Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 24 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 24, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:05 p.m. to examine and report upon aboriginal self-government.
Senator Charlie Watt (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we are honoured to have many members of the Mohawk community here -- chiefs, grandmothers, elders and many others. I should like also to acknowledge their community's participation at our round table on governance. It was very helpful.
Today Grand Chief Mike Mitchell will make a presentation regarding the movement of goods under Jay Treaty. You may have heard about that issue. We want to see how it fits into the concept of governance, especially in view of our governance need for a sound economic base. Chief Mitchell's presentation will hopefully enlighten us as to the direction we must choose with regard to the economic base for future self-government.
Chief Mitchell, please proceed with your presentation.
Grand Chief Mike Mitchell, Akwesasne Reserve: (Chief Mitchell spoke in his native language.)
Honourable senators, thank you for the invitation to appear before your forum on governance.
With me are Mr. Micha Menczer, legal counsel to the Mohawk Council; Mr. Russell Roundpoint, our intermediate government liaison; Mr. Peter Garrow, Director of Education; Ms Lucy Papineau, Director of Health; Ms Angela Barnes, Mohawk-Canada Round Table; Chief Steve Thomas, St. Regis district; Mr. Ron Sunday, director of economic development; Chief Ray Mitchell, Snye district; Chief Vaughn Phillips, St. Regis Village; Chief Antoine Delormier, Chief of Cornwall Island; and Chief George Adams, Chief of Snye. Mr. Arnold Goodleaf is here from Kahnawake; as we will be talking about trade and border crossing, he will give the perspective from that end.
I should also like to introduce my mother who is a clan mother for the Wolf Clan in the longhouse.
The map in your kit shows that the territory of Akwesasne is split into different districts represented by the chiefs I introduced. Cornwall Island is a district on its own. It is situated on the Canadian side within the province of Ontario. St. Regis Village is a district located in the province of Quebec. The district of Snye also falls within the boundaries of Quebec.
Overall, there are 13,000 Haudenosaunee. We have 10,000 members under the Mohawk Council. We are literally caught between Canada and the United States. Over the past century, there has been an ongoing struggle to maintain our rights, our identity, our traditions and cultures while being squeezed between two giant countries.
I will take a little time to give you our background. We are Mohawks of the Mohawk Nation. That Mohawk Nation includes also Kahnawake, Kanesatake, Tyendinega, Oshweken and Wahta. Those Mohawk communities are located in either Quebec or Ontario.
We are perfectly aware of being labelled a "border community" and, in the last dozen years, of being caught in the web of controversy. Much has been written about our community. We are glad to share with you today some of the things that have been said about our people and our community.
For the last dozen years, we have been watching the debates here in Parliament. Some political parties point to Akwesasne as a smuggler's haven. People in Canada have a certain understanding through the news media of what Akwesasne is like.
I will quote a typical newspaper article:
Natives Must End Smuggling.
If leaders of the Akwesasne reserve believe natives should be shown respect at the bargaining table when they negotiate with the federal and provincial governments, they can start by doing a better job of policing themselves.
The reserve near Cornwall is believed to have been a centre for smuggling activity for more than 10 years and that does nothing but hurt the reputation and efforts of all natives, on all reserves, to be treated seriously by government in negotiations on everything from land claims to self government.
Last week, the giant U.S. tobacco company, RJR Reynolds-Nabisco, agreed to pay the U.S. government $15 million in fines after it smuggled 26 tractor-trailer loads of cigarettes onto the reserve, then sold them at cut-rate prices.
The tobacco company's guilty plea in a New York courtroom ended a four-year investigation that saw charges laid against 18 smugglers who ferried a variety of contraband in and out of Akwesasne. The investigation involved six separate law enforcement agencies which consider the reserve a major pipeline for illegal alcohol, tobacco, drugs and even immigrants.
It's time for the natives to do a better job of policing themselves. Failure to do so will simply mean that efforts to gain credibility will fail.
That is where we want to start.
I have been the Grand Chief in Akwesasne since 1984. From that time to 1989, the council that I head has sent to Ottawa more than 20 by-laws, laws that our community requested be made on their behalf. Those laws dealt with firearms, explosives, conservation, water safety, membership, residency, tobacco and so on.
During the period before the smuggling controversy began, Akwesasne members were here in Ottawa. I, along with our lawyer and chiefs, appeared before the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and the Standing Committee on Justice. We brought to Ottawa our concerns that our rights might be interpreted for something other than what they are. Mandated by the community, we came here to represent our people, articulating our aboriginal rights and also offering to work with the appropriate authorities to defend our rights. Our words fell on deaf ears.
At the deputy minister's level, meetings were organized with half a dozen departments including Revenue Canada, Justice and Indian Affairs. For about six months we kept coming here and telling the government that they should be concerned that there might be an interpretation of our rights that would not necessarily protect the rights of our people in our community. We said that outside influences would come and that our people would be the pawns.
We even offered a plan to create in Akwesasne a Mohawk border-patrol program because we are the ones who are most familiar with the waterways and the islands. Between Prescott and Valleyfield, there are 86 miles of islands on the St. Lawrence that also belong to the Mohawks of Akwesasne. Our people are familiar with the waterways.
