Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the
Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 7 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 31, 1998
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, to which was referred Bill S-5, to establish a National Historic Park to commemorate the "Persons Case", met this day at 9:00 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Ron Ghitter (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, as we continue our examination of Bill S-6, we have with us this morning a number of witnesses. I would simply welcome them and ask them to proceed.
Mr. Anthony P. McGlynn, Chairman, Ottawa-Carleton Board of Trade: Good morning, honourable senators. Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the committee. My name is Anthony McGlynn. I am the chairman of the Ottawa-Carleton Board of Trade. We pride ourselves on being the voice of business in Ottawa-Carleton. Our organization represents over 700 businesses in its capacity as the Chamber of Commerce for the Ottawa-Carleton region. I have been authorized by our board of directors to make this presentation to you and to provide you with the views of the Board of Trade on the bill.
The Board of Trade's views on the bill are in accord with those of the other local business representatives from whom you will be hearing this morning, and the Board of Trade will support their submissions. Like them, the Board of Trade does not take issue with the idea of commemorating the "Persons Case" or establishing a place where great Canadians can be commemorated. From our perspective, the issue is not whether a park or other commemoration site should be established, but whether the Daly site is the appropriate place for that park or site.
While supporting all of the other presentations you will be hearing this morning, the Board of Trade would like to focus its time on three matters. The first is the economic impact of the loss of the development of the Daly site. That loss would cost us immediate construction jobs as well as the long-term benefits of having that key intersection commercially developed in an appropriate manner.
As opposed to having a park, development of the site would have a positive economic impact, including the provision of required parking for the area, which is an important point from our perspective, and a positive influence or effect on both the market and Rideau Street. Rideau Street, as you know, has been suffering for a number of years for various reasons, and this site would be an important part of linking it to more viable areas. You will be hearing more about linkages from some of the other witnesses this morning.
As well, we are concerned about the loss of revenue that would otherwise be generated by the site; there would be a loss of revenue to the NCC, and to our local city and regional governments as well as to the businesses that would otherwise be located on the site.
While the Ottawa-Carleton economy is doing well now and is recovering well from government's downsizing and the recent recession, it is still critical, in our view, to encourage development in our downtown core, and the Daly site is a very important part of developing our core.
Our second main concern is that, in our view, this is not an appropriate site for a park. It is surrounded by three very busy roads; it is of a limited size; it has relatively steep grading. All of these factors militate against its being a park. Moreover, we understand that none of the local authorities in the area, including the NCC, the local municipalities and even Parks Canada, have ever viewed this site as an appropriate place for a park. We also understand that, whatever development is approved, the NCC's development criteria provide for a large set-back, limiting the development's footprint and leaving space for views and streetscapes, and even possibly space for a commemoration area in front of the building.
Our last concern has to do not so much with the substance of the bill as with the process. We understand that the NCC has been working on developing this site for a number of years and that a number of members of the local business community have participated in that process. I understand that, originally, there were eight applicants but that there is now a short list of three. We presume, therefore, without having asked, that a fair amount of time and money has been spent on developing the site by the NCC and by the private-sector participants. We do not think that changing the rules at this late date is fair to our business community.
Ms Jean Pigott, Chairman, Linkages Initiative: Thank you very much for seeing us. My name is Jean Pigott. I am the Chairman of the Linkages committee, which is represented by the rest of us here at the table. This is Mr. Josh Moon, who has been very active with the BIA on Rideau Street, part of that great renewal effort of bringing back a wonderful old street. Then there is Mr. Pat Kelly, the General Manager of the Château Laurier, a great part of our downtown core. Then there is Mr. Phil Waserman, who has been very active in the Byward Market and with the BIA for the Byward Market. We are all here because of our concern.
This is my last day as chairman of the Ottawa Convention Centre. My successor is sitting right over there, the former mayor of Ottawa. I had seven and-a-half glorious years with the National Capital Commission so I know this site very well. I have some very deep scars on my back because of some of the events surrounding the NCC and the Daly site.
I am here because of concern. I would like to read into the record something very formal about what our organization is doing.
Formed in 1995, the Linkages Initiative is a partnership of 25 downtown business agencies whose mandate is the implementation of a downtown pedestrian infrastructure program to improve pedestrian access between convention, hotel and other complementary facilities and attractions. These are required to improve the capital's attractiveness as a tourist and convention destination and for the revitalization of its downtown core. The primary linkage system includes both enclosed pedestrian ways and exterior pathways which are at, above or below grade. The Daly site is a pivotal location within the convention district and priority linkage system.
Two enclosed linkages are proposed to connect the Château Laurier to the west and the Rideau Street retail block to the east. This will, in turn, link the site to the Rideau Congress Centre/Westin Hotel complex and the government Conference Centre. Together with the implementation of just two other priority linkages, a capital connection will be created that positions Ottawa with the greatest number of hotel rooms and parking spaces connected to a convention space in Canada. That is very important.
In keeping with the priority linkage system, the National Capital Commission's request for proposals for the redevelopment of the Daly site included those opportunities for linkages.
The Daly site also constitutes a physical link between developments and street front facades along Rideau Street and various downtown districts that converge in this area, including the Sparks Street Mall, the Parliamentary Precinct, the Ceremonial Route, Sussex Drive Mile of History, Confederation Square, Rideau and Byward Market business improvement areas and the Rideau Congress Centre. It is a pivotal site.
Thus, the Daly site has the potential to be reinstated as a cornerstone development, an integral part of the downtown urban fabric. The Linkages Initiative, therefore, must be concerned with the premise of Bill S-6, which would effectively limit the use of this site to an historic park. That is why we are here this morning.
Mr. Moon will continue the presentation at this point in time.
Mr. Josh Moon, Vice-President, Realty Equity Inc.: I wish to draw your attention to a number of documents that you received in a white folder.
Contained in the folder is a document entitled "Connecting the Capital: The Linkages Initiative." One of the principal tasks of the linkages initiative over the last three years has been a study funded by joint private-sector funding by KPMG. At the first page of the document, there is a summary of KPMG's analysis of the economic impact of the linkages system. A principal concern is that we have difficulty in attracting conventions in the colder weather periods in this city, which happen to be about six to eight months of the year. We could overcome that if we could connect the Château Laurier, on one end, and the Novotel and Les Suites on the other end. On the next page you will see a comparison of major Canadian cities and how, by doing that, we would compare in terms of connected hotel rooms to a convention facility.
The KPMG study found that, while Ottawa has a smaller convention facility than other Canadian cities, we would jump to the head of the list in terms of hotel rooms directly connected by pedestrian links.
Another document that you have in the same file folder, which can be put up on the easel, is a map of the of the linkages system, outlining priority linkages. First, the Château Laurier is in the northwest corner; Les Suites and Novotel hotels are to the east, and the Ottawa Congress Centre is in the centre. At this time it is linked only to the Westin Hotel.
The government Conference Centre is linked to the Château Laurier; however, the government has determined that it is not available for larger programming beyond what it is currently being programmed for at this point in time, although we continue to seek some opportunities to use that facility to a greater degree.
Until such time as it becomes available, and there is no indication that it will in the short term, there is no opportunity for that priority link from the government Conference Centre over to the Congress Centre. That makes the Daly site a pivotal location within the linkages system, to get across Mackenzie, across Sussex, and then through the existing links into the Rideau Centre, the Westin and the Congress Centre complex.
The findings of the KPMG study were that we could attract more business in those pivotal winter months, that that business could create jobs in the tourism and convention sector, and that those jobs were important to this economy over the long term, which probably leads to our next witness from the hotel sector.
Mr. Patrick Kelly, General Manager, Château Laurier: I am employed by Canadian Pacific Hotels and manage a local business interest with 446 employees. The Château Laurier has been in operation since 1912.
The Château Laurier is considered one of Canada's premier hotels and is a designated national heritage building on the basis of its architectural merit and its place in the history of our national capital. Unfortunately, for many years guests of the Château have had to overlook an abandoned Daly building and, latterly, a vacant and boarded site. Consequently, I am relieved, as is the company that I represent, that the NCC is finally poised to redevelop the site. However, we are equally concerned that Bill S-6 could disrupt that long overdue development.
