Therefore, honourable senators, in amendment, I move:

That Bill C-11, as amended, be not now read a third time, but that it be further amended,

(a) in clause 3 (as amended by the decision of the Senate on December 14, 2022), on page 8, by replacing line 31 with the following:

“(i) allow the discoverability of Canadian program-”;

(b) in clause 10 (as amended by the decision of the Senate on December 14, 2022), on page 14, by replacing lines 27 to 30 with the following:

“services for selection by the public;”.

Honourable senators, I thank you for your consideration.

Are there questions?

Senator Housakos, you have four minutes left, and we have several questions. We will monitor the time.

Thank you, senator, for your very thorough speech. I wanted to remind you that Bill C-11 already includes an exclusion with respect to the use of algorithms. Whatever it is that the chair, now the former chair — whatever it is he may have said — and he did, as you quoted correctly, make these statements to our committee — you will know that clause 9.1(8) actually states:

The Commission shall not make an order under paragraph (1)‍(e) —

— that is the one you are suggesting be changed —

 — that would require the use of a specific computer algorithm or source code.

So, in fact, the bill, as it is, says that no algorithm manipulation will be allowed under orders of the CRTC.

I think your concern about algorithms is a little bit misplaced because, in fact, the CRTC cannot make a ruling on algorithms.

Thank you for making my point, Senator Dasko. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, does make rulings when it comes to these issues.

First of all, as we know, the bill says clearly, and the CRTC chair recognized that language in the bill. He also recognized that bill gives him the authority to demand outcomes, to force these platforms to arrive at a certain outcome. As I pointed out in my speech, we saw a number of attempts by officials and by the CRTC to explain to the committee how you could create a certain outcome without algorithmic manipulation. There is only one way to drive outcome. If the outcome by the CRTC, for example, is a list of criteria they expect the platforms to prioritize, other than algorithm manipulation, what is it exactly that the platforms will be able to do to achieve CRTC expectations vis-à-vis the outcomes? Maybe you have an answer.

Senator, as you know, there are many other ways that can be used to promote and showcase Canadian content. That is a topic that came up a great many times at our committee. The platforms can use various kinds of promotion, they can use advertising, they can use categories of presentation, they can use pop-ups — they have all kinds of other methods to showcase Canadian content.

When you take those opportunities, those possibilities, along with what I just read — which is very clear that algorithms cannot be ordered to be manipulated — and when you put these possibilities together, you actually have a very good picture of how discoverability can be carried out by the platforms. It seems to me to be very reasonable and would seem to address your concerns. Thank you.

It does not address my concerns, and it did not address the concerns of all of the digital-first content producers who came before our committee. You were a diligent part of that process.

With all due respect, pop-ups and advertising strips do not drive content. That was also validated by the platforms themselves when they came before our committee. There was never an ambiguity that there is only one way to drive outcomes, and that is algorithmic manipulation. That is clear in the report. There was no witness that called that into question — not the platforms themselves and not the CRTC chairs themselves.

Furthermore, the problem we have, as we’ve seen in history, the CRTC has full discretion in the old Broadcasting Act and they do today. The CRTC chair admitted that he has full authority in order to implement the Broadcasting Act. We had an example last year when the CRTC censored a particular program and a journalist at Radio-Canada because a word was used that was deemed inappropriate by the CRTC. They had the power with the old Broadcasting Act to censor that journalist. I will not get into the details and I will not use the word because it is inappropriate, but it is an example of how the CRTC has the power to censor. We should be very careful. And why are we fearful?

Senator Housakos, your time has expired. There are several more senators who would like to ask questions. Are you asking for five more minutes?

Yes.

Is it agreed?

Senator Housakos, would you agree to take a question?

It would be my pleasure.

Your amendment is set out in two parts. I want to begin with the second part. You want to get rid of the clause that says that original French-language shows have to be part of what platforms and broadcasters promote. You want to delete that part of the legislation. I imagine that means that you think original French-language shows aren’t important enough to be entitled to some protection. As you know, and you explained it in your presentation, French is still a minority language in Canada and in North America, even though it is the majority language in Quebec.

Generally, when I see you trying to weaken the scope of discoverability — a concept that still needs to be defined — I come back to the comparison that you always make between the private sector and the public sector, as though culture were just another commodity. I absolutely agree with you that private companies can do all sorts of extraordinary things in product development based on what consumers are looking for. However, for very obvious reasons, culture has never been perceived as a commodity to others. That’s why governments have taken it upon themselves to ensure a certain common good.

