienced person.

The Deputy Chair: Good answer, Ms. St. Denis.

Senator D. Patterson: Mr. Hodgson, you have built all-weather roads in the region in the muskeg. Can you tell us about winter roads that you have built in your region and when, and also how you insulate against permafrost and how those roads are holding up?

Mr. Hodgson: We did a 14-kilometre road about four years ago. It was designed by government engineers. It was a good design with lots of culverts and drainage. It was built on geotextile fabric cloth.

Senator D. Patterson: Geotextile?

Mr. Hodgson: Yes, it’s geotextile fabric, and then blast rock was put on top — a crushed gravel driving surface. The road has held up fairly well. There has been a bit of settlement in the section that we built up. We are just finishing up another section of six kilometres using the same methodology. This area that we’re in is a wetter area, so the thickness of the road to blast rock is probably twice as thick as the previous section of road that we did. It remains to be seen how it will hold up, but I suspect it will be steady. We will need maintenance on it from time to time, but I do believe it will be there for the long run.

Senator D. Patterson: Thank you. Mr. Balaski, it is distressing to hear how you had eight projects ready to go this year, and none of them could be built. That’s a graphic explanation of the pressures on businesses and the costs. Could you talk a bit about yourself personally? You have a family. You and Mayor Pope talked about what the road would mean to your constituents. Could you talk a bit about how improved transportation would impact your constituents and your family?

Mr. Balaski: Thank you for the question, senator.

I have to hire personnel. I have personnel who live there, and personnel who are transient due to some trades not being available in the community. A lot of the time, when you are hiring people, they ask, “What are the amenities? What’s the access like?” We discussed already — during the other panel — about flights in and out. We have fog both in the fall and in the spring that eliminates days of flights. We already have a restricted flight schedule that we touched upon with Mayor Frank Pope. This could mean that for many, many days, we do not see traffic or have a connection to the South. There could be a serious reason that we have an individual trying to get out.

To speak about it personally, I do have a new six-month-old son, and my wife has been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, or MS. If I were to move her there, where she would need the support of a neurosurgeon, yet I wouldn’t have the ability to get out for multiple days without a road, that is a very constrained and restricted situation for me. Many people come to work for me, and many people apply to do so. I have this discussion with them because everyone has a personal reason for wanting to know about the connections. If you could get on the road and drive south to the hospital with your family or with your sick child, it would be different. Right now, our health centre is open on an emergency basis only. If I need to reach out for the care of somebody that would be in Yellowknife, I need the access to live there to be able to drive to that amenity. This has restricted a lot of good applicants from working for me because we do not have this access to the Southern world.

Senator D. Patterson: Thank you very much.

Senator Dasko: Thank you to our witnesses today. Mr. Balaski, I don’t know which community you live in.

Mr. Balaski: Norman Wells.

Senator Dasko: You live in Norman Wells. Last year, a committee that I was on — the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs — travelled to Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk, or Tuk, and we also travelled to Yellowknife. We travelled on the road between Inuvik and Tuk. We learned how important that road is for these communities — for the people in Tuk. They talked about the importance of this road to allow people from Tuk especially to go back and forth and buy their groceries in different stores and get better prices. I was really struck by the importance of the road, so I understand the comments about the road.

All that being said, I do want to ask about water. One of the things that we learned on the other committee — and we are certainly learning it here — is about climate change, as well as how it is affecting the Arctic and how it is opening up the Arctic Ocean.

Ms. St. Denis, since you are the person in charge of waterways, can you explain whether the Arctic Ocean is an opportunity for goods to be transported? How does that operate? Is it considered? Is there any economic viability? Is there a connection between, let’s say, Norman Wells and Hay River and the Arctic? I am asking about that as a waterway since you are in charge of waterways. Thank you.

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you, senator. As the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for Marine Transportation Services, we absolutely use the water as a water highway.

To your point about the Arctic opening up, I had kind of flagged earlier that we are seeing a change in ice reduction that puts us in a position to get to our High Arctic communities sooner, assuming we have the fuel and cargo ready to go. I think the reality is that everyone is looking to see additional traffic flow through the High Arctic. From our perspective, we are delivering fuel and cargo to very small communities, so the economics may not necessarily be there to have additional carriers. This is why the government stepped in and took on the role of running and owning MTS.

As far as your point about the economics, I suspect that in the cruise ship world, or possibly in other sectors, there could be additional traffic. From an MTS perspective, in regard to our core business of getting fuel, goods and construction material to those smaller communities, the economics there are one where the government plays a role in that socio-economic impact. There’s a reason why government plays that role in these situations because of the low population and low volumes.

