Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence, October 29, 2002
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 29, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:30 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Tõnu Onu, Clerk of the Committee: As the clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair of the committee. I would ask for nominations for the position of the chair of the committee.
Senator Day: I should like to move that Senator Lowell Murray be appointed Chair of this committee.
Mr. Onu: Are there any other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Day that the Honourable Senator Murray be Chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Onu: I would invite Senator Murray to take the Chair.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Unaccustomed, as I am, to running elections, much less winning them, I thank honourable senators for your confidence.
This was the first committee I joined 23 years ago when I became a senator. It was then under the distinguished chairmanship of Senator Doug Everett of Manitoba, and Senator Doody was with me on that committee during those years. I have served on this committee off and on ever since and have been its chairman off and on since about 1995. I consider it a great honour. It is one of the premier committees of the Senate and of Parliament. I believe we have done good work, and we have done so always in a very productive and collegial fashion.
Just for the record, let me mention the highlights of what we did in the first session of this Parliament. We held 59 meetings, during which we heard 148 witnesses. We reviewed the Main Estimates for 2001-02, and began examination of the Main Estimates for 2002-03. We reviewed three sets of Supplementary Estimates, covering the years 2001 and 2002. We examined five bills. We carried out three special studies, namely, the effectiveness of the present equalization policy, the role of the government in the financing of deferred maintenance costs in Canada's post-secondary institutions, and the administrative contract at the Goose Bay Labrador airfield. We presented 20 reports during the session.
We have done good work. We have done it together. I look forward to working with all of you again. I am glad to see some familiar faces back on the committee. For those of you who are joining the committee for the first time, I welcome you and look forward to working with you.
The first item on our agenda is the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Bolduc: I nominate Senator Day to be deputy chair.
The Chairman: Senator Bolduc proposes the name of the Honourable Senator Joe Day as Deputy Chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: It is my pleasure to declare Senator Day elected as Deputy Chairman of this committee.
Congratulations, Senator Day. We all look forward to working with you.
Senator Day: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will not make an extensive speech, like our chairman.
The Chairman: But you subscribe to the one I have made.
Colleagues, the chair will entertain a motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Senator Finnerty: So moved.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, there is now a series of seven or eight routine motions here that we normally pass on opening day. I will put the motions to you. If there is anyone who has any substantive objection to any of these motions, I will stand that motion until next week for whatever clarification or discussions may be required.
That the committee print its proceeding; and
That the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator Doody: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion:
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Mahovlich: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion:
That, pursuant to Rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
I have the draft report in front of me. I believe honourable senators also have it in front of them. We spent the grand total, by order of reference, of $12,000 and change.
Is there a mover for that motion?
[Translation]
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth that, in accordance with Rule 104 of the Senate, the Chairman be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
[English]
The chair will entertain a motion:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Senator Day: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
Senator Doody: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
[English]
Senator Cools: Perhaps we could have some debate on this particular motion. Many of the motions claim to be routine. I do not see many of them as routine.
What does item No. 9 mean?
The Chairman: I think we had this very dialogue on opening day, last time, you and I, senator.
If the committee decides to send one of its members or staff to a conference, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure would designate that person and that staff to travel.
If you need further clarification and precedents for this, we will stand the motion.
Senator Cools: Perhaps we should stand it because the motion contains no provision whatsoever for the committee to have any report on how those choices are made or for what purposes.
The Chairman: Fine.
Senator Cools: If people are representing us, we should know who they are, how they are chosen and what are the criteria and the purposes.
The Chairman: I will stand the motion.
The chair will entertain a motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Senator Cools: Again, I think this was the motion that was the subject of some considerable discussion in the last couple of meetings, and I do not understand it. I did not understand it then, and I still do not understand it. I have problems, as I said before on two occasions, with the subcommittee of this committee being able to make these kinds of determinations about senators in the absence of any clear-cut criteria or debate from amongst us.
The Chairman: We will stand the motion, senator, and perhaps a week's dialogue and reflection will —
Senator Cools: Will help us to be clearer.
[Translation]
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Day that, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
And the question being put on the motion, it was adopted in the affirmative.
[English]
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Furey: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I draw your attention to the fact that our regular time slot is Tuesday, 9:30, in room 705 of the Victoria Building. Exceptionally, we may meet also on Wednesday when we have a heavy agenda, and that meeting would be at 6:15 p.m. in this room.
These decisions are made elsewhere.
Senator Doody: Could we get an earlier time? The Senate rises at three o'clock on Wednesday.
Senator Cools: No, we do not.
Senator Doody: Some of us do.
