Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 4 - Evidence - Meeting of February 8, 2005
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 8, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, to which was referred Bill C-14, to give effect to a land claims and self-government agreement among the Tlicho, the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Government of Canada, to make related amendments to the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, met this day at 9:37 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Nick G. Sibbeston (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I would like to introduce members of the committee to our witnesses. We have Senator Christensen, from the Yukon; Senator Léger, from New Brunswick; Senator St. Germain, from British Columbia; and Senator Watt, from Northern Quebec. I thank the Tlicho people for travelling such a great distance from the Northwest Territories to be with us today for our deliberations on Bill C-14. We are privileged and honoured to see so many of you here from so far north. You have come here to see the passage of this bill through the Senate.
I have been informed that the Tlicho always begin their meetings and events with a prayer. Iwould ask Mr. Zoe to introduce the Elder who will lead us in prayer. I would ask everyone to stand, please.
Mr. John B. Zoe, Chief Negotiator, Dogrib Treaty 11 Council: Elder Mr. Edward Weyallon will lead us in prayer.
(Prayer)
The Chairman: Following our deliberations on Bill C-14, the committee will report to the Senate.
Please proceed, Mr. Zoe and Chief Nitsiza
Mr. Zoe: I will introduce the members. Chief Nitsiza will make the opening statement. I will follow up and we will be pleased take questions after that. With me today is one of the Tlicho negotiators, Mr. Erasmus, as well as Chief Charlie Nitsiza from Wha Ti; Mr. Salter and Ms. Bertha Rabesca-Zoe, both from Pape & Salter.
Deputy Grand Chief Charlie J. Nitsiza, Dogrib Treaty 11 Council: I would like to make my presentation in the Tlicho language because many of our Elders do not speak English. Mr. Erasmus will interpret.
[Interpretation]
Thank you, Senate committee members for taking the time to listen to us. I would like to acknowledge that we have over 60 delegations of Tlicho here who have travelled to Ottawa. They are here to witness Canada's democracy in action. I am the Wha Ti chief. With me today is the negotiating team and our legal counsel.
We are the Tlicho and we live in the four communities in the Tlicho area of Behchokò, Wha Ti, Gameti and Wekeezhii in the Northwest Territories. We speak the Tlicho language and our way of life includes hunting, fishing and trapping.
I would like to thank the Elders who worked with us as advisers during the negotiations. They are Mr. Alexis Arrowmaker, Mr. Jimmy B. Rabesca, Mr. Harry Simpson and Mr. Joe Migwi. The Elder advisers were able to travel to Ottawa before Christmas to witness the third reading of Bill C-14 in the House of Commons and first reading in the Senate.
During negotiations, we lost an Elder adviser, Mr. Johnny Nitsiza, but his wife Dora; older brother, Phillip; and grandson Vincent are here with us. As well, we lost our chief, Eddie Paul Rabesca, but his wife, Rosa, their eldest son Larry and their daughter Claudia are here with us.
In 1921 our leader, Monfwi, signed Treaty 11 with Canada. Today our land claims and self-government agreement is based on what Monfwi said at that time and what Chief Jimmy Bruneau said in the 1960s when our school was built. In 1971 then Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs, Jean Chrétien, came to Rae to open the Chief Jimmy Bruneau school in Edzo. Chief Bruneau stated at that time that he wanted the Tlicho people to be strong like two people and to be able to live in two worlds and speak both languages, Tlicho and English.
We have lost many of our Elders during the negotiation period. Our Elders and the Tlicho mandated the Tlicho negotiators to negotiate a land claim based on what Monfwi and Chief Jimmy Bruneau had said. The Tlicho land claim and self-government agreement took over 10 years to negotiate, which began in 1992.
Throughout the negotiation period, the Tlicho negotiation team updated the Tlicho people on the status of the negotiations. The Tlicho negotiation team shared with the Tlicho people the whole agreement at annual gatherings, regional meetings and at tours of communities.
