Honourable senators, the Senate is resolved into a Committee of the Whole on the subject matter of Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

Honourable senators, in a Committee of the Whole senators shall address the chair but need not stand. Under the Rules the speaking time is 10 minutes, including questions and answers, but, as ordered, if a senator does not use all of his or her time, the balance can be yielded to another senator.

The committee will hear from the President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, accompanied by officials.

I will now ask the witnesses to join us.

(Pursuant to the Order of the Senate, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc joined the sitting by video conference.)

We are joined by the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, P.C., M.P., President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Minister, welcome to the Senate. I would ask you to introduce your officials and to make your opening remarks of at most five minutes.

Also, on behalf of all honourable senators, I want to say how delighted we are that you’ve recovered. We hope you continue to enjoy good health for a long time to come.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Honourable senators, I’m pleased to be with you today. I’m also happy to see you chairing this Committee of the Whole, Senator Ringuette. I was thinking of you when I was in your beloved Madawaska region last week. I am glad to see you in the chair, because you have served New Brunswick so well for so many years.

I am pleased to appear before you at Committee of the Whole to discuss Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. As noted by the chair, I am joined by senior officials from the Privy Council Office: Maia Welbourne, Assistant Secretary of Parliamentary in the Office of the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet; and Shannon-Marie Soni, Director of Operations, Legislation and House Planning.

I also want to take a moment to thank my friend Senator Harder for his diligent and helpful work in sponsoring this bill. I had the privilege of working with Senator Harder closely in the last Parliament, and it is a privilege to be able to do so again now.

Madam Chair, Bill S-4 is an important next step forward in our government’s support of a less partisan and more independent Senate. The Senate, as all of you know better than I do, was created and continues to play an important role in providing sober second thought in legislative review, regional representation and representation of minority voices.

I am a fan of the work you do. My father had the privilege of serving in your chamber for 10 years, from 1984 to 1994, and he always spoke fondly of the work he was able to do for Canadians and of the friendships he formed in those years serving in the Senate.

The Senate is a pillar of our parliamentary democracy. It’s the upper house of our bicameral system, and it obviously serves as a representative body to review legislation, champion improvements, correct oversights made in the House of Commons and, additionally, to hold the government to account.

In 2016, the government introduced a non-partisan, merit-based process for Senate appointments. The Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments plays an important role in our democracy by providing the Prime Minister with non‑binding, merit-based recommendations to ensure that Senate appointees reflect Canada’s diversity and are able to make a significant contribution, as you all do, to the work of Parliament.

Since then, 52 senators have been appointed to the Senate through that advisory board process, and we expect to have additional appointments in the coming weeks as well. Since 2016, we have seen the creation of three new non-partisan groups in the Senate: the Independent Senators Group, the Canadian Senators Group and the Progressive Senate Group.

Building upon these important steps forward, changes to the Parliament of Canada Act and other acts are required to reflect the current reality in Canada’s Senate. The proposed legislation upholds our government’s promise to update the Parliament of Canada Act and reflect the current reality in the Senate. Importantly, these proposals are minimalist and incremental. They do not remove any authorities or entitlements. The proposals simply extend some of these to other recognized groups.

The goal of the bill is to ensure that the Parliament of Canada Act, which governs key aspects of how the Senate operates, reflects our current reality here in the Senate. The bill seeks to extend official recognition to the new groups that have formed, specifically ensuring that those groups play a role in Senate governance and the parliamentary appointments process, and that leaders of the groups receive allowances commensurate with the number of seats held by their group in the Senate.

More specifically, the bill amends the Parliament of Canada Act and makes consequential and related amendments to other acts to provide that the leader or facilitator of all recognized parties and groups in the Senate be able to make membership changes to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration and be consulted on the appointments of the following officers or agents of Parliament: the Senate Ethics Officer, the Auditor General, the Commissioner of Lobbying, the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, the Privacy Commissioner, the Information Commissioner and the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Such groups would also be consulted about the appointment of senators to the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.

This legislation would also provide that at least one senator from each group in receipt of the leadership allowance —

Minister, I’m sorry, but your time has expired.

We will move on to the first block of 10 minutes with the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, Senator Plett.

Minister, let me add my voice in welcoming you here today. It is good to see you looking so well, and I hope that will be so for many years to come.

Minister, your father was a senator, as you said. In fact, he was a Speaker of the Senate. I know you have a lot of respect for our institution and its traditions.

However, although I support Bill S-4, I take strong opposition to the comment that the Senate is any less partisan now than it has been since 1867. We may have groups that are not parts of registered parties, but believe me, there isn’t a person who serves in this august chamber who isn’t partisan.

Since 1867, the functioning of the Senate has been based on the distinctive roles of government and opposition, minister, to which you have referred. Bill S-4 does not change that. There will still be a government and an opposition side, minister, and I would like for you to tell us why you thought it was important to keep a government and an opposition in the Senate.

Thank you, Senator Plett and Madam Chair, for your kind comments. I very much appreciate them. I, too, look forward to being able to serve in Canada’s Parliament for a number of years, and I thank you for your kind comments.

As you said yourself, senator, there are very proud and long-standing traditions and constitutional realities that have defined our Parliament since Confederation. In this legislation, we decided as a government — and obviously by introducing it in the Senate, we wanted the Senate to be able to pronounce itself on the legislation, since it very much affects the functioning of your chamber — it would be appropriate to have the Senate be able to debate, discuss and/or amend the legislation, as it sees fit, before it comes to our place.

As you noted, senator, we did make a very deliberate decision not to change the fundamental and traditional roles that have existed since Confederation of a government representative group and an opposition. I know that Senator Gold and I, in a number of discussions before the legislation was formulated, talked about the importance of respecting those traditions but also of adding to them, as I indicated, in an incremental way additional responsibilities and allowances that would reflect other groups that have subsequently been formed in the Senate and which don’t fit into that particular definition. But in no way did we seek, as you said, to change those traditional and important institutions in your chamber.

I obviously defer to you and your colleagues in the Senate as to how the Senate chooses to structure itself. That’s why we thought it was important to have this legislation debated and, ultimately, we hope, adopted by the Senate. Then we’ll obviously make best efforts to do the same in the House.

Thank you, minister. I don’t know for sure whether I got my question answered, but that is also common in this chamber; we aren’t ever sure whether we get our questions answered, so there is nothing new there. But I certainly appreciate your response.

Minister, you and other government representatives consulted with leaders of all groups and, in fact, consulted with myself. I appreciated that. It was a very frank discussion. I believe you took note of the comments I made.

Would you just confirm, minister, that Bill S-4 represents a consensus of all groups? Why did you feel it was important to get such a consensus — if in fact you would agree with that — before tabling this important bill?

Madam Chair, through you to Senator Plett, you’re absolutely right, senator. We had what I thought was a productive, constructive conversation. Senator Gold and I had similar conversations with other leaders in the Senate.

We see this legislation as being — I’m trying to think of the right legislative term — born in and of the Senate in the sense that, if the Senate didn’t achieve a consensus amongst the different groups and the leaders representing those groups, the House of Commons wasn’t going to opine itself on matters that affect directly and only the Senate. We hoped that could be the product of consensus.

