Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 23, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 4:55 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Tõnu Onu, Clerk of the committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum so we will commence. It is my duty as clerk of the committee to preside over the election of a chair for the committee. I am prepared to accept a motion to nominate a chair.
Senator Adams: I move that Senator Watt be chairman of the committee.
Mr. Onu: It was moved by Senator Adams that Senator Watt be chair of the committee. Are there any other nominations?
Senator Pearson: I move nominations be closed.
Mr. Onu: Therefore, I declare Senator Watt elected chairman of the committee, and I invite Senator Watt to take the Chair.
Hon. Charlie Watt (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Can we have a motion for deputy chair?
Senator Taylor: I nominate Senator Johnson.
The Chairman: Senator Johnson's name has been put in nomination. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for the second motion, honourable senators?
Senator Pearson: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consideration;
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for item 4 on the agenda, honourable senators?
Senator Taylor: I move:
That the committee print 500 copies of its proceedings; and That the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
The Chairman: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for item 5 on the agenda, honourable senators?
Senator Pearson: I move:
That, pursuant to rule 89 of the Rules of the Senate, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of each party is present.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for Item 6 on the agenda, honourable senators?
Senator Taylor: I move:
That, pursuant to rule 104 of the Rules of the Senate, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
The Chairman: Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for item 7 on the agenda, honourable senators?
Senator Pearson: I move:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: May I have a mover for Item 8 on the agenda, honourable senators?
Senator Taylor: I move:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair or in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the clerk of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Would someone kindly move item number 9, travel.
Senator Pearson: I move:
That the committee empower the Chair to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Would someone kindly move item number 10 on the agenda.
Senator Pearson: I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for no more than two witnesses from any one organization and payment will take place upon application.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Would someone kindly move item 11 on the agenda.
Senator Taylor: I move:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
The Chairman: Is this motion agreeable to honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item is number 12 on the agenda.
Mr. Onu: The schedule worked out by the Whips of the two parties has given the Aboriginal Peoples Committee a time slot on Tuesday morning from 8:30 a.m. 10:30 a.m. and another time slot from 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. on Wednesdays.
There are some conflicts in terms of some senators of this committee who are members of other committees.
The Chairman: I have no intention of getting up at 5 a.m. on Tuesday morning to get on the road.
Senator Pearson: We have found in the past that, often, it was hard to keep people at 5:30 p.m.
Senator Adams: What bills are about to be referred to the committee?
Mr. Onu: There are two bills before the House of Commons that, eventually, will be referred to this committee.
Mr. Onu: We have been given Room 256 on Tuesday mornings until 10:30 a.m. However, no one uses that room on that day until the government caucus members meet at 11:45 a.m. Conceivably, we could use the room until 11 a.m. or later.
Senator Pearson: When will the Aboriginal Peoples Room be available?
The Chairman: In December, around Christmas.
Senator Corbin: It will not be this year. They have further work to do.
The Chairman: When that room is finished, will we have some exclusivity on it? I do not think so.
Senator Pearson: No, but we should have first claim on it.
The Chairman: We have to find some acceptable times.
Senator Pearson: Tuesday suits me best.
Senator Adams: The Energy Committee will be doing a study on oil and gas. I am wondering if it will be doing anything with regard to aboriginal people. Do matters with regard to aboriginal peoples have to be referred to this committee?
Senator Corbin: Nothing is fixed. The Senate ultimately decides. Normally, it would go to the Energy Committee. However, on some occasions, the Senate could say, "After consultations, we would like the Aboriginal Peoples Committee to handle that." It is flexible.
Mr. Onu: It is always at the discretion of the Leader of the Government as to where a bill is sent.
Senator Corbin: Yes, after consultations with the opposition.
Not being a member of this committee, may I suggest that you leave that matter aside until opposition members are present? You are talking in the wind right now. They will want to have their say.
Mr. Onu: These two slots are allocated to us. We can keep them and, as Senator Corbin suggested, we do not have to make a decision with regard to them today.
The Chairman: Members of the other side arrive in Ottawa on Monday night. They will want to have a meeting early on Tuesday morning. Let us try to come up with some sort of happy medium solution.
Room 256 is not used until 11:45 on Tuesday mornings.
Senator Pearson: Personally, I think the best thing to do is to suit the chair. He is the one who has to be here all the time. That is his job.
