Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 22 - Evidence, September 23, 2003 - Afternoon meeting
HALIFAX, Tuesday, September 23, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 1:00 p.m. to examine and report on the need for a national security policy for Canada.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It is my pleasure to welcome you to the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence. Today we will hear testimony on the current situation relating to first responders.
My name is Colin Kenny. I am a senator from Ontario and I chair the committee.
We have here on my immediate right the distinguished senator from Nova Scotia, Senator Michael Forrestall.
Senator Forrestall has served the constituents of Dartmouth for the past 37 years, first as their member of the House of Commons, then as their senator. Throughout his parliamentary career, he has followed defence matters and served on various defence-related parliamentary committees, including the 1993 Special Joint Committee on the Future of the Canadian Forces.
At the far end of the table, on my far right, is Senator Michael Meighen from Ontario, a successful lawyer and businessman who was appointed to the Senate in 1990.
He has a strong background in defence matters, and is Chair of our Subcommittee on Veterans' Affairs. He is also a member of the Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce that is examining ways to improve corporate governance.
Beside him is Senator David Smith, who was a Toronto councillor and then deputy mayor. After that he was elected to the House of Commons and became a member of the cabinet of Pierre Elliott Trudeau before being appointed to the Senate in 2002.
He has had a distinguished career in law in Toronto and now serves on the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee and on the Senate Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament.
Beside him is Senator Jack Wiebe from Saskatchewan, who served as Lieutenant-Governor of Saskatchewan and as a member of the Saskatchewan Legislative Assembly before his appointment to the Senate in 2000.
Senator Wiebe's profession is farming. He is Deputy Chair of the Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry and also sits on the Senate Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament and on our Subcommittee on Veterans' Affairs.
At the opposite end of the table, on my far left, is Senator Tommy Banks from Alberta. Senator Banks is well known to Canadians as one of our most accomplished and versatile musicians and entertainers. He is the holder of the Order of Canada and is the winner of a Juno Award and of the Grand Prix du Disque. He was appointed to the Senate in 2000.
Senator Banks is the Chair of the Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, and currently his committee is studying nuclear safety and control.
Beside Senator Banks is Senator Norm Atkins from Ontario, who came to the Senate in 1986 with a strong background in the field of communications, and with experience as an adviser to former Premier Davis of Ontario.
Senator Atkins is a member of our Subcommittee on Veterans' Affairs, and also the Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration. He also serves as Chair of the Senate Conservative Caucus.
Beside him is Senator Jane Cordy from Dartmouth. She was and is an accomplished educator, with an extensive record of community involvement before coming to the Senate in 2000.
In addition to serving on our committee, she has been a member of the Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology that recently released a landmark report on health care, and is now studying mental health.
She was recently elected Vice-Chair of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association.
Our committee is the first permanent Senate committee with a mandate to examine security and defence.
Over the past 18 months, we have completed a number of reports, beginning with ``Canadian Security and Military Preparedness.'' This study, which was tabled in February 2002, examined the major defence and security issues facing Canada.
Then the Senate asked the committee to examine the need for a national security policy. So far, we have released three reports on various aspects of national security: First, ``The Defence of North America: A Canadian Responsibility,'' published in September 2002; second, ``For an Extra 130 Bucks...Update on Canada's Military Crisis, A View From the Bottom Up,'' published in November 2002; and most recently, ``The Myth of Security at Canada's Airports,'' published in January 2003.
The committee is continuing its long-term evaluation of Canada's ability to contribute to the security and defence of North America, having heard from witnesses about coastal defence yesterday.
As part of this work, the committee has been holding hearings on federal government support to the men and women who respond first to emergencies or disasters across the country. We heard from representatives from the Halifax Regional Municipality this morning.
Our work continues this afternoon with witnesses from the Nova Scotia Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee. They are: Ms. Ingrid Brodie, Acting Director, Public Safety Initiatives, and also co-chair of the committee; Dr. Jeff Scott, Provincial Medical Officer of Health; Chief Superintendent Ian Atkins, who appeared yesterday on behalf of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and Mr. Michael Lester, Executive Director, Emergency Measures Organization.
I welcome all of you to the committee.
Ms. Ingrid Brodie, Acting Director, Public Safety Initiatives, Policing and Victim Services Division, Nova Scotia Department of Justice; Co-Chair, Nova Scotia Public Safety Anti Terrorism Senior Officials Committee: We would like to share with you the issues that are of particular concern to Nova Scotia. It was clear from the hearings and the interest that you take in these issues that they are very serious.
I am joined today by members of the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee. That committee represents 12 departments, agencies and organizations in Nova Scotia. I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the major contributions that the committee members have made in preparing for your briefing today, as well as generally speaking in partnering in this important work.
In particular, I would like to highlight the work of Robert Purcell, the Director of Policy, Planning and Research, who has had a significant lead role in bringing these partnerships together.
We look forward to answering your questions at the conclusion of this briefing and, in particular, to discussing with you planning and decision-making with respect to emergencies.
You have already been introduced to the panel, but may I also say that we have representatives, I believe, from each department, agency and organization that sits on our committee so that we can field as broad a range of questions as may be of interest to you.
Today our committee hopes to leave you with two lessons that we have learned while doing our work. First, in Nova Scotia we believe that the responsibility for public safety and security cannot reside in a single department, agency or organization. It must be shared across governments and the private and voluntary sectors.
Our second message is that emergency planning must integrate consequence and crisis management professionals. We will detail those messages with examples during this briefing.
At the heart of good public safety and security policy is an appreciation of the work of first responders. When disaster strikes, be it the intentional act of a terrorist or a tragic accident, our communities in Nova Scotia and, I daresay, across Canada, immediately turn to first responders for help.
In Nova Scotia our first responders have significant experience. To give but a few examples, on September 2, 1998, Swissair Flight 111 crashed 12 kilometres off Peggy's Cove carrying 229 persons. On September 11, 2001, after terrorist attacks in the United States, 42 flights carrying 7,500 passengers landed at Halifax International Airport. Most recently in Nova Scotia, on March 31, 2003, floodwaters caused significant property damage.
This presentation will outline the approach Nova Scotia has taken to managing public safety issues. We will examine with you the lessons we have learned. We will briefly talk about next steps.
Shortly after September 11, 2001, Nova Scotia formed three public safety anti-terrorism committees — for ministers, deputy ministers and senior officials. It is the senior officials committee that is appearing before you today, but integral to the process are the committees of ministers and deputy ministers.
Each committee is chaired by the Department of Justice. As chair, the Department of Justice plays a stewardship role in ensuring that all relevant parties identify and respond to issues in a partnership model.
As mentioned, the senior officials committee is comprised of 12 departments and agencies, and we meet on a monthly basis, or more often, as necessary — for instance, every three weeks during the active phase of the Iraq war.
It is important to note that we are a body of decision-makers, not a decision-making body. Our mandate is to advise on policy and procedures, to foster coordination throughout all levels of government, from municipal government through to the international community, to examine existing emergency response systems for adequacy and to recommend on the allocation of resources.
Now let us turn to the first lesson that our committee has learned. In the minutes, hours and days following September 11, at least 23 different departments, agencies and organizations across all levels of government, as well as the public and private sectors, including the voluntary sector, managed the arrival of 42 flights carrying 7,500 passengers.
In addition to functions too numerous to mention, each of those 7,500 people were security-checked, lodged, fed and constantly informed about what was happening. It was a major undertaking, for which Nova Scotia received high accolades.