In June 2003, the Tlicho people ratified the Tlicho agreement when 92 per cent of those who came out to vote, voted in favour of it. The Tlicho have been waiting patiently to have the agreement ratified by both governments, especially since August 2003 when then Prime Minister Chrétien came to Rae to sign the Tlicho agreement along with then Premier Stephen Kakfwi and Grand Chief Joe Rabesca. There were many in attendance, such as Senator Sibbeston, the Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Ms. Sue Barnes and Mr. Phil Fontaine, to name a few. The Tlicho celebrated that historic day. The Government of the Northwest Territories unanimously passed the Tlicho legislation in October 2003.
The Tlicho agreement is not just for the Tlicho of today. It is for future Tlicho generations. Under the agreement, the Tlicho government will give us the tool we need to govern ourselves. We can pass that on to our future generations so that the Tlicho way of life, culture and language will be protected and preserved for generations.
We are preparing our youth for this future. We are working with our schools and agencies to ensure that our youth are prepared. We work with the Elders as they are our link with the past and they ensure our future. We are strong like two people.
The Tlicho have ratified and are happy with the Tlicho agreement. The Tlicho completed their part of the ratification process, and it is now Canada's turn to honour its commitment.
The Tlicho agreement is going through the parliamentary process for the second time. It is now going through the final steps, the Senate legislative process, which is why we are here. The Tlicho people urge this Senate committee to pass the Tlicho bill as soon as possible so that Tlicho self-government can be a reality.
It is indeed an honour for us to be here and we thank you for allowing us to speak on Bill C-14.
I will now ask Mr. John B. Zoe, our Chief Negotiator, to make a statement and then we will be pleased to answer questions.
[English]
Mr. John B. Zoe, Chief Negotiator, Dogrib Treaty 11 Council: Our journey to this point started quite some time ago with me and Senator Sibbeston when he was the minister of local government in the early 1980s. One of the initiatives taken by the territorial government in the Northwest Territories was to set up regional councils. We had just emerged from the bushes, you might say, and were becoming organized in today's modern times. We were getting documentation on record which led us to where we are today. We were not familiar with the rules and procedures of regional councils. I was invited by Senator Sibbeston to go with him to Pond Inlet to observe and learn about how the Baffin Regional Council conducted its business. We were subject to the elements of the area. We were winded in for three days. When that happens, all the services in a community stop. That experience remains in my mind. It made me aware of the remoteness of the people who live in the North and the extreme weather conditions under which they survive.
It is a real pleasure to sit here before this committee chaired by Senator Sibbeston because we shared that early journey. The Tlicho agreement has been a long journey and, as part of the parliamentary process, it is now before this Senate committee for your consideration and approval. It is a real pleasure to be here amongst the Tlicho people who have come to witness the process of ratification by Canada and to see the landmarks of Ottawa that describe the journey that Canada has made to where it is today.
In the Tlicho world, as in the world of other Aboriginal peoples, we did not have a written language but we had an oral history that was documented on the lands. A past event has a marker in the form of a place name that describes the event of the time. We know from oral history and the place names that the Tlicho agreement is not the only agreement that we have had. It is an extension of earlier agreements. From the place names and from what we are told and shown by the Elders one of the first agreements that we had was with the animals that we rely on in order to coexist. To neutralize our passing on those lands we make offerings to the land so that those animals will continue to sustain us in the environment to which we are accustomed.
We rely on these principles to make our case for environmental assessments. We have the responsibility to protect the environment and to ensure that the animals are protected to sustain their continuance. It is those principles that we use in a modern world and in modern management.
With regard to large scale development activity in the North, we have three diamond mines, two of which are operational and a third is in the construction stage. We have met the challenges that go along with that development in the environmental assessments that were carried out. We rely on these principles and we do not consider them a threat to development but, rather, a complement to how the environment should be managed in a sustainable way.
During that process, we developed a good working relationship with diamond mines such as BHP Billiton, Diavik Diamond Mines and DeBeers. We have such a good working relationship that the management of those three diamond mines who have given the Tlicho a letter of support to present to parliamentarians respecting the passage of Bill C-14. That gives us comfort.