The following are the key reasons why we feel the Daly site should be commercially developed: Location, linkages, parking and safety.
Starting with location, by virtue of its location, the Daly site would become the heart of Ottawa's tourism and convention district. There is great opportunity for the creation of a tourism centre or attraction on the ground level. Accordingly, the Daly site could function as a hub in the centre of a vast array of tourism and convention-related facilities that would include hotels, the Ottawa Congress Centre, a revitalized government Conference Centre, the Rideau Centre, the Byward Market, the National Gallery and Parliament Hill. With the right components, a commercially developed Daly site would serve as a hub of all of this activity on a year-round basis.
Concerning linkages, like the CP Hotels' Royal York Hotel and Union Station in Toronto, the Château Laurier is connected to our former train station by an underground linkage. However, use of the government Congress Centre is limited, and that is reflected in the under-utilization of the Château's lower level. Consequently, the Château does not derive a great deal of benefit from this particular linkage.Therefore, it is of vital importance to us that the Daly site be developed in such a way as to physically support the development of a linkages network that would connect the Château to facilities such as the Rideau Centre and the Congress Centre. An uninterrupted network of pedestrian linkages, linking 1500 hotel rooms to conference, retail and entertainment facilities, would make Ottawa a much more attractive destination to tourists and convention planners, and would enable our industry to compete much more effectively against other destinations. The Daly site is critical to successfully developing this kind of continuous, uninterrupted network.
Our next area of concern involves parking. The Château Laurier owns and operates its own parking garage with 350 parking spaces. We experience firsthand the shortage of available parking facilities in the downtown core. Frequently, our facility is unable to accommodate the combination of visitors and local demand, resulting in frustration amongst those who travel into the core by automobile. This situation has become even more serious with the absorption of a large municipal lot by the U.S. Embassy project and the loss of an NCC lot in the Byward Market. We believe that a commercially developed Daly site could provide as many as 400 badly needed parking spaces.
I will now address safety concerns. Over the past few years, we have witnessed an increase in unlawful activity on Mackenzie Avenue, largely in terms of male prostitution. We currently employ a full-time security team for the purpose of maintaining a safe and inviting atmosphere both within and outside the Château. We are concerned that, if the Daly site is turned into a park, it could represent an uncontrolled and unprogrammed open space and could quite easily contribute to further unlawful activity in the heart of our tourist sector.
Having described the four main reasons why we feel it is important to the Château Laurier that the Daly site be commercially developed in an intelligent and thoughtful manner, I should also like to suggest that the desire to commemorate famous Canadians is commendable and could be successfully incorporated into the Rideau Street esplanade portion of the site. I would also recommend that it would then be appropriate to relocate the Terry Fox statue to this location.
In conclusion, I have the honour and privilege of managing one of the most cherished institutions in our nation's capital. We all have a responsibility to do all that we can to continue to build and promote Ottawa not only as our nation's capital but as a world-class city. The Daly site is an opportunity to do just that, by balancing the objective of honouring great Canadians with the objective of commercially developing the site in a thoughtful manner befitting a capital city.
Mr. Phil Waserman, Chairman, Byward Market Business Improvement Area: Good morning. I own two restaurants in the Byward Market area and I am one of the partners who are redeveloping the city-owned Byward Market Building, so I have a substantial stake in the area. Although I am chairman of the Byward Market Business Improvement Area, I will speak to you first as the director of the Ottawa Tourism and Convention Authority and will represent their views to you as briefly as possible.
Ottawa is one of the world's most beautiful capitals. It is known for being clean, green and safe. While you might assume that the Tourism Authority would be anxious to see another park on the site in question, that is not so. In fact, in a recent board meeting we passed a motion in favour of a commercial development that would be attractive to visitors and convention delegates, rather than a park.
As well as potentially providing more activities for visitors to the capital, the Daly site is critical to the Linkages project, and the Linkages project is crucial to getting more conventions into Ottawa. Last year the convention business generated an economic impact of $189 million. It could be much higher, but, because of our weather, Ottawa is understandably not a popular winter destination for conventions. In order to become a year-round convention destination, we need east-west pedestrian links between the Congress Centre, the Château Laurier, the government Conference Centre and other key buildings. That will only be possible if there is an infrastructure on the Daly site.
We also believe that with Major's Hill Park and the Rideau Canal so close by, there already exist park settings that are more attractive than the intersection of three major roads. Furthermore, since the presence of vagrants and street people in the area is already an issue for local residents and tourists, we believe that security would soon become a problem would render a park an unattractive site, and in fact might inhibit pedestrian traffic.
In summary, while the "Persons Case" is certainly a worthy initiative, and one that we support, we believe the memorial should either share the Daly site with a commercial development or should be located elsewhere.
The Byward Market BIA represents over 350 businesses and the Downtown Rideau BIA represents approximately 450 businesses. This business community will be directly affected by how the Daly site is developed. There is potential for significant activity and economic spinoff from the right development of this site. It will also, as a side benefit, provide some additional assessment for the Downtown Rideau BIA. Neither BIA supports this bill as it stands, since it excludes any commercial activity on the site.
The other major issue is parking. When the U.S. Embassy construction was commenced, there was an undertaking that the 250 lost parking spaces would be replaced by underground parking on the Daly site. A park on this site would threaten any opportunity for parking to be provided. We need this additional parking to support the Byward Market and Rideau Street activities and special events that take place throughout the year. In addition, that parking facility fits into the overall planning of the City of Ottawa of having parking lots on the periphery of the Byward Market and having people walk into the area.
Another issue is safety. This morning, I received by fax a letter from the Ottawa-Carleton Police Department describing their views about a park on that site. I would be happy to submit that letter to you. Unfortunately, I did not have time to make copies. Safety is a key concern. Particularly at night, this area could become frequented by substance abusers, panhandlers, homeless people and perhaps prostitutes, all of which would be a disincentive to connect the two parts of the downtown core.
We already deal with increased panhandling activity. We have our own Street Ambassadors program in cooperation with other business areas. I believe that additional funding would be required to deal with that, if a park were to be located on this site.
We certainly support the intent of the bill to properly memorialize the "Persons Case" and other notable Canadians, but we believe that, at a minimum, it should be on a shared site, if not located elsewhere.
The Chairman: Thank you for your presentation. May we have a copy of the letter to which you referred?
Senator Kenny: Linkages is one issue that has come up repeatedly. It is one of the principal reasons this panel is before us. I gather that one of the main impediments to linkages is the federal Conference Centre. Is that correct?
Ms Pigott: It is an opportunity, but it is also a deterrent at the moment. It does not seem to be part of the destiny that we envisage for the core of the capital. It is a dark building that is used infrequently.
Senator Kenny: I understand that. If the federal government had a different attitude toward that building, you would already have a key linkage which would get you a fair way toward the Congress Centre and the Westin Hotel, would you not?
Ms Pigott: It is one link. The Château Laurier and the Conference Centre are linked now, but there would need to be a lot of work done. That is not the only reason we feel so strongly about the Daly site.
Senator Kenny: I understand that, but I was starting with that particular element of it. It is a linkage that has been there ever since the station was located there. It was a viable concourse that avoided Confederation Square for almost a century.
I am looking at your map for linkages. Looking at the connection from the Château to Chapters, I assume that the plan goes underground at some point as there appears to be a gap at the Daly site. Could someone describe to me what is envisioned in terms of linkages?
Ms Pigott: The potential exists for either an overhead or an underground link there. Underground would be preferable. However, there are some complications in that there is solid rock there and there are services located there.
The significant thing about that linkage is that it is also the linkage to the market area, and the Byward Market is quite significant to us from a tourist and convention aspect. The link between the Conference Centre and the Château Laurier does not address the east-west linkage.
Senator Kenny: From what date to what date do stalls function in the market on a full-time basis? I appreciate that some stalls function year round, but when does the market get into full swing?
Mr. Waserman: May 10 is the official opening of the Byward Market, and it continues until the end of October, generally.
