THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, June 25, 2025
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs met this day at 9 a.m. [ET], pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ericka Paajanen, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator M. Deacon: I move that Senator Yussuff take the chair of this committee.
Ms. Paajanen: Are there any other nominations?
Seeing none, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Deacon that the Honourable Senator Yussuff do take chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Paajanen: I declare the motion carried, and I invite the Honourable Senator Yussuff to take the chair.
Senator Hassan Yussuff (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues. I wish to thank Senator Deacon for nominating me.
More importantly, we have new members. It would be good to welcome our newest member and give him a chance to introduce himself to the committee since some of you may be seeing him for the first time.
Senator Ince: Thank you. My name is Tony Ince. I am from Nova Scotia. I was appointed March 7. I am excited to work with all of you. I look forward to doing great work and helping to improve the Senate.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Ince, and welcome.
Colleagues, we have some more mundane issues to resolve, and then we will have a chance to discuss more.
We will proceed to the election of the deputy chair; I am ready to receive a motion to that effect. Are there nominations for the deputy chair?
Senator Ince: My nomination for the deputy chair is Senator Al Zaibak.
The Chair: It has been moved that Honourable Senator Al Zaibak assume the role of deputy chair. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you, honourable colleagues. I look forward to working with Senator Yussuff and every one of you to advance the causes and objectives of this committee and the Senate in general.
The Chair: Thank you, and congratulations.
We now have routine motions to adopt, given the re‑establishment of our committee.
Do I have a mover for motion 3, Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure?
Senator McNair: So moved.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator McNair moves:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and two other members of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultations; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Is the motion carried, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Two other members are to be appointed to the subcommittee. We will work with other groups to get the names of those who will represent their group on the subcommittee, and we will inform the committee as a whole who those members are.
Senator Al Zaibak: Mr. Chair, can I nominate someone for the subcommittee on Veterans Affairs?
The Chair: No, we are not dealing with that yet.
Senator Al Zaibak: Not yet.
The Chair: We will return to that.
Do I have a mover for motion 4, to publish the committee’s proceedings?
Senator Al Zaibak: I move.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator Al Zaibak moved:
That the committee publish its proceedings.
Is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Can I have a mover for motion 5, research staff?
Senator Richards: I move the motion.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator Richards moved:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
I would like to invite the committee analysts, Ariel Shapiro and Anne-Marie Therrien-Tremblay, to join us at the table.
As some of you who were on this committee previously will know, Anne-Marie Therrien-Tremblay joined the Library of Parliament research and education service in 2019. She has been supporting the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs since February 2021. Previously, Anne-Marie served two House of Commons committees, National Defence and International Trade. She has a master of laws degree on transatlantic relations from Laval University and the University of Bordeaux and a combined bachelor’s degree in public affairs and international relations from Laval University. Welcome, and thank you again for being here.
Ariel Shapiro is not here today. Those of you who were on this committee will remember him dearly, having started in parliamentary service in 2013 and 2015 as a tour guide. Ariel Shapiro returned to the Library of Parliament in 2019 and immediately began to support the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs. He has a master of arts degree in international affairs with a specialization in security and defence studies from Carleton University, as well as a bachelor’s degree in political science from McGill University. We welcome Ariel Shapiro being assigned to our committee. We look forward to working with him when we return in the fall, and we thank him again for being a part of our committee.
Do I have a mover for motion 6, authority to commit funds and certify accounts?
Senator Al Zaibak: So moved.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator Al Zaibak moved:
That, pursuant to section 6(1), chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 7(1), chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Do I have a mover for motion 7?
The Honourable Senator Deacon moved:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Is the motion carried, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Can I have a mover for motion 8? So moved, Senator Duncan.
The Honourable Senator Duncan moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on “official business” for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on “official business” if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Is the motion carried, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Do I have a mover for motion 9? So moved by Senator Ince.
The Honourable Senator Ince moved:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable expenses related to the appearance of one witness per organization upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses of a second witness from the same organization should there be exceptional circumstances.
Is the motion carried, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Do I have a mover for motion 10? Moved by Senator Duncan.
The Honourable Senator Duncan moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct communications officer(s) assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans and products where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications, Broadcasting and Publications Directorate for the purposes of the promotion of their work; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee’s public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its proceedings, at its discretion.
