Honourable senators, the Senate is resolved into a Committee of the Whole on the subject matter of Bill C-4, An Act relating to certain measures in response to COVID-19.

Honourable senators, in a Committee of the Whole senators shall address the chair but need not stand. Under the Rules the speaking time is 10 minutes, including questions and answers, but, as ordered, if a senator does not use all of his or her time, the balance can be yielded to another senator. The committee will receive the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, and I would now invite them to enter, accompanied by their officials.

(Pursuant to the Order of the Senate, the Honourable Chrystia Freeland, the Honourable Carla Qualtrough and their officials were escorted to seats in the Senate chamber.)

Ministers, welcome to the Senate. I would ask you to introduce your officials and to make your opening remarks.

Honourable senators, I am pleased to join the debate on Bill C-4, An Act relating to certain measures in response to COVID-19. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that we are gathered here on unceded Algonquin land.

I’m joined today, of course, by Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Chrystia Freeland. We are joined by officials, Heather Sheehy, Associate Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development Canada; and Nick Leswick, Associate Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Finance Canada.

It’s a pleasure to be here with you all. I also want to thank Senator Dean for sponsoring this bill.

Honourable senators, since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic our priority has been to support workers and their families. We created a Canada Emergency Response Benefit and a Canada Emergency Student Benefit to help workers in Canada through difficult times. We also created thousands of jobs and training opportunities for young people, and ensured that the non-profit sector received support so that organizations could continue to help their communities.

To provide certainty and continuity, we’ve extended the CERB by an additional four weeks, from 24 to 28 weeks. While many Canadians have returned to the labour market, we know we need to continue to be vigilant and nimble in our efforts to support people as we continue to work together to stop the spread of this virus.

There’s no denying that the pandemic has highlighted the tremendous need for a modernized Employment Insurance program in Canada.

However, employment insurance, despite the imminent need for reform, is in fact the best tool at our disposal and exceeds any new system that might be hastily thrown together during a pandemic. That is why, in August, our government announced temporary changes to the EI system that will allow more Canadians to have access to it when the CERB ends. These changes that have already been made through regulation will help millions of Canadians meet the eligibility criteria in three ways.

For Canadians who still can’t qualify for EI, we are proposing to introduce a suite of three new benefits, via the legislation we have before us today. The Canada recovery benefit will support workers who have stopped working or had their income reduced by at least 50% due to COVID-19, and are not eligible for EI. It will provide eligible Canadians with $500 per week for up to 26 weeks, between September 27, 2020, and September 25, 2021. Workers must be actively looking for work, and just like the EI system, the new benefit will allow people to earn income from employment and self-employment while still receiving the benefit.

The second benefit is the Canada recovery sickness benefit. It will provide $500 per week for up to two weeks if workers are ill, are susceptible to becoming ill or must self-isolate for reasons related to COVID-19.

Finally, the Canada recovery caregiving benefit will provide $500 per week per household, for up to 26 weeks, for a worker who cannot work for more than 50% of the time because they have to care for a loved one due to school, daycare or day program closure.

The benefit would also be offered to workers who have to stay home because the person they have to take care of is sick or considered high risk by a health professional, or because their usual caregiver is not available because of COVID-19.

In order to ensure that federally regulated employees have access to job protective leave, the proposed amendments in part 2 of this legislation to the Canada Labour Code ensure access for these employees to the Canada recovery sickness and the Canada recovery caregiving benefit. This legislation also extends the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act. This act has made it possible for the federal government to help millions of Canadians and businesses get through this crisis through various emergency support programs like the CERB. A failure to extend the legislation could disrupt these payments with very harmful consequences for people’s lives, families and businesses.

This bill outlines an investment of $1.5 billion, for example, to the provinces and territories to support on-the-ground training services for Canadians. We all need to stay vigilant and keep up the efforts we’ve been doing to support workers and help stop the spread of COVID-19. I know it’s not easy, but we are all in this together.

Thank you, honourable senators. The Deputy Prime Minister and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you to both ministers for being here. Welcome.

My first question will be for the Finance Minister, Minister Freeland. Let me start off by congratulating you on your new role as Finance Minister and the confidence that the Prime Minister obviously has put in you.

Minister Freeland, in 2015, the Liberal Party’s election platform included a promise that a Liberal government would not use prorogation to avoid difficult political circumstances. On August 18, our Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau, broke that promise and shut down Parliament to stop committees investigating the WE scandal, which is also the reason why you are here before us today instead of your predecessor, Bill Morneau. Now we have a bill before us, Bill C-4, which could have easily fit into the government’s agenda prior to prorogation, and is different from Bill C-2, which we received just last week.

Minister, can you tell this chamber when officials began to work on the original bill, Bill C-2, and also if the Prime Minister truly consulted with all the opposition leaders prior to his Speech from the Throne, of which Bill C-2 was a product? Why did the bill have to be revised to take into account a demand from the NDP for sick leave? Were these theatrics part of the Trudeau’s government roll-out plan all along?

Thank you very much, senator, for the question. I would like to start my first comments here, before you all, just with one reflection that I had on Tuesday night, and indeed in the early hours of Wednesday morning when I was in the other place voting. It was actually a remarkably collegial, even friendly and convivial atmosphere. We joked across the aisle, and ultimately there was unanimous support for the bill.

That same night, as I’m sure everyone here is aware, there was an important debate happening in another country close to us. I will answer, I promise, senator. We are here for two hours. I just really —

I only have 10 minutes. I want an answer.

I understand. I would like to make a comment about Canadian democracy, senator, if I may. I’m about to finish.

What I reflected about then on that night was we have a democracy that works, and I was very grateful to everyone who was a part of that, and I’m grateful to all of you. In this time of really unprecedented crisis — the greatest crisis since the Second World War — I think it is worth all of us taking a moment to reflect on the extent to which our country has been able to come together across the whole country, setting aside partisanship to fight the coronavirus. I know everyone in this house is part of that, and I’m grateful. It is not inevitable. It’s possible to get this wrong. So thank you very much.

Now, senator, to your specific question —

One and a half minutes I would expect to be added to that.

I would be happy to answer your questions for an extra one and a half minutes, if the senators so desire.

Let me get to your questions. I’m afraid I disagree with some of the — I was going to say assumptions but, rather — assertions embedded in your question, senator.

The prorogation was a very appropriate response to entirely changed circumstances in our country and in the world. As the Prime Minister said, the Throne Speech that our government put forward immediately after the election was put forward in entirely different circumstances. Today we are facing a global pandemic which the entire world is responding to and which has caused an economic crisis that can only be compared to the Great Depression.

It is entirely appropriate, and indeed I would say democratically essential, for our government to have come forward to Canadians, to MPs and to senators with our plan to fight this crisis, and that is what we have done in the Throne Speech, and this is what, more specifically, we have put forward in the measures we are asking senators to weigh in on today.

I will make one further point. You mentioned sick leave specifically, senator. Our government has been clear for many months that we support two weeks of paid sick leave for all Canadians. I would like to thank Premier Horgan. Your own Premier Pallister has been very supportive, as has Premier Sandy Silver of the Yukon. Paid sick leave is essential at all times, and essential today more than ever, because if people cannot stay home when they are sick, if people have to choose between staying home and not buying groceries, they will go to work when they are unwell and we will not be able to fight the coronavirus. That is something our government is profoundly committed to and I’m glad we’ve been supported in the House.

Six minutes for one question, like your predecessor. Obviously, I have more questions for you, but I won’t get the answers so I’ll go to Minister Qualtrough and see if she will be a little more succinct with her answers.

Minister Qualtrough, my question concerns a young woman in Winnipeg whose situation was recently brought to my attention by her mother. Kristen was diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis at a very young age. She has done all she can to continue to work while dealing with a very debilitating disease. She receives a disability amount from the government which has not changed in years. Three recent job opportunities were cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic. When she applied for the CERB, she was told she did not qualify. I have provided Minister Vandal’s office with my correspondence with Kristen’s mother, and I expect him to provide me a response.

But minister, your government knowingly approved thousands of fraudulent claims. The Prime Minister said, “Let’s just get them out the door and we’ll collect it back later.” Yet this young woman could not get emergency support from her government. Why is that and what will you do, minister, to help Kristen?

Thank you, honourable senator, for the question. The CERB was intended for individuals who had lost work and lost their jobs because of COVID specifically as an income replacement mechanism. It was restricted to workers. That was a policy choice we made. The group we had decided intentionally to focus on was workers.