We have managed to negotiate the Tlicho agreement, which has taken more than 12 years thus far, and we have done it within the framework of Canada's laws. This agreement has not been the only one that we have worked on over the last 12 years. The same negotiating team, along with some community members, as we need them for their expertise, has managed to negotiate, with the three diamond mines, impact and benefit agreements. Some of those are called ``protection and benefit agreements.'' As well, we have negotiated environmental and socio-economic agreements with each of the mining companies.
Aside from the Tlicho agreement, we have been involved in negotiating nine agreements with the diamond mines. It has taken much shuffling of schedules to ensure that things were done in a proper way. At the same time, sitting down with industry and interest groups has given us some insight into their sensitivities and provided us with experiences that we have managed to apply to the Tlicho negotiations to provide certainty and comfort to development in the North and to ensure certain comfort levels for all.
Another agreement that we talked about in our oral history documents relates to the land and place names. We reached that agreement with our Aboriginal neighbours who live among us. This peace treaty is to ensure that there is respect for one another. It is these same principles that we have drawn upon to negotiate two overlapping agreements, over and above the Tlicho agreement. It gave us comfort and knowledge to apply to the Tlicho agreement sections 2.7.1, 2.7.2 and 2.7.3 that ensure that the ongoing rights of our neighbouring Aboriginal peoples will not be affected and that their existing rights would be retained.
Our history also lies in the fur trade period, when the Tlicho people acted collectively to define our unity as a people to meet the economic potential that challenged us during that era.
Using those same principles in the negotiations of the Tlicho agreement, we managed to negotiate a hydro agreement with the NWT Power Corporation, a Crown corporation of the Northwest Territories Government. In that agreement the Tlicho people financed and built a 4.3-megawatt hydro dam on one of the rivers within our lands. This plugged into a grid line from Yellowknife, the capital of the Northwest Territories.
We have also gained experience in developing partnerships and relationships with Canada's leading businesses and corporations, to our mutual benefit, because we want to ensure that all the partners have equal benefit. This has allowed us to develop our human resources to make sure that training and jobs are available for our people so that we can participate in economic development in a meaningful way. In addition, we have gained the confidence necessary to negotiate the Tlicho agreement. The experiences and confidence gained have raised our level of tolerance, if you will.
Our place names tell us of an agreement or treaty that was signed with the Government of Canada in 1921. Treaty 11 was signed off by our representative. Our Elders talk about our representation at the Treaty 11 negotiations as being ones where the Tlicho were represented as an equal partner. This gave us a real argument and understanding to make sure that the self-government component was included in the land claim agreement, so that the relationship could strengthen and continue.
The Tlicho negotiators who began the process are still in place. There have been no changes to our negotiating team. The original negotiators will be here until the agreement is ratified and, hopefully, beyond.
We know that the negotiating team for the GNWT retired after the agreement was signed off. However, it is noteworthy that the negotiating teams for Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories were dedicated to their principles. They negotiated in good faith and they have done a remarkable job to ensure that their principles, their policies, and their sense of fairness were all played out at this table.
One reason for that was that we gave equal respect to the views of all the parties, and we tried to find solutions rather than take adversarial positions in trying to hammer out the agreement. It was more a matter of how we could find a solution to overlapping working relationships and jurisdictions to ensure that there was clarity in how things would be done.
That experience gave us a lot of confidence to go beyond cooperative negotiations. It actually spilled over into ensuring that the consultations of the people of the North were done in a most respectful way.
I have some of our team members up here with me. The Tlicho agreement is the only agreement that was initialled twice in Canada. It has never been done before. Normally, you initial a final agreement for the purposes of ratification. In this case, we initialled the first time for the purposes of opening it up for public consultation. This gave us a real insight into the constructive comments that were made and we used that opportunity to clarify some of the grey areas that people thought required clarification. If anything, it has improved the understanding of the agreement.
The second initialling was done in early 2003, and that opened the way for ratification. We were the first to ratify the agreement in June 2003 with over 90 per cent of those who voted in favour of it.
The Government of the Northwest Territories also ratified the agreement through their legislative process with unanimous consent. Canada is now in the process of ratification. We are now at the doorstep of Royal Assent. We are very close to the welcome mat, if we are not already stepping on it.
