Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Banking, Trade and
Commerce
Issue 16 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, May 14, 1998
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, to which was referred Bill C-4, to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, met this day at 10:09 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Leonard J. Gustafson (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Senators, we will proceed with the clause-by-clause study of the bill.
Senator Taylor: I move:
That Bill C-4, in Clause 3, be amended by replacing lines 17 to 21 on page 5 with the following:
3.09 (1) The president is appointed by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister and holds office during pleasure for the term that the Governor in Council may determine.
(2) The Minister may recommend that a person be appointed president only if
(a) the Minister has consulted the board with respect to
(i) the qualifications required of the president; and
(ii) the person whom the Minister is proposing to recommend; and
(b) the board has fixed the remuneration to be paid to the president and has informed the Minister of the remuneration.
(3) Notwithstanding the other provisions of this section, the Governor in Council may appoint a transitional president and fix the remuneration to be paid to him or her. The transitional president's term may not end more than one year after the coming into force of this subsection.
3.1 (1) The president is paid the remuneration fixed in accordance with paragraph 3.09(2)(b) or subsection 3.09(3).
I also move:
That Bill C-4, in clause 3, be amended by replacing lines 12 to 14 on page 3 with the following:
appointed by the Governor in Council in accordance with section 3.09.
The Chairman: Are those amendments agreed to, senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Stratton: I move:
That Bill C-4 be amended
(a) on page 10, by adding immediately after line 3 the following:
8.1 Within two years after the day this section comes into force, the Auditor General of Canada may commence an audit of the accounts and financial transactions of the Corporation for such fiscal years as the Auditor General considers appropriate and a report of the audit shall be made to the Corporation and the Minister; and
(b) in clause 36, on page 24, by replacing line 1 with the following:
tion 6(2) of this Act, and sections 8.1, 11, 27 and
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Hays: I do not know about Senator Sparrow.
The Chairman: Agreed, on division.
I should like to move the inclusion-exclusion clause.
Senator Taylor: Perhaps Senator Whelan could take the chair while you are doing that.
Senator Eugene Whelan (Deputy Chairman) in the Chair.
Senator Gustafson: I move:
That Bill C-4 be amended by adding
(a) after line 34 on page 18, the following:
26. Section 47 of the Act and the headings before it are replaced by the following:
PART V
OTHER GRAINS
Application of Parts III and IV
47. (1) The Governor in Council may, by regulation, on the recommendation of the Minister, extend the application of Part III or of Part IV or of both Parts III and IV to barley.
(2) Where the Governor in Council has extended the application of any Part under subsection (1), the provisions of that Part shall be deemed to be re-enacted in this Part, subject to the following:
(a) the word "barley" shall be substituted for the word "wheat";
(b) the expression "barley products" shall be substituted for the expression "wheat products"; and
(c) subsection 40(2) is not applicable.
(3) An extension of the application of Part III shall come into force only at the beginning of a crop year.
(4) For the purposes of this section, "product", in relation to barley, means any substance produced by processing or manufacturing barley, alone or together with any other material or substance, designated by the Governor in Council by regulation as a product of barley for the purposes of this Part.
(5) The Minister shall not make a recommendation referred to in subsection (1) unless
(a) the Minister has consulted with the board about the extension; and
(b) the producers of barley have voted in favour of the extension, the voting process having been determined by the Minister.
47.1 The Minister shall not cause to be introduced in Parliament a bill that would exclude any kind, type, class or grade of wheat or barley, or wheat or barley produced in any area in Canada, from the provisions of Part IV, either in whole or in part, or generally, or for any period, or that would extend the application of Part III or Part IV or both Parts III and IV to any other grain, unless
(a) the Minister has consulted with the board about the exclusion or extension; and
(b) the producers of the grain have voted in favour of the exclusion or extension, the voting process having been determined by the Minister.
(b) on page 19, delete lines 1 to 36; and
(c) on page 20, delete lines 1 to 38.
The Deputy Chairman: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Leonard J. Gustafson (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Whelan.
Are there any other proposed amendments?
Senator Taylor: I do not think there are any further amendments, Mr. Chairman, but there may be one or two recommendations for the report.
Senator Hays: The only change to the report is the deletion of the provisions with respect to a five-year review.
Have you some substitute language?
It would be appropriate to move the adoption of the balance of the report.
Senator Taylor: I move that the bill be reported, as amended.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the draft report be adopted, as amended?
