The Senate
Motion to Call Upon the Government to Introduce Legislation to Freeze the Sessional Allowances of Parliamentarians in Light of the Economic Situation and the Ongoing Pandemic--Debate Continued
November 3, 2020
Honourable senators, I will be more concise this time.
I rise to support without hesitation Motion No. 33 moved by Senator Moncion, who is calling on the government to introduce a bill to freeze the sessional allowances of parliamentarians in light of the pandemic. I would first like to thank the senator for taking the initiative on this delicate issue. Last winter, many of us were uncomfortable with the statutory salary increase we received in the midst of a pandemic that hit Canadians hard. Like many others, I donated this salary increase to charity, but I believe that Motion No. 33 is a stronger gesture and one that is required given that this crisis is continuing.
You are aware that the pandemic is taking a great toll. Millions of Canadians have lost their jobs and many have lost their businesses, which were the fruit of many years of work. The emergency aid that was provided cannot compensate for these losses. The second wave is hitting hard, and sectors of the economy have been shut down again. Jobs are increasingly at risk. In light of this situation, we senators, now more than ever before, are among the privileged. We don’t have to worry about keeping our jobs. We have a guaranteed annual income of $157,600 until we retire at the age of 75.
Some may say that that’s the case for many other high-income earners, but we are parliamentarians who are speaking publicly about the ravages of the pandemic and what the government should or shouldn’t do.
I therefore believe that we need to set an example and show solidarity beyond our individual commitments in our communities. A salary freeze would be a collective way of showing that we are part of the broader collective effort, that we aren’t blind to the difficulties facing Canadians. I reject the argument that such a freeze would be merely symbolic and therefore of little value given the scant savings that would be generated. Symbols are very important in politics, and the Senate spends hours and hours debating motions of all kinds that are highly symbolic. A small sacrifice in terms of our remuneration, while symbolic, could certainly help to enhance our credibility as an institution.
Not surprisingly, an Angus Reid poll conducted last May for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation found that 66% of respondents felt that politicians should have their salaries cut, given the economic situation. Many governments did not wait for polls to be conducted before taking action.
Jacinda Ardern, the wildly popular Prime Minister of New Zealand, has taken the lead. They did not freeze salaries; they cut them. She announced in mid-April that she, her cabinet and senior officials would cut their pay by 20% and that members’ salaries would be cut by 10% for six months. This is a pay cut of C$41,000 for the prime minister. She explained that it was important for the highest paid politicians to show leadership and to express solidarity with front-line workers and those who lost their jobs.
She said, and I quote:
If there was ever a time to close the gap between groups of people across New Zealand in different positions, it is now. I am responsible for the executive branch and this is where we can take action ... it is about showing solidarity in New Zealand’s time of need.
Senators will no doubt recall that this is the same Prime Minister who had the presence of mind to quickly close the borders of her country and protect her citizens from COVID-19. She also, in the wake of the Christchurch attack, appointed the first Maori woman to be the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
It took three months for these pay cuts to come into effect in New Zealand, which brought the salaries of ordinary members of parliament down to C$129,000. That was a total savings of $2.4 million.
A handful of other governments have done the same. The decision came from the highest political level. In India, the pay of ministers and the Prime Minister was reduced by 30% for a year. In Japan, the party in power and the opposition agreed to reduce parliamentarians’ salaries by 20% for a year. South Africa, Kenya, Malta, Singapore and Malaysia made similar efforts.
The Senate of Canada could quite simply follow the recent example of Alberta Premier Jason Kenney who, just over a year ago, reduced his salary by 10% in response to the serious economic difficulties being faced by his province. The salaries of Alberta parliamentarians were reduced by 5%. That was the right thing to do under the circumstances.
Why would it be any different for federal parliamentarians? Times are tough for Canadians. Why not do our part? Thank you.
I actually have two questions, if there’s time enough.