After all that, the deputy ministers told us that if we believe that we have an aboriginal right, we should go to a Canadian court and prove that the right exists. The government could not negotiate with us to protect our aboriginal right unless we could prove that right in court.
The Akwesasne were in court in 1956. The Supreme Court ruled against the Mohawks on a technicality. They said that the Jay Treaty had not been ratified by Parliament. Even though it was one of 28 articles, that particular article had not been ratified and, therefore, they said, it could not be enacted as a force of law. That ruling affected not only the Akwesasne: It affected all First Nations. It also created a grey area that was left open to interpretation.
However, the United States Congress ratified the Jay Treaty. Therefore, many natives in the United States and Canada knew that we had an aboriginal right. We know the right exists. We know it is a national right that we must all protect. That was my mandate. Council was mandated to come to Ottawa to say that we need to clarify our rights.
In 1988, I had no alternative. The elders and the women of our community loaded up a truck with food, groceries, furniture, appliances and a washing machine that was symbolic of what was confiscated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in 1956. One thousand Mohawks walked across the bridge in 1988. We came across to the Canadian side and we declared everything to Customs. Then we gave all those goods to the Mohawks of Tyendinega. Along the way, on Highway 401, a lone RCMP car pulled up and the driver waved a signal that he came in peace and did not want trouble. He said, "I believe this is what you were looking for", and I was charged for refusing to pay the duties and taxes.
We went to court to establish a test case. Ten years later, in June of 1997, the Federal Court of Canada agreed with the Mohawks that they have an aboriginal right to cross the border and they have an aboriginal right to trade.
On appeal, the earlier decision was upheld. This time, the right was more defined. The historic trading rights of the Mohawk and Iroquois were limited to Quebec and Ontario in all those areas.
I will return to the theory of trade and historic rights and how that would apply today and how it would involve other First Nations and why Canada should not be afraid of discussing or negotiating with us or seeing the implementation or the exercise of that right.
I wish to talk about the community of Akwesasne. That community has done everything, but has been labelled a criminal haven of smugglers, of lawbreakers. Nevertheless, during this period, the community has been able to take over education. I wish to invite the director of education to talk for a few minutes about what the Mohawks have done for themselves in the area of education.
Mr. Peter Garrow, Director of Education, Akwesasne Reserve: Honourable senators, you have all seen dream catchers. You have probably purchased them and have them in your house. We are trying to instil education in our children in order to make those dreams happen.
We touch the lives of 1,600 students annually. We have three schools in the territory of the Akwesasne, two in Quebec and one in Ontario. We have a co-op program and a PAL program as an alternative school. We have 350 students in our post-secondary program. They are in many disciplines. They are probably our most valuable resource.
We have taken control of education since 1985. Our school board has three members from each of our districts. We look after the curriculum, including the Mohawk language. We include in our school not only the curriculum but also our traditions. We want to enrich the learning experience.
It amazes me that our language and even our Mohawk social programs have survived for 500 years. We are not like some of the communities in the North that have been in contact with Canadian or American society for the last 100 years. We have been in contact with Western society for 500 years. The Mi'kmaq communities are in the same boat. We feel strongly that we must continually provide that curriculum for our kids. We must keep that going.
The role models that we want for our children are the educators and political leaders, not the smugglers or the ones depicted in the newspapers.
We need to form partnerships with other school boards, whether in the Canada or in the United States. We are forming those partnerships. Other school districts are interested in what we are teaching our kids about the environment, about the roles and values of family and community. They want to borrow some of the things that we have.
Much of the history that Chief Mitchell speaks about in regard to the Jay Treaty is important to teach and to learn about. The kids need and want to know who we are. It is important that the children have a strong foot in both worlds.
The school in Cornwall that most of our 350 high school students attend has been slated for closure. We are interested in putting together an international school, because that is where we are. We are on the border. That has both pluses and negatives. However, we always think positively. We take advantage of that so that we can provide a curriculum where our kids can be proud of who they are and where they are.
Chief Mike Mitchell: Honourable senators, we are here to talk to you about governance, but we did not go to seek that out. Many times, out of necessity, we had to assume responsibility because no one else would accept responsibility.
I mentioned that we are caught between Canada and the United States; however, we are also located geographically in the jurisdictions of the State of New York, the Province of Quebec and the Province of Ontario. That is five jurisdictions. We have a tribal council that governs the American side, the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne that governs the Canadian side and a traditional government with which our council works.
Our community has taken over justice and has developed our courts. We have set up a legislative commission. We have a police commission and an education board. We control our own conservation and our own environmental program. We have an annual budget of $58 million to take care of our education, capital works, housing, social issues, health and so on, collectively.
In 1984, when I first arrived on the scene, that budget was closer to $5 million and the Department of Indian Affairs ran everything. They made all the decisions. We had to ask them if we could improve our schools, roads and so on. On top of that $5 million, there was a $2-million deficit. When I arrived, they were ready to lock all the administrative offices; they were going to run everything and not consult with the council.