Relationships with all levels of government, from local federal agencies through to our strong municipal partners — you heard from them this morning — allowed us to respond effectively to the September 11 crisis.
From this experience, we learned that communications, links and relationships — the ability to truly work together — is the only way to prepare for and actually handle emergencies. This has led to a re-evaluation of the mental model, the paradigm, if you will, through which we understand public safety and security management. Sharing responsibility is a driving force of the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committees' structure and operation and it continues to inform our future work.
Our second lesson can be learned from Swissair Flight 111, which crashed off Peggy's Cove with 229 persons on board on September 2, 1998. In this new era, when any disaster can involve criminal activity, it is critical that first responders include both consequence and crisis management professionals.
Consequence management professionals include emergency measures organizations, fire services, the Transportation Safety Board, and the Departments of Health and Community Services, to name but a few. Crisis management professionals handle the investigative side of an event, and include police, intelligence and fire marshal's officials.
Historically, we have focused on consequence management first and investigation later. In a post-September 11 environment we must incorporate both approaches from the beginning. We must not only ensure that the public is safe as soon as possible after an emergency, and of course that is always the first priority, but we must also ensure that the public is safe in the long term through a concurrent and effective investigation.
In the case of Swissair Flight 111, the Transportation Safety Board, the RCMP, Halifax Regional Municipality EMO, Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia, firefighters and many volunteer organizations partnered early in order to ensure effective consequence and crisis management.
Through that experience, we learned that integration of these two fields, of consequence and crisis management professionals, is critical to the successful management of any emergency.
In Nova Scotia, the relationship with and leadership of first responders is undertaken by the following members of our Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committee: Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia, the provincial police, which is the RCMP, the Office of the Fire Marshal, the Departments of Health, Community Services, Natural Resources, and Transportation and Public Works.
Their specific work and relationships with first responders is detailed in our written submission. We have members present who will be pleased to answer any specific questions you have regarding emergency planning and first responders in Nova Scotia.
In Nova Scotia, we have done our best to be well prepared for emergencies. An important point is that we learn from each event and build that learning into future planning. Sustainability grows, in addition to other ways, from responding to incidents in which we build our ability to effectively coordinate with our municipal and local federal partners.
Our Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee has learned the value of operating as a standing committee. We are constantly reinvigorated by emerging issues and practical work.
We live in a complex global environment in which the menace we face often comes from individuals or rogue organizations. Our jeopardy can be compared to a virus; just when we believe we may be prepared, the threat changes. Like a virus, those who threaten us use our own infrastructure and freedoms to perpetrate crimes.
It is no longer possible to apply a static model with a strict separation of responsibilities as between governments, organizations or even departments in order to adequately prepare. Our response must be organic and dynamic.
In Nova Scotia, we believe that the responsibility for public safety and security cannot reside in a single department, agency or organization; and thus, we have shared that responsibility across government.
We have made strides in forging active and practical partnerships. We still work hard to overcome historic divisions of roles and responsibilities. Thus, our committee has not been ``stood down,'' even in times of relative calm.
In terms of next steps, we believe that the partnerships model needs to be extended by establishing equally vital regional and private sector collaborative efforts. Our hope is to build a model that offers an example of partnerships from the municipal through to the international communities, and through the public, private and voluntary sectors. It is only through shared accountability built upon tangible, active and growing partnerships that we can protect public safety and security in Nova Scotia.
Senator Forrestall: I always struggle not to be too blunt with this question, but who drives your bus?
Ms. Brodie: That is a question that we struggled with initially. That is why I carefully chose the word ``stewardship'' when I described the role of the Department of Justice. As stewards, we do not see ourselves as a lead agency, but as having a coordinating function.
To be plain, it took a series of meetings and also working on real projects that we solved together to build the relationships and the trust that were necessary to develop a model that would work.
We learned that work still goes on in particular departments and agencies. Having the mandate of the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee behind that work creates a driving force to see it through to its completion.
There is no one who actually drives the bus all the time. Perhaps the Department of Justice is the navigator, but we take turns driving the bus, depending on the issue.
Senator Forrestall: Who is on duty today?
Ms. Brodie: I would be on duty today.
Senator Forrestall: You are on duty tomorrow?
Ms. Brodie: It depends on the issue. This is where you begin to consider having a dynamic model. If you always have one agency as the lead, then an issue can arise that is most competently dealt with by another agency, or perhaps two or three other agencies partnering together, or departments, in order to handle it effectively.
Members of the committee will bring an issue to the committee table, brainstorm on its effective management as a group, and determine a fairly specific process of next steps that may then be farmed out to particular departments or individuals within the group.
We believe that dynamic process serves us well and allows us to be sufficiently flexible, given the uncertainty of the environment.
Senator Forrestall: I fail to follow it, but you are beginning to convince me that there may be something to this. Could you give me an example of how the committee leads an effort?
Ms. Brodie: Certainly. One concrete example would be during the active phase of the Iraq war. We were very concerned about ensuring that information on security issues be shared regularly, from the international community right through to the municipal community. If you had asked individual members of the committee how to ensure that intelligence information is shared, right through to the municipal community, they might have found that to be a difficult task.
As we sat as a committee, we realized that various members had tools at their disposal to flow communication information right through to the municipal level. By combining those tools, we could ensure that we covered the broad spectrum of individuals to whom we wanted to communicate information.
I understand why it can create confusion, but it is not always the committee that completes the work that needs to be done. The committee serves as a vehicle, to continue your analogy, to identify and brainstorm the issues and come up with the most cohesive, across-government approach in responding.
Senator Forrestall: Do you lend, then, less active leadership and more moral leadership and academic support? I doubt very much that Dr. Scott ever had to declare from first knowledge a serious outbreak of some disease in Nova Scotia in 24 hours. Usually, it is a matter of days or weeks. Usually, we are watching it in Saskatchewan creep towards Nova Scotia.
You are not leaders in the sense that if a plane crashed into the Imperial Oil refinery this afternoon, you would not have much hands-on involvement in that for the first 24 hours, perhaps even longer. The EMO would seem to me to be more relevant, but then it does not function as a committee. Am I right?
Mr. Michael Lester, Executive Director, Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia; Member, Nova Scotia Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee: I gather the Senator's question is —
Senator Forrestall: Who drives the bus? Who is in charge?
Mr. Lester: When such an event happens, I will normally activate EMO and, on behalf of the government, put things in place until such time as the cabinet will determine that somebody else should take over.
That is the process for 24/7 activation.
We would activate the government resources as required. If it was something more specific, and I believe you alluded to Dr. Scott and a health issue, then once again I would advise accordingly; we would act in support of the health initiative.
Senator Forrestall: However, in the meantime, the first responders — the firemen, policemen and medical teams — are busy doing their work. ``Do not bother me, see me when I get this fire out.''
Mr. Lester: Exactly. You heard this morning that we have a very strong partner in Halifax Regional Municipality. We have built the emergency response in this province from the bottom up. The municipalities, obviously, own the first response agencies. They are best positioned to deal with it. We do not come in and interfere with that. The police do what the police do; the firemen do what firemen do.
Our primary contribution to the process is logistical support when they are lacking resources that we can obtain for them, either from other governments or from our own resources.
It does become another partnership. Early in the proceedings, the operational heads from the various departments, agencies and so on would be meeting in the joint operations centre and designing the response. Again, it is partnerships.