As Chief Charlie Nitsiza was saying, this has given us great pleasure. It has been a long process. The former Prime Minister of Canada, Jean Chrétien, made the effort to come to Behchokò to sign the final agreement, a commitment he made in the North when he was the Minister of Indian Affairs way back in the 1960s. Therefore, it was a real pleasure for many of our Elders, who met him at the time, to welcome him back and meet an old friend.
While negotiating the Tlicho agreement, there were a lot of factors on the side. We also found a real need to make sure that preparations for future generations were being made and massaged along the way, because, although we live in a modern world, it does not mean that we must forget who we are with our language and culture and not keep those things intact. We want to keep it that way.
We have in the last six years invested over half a million dollars a year of our own money into scholarships. This was increased to $600,000 last summer. It has created a post-secondary program where our high school students are helped in their last years in high school to prepare for post-secondary education. It has also created a database on which courses students may take, what housing is available, and all of the information that goes with that. It is a support program with a full-time coordinator in the high school who has all of the phone numbers of the post-secondary students, and they can call in at any time. There is a toll free, 1-800 number as well as a fax line, so that they are always in contact, should the need arise.
Just preparing the youth in education is fine, but at the same time we have to stick to the principles of our Elders, like Jimmy Bruneau, who talked about making sure that our language and culture is equally maintained. Since 1995, we have been doing what we call on-the-land canoe programs, where our youth are taken out onto the lake for 10 days or more, paddling, hunting and fishing along the way. They visit all the hunting, camping and grave sites along the way so that they understand their history better and are able to read those place names that I described. As the Elder would say, ``You turn the pages every time you dip your paddle.'' It has grown to such a point where, last summer, we had over 160 people in the canoes for up to two weeks.
The Tlicho agreement was put together by negotiating teams from the three parties. The dedication, support and encouragement of people like the members that are present and listening to us today, is a strength that we draw from to make sure that we do it in a way where there is some light at the end of the tunnel. To us, it is quite an accomplishment to be sitting here today making a presentation.
Bill C-14 gives recognition to the things that we inherited as Tlicho people from our ancestors, and our ability to pass on those rights to future generations. As I was saying earlier, the Tlicho agreement is a living extension of our history of concluding agreements and meeting challenges as we encounter them.
With that, I would thank the committee for having listened to us. We are prepared to take any questions that you might have.
The Chairman: I thank Chief Charlie Nitsiza and Mr. John Zoe for their remarks. I will open the floor for questioning.
Senator St. Germain: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would welcome the Elders from the Tlicho as well as you, the presenters, and all the visitors that we have here. This is one of the largest delegations that I have seen, Grand Chief, and I think it is important that these representatives be here, not only for their education, but also for ours as senators and for the country as a whole.
As you know, this meeting is being televised so that, after the excellent presentation that both you gentlemen have made this morning, the public may have a better understanding of what our Aboriginal peoples are trying to accomplish.
At second reading debate of the bill in the Senate, I raised five concerns. The first was that the agreement failed to achieve final settlement and lacked the necessary certainty because it can be amended. I believe we have gone through that.
I had the opportunity of meeting with various delegations of the Tlicho and many of these questions have been answered. However, I wanted to put them on the record in the committee. That first one was a concern. The second issue related to the nation's sovereign authority to act in international matters being diminished. That question has also been answered and clarified.
The third question dealt with the perception that a third order of government would be created. That is always an argument in these self-government bills. You described your government as being more of a municipal level of government. You may correct me on that.
The fourth issue dealt with the Charter of Rights. It was suggested that the rights of individuals would be infringed because of both officials languages being part of the agreement.
The question I pursued had to do with whether the Metis had been properly consulted.
Another issue is the question of matrimonial and family law. Will native women and non-native women who have native husbands have the same protection as they would under provincial governing laws? Perhaps you can clarify that issue. It is a question that I have been asked to put to you by a group in British Columbia, my home province. I think it is only fair that we ask you that question.
I will as a couple more questions on the Metis situation.