Mr. Crombie was the Minister of Indian Affairs then. I made a special trip to tell him that that my committee wanted to evolve to take responsibility for our community and peoples. We put together a deficit-retirement plan. We put a new management scheme into place. We wanted our own people to design and administer our programs and to get involved in the affairs of our people and our community. It took five years to retire that $2-million deficit, and we were no longer working with a $5-million budget. At the end of 10 years, it was a $42-million budget because our programs and services grew. We are subject to audit.
Our community has been able to remain stable. If you appreciate the dynamics around us, In order to have a stable community, you must be able to send your kids to school, you must be able to have economic development, and you must be able to generate employment. After we read the Royal Commission report, we invited the commissioners to Akwesasne and we testified before a judge and Georges Erasmus. They brought the Royal Commission to Akwesasne. That was in the early 1990s. We were just fresh from a civil war in Akwesasne. Between cross-border problems and gaming, our community was in turmoil.
We have survived international crises that involved illegal gambling. I mention that because next month a casino will open on the American side of Akwesasne that was negotiated with Washington and New York State. It is fully regulated. We hope that it will provide us with some employment.
We want to look at other forms of economic development. I mentioned the miles of islands on the St. Lawrence. We are in a tourist belt. There are many beautiful islands on the St. Lawrence. The Thousand Islands are just above us. The area is virtually undeveloped and there are many opportunities. Any community that is as close to the border as we are -- we are right on the border -- should be in an advantageous position for economic development; yet, we have none.
We came up with a concept to generate money for ourselves without having to rely always on the Department of Indian Affairs or the Government of Canada. It involves simply being able to govern ourselves, to work out partnership agreements, to have reciprocal arrangements on justice, to create our own institutions or allow greater jurisdiction to the institutions that we have already developed. Having a greater say, a greater jurisdiction, a greater partnership, would solve the smuggling problems.
In that media clipping, there are all kinds of headlines: "Canadian smuggler admits he conspired to ship cocaine"; "RCMP nab gun-runners"; "Illegal alien smuggling ring worth $280M."
In 1994, the Prime Minister had to stand up in Parliament and announce that Canada was losing an estimated $1 billion a year from the smuggling of contraband cigarettes back into the country. That amount is enormous. We had previously asked the government to create a Mohawk border patrol that would work with them, to expand our police forces, to give us greater say in areas of law enforcement. They said, "Go back to Akwesasne. We are in charge. We will take care of your community." We went through hell, we survived a civil war, but we are back to say, "We told you."
That editorial says that natives must end smuggling. The natives did not create that situation. People on the outside at both ends -- Canada and the United States -- enticed us. Our people were used as pawns. A few people got rich, but it was the tobacco executives, the companies and other groups that became the millionaires. Our community is not well off. We are still struggling to create jobs.
We want a partnership with Canada in order to have long-term stability for Akwesasne. We are working with people who are very proud of their heritage and culture and who desire very much to live in a society of law and order. They want these institutions.
I now wish to address what it would mean for Canada if its courts were to say that there is an aboriginal right in border crossing and in trade. I should like to defer now to Mr. Menczer who will explain the court proceeding and tell you how it developed in Canada.
Mr. Micha J. Menczer, Legal Counsel, Mohawk Council, Akwesasne Reserve: Grand Chief Mitchell has outlined a bit of the background of the case and indicated that essentially that was not the Mohawk way. There were numerous representations to Canada and to the parliamentary committee explaining how the Mohawk people understood their border-crossing rights. It did not involve the types of things you read in the headlines. The Grand Chief was given direction by the clan mothers and the community people as to what to take across and what represented the essence of their border-crossing rights and therefore did not require the payment of duties to Canada because of historical practices. Those were ordinary household goods: foodstuffs, books, blankets, washing machines -- things for community sustenance. When he was asked where those goods were destined, he said they were going to work with other aboriginal peoples to help their neighbouring communities, as had been the historic case.
That was explained to the court in a trial that lasted nearly 40 days and resulted in a 105-page decision. The judge understood. It did not mean that the Mohawk people did not believe that they have also a broader right. That is not what we are asking the court, nor what was asked of Canada. We were successful in that case because it is right and because we were understood.
We went back to Canada and the grand chief said, "We have done what you asked. We have gone to the courts, and they said that we have this right." However, the government appealed the case. Then we argued our case in front of the Federal Court of Appeal and again were successful. The Federal Court of Appeal said that the trial judge was right and clarified the situation somewhat by saying that our dealings are really with our neighbouring First Nations in Ontario and Quebec.
We tried to establish with Canada the way the relationship would work. The information package shows in greater detail the areas where they have been able to advance, but there are limitations.
That did not work for two reasons. The first was that Canada was not prepared to instruct its officials to enter into an interim arrangement. Hence, we are before the Supreme Court. We are not afraid of being before the court because we believe that the decisions are strong and correct. That does not mean that the Mohawk people are simply awaiting the court's decision. They have acted on this.
As is made clear in your package, the Mohawk view the border-crossing rights as rights that also carry with them responsibilities for the proper governance and jurisdiction of those rights. When you read the material, you will see that the Mohawk view is a relationship with Canada based on peace, friendship and respect. The rights have been talked about in that manner, and efforts for the past 10 years have been made in that regard.
What is meant by responsibility? You have heard Chief Mitchell describe examples in terms of justice, the Mohawk police and the proposed border patrol. The Mohawk people have passed numerous laws, even without Canada's consent, which they are implementing in their community in order to license activities in an effort to regulate them.