I don’t know enough about the fact pattern to give you more information in terms of other supports for this particular individual, but I’m happy to work with Minister Vandal to get you a fulsome response.

Given what you’ve said, she would not be eligible for CERB because she didn’t lose a job. However, we tried to embed in the new recovery benefits a reduced income aspect so you don’t need to have lost a job but you have to have had reduced income.

Again, I don’t know her personal circumstances, but I’m happy to work with Minister Vandal on an answer for you.

Minister Freeland, I’m going to try one more time.

The NDP has said it will prop up your government. CBC has called them your junior partner for the next three years. So two parties who each garnered fewer votes than the Conservatives in the last election are running the show. You are basically held hostage to the NDP’s demands. This is similar to the tail wagging the dog.

Can you tell us how much the sick leave promise will cost Canadians? Could you also tell us the cost of buying off the NDP with just 24 seats out of 338 in the House of Commons? What will it cost Canadians over the next three years?

Thank you for the question, senator. I am unaware of being a hostage. I am also unaware of being either a dog or a dog’s tail.

What I will say about our government and how we are governing at a time of a global pandemic when we hold a minority of the seats in Parliament is we always seek to put forward measures that will find support in the House.

As I said, I was delighted in the early hours of Wednesday morning that our measures received unanimous support from the Conservatives, the Bloc, the NDP and the Greens. I think that was a true show of national unity. I’ve already addressed the question of sick leave.

We will proceed to another 10 minutes.

Thank you, senator, for the important question. It’s a tricky conversation to have with the provinces in terms of the type of benefit and whether they will or will not claw it back from provincial social assistance payments. I’ve been moderately successful with CERB, but not wholly successful, and it frustrates me to no end. The provinces have chosen to claw back despite requests by myself and my colleagues, with our counterparts. We’ve engaged; we’re still having those conversations. We’re trying to explain these extraordinary times require not-so-tough behaviour on their part — that’s really unfair — but I couldn’t guarantee you, in all honesty, that provinces will not engage in that same behaviour with these benefits, but we’re working very hard. We’ve had some provinces already come out and say they won’t, like B.C., my own. I wish I could tell you we have gotten every province and territory on board but we haven’t.

Regarding the GBI, or livable income piece, this in no way precludes that conversation from happening. We are focused right now on emergency measures for workers, but there are important conversations that must be had around identified gaps in our social services, and we hope that this prompts those important conversations. I’m happy that you would — we’ll call upon you for your help.

Welcome to the Senate, ministers. I will ask you a very concrete question. Many young people I know have asked me about the difference between this new recovery benefit and the CERB. In fact, people see no difference. I have three questions about this. First, will you ask those who apply for this new benefit to provide proof that they have been looking for work? Second, what does the phrase “have not declined a reasonable offer to work” mean? As you know, it could be interpreted in many ways. Must a dancer or artist become a clerk or salesperson? All work has value, but what is meant by “reasonable”? Lastly, as in the case of the CERB, will students who work part-time be able to apply for this new recovery benefit?

Thank you very much. These are important questions. We have done our best to ensure that the economic recovery benefit program is the same as the employment insurance program. Naturally, the EI system is much more sophisticated. However, under the CERB, we did not ask applicants to look for work, that they be available for work, or that they not have refused a reasonable offer to work.

We included these criteria in the legislation and the attestation, but, honestly, it remains a benefit by attestation. Of course, at first we ask questions. However, the individual who answers these questions understands that from time to time we will verify the answers. For example, if you say that you are looking for work, you might receive a telephone call in a week’s time and be asked what jobs you applied for.

In short, we are doing our best. This program is much more robust than the CERB and is very similar to employment insurance, but it is not as complete as EI because of the limitations of the program, which is very new.

In terms of the part-time worker, if you have lost your job or your income has been reduced by 50% — whatever that income was — yes, you will be eligible for this benefit. Students cannot have undue restrictions on their availability to work. If they are studying full time, the expectation is that that is a significant undue restriction on their availability to work. So again, this is where the attestation comes in and people look at the reasonableness of the particular situation.

“A reasonable offer.” This is something that I was not able to explain to some young people I know. What does this consist of? Is it in your field of expertise? Is it something that pops up in your neighbourhood? What is it?

Pardon me, senator. The parallel term in the EI system is “just cause.” You cannot have refused a job offer without just cause. You cannot avoid looking for work without just cause. We found that quite restrictive, so we took a slightly broader approach of reasonableness that attempts to get at the individual circumstances of the person. What is reasonable for you might be slightly different from what is reasonable for me. It is a subjective criteria, and there is no jurisprudence on what is reasonable. But by putting in the four criteria that you have to be looking for a job, that you can’t have undue restrictions on your availability, and that you have to accept a job offer, we box in reasonableness, because somebody can look at it, and one would have to justify not having done so. It was our best attempt to individualize the responses that people made.

Thank you very much for your response, and I yield my time to the next ISG senator.

No. Not enough time.

Thank you, ministers. I want to thank you and your Liberal colleagues. You have done an outstanding job facing the worst health care crisis in 100 years and the worst financial problem since the end of the Second World War. You deserve our credit for the work you have done on behalf of Canadians through these difficult times. I know it has not been unanimous. The opposition parties have done their job and duty, and the media have occupied their responsibility and have pointed out the mistakes that were made. I’m sure those mistakes are taken into consideration as you go forward.

My first question pertains to a concern I heard on Prince Edward Island about the announcement made June 5 about the disability tax credit. I’ve heard from many seniors who quickly received the Old Age Security top-up — from couples who told me they did not actually need the money. They were taking it but they didn’t really need it. I’ve never heard that comment from those receiving the disability benefit. They have not received it yet. They’re wondering what the delay is and how this bill before us today will address that on an ongoing basis.

That particular supplement is not at all contemplated in the legislation before you. It was part of previous legislation. I’m proud of our government’s intentional thought around the disability lens in our decision-making in response to the pandemic. What I’m not proud of is the systemic gaps that our attempts to deliver directly to citizens with disabilities have revealed.

If you want to get money directly to seniors, the federal government can do that because you have OAS and we have GIS. If you want to get money directly to families, the federal government can do that because we have the Canada child benefit. We have no equivalent for the population of our citizens with disabilities, and it’s unacceptable. It has taken an enormous amount of time to call lists from different departments and to design a system to pull people out. Disability policy has been driven historically in this country by tax policy.

All that to say the payment is coming in the coming weeks, finally, for over a million people. It is unacceptable that it has taken this long, and because of our commitment in the Speech from the Throne, I’m happy to say it shouldn’t happen again.

Thank you, minister. I’ll pass that on to the Islanders who have asked me about that.

By the end of the month, senator, I promise you.

If not, I will give them your direct number.

Please do.

My next question is for the Minister of Finance. This significant effort to help Canadians over these difficult times is greatly appreciated in Prince Edward Island, where we have been impacted — particularly our tourism industry but also the export industry. Little things that sometimes you don’t think about, but we export a lot of frozen french fries. Restaurants are closed. That production continues but the sales are not there.

My question for the Minister of Finance is the repaying of all this cost. As you know — and you are new to your job and may not know — there has been an ongoing problem with overseas tax evasion and the fairness of the system. We are not in the position in this country where the leader of the country paid $750 in taxes last year, but we don’t want to undermine the credibility of the tax system by having some paying their full share and others not.

For years I’ve talked about the Canada Revenue Agency doing an outstanding job on domestic tax collection. They do a terrible job, in my opinion, on overseas tax evasion: Canadians hiding money overseas. We have had case after case of this. I just want to highlight the Panama Papers, which happened over four years ago. We had over 600 Canadians with money in the bank in Panama. Other countries have collected from their citizens who had $1.2 billion in the same bank: Germany, $182 million; Australia, $93 million; and Iceland, with a population of 300,000, $25 million.

This money is critical to pay for what you want to do for Canadians. It’s critical that we all pay our fair share. We all hear “We’re all in this together.” This is a way to prove we’re all in this together. Those other countries collected $1.2 billion. Canada has not collected a cent after four years.

Minister, how is that justifiable, let alone sustainable?

Thank you very much, senator, for the really important question, and I can’t resist saying I’m very aware of the problem for potato farmers. It’s one of the unexpected consequences of coronavirus, and I think we need to take care of them.