Senator Dasko: We certainly heard about the cruise ship business. Are you saying that right now, it’s not necessarily viable as a route for vital goods to be using the Arctic Ocean and the connections?

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. From a government operation perspective, it isn’t so much vitality, or whether or not it is viable. It is an essential operation, which is why we have that role to provide essential fuel and goods to those High Arctic communities.

Senator Dasko: Thank you. We talked about the road, and whether or not it will be built. I think this builds upon Senator Quinn’s question. If there is no road, what is plan B? Anybody can answer that.

Mr. Hodgson: My thought would be that it is the status quo. We depend on barging and winter roads.

Mr. Balaski: I kind of touched upon it. The viable alternative is that we are just a shrinking season. I have been supporting this area for a decade now. When I first arrived, I was seeing nine barges in the community of Norman Wells. I was only managing boiler controls at this time; we had many alternatives or options. We had two operating companies for the barging season, and I was able to load all the materials required and receive them in a timely manner. Frank Pope touched upon a June to October season. We haven’t been seeing that consistent season for years, and it’s depleting.

The winter road will then pick up this slack, or pick up this missed opportunity on the barging season. The winter road, again, is not Highway 401. This is a very seasonal road. This is built with graters, with snow filling potholes. You are not hauling your china cabinet up this road. This is an off-road experience. I have been on it many times. This is not something on which we’re putting large, modular construction homes for daycare facilities, health care facilities or staffing buildings. We would tend to put those on a barge where they would come up in one piece.

I don’t know how we assess this, but you just touched upon the Arctic Ocean. They cannot provide for us through the Ramparts rapids between Fort Good Hope and Norman Wells if we have no water in the Mackenzie River. If we have no water coming that way, Norman Wells is disconnected from this, and so is Tulita. They are in the same connection stream as us. Air travel can only move so many goods. If we’re going to put everything in an airplane — and dangerous goods are a lot of our products, so if we put heating fuel and stove oil fuel in planes — we’re going to increase the risk of the potential for incidents or potential transfer problems. These are avoidable if we’re loading one truck, moving it, transporting it and off-loading it. We’re increasing risk.

I don’t want to talk too much, but I think there was damage this year to an MTS barge or tug due to the low water. I would hate to see a discussion in this hearing where we have a spill in the Mackenzie River that is funnelling into our Arctic Ocean. That’s not a discussion that we want to have. We want to have this proactive approach, and we’re looking at eliminating the issues that the low water is going to bring us.

The Deputy Chair: That’s really worrisome — a spill.

Mr. Balaski: Yes.

The Deputy Chair: Is it a faraway possibility? Or because of the state of the barges, you are worried?

Mr. Balaski: The lower the water, we’re going to have contacts with boats. I don’t operate the tugs, but I would envision this is going to become increasingly more common in the low waters and shallow water transport. You can transport less fuel, and you can do overdeck transport, as was touched on, but we need a certain amount of fuel to operate our communities. I believe that Tulita is used as a staging ground to provide winter road transport of fuel to Délı̨nę when they get access to the winter road. If we’re not able to transport to Tulita, we now put this emphasis on our winter road season, which is our community link for other areas and other materials that we move. Now we’re degrading this viable solution for us by transporting fuel.

If we were to have a tug hit and have a huge release, are we able to control that? The Coast Guard wasn’t able to get their buoys this year. Who is controlling the spill if none of the boats can move around in the water? We may have a plan in place, but is it actionable in low waters? It’s a concern.

The Deputy Chair: I understand. Thank you.

Senator Cardozo: I just have one question for Assistant Deputy Minister St. Denis. You mentioned that you just had an election, so there is going to be a new government. Prior to this, has the government been talking about putting money into this project? Is there a thought that the Government of the Northwest Territories can do this on its own, or do you need to have federal funds for it?

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you for the question. The reality is that when the government is operating a situation where there are essential goods and services, we’re trying to keep the cost of those goods at a reasonable level. This year, our rates only went up with the cost of living index. We don’t look to take advantage of the clients. We understand that these are taxpayers and residents of the North. Partnerships with the federal government have been key whether it’s Transport Canada’s marine services or it’s the Coast Guard. But absolutely, senator, there will be active discussions with our next minister about the importance of the federal partnership.

Senator Cardozo: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Balaski, you mentioned in your opening remarks that you are one of the few young people who are going there or staying there. Did you grow up there or did you move to Norman Wells? More generally, what would attract and keep young people in the area?

