Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 9 - Evidence - Meeting of June 8, 2005
OTTAWA, Wednesday, June 8, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:19 p.m. to examine and report on the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada.
Senator Nick G. Sibbeston (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I call the meeting to order. This evening the committee will continue its examination of the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development in Canada. Throughout the study, the committee has heard testimony from academics and government officials. In the future, we will travel to various regions of Canada to hear from additional witnesses.
I welcome tonight's witnesses from Natural Resources Canada, Mr. Jim Farrell and Mr. Brian Wilson. Mr. Farrell, please proceed.
Mr. Jim Farrell, Director General, Policy, Economics and Industry Branch, Canadian Forest Service, Natural Resources Canada: Thank you for inviting us to appear before the committee. I would like to provide senators with an overview of some of the forest sector issues relevant to Aboriginal people in Canada. Mr. Wilson will speak to some of the department's ongoing programs.
First, I would like to tell senators about Natural Resources Canada to provide some context. Primarily, the department is comprised of four economic sectors: energy; minerals and metals; earth sciences, which includes mapping, geodetics and the Geological Survey of Canada; and the Canadian Forest Service. Natural Resources Canada has been under numerous government departments over the last 102 years, but we are currently enjoying our relationship with the rest of the natural resources sectors.
We are primarily a science-based organization with five regional research facilities in Victoria, Edmonton, Sault Ste. Marie, Quebec City and Fredericton. The organization is, therefore, decentralized, which is good from a program delivery perspective. Natural Resources Canada has approximately 1,000 staff, 80 per cent of whom are located outside Ottawa.
The mandate of the CFS is to promote the sustainable development of Canada's forests and the competitiveness of the Canadian forest sector. I will speak to Aboriginal participation in the economic dimensions of that sector. As well, I will develop a profile of Aboriginal involvement in Canadian forestry and underline some of the key factors that, in our view, affect Aboriginal participation in the Canadian forest sector. Mr. Wilson and I will also provide information on a couple of the CFA programs.
The agency's estimation of forested area owned or controlled by Aboriginal people on and off reserve is approximately 6 million hectares and growing. Essentially, it is equivalent to the size of forestland in New Brunswick. Forestry and related forestry services are important economic activities, providing a source of earned income for many First Nation communities. Aboriginal participation in the forest sector is higher on average than in the rest of the manufacturing sectors across Canada. The industry average across Canada is 2.1 per cent and the forest sector average is about 4.2 per cent. It is a bit higher in the forestry and logging sectors, which tends to be harvesting, tree planting, firefighting and silviculture work. In the lumber and panel industry the average is about 4.2 per cent. The average is lowest in the pulp and paper industry, which could be an issue around capacity, in my view. As well, the pulp and paper industry has shed numerous jobs over the last 15-20 years. It is replacing labour with technology in order to remain competitive. Forest licences held by Aboriginal individuals or communities total about 7 million cubic metres, or about 4.1 per cent of the national total. A 2002 analysis prepared by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada regarding on-reserve business activity, encompassing 60 per cent of First Nations across Canada, identified approximately 1,500 businesses related to forestry, employing some 17,000 people.
One of the factors that can help Aboriginal participation in the forest sector relates to demographics. The Aboriginal community represents a young and available labour force. The number of working-age Aboriginal people increased by 25 per cent between 1996 and 2001, compared to a 4 per cent increase for the non-Aboriginal population. In the forest industry, that is an important fact, primarily because the industry in general, not only pulp and paper, has been replacing labour with technology. As a result, the demographic profile for the remaining labour force is older, on average. Accordingly to some of my industry colleagues, there will be a labour crunch in the forest products industry over the next 10 years.
Another factor is a growing land base available to First Nations peoples, and sharing the benefits through direct land management are more common. As the process of land claim resolution goes forward, we see more requirements in provincial legislation for Aboriginal participation. A phenomenon has developed in the marketplace in respect of certification of forest management: the requirement of participation by Aboriginal peoples, not only in Canada but also around the world. As well, over the last five to seven years, we have seen ever stronger relationships growing with a number of the leading companies in Canada.
