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Senate’s Self-governance

Inquiry--Debate

October 18, 2022


Honourable senators, this item is adjourned in the name of Senator Pate, and I ask that — with leave of the Senate — following my intervention, the balance of her time to speak to this item be reserved.

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

Is it agreed, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

So ordered.

Honourable senators, I rise today to speak to Senator McPhedran’s Inquiry No. 6, which calls the attention of the Senate to various instruments and concepts to be explored as options for increasing accountability, transparency and fairness in the context of the Senate’s unique self‑governance. This is an important and timely discussion, and I would like to thank Senator McPhedran for bringing this forward.

In my remarks, the matter that I will be focusing upon is parliamentary privilege. I will be talking about it, colleagues, from my current position as a truly non-affiliated senator. In making the decision to sit unaffiliated, I was aware that it would not be a simple transition, and I am not surprised by the second-class status that non-affiliated senators must adopt. As this small collective of senators does not fall under the purview of one of the main groups, we do not enjoy the same consideration that the majority of our colleagues do. But why should I have to go to another group to be treated fairly?

This fact is regrettable, especially as we — senators — are the masters of our own domain. Ironically, the right for senators to be self-governing and self-adjudicating is one of the rights associated with parliamentary privilege. This was made clear by the Senate’s Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament when they put forward an important 2015 discussion paper on Canadian parliamentary privilege in the 21st century.

Within this paper, the Rules Committee affirms that one such privilege senators enjoy is the Senate’s collective right to regulate their own affairs related to their debates and proceedings, also known as exclusive cognizance.

Honourable senators, Canada’s Parliament adopted the concept of parliamentary privilege from the U.K. This can be found within section 18 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which reads:

The privileges, immunities, and powers to be held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Senate and by the House of Commons, and by the members thereof respectively, shall be such as are from time to time defined by Act of the Parliament of Canada, but so that any Act of the Parliament of Canada defining such privileges, immunities, and powers shall not confer any privileges, immunities, or powers exceeding those at the passing of such Act held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Commons House of Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and by the members thereof.

As such, it is clearly established that senators and members of Parliament are intended to enjoy similar privileges as those in the U.K.’s House of Commons.

Colleagues, when considering the broad umbrella of parliamentary privilege, there are a number of rights and immunities that fall under this purview. These privileges are broken down into two categories: corporate privileges and individual privileges. Corporate privileges include the right to regulate our own affairs and the power to discipline. Individual privileges include freedom of speech, freedom from arrest and civil actions and exemption from jury service. As I make my remarks, I would like to put forth and challenge each of you to contemplate whether our collective actions toward, and our treatment of, non-affiliated senators constitute an infringement of their privilege.

Honourable senators, during Canada’s Thirtieth Parliament, the Special Committee on Rights and Immunities of Members was struck to consider matters surrounding privilege. That committee found that the purpose of privilege was to allow members of the House of Commons to carry out their duties, as representatives of the electorate, without undue interference. Although it was a House committee, that assertion holds true for senators, as we hold the same privilege.

That exact sentiment is reflected in the very first line of the Rules Committee’s 2015 paper on parliamentary privilege, which stated:

Parliamentary privilege, an essential component of parliamentary democracy, exists to enable Parliament to function effectively and efficiently without undue impediment.

It is within this context that we must view privilege: as rights and immunities, held individually and collectively, that enable us to function as parliamentarians.

In 1999, the U.K. Joint Select Committee on Parliamentary Privilege considered the necessity test — a concept that holds that an exercise of privilege must be necessary for the contemporary conduct of parliamentary functions. That 1999 U.K. joint committee expressed necessity in terms of Parliament’s needs in order to fulfill its constitutional role. Parliament and its members need certain rights and legal protections in order to carry out their essential public duties of scrutinizing legislation, enacting laws and holding the executive to account.

In the Canadian context, the Supreme Court of Canada’s 2005 case, known as Canada (House of Commons) v. Vaid, considered the application of privilege. In his ruling, Justice Ian Binnie articulated a test of necessity that needs to be met to sustain a claim of privilege, focusing on the “purposive connection” that must exist between the claimed privilege and the fulfillment by the member, or the assembly, of its function as a legislative and deliberative body.

Yet, as our Rules Committee astutely pointed out in their 2015 paper, this necessity test is limited by its very design. As the committee wrote:

. . . the test provides a dynamic means to determine the parameters, or scope, of privilege. On the other hand, determining the contents and exercise of privilege remains the bastion of parliament, and parliamentarians.