As you correctly said, we didn’t think it was appropriate, and frankly, we didn’t think in a minority Parliament in our chamber it would have been particularly constructive to draft and introduce a bill that couldn’t achieve a certain element of consensus in your chamber. Your role as Leader of the Opposition was important therein. Senator Gold is holding the tiller in this process, as is Senator Harder, but I worked with Senator Gold as our representative to try to find the right balance to reflect — as best as we thought — a consensus in your chamber, but I will obviously be governed by your chamber’s voting, if and when the Senate opines itself on this legislation.

Thank you. You did answer a question that I was going to ask and that is why you chose to table a government bill in this house rather than in the House of Commons, but you pre-emptively answered that, so thank you.

Minister, there are additional allowances contained in section 3 of the bill. Again, I’m supportive of those. But the bill has them coming into force on July 1, 2022. How did you come about picking that date?

Madam Chair, through you to the honourable senator, I’m glad you asked that Senator Plett, because in discussions with officials at Privy Council when we talked about this legislation, I asked that same question. Because there is a non-appropriation clause in the legislation, for the reasons I mentioned, this is properly a bill that concerns only the Senate, and we thought it would be respectful and appropriate for the Senate to pronounce itself on the legislation. We hope and believe we can quickly ratify it in the House of Commons, since it affects only the Senate. We hope that our house would be respectful of that consensus that we hope we can develop in the Senate.

However, because there is a non-appropriation clause, the legal advice we got on the way to bring the legislation into effect took into account a number of Speakers’ rulings around how these non-appropriation clauses can be used to properly create a legislative framework. We took note of a decision of Speaker Kinsella in your chamber and Speaker Regan in our chamber. The non-appropriation clause would allow us in a subsequent supply bill to attach the appropriation necessary to bring it into effect.

If Senator Gold and leaders in the Senate had a way that would be more certain than July 2022, we would be wide open to looking at it. There is no magic to that date, but that was on the advice we received. Effectively, we will have to pass a supply bill in our house and send it to you to attach the appropriation, and that’s what will bring the legislation into effect.

Our thought process was that we don’t know what events might happen this fall, when there would be the appropriate supply process, but if there were a reliable way — and we would welcome your suggestions and I’d be happy to work with Senator Harder, Senator Gold and others and yourself — and we could come up with an earlier implementation date, we would be wide open to it. It wasn’t ideological. It was the worst case scenario of when a supply bill could properly add the appropriation. But it is no more significant than that. I had the same reaction. It seemed like a long runway, but if there was a way to coherently and properly shorten it, we would be wide open to having those conversations.

Our chair is really quite punctual with time. I will say this, and you may or may not have time to answer me. Maybe you can answer it down the road.

You did choose to make this a stand-alone bill instead of putting the small changes of the Parliament of Canada Act into the budget implementation act. If you have time, give me a Reader’s Digest version of whether that would have been a simpler way of doing it.

Sorry, your Reader’s Digest response will have to wait. We are now moving to the next 10-minute block.

Minister, it is a pleasure to see you looking so hale and hearty. Thank you for joining us today.

On behalf of the Independent Senators Group, I would like to thank you for your dedication to the issue of Senate reform. It is near and dear to many of us. Senator Plett has asked my question as to why this is being introduced in the Senate and not in the House, particularly since there are financial implications, and you have answered that.

I wanted to pursue the issue of incrementalism. You mentioned incremental changes. If we look at the Westminster system and how that has evolved around the world in former colonies, we see that New Zealand abolished its Senate. Australia decided to hybridize theirs, making it a combination of the British and U.S. systems, but with proportional-type elections and an ability to deny or cast a veto on all bills, if that is the case in Australia.

Are these just baby steps or do you have a longer-term vision of what you would like to see the Senate become? These measures seem fairly cautious when compared to what has happened in some of the other countries. Even in the U.K., there has been extensive polling and a lot of work in the past few years to change the House of Lords. The steps there have been taken gingerly, so I am wondering how you would plan ahead if you could?

Thank you, Madam Chair and through you to Senator Boehm, it is a privilege to see you this afternoon. I had the privilege of knowing and working with Senator Boehm when I was a young assistant in Mr. Chrétien’s office. Chair, you were sitting in the other chamber then and Senator Boehm was a senior official at the Foreign Affairs Department. He and I did a number of trips together. It’s a privilege for me to be able to work with him again in his new role as a parliamentarian.

Senator Boehm, your question is a very good one. As somebody interested in these issues since I was a student, I took note of former Prime Minister Harper’s reference case to the Supreme Court around the possibility to change constitutionally the role of the Senate. In that case, there was an issue around potentially electing senators. It’s obvious there are limitations around the kinds of reforms that we have seen in other Westminster parliamentary jurisdictions — you mentioned New Zealand and Australia — and obviously those kinds of profound, fundamental changes to a fundamental bargain of Canadian Confederation, which was the Senate, would require a level of constitutional change that we don’t think the country is particularly inclined to head into.

The Prime Minister articulated this view five or six years ago. We think the Senate can — as it has, I would argue, in recent years — work well in providing the legislative review that is fundamental to a bicameral parliamentary system. We believe the Senate, in its current role, can and does play an important part in the parliamentary life of our country.

We don’t think Canadians want to have a discussion around constitutional change at this moment. Previous prime ministers have been of the same view as our current Prime Minister.

As a government, Senator Boehm, we very much wanted to focus on what we could do to encourage the Senate to assume its historical role. As someone from a small province, like New Brunswick, for me it is important, as it is for many people across the country.

We’re proud of the work the Senate has been doing. We think these incremental and — you’re right, Senator Boehm — modest changes, certainly in a constitutional context, have been valuable. We think Canadians have been tuned in to the work the Senate is doing in a way that perhaps we hadn’t seen for some time. We think it validates the important role the Senate can play in Canada’s Parliament.

However, there is no desire or particular plan to look at more significant renovations. We’re happy to allow the Senate to evolve in the way that you, as a member of the Senate, and your colleagues who serve there think is in the best interest of Canadians.

Thank you very much, minister.

Madam Chair, I yield the balance of my time.

First of all, Minister LeBlanc, thank you for the work you’re doing to modernize the Senate. In fact, your conviction with respect to this process, which you articulated so well at the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament in February 2016, was the spark that prompted me to become an independent senator.

That being said, Bill S-4 officially recognizes that the Senate of Canada is no longer a duopoly. Bill S-4 allows the Senate to be made up of several groups that are not necessarily affiliated with a political party, and it promotes pluralism, making it more difficult for a government to try to control the majority of votes in the Senate.

Nonetheless, the Senate appointments process is just as important for preserving the Senate’s credibility with Canadians.

There is no clause in Bill S-4 that covers the appointment process. My question is the following: Does the government intend to ensure a certain continuity at the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments, and how does it plan to do that?

As you know, the United Kingdom has had a similar appointment process for the House of Lords since 2000. In the United Kingdom, political parties can nominate candidates. Would you be in favour of that option for appointing future senators in Canada?

Thank you, Senator Bellemare, for your question and for the work you do on behalf of Canadians.