Senator Forrestall: Perhaps it is crystal clear to my colleagues. I can understand how you participate in long-range planning and are advising government. Do you involve yourself in the fiscal side of the planning, interfacing between municipalities and the province and the federal government with respect to financing under the various available programs?
Do you, for example, identify available programs? Some of them are fairly creative and have led to some very innovative solutions to problems in some of our Canadian cities. Does it work that way? Is this an area that I could get a grasp on?
Mr. Lester: The Joint Emergency Preparedness Program of the Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Emergency Preparedness is the main funding vehicle utilized in this province, and yes, municipalities and the province work together with the federal office to bring that about within the usual budgetary parameters.
If the federal government does not get the best bang for the buck, it is pretty close to it, because it provides 50 per cent of the funding, it involves the other levels of government who participate, and sometime it is the catalyst that carries things forward when otherwise we would not make any progress. It has been a real resource.
Senator Forrestall: Do you then interface on dividing up the money? If there is $1.8 million available to Nova Scotia for anti-terrorism and public safety activity, do you say, ``Good, now we can resolve the problem in Sydney with the tar ponds''?
Would you play that kind of role? Would you say, ``Look, Port Hawkesbury should have a new pumper, it needs those little machines that identify what kind of a gas you are dealing with or what kind of a chemical it is'' and so on?
Ms. Brodie: Financial management and budgeting still occurs through the line department or agency process and with Treasury and Policy Board. The role that the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee would be to align and coordinate the presentations that might be made to Treasury and Policy Board with respect to the needs across the province and to ensure that they are the most efficient use of resources.
For instance, resources might be identified as necessary in the health field, and yet there are already some resources being applied through Emergency Measures Organization's partnership with municipal emergency measures.
The role of the committee would be to discuss and to ensure the most efficient deployment of those resources. The actual budgeting process is still through the line department and TPB, the standard budgeting process.
Senator Forrestall: Which is the line department for the province?
Ms. Brodie: As I mentioned earlier, 12 different organizations and departments are represented on the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committee. The nature of the issue would dictate which department would be seeking budget resources in order to solve a particular problem.
The strength of the committee is that the issues are identified at an across-government level, with the ability to push forward that agenda through the across-government forum that funnels up through the deputy ministers and ministers' levels of the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committee structure.
For instance, if a particular issue of concern came to the table of Public Safety Anti-Terrorism from one of our committee members, we would thoroughly discuss, plan and, with the lead no doubt of a particular department, prepare briefings.
Then, as a committee, we could then present those briefings to the deputy minister level and the ministers' level of the committee structure to have potentially greater success in the budgeting process.
Nova Scotia is a humble province, as you well know, and there is stiff competition for resources. The Public Safety Anti-Terrorism structure, in part, allows for an identification of the issues that the group as a whole feels genuinely require attention.
Senator Forrestall: How well is the line of acquisition of funds working? Are there areas of improvement that have come to your attention as you sit and discuss difficulties? Does it happen quickly enough, for example?
Ms. Brodie: I will give you a specific example to try to make the role of the committee more concrete. I know this has already been referred to in earlier briefings, but it was as a result of a specific incident that the threat assessment group in which our committee partnered was developed in order to streamline the process to handle emergencies.
Prior to the threat assessment group being established, when an emergency arose, there might be, as was discussed this morning, some confusion regarding the level of response necessary, who are the correct responders, how to coordinate them, and how to bring the resources from the local federal level to bear at the municipal level.
The threat assessment group was developed, in partnership with the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committee, to bring particular individuals and organizations together to manage an emergency response process as efficiently as possible.
You are correct that certainly our group is not the operational arm. Part of our message is that the operational arm can sometimes be so busy doing the work, given resource constraints, that it may be nearly impossible for the overall government's management and policy role to really come to the table in terms of identifying and managing issues. Our committee attempts to be that bridge.
Senator Forrestall: Do you have a secretariat?
Ms. Brodie: No.
Senator Forrestall: What department do you work for, or are you a provincial public servant?
Ms. Brodie: That is a very good question. Other provinces have, as a result of the new security environment following September 11, developed departments of public safety.
The model in Nova Scotia is very different. Due to our limited resources, we developed the model that joined the departments together. Originally, when that model was created, I am certain that from the ministers right down to the senior officials, everyone had a big head-scratch about, ``Well, how the heck can this get a real job done?''
What we have learned is that in fact it is the actual relationships — and it may sound like a very trite message — that we actually meet and force ourselves to problem-solve and work through issues at a senior level that can then be taken back to the operational levels, that is a genuine improvement.
People have different models of how to manage emergency planning, but curiously, it may be that when one creates a single lead, whether a department or organization, the strength, the dynamic abilities and the responsibilities of other departments and agencies are not brought to bear on particular issues.
Senator Forrestall: I see you as a body of sober second thought, just like the Senate.
The superintendent could be the lead, the doctor could be the lead, Mr. Lester could be the lead, or somebody that you have designated. That is while the emergency is still ongoing.
Once the emergency is under control, whether the fire is out or not, you can start your work. It may be that in the doing of that you would say, ``Well, we discussed this about three months ago and here is what we concluded. It worked then and it is probably going to work now, let's try this''; or, ``We have not looked at this situation, nobody thought of this. We have 24 hours, so we had better come up with some kind of an answer because the doctor needs some help or the superintendent needs some help.'' Maybe you help the Attorney General by advising whether or not certain other authorities and powers might be called into play. You would have a role in an advisory capacity — a knowledgeable advisory role because you are comprised of the main leaders in anti-terrorism. Do not confuse me with any more information.
Senator Atkins: Just so I am clear, under whose authority do you report?
Ms. Brodie: Treasury and Policy Board for the Province of Nova Scotia established the committee structure almost a month after September 11. The member from the Department of Justice chairs each committee. Thus the Department of Justice chairs the senior officials' committee, the Deputy Minister of Justice chairs the deputy minister's committee and the Minister of Justice and Attorney General chairs the minister's committee, and through that process report to Treasury and Policy Board.
Senator Atkins: However, if you need to report quickly, would you report to the deputy minister or the minister?
Ms. Brodie: It would depend on the issue. In a matter of great urgency, it would be directly to the minister and, contemporaneously, the deputy minister. There are also times, and Senator Forrestall's comments are well taken, that the operational issues preclude any reporting. People get on with handling the event.
Senator Cordy: We heard this morning about the partnerships for emergency measures. I think that all three levels of government — municipal, the Province of Nova Scotia and the federal government — should be congratulated, because it certainly seems to be an excellent model for all provinces to follow.
Just for clarification, there are three Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Committees, each chaired by the Department of Justice. One is a committee of ministers. Would that be each minister of the 12 departments that you said would be involved in emergency measures?
Ms. Brodie: The minister's committee is comprised of the particular ministries that have a significant interest — namely, the Departments of Justice, Health, Transportation and Public Works, Community Services, Natural Resources and the Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia, which presently is Economic Development.
The ministers' committee is a smaller group. The senior officials' committee includes other, separate organizations, in order to ensure that there is broad representation at the senior executive level. The group narrows as it reaches its peak.
The deputy ministers' committee is comprised of Treasury and Policy Board, the Department of Justice, the Public Prosecution Service, and the Departments of Intergovernmental Affairs, Transportation and Public Works, Health, Natural Resources, Community Services, and Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
I expect as well, although it has not happened so soon after the election, that the Deputy Minister of Economic Development will be added as now responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization. That is the deputy ministers' level.