I’m wondering if you’re concerned that this motion doesn’t seem to be in line with what the government is currently doing. For example, I was in the Senate when the 2008 financial crisis hit, and the government took action in 2010 to reduce expenditures. The Senate and senators gladly participated in that.
But the current government is doing the reverse. They’re expending money, and they’re urging consumers to spend more money. Why would the Senate do this in isolation from anywhere else in the government, other than it looks like we’re grandstanding and doing it for cheap applause from those who are always critical of politicians and, in effect, it devalues politicians? Are you concerned about that?
You’re right that it’s not an easy topic. Yes, it can be seen by some as grandstanding. However, I think — I would have hoped, to be very frank — that the government itself would have asked for a sacrifice by parliamentarians, as was done in other countries, which I quoted. Those cuts came from the presidents and prime ministers.
I would rather the government take action, but if the government doesn’t take action, we should. Yes, we can certainly worry about how it will be received, but I’m a new senator so I don’t have your experience. For me, all of that contributes to trying to be a bit more in touch with Canadians who are suffering.
I realize it’s small and it’s in isolation, but it’s a gesture. The Senate is a place of symbolism. This is a symbol that we’re not just talking, but we’re ready to do something. It could be seen by many as not much, but it is something.
I really think it would be well received and worth doing. This will have to be voted on by the House of Commons, but we can certainly agree among ourselves.
Thank you very much for that thoughtful answer; I found it very informative.
No doubt you have heard me speak in the past about the lack of representation in the Senate. For example, almost all senators who have recently been appointed have university degrees — much higher than the Canadian average. Are we on the way to being an institution of the 1%, not really representing all Canadians?
For example, in the past I’ve highlighted that some of us have served in the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves, but we have nobody in the Senate who has worn the uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces full-time. Therefore, we have no veterans. We have no farmers — those who get up every day and earn their income from farming. We have many advocates for farmers: Senators Griffin, Rob Black and others. We also have no fishermen or fisherwomen. We certainly know we could use that expertise, given what’s going on in Canada today. The Senate is lacking those people.
I’m not sure of the financial situation of all senators, but is this a further indication of two things: we’re becoming an institute of 1% and we’re devaluing politicians? It’s very difficult for MPs to even have this discussion, because voters would get upset. I look back at some figures, and in 1970, a Federal Court judge was paid $28,000 a year — $10,000 more than a senator or MP in the same year.
In 2020, a Federal Court judge makes $314,000, which is $182,000 more than a senator. I don’t think anybody joins the Senate to get rich, but if we’re going to have a cross-section of Canadians — you indicated how the salary is high by any standard but that it has fallen behind over the years — will we make the institution so elite or frowned upon that it will be difficult to attract anyone who’s not already very well off, like the U.S. Congress and Senate, or someone who already has pensions from the private sector or government that they use to supplement their income?
Senator, you raise all kinds of very interesting questions.
First, regarding the representation in the Senate, I agree that some professions are more represented than others. However, I don’t know if it was ever different. When the Senate was established, it was even more in the realm of the privileged because they had to have $4,000 of property. At the time it was a lot of money.
I don’t think we’re as elitist as we were 150 years ago. However, you’re absolutely right to say that there are many professions, areas of expertise and specialties, that we do not have in the Senate. For me, it’s problematic on some topics.
The second point you raise about attracting expertise in the Senate, or people who earn a lot more money outside, I do not believe that serving politically is a way to become richer. We receive a decent salary. As you know, according to the Rules senators can have an outside job if they feel that what they receive is not enough.
So is it a good argument to say that we cannot have a freeze because our salaries are not going up as much as others? I’m not sure. I still believe that, at this point, the duration of the crisis has been much longer than we expected at the beginning. People are suffering, and we should participate.
I didn’t agree with the “why not the civil service?” argument raised last week. It’s not the same thing. In the civil service there are people who are paid less or more. There are people working around CERB who work very hard to get those cheques out, so there are different situations.