Mr. Richard B. Salter, Legal Counsel, Dogrib Treaty 11 Council: Mr. Chairman, I will deal with the question on matrimonial and family law which was put by the senator from British Columbia, which is also where I am from. Territorial family law will apply to the Tlicho who are resident in the Tlicho communities. They are subject to all territorial laws involving family law and matrimonial matters. There are no reserves in this context and therefore the Indian Act does not apply now nor will it apply in the future. Those matters will be dealt with under territorial law which applies to every woman in the territory.
Senator St. Germain: On the question of Metis rights under section 35, my understanding is that there was a submission that full consultation with the Metis in this area, who have been part of the community, had not occurred during the negotiations. I have had discussions with you privately in regards to this, seeking clarification on this, and ensuring that our Metis people are properly represented. I understand that approximately 300 to 400 Metis people reside in the Tlicho area under discussion.
As the chief negotiator, Mr. Zoe, do you feel that the Metis were fully consulted during the negotiations, and that the majority of the Metis were onside and given the opportunities that are deserving of them in this situation?
Mr. Zoe: When I was talking earlier about the six-month consultation following the first initialling, that was to give greater comfort to the Metis groups and the other Aboriginal groups in the area.
It does not mean that that was the only consultation. There was preconsultation before that, but this gave us a greater understanding to describe in the agreement the definition of a Tlicho citizen. It is not exclusive, it is more inclusive. There is an onus on an individual to apply if he or she wants to be a Tlicho citizen.
At the same time, the agreement does not infringe on the rights of those who consider themselves to be living in the area. They have continual rights and this agreement is only to describe the rights of the Tlicho and not to define the rights of the neighbouring First Nations or Aboriginal groups that might be in the area. We ended up in court and the judge ruled that those rights were unaffected.
Senator St. Germain: You ended up in court with whom?
Mr. Zoe: The Metis group that we are talking about believed that the Tlicho agreement would have an effect on their rights and, therefore, they applied for an injunction. In that process, the final ruling was that the Tlicho agreement did not affect the rights of the Metis.
That is one thing that has happened in the last 12 years.
Senator St. Germain: It has been a long time, and you have lost some of your original negotiators. They cannot be here with us.
I would like to deal with education. I have been in Ottawa for over 20 years dealing with similar issues. My observation is that the only true way that our Aboriginal peoples will find their rightful place in society is through education. This was raised in Chief Charlie James Nitsiza's presentation who clearly stated that your Elders and chiefs of the past wanted to speak in both languages so they would have the strength.
During the course of discussions with various people from your nation we have agreed on the fact that education in remote areas is a challenge. How will you deal with that? I understand you have an excellent school in Edzo where you run your scholarship programs and students are graduating from high schools and they are moving on to post- secondary education.
The concern expressed was that teaching staff come to the remote areas for the experience and then they leave. There is no continuity and the quality of teaching in some of these areas is not as good as it could be. It inhibits the ability of the local children to excel in the way that they should.
Are there plants to deal with this problem? Apparently housing is also an issue. Because the costs are so exorbitant, teachers are discouraged from moving to these remote areas. I understand that you have three remote communities on Tlicho land. My question is straight and honest because my pet peeve is the lack of focus on education for Aboriginal peoples to raise the level to a higher standard. Apparently it will take 27 years for them to catch up to students in the rest of Canada.
Mr. Zoe: Senator, it is also a pet peeve of mine, and I have been involved in this for a number of years. We know from earlier years that there was little control over education. We come from the federal day schools and the federal government provided housing for teachers in that system. Those ready-made houses were exclusively for the teachers. When responsibility for education was transferred to the territorial government, the responsibility for some of the housing for teachers was also transferred.
The North is developing to such a point that free market housing has been encouraged. Many of these units were disposed of, and that created a vacuum of available housing for new teachers coming in. It is reaching the point where the responsibility for education is being devolved to the local regional level whereby the hiring of teachers is done by the local community education councils. In some cases, housing is provided by the local community corporations. Eventually, we might reach a comfort level stage, but we are not there yet.
We did not participate in the process of converting from federal to territorial housing, but we know we can participate when the responsibility is devolved from the territorial level to the regional level. We did not have the experience to handle that or to develop principles based on traditional methods. We had an opportunity to draw from experiences of the Navaho in Arizona, where we have close links. A number of Tlicho went to Arizona to look at how their boards are set up. Those models were brought to the Behchokò area and, in the early years, the school boards were based on that model.