I would certainly be pleased to forward committee lists to the Senate committee in writing if that would be of help.
The Chairman: Schematically it would be most helpful, if that is possible, Ms. Brodie.
Senator Cordy: Hw often would the other committees meet — the ministers' committee and the deputy ministers' committee?
Ms. Brodie: At a minimum, the ministers' and deputy ministers' committees meet for full briefings biannually, but that meeting schedule can ramp up as issues develop.
Senator Cordy: That would be full briefings by the larger officials' committee.
Ms. Brodie: Yes.
Senator Cordy: You have made the distinction that you are a body of decision-makers and not a decision-making body. One can assume that you can be a recommendation-making body, however. You would bring your recommendations to the deputy ministers' and the ministers' committees.
Ms. Brodie: Yes. That can happen in two different ways. If it were a recommendation that applies across the committee structure, then it would funnel up through the deputy ministers and ministers' level of the committees.
There are sometimes more specific recommendations that the committee would make in support of an individual member to carry forward through his or her department.
Senator Cordy: Some could be specific to the Department of Health, for example, or any number of departments.
Ms. Brodie: Yes.
Senator Cordy: I see Supt. Atkins there; does your officials' committee also include municipal officials?
Ms. Brodie: Our municipal representation is through the Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia because they have the links.
Mr. Lester: There are 55 municipal units in Nova Scotia, each with their own emergency measures organization. We require them by law to be prepared and we assess their level of emergency preparedness every two years.
We have three zones in this province with field staff, three zone controllers who are the interface with the municipal units. The communications network is in place so that should anything untoward happen, either in the municipal unit or something ``coming down the pipe,'' if you will, from the province, the contacts are there on a 24/7 basis. Our people collect the data out in those zone areas, the information, and funnel it through us.
There is a one-window concept in place, an MOU with the Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Preparedness, calling for the Minister of National Defence and the Minister Responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization of Nova Scotia to be the communications link. This also works down to the municipal units.
It is quite a convenient set-up. You heard Mr. Manuel this morning discussing how, when it gets to the point where he needs help, he would turn to me, and any provincial resources would be activated through that connection. He can get on with his own business and I go away and get busy. That works within the Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Preparedness.
During the response to 9/11, the Regional Director of OCIPEP and I became inseparable. Anything required federally, he got, and vice versa, so the process is well established and proven.
Senator Cordy: This morning we had a lot of discussion about communications within the organizations that are implementing a plan to deal with an emergency. What about communication to the public? I have read some of the early reports coming out on SARS in Toronto. Certainly communication with the general public was one of the issues that were highlighted as not done well.
Both people in the Toronto region and people across the country felt that they were not in the loop; they did not know what was going on, and that increases the fear factor among the public.
Who would be in charge in Nova Scotia in a situation like that? Does it depend on the issue, whether it is health or the Swissair disaster or September 11? Would the spokesperson vary according to which department was taking the lead, or is there an overall government spokesperson who would deal with it?
Mr. Lester: There is what is known as the emergency public information plan of the province that spells out how business is to be done. Communications Nova Scotia ultimately takes the responsibility for ensuring that no mixed messages are going out. It would be decided who would be the appropriate spokesperson for the government according to the incident. Perhaps if it were a health issue, then it would be somebody from the Department of Health, et cetera.
It goes beyond that, though, because you need coordination among your partners, the federal departments that are involved, as with Swissair, for instance — DND, the RCMP, the municipality. Sending out mixed messages will be a disaster in itself.
Therefore, they get together under the auspices of Communications Nova Scotia and anything in the way of published material is sent out instantaneously to all the media outlets in the province.
Senator Cordy: I would have to say, as a resident of Nova Scotia, the Swissair incident was an example of exemplary communication with the public. I certainly thought Dr. Butt kept the public apprised of what was going on at every opportunity.
Ms. Brodie, you said that we learn in Nova Scotia from events that have happened in Nova Scotia. Do you also look at things like SARS and reports that are coming out as a result of that? Do you also look at incidents that have taken place in other areas of Canada, or the world, to see how they were dealt with or how we could learn from them?
Ms. Brodie: I will invite Dr. Scott to share with us his experience as the provincial medical officer.
Dr. Jeff Scott, Provincial Medical Officer of Health, Province of Nova Scotia: There is no question that we do learn. Obviously in health, in public health, we are part of the surveillance system, part of the links into the World Health Organization and Health Canada. Linking also involves an understanding of the process and way of dealing with things. I think the committee is very valuable in that regard and I can give some specific examples.
One of the issues we were faced with in Nova Scotia during the SARS outbreak was our Health Act is quite old. We had to look at how we could, if necessary, deal with issues of home quarantine. That would involve discussion among those with expertise on the committee.
I brought those issues of SARS forward, what was happening from a health perspective in Toronto. At the same time, I was able to hear from partners at the table what was happening from the policing perspective, so we got the broad picture. We discussed ways we could deal with that.
Just prior to SARS, we had been working in Nova Scotia towards a new Health Act. We have a discussion document now, and obviously that will take into consideration up-to-date legislation that can deal not just with SARS, but other communicable diseases or health hazards.
I have submitted that to the committee for discussion because that expertise is there to help me, and to help us, understand how we can be as effective as possible. Many times, issues will be brought to the table that I had not realized I would have to think about from the health perspective — what does that mean, and is the Department of Health appropriately prepared.
The value of the committee can be seen in between crises. During a crisis, we go to emergency measures command and control, and I think we have shown that. The key is to maintain the work in between when you have all the other demands upon you, and to do that efficiently. I find the committee a very efficient way of communicating, brainstorming, learning and dealing with strategies.
For example, the practical issue in preparation for SARS for this year is the importance of making our flu vaccine program as extensive as possible. We are expanding our free vaccine to the police and fire services.
Now, how do we actually do that? How do we promote that? How do we ensure our essential workers are covered? I have representatives from those various groups at the committee, the information will be discussed and they will work as a conduit to get that out to their members.
It is that in-between work that is critical and helps us to be much better prepared for whatever the next event is.
Senator Cordy: A city the size of Toronto, and the Province of Ontario, certainly has greater financial and human resources to deal with communicable diseases than we have in Nova Scotia.
In Toronto they were able to close a hospital. They were able to transfer patients from one hospital to another. This is a small province. How would we deal with that?
Dr. Scott: The first thing is to make sure that you have a common framework plan, because you do not just have to be ready for SARS, you have to be ready for everything, which means having an all-hazard response.
We have a pandemic-influenza planning framework, and the national response to SARS was through a pandemic influenza group. We developed a framework for response to SARS that parallels that framework. That, in turn, means that our framework for CBRN events needs to be similar, so we do not have different plans. We have one plan that deals with many issues.
We immediately decided in Nova Scotia during the SARS outbreak that our first intent was to ensure that we could diagnose it quickly and prevent its spread. That would be our main aim, and that is critical, because the better you can do that, the better you are able to deal with those issues.
Secondly, we have nine health districts and the IWK. We arranged conference calls on an ongoing basis with the CEOs and the staff in those districts and the Department of Health.
We developed checklists so that we could be as prepared as possible. Then we went through some tabletop exercises. We set up some exercises and said, ``If you actually had this number of patients and this happened, how would you deal with it?''
Our aim, as much as possible, was to make our system efficient within Nova Scotia. We wanted to make sure that the entire province would respond to the situation. One case of SARS would result in a coordinated provincial response that would escalate, depending on the degree of threat and the situation.