Honourable senators, as members of our 2015 Rules Committee argued, determining the contents and exercise of privilege remains a bastion of parliamentarians, and determining this exercise must be “more in keeping with the ultimate accountability of a democratic legislature . . . .” In other words, as self-adjudicators, we define infringements of privilege.

As the Rules Committee’s 2015 paper on privilege states:

The Committee posits that the exercise of parliamentary privilege should . . . “be informed not only by history, but by a vision of the relationship between the legislative branch and its constituents that is in keeping with the democratic values of today and that is responsive to public expectations for accountability, transparency, natural justice and respect for human rights.”

Colleagues, to further this critical point of how we view and approach privilege, I would like to refer to a 2012 letter that was jointly written by five Canadian senators to New Zealand’s House Privileges Committee. In that letter, the Canadian senators spoke of the “living tree” doctrine, used in constitutional interpretation, in keeping with a view that sees parliamentary privilege not as static and immutable, but as an adaptable component of Parliament designed to better ensure its ability to function properly and effectively — with minimum infringement on the legitimate rights of others.

Honourable senators, it is this dynamic, living-tree view of privilege that is needed to ensure that infringements are duly addressed when we parliamentarians become unable to fulfill our senatorial duties due to forces outside of our control. For it is forces and decisions beyond the control of non-affiliated senators, in which they have no voice, that are working to place non-affiliated senators in a place of severe deficit. I would like to bring some of these barriers to light for all to know.

Non-affiliated senators do not have a presence at scroll that allows them to be forceful advocates. While we’re very grateful to our officials from the Chamber Operations and Procedure Office who convey our speaking intentions at scroll meetings, we do not have an equitable seat at the table, wherein non-affiliated senators’ items are forcefully spoken for as is done by each group or caucus’s scroll representative. Similarly, non-affiliated senators are not granted slots to make Senators’ Statements. We must rely on members of the established groups to cede their time to us. The same is true for ministerial Question Period, where non-affiliated senators are not given an equal opportunity to question the government and hold them to account. On multiple occasions, non-affiliated senators have requested a spot to speak but have not been called upon to ask a question before time expired.

Non-affiliated senators are also not consulted with or informed of decisions taken at leaders’ meetings. While these are informal and ad hoc, they result in consequential decisions for the Senate, including everything from programming motions to decisions surrounding hybrid sittings. While most other senators have an indirect voice in these matters via their respective leaders, non-affiliated senators have no such voice. While most other senators are informed of the decisions taken on these matters, non-affiliated senators are kept in the dark.

All of these matters converge in a very profound way to keep a very small collective of senators consistently unprepared and ill‑advised on Senate sittings. They have also proven to be a dangerous barrier in representing those we are appointed to serve.

By not being able to equitably participate in Senate proceedings and decision-making processes, as well as being unable to participate equitably in meaningfully holding the government to account via ministerial Question Period, the untenable situation non-affiliated senators are confronted with has come to represent a serious infringement on our collective privilege as it has on numerous occasions had an adverse impact on our ability to fulfill our senatorial duties.

Honourable senators, as our Rules Committee indicated in a 2015 paper on parliamentary privilege:

. . . to properly and effectively perform parliamentary and representative functions, a member must be able to operate without fear of undue interference or . . . obstruction . . .

The committee expanded on this to say that while it is impossible to codify all such instances, any attempts to obstruct, impede, interfere, intimidate or otherwise bother parliamentarians are often considered to be breaches of privilege. The Rules Committee’s 2015 paper went to indicate:

It goes without saying that parliamentarians must be able to function in a climate free from obstruction, interference, and intimidation in order to serve effectively.

Our Rules Committee further wrote:

With respect to non-physical acts that can be considered obstruction . . . the Subcommittee is of the opinion that procedures should exist and be enforced to ensure that the dignity of Parliament is not undermined.

Honourable senators, I ask you again to reflect on the minority voice of the non-affiliated senators and whether the status quo is acceptable. For if it is not, it’s incumbent on senators, as masters of our own domain, to challenge such injustice.

I will close with more wise words from the Senate Rules Committee’s 2015 paper:

It is expected that Parliament will be transparent, accessible, and accountable to the public, and reflect contemporary norms of natural justice and procedural fairness.