We also attended the World Conference on Aboriginal Education in New Zealand in 1990. Another conference will be held this summer. There we discussed something that captures the essence of what we are talking about — the challenge of retaining your language and heritage in the modern education system. One thing that we adopted into our mission statement for the Tlicho schools is a saying that we adopted from the Maori in New Zealand. They say that you do not put your culture into education but you put education into your culture. In that way, tradition, culture and language are retained. We would absorb that. These solutions are developing. We are constantly on the watch for remedies to some of the experiences and problems encountered by previous governments. We are constantly aware that these can be developed locally.
The Chairman: Do you consider your schools and teachers to be providing your students with a good education?
Mr. Zoe: Currently our working relationship with the teachers is very good. Any newly recruited teacher who comes into the Tlicho area, as well as some of the veterans, are taken out at the beginning of the school year to spend a week with the Elders and the students that they will be teaching. Some will spend a week in the barren lands hunting caribou and generally living off the land to get used to one another because they will have to work together for the year.
Senator St. Germain: Do you think that the students graduating from your high school in Edzo are competitive and qualified to enter most universities? Do they have the qualifications on the same percentage basis as students from a high school in southern Canada?
Mr. Zoe: Education was devolved to the regional level. Prior to that devolution, we produced only an average of two high school students per year. Since it has devolved to the regional level, we can expect more that 30 graduates per year, if not more. We have over 100 students in post-secondary education. The number is probably the highest of the schools in the Northwest Territories for an Aboriginal group.
Senator Christensen: I welcome the elders and youth who are here today. The young people will carry this agreement forward and make it a reality. Your being here gives that commitment and the ownership of seeing that that happens. When you are Elders, you will look back at the process and see it as a new beginning and as a new opportunity.
In the Yukon, the ratification process is different for each of our bands. You mentioned that in June you had a 92 per cent favourable vote of the 93 per cent of voters who voted. Could you explain the voting requirement and process for the ratification process?
Mr. Zoe: The underlying principle is such that if you did not vote, it was considered a no vote. People were encouraged to vote, and the turnout was high.
Senator Christensen: Do you know offhand how many were eligible to vote?
Mr. Zoe: I believe that Mr. Erasmus might know the number that were eligible to vote, the number that voted and the number that voted in favour.
Mr. Eddie Erasmus, Negotiator, Dogrib Treaty 11 Council: Of the people eligible, 93 per cent voted and of those, 92 per cent voted in favour of the agreement.
Senator Christensen: That is very good indeed.
My other question is on Bill C-14 and the role of the Crown. Previous legislation that has been ratified on land claims in the Northwest Territories specified that the agreement was binding on the Crown. Neither the Nisga'a agreement nor Bill C-14 contains that provision, although the first version, Bill C-31, did contain the provision. Why was that dropped in Bill C-14?
Mr. Salter: That is an excellent question. We asked the same question when the change was proposed by the government. We reached a collective decision after discussion with members of the Department of Justice that the agreement binds the Crown. We have no doubt about that. Bill C-14 provides the Tlicho agreement with the force of law and that gave us all the comfort we needed — ensuring that the Crown was bound. Therefore, there was no need to put that clause in this bill because other changes were made. It was not the only change to the draft bill.
Senator Christensen: Perhaps I should touch on the consultation process. Certain groups will say that there was not full consultation on the process and yet we have heard from you that there were two initiallings of the agreement. It was initialled and then there was an extensive consultation process. Did the process after the initialling of the draft include persons of non-Aboriginal backgrounds as well as other First Nations in the area? Was that six months?
Mr. Zoe: After the first initialling, in preparation for the consultation, public notices were put into territorial newspapers inviting those who wished to be consulted on an individual or private basis. There were consultations with various interest groups, such as the chamber of mines, the chamber of commerce, the municipalities, outfitters and other interest groups in the area.