At the same time, some factors hinder the participation of First Nation and Metis communities in the forest sector. One is a lack of capacity. Currently, many Aboriginal individuals and communities do not have the necessary workforce skills, forest management knowledge and business development expertise to enhance their sector participation. Employment remains disproportionately confined to lower-paid positions in harvesting and silvaculture.
Another barrier is the lack of financial resources. The days of simply buying a chainsaw and going into business are long gone. There is a substantial capital investment threshold, even in the more traditional areas of harvesting, which makes that entry difficult. Without adequate capital, communities and individuals are unable to become involved in larger projects or joint ventures. As well, there is the ongoing challenge of lack of access to forest resources. Without clear access to commercial forest areas through appropriate infrastructure or arrangements, businesses are not inclined to participate in forest resource development and it is difficult to attract investment and capital.
This is our perspective of the potential opportunities and positive dimensions relevant to Aboriginal involvement in the forest sector, as well as some of the challenges that remain to be addressed. I would ask Mr. Wilson to talk specifically about some programs of the Canadian Forest Service in respect of Aboriginal communities.
Mr. Brian Wilson, Director, Programs Division, Science and Programs Branch, Canadian Forest Service, Natural Resources Canada: The Canadian Forest Service plays a major role in Aboriginal capacity-building to facilitate their participation in the forest sector. It manages a total annual Aboriginal spending envelope of approximately $7 million, of which $3.25 million is partnership funding from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada in the First Nation Forestry Program.
This joint-initiative program has been ongoing since 1992. I have some reports for the committee and its research group in respect of various aspects of the First Nation Forestry Program. There is the annual report to ministers and various studies undertaken through the FNFP. Most recently, two studies were undertaken with the Institute on Governance on best practices between industry and First Nations in Canada and in British Columbia. I will leave this material with the Clerk of the Committee.
I would point out that the FNFP is a partnership program involving industry and First Nations. The money in the First Nation Forestry Program levers $11 million from those partners. It is a kind of seed fund that enables the partners to move forward with projects in forestry and forestry management.
The Canadian Forest Service also sponsors some science and technology outreach activities in support of traditional land use research, non-timber forest product development and pine beetle remediation initiatives with First Nation communities in British Columbia. We also have the Model Forest Program, which has strong Aboriginal participation and various components. This research and demonstration program is aimed at encouraging innovation in forest management at the site level and involves the interests of local First Nation and Metis communities, environmental groups, industry and governments. It is a unique and interesting partnership program.
Within that program component, there is one model forest known as the Waswanapi Cree Model Forest. It specifically manages the Cree area of northern Quebec and the unique partnership includes industry, the provincial government, the federal government, academia, environmental groups, et cetera. I will leave a copy of a report on the Waswanipi Cree Model Forest with the Clerk of the Committee.
Another aspect of this model forest program is some of the outreach activity that individual model forests undertake. The Innu Labrador Outreach Project involves support and mentorship from the western Newfoundland model forest into the Innu community to provide them with some of the necessary tools to manage their lands in Labrador once the land claims settlement is complete. Similarly, the Aboriginal Strategic Initiative in the model forest program provides workshops and various initiatives aimed at including Aboriginal values in forest management in the broader industry, and at sharing innovations through various workshops and conferences between industry and Aboriginal groups.
For these programs, perhaps $7 million does not seem sufficient but it applies a tremendous amount of leverage to other participants and includes a large degree of non-budgetary support in terms of mentorship by the parties involved: the Canadian Forest Service, technical assistance and various others who participate in the network. It is a proven, on- the-ground delivery agent and facilitator for building First Nation forestry partnerships and a key enabler for Aboriginal participation in economic development. Since its inception, it has funded 1700 projects with a total value of $137 million, of which $39 million was contributed by FNFP. That has created opportunities for over 600 First Nations people to improve their skills and apply sustainable forest management practices. Through training initiatives, First Nations workers are gaining the technical skills that lead to employment in the forest sector. As well, they have opportunities for contracts in areas such as firefighting and silviculture work with the province. I would like to mention two examples: the Alberta First Nations have been accredited with Level 2 firefighting and now contract their services to the Province of Alberta; and the Nak'azdli First Nations in British Columbia received assistance to train band members and has since entered into a five-year joint-venture agreement with a logging company. Moreover, as a capacity-building program, the FNFP is assisting First Nations to apply for and receive offers of forest licence and land leases. For example, the former Conne River First Nation in Newfoundland and Labrador, Miawpukek Mi'kmaq is negotiating with the province for a long-term lease on 10,000 hectares of additional forest land to support a new sawmill.