Is the motion carried, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
The Communications Officer assigned to the committee is Sabryna Lemieux. Sabryna Lemieux joined Senate Communications in June 2024 and became Communications Officer for the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs during the Forty-fourth Parliament. She looks forward to returning to the committee this session, drawing on a breadth of work in strategic communications supporting policy, public outreach and international diplomacy. Sabryna, we welcome you to the committee, and thank you again for being here with us.
Colleagues, this brings us to the final item before the adjournment, other business.
For colleagues who are new to the committee, just to inform you, we meet on Mondays from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. It’s a coveted slot, and you don’t want to miss that no matter what is going on in your life.
There are a couple of other issues to cover before we adjourn. Normally we’ll have to deal with staff participation at in camera meetings, but we will take a motion for that when we start in the fall.
Colleagues, one item of business for us to consider is the creation of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs, or VEAC. I know that some groups have not yet resolved who their members will be for this committee. If those who are interested and have discussions within their group would like to get that resolved when we come back in the fall, we will deal with the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs and appoint those members nominated by their group to serve on that committee. We’re looking for full participation. As you know, the leaders did meet and provided some opportunity for other members who are not members of this committee to be able to serve on that committee, and I’m hoping we will have a full participation of the VEAC committee when we come back.
I’m sure colleagues will want to think about the business of the committee. Again, I would encourage all groups to discuss within their own group any items they may want prioritize and studies and other issues that you may want us to look at when we come back as a committee in the fall. Steering will consider any recommendations that will come before the committee for consideration.
In my analysis of what’s going on in the other place, the House of Commons, there is at least the potential for two bills that will come to this committee at some point in the near future when we return in the fall, but at this point in time we don’t have any of those bills yet clearing the process in the House of Commons to get over here. Those are issues that we will deal with when we return in the fall, whatever that date might be when we return here.
We look forward to the work ahead of us, but equally I look forward to collaborating with you in the best way we can. As I have said in the past, I am sure I will make some mistakes. I will seek your forgiveness when that happens, but we have been, for the most part, a very collaborative committee in how we have worked in the past, and I look forward again to the same kind of collaboration on how we can continue to do the work that’s necessary to ensure that this committee plays a vital role in the work of our country but also the work of this chamber to a large extent.
I will take any suggestions or comments individuals want to make before we adjourn.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for your leadership in the beginning of our session, at the end of our week.
There are two things I want to check really quickly. Number one, in the room, we have SECD members. I don’t have the list in front of me. I would like better insight if there is anyone not here today, to just remind me of that. Number two, I think good work has happened in communicating and trying to shift our gears to welcome folks to VEAC that may not sit on SECD, and that is a really good thing. I just would challenge — I’m not sure — I’ve talked to folks who are interested. I’m not sure people understand it’s a go or it’s not a go. As we move forward, I’m thinking about promoting that in the fall so there is some clarity or some additional communication going out that invites those who are interested to whatever the process would be. I feel like there is so much going on right now that my colleagues who are interested — there are two that would be interested, I think, but they’re just not sure, and I said, well, that clarity will come.
The Chair: I’ll make a suggestion. When I served on VEAC and on this committee, I was pretty well told to kindly ask, and I did both. I do believe the work on VEAC is really critical. These are the men and women who served this country and continue to serve our country, and it is a committee that plays a vital role in complementing the efforts that we need to strive to achieve on behalf of our veterans in the country, but equally, it plays a complementary role to this committee.
As you know, the leaders agreed that we can allow other members to serve on that committee who may not be a member of this committee. Those of you who are from different groups, you have persuasive powers to either yourself or tap a colleague who you find might be interested in serving. By all means, we would like to have full and equal attendance in that committee. It has been a challenge in the past of not having a full membership, but given the expansion of the committee, I’m hoping we will have full membership when we come back in the fall. We’ll do the best we can to promote it.
Similarly, Senator Deacon, we will circulate a list based on what we have been notified by different groups of who is on this committee. We will have the full list. The clerk will send that out so people have that full list of who is a member of this committee going forward when we come back. Very shortly, I think, we will get that to you.