Canadians expect Parliament to conduct itself in a manner appropriate to its role. A contemporary, Canadian interpretation of parliamentary privilege can help facilitate and protect the work of parliamentarians, while helping to instil pride in the institution throughout Canada and the Commonwealth.

[Editor’s Note: Senator McCallum spoke in Cree.]

Thank you.

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

Senator McCallum, Senator Plett wishes to ask a question but your time has expired. Are you asking for five minutes to answer a question?

Yes.

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

Is leave granted, honourable senators?

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition) [ - ]

Thank you, Senator McCallum, for your speech. I want to phrase this question properly. Before we had this — I don’t know whether I should call it a shambles of a Senate that we have now, with all these different groups instead of us being back in the good old days when we had two political parties here. Even during those days, Senator McCallum, we did have independent senators or non-affiliated senators, and those non-affiliated senators typically would go and they would be, not under the umbrella of the government, but they would deal with the government leader. I think Senator Martin would agree with me. When she was the deputy leader back under Claude Carignan, every day she would deal with some of these non-affiliated senators and make sure they got speaking slots, they got to ask questions and they got to make their speeches.

What I find strange, Senator McCallum is that, first of all, you’re under the same title as our government leader and deputy leader. They’re also non-affiliated, so I think you should have at least the same rights as they have, since you are under the same umbrella. But tell me, Senator McCallum, what is the answer? If you get what you are asking for, it would seem to me that you would have a caucus of non-affiliated senators. We already have three or maybe four caucuses of non-affiliated or independent or these kinds of senators. Now, are you suggesting that we have one more and that you form a group of non-affiliated senators? Is that what you would suggest is the answer for this?

Thank you for your question. We have talked about this, and when I look at modernization of the Senate, which everyone is talking about and was already on the floor when I came here, my understanding was that eventually everyone would be non-affiliated and that there would be no caucuses and that’s where this chamber was going. It would be a chamber of elders, and it would be run differently. That is a question that I had put. What is the best way to address this, since we are self-governing?

With the process that’s in place toward change, I don’t see this moving toward change. I just see groups that are entrenching themselves further into caucus-like behaviour. If we had more senators, I believe there would be more senators coming in non‑affiliated. We don’t know. It’s so fluid that it’s difficult to say what we would do, but it’s unacceptable for me to be marginalized in the way that I am.

I did this because I need to be more than what I am right now. I was able to bring a lot of issues to the floor for Indigenous people and for First Nations, because that’s who I work for, and I notice that I’m doing that less and less. I’m going to the community more and trying to think about how I can bring their issues to the floor. I don’t know what to do. I just had to bring this forward. Hopefully, we will get help from people here who may know a way to move forward.

I realize that doesn’t answer your question. It’s difficult to discuss this, but it needed to be brought to the floor. We need to come up with a solution because I’m not willing to sit here, nor am I willing to join another party, just to be able to do what I should be doing. Thank you.

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

Senator Plett, we’re out of time.

Senator Plett [ - ]

Your Honour, if I could, I will enter the debate for five minutes to put some things on the record, if that’s all right. Of course, then it will go back in the name of Senator Pate, I believe.

Senator McCallum, first, again, thank you for your speech. I agree with you. I don’t necessarily agree with the way our Senate is set up — I just flat out don’t. I believe in the old Senate that we had. In that Senate, there were senators like you, who were non-affiliated, and it worked fine. We didn’t have four or five caucuses that all claimed to be the same thing: that all claimed to be independent. Only one caucus is proud enough to say they are Conservative. Even the Liberals have decided that they need to have a different title than what they used to have, although they are still there as a Liberal caucus. As my good friend and cousin Senator Harder has said, he’s a progressive. He actually suggested he might be a progressive conservative. I’m not sure if that was said in confidence — if it was, Senator Harder, then I apologize.

Nevertheless, Senator McCallum, you are absolutely correct that you need to be treated with the same degree of respect as every other senator in this place. So does Senator McPhedran, Senator Shugart and our newly appointed senator today, Senator Osler. Right now, you are a caucus of seven.

Although our leader is looking at me like who are the seven, he considers himself to be non-affiliated, so he’s part of your caucus. He should be taking you under his wing and treating you like a member of his caucus because he’s not a Liberal. He’s a representative of the government, but he isn’t a Liberal. I find that strange. That is why we call him “leader,” because we believe he’s been appointed to be the leader. Nevertheless, you haven’t been. Yet, here you find yourself wanting to do things.