Another successful example is linked to the role FNFP played in brokering the New Brunswick Aboriginal Forestry Initiative. This four-year regional skills training partnership will provide training and skills-upgrading for 500 aboriginal forestry workers in New Brunswick and will support Aboriginal business formation and permanent job placements with industry for up to 150 workers. Regional initiatives such as this one offer an approach that addresses the range of barriers limiting Aboriginal participation in the forest sector. Increasingly, the FNFP sees that regional skills initiatives off reserve are the primary way to create sustainable benefits and economic development. This partnership initiative in New Brunswick included industry, the province, the Aboriginal Skills and Employment Program funding from HRSDC, regional development agencies and academia. It truly is a broad partnership. The FNFP was the catalyst that brought people together and the enabler of the seed funding to bring it to fruition.
These programs are part of NRCAN's contribution to greater Aboriginal participation and benefit in the economy. We think these programs are doing a good job. They are on the ground and although they are not particularly visible and grand in size, they work well where the First Nations live. You can see many testimonies to that in the travels of the committee across Canada.
Forestry is an important economic activity for Aboriginal people and communities. The opportunities for employment, contracting and business development are becoming more abundant, and the forestry industry is willing to enter into various forms of partnership. However, the lack of technical, human and financial resources makes it difficult for Aboriginal people to participate fully in existing opportunities. The Canadian Forest Service is working with its partners to increase Aboriginal participation in the forest sector. We appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee today. We would be very happy to be of assistance any way we can.
Senator Peterson: I need some help. Aboriginal workers comprised only 4.2 per cent of all employed workers in the forestry sector. Is the percentage so low because the matrix for the forest sector so large?
Mr. Farrell: We would compare it to the statistic in manufacturing, generally. The percentage is certainly higher than it is in the oil and gas industry. Why it is so small remains an ongoing challenge. One reason might be that the industry is generally shedding jobs rather than creating more jobs. The loss of jobs has been about 50,000 in the forest products sector over the last five years. It remains a challenge. Some firms have individual targets for their own companies for increasing the level of Aboriginal participation in their workforces. The percentage is higher than in some other sectors but, at the same time, it probably should be higher.
Senator Peterson: Are there any strategic alliances with the First Nations and others to help them grow? You mentioned the lack of financial resources. How would financing be secured? If the financial institution were willing to lend the money, how would that loan be secured?
Mr. Farrell: Mr. Wilson used to work for Indian and Northern Affairs, so he knows the details better than I know them.
Mr. Wilson: There are many sources of capital. Some of it is developmental capital secured through Aboriginal capital corporations and community development corporations, which is higher-risk capital lending requiring lower collateral. There are also joint ventures and arrangements made with individual companies. For example, a First Nation might begin with 10 per cent interest based on their capacity to provide equity, which graduates over time to a 50 or 49 per cent equity position based on the revenue secured year after year by the profits of that joint venture. There are various models of accessing capital for investment.
Obviously, First Nations on reserve face challenges that other groups do not face. However, opportunities exist and lending portfolios are available. Some equity capital is available through Aboriginal Business Canada, ABC, depending on the criteria of the application. Some forms of capital are available. There is much research with ABC and the Aboriginal capital corporations on new kinds of flexible investment instruments for long-term debt.
Senator Léger: Do the lands belong to the Crown, to business or to the Aboriginals? Is there ownership?