Senator Kenny: Would an underground linkage have any impact on when the market would officially open?
Mr. Waserman: I do not think that would affect the outdoor market.
Ms Pigott: Remember that the market is more than just the outdoor market. It is a year-round economic development area.
Senator Kenny: I understand that, but the question of the market came up. We have an outdoor summertime market, and restaurants that function outdoors a great deal; people walk there on the surface as opposed to underground.
By the way, the bill in no way precludes parking beneath the surface. A linkage could be accommodated in the same way that parking could be accommodated, could it not?
Ms Pigott: That is correct.
Senator Kenny: The question of vagrants, safety and prostitutes has come up repeatedly. There seems to be an assumption that a park creates vagrants, causes hazards and encourages prostitutes. I am hard pressed to see how the corner of Sussex and Rideau Street would suddenly becomes a hookers' hang out.
The people involved with Rideau Street development had significant problems when they enclosed part of Rideau Street. We all remember the sad story, and I remember it more than most because of an indirect association with Ogilvie's. The problems that occurred along Rideau Street were hugely magnified once you enclosed the street. It was a significant problem that was magnified many times over by doing that.
Do you have any comments on that?
Ms Pigott: What we are trying to say is that something exciting or significant should happen on that corner. It is a wonderful corner. It is vitally important to the Confederation Boulevard concept. It is not what you create; it is what you stop. Something vital, creative happening there, as part of the streetscape, would ensure that we did not have troubles.
You must remember that parks that become vacant space seven months of the year are conducive to having something unhappy happen. I have had a great deal to do with the parks with NCC, and they are glorious places when the sun shines and they are glorious places when the flowers are blooming. It is very difficult to control that space when it is dark and when we have seven months of winter and ice storms.
Senator Kenny: We have seven months of winter, Mrs. Pigott, up here on Parliament Hill as well. There is a great open space there and I have not seen any hookers or vagrants.
Ms Pigott: Please do not ask me to comment on that.
Senator Kenny: I will let someone else on the panel deal with it then. Who would like to address that question?
Ms Pigott: You must remember, one of the things on Parliament Hill is wonderful lighting and you are about to have even greater lighting and you have many buses and people. We wish to create a people place.
Senator Kenny: There is no question about that. The debate is whether development involves a people place or whether a park involves a people place and the bill is silent on that.
Parks Canada has a history of designing some terrific people places that attract people from right across the country.
Ms Pigott: Seven months of the year.
Senator Kenny: No, that attract people year round, in fact. I was just concerned that this is the second or third time people have come back to this committee suggesting that, by creating a park, we are creating a safety hazard and that we are encouraging vagrants and undesirable people. It seems to me that the city, or the people who are running the city or all levels of government, have a responsibility to take care of people who cannot find proper housing and to try to ensure that prostitution is not part of it. However, simply by having a green space on the site, I do not follow the logic any more than Confederation Square attracts vagrants.
Mr. Waserman: Perhaps I could refer to the letter from Inspector Dunlop from the Ottawa-Carleton Regional Police Service. I asked her opinion on what the impact of a park on that site would be and, based on her experience as a police officer and inspector for the area, her letter outlines her concerns for that area. Whether those same things would apply to Parliament Hill I am not sure.
Senator Kenny: Part of the problem with this letter is it makes assumptions about what the space would look like. There is no proposal yet as to what the space would look like in the event it is a park. I can understand someone saying if you build a high wall and hide people then you will have a problem.
I find it very difficult, given the lack of information that this individual has, or any of us have for that matter, about what the space would look like, to form a judgment about its safety or lack of safety.
Mr. Kelly: I am not prepared to make the statement that a park would add to unlawful activity currently going on in the area. I do know, from firsthand observations, that there is a certain amount of unlawful activity going on currently in that area, and on Mackenzie Avenue.
It has been my experience, and it is simply my opinion, that if an area is vibrant and well lighted and there is a great deal of people activity and, therefore, if the Daly site has a combination of tourists and visitor-related activities going on over a 12-month-a-year basis, I believe there is reasonable hope that that could help alleviate what is currently going on in that area.
Senator Kenny: I do not have any disagreement with you on that and certainly my hopes for a park would include everything you are suggesting.
I really wanted to address, Mr. Chairman, three areas: The one was parking and the bill does not preclude parking from taking place underneath it. There is a second issue that has come up and that has to do with linkages. There already is a linkage from the Château over to the federal conference centre. I accept the fact that the federal conference centre is not properly utilized. It could be utilized far better for the benefit of people in Ottawa and, frankly, as a conference centre I do not think it works very well even in that regard. That is a totally separate issue, but there is absolutely no reason to sink a park because a conference centre is not functioning right.
The third point I wanted to draw the committee's attention to, Mr. Chair, was the fact that we have witnesses coming back repeatedly talking about this becoming a location that will attract undesirable elements when, in fact, that is unlikely if it is designed properly. This is not a money bill, it does not direct the government how to design it at all, it leaves it to experts who have designed 270 historic sites very successfully right across the country and who have done it with a great deal of consultation and public involvement. It leaves it to them to design.
I feel it is quite inappropriate for this committee to get into details like that. We are not equipped to do that. The debate should not be revolving around issues like that. The Senate is not the right place to do urban planning. The Senate is the not the right place to design a park. The right place is with the pros and in this case the bill recommends Parks Canada, who happen to be pros and who have a track record of doing 270 sites.
My speech is over but those are the comments I wished to make.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: As a user, I understand very well the parking issue. Is there anything preventing the construction of an underground parking area? I am thinking here about a historic site in Quebec City as well as about the Plains of Abraham. Large parking areas were built to enable people to go to the Quebec City Congress Center and to link up with the Hilton and other hotels. This problem has already been dealt with without affecting in any way the historic flavour of the Quebec capital. Parking for several hundred cars was provided. Traffic must be a consideration.
Does this parking study discount the issue of finding additional parking to accommodate Byward Market customers as well as Château Laurier guests?
[English]
Ms Pigott: Even when we were speaking about the restoration of the old Daly building, parking was included in that plan.
It is a question of cost, because the Daly site is solid rock. In fairness to the National Capital Commission, how do you put in the parking without having the revenue from a commercial building on top to balance it?
Mr. Kelly: You are absolutely right. Potential developers expressed concern that without a commercial development above ground, the costs of building parking would be prohibitive on that site.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: You support the proposed underground parking. I understand that the CN Building will not have an outdoor parking area.
Ms. Pigott: Absolutely not.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Sparks Street is one example of a successful pedestrian thoroughfare. Many people stroll along this street during their lunch hour. Is security a problem? Is loitering a problem? I do not think so. Perhaps it is at 10 p.m., but senators are not out at that hour! A pedestrian mall does not necessarily promote crime. We have proof of this. To my knowledge, criminal activity is not a round-the-clock problem between Elgin Street and Bank Street.
[English]
Ms Pigott: When you are planning an urban core, it is terribly important to have the mix of activity that brings people back out into the centre of the city. I have lived in major cities, particularly in downtown Toronto, at Bay and Bloor. There are so many people out there during the night in the evening that the safety factor is of minimum concern. In the wintertime some of our streets are very cold and lonely, and people do not come out. We have also had one or two crimes. We had an infamous shoot-out on Elgin Street. Councillors tell me that their constituents go into their apartments at 6 o'clock at night and do not come out until the next morning.
We wish to create "people places" in the core of the city where a maximum number of people come out. If you attract people, things do not happen.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: As far as I know, anyone leaving Parliament Hill, the downtown area or the Congress Centre and heading for the Byward Market has no choice but to go through this intersection. This is one of the busiest intersections in Ottawa. It is not an out-of-the-way place like McKenzie Avenue which is well-known for certain types of activities. The chief of police could oversee this project. I have a problem seeing how such a busy area could become a dangerous location. What criteria are people basing themselves on to come to this conclusion? This seems to be the main objection to the public park proposal.