On the question of tax and tax evasion, you make a very important point. We are confronting, I think with admirable unity, a crisis unprecedented since the Second World War, and I think we’re doing a pretty good job as a country in confronting it together. But it is also the case that the economic impact is very uneven and, sadly, it is the most vulnerable and poorest people in our country who are bearing the heaviest burden of the coronavirus.

You’re also quite right that it is costing a lot of money to fight the virus. I guess as finance minister I would say this, but I believe it is particularly incumbent upon us to be very careful to ensure that we are spending intentionally and that everyone is paying their fair share. I think that’s what Canadians expect. I have already had a conversation with Minister Lebouthillier about tax evasion and tax havens, and I think there is more work to do.

As you are aware, in the Throne Speech we did speak about taxing internet giants. I think that is an area of unfairness to Canadian companies in particular. We spoke about something that was a platform commitment, which is a tax on stock options for executives at mature companies. But I think tax evasion, including foreign tax havens, definitely needs to be a part of our approach. I thank you for raising the question.

Thank you, minister. The problem with the Canada Revenue Agency — and the media have asked me for years if I looked at these files. They always want to push me: is it corruption? Is there something there? And I’ve always resisted that because you don’t want to get involved in conspiracy theories. But I must admit that when I see what’s happening year after year, I’m leaning toward thinking that there’s a serious problem there.

It was 14 years ago when this first came on the Canadian radar. There was one bank in Liechtenstein where 106 Canadians had $100 million in assets.

Now, the CRA worked very hard on that, and they identified money owing. They collected very little of the money owing, and nobody was ever charged or convicted. The CRA’s justification, according to the Auditor General, was they didn’t know how this worked; this taught them how it worked. But that’s not the case at all, because after that Liechtenstein situation we had a case in Switzerland with 900-and-some Canadians, and we had the Paradise Papers and the Panama Papers I referred to. This continues time after time after time. The government gave $1 billion to the CRA to help them. We find out that it goes for reorganization, for regularly scheduled salary increases. It doesn’t go where it’s needed.

As times get tougher, it’s going to be very difficult to keep the sense that we’re all in this together if we’re not. So I ask you to give whatever assistance, in your senior position as Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, to the CRA to solve these ongoing problems so Canadians can take comfort that we really are all in this together. Thank you, minister.

Message received, senator, and I agree with you. I do want to address, if I may, a couple of points in defence of the CRA.

Senators, if you support these measures, you will be supporting $90 million to support the CRA in the call centres that are so essential because they’re delivering so much of the support right now, and $61 million for further funding because of what they’re doing on COVID.

You heard already from Minister Qualtrough that this crisis has exposed some gaps that have been in our systems for a long time, such as our ability to deliver support to people with disabilities. I think something else the crisis has revealed to our government is how robust the CRA systems are when it comes to delivering support quickly to Canadians. I would like to thank the CRA and the people who work there for how quickly they were able to deliver support in the spring when people really needed it. That in no way negates your key point, with which I agree, and we do have to do better.

I totally agree with what the CRA is. I have always said they do an excellent job on domestic taxes, but there’s a problem with overseas tax collection. I hope you address that. Thank you.

Time will be shared between Senator Bovey and Senator Munson.

Welcome, ministers. It’s wonderful to see you here and to be here with you. The arts and artists in this country, as you know, have sustained us all through these really difficult times, despite the devastation that they have faced as a result of COVID. They are very grateful for the support they received through the wage subsidy and through CERB, but they know, and we know, their recovery will be long, perhaps years. Some disciplines are facing the loss of an entire generation of artists, given those who are leaving and the problems with training.

The continuing wage subsidy and recovery benefit are really much-needed lifelines for artists, arts workers, gig workers, solo artists and organizations. But the arts are approaching “a cliff edge,” as one arts administrator said to me yesterday. Their concern is qualifying. Calculating loss of revenue against last year’s revenues was clear, but now if they have to provide a further equivalent loss, it’s impossible because they’re at rock bottom. They’re not selling tickets. They have lost corporate support. They’ve lost donations. Fundraising has been cancelled, yet their overhead expenses are going up.

They’ve made it very clear to me that it’s critical that the level of support remains at 75% for the wage subsidy. My question is: Will it? Can you confirm that the sector will be consulted regarding the establishment of criteria and that the eligibility criteria will reflect the reality of their situation?

Thank you very much, senator, for the question. I very much agree with your core point. The crisis has affected different sectors in the economy very differently. My dad is a canola farmer, and coronavirus hasn’t really hurt canola farmers that much, at least not in the Peace Country. The same with forestry. Manufacturing has come back very strongly, and congratulations to our manufacturers. But other sectors like tourism, hospitality and cultural sectors have inevitably been hit harder. I think now is the moment when we have to start looking in a more targeted way at the harder-hit sectors.

When it comes to the cultural sector and the wage subsidy, we announced in the Throne Speech, as I’m sure you are aware, that the wage subsidy will now continue until the summer. That does mean the previously planned step-down is something that we need to look at. We need to look at how to calibrate it, given the fact that the program will be running longer. We are hard at work at that. It’s a very big and complicated program and we want to find ways to target the support more effectively. I can’t share with you details on exactly how we’re going to do it, but your point is well made and duly noted.

I can promise, of course, that we will consult with the cultural and other sectors as we do that work. I would draw your attention to the schedule before you, for which we are seeking your support. There are two specific line items to support the cultural sector: $17 million to support affected cultural heritage and sports organizations, and $50 million for the audio-visual industry, which, in particular, has been facing some problems getting the insurance they need in order to continue working.

I’ll cede my time to my colleague, but I just want to remind you that some of our major artists have lost career advancement, and Canada has lost a big step on the international stage because of the intransigence of some of our organizations.

Minister of Finance, in terms of collegiality, back in 1972 to 1974, Parliament worked kind of well in those days. I actually covered that a long time ago. Good social benefits happened at that time because of common sense.

I like Bill C-4, and I like the idea of benefits for jobless workers and the underemployed. I certainly support Bill C-4 very much. I like the tone of the Speech from the Throne.

This question is to Minister Qualtrough. I still worry about those who can’t ever find work or can’t find much work. Those are people with autism or intellectual disabilities. The rates indicate that 70 to 80% of them can’t find a job.

Minister Qualtrough, you know that the CASDA summit is coming up next week. The Speech from the Throne spoke about the disability benefit and the disability inclusion plan — they are all there. Part of that, to me, is a national autism strategy.

I only have about 10 months left in this place, if you count every day. I don’t want to leave; I like it so much. But I need to know, minister, is a national autism strategy still on the table with you and with Health Minister Hajdu?

Honourable senator, I can assure you 100% that it still is. Absolutely. I don’t know how much more elaboration you want, but I’m happy to have coffee and explain to you our thinking on the strategy. I can assure everyone in this place that the autism strategy will be front and centre for both the Health Minister and me. We would have been further under way on this — it’s in both our mandate letters — had COVID not consumed our lives, because it’s a very important thing.

That’s the best news I’ve heard today. It’s nice to smile, hear good news and commitment and move on with it.

This question was asked by another senator before, but I need to get total clarification on a part of the disability inclusion plan. It seems only yesterday that Bill C-20 acknowledged gaps at the Canada Revenue Agency in the Disability Tax Credit program. We’ve had studies in the Senate headed by Senator Chantal Petitclerc dealing with those gaps and eligibility in the Disability Tax Credit as a delivery mechanism for what you say is $600 that will come this month.

To what extent will the disability inclusion plan reform the Disability Tax Credit program?

Thank you, senator, for the question. Again, I don’t want to take up too much time, but, boy, could I.

You can.

We announced, in the Speech from the Throne, three elements of this disability inclusion plan. I would say it was a historic day for the disability movement in this country. One is a disability benefit which, like the GIS, will be a monthly income supplement for working-age Canadians with disabilities.

The second one is a national employment strategy for Canadians with disabilities, recognizing that it’s the largest barrier to inclusion faced, and it’s the number-one ground for discrimination complaints with the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

The third, although somewhat geeky and technical, is a complete overhaul of how the Government of Canada considers eligibility for disability-related programs and services. This means taking eligibility out of the tax system. This means a modern, functional understanding of disability. It is long overdue and it will be a lot of work, but it will change the way the government looks at our citizens with disabilities, 110%.

I appreciate those answers very much, and I will throw it back to Senator Bovey for the last two minutes.

Minister, I will go back to the arts, not surprisingly. We know there have been massive layoffs in the arts and culture sector, despite the really wonderful measures of the government, Canada Council and Heritage Canada. I applaud their flexibility.