In New Zealand, they asked higher-ranking people in the public sector to take a pay cut.
You have raised very good points, but even though it’s not perfect and it’s a small gesture, we should do it.
Do you have a question, Senator Housakos?
Yes, a question.
I will ask Senator Miville-Dechêne to ask for more time.
Senator Miville-Dechêne, your time has expired. Are you requesting an additional five minutes?
I would like to answer the questions, but it depends on the will of the Senate.
Regarding another five minutes, is any senator opposed?
It is agreed.
Senator Miville-Dechêne, I appreciate your perspective on this issue. What I’m worried about is that this motion will actually breed excessive cynicism on the part of the public. Before coming to this place, I spent many years in what I call the “real world” in the private sector, in various businesses. I can tell you this: When I have spoken to my friends over the last few months, they’re suffering. The business community in this country, professionals who are working in the private sector are getting pay cuts to work from home. Many of them have been put on furlough. Businesses in general are down about 35%, on average, over the last few months. They’re feeling the pain, and eventually we’re going to feel the pain in our Treasury Board.
However, I’ll tell you this: If you’re working in the civil service, there’s a view right now festering in the country that there are two standards. Those working in the public service — senators, members of the House of Commons, bureaucrats — are privileged because they haven’t had a 35% hit. They haven’t been put on furlough. They have been working from home, remotely, and we’ve been keeping our salaries at par.
I think when we put forward a symbolic motion like this, it will breed cynicism. If we’re serious about it, it should apply across the board to all civil servants, obviously understanding the challenges of collective agreements. But don’t you think we should share the pain Canadians are feeling in the private sector and that it should spill over to us in the public sector?
Senator Housakos, I will answer in French, the language I am most proficient in.
I think you’re trying to muddy the waters. We’re talking about a salary freeze in the Senate, and you’re saying that we need to extend this to the entire public service.
You know perfectly well that not only are there collective agreements, but there are also labourers and maintenance people in the public service. The public service is more than what you’re picturing, with people who are not working hard from home. That’s not the public service. The public service has people who earn all different salaries and have all different working conditions.
If you’re talking about senior departmental officials, that’s a different story, but I don’t think you can compare the public service as a whole with senators, who earn more than the average Canadian salary. As such, I don’t think this is a valid argument.
I also don’t believe that the argument that this gesture will breed cynicism is a good one. What should we do, then? Should we hide in a corner and do nothing, because doing something is risky? I’m not inclined to believe that that is the way to go. Rather, I think we should try to do something and, at worst, we won’t convince anyone. I think a number of events have generated cynicism in the Senate lately. Unfortunately, there have been scandals that went on and on, and every time, the Senate comes back to these things. We could at least do something to contribute to the common good.
Senator Miville-Dechêne, you’re giving the impression that somehow people working in the private sector aren’t lower-class, lower-paid people. We don’t have middle-class people. We don’t have people that are working in the private sector below the national medium range of salaries in this country. Canadians are suffering in all realms. There are farmers who are suffering, along with truck drivers, busboys, waiters, small entrepreneurs and big entrepreneurs. Across the board there is a feeling of malaise and pain and insecurity in the private sector.
If you’re working in the public sector, it doesn’t matter if you’re in a high-paying job or a low-paying job, you have security and a pension. That in itself is what I’m talking about with the double standard.
Having a bunch of elite senators, many of whom are already collecting pensions from other public service involvement and collecting a salary to work in this institution and freezing our salaries, I think those in the private sector are going to find that a little bit humorous on their part.
Senator Miville-Dechêne, you have only 30 seconds left to answer.
I want to reassure Senator Housakos that I’m well aware of the tragedies happening throughout the private sector right now. I have no intention of ignoring that. What I was trying to do was answer your question, in which you suggested a wage freeze for the public sector as well. Clearly the private sector is suffering the most right now. We know that. Even so, the Premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, cut his own paycheque at a time when things were going poorly. That means it can be done.