As you said, the appointment process we introduced following the 2015 election reflects the priorities that our Prime Minister expressed at the time — a commitment we made to establishing a more transparent process that allows people to nominate themselves. It is wonderful that someone can apply to become a senator. This gives people a chance to signal their intention or desire to serve Canadians in such an important role in the Senate.

The members of the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments are appointed by order in council, which makes the deliberations of the advisory boards in each province more official and important. I have the privilege of asking the provincial premiers to suggest people who could represent their provinces. You know the process as well as I do.

Based on advice we received four or five years ago regarding a fundamental constitutional change, the Prime Minister is the one who must appoint senators. In our case, he decided to give a list of highly recommended candidates to this group of distinguished advisers, but ultimately, and legally, the letter that the Prime Minister sends to the Governor General serves as the official recommendation that someone be appointed to the Senate.

I asked why we weren’t considering drafting legislation for this process or a version of this process — I don’t have the document with me, but I was the House leader in the other place at the time — and I clearly remember the advice we were given, or at least what I was told in a briefing. The Justice Department probably had some misgivings about interfering with the Prime Minister’s constitutional discretion. If we tried to draft legislation for this, it was unclear whether it would be easy to do in a constitutionally appropriate way. That is why we decided to use orders in council to establish the board. However, the Prime Minister does follow the advisory board’s recommendations.

Minister, thank you for being with us today. I want to say how much I appreciated the opportunity during the consultation process to speak with you about the plan.

I have a couple of relatively quick questions. First is a technical question that came up recently.

The bill provides funding for the three largest groups that are not government or opposition based on membership. What if, for the largest groups, there is a tie, so that the two largest groups have the same number of members? Conversely, what if the third- and fourth-largest groups have the same numbers? The bill is silent on that. I wonder if you have given that any thought. Is an amendment required? In your opinion, could we deal with this in the Rules of the Senate?

Senator Tannas, thank you for the question and for the conversation we had some weeks ago.

The government is not proposing to insert a tie-breaking mechanism in the act, which we are told — and we believe — enables the Senate to determine the appropriate approach and mirrors the situation that would exist in the House of Commons. Because the legislation, as you properly noted, is silent in the case of a potential numerical tie, it would be up to the Senate — referring to any precedents that exist in your chamber — as the Senate sees fit to resolve the issue of a tie. We were told there are ample precedents in the House of Commons for circumstances like that, and we would be governed by the decisions of the Senate and the rules that govern how the Senate itself would resolve that issue.

Thank you very much.

For my second question, I found it odd — and increasingly so as the government seeks to help foster a more independent Senate — that the Clerk of the Senate remains a hired position determined by the Prime Minister. Is there any thought of addressing this kind of odd situation in the bill?

Thank you, Honourable Senator Tannas, for the question. I wondered the same thing, senator. You’re right; these are Governor-in-Council appointments. The decision was that if we opened it beyond the commitment we made to reflect how the Senate has evolved, to properly recognize people who play leadership roles in the Senate and to recognize their service and increased responsibilities, then obviously the Prime Minister would appoint a Clerk of the Senate in consultation with the different leaders in the Senate. Obviously, Senator Gold would be intricately involved and would have conversations with his counterparts in circumstances like that. We wouldn’t purport to appoint someone who didn’t achieve a consensus.

It should not be a position other than, obviously, a merit-based position where somebody serves the Parliament of Canada in that important role.

Should there be an appointment, the Prime Minister or I would consult Senator Gold, the Speaker and obviously the leadership of the Senate. That would be the way we would operate.

We did deliberately decide to stick to the lane that we’d committed to in the election campaign, reflecting the way the Senate has structured itself and giving the leaders that play roles in the Senate, such as yourself, increased responsibilities and the proper recognition in the legislation. If we got into Governor-in-Council appointments, then the obvious question will be: What about the clerk of the House of Commons?

Again, if the Senate had strong views on that and wanted to pronounce itself on that or if Senator Gold and other leaders in the Senate feel strongly, we’re open to having that conversation. We thought if we left the lane of this piece of legislation; we’re hoping we can pass this before Parliament finishes in a few weeks. That’s very much our intention. We wanted to keep to that minimalist, incremental gesture, but we’re wide open to continuing conversations on other matters like that, senator.

Thank you, sir. I’ll leave it there and yield the rest of my time.

Thank you, Minister. I must admit that I’m having trouble understanding, but I will still ask you the question. The Senate is part of Parliament. We know that in most Parliaments, the opposition is represented by the largest group. How can the opposition be represented by a group that is smaller in size? Would senators always be appointed on the recommendation of the Prime Minister? In all honesty, I do feel like we are an independent chamber, but that may not necessarily be the case. I would like your comments on that.

Thank you for your question, senator. I agree with you. As you are well aware, senators are constitutionally appointed on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and your colleagues know that better than I do. The Prime Minister decided to exercise this duty in a different way and to rely on the input of an advisory board, as you know and as I mentioned to your colleague. The Privy Council handles applications from people who wish to signal their intention or desire to serve in the Senate. The change has resulted in greater transparency and an increase in Canadians’ participation in this process, but we are bound by the constitutional reality, and the Prime Minister accepts that responsibility.

With regard to the opposition, when I think about what we do in the House of Commons and the way it’s set up, you are absolutely right. It’s a bit different to imagine the opposition not necessarily being the second-largest group. Honestly, we think it’s up to the Senate to decide how to structure itself. We don’t think it would be appropriate for the House of Commons or the government to have strong opinions on how the Senate chooses to structure itself or on the groups that are set up.

As I said in response to Senator Plett, we also recognize that there is a great deal of merit in not diminishing, removing or minimizing structures that have existed in the Senate for the last 150 years or so, with a government party and an opposition. We will happily observe how the Senate decides to structure itself over the coming years. As a government, we will try to be as accommodating as possible to the decisions and desires of honourable senators.

Thank you very much, minister.

Welcome, minister, it’s great to have you in the Senate. I’m sure your dad would be pleased that you are a witness in the Senate, but I’m sure he’d also be pretty surprised that we’re meeting by Zoom today.

I will be sharing my time with Senator Dalphond. I want to express my appreciation as others have done for the consultation, minister, that you had with all leaders in the chamber regarding the legislation that will impact all of us. I agree with what Senator Plett said yesterday in the chamber when he said: “The role of consensus-driven change is especially important in the current Senate . . ..” I share his view and yours. I know that this is the preferred way to move forward.

I know that many of us have been pleased to see the promised updates to the Parliament of Canada Act that reflect these changes that we’ve been making to our own rules and practices for quite some time. Indeed, these legislative updates will also reflect your government’s commitment to parliamentary reform.

In my speech at second reading, I noted that in your former role as house leader that you reached out to our former colleague Senator Cowan to offer to work with him and others should any changes be required to the Parliament of Canada Act. In response, he called your attention to the 2001 Rules Committee report from the Senate and its recommendation to amend the act to reflect all recognized parties and groups, as is the case in the other place. It was five years ago since that exchange took place and changes within our institution have yet to be reflected in updates, and this bill does that. It’s been five years and I’m very pleased that this bill is before us and I’m very pleased with the amendments that you brought forward in this piece of legislation.