The concept of an Akwesasne trade house will be presented to council probably this month. It will be a community-member regulating body that will consider trading activities with other First Nations to determine if they are appropriate, if they are in the community interest and if they are within the view of how the Mohawk people see their rights. If they are, they will be sanctioned and they will go forward.
The other side is that Akwesasne enters into agreements with other First Nations. The border-crossing rights are essentially trading activities. Other First Nations are not in a vacuum. There is a relationship with other First Nations. One of the first agreements entered into was with the neighbouring Mohawk community of Kahnawake. We have provided you with a copy of that trading agreement.
The last line paragraph 6 and the first line of paragraph 7 of that agreement got mixed up, and I would not mind clarifying that because it is an important document.
Paragraph 6 should read:
Any and all transactions governed by this Trading Agreement and any and all goods traded pursuant to this Trading Agreement, shall not be subject to the imposition of duty, taxes or levies by any external government.
Paragraph 7 should read:
This Trading Agreement may be amended with the mutual consent of Akwesasne and Kahnawake, to include additional goods or services that may be required by either Council or their respective communities.
When you read that document, you see the nature of what is being discussed. As well, an important two-page declaration of trading rights between First Nations is attached. Those are principles that the communities of Akwesasne and Kahnawake have made to guide themselves as well as other First Nations.
In the document, there is talk not only about rights, but also about a responsible exercise of those rights. However, when we have discussed this with Canada, we have run into a brick wall. It is important that this information be known.
In your kit, you also have a letter to the Liberal Party from Grand Chief Mitchell and his council. We have seen our border-crossing rights acknowledged on a political level as well as enforced in the courts on a bureaucratic level. The Liberal Party, in its internal mandate, passed a resolution supporting economic development, ratification of the Jay Treaty and border rights. Yet the Liberal Party has not brought that forward as part of the government's mandate. The community does not understand how the need seems correct, yet the government has taken no action.
Chief Mitchell talked about the Jay Treaty. Article III, which deals with the border-crossing right, is the only article remaining to be ratified. For Chief Mitchell and the community to ask that your committee support ratification of Article III is not a new idea. In 1983, the Penner report, commonly known as the Parliamentary Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, recommended that Parliament ratify the Jay Treaty and immediately pass implementing legislation. However, that has not been done.
The community's perspective is that those rights are there. Two courts have seen them. The Liberals have agreed to them and the parliamentary committee indicated that the treaty should be ratified. Yet, that important element is still missing.
I believe the documents demonstrate how we are capable of moving forward in the area of governance, and we are looking for the support of the committee.
Mr. Russell Roundpoint, Intergovernmental Liaison Officer, Kahnawake Reserve: Honourable senators, I am pleased to be here to support our brothers in Akwesasne. I will not take much time because I believe representatives from Kahnawake will be making their own presentation to this committee at another date.
I should like to speak to the issue of trading and this particular agreement. The community of Kahnawake has gone through strife and turmoil, as has our sister community of Akwesasne. In 1988, there was a joint Royal Canadian Mounted Police and provincial police raid in our community. Many people were arrested. Tobacco, money and records were seized.
At that point in our history, our community mandated the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake to negotiate at all levels of government for the protection of our territorial, economic and political jurisdiction. On the basis of that mandate, the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake moved to enter into framework agreements with Canada. We have been negotiating with Canada since 1991.
Since 1995, we have been negotiating with the Province of Quebec. Since 1993, in more particular and relative terms, we have been negotiating with other Mohawk communities to establish some of the original relationships we had that would provide for the exercise and the assertion of our jurisdiction relative to one another. In the joint exercise of that jurisdiction and the assertion of our rights, we would be in a better position to defend, protect, define and ensure that the Canadian government, the provincial governments, the state governments and other First Nations understood the reality of Mohawk nationhood and sovereignty.
Many other elements are tied to this trade agreement. It is for commerce. It is for business. It is for good relations. It is a test. It is an effort to check and balance ourselves. It is also to find out what kind of reaction we will get from the federal and provincial governments. They have their own self-imposed tariffs and regulations for inter-provincial trade and commerce on some of the things that we are talking about in our agreement.
How can a government introduce a policy that encourages international free trade amongst indigenous people and then almost forbid, or put barriers in the way of, inter-nation and inter-tribal trade within Canadian boundaries? That is what we are testing. Kahnawake will be there, alongside our brothers and sisters in Akwesasne, to defend this agreement. We will implement it, we will apply it and, if someone wishes to challenge it, we will defend it.
Chief Mike Mitchell: I wish to finish by talking about justice and, more specifically, the need to have a lawful society. As the Iroquois, the Mohawk peoples, our whole history and our being are based on the notion of a peacemaker coming to our territories and establishing the great law of peace.
We had aboriginal governments in North America as far back as 1,000 years ago. At the time of contact, women elected the leaders and a man could be a leader only for as long as he did a good job. He was given three warnings and the third time the women took him out. As long as he was a good leader, we did not have elections for perhaps two or four years. It was a unique, creative society with many checks and balances. Truth, justice, and power were the blend of society back then. They also respected their creator.