If we were in a situation where the province could not cope, then as Mr. Lester will talk about, we have mutual aid agreements. There are two situations: One is the ability to send patients out of province. The other is having surge capacity. One of the key issues is a surge capacity that can move between provinces and territories.
Toronto needed help in the case of SARS. We might need help in the future. I think there is a lot of attention now, and there will be more after the Naylor report, on the ability to have health early response teams that can move — for example, come to Nova Scotia or move from Nova Scotia. Those should include individuals who are trained in outbreak management control.
We need to be able to cope as well as we can, but ensure that there is standardized training between all provinces and territories, so that I and my team could move to help somewhere else, and teams from elsewhere could move to help us.
Senator Cordy: Most provinces, and certainly Nova Scotia, have a shortage of health care personnel — nurses, doctors and other health care professionals.
You talked about surge capacities. How would we be able to send nurses, doctors, lab technicians and X-ray technicians to another province, and would other provinces have the resources to send them to us? You are in the discussion stages with other provinces regarding that?
Dr. Scott: After 9/11, the federal, provincial and territorial Ministers of Health asked for a review of the ability of the health system to respond to disasters, particularly those of public health significance.
There were certain issues that came out of that: having a coordinated response to disasters; having enough individuals who can move between provinces and territories — surge capacity; and, if necessary, getting assistance from the United States; education, ensuring we are all trained the same way so we could move between provinces and territories; communication; and the issue of having appropriate supplies. There has been work towards that.
SARS was both a threat and an opportunity. It meant that from the Health Canada and the provincial perspective, we had to focus on dealing with SARS. It is also an opportunity, because we were faced with real issues.
It means that you have to have trained people who are able to move around. Trained people are better able to respond to an incident in their own province anyway. If the incident occurs here and our personnel have up-to-date training that is national in nature, then we are better prepared.
In collaboration with the federal government, those individuals might need to move to help other provinces and territories. It is a model that is used in the United States.
I think if there were a province or territory in trouble, we would all want to help. You would have to balance that against the needs of your own jurisdiction. We had experience in Nova Scotia, when the Kosovo refugees arrived, of putting together teams to aid the refugees without compromising the Nova Scotia health situation.
It is a matter of making the bureaucratic process easier so that those trained, experienced and willing individuals can move and work easily.
Senator Cordy: The outbreak of any communicable disease would certainly would be a stressful situation for those working in it and who are going home to their families — children, parents, whomever. What pressures does a nurse experience, for example? Does she or he have the right to refuse to work in an emergency situation?
Dr. Scott: Well, it is a very difficult situation. Obviously, you have to ensure that the work environment, the training and the equipment are appropriate and meet the standards so that you can protect yourself.
At the same time, as a clinician, I feel I have an ethical responsibility to care for my patients. I still work in a practice. One of our roles in health is to make sure that the training and the equipment are there so that people can protect themselves.
Forcing people to work is a bigger issue. I feel that is part of what you do when you become a health professional.
The Chairman: Doctor, have you met with Drs. St. John, D'Cunha or Basrur since the SARS exercise?
Dr. Scott: I am a member of the Council of Chief Medical Officers of Health of Canada, and we have conference calls every two months and meet twice a year.
I met with Dr. D'Cunha a couple of weeks ago at the federal-provincial-territorial Ministers of Health meeting here. I have not met with Dr. Basrur since SARS, but Dr. Ron St. John takes part in our conference calls and meetings.
We have regular communication. I believe we had conference calls two or three times a week during the SARS episode. We are actively trying to maintain a coordinated approach to dealing with public health issues.
The Chairman: It struck me that one of the miracles of the Toronto SARS outbreak was the overwhelming number of people who voluntarily placed themselves in quarantine. Do you have legislation in effect in this province to provide for compulsory quarantine? Have you contemplated what you would do if you did not get the same sort of cooperation?
Dr. Scott: As I said before, our Health Act is quite old. We did add regulations so that, within the limits of our health legislation, quarantine was permissible. We have a new Health Protection Act going forward and, again, it has been submitted to the committee.
I did meet with members of the Department of Justice and some of the policing services. We are faced now with the need to develop a provincial smallpox contingency plan based on the national plan.
The answer is that I would do whatever I could under either existing or new legislation. I would call upon my colleagues in security, as appropriate, to enforce quarantine. We have looked at the legislation that has been introduced in Toronto, and in Ontario, to be sure this is up to date. We would do whatever we could, while recognizing that there also has to be an appeal mechanism so Charter protection is maintained.
The Chairman: Chief Superintendent, have you contemplated the problems involved in placing an individual in quarantine and the associated risks for officers trying to enforce such an order?
Chief Superintendent Ian Atkins, Officer in Charge, Criminal Operations Branch, Province of Nova Scotia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: I have had this discussion with Dr. Scott. Without a legislative basis for it, it does make it difficult and it becomes a matter of persuasion, which I hope our police constables are quite capable of doing.
Certainly the structure of the policing service in the province is well suited to that role. We have a little over 700 police officers in 45 locations throughout the province. We are more than likely to be the first responder to those kinds of things, to assist in the quarantine orders, or not so much orders, but quarantine requirements.
The Chairman: Given the nature of the transmission of SARS, that it is airborne, and over perhaps a meter distance, do you have protective clothing that the constables could wear in the event that they were endeavouring to effect such a quarantine?
Mr. Atkins: We have personal protection equipment that has been approved by our occupational health and safety officer. The specifics include things like gas masks, air-breathing canisters and rubber gloves. We have that sort of equipment available. At this stage, it is not at the precise locations, but is stored in Halifax and we would make it available on the basis of need.
The Chairman: Ms. Brodie, given that Halifax is an air hub, does the airport have plans to deal with the possibility of a SARS outbreak when the season returns?
Dr. Scott: The issue of SARS at airports is tied to the fact of returning international travellers, which is the responsibility of Health Canada, and CPR has taken a major role in that.
One of the critical issues in dealing with SARS at airports, quite frankly, is finding the evidence for what works. There was a lot of attention paid to screening of individuals with thermal probes and monitors.
It is clear, from discussions with my colleagues and public health experts, that there is not a lot of evidence for the effectiveness of those programs. I think it is important that we provide information to individuals, because if SARS were to appear, the majority of people who are returning are not ill and you will not detect them. The key is to ensure that they are provided with information so they know what to do if they become ill within 10 days of returning.
I think the other screening programs need to be evaluated to see whether it is the most appropriate way to use resources.
The Chairman: When you refer to ``other screening programs,'' you are talking about the thermal checking of people as they return?
Dr. Scott: That is right. There are some ongoing, worldwide trials to look at that. However, from what I have heard, they are not proving to be very effective. They will not pick up asymptomatic individuals.
What will be important from the Canadian perspective in the future is the concept of the ``CDC North'' that we are hearing about, which means that we will have enhanced expertise at the federal, provincial and local level, just like the Center for Disease Control in the United States. That means that we can base our practices as much as possible on evidence, and that is critical.
The Chairman: With the thermal measuring equipment, is the problem false positives or false negatives?
Dr. Scott: The problem tends to be twofold. You can detect a fever, but that fever may not be related to SARS. The other thing is that you will get people who are asymptomatic because they are in the incubation period. They are just like you and me; they are well.
Senator Wiebe: Ms. Brodie, I would like to go back to Senator Forrestall's first question, because I have difficulty satisfying myself about exactly what you do at those monthly meetings that you have.