Many of these layoffs, however, are no longer temporary. I’m devastated by the number of, I’m going to say, young people — they’re younger than me — who have been working in a field for 15, 20, 25 years and are now without work permanently. I’m wondering, with the wage subsidy extended, can these people be hired back by the organizations that have had to let them go out of fear of the subsidy? Would they then be qualified for the wage subsidy, having been hired back by the organization?

Yes, absolutely. One reason for extending the wage subsidy through the summer is to give organizations and businesses the confidence that it’s going to be there.

I hope, senator, that they will do precisely as you suggest and hire back people in anticipation of our getting rid of the coronavirus and knowing that they’re going to have the support to keep people on in this transition period.

They say they are afraid to.

Tell them the subsidy is there until the summer, so it’s safe.

My question is for the finance minister and has to do with the amount of the deficit.

A few days ago, the Parliamentary Budget Officer submitted a report that forecast a deficit of $328 billion, not including the announcements made in the Speech from the Throne.

Minister Morneau, meanwhile, had estimated the deficit at $343 billion, but according to the calculations of experts, which take into account the legislation announced in the Speech from the Throne, the amount of the deficit will vary between $416 billion and $443 billion, depending on the expert.

My question is as follows. What will Canada’s deficit be for 2020-21 taking into account the legislation announced in the Speech from the Throne?

Thank you for the question, senator. You provided an excellent summary of what Minister Morneau said in July’s economic update and of the new projections released this week by the Parliamentary Budget Officer. These are important and useful numbers for us.

With regard to the government’s new projections, in the throne speech, we promised to publish an update on Canada’s COVID-19 Economic Response Plan this fall. This update will describe the government’s economic and financial situation, provide financial projections and establish new Speech from the Throne implementation measures.

I won’t make any projections today since, as you know, the situation is very fluid with the second wave of COVID-19 and the decisions being made by the provinces, particularly Quebec and Ontario, to flatten the coronavirus curve. These decisions will most certainly have an impact.

I won’t make any projections today, but in the Speech from the Throne, we promised to provide an economic update.

Except now is the time when we’re trying to enact legislation that involves spending. Taking into account the measures announced to date, how many billions of dollars are we talking about?

I can give specific dollar amounts for the measures we are proposing today. With the new programs Minister Qualtrough is proposing, it will cost $24 billion. Changes to employment insurance will cost $10.2 billion and, according to the timeline in the bill, all the measures listed will cost $17 billion.

So that’s an additional $51 billion or so for the current measures. If I add that to what your former colleague, Minister Morneau, presented in July, when he was talking about $343 billion, that adds up to a deficit of about $400 billion for this year?

I need to clarify something. For the measures we are talking about today, the measures we are asking you to adopt, we are talking about $41 billion. For the sake of openness and transparency, I added the $10.2 billion we believe changes to employment insurance will cost, but that amount is not included in Bill C-4, which you will be voting on today.

So, all told, this adds $50 billion to Mr. Morneau’s total, which was $343 billion?

As I said, for today, we are talking about $41 billion, and let me repeat that I will not make any deficit projections today. That would not be prudent. I am the Minister of Finance, and I know that every word I say has an effect on the market for Canada.

Not to worry, the markets are closed at this hour.

Let me be clear; I want to be very specific and accurate.

I understand, but back in July, Minister Morneau had projected $343 billion. The Parliamentary Budget Officer’s figure is $328 billion. However, with the additional measures you’re announcing, we’re talking about $400 billion. I’m sure you spoke with Minister Morneau after he left. Did he leave you a note on his desk, suggesting you tell the Prime Minister to calm down, because we’re going to surpass $400 billion? Did you have any discussions with him about that?

Minister Morneau was an excellent colleague and I spoke with him often, or actually, I still speak with him often, especially in the last few weeks. However, you’re asking about something that is very important to Canadians, something that I’m very concerned about and has to do with our country’s fiscal situation. Perhaps I can reassure you somewhat by quoting the rating agency DBRS Morningstar, which has reaffirmed that our AAA credit rating is one of the best of any country in the world. Canadians need to understand that we are leaders.

Speaking of mandate letters, finance minister Bill Morneau’s letter mandated him to continue to build confidence in Canada’s economy by preserving our AAA credit rating. Does your mandate letter include the same?

The Prime Minister is in the process of writing the mandate letters for all of the new ministers. We shall see.

So, this could be suggested to him.

I will pass along your suggestion. If you want, I can cite what DBRS Morningstar wrote about the financial situation. DBRS Morningstar views the overall fiscal response positively, as the stimulus has been timely in delivery, temporary in design, and sufficient in size given the scale of the shock.

There was another Liberal premier in Quebec who said he wanted to have both hands on the wheel to stay on track. Prime Minister Trudeau seems to have his hands on the wheel, but he also has his foot on the gas and the pedal is stuck. He seems to have forgotten about brakes. When Mr. Morneau was finance minister, did he try to remind the Prime Minister that he can use the brake every once in a while? Will you tell him to pump the brakes and tell him that going full-speed ahead will not necessarily put Canada on the right track? When I was younger, I liked to ride bumper cars, and I would hit the gas and tear all over the place. That wasn’t a big deal, but he is the Prime Minister of Canada.

As I already said, I grew up on a farm and my father was a farmer. I started driving a truck when I was 12. I understand the importance of brakes and the accelerator. We have to manage both pedals to drive properly. As far as spending is concerned, I would like to say three things, if I may — No, I may not?

Perhaps later.

Welcome, ministers. I appreciate you being here and speaking on this bill. I will be asking questions on behalf of Senator Sinclair, who is not able to be here.

The first question is to the Deputy Prime Minister:

Minister, in the Speech from the Throne, we saw a shift from the government’s 2019 commitments to eliminate long-term boil water advisories on reserves by 2021. The new language was noncommittal in terms of a timeline.

Minister, it would be no exaggeration to say that Indigenous people have been living in a state of emergency in this country for a long time, with their health and well-being treated with less importance by the government and with their legal rights suppressed. When we see the resources, expediency and willpower the government brought to the COVID response when non-Indigenous peoples’ well-being is at risk, why aren’t we seeing that commitment and those results on basic human rights for our Indigenous people?

Thank you very much for the question. I do think all Canadians appreciate that it is a real outrage that there are some Canadians who don’t have safe drinking water where they live. That is why the commitment to end boil water advisories is so important for our government and for our country.

I hope people will understand that the very particular situation with the coronavirus has created some obstacles to acting. The coronavirus is a terrible reason for those obstacles, but the reason it had an impact on our action on boil water advisories is a good one because what we have seen with Indigenous leadership in this country during the coronavirus crisis has actually been magnificent. Indigenous leaders across the country on reserves acted really quickly and took tough measures to close entry to reserves to people who didn’t live there. I think it’s obvious why that would have an impact on work on the reserves, and that is regrettable, but the action itself is admirable and commendable.

I do want to take an opportunity for the whole country to appreciate how fantastically well Indigenous leaders and Indigenous people across the country, particularly on reserves, have responded to the coronavirus crisis. They’ve actually done better than non-Indigenous leadership. The result is that the coronavirus has been very effectively contained by Indigenous people acting themselves to protect themselves in their communities.

This is by no means inevitable. You can contrast what has happened on reserves in Canada, for example, with the very tragic experience of the Navajo Nation.

I agree with you on the boil water advisory. We need to act, but I think we spend, quite rightly, a lot of time talking about the tragedies, the discrimination and the systemic racism Indigenous people face in Canada, and the events in Joliette this week should make us do that even more.

But I think it’s equally important to take a moment sometimes to observe for the whole country the way that Indigenous leadership has stepped up in this crisis. I have been really admiring.

Thank you.

The second question would be for Minister Qualtrough. Minister, this question is specific to some Indigenous individuals’ and families’ financial contexts. This bill provides for three major benefit programs: the recovery benefit, the recovery sickness benefit and the recovery caregiving benefit.

To be eligible for these benefits, recipients must have had, for a 12-month period, income of at least $5,000. First, can you please confirm that Indigenous individuals would be eligible for these benefits if they had received at least that amount of tax-exempt income on a reserve? Second, in applying for the benefits, how can individuals in this situation be sure that such referenced income will continue to be understood by government as tax exempt? It’s a question on behalf of Senator Sinclair.

Thank you, senator, for the question on behalf of Senator Sinclair.

The answer to your first question, as I understand it, is yes, but I would like to confirm that really important point with Heather, our legislative guru.