I wonder if you could tell us what the delay was? Why did it take five years to bring forward this piece of legislation?

Senator Cordy, always a privilege to see you from my neighbouring province of Nova Scotia. I’m very happy to see you and I hope you’re well. Thank you again, Senator Cordy.

You and your fellow Senate leaders acknowledged our effort to try and understand priorities of different groups in the Senate by talking to different leaders in the Senate. Senator Gold, with whom obviously I work closely, was very much of the view that that was the best way for the government to proceed. We obviously enthusiastically accepted Senator Gold’s suggestion, and he and I were able to have those conversations. He is a very valuable support to me, to the Prime Minister, and to our house leader in terms of how we can achieve consensus in the Senate, where possible, to make legislation better for Canada. That’s something that we all have in common.

Senator Cordy, you’re right, it’s taken too long. In conversations with some of your colleagues, even a year ago, I think we acknowledged that this could and should have been done, perhaps on a more expedited basis. Obviously, in recent months it’s been a number of events with the pandemic and so on. You’re right, as the new appointees arrived in the Senate, particularly in the 2015 to 2019 period, we saw the Senate structure itself in ways that obviously you and your colleagues thought appropriate. We respected that. It has certainly been clear to us in the last year and a half, and my conversation with Senator Woo and others after the election of 2019 certainly made it clear to me that the government should proceed with this legislation. We’re happy to do so. We recognize that it’s taken some time and we regret that. Obviously we will be governed by how the Senate pronounces itself, but we, the house leader in conversations with me and Senator Gold and others, hope and will need all honourable senators’ help with our parliamentary colleagues in the House of Commons to see if we can’t have the legislation adopted, obviously, before we finish in June, go to Royal Assent and then we can work on the supply bill piece. I recognize, Senator Cordy, the delay is not ideal.

Thank you, minister. I will hand off the rest of my time to Senator Dalphond.

Minister, thank you for being with us today, and thank you for this bill, which incorporates the Senate’s new operational reality into the Parliament of Canada Act. Am I correct in assuming from your responses so far that the government intends to leave the rest entirely up to the Senate, and that the next steps in modernization must come from within the Senate and not from the government?

Senator Dalphond, as a government, we are constantly on the lookout for good ideas to help improve how Parliament works, and especially to improve the rules governing the House of Commons. As for reforms to the Rules of the Senate, we obviously have no opinion on that. It is up to the Senate to make decisions about any changes, modernizations or updates you deem appropriate.

Senator, you know the Canadian Constitution better than I do, but we believe that we are relatively limited in what we can do to change the basic structure of the Senate, as I mentioned earlier when talking about former prime minister Stephen Harper’s government.

We believe in the existing system, with a more open and transparent appointment process. We also really enjoyed seeing how the Senate itself formed its own different groups. We think that can improve bills coming from the House of Commons as well as Canadian public policy.

As a result, we are not looking to make other changes to the appointment process. We believe that we took a step in the right direction. We will maintain the appointment process as was announced.

In the coming weeks, we will probably be making other appointments in response to the advisory boards’ recommendations. As you said earlier, we’ll let the Senate make its own decisions about how to structure its institution. As a show of respect, we have no opinion on the matter, if that’s what you were asking.

I have a question about the appointments process, which I fully support. Might there be some way to speed it up a little? We currently have no fewer than 15 vacancies in the Senate, and a quarter of the seats for Western Canada are vacant.

Thank you, Senator Dalphond. You’re absolutely right. We are about to fill several vacant Senate seats, and I hope that will happen in the next few weeks.

To be honest, it’s harder for the advisory boards to discuss potential candidates virtually than in person. The same goes for simple procedures such as background checks. Before someone is appointed to the Senate, security agencies conduct background checks. We’re seeing significant delays in getting the results of those background checks from the security and intelligence agencies. It’s a completely normal process, but COVID is causing lengthy delays. That is a way too detailed and technical explanation, but we do realize we need to move quickly. I have reason to believe that there will be far fewer than 15 vacancies a few weeks from now.

Thank you, minister. I look forward to the next appointments.

Thank you, minister. It is always a pleasure to welcome you to the Senate to discuss the issues.

You spoke very respectfully about the traditions of the Senate, of the opposition. You say that in the bill, there is a consensus and you agree with it. You agree with maintaining the opposition role and giving it critical importance. You talked about the benefits, saying that respecting the opposition traditions has its advantages. Can you describe the advantages of having an opposition in a chamber like the Senate or the House of Commons?

Thank you for the question. Senator Carignan, it is always a pleasure to see you. I had the opportunity to be a government backbencher. After that, I spent nine years in the opposition in the House of Commons, and towards the end, I was in the third party in the House of Commons. Then I became a government member and a minister as well. I recognize the importance of having an opposition in a democracy. Obviously I recognize the importance of the House of Commons. During my discussions with Senator Gold and some of your other Senate colleagues, we agreed to uphold and respect this tradition in the Senate, which goes back to Confederation.

As I said in my comments at the start of the Committee of the Whole — I said some nice things about your Chair, but I ran out of time. I also wanted to highlight the importance of the government being accountable to parliamentarians in both houses. As a minister, I have twice had the opportunity to participate in Question Period in the Senate. I really enjoyed the experience, as did my colleagues. It was an important moment in my role as minister. I am certain that everyone found the experience very interesting.

However, be it before a standing committee or a Committee of the Whole, we appear before you to ensure accountability to Parliament, which includes both houses. We have no problem with a parliamentary group in the Senate playing this role to improve bills and public policy. It gives Senator Gold the opportunity to rise and answer questions. Only the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister and Senator Gold can answer questions on behalf of the government as a whole. I would never presume to take that opportunity from him. I know he loves that role. He gives very precise, detailed answers to all your questions. I would never presume to take that opportunity from him.

Thank you. I see that you’re meeting your objective. Can you say a few words about the advisory board, which is supposed to submit a report? I see that we haven’t received a report since December 5, 2018. You talk about a transparent board, but why hasn’t the advisory board submitted a report on Senate appointments to us since December 2018?

I understand that you will be filling seats in the coming weeks, but why didn’t you do it sooner? You will be appointing people in June, just as Parliament rises. Why fill these positions before holding an election? I don’t understand. Why didn’t you make these appointments sooner so the new senators could have a chance to work with us? What’s going on with the reports from the advisory board?

Senator, I don’t know whether there will be an election anytime soon. I’m not as convinced as you are that an election is right around the corner. As Senator Dalphond pointed out, it is not ideal to have a large number of vacancies in the Senate from a representation perspective. It’s a lottery as to who will retire and when. This could cause a significant regional imbalance, which is not ideal.

We will be making these appointments. I’ve had a discussion with Huguette Labelle, the chair of the advisory board. I know she feels that some of the premiers have been slower than expected in sending in their suggestions. I have written to the premiers, but we haven’t received responses from across the country as quickly as we would have liked.

Obviously, the background checks for people appointed to the advisory boards, which are order-in-council appointments, take a long time. As I said before, I don’t have any reasons to give you. Unfortunately, for the past year or year and a half, this type of appointment has been taking longer than we expected. However, with respect to the committee’s report, I will ask Ms. Labelle the question. Honestly, I don’t know why the board is independent of the government, but I will ask the Privy Council Office to check with Ms. Labelle, who is doing very important work in this process. I will come back to you later with a more complete answer, because I can’t give you an answer at this time.

