Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 21, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 4:45 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Serge Pelletier, Clerk of the committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. The first order of business today is the election of the chair of the committee. I am now prepared to receive proposals to that effect.
Senator De Bané: I nominate Senator Stewart.
Mr. Pelletier: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Pelletier: I invite Senator Stewart to take the Chair.
Senator John B. Stewart (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I thank you very much for your confidence.
We have as the second item of business the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Bolduc: I nominate Senator Andreychuk.
The Chairman: It has been moved that Senator Andreychuk be the deputy chairperson of the committee.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Congratulations, Senator Andreychuk.
The third item of business relates to the authorization for the creation of a Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. The proposed language is as follows:
That, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chairman, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation;
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee.
You will notice that we do not have to name the third member now. That is to be done after the usual consultations. However, we need that motion.
Senator Stollery: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The fourth motion required concerns authorization to print a specified number of copies of our proceedings. If I remember correctly, and if the clerk of the committee remembers correctly, the number that we have been printing has been 500 and that number has been found satisfactory.
Senator Andreychuk: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We now need a motion which states:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chairman be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of each party is present.
Senator Stollery: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We now need a motion which would authorize the chair to make a report to the Senate on the expenses during the last session.
Senator Kinsella: Mr. Chairman, I move:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chairman be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee in the last session.
The Hon. the Speaker: Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion concerns the selection of research staff. The proposed motion is:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That the Chairman be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it.
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chairman, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Will someone move that motion?
Senator Andreychuk: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Whelan: Are these permanent employees of the Library of Parliament?
The Chairman: They are so-called permanent employees.
Senator Whelan: They are not people from the private sector, are they?
The Chairman: That is a possibility. The committee, Senator Whelan, did at one time use services provided by the so-called Parliamentary Centre. Latterly, we have been using the services of the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament.
Senator Whelan: If they are not available, Mr. Chairman, do you have the authority to hire extra researchers or specialists whom the library could not provide?
The Chairman: We can turn outside for counsel and technical, clerical or other personnel. That would be provided for in the second paragraph of that motion.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item 8 is for authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
Senator Stollery: I move, Mr. Chairman:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chairman or in the Chairman's absence, the Deputy Chair; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chairman, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion states:
That the committee empower the Chairman to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
I have asked how this power has been used by other committees. I have been told that it enables the committee to send one or more members of the committee to attend conferences and the like.
Senator Bolduc: I was privileged to attend a conference in Montreal about the European Union while we were studying that subject. I think it is useful once in a while.
Senator Carney: I have been delegated on other committees to present the work of the committee to various conferences. When we are invited to present the work of the committee, it is a good opportunity to do so and I think it is useful.
Senator Corbin: Is there a restriction on this proposal in that it pertains only to travel in Canada or does it include foreign places as well?
The Chairman: It would appear that it is not restricted. Perhaps I could be told if, in practice, there has been a restriction.
Senator Stollery: This is the Foreign Affairs Committee. It would be a bit silly for the Foreign Affairs Committee not to send a member of the committee to another country, if that were reasonable.
Senator Bolduc: Subject to the Rules of the Senate of Canada.
The Chairman: We will not use this power contrary to the Rules of the Senate of Canada. We will have to find out what they are.
Senator Stollery: I so move.
The Chairman: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion 10 relates to paying the travelling and living expenses of witnesses. It states:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for no more than two witnesses from any one organization and payment will take place upon application.
My understanding of the practice is that committees do not pay unless the committee itself is seeking to hear a witness or witnesses from an organization. That is to say, an organization from Antigonish, Nova Scotia, cannot say, "We want to appear before that committee and we will be happy to send you our bill." We have to initiate the process.
In addition, we would not pay the travelling expenses of corporations and others who obviously could afford to pay their way.
Senator Corbin: Mr. Chairman, taking the example of Antigonish, if a request for payment of their expenses were forwarded to your attention, would you automatically refuse payment?
The Chairman: The first consideration is whether we asked that witness to appear,
Senator Corbin: People in outlying areas are put in an unfair position. This is a large country and I suppose this will not happen very often in this committee, but nevertheless, we ought to have an open mind about any requests that come to us from outlying and distant areas from which higher travel expenses are incurred.
The Chairman: That is a good point.
Senator Stollery: This gives us control because if someone from an outlying area has something to say, we invite them and pay their expenses.
The Chairman: Is anyone prepared to move the motion?
Senator Stollery: I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for no more than two witnesses from any one organization and payment will take place upon application.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion provides general authorization to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media; that is, if we want it. I would not use this power without consulting the committee.
Senator Corbin: I move:
That the Chairman be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
The Chairman: Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I want to call your attention next to the time slots which have been allocated to us.
The room will be 356-S and we would meet on Wednesday at 3:15 p.m. and then not on Tuesday when the Senate rises, but rather early the next morning.
Thursday has its advantages and disadvantages. It is better than when the Senate rises on Tuesday, which is very indefinite, but on the other hand, it is a bit early for senators who are accustomed to city ways. Those of us of country backgrounds find 8:30 a.m. quite an acceptable hour.
Senator Stollery: Is there anything we can do about it? I wonder about the witnesses. If someone comes to Ottawa for 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, that means they have to stay over Wednesday night. However, if there is nothing we can do about, that is the way it is.
The Chairman: I think the truth of the matter is there is virtually nothing we can do about it. The work of a large number of committees is crammed into three days.
Senator Whelan: If you look at your schedule for Wednesday, the day before, it also starts at 8:30 and goes right straight through with committee meetings in the afternoon. Senators would have a very long day the day prior. We will then come here again at 8:30 the next day. I am used to long hours but I have aged slightly since I picked corn on the farm.
Senator Bryden: For the convenience of witnesses, from my experience it is far better to have them scheduled to appear at 8:30 in the morning so they know they are going to come in night before than it is to have them scheduled for when the Senate rises because then they are concerned about whether they will be able to catch their return flights. It is my experience that they would prefer to know that in fact they are scheduled for two hours at 8:30 so they can make their travel arrangements definite.
The Chairman: I do not think we have much choice.
Senator Corbin: The new feature in this proposal is that we would now have two meetings per week whereas in the past we had one meeting per week. Am I correct?
The Chairman: No. Tuesday when the Senate rises and then Wednesday at 3:15 if the Senate rises.
Senator Corbin: So the new element is Thursday?
The Chairman: That is right.
Senator Corbin: I do not care for early morning meetings, but the committee can do whatever it wants.
The Chairman: Thank you.
As members of the committee know, we did produce an interim report which was made public during the summer and three reactions have come in. One from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, one from the Canada-Japan Trade Council and the third from the North-South Institute. I believe copies of those reactions have been distributed to the members of the committee.
All I am doing now is calling your attention to the fact that we have received these reactions. If a senator has not received them, we will have that corrected. Before we meet again, we should look at these reactions because it may affect the planning of our future work.
Also, we commissioned a study, an assessment of the prospects for trade liberalization in APEC. That document is now available. I have had a chance to read almost all of it. It reads quite well and I commend it to attention.
We come now to future business. May I suggest that at this point we proceed in camera. I do not mean that people who are not members of the committee should leave, but only that our reporting staff would not have to try to take minutes of the discussion. I suspect that there will be interjections and so on, and it may be very awkward to try to take minutes of that.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The committee proceeded in camera.