Proceedings of the Subcommittee on the
Boreal Forest
Issue 2 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday June 8, 1998
The Subcommittee on the Boreal Forest of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 5:32 p.m. to continue its study on the present state and future of forestry in Canada as it relates to the boreal forest.
Senator Nicholas W. Taylor (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Mr. Ryan and Mr. Wyse are with us today. Please proceed.
Mr. Hugh Ryan, Acting Director, Environment and Natural Resources Directorate, Lands and Environment Branch, Lands and Trust Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: We appear before you today in order to discuss DIAND's programs and policies in relation to First Nations, the North, and the boreal forest.
I shall begin by introducing Mr. Peter Wyse, Manager of Natural Resources in the Environment and Natural Resources Directorate, and Ms Louise Trépanier, Acting Director of the Program Development and Claims Support Directorate.
Department officials appeared before this sub-committee on April 7, 1997. In our opening remarks, we propose to summarize previous comments and provide updates in light of developments since that time.
As we indicated previously, the boreal forests relate directly to the mandate of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in three ways. First, the department administers the cutting and removal of timber from reserve land under the Indian Act. Second, the department supports the economic development of First Nation communities. For many, accessing economic opportunities based on the boreal forest constitutes the primary basis for economic progress. Third, the department manages the forest in the Yukon Territory pursuant to the Territorial Lands Act. I will speak briefly about these three areas, beginning with reserve forests.
Reserves are federal Crown lands set aside for the use and benefit of Indian people. DIAND administers reserves in accordance with the Indian Act. There are approximately 2.7 million hectares of reserve lands, of which about 1.4 million hectares are forested. Reserve forests make up only 0.5 per cent of Canada's forest estate. Almost 500 First Nation communities are located in forest regions. Reserve forests serve a variety of purposes: timber production; firewood; hunting; trapping; gathering; tourism. They are also important to First Nations for cultural and spiritual reasons.
That said, from the perspective of timber production, it is generally acknowledged that these forests are in a poor state. This poor state results from factors such as fires, insects, diseases, and over-cutting. Overcutting is the result of economic pressures on reserve forests. First Nation members typically need firewood. Logging provides jobs and incomes for community members. First Nation councils use timber revenues to address community priorities.
These factors are matched by weak regulatory controls under the Indian Act and Indian Timber Regulations. For example, the Indian Act limits the maximum fine for offences under the Indian Timber Regulations to $100. The fine for removing timber from a reserve without proper authorization is $500.
More significantly, the Indian Act does not provide mechanisms for First Nations to administer and control reserve forests. It does not, for example, allow those First Nations who would wish to do so to issue timber licences and permits.
Reforestation and forest tending can remedy the problems of overcutting.
Some First Nations have established effective forest management programs. However, most First Nations have pressing problems in health, education and social services. It is often difficult for a First Nation council to reinvest its timber revenues into forest management when the benefits from those investments take at least 30 years to materialize.
Several current departmental initiatives address the state of reserve forests. In carrying out the federal government's legal obligations under the Indian Act and the Indian Timber Regulations, the department issues permits and licences for the cutting and removal of reserve timber at the request of First Nation councils. Before issuing timber permits and licences, the department carries out environmental assessments. Permits and licences include provisions for forest regeneration when forestry is the intended long-term land use.
The department takes enforcement actions when it becomes aware of unauthorized activities. In recent years, it has increased resources, clarified policies and procedures, trained staff, and initiated amendments to the Indian Timber Regulations to improve enforceability.
The department continues to explore various option for self-government with First Nations. It recognizes that many First Nation communities can manage the cutting and removal of reserve timber much more effectively than the federal government can.
The department is currently participating in a partnership initiative with the Assembly of First Nations to develop a plan for dealing with activities currently carried out by the department. Possible outcomes of this process could include legislative, regulatory and administrative changes. The Assembly of First Nations has indicated that forestry is a priority.
The department jointly funds and administers the First Nation Forestry Program with the Canadian Forest Service. This program has a five-year budget of $24.9 million. Its purpose is to encourage forest-based economic development. One objective is to increase the capacity of First Nations to manage reserve forests on a sustainable basis. First Nation decision-makers play a major role in determining how program funds are spent. For 1996-97, approximately $2.1 million -- or about 36 per cent of the program budget -- was spent in relation to the sustainable management of reserve forests.