As we are discussing appointment processes for important positions, I wanted to ask you if this bill will be signed into law by a governor general, or will it be signed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court?

That is a very good question. The Prime Minister asked the advisory board to provide a short list of potential candidates, and that is what the board hoped to do. The board has met 11 times to date. I spoke with the Clerk of the Privy Council earlier today. There will be another meeting of our small advisory board, which consists of six people: four volunteers, the clerk and myself. We ask these people to volunteer their time. We are coming to the end of our process, which is encouraging. Naturally, the required background checks are under way.

Unfortunately, we were unable to meet the deadlines that I mentioned publicly in media interviews. I don’t want to do the same thing before the Senate, but we will probably be able to appoint a new governor general by the end of the session or by Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, if not before. We still haven’t given the Prime Minister a list of candidates. We are finishing up our work, and it will be up to the Prime Minister to think about what will happen next. Of course, even once the Prime Minister has chosen a candidate, the swearing-in process could take some time. Because of the pandemic, we will not be able to organize the same type of ceremony that we have seen in the Senate in the past, which means that the person who is appointed could start serving more quickly than usual. It is not ideal for the Chief Justice to be filling in for months at a time. We will try to get this situation resolved as soon as possible.

Thank you. I think that this situation puts the Chief Justice in a very awkward position with regard to some bills that could end up before him one day.

I agree with the senator, Madam Chair. The Chief Justice is already busy enough with his regular duties. This is a lot of work for him. It is a completely appropriate arrangement constitutionally speaking, but we are approaching the end of the process for both the Chief Justice and the Governor General of Canada.

Good afternoon, minister. I’d like to start by thanking you for your contribution to the modernization of the Senate, and I would be remiss if I didn’t thank you for your tireless dedication to New Brunswick, Acadia, and our country.

Let me say that I’m honoured, as a citizen who has never belonged to a political party, to have been appointed to the Senate through a new, less partisan process. Let’s hope this process will be permanent, because it truly reflects our country’s diversity. That said, minister, let me ask you something. The Senate’s mandate is to represent the regions and minorities. Canada’s status as a bilingual nation from coast to coast to coast is due in large part to the presence of official language minority communities. Highly qualified members of those communities have all the skills necessary to perform the duties of a senator, and many of them have expressed an interest in the job. Having candidates who represent linguistic and cultural minority communities is considered an important factor in the appointments process. The reform of the Senate must continue to take this cultural and linguistic reality into account to ensure greater diversity. Given all that, how does the government plan to ensure that the advisory board for Senate appointments truly considers the representation of linguistic minority communities in its selection criteria so that its recommendations accurately reflect the linguistic and cultural balance that characterizes our whole country?

Thank you, Senator Cormier. I hope that you are indeed in the beautiful town of Caraquet today. I am pleased to see you on the screen, and I look forward to seeing you this summer on the stunning Acadian Peninsula. I am entirely in agreement with you, and your example demonstrates the importance, in the context of nominating and appointing senators, of choosing people who reflect the linguistic duality of the country, but, especially, who represent minority communities. There are people in the Senate, like the Speaker pro tempore, Senator Gagné and many others, like you, Senator Cormier, who are doing a great job of reflecting the importance of official language minority communities. I am thinking, for example, of the Acadian community of Nova Scotia since the retirement of Senator Comeau, whom I liked very much. I often saw him on flights between Ottawa and Halifax. We recognize the importance of making sure these communities are properly represented as senators are appointed. The Prime Minister is absolutely willing to do that.

During discussions we had with Ms. Labelle — Huguette Labelle has a lot of experience in the area you talked about, and we see that in her professional background. I know that for her and her colleagues on the advisory boards for each province, this is an important reality that is given a high priority. When the Prime Minister receives lists of names, I know that he is concerned about the issue too. My House of Commons colleagues and I often take the time to remind our colleagues of the importance of reflecting this duality. Ultimately, as an Acadian like you, Senator Cormier, I fully recognize the guardian role that the Senate has played and the improvements it has tried to make over the years, sometimes even at difficult moments in its history. These are values that we want to enhance and celebrate, not weaken.

Thank you for that answer, minister. As you know, francophones are present throughout the entire country, and yet there are currently no francophone senators from west of Winnipeg. Also, you talked about Acadia, so I’m sure my colleagues won’t mind me asking you this question. You are aware of the Acadian people’s contributions in building our country and their work in the upper chamber since the creation of Canada. As an Acadian, I am very concerned about the fact that New Brunswick is the only Atlantic province that has any Acadian representatives in the Senate. As you yourself mentioned, since Senator Comeau retired, the Acadian community in Nova Scotia is no longer represented. Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland and Labrador have very vibrant, very active francophone and Acadian communities, and these communities have a great deal of expertise. How does the government intend to ensure that when the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments makes its recommendations to the Prime Minister, it quickly corrects this situation by recommending the appointment of Acadians from these provinces to the upper chamber as soon as possible?

Madam Chair, I very much share the views expressed by Senator Cormier. Since it is an independent advisory board, it is not up to the government to give it any specific direction. However, we have spoken with Ms. Labelle, the chair of the advisory board, regarding the importance of the reality you just so wisely pointed out.

I am confident that we may see other Acadians appointed to the Senate, and that they will not just come from our province of New Brunswick, but from other provinces as well. I was very proud when an Acadian was appointed Lieutenant Governor of Nova Scotia for the first time. This position dates back to an era when Acadia was going through some very difficult times. No one could have predicted that Lieutenant Governor LeBlanc would hold this position in Nova Scotia today. It was a first and an important moment. I pointed this out to cabinet when we discussed this appointment.

Senator Cormier, I am very confident that your wish, which is shared by many other people in our community, will come true in the next few rounds of appointments.

Thank you, minister.

Madam Chair, I am going to yield the balance of my time to Senator Galvez.

Madam Chair, I thank the senator for the question. I think our government is always interested in ways to make Parliament more effective and to modernize Canada’s Parliament. Obviously, I’m speaking of both houses. The Prime Minister believes that a more independent Senate would offer a legislative scrutiny not only in the strict context of legislative review but in public policy conversations as well and in the accountability of the government to both houses of Parliament — an opportunity for a renewed, more invigorated role.

We certainly believe that has happened. That has been one of the positive evolutions. But as former Prime Minister Stephen Harper found out, senator, the ability of a government to change the fundamental nature of the Senate is very limited by virtue of that reference that Prime Minister Harper sent to the Supreme Court of Canada. We’re certainly not interested in opening up a constitutional discussion with provinces. We don’t think that’s a priority that Canadians would like their government to focus on. They want us to focus on the context of the pandemic and the support in terms of an economic recovery, so that’s where we’re focused.

But absent constitutional change, we would welcome, as a government, any suggestions, any advice that comes from the Senate on where the government could play a supportive role in the evolution of your chamber. We think it should be in the hands of senators, but if there were, because of a legislative measure — and today’s discussion on Bill S-4 is a good example — other opportunities for the government to play a supportive role in working with Senate leaders and with senators themselves, we would be wide open to doing so.