Mr. Balaski: Thank you for the question, senator. Mr. Pope touched upon it. I grew up in a northern Alberta community, just north of Grande Prairie, and I love the remoteness. I love the wildlife, and the ability to look out your back door and see the trees and mountains. The attraction for me is the setting. The setting is beautiful, with the Mackenzie Mountains, the Franklin Mountains and the Mackenzie River.

What is keeping me there and why I went there 10 years ago was my employer. He brought me there on a work project, and I fell in love with the community. I fell in love with the people, the atmosphere, the culture and the camaraderie of the social life there. It’s very inviting. I like the small-town feeling where you know everybody everywhere you go, as well as the conversations. I am truly endeared to that. That is what is keeping a person like myself, and I find that like-minded people are joining that.

The only negative that I receive on this is our connection issues. There are young families, like mine, or maybe slightly older families, that want to join and work with us, and their main concern is this: “I have a family of four, and I want to fly out for a holiday to Edmonton.” In the middle of January, our temperatures aren’t very warm, as you can imagine, and people want to go see a tropical climate. Just to get to Edmonton on the flights, if we don’t have winter road access in yet, this could be $4,000 to $5,000 for a family round trip out of Edmonton. That’s $5,000 gone before they even get to do some Christmas shopping — they want to stay in hotels in Edmonton, and they want to facilitate these things and buy gifts. This is depleted immediately just by getting to an accommodation place.

The reasons I’m there are merely my enjoyment and my love of nature, but one of the negatives is that I always keep coming back to the cost of getting in and out of this community and this area, and it’s reflected in our operating expenses as a business — and the consumers end up being the one to bear these costs when we try to take on projects and work for them. I hope I answered that well, senator.

Senator Cardozo: You did. Thank you very much.

Senator Quinn: I want to come back to Assistant Deputy Minister St. Denis, but not on the previous question that we left at the end of the last round. You mentioned that you were able to hold the increased costs to the cost of living. I really respect that you have been able to do that. What increased subsidization had to occur? Because unless that sector is unique in Canada, which I don’t believe it can be, the cost of doing transportation in Canada last year far exceeded inflation, as well as the cost of goods far exceeded inflation in many areas. Although you held the cost of living, what other costs were incurred by the Government of the Northwest Territories in taking that particular action?

Ms. St. Denis: Thank you for the question. I would start back in 2022. I mentioned that we had flooding situations in Hay River, and it impacted our season at the end of the year. We were unable to get into Sachs Harbour, which is an Inuvialuit Settlement Region community in the High Arctic. Our government arranged to fly in fuel and goods to that community. There were additional costs borne by that. Our government took care of those costs; those costs were borne by our government.

This is public information, but, this summer, when we announced that we were having to reroute cargo up to the Dempster Highway in order to have a successful season — which we did, by the way; we successfully delivered fuel and goods to those High Arctic communities — there were additional costs to that. At this point, we are going to be monitoring what those additional costs will be for the winter road. Again, we will be discussing that with our next minister, but, at this point, senator, those costs have been borne by our government.

Senator Quinn: The reason I wanted to raise that question was simply to say that when we’re looking at critical infrastructure and climate change, increased costs to governments and increased costs to company owners are also tied to critical infrastructure and climate change. It’s one of the factors that we, as a committee, may want to reflect on when we do our report.

My second question, if I may — it’s very short — is a follow-up to the comments that were made by Mr. Balaski. Again, this is for you, Ms. St. Denis. With the tug and barge operations that occur on the river — and MTS has taken that service over for the last few years — do you have difficulties in engaging qualified, experienced navigators and crews on the river to operate the tug and barge operations? I ask that because across the marine sector in North America — throughout the western hemisphere, for sure — there is a shortage of skilled labour. I’m wondering if that’s something that’s affecting you. That’s a very special operation up on the river. Those are special skill sets.

Ms. St. Denis: Absolutely, and I agree with the question and the comments.

We have been very fortunate that we have had our captains and key personnel return season over season. I would like to mention that the Western Arctic Marine Training Centre has recently opened in Hay River. They are working very closely with the Coast Guard. We also have ferry operations. Again, we’ll work with the clerk’s office. Marine Transportation Services — that I am responsible for — moves goods, but we also have ferries that act as part of that highway system for river crossings in non-winter situations. We’ll be working with the Western Arctic Marine Training Centre, whether it’s watch staff or a variety of staff that we need for not only MTS, but also for those ferry systems. That, to me, is an exciting opportunity for us.

Succession planning and attracting younger captains is a challenge across Canada. We’re hoping, in small steps, to work with the Western Arctic Marine Training Centre to try to address some of those challenges. It’s exciting times for us, for sure. The Western Arctic Marine Training Centre is located in Hay River.