From 1888 to 1899, within the context of that society, Canada started to push to bring democracy to Akwesasne. They brought in an elective system under the Indian Act. For 100 years our people have been resisting, trying to go back to that true aboriginal concept of governance. Along with governing, you must have respect, not only for the people in the environment, but also for mother earth. That is our traditional teaching.
The elective system of the Indian Act taught us greed, taught us that one must override and overpower the other and that the mighty will survive. Our sense of who we are was lost. It has been a struggle to maintain. Regarding governance, our answer to the Royal Commission and to the Department of Indian Affairs is a blend of traditional concepts and the modern reality in which we live; it is centuries old principles that can be applied today.
I should like to invite our justice representative, Chief Vaughn Phillips, to share with you some of those issues in the justice area in Akwesasne, within the limited scope of the Indian Act, what the people have been able to do for themselves.
Chief Vaughn Phillips, Akwesasne Reserve: I hold the justice portfolio in Akwesasne. We realized many years ago that we could not wait for that delegated authority. We needed to develop our own laws for our people in Akwesasne. We needed to move beyond the parameters established by section 107 of the Indian Act. We needed to adjudicate the laws that we enacted within our community and then we needed to get our police to enforce those laws within our community.
We did all of this with little or no financial support from the federal or provincial governments. We had to do it because it was mandated by the people. It was the direction of the people. We have those capacities right now. A legislative branch of our justice system is developing our laws, combining the traditional and the contemporary so that it is truly Akwesasne's law that will govern Akwesasne. We have a court system that is more than just a judge. We have diversion programs, lands tribunals and mediation panels. We are trying to encompass every aspect of the adjudication of justice. As mentioned, we have our police to enforce those laws.
Now we need reciprocal agreements with the federal and provincial governments so that if we deem that a person should be jailed off our territory, then the Quebec government or the Ontario government will assist us.
Currently, there is a calm and a peace in the Akwesasne territory. I am sure that the federal government would like to take credit for that by having flooded the area with RCMP officers in Cornwall and surrounding areas. However, we like to believe that that peace, that calm, was instilled by our people, by our elders giving direction to council and to the community, because we do believe in justice in Akwesasne. We do believe in a calm, peaceful, safe community.
Chief Mike Mitchell: This is a short presentation on a very controversial community. To give you a flip side of our perspective on our situation, we are talking about concepts and ideas that do not necessarily depend on the Department of Indian Affairs, on living in a welfare state or on a handout from Canada. We are talking about equality, equal ideas and respect for each other, a true partnership.
To have a community like ours, which is unlike any other community in North America, native or non-native, is a difficult situation no matter what kind of leadership you have. Canada needs to invest in Akwesasne. In order to maintain that stability, Canada needs to take a partnership role and to be supportive in many areas, including law enforcement and the traditions of our people.
The peace and calm that exist on the St. Lawrence River are a result of the elders who are sitting behind me. Those people declared war on the drugs that pass through our territories. The community made a drug law for the Mohawks of Akwesasne. We will be voting on that law this spring. That law must be supported by Canada. We must work with outside agencies, both American and Canadian. There is a purpose for banishing drugs and drug dealers from our community, for the community to take over control and provide for safety and law.
We have shared with you some of our concepts and efforts in the area of governance, in the area of people taking responsibility for themselves and their community and living in a very hard way. History shows that we have had difficult circumstances. We are saying the same thing that Canada is saying: In order to survive, in order to have peace, we must have respect for law and order and for each other.
The trouble is that those laws were imposed on us. They had no respect for our traditions and values. We want to back it up. If we can have that blend, if we can modernize our traditions, if we can truly accept our responsibilities, then we can go back to that headline and say, "It is not the natives who must stop smuggling. We all must do our part." We did not put that international boundary or the provincial and state borders where they are now. We did not ask for them. They were put there to divide our people. They have done an awfully good job.
That is the essence of our presentation.
Senator Chalifoux: Thank you for your most interesting presentation. The Blackfoot Nation in Alberta and other nations in British Columbia have the same issues. They are cross-border, also. The only difference is that those nations have been divided. Families live on one side of the border or the other. As an aboriginal woman and an elder, I have been looking at many of these issues.
Have you gotten together with any of the other nations across Canada to discuss the cross-border issues that you share? In Blackfoot country in Alberta, Harley Frank was charged with cross-border selling of grain. His grain and his truck were confiscated. That matter is going before the court now. That is part of the Jay Treaty issue. I read of a similar case in British Columbia.
We also have an aboriginal free trade organization from the U.S. and Canada. I was a speaker there. Have you been involved with any of that?
Chief Mike Mitchell: We have been involved in all segments. We were invited to the conference on aboriginal trade in Calgary. We hosted, here in Ottawa, a conference on border crossing and trade in December 1997. Many representatives from aboriginal nations across Canada attended. As a matter of fact, there have been many requests for us to host another one as this is moving along.
We had speakers who worked on NAFTA in the U.S. and Canada. The conference was an attempt to look at the way things are done globally and across the North American continent and to examine the question of aboriginal trade and how you take responsibility. Akwesasne has been a forerunner in promoting the concepts of a national trade policy and an indigenous involvement in trade.