We had consultations with First Nations and with departments of the Government of the Northwest Territories. We opened the process to individuals in a public forum. We rented a large hall with the other two parties and all the team members were present. We had facilities for anyone to make a presentation or to ask questions. The meeting was recorded, transcribed and made available to the public. There was quite a stack of papers at the end of the six-month period.
Senator Christensen: Were there changes after the six-month period?
Mr. Zoe: There were improvements on clarity and on citizenship for the Tlicho.
Senator Léger: I have witnessed many individual Aboriginal role models here and this is the first time that I am meeting a whole community role model. The fact that so many of you travelled such a great distance speaks louder than words for me. The words are important but your presence here is almost sacred.
I saw a vision in what I have heard and you have a vision that comes from your roots. You have strategies, passion and a great deal of courage to continue to take one step at a time. I believe that, based on your historical vision of life, your negotiations were dedicated on principles, which I find are lacking in many cases. I was stunned when you spoke to the agreements with the animals. It demonstrates how true and deep your presence here is.
This is a wonderful piece of work, especially the part about ordinary citizens being able to feel, touch and understand the process and the agreement. Congratulations on such lovely work.
Senator Watt: This meeting today is taking place in the room of the Aboriginal senators and Aboriginal people.
I have been in your shoes before in dealing with modern treaty agreements, and I know it is not easy. The process takes time. I will not put many questions to you, because I know what you are going through. You are probably living through the same kind of arrangement that I lived through for the last number of years before I became a senator. As you, I was an activist and negotiator for the Inuit of the Eastern Arctic in Nunavik. I could say that we were the first ones who came up with a modern treaty agreement, back in 1975.
Leading up to 1975, I remember the number of things that I had to go through, along with my people, including the times that I appeared before committees like this one. I was not encouraged by some of the questions that were asked of me, so I will not do that to you. You will have to live with the agreement, implement it, and answer to your people. No one else has to do that.
I congratulate you for the hard work that you have put in and the success that has come out of it. I know that you are not happy with everything that you have received to date. We are never completely satisfied, but time goes on. There will be a time to make changes, perhaps in the year ahead, to the things that you did not get today. You can continue to tackle those matters in the years to come. That is how we dealt with it.
I congratulate all of your people here with us today. I had to do that at one time, knowing that there was a slight problem ahead in appearing before the committees. However, it is necessary to show your people that you are serious. You have done that. You have illustrated to the committee that you mean business, you are serious, and you are planning to implement this agreement.
I have one question. The House of Commons has already passed this legislation. Now, it has to be passed by the Senate. After that, will the territorial government, which can enact statutes under the jurisdiction that has been delegated to them by the federal government, pass legislation to enact certain parts of this agreement?
How will the territorial government, in the years ahead, help to you implement the provisions of this agreement, recognizing, of course, that the Government of Canada will have certain obligations under this proposed legislation? Will that create a problem? You will run into that in the future. As you know, only two levels of governments are recognized in this country. You are not creating a third level of government. You and I know what that means.
Does the territorial government have to pass a bill that will give effect to this agreement, or will that be done by so- called umbrella legislation by the federal government?
Mr. Salter: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zoe has asked me to answer that question. The agreement is structured in such a way that the territorial government is required to pass legislation giving effect to the agreement, and declaring it having the force of law. They have done that. That was passed by their legislature. The agreement also requires them to pass two other bills. One is to give effect to what we call Chapter 8, ``Establishment of Tlicho Community Governments.'' That bill has been introduced in the House, it has gone through the procedure, and it has been enacted by the legislature of the Northwest Territories.
They are required to enact one other law. That was mentioned when Premier Handley was here. It would be an act to give effect to what we have put in our separate agreement called the Intergovernmental Services Agreement, to establish a new agency that will succeed the existing agency that handles the health, social services and education within the Tlicho communities. I am only stating what the premier said, which was that that bill has been through the consultation process, the committee process, is being introduced into the Northwest Territories legislature this month and he expects its speedy passage.
Your experience, of course, tells you that it is the federal legislation that gives birth to all of these different bills because, when the federal legislation is declared effective, that automatically declares effective the territorial legislation. Our confidence comes from the fact that we negotiated a three-party implementation plan that all three parties have signed and are obligated to carry out, including all of the financial elements that are required.