Senator Adams: The steering committee can deal with the issue of times.
Mr. Onu: Do you want to refer it to the steering committee?
The Chairman: No. Let us agree on 10 a.m. Then we can wrestle with the rest of the members of the committee.
Senator Taylor: You might have to wrestle with the Energy Committee.
It is possible that the energy time slot could be moved up to 8:30.
The Chairman: We can also revisit this later if we find a way to answer these problems. Let us agree to ten o'clock for now. We will meet next week on Tuesday at ten o'clock.
I want to have a general discussion with committee members before we start taking on our actual tasks.
I was hoping, regarding item 13, that all full-fledged members would be in attendance. Unfortunately, they are not here. Nevertheless, I will share some information with you. Senator Adams already knows this.
I have learned in the Senate that when a committee is put together, aside from dealing with specific pieces of legislation, we try to be innovative in terms of the projects that we begin. I do not want to put this committee into the predicament of trying to pick our next project from the air.
I suggest we focus on one area of the Royal Commission report as a platform for this committee. The Government of Canada at this point seems to be quite anxious to find solutions to the concept of partnership. When you talk about a partnership concept, you cannot rule out the fact that there are other levels of jurisdictions which must be taken into account, such as territorial and provincial governments. You must also think seriously about how you can be implicated into the municipal structure and things of that nature. Those various levels of governmental instruments must be closely examined to see how we, as senators, can help the Government of Canada and society as a whole to assist the aboriginal people to reach their goals.
I will need your support once everything is negotiated as I see that it needs to be done. I have moved in the direction of consulting with six national aboriginal leaders, including two women's associations, one Indian and the other Inuit.
To my knowledge, the Métis have no national women associations. At least it has not been integrated into the national Métis council. There may be some at the provincial level.
I have consulted with those various leaders and they were accompanied by provincial leaders. They are willing to roll up their sleeves to help their people to become competitive in society whenever the Government of Canada, whichever party is in power at that point, is ready to legislate formal recognition of their status as legitimate contributors to society.
I have developed broad principles on what I feel we should be doing and how we should be conducting ourselves. I will share that information with you and, over the weekend, you can study that and make your comments. We will see where we go from there.
Keep in mind that I still must take these matters to the Minister of Indian Affairs. The minister will also take this matter under consideration and it may also need to be taken to the Prime Minister.
Senator Corbin: Are you suggesting that the Conference of National Aboriginal Leaders and this committee work hand in hand?
The Chairman: As much as possible.
Senator Corbin: We would work as a unit?
The Chairman: We would not necessarily work as a unit. There are aboriginal leaders out there who must take their case somewhere. Right now they have no place to take their case. They can still deal directly with the Minister of Indian Affairs, but, collectively, as a unit trying to formulate their position in regards to this concept of a partnership, they have no existing mechanism which can address their concerns. They would bring that matter to the committee.
The committee will deal with that and will examine the legalities and things of that nature. Hopefully, before we make a recommendation to the Senate, we can give it back to them and see if they agree.
Senator Corbin: We would get their stamp of approval?
Senator Watt: I am trying to stay away from the word "consent." We would get a consensus from the committee and a consensus from there. Eventually, that would have to go somewhere such as to the Minister of Indian Affairs.
Senator Corbin: It would first be a report to the Senate.
The Chairman: Yes. From the Senate, it goes to the Minister of Indian Affairs, and then to the Privy Council.
Senator Corbin: You would attach a request that the government respond to your committee's report within X number of days?
The Chairman: That is instead of doing a report and concluding it and then getting feedback later.
Senator Corbin: It is a new approach. It is innovative. There is always a first time.
The Chairman: We will see where it goes.
Senator Adams: In the mean time, perhaps the clerk could check on the legal background. How much power does the Senate have to initiate legislation here, instead of letting it begin in the House of Commons. We had Bill S-2, a very important bill, that was introduced in the Senate.
Any bills regarding money matters are not introduced in the Senate. Usually they are introduced first in the House of Commons because the MPs are elected. Is there any kind of rule that governs such a study?
Mr. Onu: There is a distinction regarding bills because, as you say, money bills can only be introduced in the House of the Commons. Other legislation can be introduced in the Senate.