For many First Nations, reserve forests are too small for sustainable, long-term timber harvesting. Reasonable jobs that First Nations access off-reserve forests. Therefore, I would now like to say a few words about departmental activities to assist First Nation access to off-reserve resources of the boreal forest.
As you are aware, most neighbouring off-reserve forests south of the 60th parallel are under provincial jurisdiction. A few First Nations have been successful in accessing off-reserve forest tenures through provincial governments. Accessing off-reserve opportunities remains a struggle for many, however. Further, recent court decisions such as the Delgamuukw case in British Columbia and the Paul case in New Brunswick are having, and will continue to have, a significant impact on issues related to First Nation access to off-reserve resources.
In April 1998, most of Canada's forest ministers as well as industry, environmental and aboriginal leaders signed the Canada Forest Accord. It commits signatories, including most provincial governments, to recognizing and making provision for aboriginal and treaty rights, ensuring the involvement of aboriginals in forest management and decision-making consistent with these rights, and supporting the pursuit of both traditional and modern economic development activities.
The department supports First Nation access to off-reserve opportunities through processes to increase First Nation control over off-reserve lands. We anticipate the addition of at least 940,000 hectares to reserves through Treaty Land Entitlement processes. Much of this land will be in forested areas. The negotiation and implementation of comprehensive land claims are increasing -- and will continue to increase -- First Nation control over off-reserve resources, including boreal forests. The department also supports First Nation access to off-reserve opportunities by funding projects to increase First Nation capacity to participate in forest-based business, and to encourage cooperation and partnerships among First Nations. In 1996-1997, the First Nation Forestry Program expended $2.9 million, representing about 50 per cent of the program expenditures, for these purposes.
The department also supports First Nation negotiations with provinces and industry for access to off-reserve opportunities. These negotiations typically lead to forest management arrangements, forest harvesting contracts, fire-fighting arrangements, silviculture contracts, and co-management arrangements. In 1996-1997, expenditures under the Resource Access Negotiations Program on forestry and resource co-management totalled about $1.9 million, representing about 39 per cent of program expenditures.
In addition to the resource-related programs I have just mentioned, the department provides First Nation communities with core funding for economic development. In 1996-1997, the department expended $47.7 million. Communities in turn expended about 6 per cent on resource management support, which would include forest management activities.
In January of 1998, the federal government presented "Gathering Strength: Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan." Government commitments included the development and implementation of professional development strategies in lands and environmental stewardship, and land and resource management, as well as increased funding for resource initiatives.
I would now like to say a few words about departmental involvement in forests in the North.
The responsibility for forests in the Northwest Territories has been devolved to the Government of the Northwest Territories. Owing to that, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development now administers and controls only the Yukon forest, pursuant to the Yukon Timber Regulations and the Yukon Forest Protection Regulations made under the Territorial Lands Act.
Boreal forest covers about 60 per cent of the Yukon Territory's 48.3 million hectares. This is roughly the forest land base in Manitoba or Saskatchewan. There is a commercial forest potential in 7.5 million hectares. The total area of this productive forest is approximately the same size as the entire forested area of New Brunswick.
During recent years, the department has amended the Yukon Timber Regulations to increase the stumpage fees, introduce a reforestation charge, and include eligibility criteria for permit issuance. Further amendments are presently being developed to respond to the increased interest in commercial logging, the protection of the environment, and the need to support a locally based manufacturing industry in the Yukon. These amendments relate mainly to tenure, stumpage, reforestation, enforcement provisions, environmental protection, and other forest management aspects.
The department has refocused the management of the resource towards sustainable forest management, and towards the enhancement of the forest industry from its previous forest protection orientation. It must also attempt to integrate the varied interests and values while maintaining balance in the ecosystems involved.
In 1996, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development established the Yukon Forestry Advisory Committee to advise on forest issues. It includes representatives from both the federal and territorial governments, the Yukon First Nations, the Yukon forestry industry, and interest groups. This committee has been extensively involved in the development of the proposed amendments to the regulations, and in the ongoing discussions on the development and implementation of a comprehensive forest management policy in the Yukon. Currently, this committee is drafting guidelines for reforestation activities to be carried out this season. The department administers a reforestation program which is funded by industry to regenerate the forest in cut areas.