Thank you, senator. The definition of income in Bill C-4 is identified in clause 8(3). It is the amount that would be identified as net income other than the CRB on the CRA forms. That is the definition that’s in the bill.

I would need to get back to the house on the specifics in terms of Indigenous income on reserve.

One of the flexibilities in the bill as currently written is for us to make regulatory amendments to broaden the definition of income. So if it’s not there, and perhaps it should be, then we can add it.

Minister Qualtrough, will the Government of Canada be communicating with Indigenous communities in culturally and linguistically appropriate ways to ensure that individuals and families are receiving the necessary information to access these benefits? Can you share any plans in that regard?

Thank you, senator. We have been working very closely in my department with the Minister of Indigenous Services and his team to ensure that information is shared in appropriate and respectful ways. I can’t give you more details other than that, unless Heather can, but I can certainly get you that information.

Thank you, Minister Freeland and Minister Qualtrough, for being with us today. I appreciate it.

My first question is for Minister Freeland. As you know, COVID-19 has exposed serious issues with how we support our seniors in long-term care. We know this is a Canada-wide problem.

Back in May, the Prime Minister said that the federal government would work with the provinces to ensure long-term care facilities are properly supported, whether that’s through “national standards” or “extra funding.” The Prime Minister also said that conversations about how we treat our seniors in Canada are necessary and will happen at the appropriate time.

Minister, this matter is urgent, as I’m sure you well recognize. More than 80% of Canada’s COVID-19-related deaths have been in long-term care facilities. That is double the OECD average.

Minister, can you tell us when the Prime Minister believes the appropriate time is for these conversations? Also, what mechanisms are in place at the federal level to track outbreaks and deaths in long-term care facilities?

Thank you for that really important question.

I agree with you, and I would hazard to say it is a truth universally acknowledged that one of the things coronavirus has exposed is neglect of our elders. I’m not ashamed to say that when I read the report from the Canadian Armed Forces I cried. It was terrible. I called my dad up and I told him I would take care of him.

So it cannot continue. It’s complicated, as I think everyone here knows, because this is an area of provincial responsibility, but I know that the provinces — the premiers — they share that anguish too. They are very committed to working with us, as we are with them, for this not to happen again.

The Speech from the Throne did make that commitment to work on national standards for long-term care facilities, and we believe that’s necessary. In the Safe Restart Agreement with the provinces, the federal government agreed to give $19 billion to the provinces for their restart after the spring. That includes $13 billion for health care and coronavirus-related efforts, PPE, testing and tracing and money for the health care system, so that’s some support as well.

As you are very aware, in the crisis the Canadian Armed Forces were there. I think all of us need to be grateful to them. The support that we committed to in the Throne Speech for personal support workers, I think, is also a very important element. It’s essential that we pay the people who take care of our seniors well and train them well and that they not need to work three different jobs to support themselves. That increases the risk.

I agree that you have identified an important problem. I’m not going to promise a solution tomorrow because that’s not credible and wouldn’t be true. But I do believe there is extreme collective goodwill in Canada to work on this, and we are.

How am I doing in my five minutes?

You still have a minute and a quarter.

Good. Thank you.

If could I just ask the second part of that question, if you might have the answer, minister: What mechanisms are in place at the federal level to track outbreaks and deaths in long-term care facilities?

We have, I would say, increasingly good data-sharing with the provinces. It’s work done directly by the provinces. But we’re sharing information certainly much more effectively than at the beginning of the crisis. I certainly get reports on that, as do other people in government.

Another important factor is the work that the Red Cross is doing in long-term care facilities, which gives us a further line of sight into what is happening.

I won’t say the tracking is perfect. It’s a lot better than it was at the beginning. I think we’re getting better at sharing information with each other — all of us — because we’ve learned that that helps the response.

Thank you to both ministers for being here. Before my first question to Minister Freeland, you mentioned forestry as being one of those sectors that’s recovering. I want to say that I was listening very carefully — I’m from British Columbia — and the forestry sector was largely overlooked in the Speech from the Throne. There were promises to plant trees and that it would play a role in the fight against climate change. But I know that in the second quarter of this year, they’ve lost 6,000 jobs. I just wanted to say on behalf of British Columbians and others who are impacted that that is sort of the stat that I’m working with.

The other preoccupation of mine is small businesses. I know you appreciate what Canadians do, but my understanding is that for small businesses, especially the small mom-and-pop businesses, the $40,000 CEBA loans had not been accessible to them if they had personal accounts.

There was a whole summer of inaction after it was announced by Minister Ng that you were working as quickly as possible. It’s my understanding that that is not yet available. I’m asking, on behalf of these very small, hard-working families because one day can make the difference for them. It’s been many months. Would you tell us when these businesses will be able to apply for the CEBA when they have personal accounts?

I will say one quick thing on forestry, because, with the softwood lumber negotiations when I was trade minister, forestry is something I have taken an interest in and worked on very hard. I’m sure you’re aware, senator, lumber prices are at extreme historic high levels right now. Because we did not agree to quotas when it comes to sales of Canadian lumber to the United States, Canadian forestry is able to take advantage of those record high prices. I just really admire and am grateful to all the amazing people who work in Canada’s softwood lumber industry.

That’s just a comment on forestry. There are other issues with the supply being limited, beetles and so on, but our forestry industry is astonishing. Prices are truly astonishing right now, and I’m glad they’re selling a lot into the U.S. market.

On small business, and CEBA in particular, I will say two things. Minister Ng and I are aware of the personal account issue. It is proving to be quite complex to have small businesses get loans through personal accounts, but that is something we are committed to making possible. We are working through that with the financial institutions through which the loans happen.

I agree with you: Every day is a painful day for a small business, but I can say through you to small businesses across the country that we are working on it. We are committed to getting there.

I would also say, as was said in the Speech from the Throne, we are committed to doing more on CEBA. The crisis continues. We are in a second wave. Our small businesses need support to get through it, and we’ll have more to say about that.

Thank you, minister.

Minister Qualtrough, it’s been since July 3 that your government announced the cancellation of its contracts with WE Charity’s real estate holding company, a shell company to administer hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money through the Canada Student Service Grant. The last update on the emergency spending that your government provided before shutting down Parliament stated that, following the termination of the delivery agreement with WE Charity, ESDC is considering alternate delivery mechanisms.

I’m curious about the alternate delivery mechanisms — if that has been determined, and if not, what is the plan forward — why not?

Thank you, senator, for the important question.

Our government has made the decision not to proceed with the Canada Student Service Grant program. Again, as announced in the Speech from the Throne, we are investing significantly in our youth employment and skills strategy, attempting to deal with the requests to continue to invest significantly in our young people. I’ll remind you that we had a $9-billion youth package as part of our emergency response. This was a big chunk of that; this was $1 billion of it.

The time is up. We have to move to the next block of 10 minutes.

Ministers, thank you for being here.

Potentially $1.5 billion could be granted to the provinces in support of professional training programs to help facilitate the economic recovery. What conditions will the federal government impose on the use of those funds? What accountability will be required? Have you budgeted for funding to be given to francophone institutions?

Thank you for the question. We decided to use existing contracts with the provinces and territories, or workforce development agreements and labour market development agreements.

Every time I meet with the other employment ministries across the country, they ask for more money for training. We all understand that training will be a pillar in all our efforts to restart the economy.

Distribution of this $1.5 billion will be done through a previously established formula in these contracts with the provinces and territories. That was the mechanism that helped get this money quickly to the provinces and territories. The criteria of these contracts will not change, but this will allow us to give more money to boost training efforts.

I do not have an answer to your question about training in French, but I could get back to you on that later.

Thank you. I will ask my second question in English. It is a supplementary question to Senator Miville-Dechêne’s question.

You talked about the test being subjective. How will you ensure the racist, sexist and ableist interpretations that have been revealed during this pandemic in the health, education, economic and legal systems overall do not mean too many continue to be left out or judged undeserving?

It’s such an important question. We have put a GBA+ lens on all of our COVID emergency response measures. We did a GBA+ analysis. We have looked at all of our measures through a disability-inclusion lens as well.

The best I can offer you is how sensitive we are and how robust our systems have become in doing these analyses. Yes, reasonableness is a subjective, individual criterion, so it will be incumbent upon us to ensure, when that is tested, that we continue to put the same amount of rigour in our analysis.

My next question concerns the amount of $1.7 billion earmarked for businesses. How will the monies under this program get to businesses that were not eligible for existing programs, especially small businesses and cooperatives?