Mr. Farrell: Currently, 97 per cent of forest lands in Canada are Crown lands, either federal or provincial. The vast majority is provincial Crown land. The commercial part of that forest is approximately 40 per cent of what we would define as ``forest.'' For the most part, arrangements have been made with firms in return for services and fees. Some rights are offered to firms to harvest a volume of timber in compliance with a certain set of rules that protect other values. Such an agreement is between individual firms and provincial governments.
The process of settlement of land claims has been ongoing for some time. Another claim to that land, in some respects, is the current allocation to companies for sourcing fibre. Many companies have proceeded with making their own arrangements with local communities in respect of access to the fibre. Until the land claim is settled, the Crown land remains in the jurisdiction of the province. In many cases, there are long-term arrangements between individual firms and the province for access to the fibre.
Senator Léger: When you use the word ``firm,'' do you mean business companies?
Mr. Farrell: That is right.
Senator Léger: You said that 97 per cent of forest lands belong to the Crown. Do you see evidence that the government is taking note of the increased Aboriginal participation and needs in the forest sector?
Mr. Farrell: I was in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, yesterday for an annual meeting of the deputy ministers of the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers. There was a round table item on Aboriginal issues relating to the forest sector in respect to provinces. I was struck with what I saw as a sincere effort to accommodate Aboriginal participation in their policy development and in their relationship with their firms in terms of access to resources, novel approaches and agreements, although I do not know many of the details. I have been attending these meetings for many years, and I was quite struck by the level of preoccupation with making a sincere effort to accommodate and work with the kinds of constraints these deputies face in developing their policy regime. It was treated as an important and significant issue.
Senator Léger: I like your term ``novel approaches.'' It is not only novel in the sense of technology and computers but also ideas. Do Aboriginals demonstrate initiative to go into business?
Mr. Farrell: I was in Saskatchewan from 1983-87. The Meadow Lake District Chiefs is a group on the west side of the province of Saskatchewan that developed a 20-year plan in the mid-1980s for the skills and capacities needed by their communities to achieve their goals within that timeframe. I saw a well-thought-out and well-considered business agenda to become more active in the forest economy in Saskatchewan. I left in 1987 just as they were getting. Today, there is a remarkable capacity in the ownership, converting plants, licences and other services associated with the forest sector. They have part ownership of a pulp mill and panel mill in Meadow Lake. They have accomplished their goals set out in that 20-year plan; and I suspect they are not finished moving forward. The forest sector is important for the strategy of their economic agenda, and they have done remarkably well in moving that agenda forward.
Senator Buchanan: In the Atlantic provinces, unlike the rest of the country less than 25 per cent of the forest lands are Crown-owned, and they do not have the same problems with the softwood lumber industry that the other provinces have. In Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, what business partnerships have been arranged between large companies such as Bowater Paper Company, Scott Paper and Avon River Paper Company, and the Mi'kmaq communities?
Mr. Wilson: Every province is different. The historic circumstances of Nova Scotia, with private wood-lot ownership and the way that wood supply has been allocated and sold, probably created some barriers to First Nation participation. If there is not a growing market, then there is a redistributing market such that if my dad had a job in the mill, then I would want that job in the mill. It is difficult to break in to that way of thinking and so First Nations in Nova Scotia are finding it difficult to get into the forest sector.
Through the model forest in Nova Scotia, we have the Nova Forest Alliance. The model forest stretches from Truro to the outskirts of Halifax, with its headquarters located in Stewiacke. An attempt to outreach to First Nations is made so that they might participate. For example, the Canadian Forest Service has been discussing some bio-energy projects with Shubenacadie. Certain connections to assist in eliminating this historic exclusion of First Nations are being developed. Tremendous investments have been made in Millbrook — a great transhipment point for Nova Scotia — so there is opportunity for First Nations to participate.
Confidence is growing, as demonstrated by Eskasoni, which is a growing concern in the area of forestry. It is a matter of building up the capacity so that both sides are confident that the joint venture being entered by industry and First Nations will be a winner. As that capacity grows, there will be better relationship building in Nova Scotia. However, at this stage, there is much room for improvement. There are opportunities for subcontracting but I am not totally familiar with the situation. I do know that much more can be done.