We don’t have a master plan for some constitutional change, not at all, but if there were incremental improvements in which the government could be a constructive partner with the Senate, within the existing constitutional framework, we obviously would welcome that opportunity and are always available to work with all honourable senators.

Minister LeBlanc, you’re a highly experienced parliamentarian. You know very well that we’ve had terms like Leader of the Government, Leader of the Opposition, whip and recognized party in the Senate and in many other parliamentary systems and jurisdictions for decades and sometimes for centuries. Yet one of the main features of Bill S-4 is the entrenching of brand new nomenclature in the Parliament of Canada Act, our governing legislation, and basically brand new terms, historically speaking, in Bill S-4 — terms like liaison, Government Representative, facilitator and parliamentary group. These terms were only first used by some in the Senate a few years ago, since the Trudeau government has been in power.

Minister LeBlanc, in Bill S-4, none of these brand new terms are even defined in this bill. As such, if this bill passes, the Parliament of Canada Act would not include definitions for any of those terms. Under Bill S-4, senators appointed to these undefined positions and in unnamed parliamentary groups will receive significant amounts of taxpayers’ dollars on an ongoing basis.

Minister LeBlanc, you are a lawyer, a 20-year parliamentarian and legislator and the minister responsible for this bill. Why aren’t any of those terms defined in Bill S-4? And what is your government going to do to fix this?

Madam Chair, through you to Senator Batters, thank you for the question. We believe that the Senate is perfectly capable itself to define those roles in their own rules and for the people who are ultimately appointed to those functions to decide in collaboration with different groups in the Senate and their colleagues in a particular group, for example, the kind of roles that they want to undertake and the work that they want to do. We didn’t think it would be particularly prescriptive to have job descriptions or lists of particular functions. We think that these roles will evolve in a way that senators and the Senate itself see as appropriate.

Obviously, if the Senate wants to amend the legislation and there’s a consensus in the Senate to add some particular detail into those functions, we don’t particularly have a strong view on that. We were told in the discussion with officials of the Department of Justice, for example, that traditionally the Senate itself and the occupants of those roles, based on convention and rules that prescribe the governance of the Senate and its various committees, for example, would be the best places for those precisions to be brought. If the Senate feels strongly or has strong views in that direction, obviously, we don’t have an overwhelming view ourselves.

All of these changes, ultimately, Senator Batters, apply to the Senate itself. As I said in my opening comments, we thought it was important to introduce this government bill in the Senate because it properly affects the functioning of the Senate the way the Senate wants to structure itself. My own view is that parliamentarians in the House of Commons should very much yield to the Senate the ability to decide how these things should be structured. We will wait to see what legislation the Senate ultimately adopts. My job, with our House leader, will be to see if we can work with other parties in the House of Commons to put the legislation through the House of Commons expeditiously.

Minister LeBlanc, you held a press conference in December 2015 to announce all of the Trudeau government changes in the “non-partisan” independent Senate.

You said that day:

. . . we are not going to appoint . . . a Senate whip because there will be no votes that will be subject to a Government Whip. We intend to keep this post vacant. So we see the start of a different relationship.

You then testified at the Senate Rules Committee three months later to try to explain all these newfangled changes to us. You reiterated that day:

The function of whip, which again is in the legislation, we won’t be whipping votes in the Senate. . . . Our instinct is we probably won’t appoint the whip function.

When pressed on who would carry out the administrative functions of the Government Whip, you replied, “We thought that those administrative functions could perhaps be assigned to the new deputy government representative.”

Yet, lo and behold, just weeks after that, the Trudeau government appointed a chief government Senate whip — I mean facilitator — I mean it’s tough to keep track. Then that new “non-partisan” independent government whip was former Senator Mitchell who had left the Senate Liberal caucus only two days earlier and who was just as partisan a Liberal as I am a Conservative — and that’s actually a good thing. And this whip position and its new Trudeau government-styled name is now further entrenched in Bill S-4.

Minister LeBlanc, why the major reversal on the vacant Senate whip for the Trudeau government so many months after that promise?

Through Madam Chair, thank you, senator, for the question. As you well know, Bill S-4 defines the Government Representative in the Senate, the Legislative Deputy to the Government Representative in the Senate and the Government Liaison in the Senate. That is the way we would propose those titles be styled. Whatever the particular nomenclature, if the Senate wants to amend it and change these titles, it’s in the hands of the Senate. We don’t think it’s constructive because it does not reflect what the Prime Minister, in his conversations with me, Senator Gold and others, spoke about, which is a more independent Senate that doesn’t have the government telling individual senators how they should vote on legislation. There are numerous examples in the last Parliament and this Parliament where legislation has been improved by the independent, learned voices in the Senate. We think this evolution is constructive and has been positive but, again, we would be governed by the views of the Senate.

However, I can tell you the Prime Minister, the House leader and I do not spend our time talking to senators about how they’re going to vote on particular pieces of legislation, as would a traditional whip function. Senator Gold participates in an appropriate way with the government in terms of understanding the way we can constructively and properly advance legislation important to the government and to Canadians. However, in no way, from my conversations with him — and I know it’s the same for the Prime Minister — is there a discussion around how we can convince certain senators to vote in certain ways on particular bills. That traditional whip function is left to the good judgment of senators, and I would think we’ve had some success in that.

Perhaps your question could be asked at one of the Question Periods that Senator Gold loves. It would be an interesting question to ask him because he is much more involved, obviously, in these daily conversations than I am. However, in no context are we purporting to bring back that particular function. That’s why I would have you note that the name has changed appropriately, we believe.

Minister LeBlanc, when you were actually asked about the Senate structure for Question Period in that 2015 press conference, you said, “They could go to a series of written questions.”

If they decided that from time to time they wanted ministers to go and participate in a Committee of the Whole or some other structure, we would be open to that conversation.

We’re open to figuring out a way that works for them, but there will not be the traditional government leader who was a minister who answered.

“We don’t want it to be a carbon copy of what’s down the hall.”

Minister, the Trudeau government’s attitude toward the Senate and accountability can be looked at as dismissive, much like we’re a middling government department and not an equal and complementary chamber of Parliament. The government Senate leader does not have a permanent seat at the cabinet table. He sometimes cannot answer questions in Question Period, opting instead to give delayed answers from your department, minister, that routinely take six to eight months. The Trudeau government has told us which ministers we can have for Senate Question Period and when they will appear, and it’s usually not when they have hot files in their portfolios.

In that initial press conference in December 2015, you indicated that the Prime Minister would not appoint a Senate government leader for another month or month and a half — it took five months, but bygones. In his Bill S-4 speech, former government Senate leader Senator Harder said the changes in Bill S-4 were the result of alignment between you as the minister and the government Senate leader. However, shouldn’t that alignment instead rightfully be between the government Senate leader and the Prime Minister? Now we’re enshrining this potentially dysfunctional relationship in the bill before us. When will this Trudeau government show the Senate more respect on this accountability aspect so we can do our best work for Canadians?