Are you referring to the Canada Emergency Business Account? Which program?

The $1.7 billion that is in the actual — in Bill C-4, allocated to support businesses. How will these funds be allocated?

That depends on the line you are referring to.

Do you mean the alternate support for businesses?

Are you referring to the amount of $74 million?

Regardless of the amount, how is this money going to be getting to enterprises or —

It depends on the program. There are a number of different programs. If you are talking about the $74-million alternative support for businesses unable to access other emergency measures, it’s specified there that some of that goes through RDAs. We have found the RDAs to be really useful in getting money to some of the businesses that, for whatever reason, aren’t reached by other programs. So that’s one part of it.

Another is through the Community Futures Network of Canada. Another is through Futurpreneur Canada. Another is through the Innovation Assistance Program.

Thank you very much, ministers, for being here with us today.

My questions are for Minister Qualtrough. Not surprisingly, I had questions and concerns about Canadians living with disabilities. Also not surprisingly, Senator Munson asked those questions already, so thank you Senator Munson for the questions. Thank you, minister, for the commitments that you made and the answers. I’m looking forward to seeing it come to reality.

I do have a question on behalf of my colleague, Senator Frances Lankin, Ontario.

The question is as follows:

Minister Qualtrough, Part 2 of Bill C-4 amends the Canada Labour Code, amending the reasons for which an employee is entitled to take leave related to COVID-19. However, to gain the protections in this part of the Canada Labour Code, a worker must have a status as an employee. Gig workers or other independent contractors are not formally recognized as employees and do not enjoy the protection of these statutes.

The Minister of Labour has amended to explore issues relating to the gig economy and how gig workers are protected under the Canada Labour Code, and reference was also made to gig workers in the Speech from the Throne.

How are employees defined in the context of this bill? Will gig workers, typically defined as contractors, be excluded from this and not have access to these new forms of leave, or does the government have other mechanisms or programs in place for gig workers?

Excellent question. Thank you.

It’s no real secret that one of the things the COVID-19 pandemic revealed was gaps in our Employment Insurance system and the way we support workers in times of income loss. Gig workers are a glaring example of that. There is a lot going on right now around the definition of “gig worker” and whether gig workers should be legally defined as employees. If it walks like a duck, talks look a duck, looks like a duck, it’s a duck, no matter what you call it. That’s going on right now. Gig workers absolutely have access to these benefits. They were one of the primary drivers for us taking the CERB out of the EI stream to begin with so we could cover everybody. They will continue to be covered through the CRB.

With respect to Canada Labour Code protections, my understanding is that because they’re not, they won’t have their job protected if they take these leaves. We’re working on that. As you said, the Minister of Labour is working really hard to redefine “employee” in a more modern way to reflect how people work, but they absolutely have access to the benefit, all three of them.

My first question is for Minister Freeland. With Bill C-13, your government gave itself the power to spend without oversight or parliamentary approval on any funding related to the ongoing pandemic. Canadians saw what this lack of oversight in transparency meant. There were cases of CERB fraud. Many people were left without access to much-needed funds because their voices or interests were not echoed here in Parliament and, of course, the WE scandal, as someone mentioned.

In this bill, you appear to be asking to change the law to allow for only spending on these new benefits, the CRB, the recovery sickness benefit, the recovery caregiving benefit. Does this mean your government intends to forfeit its right, as spelled out in Bill C-13, to spend without oversight? Was that just an oversight or have you kept the right, through warrants or other mechanisms, to be able to spend without scrutiny?

We were quite deliberate in putting together Bill C-4 to be very clear with senators and MPs on which authorities we are seeking, so let me just lay that out right now. The PHENCPA, as we call it, provides authority to make payments from the Consolidated Revenue Fund for the itemized measures and amounts listed in the schedule to Bill C-4, and it is also a time-limited authority to December 31. Parliamentary approval would need to be sought for any increase in funds beyond what is laid out or for any extension in authorities beyond December 31.

Bill C-4 is only about emergency spending for the next three months. It has no effect on the regular appropriations process.

So only in the benefits as laid out?

Yes. We were deliberate and careful about laying out the schedule and then laying out the new three benefits that Minister Qualtrough has been speaking about.

My second question is for Minister Qualtrough and it concerns the self-employed workers who may have already collected CERB and may have done some other work on the side in the last six months to make ends meet. I’m thinking particularly of part-time workers, seasonal workers, the mom and pop business owners — like a husband and wife who run a business — hairdressers, Uber drivers and gig workers. Did the CERB they collected count toward the $38,000 they are allowed to earn?

My second point is that $500 a week is $26,000 annually, so how did you decide on the $38,000? The third point is that if you are only clawed back any over-earnings at the rate of 50 cents on the dollar, are you not creating an incentive for some to work the system, earn more than $38,000 and then pay it back with 50-cent dollars; not those in need, but those who may be working the system?

Thank you, senator, for those questions. We came up with the $38,000 as follows: $24,000 is the average annual income of a self-employed individual. Then if you add the maximum somebody can get on the CERB, which was $14,000, that’s how we came up with the $38,000.

We would have loved to have a sophisticated working long-claim model like we had in EI where every two weeks we could check people’s income and verify that. We just weren’t able systemically to do that, so we came up with an annual income, which was $38,000, meaning that if you basically have to earn above $51,000 to have every single dollar of the Canada Emergency Response Benefit clawed back; it’s $38,000 plus $13,000. It will happen over two tax years just by the nature of the 26 weeks and we’re at the end of 2020. The expectation is that people will know what they earned and they will know if they’re going to hit the threshold or not, or have hit the threshold, and will decide — again, it’s by attestation whether or not to apply —

Excuse me, minister. Now Senator Dalphond, you have five minutes.

You guys have to ask me before Chrystia.

I understand from a written question I asked of the department earlier this week that the excess costs for increasing the EI benefits to a minimum of $500 is approximately $2.2 billion.

Minister Freeland, I understand from your answer that overall, you estimate the adjustments made to the EI system will cost about $10.2 billion, and I also understand that the government has committed to freeze the rates for employers and employees for the next two years. So will that $10 billion be coming from the excess in the Employment Insurance funds or is that going to come from a subsidy from the federal government to the Employment Insurance fund?

That’s a very good question. We have made no change to the way EI is funded. When this comes to the freezing of the premiums, I hope everyone will agree now is not a time to be imposing additional taxes on employers, particularly not a tax that would effectively be a disincentive to hiring new people. That’s why we did it, but we haven’t changed the way the system operates.

Where is the $10 billion coming from?

EI operates as an automatic stabilizer, so EI is inevitably more expensive during times of an economic downturn and less expensive when the economy is strong because fewer people need to claim, and that is what we’re going to be experiencing now.

It will be spread over time.

The funding for the EI system is unchanged.

I see. So it’s contrary to the U.S. model where Congress passed a special bill to transfer money to the unemployment system in order to help the states provide support for self-employed people and those who are sick, for example.

You’re quite right, senator, that when it comes to the EI portion of the benefits the funding model is entirely unchanged. Where there is additional funding, it’s for the three new benefits that Minister Qualtrough outlined, and our estimate is that they will cost $24 billion. We have, of course, provided significant funding to the provinces: the $19 billion Safe Restart Agreement and $2 billion for the restart of schools.

CERB and other benefits were paid without source deductions, and now I understand that these new benefits will be taxed at source. What’s the reasoning behind that? Is it to facilitate recovery, or is it to treat it like unemployment benefits?

It was the second answer. So we wanted to parallel the EI system, and again we tried to create as much equity as we could, which is why we have raised the minimum EI amount to a $500 a week too. EI is taxed at source, so we felt it prudent to do the same. The CRA will take a flat 10% off someone’s $500 a week. Again, we don’t have the sophisticated system to tell you exactly what somebody’s income was at that moment, how much it should be, but there will be a tax deduction at the source.

Also, these benefits have now been going on for long enough that we want to make sure people aren’t put in a more vulnerable position come next tax season where they have a massive tax bill because we didn’t collect it at the source.

Forty-five seconds.

Then I give it up. Thank you.

Next 10 minutes will be shared by Senator Bellemare and Senator Loffreda: 5 minutes each.

I am very pleased to have a chance to ask you some questions today. Thank you both for being here. I’d like to continue in the same vein as Senator Dalphond. Although we didn’t confer, we seem to have similar questions.