Currently there is a timber harvesting agreement in the Yukon. It is held by Kaska Forest Resources, a Liard First Nation company. The bulk of the wood harvested to date has been sold in British Columbia. The Liard First Nation took the initiative to develop a forest harvesting training program for its people so that they could participate in the forest industry in British Columbia, Alberta and Yukon. The Champagne, Aishihik, and the Teslin Tlingit Council First Nations have entered the forest and sawmill business in the central and southwestern Yukon.
Fire management is an important aspect in the management of Yukon forests. For this purpose, the Yukon is divided into two zones: A 14.5-million-hectare fire action zone on which all wild fire starts receive initial attack, and a 33.8-million-hectare observation zone where fires are left to burn as natural occurrences.
The Northern Affairs Program continues to contract out fire suppression activities in the Yukon to First Nations. This has led to the establishment of a First Nation fire fighting training program.
The Umbrella Final Agreement for Yukon First Nations determined that 8 per cent of territorial land would be allocated as settlement land. Each First Nation will own, manage, allocate and protect forest resources on its settlement land. Presently, four First Nations have signed final agreements and self-government agreements. The renewable resources councils, established in each of these First Nations, are becoming increasingly involved in Yukon forest management. These councils are established as the primary instrument for local renewable resources management. The minister must consult with the First Nations and the renewable resources councils on all departmental forestry policies and legislation, pesticide or herbicide application, fire-fighting priorities, and in the development of forest management plans.
The Government of Canada is committed to devolving provincial-type powers to the territories. Yukon First Nations are full partners in the devolution talks with the Yukon territorial government and the federal government, and forest management is one of the activities being considered for devolution.
My colleagues and I would be happy to answer any questions.
Senator Chalifoux: I wish to thank you for your presentation. It was very informative. As a Métis who has worked in the North for many years on many issues, this information is good to have.
There are many Métis communities in the northern half of the provinces and also in the territories. What, if anything, have you been able to do for those communities?
Mr. Peter Wyse, Manager, Natural Resources, Environment and Natural Resources Directorate, Lands and Environment Branch, Lands and Trust Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: DIAND's programs focus on First Nation communities. We do not provide programs or services to the Métis.
Senator Chalifoux: Does your department not recognize section 35 of the Constitution, where it says that there are three aboriginal nations in this country: the Inuit, the Métis, and the First Nations?
The Chairman: Would it be fair to say that that has not been drawn to your attention.
Mr. Wyse: Yes.
Senator Chalifoux: In the northern half of Alberta, communities are negotiating land claims. The Lubicon band is one example, and the other is in the Trout Lake area. What is your position on the lands that are being negotiated?
Ms Louise Trépanier, Acting Director, Program Development & Claims Support, Comprehensive Claims Branch, Claims and Indian Government, Department of Indian and Northern Affairs: I am not sure what you mean by our position on the lands.
Senator Chalifoux: What are you doing about the timber and the land in that respect? Your presentation was very good, but can those communities get involved in this? Can they access the economic development training? Can they access the partnerships you say are within those agreements?
Ms Trépanier: The use of lands and resources is under negotiation in all our land claim negotiations. These are tripartite negotiations where the province and the First Nations are represented, as is our department. Lands and resources are definitely being negotiated at those tables.
Senator Chalifoux: Right now, they are just negotiating between the provinces and themselves. I will give you an example.
In the northern part of Alberta, we have a corporation called S-11. The First Nations and the Métis have formed a company to negotiate timber and logging contracts, as well as silviculture and forest management. Are you not involved in that area? Those lands are presently being negotiated. Companies such as ALPAC and Diashowa are in there. How are you dealing with all the large companies and the First Nations that seem to be squeezed?
The Chairman: To perhaps broaden your question, does Bill S-11 include both Métis and native bands?
Senator Chalifoux: That is correct.