Senator Spivak: I do not wish to delay the process, but I would like to see the report prior to two o'clock.
Senator Stratton: Perhaps we should very quickly indicate the changes that have been made to the report.
Mr. Audcent: With respect to the section 47 amendment, is it your intention to replace the existing text with the new text?
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Audcent: That is fine.
The Chairman: We have the new report or the changes that have been made before us. Jean-Denis, will you give us the highlights?
Mr. Jean-Denis Fréchette, Researcher, Library of Parliament: Page 5 of the draft report 1 will be amended again. The amendment at the bottom of the page will be replaced by the amendment that you just voted on. With regard to the section on electoral process, as you can see, you have your recommendation as agreed to yesterday, and the text of the clause has been eliminated.
Senator Spivak: Are you on page 5?
Mr. Fréchette: I am on page 7 now. That recommendation was amended yesterday by saying that five directors could be elected from Saskatchewan. I am now on page 7 of the draft report. In the first paragraph, there was just a line added.
Senator Spivak: Where?
Mr. Fréchette: Page 7, under eligible voters. There was no change, no amendment made on the campaign spending limits. In the section on the Auditor General, some cosmetic changes were made in the first paragraph, which begins by saying, "It became apparent during the committee's hearings that," and so on.
You have the new text of the amendment there. The one you have now is the old one, so that will be replaced in the final draft, on page 9. That has to be replaced because you just made an amendment.
Senator Sparrow: On page 8, with regard to the Auditor General, the last sentence reads in part "that the Auditor General be the auditor of the Corporation." That was not the intent.
Mr. Fréchette: No.
Senator Sparrow: Should we change that? Was that the intent, though, that the Auditor General be the auditor or that he audit?
Senator Taylor: Some witnesses said that.
Senator Hays: It is just a comment on what we heard.
Senator Stratton: That is the reason for the amendment, for transparency.
The Chairman: For clarification, the next paragraph reads, "The committee believes that some role for the Auditor General would enhance the transparency and the accountability of the Canadian Wheat Board..." I think that is the important paragraph there.
Mr. Fréchette: Back to page 10, regarding responsibility, some cosmetic changes were made yesterday.
On the contingency fund, both recommendations are there. They will be part of the recommendations to be included in the regulations of the bill.
Senator Spivak: Are you on page 12?
Mr. Fréchette: Yes.
Senator Spivak: Here is the sentence: "Although it would be the responsibility of the proposed board of directors to manage the risk associated with the three uses of the proposed fund, and to decide how that fund would be financed, the committee strongly believes that farmers should have some protection with respect to how much money they might be called upon to contribute."
I do not know what is meant by that.
Senator Taylor: I think it is just that it will be limited to the $30 million, so that we cannot continue to build it up to $100 million.
Senator Spivak: You are saying it should not be more than $30 million but that they should still put the money in?
Senator Taylor: That does not mean that $30 million cannot be raised from profits or any other method. It just says that there should be a limit as to how much we should take from the farmers, if we take any. It does not say they have to take any.
The Chairman: This enhances the recommendation of the $30 million cap.
Senator Hays: We heard from the minister that that is the intention at this point, in terms of regulation, using initially that cap.
Senator Whelan: If I understand correctly, regarding this insignificant $30 million -- I do not want to sound like C.D. Howe: "What's a million, or what's a billion?" -- there is nothing in this bill that stops the government from actually putting a fund in there, if they wanted.
Senator Spivak: There is nothing in there at the moment, it is true.
Senator Taylor: They might have to do that to win the next election.
Senator Spivak: I hope so.
Senator Whelan: We got Saskatchewan to one member. I do not know what they want.
Mr. Fréchette: With regard to the inclusion and exclusion of grains, on page 13, there were two minor cosmetic changes made in the text. You have, at the bottom of page 14, the amendment that was included in the clause-by-clause.
Senator Hays: I wonder if we could look to our counsel on this. There was a comment a moment ago that we wanted to be sure that we had done this cleanly. Are you satisfied that we have?
Mr. Audcent: Are we on the inclusion-exclusion issue?
Senator Hays: Yes.
Mr. Audcent: Yes, there were two issues. One was to ensure that we understood that we were replacing, and not just adding, some material. The second one is that the notes provided to the committee indicate that the adoption of this amendment now requires that clause 24 of the bill be repealed.
The Chairman: This is reverting to the clause-by-clause?
Mr. Audcent: Yes.