Some of the caucuses — maybe all of them — have taken one or more of you at least partially under our wing to give you a committee spot. Both Senator McPhedran and Senator Brazeau are part of that through our caucus. So we have, in part, done our bit, but it’s not enough.

How many spots should you get? I’m not sure how many spots you should get. How often should you get to ask a question? I’m not sure, but I do fervently believe — and I do not want to be disparaging here to our leader and our deputy leader — that you should fall under the umbrella of the leader and the deputy leader. That is the way things used to be in the good old days. There was some “good” in the good old days.

This experiment that the Prime Minister initiated a few years ago has created a number of difficulties. More and more are cropping up right now, and you are not given the opportunity to fulfill your role. You specifically, Senator McCallum, have made it very clear what your passions are in this chamber. You have a constituency that you represent in this chamber, but you aren’t able to fulfill your duties properly unless you join a caucus. So you joined a caucus, but that didn’t work.

You are now non-affiliated again — I think that is correct — and with that, you should have that right. You should be able to make a Senator’s Statement — not every day, maybe not even every week, but you should certainly be able to do so. Furthermore, you shouldn’t have to come to a Conservative, or one of the other caucuses, to ask for a spot. You should be given a spot. I support that. I’m just not sure that there’s a clear answer to your dilemma, unless the government does what I think they should do, which is to take you completely under their umbrella and say, “You are part of our group, our caucus. We will make sure that you can properly represent your constituency,” because that is important.

This is a chamber that is supposed to be working for minorities, not just majorities. Yet, we find ourselves pretty close to being one of the lower groups here. We are still the second largest, and hopefully soon — I was going to say “fortunately” soon — will become much larger, but we don’t know for sure when the election will be.

Nevertheless, Senator McCallum, I support what you suggest. If there is anything that we, as a Conservative caucus, can do to ensure that you receive the treatment and respect that you deserve, our door is open. I will stand in this chamber and support that over and over. We may not agree on issues, Senator McCallum, but the one thing I have said in the past is that I will defend to the death your right to have your opinions, as I hope you would for me to have mine. They may not line up, but we do agree on this one thing.

I don’t often have a drink, but I had one a few months ago with an individual who is in the Senate. I won’t name any names, but he is certainly a senator who, for most of our lives, would have been in the far opposite spectrum. However, he invited me out to have a glass of wine. We wanted to talk. He made the comment, “You know, Don, you and I definitely do not agree on the way to get to where we want to go, but we do agree on where we want to go. We are both passionate Canadians. We both believe strongly in where we’re going, it’s just a matter of how we get there.” I think the same thing could be said, Senator McCallum, about what you are trying to do.

I have spent much of my adult life working in the areas where you have lived most of your adult life. I see many of the problems. I know what you’re doing. I’m passionate about those issues, and I’m passionate about what you are trying to do in the Senate. It’s unfair that you are not able to get up in a timely way and speak. You do have our support. I don’t know what the answer is either, but I think you need to start by — and I’m going to put them on the spot here — going across to the Leader and Deputy Leader of the Government, and tell them, “Listen, we’re part of your caucus. You’re unaffiliated. We’re unaffiliated. We demand to have the same rights as you.” I will support you in that. Thank you very much, colleagues.

Hon. Ratna Omidvar [ - ]

I am curious about Senator Plett’s proposition. I don’t have as many years in the Senate as you do, but I know enough about the Senate, as it is constructed today, to understand that the government leader and his team have certain responsibilities. However, they do not have what the other groups have, which is the authority to make statements. They can always rise up and make statements, of course, but they don’t have the capacity, let’s say every day, like three members of your caucus or two members of our caucus.

More significantly, while the members of the Government Representative Office, or GRO, have ex officio status on committees — where the real work gets done, I think we can all agree — they don’t have a committee seat. I think that is what Senator McCallum is asking for. I have certainly heard both Senator McCallum and Senator McPhedran, whilst they were members of the ISG and whilst they were unaffiliated, rise up on many occasions —

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

Excuse me, Senator Omidvar. I apologize for interrupting you, but it seems we have reached the bewitching hour. It’s now 6 p.m., and rule 3-3(1) requires me to leave the chair until 8 p.m. unless it is agreed that we not see the clock. Is it agreed that we not see the clock?

The Hon. the Speaker [ - ]

The sitting is suspended until 8 p.m.

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