[English]
Mr. Moon: If I may start with your first point, Ottawa is a safe place. I walk the streets with my family at any time. Ottawa is suffering from the syndromes from which many other cities in this country are suffering. We have a great deal of poverty, and we have a large number of youth on the street. Is that unsafe? I do not know. However, many people perceive it as unsafe, particularly older people and women.
I manage a building at the corner of Nicholas and Rideau Street, and we have a great deal of difficulty with homeless people and youth. Is that a question of safety? I do not perceive it as an issue of safety; however, people perceive it as unsafe. The youth and the homeless are attracted to busy locations.
Sitting against the wall is Mr. Maclellan from Viking Rideau Corporation, which runs the Rideau Centre, and he will tell you about what happens at busy locations. I look out over the William Street Mall, and I can tell you what happens at busy locations. Any busy public location will attract homeless people and youth with nothing in particular to do.
If a public place has animation around it or has security associated with it, that public place becomes very attractive to the general public. If there is no security, animation or public surveillance at that location, it becomes a hang-out. I would point to William Street, to the bus loading area on the old Ogilvie site. Places without 24-hour security become very difficult places in the downtown urban fabric.
If the Daly site is to become a park, then you must assure that it is designed and animated in such a way that it has 24-hour security and public surveillance, something that I can assure you the Ottawa police department does not provide throughout the Rideau Street area. I am the past chair of the Rideau Street BIA, currently on the board of directors, and I am sure Mr. Waserman can confirm that the police are doing the best they can with the resources they have, but they cannot provide the Byward Market and Rideau Street with public surveillance everywhere in the area.
The opportunity for development on the Daly site provides an opportunity to create a positive urban landscape and a positive downtown place. If it was to remain merely a park, an open, unsurveyed space, at a busy location where you say people travel all the time, it will attract the squeegee kids, the panhandlers, and the vagrants. Is that unsafe? I do not know. I do not think so.It is not unsafe for me, but my wife would find it unsafe, and others might perceive it as unsafe.
The Daly site must become part of the urban fabric. It could be a very difficult location for a park. I would agree with Senator Kenny who said the Senate is not the right place to design a park. It is a delicate issue. I think we should leave the job to the NCC, and perhaps you can give them guidance as to what to do with that forecourt of some 27 or 30 metres at the front of the site, which is being protected for the public good in the development proposals. Make that the site of the "Persons Case" commemoration. However, you must ensure that you have a building or something active there that allows the site to be publicly surveyed by security and forces of public good who are there on a 24-hour basis.
I would remind senators that you have the RCMP on Parliament Hill 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. We do not have the Ottawa police on Rideau Street for that period of time. They are too stretched throughout the rest of the city.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I have taken note of your arguments. In any event, we are not about to do away with the Byward Market because people loiter there when we would prefer to see them elsewhere. This takes nothing away from the charm of the market. It is one of Ottawa's major attractions.
In the document we received, mention is made of hotel rooms which would be linked to the Congress Center. The total number of linked hotel rooms would increase from 510 -- I am assuming that that is the number of rooms at the Westin Hotel -- to 1,473 rooms with the linkage of the Novotel Hotel and Les Suites. Why not take steps to link the Novotel Hotel, Les Suites and the Congress Centre immediately? Are we talking here about underground tunnels or passageways?
I do not see how we can take the two busiest streets in Ottawa and start to erect dangerous passageways like the ones illustrated in this document. I cannot image an overhead walkway linking the Château Laurier. What is stopping us right now from linking all hotels to the Congress Center by way of underground passageways? We do not need the Daly site to move on this proposal.
[English]
Mr. Moon: To respond to your first point, it is my understanding that the Novotel and Les Suites complexes have already entered into discussions with Viking Rideau. That link is awaiting some decision-making by other levels of government in terms of the expansion of the Congress Centre or a new convention facility, which is on hold right now.
It has been pointed out that potentially two sites could accommodate the Convention Centre expansion. I believe that the property owners on either side of Nicholas Street have decided to wait until they see whether that expansion goes ahead before linking those two hotels into the existing Congress Centre. However, it is a natural, and it can go ahead as soon as that decision-has been made.
The second point related to underground versus above-ground linkages. The Linkages Initiative has been very careful throughout the process to advocate neither above-ground, below-ground or at-grade linkages. We have advocated improved pedestrian linkages, including weather-protected linkages in our difficult winter months. We, too, say that it is not our role to design the actual linkages. The regional government, the National Capital Commission and other agencies can design proper, safe, animated, surveyed pedestrian linkages. I worked on a team that took the pedestrian enclosures down from Rideau Street. Believe me, I do not want to rebuild those again.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: In any event, I asked the question because in the document that you handed out, the only reference is to overhead walkways. Naturally, I asked the question because on page one of this document, there is a reference to an outdoor passageway, and all of the other documents included in your package contain similar references. Based on this material, we concluded that this is what you were recommending.
[English]
Ms Pigott: We have been very careful not to rule out anything. For example, one of the very first linkages will take place next year, and that is a linkage underneath the Mackenzie King bridge, a passerelle, linking the DND building with the Rideau Centre at the Eaton's store. That will be ready next year and will enable people to come out of the Rideau Centre, go under the bridge, and come up via escalator to the DND building. As you know, the Mackenzie King bridge is very wide and difficult to cross.
We are very excited about this because this is our first one. If the regional government designs it well, I believe it will help us eliminate some of the myths about underground passages.
Surveys I have seen show that many women are concerned about underground passages, but today with new lighting and new technology that allows us to put kiosks throughout the passerelle, I believe it will be a very successful one. It will launch our first linkage project.
The Chairman: I come from a city where linkages are very important, and I have watched the evolution of linkages in the City of Calgary. Basically, all of our major hotels are linked with the plus 15 system. We like to go where there is light, not underground, in Calgary. Our weather is not nearly as severe as the weather in Ottawa. The Paliser Hotel hooks right into the Convention Centre, as do the new hotels. I notice from your comparison of major Canadian cities that, even where we have a lack of convention space in Calgary, we have hooked in 2,000 parking stalls, which is beneficial.
However, despite my support of linkages, I still have some concerns in terms of the ones you are discussing. Sometimes these linkages are not that safe. I have seen underground linkages in the City of Edmonton and elsewhere that have the problems you describe and are not safe. I believe problems will occur, as set out by the police force, relative to a park in that location. Underground linkages can be very difficult, and the safety aspect can be just as severe there as anywhere else. I would like your comment on that.
Let us assume it is not a park and that a building is built on those premises. We then put in these underground linkages. Who will pay for them?
Who will pay for the linkage from Chapters over to the Daly site, the Château Laurier and beyond? Parking will be very expensive because they will be digging into rock. It may cost $25,000 per stall, which is not exactly cheap for parking.
Mr. Kelly: The safety issue is very real. Ms Pigott, Mr. Moon, Mr. Waserman and myself have been on the linkages issue from the very beginning. In the early days of the linkages initiative, we held several meetings and made many presentations to organizations who could give us input on matters of safety, accessibility, lighting, et cetera. It has always been a prime concern to the linkages initiative that any linkages that are developed, whether above ground or below ground, are well lit and have a certain level of activity at either end in order to create traffic and a presence.
With respect to any linkage agreements that would come into place between stakeholders, we see it as a role of the linkages initiative to provide those stakeholders with guidelines, operating requirements and building requirements in order to maintain a certain level of safety and accessibility. We would hope that those operating requirements would be built into city by-laws so that they can be enforced.
On the issue of who pays, again, it has always been the belief of the linkages group that the stakeholders at either end would need to foot the bill. In the case of the Daly site, if it is privately developed and links into the Château Laurier, presumably the people footing that bill would be CP Hotels and the developer of the Daly site.
The Chairman: It would be similar to Calgary where the connected buildings pay into a fund for that linkage. You are saying that if it links into your hotel, your hotel would be responsible to pay for a portion of that, along with the owner of the Chapters building. The buildings taking advantage of the linkage would pay. Is that your understanding?
Mr. Kelly: That has always been the philosophy of the linkages group.
The Chairman: Is there any precedent for that happening in Ottawa?
Mr. Kelly: I am not sure.