With all respect, Mr. Chairman, to the experience in this Senate, it was the experience of the earlier claims, particularly in James Bay, Nunavik, that led us to follow this path in an effort to avoid some of the problems that had been experienced before.
We are also cognizant of what the Auditor General has said concerning implementation. We are confident that we have set up a structure that allows for that.
In effect, this agreement is a land claim and self-government agreement combined, and this is the first time that the Government of the Northwest Territories has signed on as a party to such an agreement. In the previous land claims respecting the Gwich'in, the Sahtu and the Inuvialuit, the Government of the Northwest Territories was there as part of the federal team observers. I always thought that was a colonial approach. This is the first time that they have signed as a party to an agreement. They are not just dragging on the coattails of the federal government and we would encourage the Parliament of Canada to let them continue in that role. They are full parties, equal to the federal government and to the Tlicho, and they have to act that part.
Senator Watt: I agree with what has been said by legal counsel. This is a one-of-a-kind agreement that is supported by the territorial government. As a committee we should try to expedite the bill by reporting it back to the Senate chamber and pass it as quickly as possible, so that people can go home with clear minds and begin implementing the provisions of this agreement.
Senator St. Germain: My question refers to the Indian Act. I have two pet peeves in my life, the lack of proper education for Aboriginal peoples and the paternalistic position that the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has always taken towards our Aboriginal peoples. What portion of your lives will be governed by the Indian Act, if any, after this agreement is passed?
Mr. Zoe: The Indian Act will no longer apply.
Senator St. Germain: In any way, shape or form?
Mr. Zoe: Except what describes what an Indian is, because there are rights attached to that. Generally, the rest of the Indian Act would cease to apply.
Senator St. Germain: That is it in a nutshell. I, like Senator Watt, have sat here and listened to many delegations. Hopefully, implementation will not be an obstacle in your course, because the federal government — and I am not being partisan in that I am referring to both Conservative and Liberal governments — has entered into agreements and implementation has been a real challenge. Hopefully that will not happen in this case.
I would like to thank all of you for coming and for your excellent presentation. I would also think you for briefing us privately and for the efforts that all of your people, especially your young people, have made. I am thinking specifically of those young people who will replace you and will be appearing before senators much younger than myself, I hope, in the future. God bless you all. Thank you.
The Chairman: This is the last time we will be seeing the Tlicho delegation, so I want to commend you for the work that has been put into this agreement. In the Northwest Territories we have a long history of development, and the Tlicho agreement, in part, is a culmination of the progress that peoples in the North have made on every aspect — government, economics, politics and culture.
It was only in the mid 1960s that the territorial government of the Northwest Territories was formed. Eventually, the territorial council was set up and many people such as James Washee, myself and others, were elected to the territorial council and Legislative Assembly. A great deal of progress has been made.
I think it is quite remarkable that a person such as myself has become a senator.
With the hard work of the chiefs and many people in the small communities, you have now gone one step further towards establishing your own government. It is remarkable. I just commend all of you.
We will be holding another meeting tomorrow evening at 6:15 p.m. We will be hearing from the Assembly of First Nations, AFN. Billy Erasmus, a former President of the Dene Nation in the North, will be making a presentation.
We will also hear from the Metis representatives. I am cognizant that many Metis people who have been part of the ratification process have signed up, but a few do feel that they have been left on the outside. We will hear from them.
If senators then agree that our meetings have been conclusive, then at the end of hearing tomorrow evening, we will proceed to clause-by-clause consideration with a view to reporting the bill. We may then have third reading sometime next week. That is the planned agenda. I would welcome all of you again tomorrow evening to our committee meeting. I hope you have a good time here in Ottawa.
I would mention in closing that our Senate committee is undertaking a study of why some Aboriginal peoples succeed in business and others struggle. We want to consider the elements that make Aboriginal people succeed. We will be travelling to Yellowknife to meet with some of your representatives and to hear about your engagement, your involvement, and your partnership in business in the North. We look forward to seeing some of you again in the North. Of course, we cannot go to the North and not see a diamond mine. We will be doing that, too.
The committee adjourned.