It will not be a surprise that I have a different view from that of Senator Batters in terms of our respect for the Senate. I would have you note that Mr. Harper, when he was Prime Minister, also had at some point a government leader — as he called it — who was not a cabinet minister. We think we have a function that’s respectful and appropriate. We think Senator Gold does very good and important work for Canadians. We’re proud of these changes. I don’t share the pessimism of Senator Batters. I think our experiment has been very appropriate and constructive for Canadians, and we think that the Senate has done and will continue to do very important work.

It shouldn’t surprise you that I don’t share her pessimism at all.

Thank you, minister, for being with us today. I join all my colleagues in wishing you continued good health.

I was appointed to the Senate, along with six other colleagues, in April of 2016 as the first seven independent senators. We have been eagerly anticipating this legislation and really welcome it. But even in the short time that I have been a member of the Senate, we’ve seen the evolution of more groups. We are now three groups, along with the government and the opposition. Why does your amendment reference only three groups, along with the government and opposition, when it is completely likely that more groups will evolve? Will we then have to deal with another amendment to the amendment? What is your thinking behind that?

Madam Chair , through you, senator, thank you for the question and for your service to Canada. As has been noted in our discussion this afternoon, in conversations with various leaders in the Senate, we arrived at the number three because we thought it might, in terms of other groups in the Senate, achieve an appropriate consensus. But once again, senator, if the Senate itself decides to amend this legislation, we don’t particularly have overwhelming views on what the right balance is. We thought that would achieve a consensus. We hope it has. But if senators feel strongly that there’s a better way to do this, we would obviously be open to those conversations. That’s why we thought — as I noted earlier — it would be appropriate and respectful to have the legislation introduced in the Senate. We look forward to seeing how it comes out of the third reading stage in your chamber.

Obviously, there was a concern by a number of senators to not — and this was expressed to me and to Senator Gold. I won’t speak for him, but he was in some of those conversations with me — inadvertently sort of encourage a fragmentation of different groups that had been forming over the last number of years. However, I’m way out of my lane now offering a view as to how the Senate could structure itself in the views of other senators. You, senator, and others are in a much better place to figure that out than would be a government minister or a member of the House of Commons. We will look forward to seeing the legislation and the shape it’s in when it comes out of the Senate, but it was designed to reflect the reality that currently exists and to look ahead.

In answer to your question, senator, it has taken long enough, as some of your colleagues noted earlier. From our view, we recognize it has taken too long to get to this point. We think it’s an incremental, positive step to reflect the current reality of the Senate, and there is certainly no plan on our side to have further legislation introduced in the next Parliament or two years from now. We hope that this will allow the Senate to structure itself in a way that it feels is appropriate but reflect the leadership roles that a number of senators are playing in Canada’s parliament.

Thank you for that answer. I’d like to support my colleague Senator Cormier in his question to you about continuing to reflect not just the diversity but, I would say, the hyper diversity of this country. We’re a big, old, beautiful and diverse country. There are layers upon layers of diversity in our country. I would urge you to consider these layers of diversity, particularly in the context of the narrative of anti-racism that we find ourselves in today. That’s not a question; it’s an aspiration. I hope you will take it to heart, and I hope we will see the results in your next appointments, that I assume will be soon, from what you’ve said. Thank you, minister.

Senator, thank you, and I won’t purport to answer the question other than to say that I agree entirely with your sentiment. I think you expressed it in a very compelling way. I wrote down the term “hyper diversity.” I think it’s a very good term. I like that term because I think that’s where the country is. All Canadians have been shocked by some recent examples of racist behaviour — xenophobia, Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. We’ve been touched by examples across the country, and all of us have endeavoured to do what we can to speak out against these circumstances. The kind of people, yourself being a terrific example, who are serving Canadians in this Senate now speak to this diversity.

I’m obviously partisan to your friend and my friend, Senator Cormier, who I have admired in his role as a leader in the Acadian cultural community for a long time. He even helped my stepson in a theatre production, some years ago at Memramcook, New Brunswick. His service to Canada’s diversity goes way back, as does yours, and I hope this is reflected on an ongoing basis. Thank you for stating it in such a compelling way, senator.

Thank you, minister, for coming with Privy Council officials to speak with us today. You’ve confirmed that the core issue at the heart of Bill S-4 is the ongoing modernization of the Senate of Canada. This bill formalized some incremental but important changes that have been undertaken in recent years since I became a senator. One welcome change was reflected briefly when the Senate became the second in the world to achieve gender parity — no longer. Hopefully the new appointments you’ve promised will return us to gender parity and greater diversity for the longer term.

Modernizing the Parliament of Canada Act was part of the government’s electoral platform in 2019, and clearly reflected in your mandate letter, to update the Parliament of Canada Act to reflect the Senate’s new non-partisan role. My questions build on the fact that you have been encouraged to seek opportunities to work across Parliament in the fulfillment of these commitments and to identify additional priorities.

Minister, you well appreciate that societies grow, expand and evolve, and institutions such as the Senate, as reluctant as some may be to accept it, must likewise modernize. Data and polling such as provided recently by Senator Dasko, show majority support for ongoing Senate reforms and greater independence. Given our current debate on how best to modernize the Senate, I want to focus on additional priorities in your mandate letter.

You have already indicated to us today that the changes in Bill S-4 are minimal and incremental. For those of us who wish that something as significant as opening the Parliament of Canada Act had produced more substantive increments, and believe that truly independent senators would make the best opposition, can we expect any further steps, perhaps more assertive, more visionary, moving forward? And, minister, can you please elaborate on the financial increases attached to the leadership roles listed in the legislation? Are these increases comparable, lower or higher, to allowances for equivalent roles in the House of Commons?

Thank you, senator, for the question. As I said, we decided, in consultation with your colleagues in the Senate, that this would be the best way to make an incremental improvement to reflect the current reality of the Senate with respect to these leadership roles. However, I certainly take from your question the suggestion that the government can continue to work with senators on ways that would, as we said earlier, be further incremental improvements to the way the Senate functions or organizes itself.

It would be a privilege for me, as a minister in the government, but working with Senator Gold and his colleagues, to work with you and others on ways to bring further greater transparency and accountability to the Senate and give the Senate what we think is a critical constitutional role. The privileged place that it has in Canadian public opinion is something we would share with all honourable senators, so a chance to work on that with you would be a privilege for us.

With respect to the specific question on leadership allowances, I am told and we believe that they reflect similar allowances that would exist, for example, in our place, in the other chamber. Perhaps Maia Welbourne or my colleagues from Privy Council could specifically answer the question around the allowances, the quantum, the amount.

Madam Chair, if you allow me, I will step out of the chamber, virtually, for about 15 seconds to vote virtually on the Budget Implementation Bill. We have 3 minutes and 14 seconds left in the House of Commons voting, and I would be happy to come back and answer a last question if you wish. However, Maia Welbourne can certainly provide the precision you need.

We will move to the next block of 10 minutes, or should we suspend for the time that —

We agree to suspend for the 15 seconds that it takes for the minister, or even if it takes him 45 seconds.

I tend to agree, Senator Plett, so unless a senator is opposed to suspending for, let’s say, one minute, to allow the minister to vote and then we will resume the last 10 minutes of questions. If you are opposed, say “no.”

We will suspend for one minute.