Ms Pigott: We do know that discussions have taken place with Les Suites and Novotel, and they are willing to participate. With respect to Viking Rideau, if that site is chosen for the new Convention Centre, they are very interested in the linkage issue.
You must remember that our linkage committee is private sector. We have financed the studies so far with no government assistance. We do not have many studies or back-up.
We just have a dream. We have a dream that we can connect the major institutions downtown to make it easier for our visitors. We have a lot of visitors in this town, not just conventioneers. Many Canadians come here with their families to touch and feel the capital. We want to make a friendly pedestrian network, and we believe that when the time comes, certain governments -- I am mainly thinking of our City of Ottawa and our Region -- will also participate. They want this to happen. A lot of lobbying must still go on.
Mr. Kelly: Because of the amount of feedback that we have received from organizations who are providing input on the development of linkages, although we are by no means any kind of legislative body, we feel that we would be able to provide stakeholders, who would be footing the bill, as well as government bodies, such as the City of Ottawa, the Region or the NCC, with guidelines and operating and development conditions that could result in world-class linkages that would meet the requirements of the people who would use them.
Senator Andreychuk: Your concern is to keep this area viable, to bring in more Canadians, and you feel that the linkages issue is the key to that, am I right? Or is it that you feel that there should be a commercial venture on the Daly site? Which is the key?
Mr. McGlynn: Both are key.
Senator Andreychuk: Are you saying that if there was a commercial building on the Daly site, that that somehow in and of itself would be the drawing card for more tourism? What you want is an effective use of the Daly site plus the linkages, if I understand you.
Mr. Kelly: The Daly site, from our perspective, is part of a bigger vision for this part of the downtown core. We have always maintained that there must be three key initiatives for the linkages network to be developed successfully. The first initiative is an expansion of the Ottawa Congress Centre, to be able to bring in larger convention groups and to make it easier to link the Congress Centre with other institutions.
The second initiative is the revitalization or reconceptualization of the Government Conference Centre, to turn it into a facility that is readily accessible to the public and that also reflects its heritage value, et cetera.
The third element is the development of the Daly site in such a way that it promotes linkages. The reason that the Daly site is so important to us, from a linkages perspective, is that we have always thought that a successful linkages network would have to be circular and uninterrupted in nature; in other words, with no dead ends. We do not want to have visitors or local users traversing the linkages network and running into a point where they can go no further and must retrace their steps. From that perspective alone, just as it relates to the Linkages Initiative project, the Daly site is vital.
Mr. Moon: I am not sure where you were going with the question, but taking my Linkages Initiative Group hat off and thinking as a property manager on Rideau Street and as someone who has lived in this city all my life, that site is a development site. It is too important to the fabric of Rideau Street to remain as just an open space. I think that it offers an unparalleled opportunity to improve the urban fabric of the street. From the plans that I have seen, as sketchy as they are, I think you can have a combination of both an exciting, vibrant development that will have attractions as a component of it, and that will attract people to the downtown core; people from all across Canada, including the Outaouais and Ottawa. The development will also have the forecourt as a place for a celebration of a Canadian event or Canadian people, be it the Persons Case or Terry Fox. It offers the opportunity for both.
The NCC did a great deal of work to ensure that protection was there, in terms of providing for setbacks on the site and allowing for the opportunity to celebrate Canadian achievement in the forecourt.
Senator Andreychuk: Are you agreeing that the Daly site needs to have some historical significance as a drawing card but that it should be balanced with some commercial venture and activity?
Mr. Kelly: I think that is a safe thing to say.
Mr. McGlynn: The Daly site in and of itself is not a historic site, and having something historic or commemorative on it would be good. However, that is not to say that this commemorative site could not be somewhere else.
Senator Andreychuk: You have made the compelling point that there needs to be greater tourism and bigger conferences, but really the key for that is the federal conference centre, whether the Ottawa Congress Centre is going to be expanded and how they will be linked. I am trying to determine how the Daly site will fit into that.
It seems that what you want to do is to attract people to walk from Parliament Hill, or a hotel or a conference at the conference centre, and to gravitate to see all of the historic sites, such as the National Gallery and the Byward Market. Is that not part of the debate about what the Byward Market should be, a mix of restaurants or a traditional market, and trying to determine why Canadians and others go to the market area. What is the drawing card?
It seems to me that it has been a mix of a bit of a historic area coupled with the fact that you can buy things there and eat there. You want to ensure that the Daly site complements that.
Ms Pigott: I interviewed a gentleman who brings the yellow tour buses here every spring and fall. I think he brings close to 800 buses from all over Ontario and Quebec to Ottawa. His great problem is what to do with his busload of young people after they have gone to the museums and seen Parliament Hill. You cannot take them back to the hotel because they are young teenagers. You want to have something happen in the evening for them. In Ottawa there are two splash pools, and he said they are not very exciting. I told him about what happened at the 125th anniversary in Ottawa. We took an old building, and not an exciting one, on Elgin Street opposite the National Arts Centre and we filled it with things that Canadians had designed and made over the 130 or 140 years of our history. The hockey games were there, and basketball, even the discovery of the zipper; it was all illustrated in this building. We drew hundreds of kids and families. It was a very exciting place and very dynamic that summer.
I am not trying to defend not putting a hotel there, but I wish there was something there, a building filled with something that would attract young people at night. We need more attractions. I have just come from Disneyland in California. I spent two days with a ten-year-old granddaughter and you have to take your hat off to Mr. Disney for creating a place where kids have fun and learn.
By the way, I spent two days in an automated wheelchair because I have bad knees and could not walk the site. My husband is not very well and he could not walk the site, either. I have come back with a vision of having motorized wheelchairs for anyone over 60 who wants to do Confederation Boulevard. They are just wonderful. I thought my husband was going to get a speeding ticket, he was having such fun.
Anyway, we need attractions, particularly in the evening.
Senator Andreychuk: Are you saying that it would be helpful to not just have a commercial venture on the site? It must be an attraction.
Ms Pigott: I hope so.
Senator Andreychuk: One of the problems on Sparks Street has been getting activities beyond commercial activity. You need that balance.
Would you agree with me that we get deflected from the real discussion here as to what to do with the Daly site when we speak about vagrants and increased criminality? It is not the Daly site that will exacerbate it. The problem exists. The problem is an urban problem and a poverty problem, not a Daly site problem.
Ms Pigott: It is the core of the capital's problem.
Senator Andreychuk: Exactly. Since I got involved with this matter, I have been hearing that, somehow or other, what we do with the Daly site will somehow dramatically change those issues. Those are issues that cannot be solved by whatever is done with the Daly site, if we are being honest about it. We should not become sidetracked here.
I find the letter from the Ottawa-Carleton Regional Police service very disappointing from a police servicing point of view. Do you believe that we should be tackling the issue of vagrancy, prostitution and poverty in a different way and that there is no magic bullet with the Daly site?
Ms Pigott: The tragedy in all this discussion is that there is no overall plan or overall connecting group for the core of the capital.
The Department of Heritage looks after the NCC and the National Arts Centre. That is a very important part of the downtown core. Public Works Canada is concerned about Sparks Street and parts of their buildings on Elgin Street. Do not forget that the NCC is concerned about Confederation Boulevard. There is Parks Canada, the canal, the Veterans Affairs War Memorial, and the Region which cares about the plaza bridge, the market, the key roads and tourism. You must put the Region and the City of Ottawa together in all of this; they are concerned about it.
All of these people care, but they do not necessarily talk to each other. There is no concept of what should happen to the glorious capital of Canada. The NCC did a survey recently about who wants to come to the capital in the millennium. Approximately 52 per cent of Canadians said that they wanted to come to Ottawa in the millennium. This is a special place. It is not just the House of Commons and the Senate, it is all of the things that we have done over the last 140 years. They are all on Confederation Boulevard. They are all here.
We must do something to pull together. The leadership should go to the regional government at this particular point and it should pull together all of these people and say that the Daly site is just one piece of the puzzle. There should be an overall, long-term plan for the core of the capital. All the partners should be involved in this.