In our New Brunswick study, we noticed that no Aboriginal truckers were involved. As part of the New Brunswick Aboriginal Forestry Initiative, we have a target number of Aboriginal truckers to be involved in various subcontracting and silviculture work. It is a question of time to bring people together and to build the confidence and network that will make things happen. That is my general take on the situation in Nova Scotia. Although I am not familiar with individual companies, I do know that some have positive initiatives such as scholarships for Aboriginal students and summer employment programs. I am not familiar with their joint venture relationships.
Senator Buchanan: I am not familiar with them but I doubt that there are many joint ventures now or in the past. Why that is, I do not know. Some communities are more interested in becoming involved in industrial, manufacturing or real estate developments than in forestry. Many strides have been made in Millbrook, but not much is happening in Cape Breton or in the eastern Nova Scotia forest sector.
Mr. Wilson: Under the First Nations Forestry Program, we have about 170 projects across Canada. Eskasoni has some capacity-building initiatives under way. At the level of big business or joint ventures, Aboriginal Business Canada, ABC, or someone else would be better able to answer that question.
Senator Gustafson: Is most of the Aboriginal participation in the lighter forest areas, such as the boreal forests, rather than in the heavy timber forest areas of B.C., for example?
Mr. Farrell: I would not want to be quoted on statistics, but there are numerous examples of active co-management and Aboriginal business ventures. For example, a forest products company in coastal British Columbia was a joint venture between Weyerhaeuser and First Nations. Recently, Weyerhaeuser sold its share of the interest, which clearly underscored the fact that it was an ongoing, profitable venture with the capacity and wherewithal to continue prosperity. If I recall, a deputy minister in British Columbia mentioned yesterday that 45-50 management agreements with First Nations firms or communities have been signed over the last year and a half; and there are more in the works. They have withdrawn up to 20 per cent of 10-year licences on the coast that were committed to providing timber to a certain firm, and a fair percentage of that 20 per cent is available to Aboriginal and First Nation communities.
Activities in the Queen Charlotte Islands create a more direct influence, if not control, over forest resources in that part of British Columbia. This is occurring as we speak. the level of participation will continue to grow. Discussions around land claims no doubt continue to be difficult but we will work through them. I clearly sense a growing opportunity in British Columbia, and policy is supporting that trend.
Senator Gustafson: What kind of expansion could be expected in the industry?
Mr. Farrell: The current picture of the forest products industry in Canada is a bit checkered. Newsprint and the pulp industry are facing tough markets. I would say that the demand for newsprint in the North America market will continue to shrink. In the pulp industry, where newsprint is the main market, heavy investments have been made. To build a pulp mill today costs just under $1 billion.
In the lumber and panel industries, lumber continues to be quite strong in the North American market but we see the greatest growth in Canada in the panel industry, where new investments in forest products are being made. Over the last couple of weeks, two or three major investments were announced in British Columbia, some because if the mountain pine beetle and some because of the opportunities for that market growth.
Senator Gustafson: A company such as Daishowa-Marubeni International Ltd. would be difficult to compete with because their operation is mammoth.
Mr. Farrell: Yes, it is a big operation but their prosperity is owed to their dedicated market in Japan. All of their pulp is shipped to Japan pre-sold, unlike the rest of the pulp industry in Canada. Daishowa-Marubeni produces a mix of hardwood and softwood pulp. The biggest competition for hardwood pulp comes from Brazil and Chile, where they grow a tree in under 20 years, where the cost of labour is considerably less and where the environmental standards are lower in terms of technology and production. Their cost of production is considerably less than it is in Canada, although the scale of the operation is similar.
Senator Gustafson: That reopens the subject of reseeding, reforestation and expansion. Are Aboriginal people involved in that process?
Mr. Farrell: As Mr. Wilson mentioned, the highest percentage participation in the forest product sector tends to be in the areas of firefighting, harvesting and silviculture, which includes tree planting, thinning and site preparation. For the most part in Canada, firms take responsibility for silviculture to remain compliant with the conditions for harvesting.
Senator Peterson: Is the Canadian Forest Service a financial partner? Does it help with management or to prepare business plans? What role does it play?