Senator Chalifoux: How far has that gone? Is there an action plan from the conferences? Is there any positive movement towards being able to negotiate with all levels of government on a policy that you have created?
Chief Mike Mitchell: Yes. A number of nations and tribes have collectively put together a declaration that interprets what those rights should stand for and how they should be exercised and describes how our relations with others should be. A collection of ideas and positions has been put together for political negotiations.
Senator Chalifoux: How far has that negotiating gone?
Chief Mike Mitchell: This is a relatively new concept in Canada. We have been requested to tell different aboriginal groups what we are doing. It always turns into a conference of sorts because many people tend to get together and exchange ideas.
As we said earlier, we know the rights exist, but how do we interpret them now? What is Canada hearing? What are their concerns? When those things are discussed, it is much easier to say that we can exercise and interpret our rights in this manner. That is the work we are doing now.
Senator Chalifoux: There are stand-alone police forces on reserves in Alberta where the RCMP are not involved. Do you have the same thing? If so, where are you getting the funding?
Mr. Roundpoint: The Akwesasne police force is a stand-alone unit. It has a complement of 21 people, including several female constables. We work out a quadrilateral agreement with Canada, Quebec, Ontario and Akwesasne once every three years and the funding is derived from that. They have the responsibility of enforcing community law and they have the extra burden of enforcing federal laws as well as Ontario and Quebec laws. It is quite a cumbersome task for them.
Senator Chalifoux: Are they recognized?
Mr. Roundpoint: Yes, they are.
Senator Chalifoux: That is very important because it is part of self-government. Bill C-49, the First Nations Land Management Bill, will be coming into the Senate shortly. Fourteen nations will be involved. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. Menczer: Akwesasne is aware of that legislation. They have had discussions with some of the chiefs involved and they have good relations with those chiefs. At the present time, however, Akwesasne has chosen not to become involved in that legislation for a variety of reasons to do with Akwesasne's priorities. Land management is an issue in Akwesasne but it is not as high a priority as the areas that have been described here.
The declaration of trading rights was a result of Akwesasne's cross-border conference where First Nations came from across the country. It was developed at that time and sent back for individual communities to consider and adopt. Akwesasne and Kahnawake have incorporated that in their agreement. That work continues.
Senator Pearson: Thank you very much for what I found to be a compelling presentation. It was extremely interesting and important. I am glad that you were able to come here today and share that it with us. I am not sure what we will be able to do as a Senate. If you think you have a bad reputation, ours is a lot worse! But we are trying to do significant things here.
Has the Supreme Court accepted your case?
Mr. Menczer: Briefly, Canada has requested leave to appeal. We have filed our response to that. Obviously, we are not in support of that; we think it has been long enough and we are waiting for the court's determination as to whether or not they will hear the case. The Court of Appeal was strong in supporting the trial judge. We shall see. It is a novel case. We are still waiting to hear.
Senator Pearson: If the Supreme Court does not hear it, does the judgment stand in your favour?
Mr. Menczer: That is correct.
Senator Pearson: That would be the most immediate outcome.
Mr. Menczer: That would be the most immediate and best outcome and we are satisfied with the decision of the Court of Appeal.
Senator Pearson: I have a question about education. I was interested in the clear evolution of the capacity within your area, but there is something I did not quite understand. Did you say that you have 350 students in post-secondary institutions?
Mr. Garrow: Yes.
Senator Pearson: Where are they studying?
Mr. Garrow: About 55 per cent are studying at universities and colleges in the United States and about 45 per cent are in Canada.
Senator Pearson: Do the Americans have problems with that?
Mr. Garrow: None whatsoever. We provide a subsidy for students attending American universities and colleges. The students themselves are obliged to use various bursaries, grants, et cetera, because of the U.S. exchange.
Senator Pearson: That is very encouraging.
Mr. Garrow: It is. We look upon them as a resource returning to our community: teachers, environmentalists, biologists, scientists, et cetera. We are looking at getting into economics and accounting. There are a number of students studying that in both the United States and Canada.
Senator Pearson: That is great. Are some students in secondary school in Cornwall?
Mr. Garrow: Yes. About 250 students are in General Vanier High School, which, unfortunately, is scheduled to be closed. Other students are attending other schools in Cornwall. Some are attending private schools.
Senator Pearson: Would you like to have a school in your own community?
Mr. Garrow: We do have sufficient population to have our own high school in our community. That is part of our planning, but we cannot do it overnight. We are concentrating on special needs and enrichment programs that will assist us.
Senator Pearson: Investment in your young people is the answer for many things in the future.
Mr. Garrow: Yes, it is.
Senator Adams: You are making laws within your community. You said that you have approached Ottawa about that. I should like to know about your legislation. Does Ottawa recognize it, or is it only for your band? How does the system work? I should like to learn more about it. Does the member of Parliament from your area assist you?
Mr. Menczer: The laws are passed by the community, as Chief Vaughn Phillips will indicate as well. They are sent to Indian Affairs as a courtesy. Efforts are made not to create conflict, to see if the wish of the community falls within what Indian Affairs is prepared to accept under its mandate. If it does, the law receives recognition both from the community and from Indian Affairs. If not, the community makes a decision and passes its own law. It believes that, under section 35 of the Constitution, it has the inherent right to do that. Canada has accepted that position and the laws are enforced on that basis.