I weep about this sometimes because I know in my heart of hearts that this incredible country, with its distances and numerous provincial concepts, must have a place where we can bring our children to say, "This is Canada."
Mr. Waserman: I do not think that anyone is suggesting that a park on the Daly site will solve social problems, but it will cause those problems to move to that site. That, in turn, will cause some other disruptions in tourism, conventions, traffic flow, pedestrians, perceived safety, and all the other issues that have been raised here. We are not suggesting that putting a park there will cause social problems.
Senator Andreychuk: Do you agree that the definition of "park" does not mean grass and trees, that it can mean a safe activity for people?
Mr. Waserman: I suppose it could. I think everyone has a vision of a park as being a green place with trees. Perhaps some other type of park might minimize the migration of that problem.
Senator Andreychuk: Yes, and it could incorporate a commercial venture with it.
Mr. Waserman: It would be nice in the summer months, but the problems will be there for the balance of the year.
Senator Cochrane: Mr. McGlynn, would you say that a significant amount of money has been spent on this process? There have been many groups involved: the NCC, the local municipalities, Parks Canada, and others. Within the framework that you have been discussing, has a national historic park been discussed?
Mr. McGlynn: I said that I presume that the private sector participants in the development process had expended a fair amount of money putting together their bids and getting to the short list. I also presume that the NCC has spent time and resources working on the criteria for the development, and so on. That is what I was getting at in terms of "money has been spent." It is fair to say that it has. I have no idea how much money has been spent.
I do not know if anyone has looked at this from a park point of view -- that is, in the sense of Parks Canada or anyone working on the site as a park. As far as I, and the organization I represent, am aware, no one has looked at this or considered it to be an appropriate site for a park -- that is, from the perspective of the NCC, the city, the Region or Parks Canada. That is what I was getting at with those comments.
Senator Cochrane: Are you saying that the NCC or Parks Canada did not think it was appropriate for a park area? Who, specifically, did you say thought it was not appropriate?
Mr. McGlynn: I do not think anyone has thought that it was appropriate for a park area because the NCC has looked at the area and said that they want to develop the site commercially. The City and the Region never considered it to be appropriate for a park. I do not know anything about Parks Canada, but I presume that they have not looked at it as an appropriate site for a park.
Ms Pigott: No, they have not -- at least, not to my knowledge.
Senator Cochrane: Have the residents of Lower Town and Centretown been polled as to what their views are and how they feel about having a park, or not having a park on that site? There has been a significant amount of negative activity in some of the streets in those areas. The residents should be approached as to how they feel about this site.
Ms Pigott: A councillor from the City of Ottawa spoke twice at your last two meetings. The residents were polled about this site. There has been a lot of discussion over the last three or four years about the Daly site and many people have had input into it. The NCC has had public consultation, too. There were large meetings in the market area about this two years ago.
Senator Cochrane: What about the other residents of Ottawa or volunteer groups? Do they have anything to say about when this final plan will be put forward?
Ms Pigott: The Linkages Initiative Group is a private sector group that feels that we need to do something about the downtown core. We have spent the last two or three years daydreaming about it. At some point, we will have to spend more money on designs and plans and there will have to be public consultation. It is part of the system. If the Region or the City of Ottawa has anything to do with it, there will have to be public consultation.
Senator Cochrane: About two weeks ago, a group from my province was here for a federal conference. Most of them stayed at the Westin Hotel. It was marvellous to see the linkage from the Westin Hotel to the Rideau Centre. Rather than having to put on their boots and coats and everything to go over to buy some things to take back home, they could go right through this linkage that was attached to the Rideau Centre. It was fantastic. Everyone was saying how great it was. The Linkages Project must be completed to connect all the hotels, conference centres and so on.
Ms Pigott: Those words are music to our ears. We recently had an incredible conference on land mines with people from all around the world. I had a fair bit to do with the ice storm disaster and I could not help thinking of what would have happened had we had all those people here during the ice storm. It would have been terrible.
I have been fighting twice as hard for Linkages since the ice storm because, although they say it may be another 50 years before we have ice storms again, I do not believe the weatherman.
The Chairman: Thank you for your presentation.
Our next witnesses are Ms Germain and Mr. Day.
Ms Edith Germain, Consultant in Real Estate Development: Honourable senators, it is an honour to appear before you.
I hold a Master of Science in Urban Planning from Columbia University in New York, where I graduated in 1984.
The major project I have been working on for the last six years is the Bois-Franc Project, in the City of St-Laurent, on the Island of Montreal. The project is a former airfield that is being developed by Bombardier Real Estate. Bois-Franc is a residential project plan for 8,000 units, including parks, lakes, several squares, esplanades and a downtown core. Urban design decisions, like the one we are discussing today, are faced every day.
You have all been given a report wherein my recommendations, explanations and conclusions for a public square, with a plaza-like feeling, on the Daly site are listed succinctly. I invite you to read it at your convenience.
What I wish to do today is guide you through my thought process as an architect and planner to reach the conclusions outlined in the report. First, I must say that I was glad to hear that something was going to be done with that site. I never understood why it was in such a pitiful state of neglect, right next to the Château Laurier. Second, it became obvious to me, as I drove along George Street and reached Dalhousie Street, that putting up a building on the site would be a big mistake. The reason is simple: It will block the view one has of the Château Laurier and the Peace Tower, as seen from the Byward Market area. More importantly, a building on the Daly site will block the view of the focal point which the Château Laurier represents.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the Château Laurier is a bit taken for granted by those who see it every day. Maybe it is my role as an architect and planner to point out that it is a wonderful building and an important focal point. By focal point, I mean an element that serves as a visual and/or unifying element for the overall community. In fact, when one stands in front of the Château Laurier, one knows that to the left is the Rideau Canal and Parliament Hill, that behind Wellington Street, facing Parliament, stands Sparks Street, that the Government Conference Centre and former train station stands right in front of the Château Laurier. The Rideau Centre is just across and diagonal. It is impossible to establish a spatial link between the Château Laurier and the Byward Market unless one stands near the side entrance of the Château Laurier and glances down along the side entrance of the Connaught Building towards George Street.
If the Byward Market was not an important part of Ottawa's main attraction I would not say so, but this is not the case, if I judge by the emphasis that is put on the market in terms of tourism. For every tourist who will visit Parliament and other historical buildings, reaching the Byward Market is not that obvious and does not look that secure. If only there could be a plaza leading them there. This could be possible through the Daly site.
I am not talking about an underground link, although it can be built anytime without having a building on it. I am not talking about an elevated enclosed walkway or passerelle either since they are not considered any more as proper urban design solutions in urban planning, but I am talking of an outdoor visual link.
If I summarize what I have said so far, the first reason for not building on the Daly site is that when you stand at the corner of George Street and Dalhousie Street, it is obvious that a building will prevent the Château Laurier, a major focal point, from being seen from the Byward Market. The second reason is that the Daly site provides a great opportunity to get a better spatial understanding of the urban environment surrounding Parliament Hill, especially the spatial relationship between our focal point, the Château Laurier, and the promoted tourist area, the Byward Market.
My third reason for not recommending a building on the Daly site is that it will turn Sussex Drive into a canyon that is perpetually in the dark. I must stress that this is even worse since another new building is being constructed just north of the Connaught Building.
To the south of the Connaught Building, the sunny area that we see on the slide would be lost. These pictures were taken at lunch hour at the equinox, a time of the year where general sunlight conditions begin to improve. Imagine the end of winter.
My fourth reason to recommend a public square on the Daly site is that it forms a strategic point where Confederation Boulevard pivots 90 degrees. The Daly site should then be used to make a statement that this is the main intersection of Confederation Boulevard and the entrance point to the heart of the nation's capital. The decision affecting the Daly site should not be based on strictly commercial considerations, since we are talking about the capital of Canada.
I will show in a few minutes an artist's rendering of the proposed square from different viewpoints. The purpose of these perspectives will be to illustrate possible implementations of design principles. Consequently, they represent options, rather than definite solutions for design.