Senator Quinn: Can you comment at all on the drivers of the trucks? Again, that’s a special skill set. Driving on the ice roads, as has been referenced, is not like driving down Highway 401. Do you have any observations on the same type of question regarding skill sets and competencies and availability of people driving those special trucks on those roads?

Ms. St. Denis: What I would mention is that — again, you’ll hear more from my colleagues — discussions have been under way for several weeks about getting those winter roads ready, and doing some preparation on building ice. There is also going to be increased enforcement. There are reduced highway speeds on those winter roads. We have recently met with Mayor Pope and talked about having key equipment available at certain critical points of the highway to ensure that they are there, should there be a situation.

In regard to the trucking companies that are used to move those goods and those fuel systems, of course — I won’t speak to their training programs — we’re going to, as a government, do as much as possible to make sure that there is enforcement not just for the truck drivers, but also for the general public travelling and traversing those winter roads safely as well. Thank you.

Senator Quinn: Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Senator Patterson, I thought you would conclude our panel.

Senator D. Patterson: Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair, and I appreciate the privilege of asking questions.

Mr. Balaski, you mentioned an incident with a barge, and I know that Ms. St. Denis may be familiar with this as well and may want to comment. Could you describe in more detail what happened there? What kind of barge was it, and what was it carrying?

Mr. Balaski: I can find out details for you, Senator Patterson. Again, it was what I heard on why we did not receive the last one — it had made contact with the ground, and there was potential damage to the vessel or the barge. I could find out and give you that in writing.

Senator D. Patterson: Okay. My last question, then, would be — unless Ms. St. Denis wants to comment on the damage — to you, Mr. Balaski. This was the question that Senator Quinn asked. If you have one recommendation that you would like to see this committee make to Canada, what would that be?

Mr. Balaski: It would be on behalf of a general consensus that I have done in the last 10 years of working in the GNWT. I can see that they have many resource companies leaving. I don’t see a lot going in. The infrastructure, such as this road, is going to provide insight into the North, and this is going to bring business back into the North. I see the wrong direction right now coming from the GNWT. I see that a lot of the infrastructure companies around Yellowknife, potentially even the diamond mines, don’t appear to be ramping up, and I don’t see oil and gas, or any of those other sectors, or mineral resources, being explored — or coming and reaching out to those historic land discoveries.

We need to install items like this road to expect to see private enterprise coming into these areas. I think it’s a necessity. That would be my relayed message.

Senator D. Patterson: Thank you very much.

The Deputy Chair: At the same time, if I can jump in on that, climate change is due to many factors. Oil and gas is one of them. Isn’t it a bit of a paradox to try to build up extraction — oil and gas — in your region, considering that we’re trying to fight climate change?

Mr. Balaski: Yes, I can see how those two would be potentially hypocritical of one another. You are fuelling one by fighting the other. The means to this area is not just oil and gas, though. There are other resources there. I used this as an example: Our region is currently funded by one economy, and it’s oil and gas, and I believe that sector is removing itself and leaving very soon. I don’t see a long-term plan in this area. But there are other resources with historical discoveries — that Mayor Frank Pope touched upon — that we would like to see explored, and that maybe will not have the same impact that we are challenging oil and gas right now to be fuelling this climate change.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you.

Ms. St. Denis: I just want to follow up on Senator Patterson’s question about the barge. In fact, Senator Patterson, it was one of our tugs near Fort Providence that unfortunately got stuck, and the Coast Guard attempted to assist, and then they also had challenges. We had another vessel come in, and we were able to free that tug. So, in fact, it wasn’t a barge. As I mentioned earlier, the team did a really good job, and they constantly monitor water levels to ensure those barges get loaded so that there is a minimum draft that we always have, but I just wanted to clarify that, in fact, it was one of our tugs that was successfully freed. Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Is it “St. Denis” or “St-Denis”? I keep on not pronouncing your name well, I think.

Ms. St. Denis: The official enunciation is “St-Denis,” but, as an anglophone, unfortunately I only speak a bit of French, so I enunciate it “St. Denis.” Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you.

That brings us to the end of our second panel.

[Translation]

Colleagues, please join me in thanking our witnesses for being with us and taking the time to answer our questions and share their perspectives with us today.

[English]

This was very interesting, and we are very grateful that you made this long trip to talk to us in real life about the enormous problems that you are facing. Thank you for making the trip and being here.

[Translation]

Thank you, senators. I declare the meeting adjourned.

(The committee adjourned.)