Mr. Wyse: In the situations you are speaking about, we refer to the Resource Access Negotiations Program, which provides funding to the First Nations to negotiate arrangements with companies and the provinces. The basic approach of the federal government is to support First Nations by providing them with this funding, which allows them to hire negotiators, facilitators, lawyers and professionals.
Senator Chalifoux: The sad part about this is that families in those areas are completely separated. Some families are classed as Métis. Brothers and sisters are Treaty Indians, and yet they are brothers and sisters. It is a tragic situation when one brother can obtain access to money for development and training and the other brother must live in poverty. This is the issue. It is happening up there. How is your department dealing with that?
Mr. Wyse: I do not think we have a very good answer for that question.
Senator Chalifoux: That is the reality. That is happening up there.
I understand that the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is only recognizing First Nations. However, it is a sad situation when one part of the family must die and the other must live. This is almost a King Solomon issue. Have you ever considered or addressed this issue?
Mr. Ryan: I am afraid that is something in which we have never been involved.
The Chairman: Would you say your whole department is unaware or ignorant of the fact that the Métis have been declared a First Nation in the last couple of years? Whenever a program comes out, do you not attempt to survey the area or Métis governments in that area?
Mr. Ryan: It is fair to say, Mr. Chairman, that our responsibility under the act itself would preclude that.
The Chairman: What Senator Chalifoux is getting at is that the definition of "aboriginal" has been broadened in the act to include more than native bands. It includes the Métis people.
Mr. Ryan: We are not in a position to give you a substantive answer. I would have to consult with our legal department.
The Chairman: That definition has not yet come to your attention.
Mr. Ryan: No.
Senator Spivak: From my experience -- and not just with the Métis people -- provincial governments, which have been delegated certain powers since 1932, treat neither aboriginals nor anyone else with any sort of justice. They allow all of these companies to come in and log on disputed lands.
Whenever a company comes into a province, they promise all kinds of jobs. My province would not even deal with those involved. People were told, "Go talk to the company." However, the company representatives did not want to talk to them.
We heard some eloquent testimony last year about the destruction and the complete disregard for the rights of aboriginal peoples in many of the provinces. This is no secret. It is in the newspapers every day.
With all due respect, I find your presentation almost surrealistic. It is very bureaucratic. There is a deep-rooted problem, and you are dealing with it by giving a grant here and a grant there.
I understand that in the area of the prairie provinces, the federal government has delegated some of its responsibilities. Nevertheless, the federal government does have a fiduciary responsibility to the First Nations. I do not expect you to answer that, because that is a policy question, and I know that bureaucrats simply do what their political masters tell them to do.
My specific question is: In the Yukon territories, what is the rotation? How long does it take a tree to grow, once you cut it down?
Mr. Wyse: The trees grow slowly there. It could be 100 years.
Senator Spivak: Are you saying "it could be," or do you know?
Mr. Wyse: I know that they grow slowly, but I am not an expert in forestry.
Senator Spivak: You are administering policies here. That is what you said in your presentation on forestry practices. If a tree takes 120 years to grow -- that is what it takes in northern Manitoba -- then you must have a rotation policy which allows for that. In northern Manitoba, the forestry company is doing a 60-year rotation, which will have a devastating effect on the forest.
What, for example, would you say annual allowable cuts are in the Yukon? I am trying to get a handle on the specific things that constitute your advice and counsel to these forestry operations.
The Yukon forest is large; the forests that the aboriginals are concerned about represent only 0.5 per cent of the total area. What principles do you apply? Give us some idea so that we can have some confidence in the advice that you are giving to these people.
Mr. Ryan: More and more First Nations have forest management plans that take sustainable development principles into account.
The role of the department in this whole process has been to fund First Nations to develop those plans. The plans will be different for different geographic areas, which would take into account the length of time for regeneration of a particular species.
Senator Spivak: Are you saying that the role of natural resources is simply to fund programs here? Does that constitute the total sum of your responsibility?
Mr. Ryan: I would not say it is the total area of our responsibilities. We try to develop some policies that are beneficial to First Nations, but a large part of our role involves funding.
Senator Spivak: It says in your brief that "Before issuing timber permits and licences, the department carries out environmental assessments." Is that your role, or is it the role of the office which conducts the environmental assessment?