Am I safe in assuming that if, for example, Dr. Scott comes before the committee and says, ``Well, what if this happens,'' then you sit down as a committee and throw around some ideas as to what can be done in that situation? Is that what goes on at those meetings, or something similar?
Ms. Brodie: Each of the committee members has an opportunity to present issues through the agenda process for a given meeting. I will give another concrete example that we have not talked about; the issue of having a security management plan for government continuation was brought before the committee.
A committee member identified that as an issue to be dealt with at the committee level and asked that it be put on the agenda. The group then discussed, bringing all of our different kinds of expertise to bear, the outline, so to speak, of the road forward.
Individual committee members worked on that particular issue to develop the operational plan. That is an example of an issue that bubbled up through the committee structure for discussion.
It is very interesting how, and I build on Dr. Scott's remarks, issues as divergent as how to manage a quarantine to the continuation of government can bubble up through the committee structure. We can then ensure that the expertise of all the committee members — and you are quite correct, it might be only four or five members who have particular expertise — will be brought to bear in the planning, and then it is taken back to the operational level through various committee members. It is a very dynamic agenda process.
Senator Atkins: Therefore, this is used to complement or enhance the provincial role in Nova Scotia. How would that relate to the federal role?
Ms. Brodie: I am not sure I understand your question.
Senator Atkins: The federal role in security and defence for the province of Nova Scotia.
Ms. Brodie: The RCMP is our provincial police force in Nova Scotia, and they have operational links with national security partners, namely CSIS, as well as numerous intelligence agencies.
They bring that expertise to the committee. However, they are also able to take issues from the committee to the national level, and sometimes, I daresay, the international level. One of the best practical examples of that was the sharing of intelligence information.
Originally, reports were available that could not be shared broadly. As a result of the work of our committee, as well as the work of other concerned individuals, of course, a new reporting process called the SABER reports was developed that produced intelligence information that could be shared right through to the municipal level without the need for specific security clearances.
The creation of those reports and the determining of a vehicle to share them, right through to the local mayor of Canso, were undertaken, both conceptually and then operationally, by the Public Safety Anti-Terrorism Senior Officials Committee. That is another practical example of the work that we do.
Senator Banks: Pursuing that same line of questioning, I understand that it is a provincial committee; it is a function of the province, but it involves municipal and health district organizations.
If the province is driving this particular bus and has involved the municipal and health district orders of government, other than the RCMP, in particular, which has access to the kinds of intelligence you are talking about, would it be beneficial or useful, or out of place, to have an OCIPEP member sitting on the committee to make it ``ecumenical''?
I am not volunteering anybody. That has obviously been considered. Is it a good idea or has it been rejected?
Ms. Brodie: The committee structure works such that as issues arise, we bring in representatives from federal agencies. OCIPEP could join our committee on a particular issue. In the near future, we will be receiving a briefing from and then having a problem-solving session with a federal Department of Transport official with respect to new regulations regarding wharf security.
The committee is a dynamic structure and we can add members to it in order to handle issues. That can also work with our municipal partners. Through the relationships we have, a municipal partner could participate in the committee structure in order to problem solve and brainstorm an issue, and sometimes bring an issue to the provincial agenda when there may be concerns for the committee to push forward.
Senator Banks: There are 55 municipal units in the province, from HRM right down to the smallest hamlet?
Mr. Lester: Correct.
Senator Banks: Nine health districts?
Dr. Scott: Nine health districts, and the IWK is a separate entity. It is a hospital for women and children within the capital district.
Senator Banks: Each health district contains, by definition, some sort of medical treatment facility?
Dr. Scott: All of them contain a major hospital, with the capital containing many.
Senator Banks: The three committees that you have described to us report to the Treasury and Policy Board. Would that be a priority cabinet committee?
Ms. Brodie: Yes.
Senator Banks: Chaired by?
Ms. Brodie: Presently, the Minister of Justice, I believe.
Senator Banks: Dr. Scott, I gather that you were speaking approvingly of the proposal of Minister McLellan for a Centre for Disease Control North.
Dr. Scott: I think the concept of enhancing public health services is important. It is also important that it be done in an efficient manner. The best example I heard was at a presentation from a doctor from the CDC in the United States.
He compared public health preparation or preparation for other incidents to a three-legged stool. What that meant is that if you think of the federal, the provincial-territorial and the local levels as the three legs of the stool, if one leg of the stool is weak, you will fall off.
In the United States, the CDC really devotes about 75 per cent of its funding to state or local initiatives. I think the concept is an integrated part of enhancing public health capacity that needs to connect not just federally, but also provincially, territorially and locally. It is certainly needed.
Senator Banks: Dr. Scott, when it comes to the question of health care professionals moving from one jurisdiction to another, and let's consider provincial jurisdictions, because you talked about that, talk about the accreditation difficulties in doing so. Can you practice in Alberta?
Dr. Scott: In order to practice, you have to be registered as a physician in that province or territory.
Senator Banks: That cannot happen in a day, can it? Or can it?
Dr. Scott: It depends. It cannot under normal circumstances. However, there are a number of issues that need to be dealt with. There are the issues of licensing and malpractice.
I believe that during the SARS situation, there was discussion in Toronto so that things could be expedited, and I know that some infectious disease specialists from Nova Scotia went to help in Toronto.
I know that the Canadian Medical Protective Association, which is the body providing malpractice insurance to physicians, allowed that insurance to continue for a short time under the amount you paid in your province of origin.
That is an issue that needs to be expedited across Canada. There is work to do on that, and I think SARS has accelerated the process.
Senator Banks: You talked about national standards in that respect. We are delving into health here, but it is a matter of national security as well. Do you think that eventually, if you have national standards, that you would have national accreditation of nurses, paramedics, pharmacists and doctors?
Dr. Scott: I think we could do something in the short term for urgent situations. The other is a big issue because there are a lot of jurisdictions with which to deal. I would like to see it happen because, in practice, the standards in the provinces and territories are very similar. The specialists' qualifications are pan-Canadian.
Senator Banks: Ms. Brodie, the three committees that you have talked about are not operational committees. They do not actually go out and do things. Have I got that right?
Ms. Brodie: I suppose it depends on the definition of ``do.''
Senator Banks: If a ship were to blow up in the harbour right now, you would have been involved before, making sure that that can be responded to properly, and afterwards to see how did we do.
Ms. Brodie: Although it is before and after the event, the committee would have an essential role.
Senator Banks: Right, exactly.
Ms. Brodie: There are individual members of the committee who have operational roles and possess that expertise.
Senator Banks: They are hands-on people. That is why they are there.
I presume that those hands-on people who will be the first responders conduct exercises from time to time. They might be tabletop exercises or they might be on-the-street exercises. Do the committees that you have described to us evaluate them?
You mentioned that one of your purposes is to ``examine existing emergency response systems for adequacy.'' I take that to mean that you would sit down and say, ``Did that exercise work? No, it did not. Here is how we can make it work better.'' Is that the kind of thing that you might do?
Mr. Lester: That is the mandate of my minister, to evaluate the emergency systems in the province and their level of preparedness. Since 9/11, we have participated in any number of exercises as a provincial organization with the other levels of government.
It was just about a year ago that we exercised the full provincial system from top to bottom, tested the communication system and what have you.
That is the full-blown approach. On any given day, there are exercises going on either at the provincial or municipal level in this province.
The Chairman: For the record, Mr. Lester, who is your minister?
Mr. Lester: The Minister of Economic Development, the Honourable Ernie Fage.