Mr. Farrell: The First Nations Forestry Program is one of the few dedicated specifically to First Nations communities. Mr. Wilson, would we help to support the development of a business plan?
Mr. Wilson: Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I will distribute reports on the First Nations Forestry Program, as well as an interesting study on Aboriginal tenures in Canada and the growing trend towards Aboriginal-managed forest tenures, which we helped to finance in conjunction with the National Aboriginal Forestry Association. The program supports a wide range of activities that are determined by the provincial committees, which make decisions on project funding. The activities range from basic silviculture work for First Nation lands to preparing inventory and plans for on-reserve and business feasibility studies for First Nation businesses that wish to explore forest-based opportunities.
The Chairman: It was moved that the committee accept into evidence the report from Mr. Wilson. I thank both the witnesses for appearing before us to impart their information.
Next, we will hear from representatives of the First Nations Lands Advisory Board. Good evening. Chief Louie, please proceed.
Mr. Robert Louie, Chairman, Chief of the Westbank First Nation, First Nations Lands Advisory Board: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and senators. We are pleased to appear before the committee to give evidence on issues related to economic development, particularly as they relate to key factors for economic development success on First Nation reserve lands, and to discuss the various obstacles to achievement for economic development success.
On my right is Chief Bill Williams of the Squamish First Nation in British Columbia. On his right is Chief Barry Seymour of the Lheidli T'enneh First Nation in British Columbia. Also with us in the audience is Ms. Ruth Nahanee, Land Manager for the Squamish First Nation under the First Nations Land Management Act.
I would like to focus on the Framework Agreement on First Nations Land Management and the First Nations Land Management Initiative, with which several others and I have been involved for approximately 18 years. First, I will provide honourable senators with my background in this area. I have been Chairman of the Lands Advisory Board and Resource Centre for approximately 18 years and Chief of the Westbank First Nation for approximately 13 years. In the past, up to 25 per cent of all land transactions took place on our reserve lands as they apply to reserve lands in Canada. We deal with much development, many leases and permits, and various interests in reserve lands. As well, for eight years I have been a member of the board of directors of the Peace Hills Trust, which is the largest Aboriginal financial institution in Canada, providing financial opportunities to First Nations people in Canada. I am a former director of Aboriginal Business Canada, ABC; former general manager of the Westbank Indian Band Development Company Ltd. in the mid- to late-1970s; and I own several viable small businesses.
I have circulated a brief presentation to honourable senators that will be my focus today to provide an overview and an update on the Framework Agreement on First Nations Land Management, which I will refer to as the framework agreement. I would ask for the committee's support of the framework agreement process and its objectives. The framework agreement has translated into a great deal of success for First Nations communities in Canada that have passed their land codes and are exercising jurisdiction to manage their lands and resources.
The framework agreement enables First Nations in Canada to exercise their inherent right to manage their reserve lands and resources and to make timely business and administrative decisions. First Nations that are part of this process have the choice to opt out of the 32 land sections of the Indian Act and to establish regimes to manage reserve lands and resources by creating a land code, which is the law that would be put forth by the First Nation community to manage its lands and resources. The land code then has to be ratified by the members of the First Nation community. The framework agreement enables First Nations to develop and implement a community process for the creation and ratification of laws on the use, possession and occupancy of First Nation reserve lands.
The Framework Agreement First Nations Land Management was signed by the original 14 First Nations and Canada in 1996. In 1999, the First Nation Land Management Act, FNLMA, was passed. That ratified and brought into effect the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management executed by the 14 First Nations and Canada in 1996. In March 2003, cabinet approved the expansion of the First Nations Land Management Initiative to include an additional ``rolling 30'' First Nations to the land management initiative and to provide funding for the signatory First Nations and the additional First Nations who had become part of the land management initiative. In fiscal year 2006-07, the current five-year funding authority expires.
I will speak to the economic development currently underway with those participating in the framework agreement. The Ontario community of the Chippewas of Georgina Island have developed and negotiated 230 individual cottage leases and retained the lease revenue for community development. That is significant because when they passed their land codes, they were able to put in place many uncollected lease revenues and collect the revenues generated by those cottage leases. Had they not been participants in the framework agreement to implement their land management, they might still have a backlog of uncollected lease revenues.