Given that nothing is mentioned in Bill C-4, it is clear that EI is expected to retain the same funding levels. Let me dig a little deeper. For 50 years, from 1941 to 1991, the federal government was an important funding partner in the EI system. Between 1971 and 1991, the federal government was responsible for EI expenditures when the unemployment rate was higher than 4%. Today employers and employees fund all EI expenditures. These are very regressive contributions for workers, especially for small businesses. The Chief Actuary told us in August that the EI account, which is normally around $20 billion, would grow to $60 billion in 2020 because of its anticipated spending, not counting the additional $10.2 billion.

Do you believe, since history has shown us as much, that the federal government could be an important funding partner in the EI system? Do you foresee that being the case under permanent reforms to EI?

That is an important and I would say a key question. I will be specific. Today, we are not proposing changes to the employment insurance system. I want to be very clear with all senators. That is not what we are proposing. We are not changing the system today.

However, as you and Minister Qualtrough stated, I believe that the COVID-19 crisis has shown Canadians that the EI system is an excellent system. It is robust and complex and reflects the complexity of the economy, but it was created for our usual economy and not the current economy. For that reason, we added support measures for workers, as Minister Qualtrough mentioned.

As Minister Qualtrough said, COVID-19 has made us realize that we must reflect on whether our employment insurance system is appropriate for the 21st century. That is an important question. We must think hard about that and conduct the necessary consultations. It is as though we were on a long flight, the COVID-19 flight. Making changes to the aircraft’s systems mid-flight is not the right approach. However, we see today that it will be important and necessary to give some thought to that.

I have a question for Ms. Qualtrough about public employment services. With regard to eligibility criteria, I see that you rely a great deal on random tests administered by the Canada Revenue Agency. Very soon, we will need recovery measures and incentives so that Canadians are more active on the job market and we will have to transition from passive to active measures. We will need public services to help people find jobs and we will have to work with the provinces. Have you examined the possibility of working more closely with provincial public services?

Minister, I’m sorry, but five minutes are up.

Yes.

My question is for Minister Freeland. Congratulations once again, and thank you, minister, for being with us here today.

I know the provisions in Bill C-4 will be welcomed by many Canadians, and I certainly appreciate the need to support and invest in people during these times. Many Canadians work within a budgetary framework, and the government’s willingness to provide fiscal projections this fall is a wise choice. It’s comforting to see that, as you mentioned previously, the costs have been outlined: you have costs for the various programs and a budget plan with clear targets that outline these costs. This is very important.

Has your government set a maximum debt-to-GDP target to attain? I mean, there are a lot of moving parts at this point. It would be comforting to see an upper limit to say that this is the upper limit on the debt-to-GDP that we don’t want to surpass. We need a cap.

This is important because it would comfort us. It would give us direction, and at this point I think direction is important for the investors, for bond-rating agencies, and it’s important to see that our expenditures are being well monitored and managed while waiting for fall fiscal projections.

I appreciate the fact that, as I have said previously, we are building the tracks as the train is speeding along but a sense of direction will make sure the train doesn’t fall off the tracks as we are building them. I feel confident that you have the situation under control, but I’d like to know if there is a maximum level where, given all these moving parts, you will say there is a limit we won’t surpass on the debt-to-GDP.

I’m going to turn around and face you, senator, while answering, so I don’t have to show you my back while speaking to you.

Senator, I’ll offer an answer in two parts. The first one is that you are quite right that, even as we confront this unprecedented crisis, we need to do it in a way that is thoughtful and prudent. I actually think that at a time when we are spending — because of this unprecedented crisis — unprecedented amounts of money, we need to be more careful rather than less. That is why, as I said in response to an earlier question, all of us should take note of what DBRS Morningstar said a few weeks ago when they confirmed Canada’s triple-A rating: “DBRS Morningstar views the overall fiscal response positively, as the stimulus has been timely in delivery, temporary in design, and sufficient in size given the scale of the shock.”

That is not the government speaking. You referred to the ratings agencies; that’s one of them.

When it comes to spending, it’s worth appreciating that not all spending is created equal. Today we need to think about our spending in two categories.

The first category is the spending to fight the coronavirus: the spending on vaccines, the spending on testing and tracing, and the spending to support Canadians as governments impose restrictive measures on the economy to fight the coronavirus. We are already seeing, as the second wave mounts in Quebec and in Ontario and in B.C., additional restrictive measures imposed.

Canadians need to have economic support to get through those restrictions. The reality is that none of us can predict exactly what the course of the virus will be. We cannot know for certain how great that support will need to be, nor can we know for certain what the cost will be for PPE, for vaccines and so forth. What I think is really important in that fight against coronavirus is for our government, and indeed all of us, to say to Canadians that Canada went into this crisis with the fiscal firepower to fight the virus. Our measures so far are working. We have seen over the summer a strong economic rebound because of those measures to support Canadians.

It’s really important for Canadians to know the support to fight the virus is going to continue to be there. We cannot say to Canadians that you need to have new restrictions if we’re not going to support —

Minister, we have to move on to the next 10 minutes.

Thank you, ministers, for coming. I would like to continue to question along the lines of Senator Carignan. The PBO put the deficit at 328.5, the government projected 343.2; not accounting the recent NDP-sponsored additions. According to Fitch Ratings, and incorporating this rather ambitious addition, it projected the deficit tag at $380 billion. Last Friday, two days after the Throne Speech, it issued a statement, warning that we could face a credit downgrade if the Liberal government continues in their failure to: “ . . . set clear post-pandemic fiscal anchors and reduce the federal deficit to sustainable levels after the public health crisis . . . .”

The simple calculations of the projected $380-billion deficit for the fiscal year amounts to $10,000 in debt burden for every Canadian. Considering the government was projecting a deficit until 2040, long before the pandemic, I dare not imagine the magnitude of those deficits now. Are we talking about a century?

My question to you, minister, is will the government promise fiscal year updates in order to shed light on just how much this additional measure will cost, what the debt burden is for Canadians, and just how many decades, if not centuries, will it take Canada to balance the budget?

Again, many questions contained in there. I’ll try to answer a few of them.

We committed in the Speech from the Throne to release an update to Canada’s COVID-19 Economic Response Plan in the fall, and we committed that the update will outline the government’s economic and fiscal position. It will provide fiscal projections and set out new measures to implement the Throne Speech.

When it comes to spending — relevant to your question and the second part of my answer to the senator — when it comes to fighting the coronavirus, it is essential for us to say to Canadians and to assure Canadians, as Mario Draghi did in the EU after the 2008 crisis, that we will do whatever it takes to support you.

Canadians are worried now, with the second wave. Some Canadians in the country are subject to new restrictions. They need to know that we’re going to support them in doing what is right to protect our health. That is going to lead to the best economic outcome for all of us.

The second thing I want to say, senator, is that is one type of spending — the fighting coronavirus spending. There is another type of spending, which is new permanent spending programs. When it comes to that type of spending, a very different approach needs to be taken. When it comes to new permanent spending programs, I think it’s very important for our government — for any government — to apply the same kind of prudence, rigour and careful thought on sustainability that I would say is the Canadian way.

When do you think Canadians can expect an actual budget to be tabled?

The Throne Speech was clear, and I tried to be as well, on what we intend to do in the fall.

Thank you.

My second question: Back in May, the National Research Council partnered with CanSino, a Chinese firm that has ties with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, to develop a vaccine. In August, that multimillion-dollar vaccine deal, which was created with Canadian tech, collapsed because China’s communist regime blocked the shipment of vaccines to Canada. Those vaccines would have been the first to be approved for testing in human trials in Canada. Unfortunately, it’s always the case when you are dealing with the communist regime. Minister, did the deal with the CCP, which fell through, make us fall behind other countries in securing vaccines?

Absolutely not.

My question is for Minister Qualtrough. I thank both ministers for being here. We all recognize the importance of what the government has done to help Canadians.

My question is concerning hospitality. The restaurant sector has been hard hit, and as we know, they are probably one of the hardest hit sectors. The second version of the CEWS was meant to provide additional support but is failing to achieve some of its goals. It initially did some good, but it’s very complex. Moreover, it’s becoming evident that Canada is moving into or is already in our second wave. In Quebec, of course, as of today, there are more restrictions in terms of restaurant closures.