Senator Banks: How does the minister make that evaluation? I would have assumed that it would be efficient to have this committee make that evaluation and report to the minister. You are saying that is not what happens.
Mr. Lester: The emergency preparedness field is rather narrow. There are not a lot of us in it and the expertise is pretty well contained within our staff.
Senator Banks: So it is officials of the minister's department.
Mr. Lester: Yes, it is ultimately on my desk.
The Chairman: We have touched briefly on intelligence sharing. What I have heard is that you are very satisfied with the way intelligence is shared, at least that coming from Ottawa. Did I hear you correctly?
Ms. Brodie: We are satisfied with the process, yes.
The Chairman: How about OCIPEP? Are there ways that the Office of Critical Infrastructure and Emergency Preparedness can adjust the way it functions that would be more satisfactory, or is it also functioning just as you would like?
Mr. Lester: I would like to just preface my answer with the comment that during the major emergencies that we have had in this province, we have had nothing but excellent cooperation from the local federal authorities. They have always been there when we have needed them, whether it happened to be OCIPEP or any of the other federal departments.
I think the size of our emergency management community is such that whatever happens, we are all involved anyway, and there is a good relationship there. The other perspective is from Ottawa.
Briefly, leadership on the federal level needs work. We need a clear command and control system for federally led emergencies. We need to know that when something happens, there will be a lead department.
It seems there is a difficulty for the federal departments in identifying a chief among equals. I think a federal all- hazards emergency plan would capture what is required.
Of course, we are discussing security issues here, but for the everyday emergencies, which are much more plentiful, it is sometimes very difficult to identify who will carry the ball in Ottawa.
We saw voids recently in exchange of information during the Ontario blackout. We could not get any information out of Ottawa during 9/11. It was critical to our needs to know whether the American borders were closing or opening. What will we do with these 7,200 people? We never did hear from them.
We were fortunate that the Acting American Consul General offered to sit in the emergency operations centre and advise us on what was going on from Washington. It was effective but embarrassing.
A process needs to be put in place. I think probably our province is a little guilty of maintaining the silo effect within our departments. There is vertical communication, but lateral communication is lacking. I think there is a challenge in Ottawa on that issue, too.
The Chairman: What happens when you draw this to the attention of people in Ottawa? What answers do you get back?
Mr. Lester: Encouraging comments but nothing specific.
The Chairman: Keep up the good work, young man?
Mr. Lester: Something along that line, sir.
The Chairman: In a more serious vein, have you sat down with the people at OCIPEP and said, ``Look, what is going on here?'' If you want more specific examples, if it is a natural disaster, the flow charts tend to point towards the Minister of Defence. If it is a national security question or a terrorist event, the flow chart tends to point more towards the Solicitor General. Have you sat down with people from either of those departments and said, ``Look, we do not think we are properly connected''?
Mr. Lester: I think the issue of terrorism and security has been addressed, because the federal Solicitor General has been clearly identified for that purpose. It is for the other, day-to-day things that it becomes more difficult.
The Chairman: Could you give us day-to-day examples, then, so that we can relate to what you are referring to?
Mr. Lester: Of course, the 9/11 issue is one.
The Chairman: I had not thought of that as day to day.
Mr. Lester: Major emergencies do not happen day to day. To the credit of OCIPEP, we were asked for our input as late as June of this year. Four provinces, including Nova Scotia, were on the body that was asked, ``How can we improve,'' and we think they listened to us. It was a one-day meeting in Toronto. How that carries forward and how quickly is a matter of speculation.
The Chairman: That is an interesting question. Are you saying that you are sending messages in bottles and bottles are not coming back to you?
Mr. Lester: There have been a number of challenges across the board since 9/11. Security clearances come to mind. It is an issue, and it is not easy to solve. The number of people who are required to have intelligence information clearance expands when you get down to the provinces and the municipalities — for instance, HRM.
To the credit of CSIS and the RCMP, they have made that a lot easier with the sharing of information. I think the document was mentioned here earlier, SABER. We do not need to know where they got the information. We just need to know if the bridge is going to come down.
Where we do run into difficulties, and our American partners are in the same predicament, is that to access some of the federal facilities, such as the RCMP and the DND emergency operations centre, for want of a more specific term, one requires a security clearance to the level of secret. We have to provide liaison officers. We cannot go there. We can sit outside but we cannot enter.
These security factors are a universal issue in North America.
The Chairman: Is it that you cannot get clearance or that there are too many people who need to be cleared?
Mr. Lester: I think that is the bottom line. The challenge is enormous when you start looking across the country at those you might want to include. If there is a major event going on here, municipal officials should be in there as well, bearing in mind that it takes three people to fill every position in the emergency operations centre because of shift changes.
The Chairman: If we asked the same question of OCIPEP, what do you think they would say about your operation?
Mr. Lester: Our operation with respect to the security end?
The Chairman: What is it like dealing with the people in Nova Scotia?
Mr. Lester: I think they would say the executive director is outspoken. Regardless, we have a good relationship locally and certainly there is no animosity. I think we respond a lot quicker than they do. I do not think that they take particular offence at how we do business. We have worked together on some major operations in the past five years and built some good relationships. I think we have credibility with them.
The Chairman: We did have this question answered this morning but I would like to have it answered again. Senator Forrestall and I had an interesting experience. We had been briefed by officials of Health Canada about stockpiles of supplies that are placed around the country and are supposed to be available for emergency purposes.
The first time we tested it, by asking local officials about the stockpiles, they had never heard of them, and a couple of days later went out and actually found them and were very disappointed. Is that your experience, or have you had a different experience with the emergency supplies that Health Canada has placed in the province?
Dr. Scott: Maybe I can answer that. Certainly there has been improvement and that is one of the initiatives that was identified in the report to the federal and provincial/territorial Ministers of Health, enhancing this stockpile, the national supply. In Nova Scotia we have, I believe, 12 major depositories that our Emergency Health Services is responsible for monitoring. That has been the tradition. In the past, it has tended to be the traditional, mass-casualty- type situation, the trauma situation. We now have antibiotics on hand to deal with an anthrax-type scenario. There is some atropine available through Poison Control.
There is the ongoing issue now of whether they have an adequate supply of smallpox vaccine, but I think there has been an agreement at the national level to purchase more.
Certainly it is there in Nova Scotia. I regard it as additional to what we need to have anyway. It is monitored by our health services. Mr. Lester would activate the emergency response to get access to it. I have the numbers of individuals to call in my bag, should we need it.
We have in the past tried to get blankets through that system. Yes, it is improving. It is better monitored. It is a dynamic system and we need to make sure that it is more coordinated with our provincial resources.
The Chairman: Did you have any say in what was included in each of the caches?
Dr. Scott: Not specifically, although there is discussion. What is happening now, particularly in the CBRN situation, such as the chemical antidotes, is they are talking about which new antidotes they would consider developing and purchasing. There was some ongoing discussion.
SARS threw everything off schedule and those discussions will be resuming, I believe.
The Chairman: Have you or your officials actually visited each of those locations and are you satisfied with what is there? Is it there in the right order? Can you access it the way you want? I ask because when we asked the same question in Ontario, which has a different system of public health, they had no clue. I am curious.
Dr. Scott: In Nova Scotia there is an annual review by Emergency Health Services and I have copies of the latest report.
The Chairman: The users have been out there. It will not be their first trip if there is an emergency. They will have visited these stockpiles and will be familiar with where to get what they need quickly?