Thank you, minister, for being here with us, and I’m very pleased at the state of your good health. Now to my question: Only one of your House colleagues stood this week to deny unanimous consent for the BQ’s proposal to unilaterally declare Quebec a nation. The member accused all of you of abandoning core legal norms and my question follows from that, about legal norms in practice here in the Senate.

Recent court rulings have declared that the Senate is not subject to the Charter, and that the rights granted and protected for all Canadians do not hold for senators. Do you believe the Senate should be above the law?

Senator Wallin, thank you for the question and your kind words as well. I did take note of the Bloc Québécois attempt to get unanimous consent this week. I would have given my consent to that particular request. Again, I understand that there was not a consent and that’s one of the challenges in a virtual Parliament. I’m sitting in front of a screen in New Brunswick, trying to follow those proceedings, so we took note of that and I also took note that the Bloc Québécois and the House of Commons are purporting to bring that back in one of the supply days or on opposition day, and we’ll see that.

Senator, it is obviously a fundamental question you just asked: Do I think the Senate should be above the law? My instinctive answer is no, but, to be honest, I am not familiar with the specific case and how the Charter was applied in that circumstance to the Senate. Therefore I’m not in a position to offer up a significant view. If you’re interested in some sort of legal analysis, I would be happy to ask the Department of Justice to provide some detailed information, but I do not have a personal view on that because I’m not familiar at all with the particular case to which you refer.

I will yield the balance of my time to Senator Downe.

Minister LeBlanc, it’s wonderful to see you again and wonderful to see you looking so well, as others have indicated.

I’d like to return to the theme of diversity. We’re missing major voices in the Senate of Canada. We’re missing farmers, people who get up every day and work the land. We’re missing fishers, men and women who contribute so much to our economy.

We’re missing veterans and current members of the Canadian military. As you know, minister, most of the problems Veteran Affairs Canada hears are in the lower ranks, below the rank of warrant officer. We don’t need any generals, majors or colonels; we need the voices of enlisted men and women in the Senate.

As you know, as of 2018, agriculture was 7.4% of Canada’s GDP. One in eight jobs is in the agriculture and agri-food sector in Canada.

There are gaps. Only one or two of our members have experience in unions, which is a very important part of Canadian society. Given upcoming appointments, I would hope you would consider such gaps in the Senate’s representation as one of your key criteria on future appointments.

To my old friend Senator Downe, it is a privilege to see you, sir, from the great province of Prince Edward Island.

It won’t surprise you, Senator Downe, that I share your views about the exact types of people you described who can provide enormous perspectives and insights into legislative discussions and deliberations into the advancement of good public policy that benefits all Canadians.

It’s a constant challenge. I look around our chamber in the House of Commons, and some of those same people are probably not sufficiently represented there. That’s a function, obviously, of those who are elected in individual constituencies.

A conversation I’ve had with Madam Labelle, who chairs our independent advisory group, is that the onus should be on the advisory group and the Privy Council supporting the advisory group for making it known to many of the exact kinds of people you described that they should feel able to indicate their desire to serve Canadians in the Senate and their willingness to serve their province or territory, should they be appointed. We can all perhaps do a better job of encouraging such folks. There’s a vacancy I noticed, senator, in your own province of Prince Edward Island. I would hope you are encouraging some of those very people to submit their names.

We, as a government, need to do more to make people understand that you’re absolutely right: Those communities of interest are absolutely appropriate ones to have their voices represented in Canada’s upper house.

I would welcome any ideas you or others have as to how we can better balance those voices.

I hope in some of the upcoming appointments — I don’t think final decisions have been made — that some of that diversity can be reflected. But we can always do a better job, senator.

We are out of time for that block. Senator Klyne has the last five minutes.

Welcome, minister, and thank you for joining us. We’re grateful for your time.

My first question is along the lines of questions from my colleagues Senators Cormier, Omidvar and Downe.

In the last number of years, Indigenous representation in the Senate has been at a level unprecedented in history. It occurs to me that one advantage of an open and unbiased merit-based application and nomination system is that the process can attract strong candidates from many walks of life, maybe those who have not necessarily had deep involvement with a political party. For example, you might see candidates who do not meet the criteria but ultimately contribute to the makeup of a Senate that more closely represents Canada’s demographics for gender, race and broader representations within regions.

Could you comment on this point?

Thank you.

Senator, it shouldn’t surprise you that I share entirely your view that all of us can and should do everything we can to encourage all of those voices to apply to this independent process to indicate their willingness to serve. Certainly, I think I can speak for the government when I say that once the independent advisory group reviews the different applications and gives the Prime Minister a list of names, I know he is also focused on those very values that you properly described, as have a number of your colleagues in our conversation this afternoon.

There’s an opportunity for all of us to work to encourage those persons to indicate their desire to serve in the Senate, but as somebody sitting inside the cabinet and the government, if and when I were consulted, I would have views not dissimilar to yours or those of your colleagues who have spoken today, such as Senator Downe just before you and a number of others.

In your chamber, there are examples, as you said, of extraordinary Canadians who are serving Canada in a way that makes our Parliament a much better place, and our legislation and public policy that much stronger.

Insofar as anything we can do as a government to continue that important evolution, we would want to do everything we can.

Thank you, minister.

Second, one thing I appreciate about the current organization of the Senate is that no group has a majority, which encourages senators to work together, pragmatically. In my view, this leads to more than reaching out to build support for proposals; it leads to the vibrant and productive exchange of ideas and the need to make the case on substance. With no group having a majority, there is the reduction of dynamics of discipline and even the reduction of peer pressure or groupthink.

Do you have any thoughts on the risks of “majoritarianism” in the Senate, and how does this plurality of parliamentary groups address that risk?

Thank you for a very thoughtful question.

My insights into this are informed from the conversations I have had with a number of friends I’ve developed over the years who serve in the Senate with you. You’re right. As someone who follows these issues and is an observer of Senate deliberations and discussions around government legislation, we have seen a constructive process of improvement taking place in terms of legislation that ultimately gets adopted and proceeds to Royal Assent.

I’m not sure how appropriate it is for a member of the House of Commons to have views on different Senate groups. None of them is in a majority context at the present moment, but should one land in that particular context, I have every faith and confidence that the Senate as an institution will find the right and proper way to reflect that circumstance. But our job as a government is to receive the benefit of the deliberations of the Senate and to receive the important work done by committees of the Senate in terms of public policy studies. I know that my cabinet colleagues are very enthusiastic about their opportunities to appear before committees or to work with committees that prepare very important public policy reports.

That is a constant source of nourishment and improvement for us as a government, but I will watch with great interest how the Senate decides to structure itself according to those different groups. It’s a good question. I never actually thought about it, but I hope Senator Gold was squirming in his chair, because I’m sure he has thought about it.

Honourable senators, the minister has now been with us for 95 minutes. In conformity with the order of the Senate, I am now obliged to interrupt proceedings.

Minister, on behalf of all senators, thank you for joining us today to assist us with our work on the bill. I would also like to thank your officials.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

The Chair: Honourable senators, is it agreed that I report to the Senate that the witnesses have been heard?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Honourable senators, the sitting of the Senate is resumed.