Mr. Wyse: We carry out the environmental assessments.
Senator Spivak: Can you provide me an example of where you have done this, and give me the criteria in terms of the annual allowable cut? Furthermore, what do you mean by "sustainable development"? Those are just words. What is the real story on the ground?
Mr. Wyse: If a First Nation requests a timber permit to be issued in a particular area, we will ask the logger to develop a logging plan. The logging plan will specify the specific areas to be cut and the access roads, and identify things such as streams and river crossings. Those logging plans are then assessed for environmental impacts. This ascertains, for example, if there is a danger to fish habitat, if we are logging on the slopes, if there is logging in areas such as swamp land, and where the logging equipment can cause problems. We also look at the equipment being used, in order to determine whether the it is suitable for the particular environment.
When these logging plans are developed for an area, we ask the First Nation if it has a forest management plan. If it does not have one, we encourage the First Nation to have one developed. Those forest management plans are then developed, and the logging plan is looked at to ensure that the cuts are within the context of the forest management plan.
Senator Spivak: Who determines that?
Mr. Wyse: Department officials assess that. The foresters go out and, in some cases, look at the plan on the ground.
Senator Spivak: Environment Canada has nothing to do with this?
Mr. Wyse: Environment Canada creates the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, but it is not involved in the assessments that occur.
Senator Spivak: It is involved when it comes to private companies, because it sets a whole list of criteria. In Manitoba, I have seen it deal with companies such as Louisiana Pacific.
Mr. Wyse: Large-scale projects quite often go to environmental assessment panels, in which Environment Canada becomes involved.
The Chairman: That may be part of it, but you are talking about timbering and cutting by the native bands -- that is, fairly small operations. Nothing in the classification of northern Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba has affected your area yet, has it -- that is, where pulp companies want to come in and manage areas half the size of Switzerland? Is pulp being cut up in the areas that you administer? Are there any large concessions of the type that we have in northern Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba?
Mr. Wyse: We are speaking about reserve forests, which are generally quite small.
The Chairman: You are also talking about obtaining money to log off reserves.
Mr. Wyse: We can provide assistance to negotiate arrangements with a First Nation community, should they wish to log off the reserve.
The Chairman: Is that as far as you go? Have you helped First Nations, for instance, to get subcontracts from large pulp cutting companies?
Mr. Wyse: We help them by providing the dollar so that they can negotiate arrangements with the large companies.
Senator Spivak: Why are so few employed by these large companies? Not many are employed by them.
Senator Chalifoux: That was also my concern. In the northern half of Alberta, ALPAC has a commitment to hire aboriginal people, but those hired are very few and far between. The Métis nation in the northern part of Alberta -- Big Stone, Trout Lake and Peerless Lake -- banded together to start a logging company because they had no opportunities in the bigger companies.
I am sure that no community, other than perhaps Big Stone, has been able to access any dollars to assist in the development of this. That is my primary concern. That is why I asked whether you work with communities that are not on reserve -- that are just negotiating their land at the present time.
Second, you mentioned forest management councils in the Yukon. Do the reserves in the northern half of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have forest management councils too?
Mr. Wyse: There are no councils of that type in northern Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
Senator Chalifoux: I travel throughout that area regularly. The forests in the northern half of Alberta are being devastated, and that is also on-reserve land. How are people being trained in forest management? Simply because they are First Nations does not mean that they necessarily know how to manage the forests. The tragedy is that 35 years ago these people were very powerful and strong in traditional lifestyles. However, since economic development has come into those communities, we have a lost generation that was not taught the traditional lifestyle, and has not been accepted in the industrial lifestyle.
How are you training these people in forest management? How can they access the available dollars? The communities do not want to destroy the land, but they do want to work. How can they manage the forests properly if they have not been trained properly?
You say that financial resources are available to them, yet I do not see that up there. I should like to know how they access those training dollars, and what the training program is.
Mr. Wyse: DIAND funds a post-secondary education program for First Nations students. Human Resources Canada provides on-the-job training dollars for First Nation and other aboriginal peoples. These programs are delivered through bilateral agreements with organizations in various provinces. Through the First Nation forestry program, the department provides funding to First Nations for training projects related to on-reserve forest management, as well as training in dealing with the Indian Act and the specific rules and regulations therein.