The Ts'kw'aylaxw, sometimes referred to as Pavilion, First Nation in British Columbia recently negotiated and amended a mining lease for a limestone quarry and processing plant, including numerous employment contracts and additional community benefits while retaining lease revenue for the community. That is quite a significant achievement, and the Ts'kw'aylaxw are happy to talk about the success of the renegotiated mining lease that provides additional opportunities for their community.
With respect to my community of Westbank, I have a list of the kinds of developments in which we are currently involved. First, there is the Okanagan Lake Bridge Project that includes a new bridge and west approach interchanges. We are in the process of negotiating various contracts. Phase 1 for the west approach interchanges is estimated at $20 million, and there is potential for $100 million in construction projects from the British Columbia Ministry of Transportation and Highways over the next 10-15 years. In part, this has been made possible by the land code. We now have a land management authority over our lands and resources so the lands cannot be expropriated by government for these projects. That has afforded us the opportunity to negotiate a fair deal with the provincial government.
The second development is the ``power commercial centre,'' which represents big-box retail outlets. Negotiations are being finalized for approximately 50 acres of frontage reserve land adjoining the town of Westbank on Highway 97 south. That has the potential to translate into hundreds of millions of dollars in investment in land and buildings. We have signed some leases with various developers and are in the process of finalizing other arrangements with certain big-box retail outlets. Developers are approaching us because we have land management jurisdiction and we are able to deal with construction permits, leases and all the other issues relevant on First Nation reserve lands.
The third development is Grizzly Wood Products, a manufacturing business. Recently, we purchased a company called Canada Japan Woodworks Ltd. As an offshoot of that, we built a new operation plant of approximately 18,000 square feet. We focus on the manufacturing of hardwood flooring, siding, cottages and miscellaneous wood products. This enhanced wood forestry manufacturing business is wholly owned and operated by Westbank First Nation. Again, our land management jurisdiction gives us more freedom to deal with the various issues relevant to that business.
The fourth development has arisen because of testing on our lands for resources. The results show aggregate deposits on the Kelowna, or east, side of the Okanagan Lake and lands that we recently acquired for reserve status. We refer to the lands as the Gallagher Canyon Reserve Lands, also known as I.R. No. 11 and I.R. No. 12. We believe there are millions of cubic meters of aggregate deposit, and that there will be many spin-off benefits such as trucking, cement businesses, et cetera. Our land management jurisdiction has given us more freedom to deal with the City of Kelowna so that our trucks can gain appropriate access to and from those lands via municipal and regional roads.
With regard to the First Nation Land Management Act and the framework agreement, certainly we want to continue to work with Canada to promote other First Nations who may wish to participate in such a land management initiative. There are approximately 42 First Nations signatories to the framework agreement. At least more 60 First Nations across Canada have expressed an interest and are awaiting signatory status to the framework agreement. We wish to continue to develop partnerships with Canada to enhance First Nations economic development under the FAFNLM. We will renew the five-year Treasury Board funding authority beginning in fiscal year 2007-08.
One of the main obstacles to economic development on First Nation lands, in my opinion, is the First Nations lack of jurisdictional capacity to manage their reserve lands and resources. Except for those who are involved in land codes with their own law-making process and with recognition as governments under this initiative, there is a lack of jurisdictional capacity under the Indian Act. That has created many problems. The lack of jurisdictional capacity for most First Nations in Canada translates into uncertainty about financial institutions, developers and professional advisors, such as lawyers, who might advise financial institutions. That uncertainty leads to obstacles and difficulties for the majority of First Nations in Canada developing their lands, especially security for financial institutions. We are working with Canada to develop a land registry regulations process. That has been slow and so we are encountering certain problems with financial institutions. In many cases, the priority of registrations is a problem. Security in providing loans is difficult for many of the financial institutions. We still have much work to do in that area to finalize the registration process.