Senator M. Deacon: One really simple logistical question was about the Veterans Affairs switch or enhancement. Is that going to be the secretariat or your groups communicating with your members, coming from your various leaders, or is communications going to be coming from SECD?
The Chair: With guidance from the clerk, I think it would be the groups that communicate within their own organization that this membership is open to those who are not a member of SECD.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
The Chair: I think some of that has been done, but I don’t know how each group is channelling that communication. We will keep encouraging. We will see what the membership looks like when we come back, but at the end of the day, I would simply encourage those who are here to do your best to try to communicate that.
Senator Cardozo: Mr. Chair, congratulations on your election. I wonder if you could tell us what you anticipate are the bills that will come our way.
The Chair: There is a border bill, as you know, that we are to discuss.
Senator Cardozo: Bill C-2?
The Chair: The government did table it pretty early in the session. I think it’s in the other place, not yet at committee. Again, a second bill was also introduced. I believe that would be coming here. I’m trying to remember the number. As I was reading the docket, I think it will end up here, and whether it gets split with another committee, I don’t know. There are at least two bills that I’m aware of in the other place that might end up in this committee when we come back in the fall. I don’t know what else is percolating on the other side.
Senator Cardozo: I would anticipate that Bill C-2, what I know of it, will spend some time in the House before it gets here. Will we have some time in the early fall, at least, to perhaps do a study or studies of our own?
The Chair: I anticipate we will have some time when we come back before we get any bills. We could try and figure out, when steering meets, what we want to prioritize for work in that gap until we get a bill, and then we can continue our work after we pass government legislation.
Senator Cardozo: So steering can do some of that work over the summer, perhaps?
The Chair: Yes, we can try to figure it out, once groups are able to canvass within their groups as to what might be recommendations for us to consider.
Senator Cardozo: Great.
Senator Richards: Going back to Veterans, I’m just wondering, is the membership still going to be five members on VEAC?
The Chair: It could go up to seven, is my understanding.
Senator Richards: It can?
The Chair: Yes, it can go up to seven. If you can find volunteers —
Senator Richards: I will be gone in October, so I don’t know what I will be doing. Anyway, I think VEAC is extremely important, so if we have more members, that’s great.
The Chair: Thank you for your leadership again. You were the deputy chair of the committee, and we look forward to having you there until you are gone. All of your attendance and appreciation is very much welcome.
Senator Richards: Thank you.
Senator Al Zaibak: I have two quick questions. One is related to VEAC. For those groups who have identified their members who are willing to volunteer for that, do we wait until the fall, or can we nominate them now?
The Chair: You can submit them to the clerk, as it will be a straightforward process. We will have the names and will finish the nomination in the fall. It’s a simple motion.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you so much. The other question relates to the work of the previous committee. How do we continue, use or leverage the work that has been done before this session?
The Chair: As you may remember, before the session ended, when we adjourned in December, we were in the process of a study. We didn’t finish that work. Essentially, that work dies at that stage. Now, we would need a reference back in the chamber to continue that work when we come back in the fall. We would have to go back to the chamber with that reference and get some guidance from the chamber. If that happens, then we will continue that work, if that is the priority of steering, and any other business that steering might recommend for us to take up when we come back in the fall.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you so much.
Senator Duncan: I just wondered if the other bill you were thinking of is the revamped Bill C-36.
The Chair: Yes, that’s the other bill.
Senator Duncan: Thanks.
The Chair: As you know, it was reintroduced, and one of our colleagues did all the heavy lifting. Who knows what will happen again when the bill comes back here. We will have déjà vu all over again with that bill. We don’t know what the House might decide, whether they will pass it as is or make amendments to it. It is pending.
As you know, in addition to that, we did pass a number of bills here quite some time ago, and I think there is some thinking about follow-up on those bills. We will be able to discuss all of that as a priority when we meet again in the fall.
Senator Duncan: It is a very important bill, and I think long overdue.
Senator Cardozo: Just on that, looking here, is it Bill C-8, An Act respecting cybersecurity?
Senator Duncan: Yes.
Senator Cardozo: That’s the one? Thanks.
The Chair: All right. Is there anything else before we adjourn, colleagues? If not, could I have a motion to adjourn our committee? So moved by Senator Cardozo. All those in favour of the motion? All right. We stand adjourned until the fall. Thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)