Senator Chalifoux: You are saying that you simply provide funding?
Mr. Wyse: Yes.
The Chairman: In your presentation you refer to the Umbrella Final Agreement for Yukon First Nations. It seems that we are finally doing the right thing with regard to aboriginal people's rights to forests. Perhaps this is the way we should have done it in the 1920s and 1930s when we transferred resources to the provinces. However, it seems that the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba have thrown out this umbrella agreement for joint management. They are willing to take advice, but they seem to want to be in charge.
There was a clause in the 1930 act which stipulated that mineral rights given to provinces must be returned to the federal Crown if they were needed to complete a land settlement with native peoples. Is there any thinking in the department that that should apply to forest resources as well?
Mr. Ryan: We are not aware of any such deliberations within the department on that topic.
The Chairman: We have tried to patch up past errors made in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, when provinces were not required to factor the aboriginal effect into forest management. What are we doing to learn whether that can be factored back into the management of provincial forests? After all, those forests are being sold out from underneath the First Nations for pulp, which destroys the game in the forests, and any chance they had to run small logging operations of their own. What are you doing to fulfil the commitment to protect the rights of aboriginal peoples with which the Government of Canada entrusted you many years ago? Through what you have done in the Yukon, you are admitting that those rights existed, yet there is thundering silence about aboriginal rights in the boreal forests in the provinces.
Ms Trépanier: In the Prairie provinces, the land is essentially under treaty. The situation in the Yukon is very different -- there were no treaties there. We are now negotiating treaties. The umbrella agreement has been concluded with six nations, and we are negotiating with others.
The Chairman: That was my point. Today we ensure that aboriginals are protected with forest rights, but we did not do so in the past. Does that not telegraph the message that those old treaties were negotiated improperly? Or perhaps those rights are in those old treaties, and we have never activated them.
Senator Spivak: That is exactly what is happening in decisions involving a series of court cases. According to Delgamuukw, it is beginning to be understood that if native people have lived continuously -- and I forget the exact wording -- in a certain area, they have rights, particularly in British Columbia, where there are no treaties.
The Chairman: The rights were not extinguished by the signing of a treaty.
Senator Spivak: That is right. In the areas where there are land claims, they are taking an aggressive stance, and I do not blame them.
The Chairman: We are praising you for what you have done in the last couple of years, but giving you a little slap on the wrist for what DIAND has not done in the last 40 or 50 years.
We are trying to determine whether you will be pressuring the provinces to accept more co-management with our aboriginal people in terms of forest resources.
Mr. Wyse: We respect provincial jurisdictions. However, I should like to mention the National Forest Strategy, which was recently signed by most provincial governments.
In developing the National Forest Strategy, the National Aboriginal Forestry Association played a major role in developing and doing the legwork for Strategic Direction Seven. Strategic Direction Seven contains a number of provisions which commit signatories to the Canada Forest Accord to address the kinds of problems to which you have alluded, namely, things such as the recognition of aboriginal and treaty rights.
Senator Spivak: What are the sanctions? What is the method of enforcement?
Mr. Wyse: My understanding is that the sanctions are not concrete in the sense that you can take the sanctions to court.
The Canada Forest Strategy and the Canada Forest Accord will be monitored and evaluated by independent auditors, however. Certainly, the previous forest strategy was addressed in that way.
Senator Spivak: There are no people on the ground in any of the provinces, because they have cut back. No one is doing the monitoring. The federal government does not do monitoring, so how do you know what is happening?
The Chairman: Do you have anything to do with aboriginals logging in New Brunswick?
Mr. Wyse: The normal array of programs applies in New Brunswick as well. Certainly, we have been dealing with some of the New Brunswick First Nations through the First Nation forestry program.
The Chairman: What you provide to Yukon aboriginals is available to New Brunswick aboriginals, is that right?
Mr. Wyse: In terms of the standard array of programs, yes.
Senator Chalifoux: Is there any way that we could get copies of the National Forest Strategy and the Canada Forest Accord?
Mr. Wyse: Yes.
The Chairman: Thank you for your presentation.
The committee adjourned.