Given the dire situation that many small businesses in the restaurant and hospitality sectors are already in, how will the government support these businesses? Should stringent public health measures be reimposed? The problem with restaurants is that many of them work on a volume basis; if you don’t sell booze, you don’t make money. For those who are just selling food, you have to have volume, and with people not out in the streets you’re not getting the volume. When you put the $48,000 up to help people out, it’s great, but all it does is extend the speed at which they’re going to go bankrupt.

Knowing what we know about the fragility of restaurant businesses, what can we do that’s reasonable? You don’t want to keep sinking money into a situation if the ship is sinking, but at the same time you have 800,000 Canadians working in this industry. What can we do? There seems to be more problems that are going to get bigger in this particular sector.

That’s a question for me, senator, I’m afraid. I agree with your point. I agree that the hospitality sector is particularly affected, and I agree that going into the second wave, which is happening in many parts of the country, the horrible paradox of the coronavirus is that to fight the virus we have to intentionally choose to shut down some economic activity.

Right.

I believe that the right economic policy, and also the right health policy, is to give those workers and businesses the support they need to do the right thing.

So here’s what we are proposing. As we said in the Throne Speech, the wage subsidy will be extended to the summer. I can’t give you details on how exactly that’s going to work yet, but Nick Leswick from Finance is with me. I can assure you Finance officials are burning the midnight oil working that out.

There was also something very important, which I think was perhaps not sufficiently noticed in the Throne Speech. It was a commitment to provide additional specific support to businesses that face new lockdown restrictions, kind of a safety net to get them through. We meant it when we said that in the Throne Speech. That’s something we’re working on right now. It’s something I have spoken about specifically with the provinces of Quebec and Ontario because they have already imposed some additional restrictions. It’s tricky to do, but I think that it can and must be done, and we will do it.

Thank you.

You still have a minute.

I don’t want to pontificate and say anything other than on the point that has been raised three or four times about how far you go. My way of thinking is always that you have to go and help and support people, but there has to be an economic balance or a fiscal anchor somewhere that you can start to share with Canadians without giving your hand up.

You have to be very adept in talking to Canadians about how far you are going to go, but you have to give them some sense of what the end game is in terms of how far you can go. I know it’s early, but I hope that this planning process is going on so that you’re not only well prepared, but Canadians can be well prepared to accept and know that it’s going to be the right direction.

Senator Smith has managed to use that one minute.

My question is on behalf of my colleague Senator Boyer, Ontario. It’s an open question to whoever can provide a fulsome response.

My question is about the government’s distinction-based approach to Indigenous services. The government stated during the Speech from the Throne that it must work toward implementing the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission final’s report. The report “calls for the federal government to recognize, respect, and address the distinct health needs of the Métis, Inuit, and off-reserve Aboriginal peoples.”

In order to do this, the government must address the needs of urban Indigenous populations. It is well documented that over 50% of all Indigenous people live in an urban community. Distinction-based funding does not include Indigenous people living in the city.

How will Indigenous skills and employment training programs be designed to help Indigenous-based populations find employment if these are distinctions-based?

Second, will additional funds and approaches be included to serve this population?

Thank you for your really important question. We have an Indigenous Skills and Employment Training Program, ISET, which has met with a lot of success in some ways and has faced some serious — I wouldn’t say challenges — wake-up calls in terms of how we interact with different communities. We are working on improving that program to deliver both on reserves through distinctions-based, but also to Indigenous urban youth, which is a particular interest of mine, being mindful and respectful of everything I’ve learned around there not being the community support in an urban environment as there may be in other environments.

Again, we’re working on that. We have a commitment in the Speech from the Throne to make the biggest investment in the history of our country in training. We will absolutely be investing quite significantly in Indigenous training to the best of our ability and working, of course, with my colleague Minister Miller on walking that path together respectfully.

Quyanainni.

I yield the balance of my time.

Thank you Minister Freeland, Minister Qualtrough and your officials for being so present with us today. Your public service is appreciated by millions of Canadians, including many of us in this chamber.

Once my one question to each of you has been answered, I intend to yield my balance to Senator Kutcher for Senator Moodie.

Minister Freeland, CERB recipients who apply to the Canada Revenue Agency will have to start the EI application process from scratch, as we know. Is the government expecting those who applied for CERB through the CRA to live without any income for six to eight weeks? Does the government have a plan in place to help them bridge the gap between CERB and EI?

Tragically, this is happening at exactly the time when the extraordinarily wealthy banks in this country are dropping hammers of debt on already debt-loaded Canadians by stopping many of the temporary deferrals of mortgage and credit card debt that’s weighing down millions of Canadians. Let’s be clear: these are only deferrals. They’re coming back on stream with compound penalties piled on to much of the credit card debt, for example.

Ministers, some Canadians — especially the elderly, poor Canadians — have been using their credit cards to pay for medicine and other essentials. Back in April, your predecessor, Minister Freeland, and Prime Minister Trudeau, both spoke blunt words on how the banks, especially the big six, needed to be doing more. But the big six have not stepped up. Forgiveness of debt does not seem to be in their lexicon beyond bland words of assurance from their executives on websites of the banks and the Canadian Bankers Association, words that lead debtors to long waits online and on the phone, then far too often only to be told, if they actually reach a live person or get a personalized response, “Sorry, they don’t qualify.”

Isn’t it time for Canada’s wealthy financial institutions, especially the big six, to step up and genuinely give some relief to heavily indebted Canadians in this time of crisis? Yes, I know we need the strong banks. Senator Loffreda and I have had this conversation over and over again. But can’t banks afford to step up? Look at their profit levels during the pandemic.

Will we be able to see from you stronger measures and corporate responsibility directed at our rich banks in defence of Canadians loaded with debt exacerbated by this crisis?

Minister Qualtrough, you go ahead because there was a CERB-EI thing there.

I was going to ask Heather to give the numbers. We’ve been very aware of the need to minimize, if not eliminate, the transition between CERB and EI, particularly for new applicants because the vast majority of EI-CERB recipients have automatically been transferred and Service Canada is working with those who haven’t.

I’m actually not as worried — I’m always worried — about that group. Heather shared with me some very hopeful numbers in our briefing. I’d ask her to share those numbers.

Thank you for the question. Senator, just to give you some dates — it may be too much — September 29 would be the earliest date that someone could have received their last CERB payment delivered by EI. They would be eligible starting on October 11. They would be eligible for the two weeks prior to October 11.

The first EI payments then, under post-CERB, would go out as soon as October 14. It’s estimated that 80% of those clients will receive their benefit within three days of becoming eligible.

What I heard as of this afternoon — the latest numbers —is that of those applications that we have received since Sunday, when the new application period opened, 83.4% have already been processed since they were received.

I would also mention some dates with respect to the proposed Bill C-4. If Bill C-4 receives Royal Assent, the first applications would start on Monday, October 5. CRA would be delivering those benefits, and they have indicated that they anticipate most people will receive their benefits within three to five business days if they are on direct deposit; quite quickly after that October 5 go-live date. That would be for the caregiving and sickness benefit because they are delivered on one-week increments, whereas the recovery benefit is on a two-week increment, and it would open on October 12.

The point about the mortgage deferrals is a really important one. It’s something that we are going to be watching very closely.

If I were to summarize the core theme of Bill C-4 and of our entire discussion today, it is our government’s commitment to supporting Canadians through this crisis. We’ve done a lot, we know there’s more to do and we need your help to do it.

I do agree with you that everyone has to do their part in Canada, including those who have the most means. We’re going to be watching closely, and I’ll leave it there.

Minister Freeland, how do you feel about what the banks have done so far? Have they responded to the Prime Minister and your predecessor and the words they spoke in April? I have to say, I see no evidence of it.

Senator, in your remarks, you spoke about the importance of having strong financial institutions in a country. That’s right. Particularly at a time of financial stress, which this is, that systemic importance is something that I am very aware of.

When it comes to the Canadian financial system in particular, as a financial journalist in New York in 2008, I was very aware of the way in which Canadian financial institutions and our banking system coped with the 2008 financial crisis much better than financial institutions in the U.S., in the U.K. and other G7 countries. That was a strength that helped us all. So I am mindful of that, and I’m glad you made that comment.

Honourable senators, the committee has been sitting for 125 minutes. In conformity with the order of the Senate, I am obliged to interrupt proceedings so that the committee can report to the Senate.

Ministers, on behalf of all senators, thank you for joining us today to assist us with our work on the bill. I would also like to thank your officials.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

The Chair: Honourable senators, is it agreed that the Committee rises and I report to the Senate that the witnesses have been heard?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Honourable senators, the sitting of the Senate is resumed.