However, first, let us look at a world-renowned square, Trafalgar Square in London. Trafalgar Square was selected as a model because it best illustrates the design proposed for the Daly site although at a larger scale. Like the Daly site, Trafalgar Square is surrounded by main arteries and some buildings and is an area heavily frequented by pedestrians. Just as on the Daly site, there is a significant difference between the two street levels that run at its higher section and at its lower section to the left.
Back to the Daly site, podiums with large sculptures and a gazebo will be featured in a central location. There will be no fountain because of the higher level of maintenance required and the associated cost. Since the Daly site is small compared to Trafalgar Square, its function will be more dynamic.
It will be a crossing path for pedestrians, safe at night due to all the windows of the Château Laurier guest rooms facing it and safe during the day thanks to the pedestrian and vehicular activity surrounding it and the Chapters bookstore windows facing it.
Because the square will serve dynamic functions, it is more likely to be paved with stone rather than planted with grass. This will have two positive effects. It will discourage unwanted hanging about, and it will be just as easy to maintain as a sidewalk.
The stone paved plaza will be furnished with benches, sculptures, and a gazebo. It will be shaped at its west side by steps which will create a link with the Château Laurier. Also, because Mackenzie Avenue and Sussex Drive are at two different levels, a pedestrian walking through the square will not feel trapped in traffic, since he will experience it separately at each level.
It should be noted that the service entrance and loading bay for the Connaught Building will not be seen from the square. To go back, we notice from here that these loading bays cannot be seen.
A public square with a plaza-type feeling will not increase maintenance costs that much. It will basically consist of more sidewalks to clean, some benches to maintain, and a few shrubs to water. Its location provides the advantages of direct vehicular and pedestrian access, and it provides the opportunity for a concentration of activities at the confluence between the leisure-oriented Byward Market district and the cultural and heritage area of Parliament Hill.
This function can also be reinforced by an axial promenade between Byward Market and the square. This is justified by the fact that the actual link between Parliament Hill and the Byward Market is poor. The purpose of an esplanade would be not only to reinforce the square's function of linking Parliament Hill with the Byward Market but also to create an actual view of the Château Laurier and Peace Tower as well as a pleasant place for pedestrians to walk. Further, it will orient tourist's eyes from the market as a leisure area to the Peace Tower.
Mr. Dave Day, Principal, The Parks Country Group of Environmental Consultants: Honourable senators, I appreciate the opportunity to present my views on Bill S-6 to this body.
I should like to give you a brief biographical sketch. I know this corner well. I was the superintendent of the Rideau Canal for five years, from 1981 to 1986. After that, I was Superintendent of Banff National Park. I have dedicated approximately 20 years of my life to public service with Parks Canada. I am now a consultant working in the environmental management field out of Banff, a place I chose to stay with my family rather than come back to Ottawa, not that I do not love Ottawa, having lived here with my family for eight years as well.
I am here to support the proposals in Bill S-6. There are two important issues before the committee and before our Parliament in looking at this legislation, the first being the future of the Daly site itself. Much has been said about that. Second, this is a marvellous opportunity to animate some of our history and to commemorate what Emily Murphy and her four friends did for women not just in Canada but also in the British Empire through the famous Persons case.
I wish to celebrate with the advocates of this bill the efforts to reinforce our capital city. Having lived and travelled across Canada working for Parks Canada, I have probably seen more of our country than most people, and I have had occasion to live in and move through Ottawa. I am disappointed that we do not do more as Canadians to promote our flag and celebrate our heritage. I am not talking about the recent debate in the other place, but rather the fact that we do not emphasize the importance of our heritage.
We have a system of historic sites, monuments, and parks across Canada that celebrates much of our military history. Our larger parks have their birth in military history, our dominion forests. Most of these parks have added value today as society has changed its perception about them. Society has changed its perception and expectations of what we want from our capital as well. The NCC and the people of Ottawa have done a marvellous job of trying to create a capital city that is attractive and inviting for us all.
I am disappointed that our most fitting tribute to famous events, people, and places of national historic significance is usually a plaque. I know they cost a few hundred dollars to churn out of a furnace somewhere, and that a few dollars are required with volunteers with brushes and polish to keep them up. However, if it is an event, a person or a place of national significance, we should bring messages and memories together, and present them not just to Canadians but to all of our visitors and the media from around the world on Parliament Hill and in the capital precinct, which to me includes the Daly site.
Mrs. Pigott this morning hit the nail on the head when she bemoaned the fact that there is no concentrated vision of what our capital should be and represent for all Canadians and how we should get it there.
The biggest linkage problem in Ottawa is getting to Parliament Hill from Ottawa. You just about have to go through a mud puddle to get there, and this is 1998. Perhaps there are some other challenges in linkages that we should put into perspective.
I wish to promote Bill S-6 as a first step in pushing the people in Parks Canada, the people on the Historic Sites and Monuments Board, the people who like to celebrate events of national significance in the community where they occurred, to band together and use this initiative to shake up our capital a little bit. Let us celebrate what the Famous Five did for women in Canada and the Empire.
Let us also use this as a first initiative to review all of the plaques we have all over Canada, all of the statues and the little buildings that we preserve, and bring them to life right here in Ottawa. It is hard for most Canadians to travel to the west coast of B.C. or to the Arctic to individually relive our history and meet all the peoples who make up this great nation. Surely we can throw together a few bucks, hop on a plane and come to Ottawa once in a lifetime, when we are a student, when we are on holidays, or on business. We should at that time be able to wander around what I call the capital precinct, the national capital, not just to pop into the odd museum -- there are some good ones here -- and art centres, but to spend some time in the shadow of the Parliament Buildings, in the parks and green spaces which surround the Rideau Canal and the area around here, and to see all of that brought together. In one day, I could go home and have a better feeling for how I got to where I am today. Ottawa is our window on the world. It is a focus of international, political and media attention, and I do not think we recognize that enough.
As a Canadian, if someone told me we have a bit of a surplus and asked what I was prepared to use my tax money for, I would choose capital building and flag waving. I would pound the pavement for that purpose.
I am not suggesting that the senators who are promoting this bill are visionaries, although I know they are. But most parks that we cherish today, including the one in which I live, Banff National Park, are not the result of great planning. They are the result of a stubborn group of people who had a vision and the persistence to pursue their vision. Banff National Park's vision is owed to Sir William Cornelius van Horne, a gentleman engineer from Minnesota whom Sir John A. Macdonald realized was shrewd enough and had enough business savvy to push a railroad through to British Columbia and thereby link our country together. I think the same is true here.
When you have an opportunity like the Daly site sitting there for a couple of decades waiting for someone with vision to come along and shake it up a bit, sitting right in the gaze of every parliamentarian and visitor to our capital, it seems to me that if business interests had a role to play on this lot, they should have played it 20 years ago. Now I think the site has finally come of age and we are looking at some proposals for a park.
I think the committee was very prudent this morning in suggesting that we do not yet know the shape of this park. We ask that this proposal be directed to the agency which is most appropriately prepared to commemorate events of national significance, Parks Canada. Let us give them all of the ideas that we have for this site. We have the people of Ottawa wanting linkages through and around the site. We have proposals for parking somewhere on the site. We have ideas from architects already as to the approaches we can take at the site.
I believe that connections between the Byward Market and the hill are very important. This site is right on that route.
We are not talking about a grassy little place with trees, although there is no reason why that cannot be part of it. However, we are talking about an adventure in Canada's history.
I think the NCC can roll up its sleeves with Parks Canada, which it has done many times. The NCC and Parks Canada share the historic site, which is the Rideau Canal, and have a very good operating agreement as to what role Parks Canada should play in commemorating and presenting our history, such as paying for the reconstruction of authentic fabric. The NCC takes on the role of maintaining a lot of those properties by planting trees and flowers so that they are attractive and meet the rules of the national capital.
We heard from the panel this morning that that opportunity is still here. This is very much a matter of our parliamentarians on the hill giving these people a challenge, and sending them off to do something creative.