You have to go with a motion to the Senate first, but once the Senate approves and gives an order of reference to the committee, the committee can study anything. In the past committees have done special studies on a wide variety of subjects. There are no restrictions or limits on what the committee can examine. Obviously it would examine something under its area of competence, but the key is to get a motion in the Senate and an order of reference referred to the committee. Then the committee has the authority to carry out a special study, so there are no limits in terms of subject matter, if that is your question.
Senator Adams: Yes. I am also concerned about the process surrounding land claims. There has been concern about getting the money from Ottawa. If the bill is passed, it will cause the government and the Department of Indian Affairs to spend money in the community.
The Chairman: At this point, we are not trying to put ourselves in the position of formulating legislation. That is for the House of Commons to decide. When the time comes for them to formulate the legislation, we are trying to make things easier for them and provide information. Those sorts of recommendations will be going to cabinet, hopefully, if it is agreed.
Mr. Onu: The report from a committee study would contain recommendations, as the chairman was saying.
The Chairman: It would be nice if we could move in the direction of formulating the legislation but we will see how far we can go. That will still have be negotiated politically.
Senator Pearson: I understand what you are trying to formulate is an opportunity that is now missing and is blocking everyone, including the spokespeople for these groups, to channel their views. We do not have to agree with all their views.
The Chairman: No, certainly not.
Senator Pearson: In that sense, it is a study.
The Chairman: Why I value the Senate committee is because individual senators have a certain sense of expertise regarding their own rights, and they will really force the aboriginal leaders to think, instead of just running off to the media and saying, "This is what we want." There is too much rhetoric out there.
Senator Pearson: It would be a challenge for us to raise good questions.
The Chairman: Yes, and at the same time the aboriginal leaders will be challenging you. I intend to put a great deal of time and effort into working outside also, not only within the Senate. Some might say to me that that might be a conflict of interest and that I really should not do that. However, I am a leader. I am an aboriginal leader. I am one of them, and I am concerned as to what they come up with. When I run into that fine line, I will have to deal with it. I see that problem coming down the road, but not at this point.
On top of that, we will require extra resources, not in the way that the Senate normally conducts its business. We will need extra resource people.
Senator Pearson: We can do it as a special study.
The Chairman: If the Senate can provide all the requirements to do effective work in this particular area, I will be happy with that. If not, then I am still prepared to take it a step further and try to negotiate a political agreement with the other side, if necessary. My feeling is that if we do not do something meaningful in this area, the Royal Commission report will never be dealt with.
Senator Corbin: That is your single, most important challenge.
The Chairman: On top of that, I also feel we have a good minister right now. I have been collecting all the newspaper clippings since she got that portfolio, and she is saying all the right things. I think we can help her.
Senator Corbin: At least she is being reported correctly.
The Chairman: I just want to alert you to this: The other factor that worries me as an aboriginal leaders, I have been around for a long time, from the time of the Indian Society, the Inuit Society, the Métis Society. I really started getting involved back in early 1982, formulating the constitutional position for the aboriginal people. I have learned never to underestimate the aboriginal people. When they go after their leaders, they have a very fast way of bringing them down, and those leaders have no recourse to go anywhere to justify their actions. I am seeing the person who is leader today in the newspapers on a regular basis, not necessarily because he wants to be in the papers but he gets quoted from time to time, agreeing to this and that. I am afraid he will be pulled down very quickly. This is one of the reasons I am trying to move in the direction of encouraging the aboriginal people to come up with one solid unit so they can protect each other. When you get pulled down, a lot of things stop. There is only a handful of us aboriginal leaders who can understand the different levels of authority and try to get things moving forward.
Senator Pearson: It is an interesting challenge.
Senator Corbin: I want to hear the discussion when the other members are present.
Senator Adams: Are you saying that you think that would stop if there was a comprehensive land claim settlement?
The Chairman: I am not saying that. The minute there is a comprehensive agreement, with federal and provincial contributions, the onus will be upon the leaders to keep it alive. If you do not keep it alive, it can go down very quickly also. It does not matter how much constitutional protection you might have; if you do not put those rights into practice, you lose them. As a matter of fact, at times, I have seen them being traded off for services. You can see why the national leaders that came along through the 1982 process have been quite alarmed with the way their rights are being eroded, not only by the developers but by their own people as well.
Those are all the items we have on the agenda for today. Thank you, honourable senators.
The committee adjourned.