Dr. Scott: Not necessarily the users. I could not speak to the details of that. Someone in Emergency Health Services visits them on a provincial basis and monitors them. Some of the users know what is there and they are the ones who can make sure that the users involved in a particular situation can access them.
The Chairman: That is the link I am concerned about. If we go back to the St. John, D'Cunha, Basrur link in Ontario, which involves the federal government, your equivalent provincially and the MOH for Toronto, there seems to be a breakdown between the provincial level and the municipal users. I am asking you, ``What is the link like?'' You say you are familiar with it, but are the people in Bridgewater who will have to actually access the equipment familiar with where to go to get their supplies, do they know the route, do they have the combination to the lock and so on and so forth?
Dr. Scott: Nova Scotia is different, of course, from Toronto, particularly in terms of emergency health services and emergency medical care. That is a provincial resource that serves all the districts. That is why it is the organization's provincial resource that has the key to the lock. When I say ``the users,'' those are the people who would have to get it and deliver it to the hospital workers, et cetera. We look at it as a provincial resource, even though we have health districts.
The Chairman: They have been there, they have done it, they have seen it and you have no doubts about it actually getting to where it would be properly used if it was needed?
Dr. Scott: I have no doubts that we could get it to where it was needed.
Senator Forrestall: Mr. Lester, do you know what is in that cache? If I were to suggest to you there was a fully equipped 200-bed hospital, would you accept that?
Mr. Lester: Yes, but to know exactly what the inventory might be, I would be looking to Dr. Scott or Emergency Health Services.
Senator Forrestall: Well, Dr. Scott, would you accept it if I said to you there is a 200-bed hospital in that cache? Do you know that?
Dr. Scott: I have the list of what is there. However, in fact, if there was a need for that in the Department of Health, part of our emergency operation plan calls for including around the table the various people involved in the all-hazard approach and the representative from Emergency Health Services, the ones who visit the sites and know what is there.
So I would say, ``We need this,'' and they would know where it was. I rely on the people who have the responsibility for monitoring that to be aware and up to date. They are the ones who know the specifics because they inspect the caches.
Senator Forrestall: If you have nothing to do some Sunday morning, get the key and go and look.
Dr. Scott: Yes, I know there are 11.
Senator Forrestall: I would hate, as someone involved in public life for almost 40 years now, to have to face somebody and say, ``Well, why did you not go and look?'' I think the phrase is ``due diligence.''
The Chairman: Senator Forrestall is saying this because we have said it elsewhere, and when they came back from looking they really did not like what they found.
Senator Forrestall: They found a handful of blankets. In fact, I think they used the term ``dirty.'' We were told this morning, incidentally, that somebody has looked and there is a 200-bed hospital and a team ready to man it.
The Chairman: There are seven surgeons sitting on stools waiting there.
Senator Cordy: Just as a follow-up to Senator Kenny's questions, you said that there was difficulty in getting a response from federal departments. Was this every department — The Departments of Health, Solicitor General, Transport, Defence, or is one department worse than the other?
Mr. Lester: I believe I was commenting in the context of 9/11. We were advised at the time that an edict had been issued from Ottawa that nobody was to speak to anybody outside the government about the issue.
Senator Cordy: Outside of the federal government?
Mr. Lester: Therefore getting information from anybody in Ottawa was difficult. There was no problem in getting information from my colleagues on my left. We invited local representatives of the run-of-the-mill departments in Ottawa, the Department of Transport, for instance, to the operational commanders' meetings in the operations centre, and never did hear from them.
Senator Cordy: That is unacceptable, in my opinion, considering the number of planes that landed in Nova Scotia.
Nova Scotia incurred a lot of costs during the Swissair disaster and 9/11. Have we been reimbursed for the costs by the federal government?
Mr. Lester: The total is $546,000. The major part of that cost was money we paid to the municipalities for such things as meals, housing and what have you. The bill was not submitted until spring 2002. We have been waiting a little over a year.
Senator Cordy: They would have known that a bill was coming eventually.
Mr. Lester: We took the position that international terrorism was not an issue for either the municipality or the province.
Senator Cordy: You still have not received the money?
Mr. Lester: No.
Senator Cordy: That is a lot of money for a small province like Nova Scotia.
Senator Banks: Has anybody said, ``It is in the works, it is in the mail?''
Mr. Lester: ``We are looking at it,'' I believe were the words, senator. I think the province has been talking to Ottawa on the issue. I assume we are waiting to hear what they have to say.
Senator Banks: When the lights went out last month in some parts of North America, the recent big blackout, the Prime Minister's Office was reduced to passing out handwritten communiqués because they were electrically challenged. I am sure that all of the major hospitals here, in the event of an emergency like that, have back-up generators so they can keep going. Does the government have a back-up generator so they can keep going and communicate with people and the computers will work?
Mr. Lester: In a word, yes.
Senator Banks: There is another lesson that we can learn. I will mention Senator Cordy's subject of this morning because it really is a provincial matter and I am sure that you have heard of it.
In order to reach the largest number of people as quickly as possible in the event of an unforeseen emergency, it is technically possible for somebody in an office somewhere, having determined that it is an emergency, to literally push a button and interrupt every broadcast — commercial, private, public, cable, television, radio, you name it — and for those few seconds, broadcast an emergency warning.
Such a system covers virtually the entire province of Alberta. It is very inexpensive. It is a provincial initiative. I am wondering whether you have contemplated such a thing in Nova Scotia? In Alberta it is used very often for tornado warnings, for example.
When something genuinely emergent happens, about which the largest number of people need to be told in the shortest possible time, interrupting every broadcast of every nature is a very effective, efficient and cheap way of doing it.
Mr. Lester: Yes, we have. I am familiar with the Alberta system. Indeed, it does work. We have gone from one initiative to another. I believe Mr. Manuel mentioned this morning the one that both HRM and Emergency Measures Nova Scotia supported through the CRTC.
Senator Banks: That was a commercial undertaking.
Mr. Lester: It was.
Senator Banks: Somebody was going to make a profit from that. It was a provision of a service for a fee — different story.
Mr. Lester: Yes, sir, and the answer to the question of have we pursued the issue is no, we have not. Would we like to? Yes, although even small amounts of money are a challenge for our organization. We have a staff of eight at EMO and a budget of $600,000, so it has not been a priority. Would I like to have it? Certainly.
The Chairman: We had described to us a telephone communication system in existence in the Halifax region. Does it exist elsewhere in the province?
Mr. Lester: No, it does not. The system that Halifax has was actually put in a number of years ago as a crime prevention measure, if my memory serves me correctly. It has the capacity to be used for other things and it certainly does work.
As to introducing it in other areas of the province, again, the issue for municipalities at budget time is priorities. It is not just a matter of dollars. It sometimes runs into difficulties, given the choice between having a few dollars for the emergency generator that needs to be replaced and adopting the warning system.
About a third of the population of Nova Scotia is now served by HRM. That is where it stands.
The Chairman: Have you studied it, Mr. Lester?
Mr. Lester: Yes, I am familiar with it, senator.
The Chairman: Is it possible to provide the committee with details?
Mr. Lester: With your concurrence, I would ask Mr. Manuel to provide the details because I do not have them.
The Chairman: Then we will contact him. Thank you.
On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank you very much for coming today. It has been very instructive for us, very helpful to the committee. We appreciate the time and effort that you took to assist us in this study.
I hope you will find the report that we ultimately issue to be of value to you.
The committee adjourned.