Efforts are made to cooperate and to find a ground where the law can have as much recognition as possible. Chief Phillips may wish to add a bit about the process.
Chief Phillips: We currently have a four-phase process for enacting laws within our community. The basis of the law is brought to the legislative committee by the people. Working with a lawyer, the legislative committee develops the backbone of that law. Once it is fully developed, it is presented to council before it goes to the community.
An example is the drug banishment law. We have been working on that for over a year. It has gone before the community at no less than 20 meetings with elders, youth, women and men. We have received considerable input. Each time it is brought to the community, we get different ideas for changes to the law.
We are in the last phase of the law enactment process with the drug banishment law. On April 8, we will have a special general meeting in Akwesasne. At that time, depending upon the number of people who attend the meeting, the Mohawk Council will have three choices. We can enact the law then and there; we can reject the law then and there; or, if it is the choice of the people at the meeting, we can have a referendum on that law and the entire community can decide upon it. Because this law has such enormous ramifications -- banishment from the community -- I believe that it will go back to the entire community to decide.
Senator Adams: Has Indian Affairs accepted any of the laws that the community has passed?
Chief Phillips: They have told us on a number of occasions that they do not even want to know what we are doing, that we should just do it.
Senator Adams: Are your laws recognized between Canada and the United States?
Chief Mike Mitchell: This law, which is very important to the community, will be voted on by both the American and the Canadian sides of Akwesasne. I predict that Indian Affairs will not accept it and that Justice will have a problem with it.
That is a shame because it could wipe out a $1-billion illegal industry. The American authorities see the value in Akwesasne tackling this problem. With the assistance of our elders and our families, we have declared war on drugs in Akwesasne. We have utilized our ancient traditions in order to put drug dealers out of business. That is why this law is so important.
There is a lack of cultural understanding and sensitivity in the country. We are asking that you please understand what we are doing, but we are being told that we do not fit into the way the federal government does business.
There is a lot of work to be done. Both the American and the Canadian sides of Akwesasne have been mandated to call for a vote to enact this law on drug banishment.
Senator Cochrane: I am interested in the arrangement that you have with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You say that some of your people are working with the Ontario RCMP office and the Quebec RCMP office. Is that the way your operation works?
Chief Raymond Mitchell, Akwesasne Reserve: I hold the police portfolio. In regards to major crime, smuggling of drugs, aliens and guns, our police agency is working with the RCMP, the OPP, la Sûreté du Québec, the American forces, New York State Police, DEA, federal forces, and so on. We first presented the idea of working together verbally, and it was something that they were reluctant to accept. We put it on paper in black and white. Once they saw the direction that we wanted to go, it became a struggle. Every other agency wanted to take ownership of this because it laid out a path for how to rid our community of drugs, guns and alien smuggling.
We do have a working relationship with them. We have even gone so far as to have secondments where one of our officers will work with the RCMP for a while and one of their officers will work with us. As an example of how far we have progressed, during the recent ice storm, we had RCMP officers patrolling our territory in our police cars. Our police officers assisted on the U.S. side of Akwesasne. They were a small agency that was overworked and over burdened, so they had to take a couple of days off.
We look at Akwesasne as one community with no border. We assisted. We had RCMP there. That was new for Akwesasne. Not too long ago, it was not accepted to have outside police forces in Akwesasne.
Senator Cochrane: It seems to me that that would be the right approach to take. Are you in favour of that same approach with other departments? Senator Pearson mentioned education. Do you have the same arrangement in that department? Do you have discussions and agreements with Quebec, Ontario, New York State, and so on with regard to your other departments?
Chief Raymond Mitchell: I forgot to mention earlier that our police have cross-appointments with Ontario, Quebec, and federal forces. They are recognized by each province as police officers. When they complete their schooling, they come back and are sworn in by Quebec, by Ontario and by Akwesasne as well. In essence, they are sworn in three times.
Senator Cochrane: Regardless of that, it seems to me that that is an acceptable arrangement since everyone seems to be united and working together and in the same framework, and so on. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to be the way to go. I think it is a good arrangement.
What about your other departments? Tell me about your education department.
Chief Mike Mitchell: To answer your question quickly, it is a matter of jurisdiction; it is a matter of Ottawa recognizing the situation that exists at international levels.
I will tell you of a situation that happened within the last six months. I brought to Ottawa the state prosecutor for New York State, a United States customs immigration officer, a border patrol officer and supervisor, and the United States attorney investigators. We had a two- or three-hour meeting with the Deputy Minister of Indian Affairs, and he brought in other deputy ministers from Justice. They were completely unaware of the information that we brought in regarding what exists around Akwesasne from the American side. Some high-level Mafia criminal-types were being arrested for involvement in drug smuggling in the area. It was their records on the American side, working with Akwesasne Mohawks. That example convinced them that, yes, you can involve Akwesasne in many of these efforts.
We must try to continue working and pressing Ottawa. We tell them, "It is far better if you work with us and include us in the things that must be done." In the past, they have gone out and done an activity in policing and painted Akwesasne with one brush, saying, "You are all criminals." Information was denied to our police, our justice, our council, and generally people in the community because we were all suspects. We have now come back, and in the community we started making one successful change after another. They are beginning to see the change.