Are you dropping original French-language shows because they don’t interest you? Do your really believe that culture is just another commodity?

Yes, I truly believe that culture is a commodity like any other. It is important to get the best products out there, the best artists and the best people in the field, people who can attract more interest. That will transform the whole thing into a money-maker. Our goals are aligned. I want to protect francophone Quebec culture. I am proud to be a Quebecer, and I am very proud of the importance of promoting Quebec culture, but our approach is very different.

You’re obsessed with protectionism when you try to restrict the promotion of French culture to a limited market that has only a few million francophones in Quebec and Canada. I want to use the platform we have before us and I’m fighting for all Quebecers who call me every day, who send emails and who give me the courage to continue my fight in this place, on their behalf, because for the past few years, thanks to this platform, they’ve had the opportunity to export their French culture to hundreds of millions of francophones around the world.

You now seem convinced that protectionism, a closed approach that limits opportunities for these people and forces them to work in a smaller market, is the best option for them rather than making the entire francophone world available to them. I am fighting for these people. I don’t understand why you’re not as enthusiastic as I am about the idea of maintaining and protecting the wealth that has developed over the past 15 to 20 years thanks to various international platforms.

Senator Housakos, will you take a question from me, sir? Your speech helped me to understand what your concern is. I have had doubts about it myself. But I think that you really clarified it in my mind.

On the one hand, I think that you are seeing the algorithms as being as innocent as the driven snow and a government body appointed by an elected government as being the devil incarnate. I have a slightly different view of algorithms. We have heard about enormous hate, misogyny and anti-Semitism that has been promoted and received a high degree of attention through these algorithms. Controversy drives algorithms.

Senator Housakos, your time has expired, are you asking for five more minutes?

If the chamber indulges me.

Is it agreed, honourable senators?

My question is this: Do you not agree that what this bill will do is increase the amount of money that will go toward production of Canadian content, whether it be on the internet or other media, and that will be better than an uncontrolled system that simply increases the ability for hate, misogyny, division and all of that?

Thank you, senator, for your question. Actually, I see two questions in there.

The algorithmic process that is used by platforms right now is organic. It is not controlled by any one person; it is controlled by you and me. If we have a phone or an iPad and are on these platforms, we determine what is prioritized.

These platforms are in the business of volume. They give the consumer what the consumer wants. That is what I’m fighting for. All I’m simply saying is it is not incumbent upon you or I to determine what should or should not be censored.

I have faith in the Canadian public. I do not believe that most Canadians are misogynistic, racist or Islamophobic. I believe that, at the end of the day, they will make the right choices.

When we see things on the web that are deplorable, all of us, as Canadians, call it out. When we see something that we want to really push forward, we will get up and push it forward without any hindrance or determination by any minister or politician. I don’t care if it is a Conservative, a Liberal or a Communist for that matter.

On your second question, the truth of the matter is that in the last decade — and I touched upon it in my speech, as did Senator Plett — we are talking, in 2021, $5 billion of investment in the arts and culture sector. I know you have many years of experience at the CRTC in arts and culture. You name me what year the Canadian government was able to inject into Canada $5 billion in arts and culture.

We keep putting $1.4 billion into the CBC and no one watches it, and God knows we’re not consulted about it. The ratings keep going down. Everyone is going to streaming and to all of these platforms that we are trying to demonize, but these platforms have put more investment into Canadian arts and culture than ever before.

As I said it in my speech — and we saw it in the testimony — there is a plethora, not a shortage, right now of Canadian artists working today making films and documentaries, and producing songs, shows and art like never before. Let’s unleash that Canadian culture. We’re punching above our weight around the world. Let’s continue to give more of Canada to the world instead of giving it less by closing our borders.

On debate, Senator Simons.

Are senators ready for the question?

Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

All those in favour of the motion will please say “yea.”

All those opposed to the motion will please say “nay.”

In my opinion, the “nays” have it.

I see two senators rising. Do we have agreement on a bell?

The vote will take place at 6:54 p.m. Call in the senators.

Motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator negatived on the following division:

YEAS

The Honourable Senators

NAYS

The Honourable Senators

ABSTENTIONS

The Honourable Senators

Honourable senators, is it agreed at this time that we not see the clock?