I also think the Daly site has its own history. I lived in Ottawa for seven or eight years and followed that up as the superintendent of the Rideau Canal in Smiths Falls. I remember the Daly Building, although I only vaguely remember the cornices. My memory of the Daly Building is a pretty ugly block of concrete in the middle of Ottawa. I know someone must have those cornices somewhere, and perhaps they need to be integrated into the redevelopment of the site as well. Certainly the history of the Daly Building needs to be told on this site.
I want to emphasize, again, the auspicious nature of this site. I looked at the maps presented this morning. I walked around town yesterday, and I can give you 30 good sites on which to build a commercial building. I think the proposals for expanding the Conference Centre show that there are plenty of opportunities for that available, but we only have one opportunity to create a permanent park. The word "park" is really a precious word to people. We will only have that opportunity once, and if we miss that opportunity, we will probably not get it back again.
The linkage of this site and the Persons Case represents an exciting coming together of two energies. I know that there is no particular relationship between the two. I know that a plaque could be put on the Supreme Court building to celebrate what Emily Murphy and the four other ladies from Alberta did. I am not here to argue that, but I think that the two come together so well here that it is something that we cannot pass up as a country.
Senators are balancing the challenges of a short-term gain and some short- and mid-term objectives for linkages for improving our capital from a business point of view, from the point of view of people who live here, and from the point of view of Canadians and other people who visit it, against the long-term benefits of a park. I think we all know that tourism is vital in Ottawa. Maintaining the vibrancy of our capital, our Parliament buildings, and our properties and parks around it is one of the major reasons people come here. To simply put up another building would be to sell short the reasons why people have pride in Ottawa.
I would sum up by saying that I think this bill is appropriate in all regards. That is why I have taken the time and complimented Senator Kenny for this initiative. I think the bill encompasses all of the things I would like to see -- a vision for the Daly site that would use the site as a park. I would hope that we would animate this site and not treat it as a military fort as we do many of our parks. We would look at examples from around the world, such as Trafalgar Square and the Crystal Palace. We would look at things that other countries have done and come up with a statement of what an exciting, vibrant, urban, historic park can be in Canada. It is appropriate to bring all those interests together.
In the matter of commemorating our national heritage, I recommend that the bill appropriately identify Parks Canada and the National Historic Parks and Sites Branch as being the people who have the expertise to do that. At the same time, they do not necessarily have all the expertise to design this park. In commemorating something of national historic significance, I think we need to add to that the imagination and creativity of our architects, urban designers and planners of the NCC, and the NCC's energy and vision for Ottawa to come up with a single proposal that would meet all of those objectives.
I came from Banff to support this bill, and I hope that this bill will succeed. I thank you for the sober reasoning you are giving it.
Senator Butts: I want to thank Ms Germain and Mr. Day for giving this committee a refreshing change. We have had four months of a lot of red herrings on this issue.
I think you have convinced me that we can have linkages and have a park as well. We might even have parking and a park. This park will not be a magnet for street people any more than is anything else.
I was down in the Byward Market yesterday at noon and on every corner there was a panhandler. At five o'clock I went to Wellington Street to catch the bus home, and a panhandler visited every person waiting for the bus. It does not take the Daly site to bring these people around. That is my conviction.
I am very glad that your biggest problem getting to the hill was mud puddles. We will put a beautiful park there and get rid of the mud puddles.
I also wanted to thank Ms Germain especially for putting the pictures up there because we were told that the park may have no lights and that it may be a very dangerous spot. Our decision on this committee must be whether we want economic development, another store, or whether we want something aesthetic and beautiful, as well a heritage site and historical site.
Thank you for your presentation.
Senator Andreychuk: I wanted to thank both of you for taking a different approach to this site and for putting innovation and a national concept together.
If Parks Canada got together with the NCC and truly looked at this once and for all from a national perspective of what we can do, is there the possibility of incorporating some sort of building into that site with an activity? I am thinking of the existing building, abutting up and stratified down, with some glass or something that could incorporate a commercial portion. Then on the front we could have an activity centre. Is that possible?
Ms Germain: To answer this question I will rely on some of the slides I have shown. The first illustrates the shadow on Sussex Drive.
In the past, there used to be the Daly Building and then the Connaught Building. Now you have the Connaught Building and you will have the U.S. Embassy building. Another building would increase the length of that shadow strip on Sussex Drive.
On this slide, you see the fence in the foreground and then the view on George Street. This is the place you were discussing. This would block the view on George Street and it is very important to have that visual link.
The most important slides for me are the ones which show that the Daly site is a 90-degree corner of Confederation Boulevard. When you look at that slide, everything in that direction belongs to the capital. I think this site should be treated to give that view, and to be that entrance. There is plenty of other space on which to build.
I have written it in my report. For square footage, you can build elsewhere anytime, but for a public square, this is an incredible opportunity.
Mr. Day: It would be appropriate for our senators and parliamentarians to make a decision if they wish to have a park or a commercial building. The history of national parks, for instance -- especially Banff where I live -- shows that if there were no mix between commercial and park area, we would probably all have more time to read the newspaper, to read about what is happening elsewhere than in Banff.
Even though the site looks very large, if you undertake an enterprise such as we have been discussing, you need room for a site that celebrates heritage, provides opportunities for some relaxation, maintains views of the magnificent buildings and the access between Parliament Hill and the market, and so on. I think it would be appropriate to aim for a park. Aim high. Shoot high. Perhaps a pavilion of some kind could be included to help with the presentation of the heritage theme here. However, commercial buildings and parks do not mix on this site. It is surrounded by commercial buildings. That is my perspective.
Senator Adams: I am more familiar with the park idea. If we go ahead with that idea, the NCC has to have a budget to operate it. If someone else develops a business there, they will pay taxes. I have lived here in Ottawa for 20 years, on and off, between here and the north. I would like to see a historic site there. Then people who visit Ottawa can learn about the former prime ministers and the kings and queens who came from Europe in the beginning.
Now, some of these designs are very attractive. People did use horses to develop farming in the south, of course, but up in the north, we live with different animals -- whales and walruses, polar bears and wolves, ducks and fish. We must develop this site in the future and we don't need to hear the same story all over again.
You mentioned Europe. I have been to Europe and I have seen their lions and horses and famous historical characters from Roman times. Will we put something on this site in the future that talks about the beginnings of Canada?
Do you agree with that? Some of these designs include horses, which are nice enough, but instead of putting horses there, why not put grizzlies or polar bears or seals? Perhaps San Francisco has dibs on the seals; they have 10,000 of them.
We do not have enough space for historic sites in Ottawa to show all that happened in early Canada. Tourists are attracted to these sites. Most tourists cannot afford to go up north. Perhaps they would be happy to learn about it here in Ottawa. Do you have a comment on that?
Mr. Day: It is very difficult. How does a young person really afford to go to the north and see what the north offers, or to see what is offered by the west, by the Maritimes, by central Canada, Quebec or Ontario? They cannot do it. However, many people come to Ottawa specifically because they are Canadian; they are patriotic. They want to see the Parliament Buildings, to see the Senate and the House of Commons in action.
The proposal for this site is not simply a matter of putting up a statue or a plaque. It is a challenge for urban designers today and for parks people who have always taken a traditional approach to things, to do something different.
I would like to turn your question around. I gather you are debating on Parliament Hill what we will do for the millennium. I see there is a fund of some $70 million set aside. When we talk about millennium projects, it would be a big step to represent all the parts of Canada in our nation's capital. I am probably not paying enough attention to the bottom line, but if we can afford to spend that kind of money on the millennium, then perhaps we can include some of those sorts of messages in that project. I support your stand.
Ms Germain: The purpose of this perspective was to illustrate possible implementations of design principles. I did not want my presentation to turn on a discussion of to whom the public place would be dedicated. Putting horses there was just an idea, like the others. I was sure that we would be discussing options. It is not my role as an architect and planner to discuss to whom this place should be dedicated.
Senator Adams: Ms Germain, your design is nice. You wanted to just to give us an idea and I understand that. First we have to decide on whether we approve of development or a park on the site. Then after we decide if it will be a park, we will decide on what kind of park, whether there will be statues or some other learning opportunity.
The Chairman: Thank you, witnesses.
The committee continued in camera.