We are starting to see the establishment of that trust with the RCMP. We have many points in common. Sometimes respect for our work is grudging, but it is getting better. However, we have a long way to go.
Senator Cochrane: That is what I wanted to hear. I am glad it is getting better. Like everything, no matter where you are or who you are, you will have conflicts, but as long as it gets better, that is good. You must work at making it better. I am glad to hear you say that, Grand Chief.
Chief Mike Mitchell: Canada has refused to recognize Mohawk jurisdiction. They assume that they have priority in all areas and that they have jurisdiction. That has pushed back Mohawk involvement. It has hindered progress in many areas. We have slowly been making progress in promoting joint initiatives and efforts by asserting our jurisdiction and showing by example.
Senator Cochrane: You mentioned your annual budget of $58 million. I am not aware of how your organization is set up. How much money do you get from the federal government for your annual budget?
Chief Mike Mitchell: Roughly $45 million comes from the federal government, and it is in administration. We use the money for education, health, social programs, welfare and so on. We administer those dollars.
Mr. Menczer: I wish to clarify one thing. That money is not simply given to Akwesasne. For example, a significant amount of that money might be to administer housing or education or social assistance. If that money were not administered by the Mohawk government of Akwesasne, it would be spent by the Department of Indian Affairs or Health Canada in administering the same things. Basically, it is administration.
Senator Cochrane: I am not suggesting otherwise, but this money is given to you people to manage, to go towards your different departments and to help your people in various ways; is it not?
Mr. Menczer: Yes, it is, with many restrictions. How it could be more effectively managed is perhaps a subject for another day.
Senator Gill: Can you tell us a bit about your health services? We have not yet heard about that.
Ms Lucy Papineau, Director of Health, Akwesasne Reserve: The Department of Social Development and Health has a staff of 285 people. We are proud of our various facilities. We have a 30-bed chronic care facility in Ontario, a 30-bed home for the aged in Quebec, a clinic in Ontario and one in Quebec, and a dental clinic. Our various health programs cover prevention to tertiary care. Our social programs address community and social needs. We also have three daycare centres.
However, we are challenged day-to-day in our legislation and jurisdictional boundaries because of our unique geographical situation. Our professionals are governed by a legislative body in the province in which they practice and cannot go from one province to the other unless they are registered in both provinces. Sometimes our physicians do not belong to the Quebec association and they refuse to see our clients. We have a two-province health care system, meaning OHIP and the Quebec Hospital Insurance Plan. As you can see, we are constantly faced with challenges and constraints.
Our long-term goal is to have our own Mohawk health legislation in order to enjoy the best of both worlds and to be able to legislate our own professionals. We want to have our own health card combining the Quebec and Ontario systems to meet the needs of our community. In April 1997, the Mohawk Council negotiated with Health Canada and we transferred our health care. We now have control of our health care system. Through that system we have an evaluation process that can go out into the community to address the needs of the people.
The Chairman: As Senator Pearson said, like you, we in the Senate have a problem with our reputation, a perception that has been generated by the media.
Until I began to communicate with the leaders of the affected community, I did not have a clear understanding of the situation. I am sure that the same lack of awareness, knowledge and understanding affects the general public of Canada. Where do we go when that is the case? I think we have a long road ahead of us -- not only with your particular problems but with regard to the whole concept of governance and jurisdiction. Today, the way the Constitution reads, there are only two levels of order in this country: the federal government and the provinces.
I was directly involved from the beginning in the negotiations to bring the Constitution to Canada. There are reasons why section 35 is in the Constitution. The aboriginal people know why it is there. The government also knows why section 35 was enshrined within the Constitution. At times, however, they pretend to forget or do not want to remember.
We have a long road ahead of us, but we are trying to find a way. I know that you are still in the court and that you are giving the Government of Canada one more chance. However, it is no longer a question of whether or not the rights exist. It has more to do with obtaining recognition and whether that recognition is applied only to a geographical area or to aboriginal people across the country.
The Mohawks are carrying a huge responsibility on behalf of all aboriginal nations in this country. We know that we must educate the general public of Canada. Can we, as aboriginal groups, try to hammer the general public of Canada with that one item in such a way that they can understand? We must make it crystal clear that we are trying not to obstruct the system but to improve the system to make it work for them and for us. If that is the case, when the Government of Canada feels that they have exhausted their avenues for fighting this battle, they will have to establish some mechanism to communicate with us. As you mentioned, the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne is ready to pursue negotiations with the federal government. Perhaps this committee can zero in on that to expedite matters and to move the government to pay attention to this issue by establishing a negotiating table. Would it be acceptable to you if we try to push that forward on your behalf? It ties directly into the governance issue that we are studying. I should like to hear your comments on that.
Chief Mike Mitchell: You would be most welcome and appreciated.
The Chairman: It would be useful if you could become a member of the workforce that we are trying to develop on governance with an economic base. We want something that we can hold up to the general public of Canada and say, "This is what we are talking about." I think trade is very much a part of that. You are welcome to become part of the process.
The committee adjourned.