The Chairman: The difficulty is, I am told, that there are some committees that meet when ``the Senate rises.'' I suppose there may be conflicts. Some senators who are on this committee, for example, are on committees that meet when the Senate rises. Therefore, all the committees that meet on Wednesday afternoons that do not meet when the Senate rises have now been pushed 30 minutes ahead, to 6:15 p.m. These decisions, as I say, are taken elsewhere, unfortunately. One is informed, not consulted.
Senator Doody: It just seems to me that 6:15 p.m. is a strange hour to meet. There is conflict for all of us with other committees. Others are in the same boat. A few of us have to look at a 6:15 p.m. Wednesday meeting. If there is nothing you can do, then there is nothing can you do.
Senator Bolduc: Usually committees meet at 3:30. Normally, by 5:30, the committee is through; beyond that it becomes unproductive, most of the time.
Senator Day: Foreign Affairs meets Wednesdays at 3:30.
Senator Bolduc: Normally, we should be through at 5:30.
There may be a half hour overlap, and they will just decide what they wish to hear.
Senator Finnerty: We have our meal at 5:30. We could eat while we are waiting.
Senator Cools: One would say, honourable senators, that normally committees meet at 3:30, but the actual fact is that they really do not. The actual fact is that most Wednesdays Senate business goes past 3:30. The intention of the Senate is to adjourn at 3:30, but on many Wednesdays, it simply does not happen.
Perhaps it is time to debate how these decisions are made. Someone decides, not us, how many committees meet, where the committees will meet and at what times they will meet. It is simply not at liberty for some committees to decide on their own that they want to meet earlier, later, or whatever, because what happens is it seems to disturb the entire pattern of committees, and also meeting rooms. Some of these meeting rooms are simply not available until those assigned times, because it is all part of a planned agenda of committee meetings. I think the word they use is ``accommodation'' of the rooms, the assignment of the rooms.
Senator Doody: I think I am pretty well aware of the system that governs the meetings of committees. I am also aware of the fact that representations are sometimes made to get a better slot for a committee that has been around a lot longer than many of the committees that are currently in style in the Senate.
I simply asked if it was possible to get a different time slot than 6:15 on Wednesday. I am not suggesting that we disrupt the proceedings of the Senate, nor change the system. I am saying we have a right to ask for a better time so we do not have to sit at 6:15.
The Chairman: I will undertake, senator, as I have done in the past, to try to avoid the second meeting by trying to get our business done in one meeting.
Senator Doody: I have succeeded in that, too.
The Chairman: On Tuesdays, we should try to ensure that we get our business done, so that the Wednesday meeting will, indeed, be exceptional.
Senator Doody: It is very difficult to do five days work in three days. That has been our problem since we came here.
The Chairman: Of course.
Colleagues, I am going to suggest to you that, if it is convenient, we might meet a week from today at this time in camera to discuss future business of the committee. I will take the occasion before then to meet with the deputy chairman and the other member of the steering committee, whomever that may be, to consult on the matter.
Meanwhile, I will have circulated to you a one-page document entitled ``Possible Committee Business in New Session,'' which includes unfinished studies from the first session, issues that may require follow-up, new issues that were proposed by various senators, Estimates-related issues, et cetera. I will undertake to have this translated and circulated to all members of the committee over the next few days.
Senator Day and I, and whoever is nominated as the third member of the steering committee, will consult on the matter as early as tomorrow.
Senator Bolduc: If we could receive it before Thursday afternoon, I would appreciate it, because I might be away.
The Chairman: That will be done. The only agenda thing we know for sure is that Supplementary Estimates will come down in late November. Supplementary Estimates will come down imminently. Therefore, we will want to have the officials at least of Treasury Board, if not the minister, before us as expeditiously as possible so that we can complete that work in order to enable the inevitable interim supply bill to go forward in the Senate.
I hope they do not squeeze us too much for time, but Supplementary Estimates is the one thing that we know we will need to do in the next little while.
Senator Bolduc: There is also apparently a major overhauling of the civil service.
The Chairman: There has been a lot of talk about that, senator, and if it comes, it comes. We had thought of doing some work in anticipation of the legislation, but I am not sure that that would necessarily be the prudent thing to do. I get the impression that the issue is rather up in the air.
Certainly, it will not be possible to meet Madam Robillard's timetable. When she was last here she talked about legislation this fall, but that is a matter we can discuss next Tuesday morning in camera.
Is there other new business to come before the committee at this time?
If not, I declare the meeting adjourned until next Tuesday morning at 9:30 in camera to discuss future business.
The committee adjourned.