The Chairman: Do you wish to do that now?
Senator Hays: Yes, I think it would be appropriate because we are on that subject now in terms of our report. I think what we have done is correct but we have one more thing to do, and that would be properly done by you.
Senator Taylor: Possibly, senator, just before we go on and finish this report here, with regard to statutory review at the end, I hope it is fairly clear that that is out.
Senator Spivak: That is out.
Senator Stratton: With regard to the comments on dual marketing, what changes are there?
Mr. Fréchette: Page 18, a paragraph was added following the comments on the buy-back.
Senator Stratton: Thank you, I have read it.
Senator Spivak: Wait a minute. We did not say "expand the buy-back program."
Senator Stratton: No, the point was to look after the organic farmers.
Senator Taylor: The word "expand" was to simplify or smooth it out. It was not to expand.
Senator Spivak: You realize that if you expanded the buy-back program, there would be no more Wheat Board. You cannot have that in there. It is not just for organic grains. It is for everything. It is for the millers, too.
The Chairman: It indicates here "for those producing organic grains," on page 18.
Senator Spivak: I understand that, but it says "particularly for those producing organic grains." You will recall that the buy-back program is also an irritant for the millers. It says "particularly for those producing organic grains" but it is not exclusively for them. "Therefore the committee urges the proposed board be directed to examine and expand." It is not to expand. It is to make it work.
Senator Taylor: I certainly support Senator Spivak. It should read to "examine and simplify."
Senator Spivak: Make it so that it works.
Senator Taylor: Why not "examine and simplify"?
Mr. Fréchette: What if we just strike "and expand" and leave the rest of the sentence. It will read: "The committee urges the proposed board of directors to examine the buy back program and to facilitate its administration."
The Chairman: Are we agreed that we remove the word "expand"?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Is there any further explanation on the recommendations?
Mr. Fréchette: That is the end of the report.
Senator Rossiter: The last paragraph, is this is the review of the act?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Hays: Before we finalize this, I wish to have my comfort level raised in terms of this issue of clause 24.
The Chairman: We will revert to that. We need a motion to revert. May I have a motion that the draft report, as amended, be adopted?
Senator Spivak: I so move.
Senator Whelan: Does the committee therefore suggest a statutory five-year review?
Senator Spivak: That is removed.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We need a motion to revert to clause-by-clause.
Senator Hays: I move that we revert to clause-by-clause.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Gustafson: I move that clause 24 be deleted. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Senator Taylor, do you wish to move that the bill be adopted, as amended?
Senator Taylor: Yes, I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Taylor: I now ask for a motion that the chair be authorized to report the bill, as amended, with the observations and recommendations as agreed.
Senator Taylor: I so move.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Taylor: Could I be permitted an editorial comment?
Senator Hays: No.
Senator Taylor: Just a small one. After what happened with hepatitis C and all the phone calls we received, I hope we all stick together and not head for the hills the first time dual marketing gives us hell or anything like that.
The Chairman: I would like to say that this has been an excellent committee.
Hon. Senators: Here, here!
The Chairman: Senator Spivak suggested last evening -- and she and I always agree on everything -- that this has been a very good and well attended committee. The interests of the agriculture community have been well served by this committee.
Senator Whelan: I have found this process very educational. I find change in our society. I find that people who are very strong for progress are also very strong for what we and they have built over a period of years.
I do hope and pray that what we are doing with this bill does not do what some people think it will, destroy the Canadian Wheat Board. The Wheat Board was, and still is, important to the West.
I see what is happening in the United States and what they intend to do with our flood of wheat going to their country. I see what is happening in Ontario. There is still dissension about the Wheat Board. I know we must change some things.
I agree with some of the concern about what we are doing with clause 24 of this bill. I am a strong believer in the right of the producers to have some say in the market-place. There is a big movement to remove them from having that say. The Wheat Board's history has shown it to be one of the most beneficial organizations western farms have ever had.
Senator Spivak: I wish to borrow a phrase from Senator Hays: We should not be brilliant allies of our own grave diggers. I hope that we are enhancing and supporting the Wheat Board here, not hastening its demise.
Senator Hays: In this heady mood that we are in, colleagues, may I add to the fulsome comments and congratulate the chair and all other members of the committee for their patience and good work in coming to the best conclusion we could on this piece of legislation?
The Chairman: Thank you all. We are adjourned to the call of the chair.
The committee adjourned.