It would be nice to complete the environmental management agreements with Canada because First Nations wish to exercise their environmental laws, which includes the leasing and development of lands. Canada has been slow in working with us to finalize the environmental management agreement. Another obstacle for both those involved in the land management initiative and those who are not involved is the lack of sufficient capacity-building dollars for First Nations. With regard to the land management initiative, there is lack of sufficient capacity dollars in both the developmental First Nations and the operational First Nations. We need greater funding to help First Nations develop the capacity to plan their land use and to manage their lands. Institutions must be available and open First Nations, and they need adequate knowledge to properly train economic development officers on reserve lands. They also need properly trained band administrators, land managers, informed council members and business people. Certainly, there is a lack of proper jurisdictional survey of reserve boundaries. That translates to uncertainty for developers and for financial officers. Having complete surveys, especially the external boundaries of reserve lands, would certainly be helpful. As we proceed through the First Nations Land Management Initiative, FNLMI, we are finding that many First Nations in Canada do not have proper surveys of the boundaries of their reserve lands. For example, when outstanding land title issues arise in respect of roads, access problems for developers and others can occur. These are only a few of the obstacles faced by First Nations in economic development across Canada.
Mr. Bill Williams, Chief of Squamish First Nation: Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss Aboriginal economic development. The Squamish Nation is a signatory to the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management. As soon as the Squamish Nation is able to conduct a community vote to assume control over the reserve lands and resources, a number of major economic opportunities are available, including those associated with the 2010 Olympic Winter Games.
Unfortunately, the Squamish Nation has been delayed in conducting a community vote to assume control over the reserve lands and resources because of the 100-year stewardship by Canada of our 24 reserves. Canada was obligated to provide a professional service that is reflective of its fiduciary and trust responsibility. However, the Squamish people are quickly learning that the stewardship has been a failure.
Environmental contamination is one of our concerns. All four of our Lower Mainland reserves have been identified as contaminated, and water and soil samples from 54 sites fail to meet government standards. The worst contamination is on lands where Canada issued a third-party lease for industrial use. Cleaning up these areas of Capilano, Mission, Kitsilano and Seymour reserves will be costly to the federal government. Our reserves in the Squamish Valley and Howe Sound are also contaminated, some by mercury and hydrocarbons from industry adjacent to the reserve. Some of our lands have suffered erosion and, as mentioned earlier, surveys to determine the extent of the erosion are incomplete.
Some revenues from leases negotiated by Canada for the Squamish Nation are below market value. Many roads, dykes and other infrastructure located on our reserves were built without legal permission. These encroachments by third parties would never have been permitted if Canada, as our steward, had acted responsibly. Several section 35 grants and surveys by Canada are questionable and require further investigation.
The integrity of our reserve lands is in doubt. Canada must be held accountable for the way in which it has conducted its stewardship responsibility for the Squamish Nation. These lost opportunities have cost the Squamish Nation about $10 million in annual revenues over the last few years because of the delay in conducting the community vote to assume control over the reserve lands and resources. These potential revenue losses follow stalled projects and have been associated with economic development benefits lost because of the delays in the vote.
On the Seymour Creek Village reserve, there was to be a retail development of about 240,000 square feet. The projected revenues would have been $1.5 million annually through a joint-venture participation on a 30-acre destination shopping centre. The environmental challenges together with the complexities of the designation and multiple administrative requirements requiring disproportionate due diligence have proved to be costly for the Squamish Nation and our joint-venture partners.
The Squamish Valley fuels and Convenience Store on the Stawamus reserve would have seen benefits of about $500,000 per year had the designation process been relaxed in favour of our system under the land management code of administration and the granting of subleases to attract long-term tenancies.
At the Mosquito Creek Marina Mission reserve, the failure to design an appropriate system for property management to be embedded in the land code has resulted in the Squamish Nation being able to offer only short-term tenancies to recreational boaters in the Burrard Inlet. As a result, we have lost the competitive advantage to other marinas in the area. We estimate this loss to be about $300,000 annually. Currently, the marina has revenues of about $1.7 million.
There is a signage opportunity on the Capilano, Seymour, Mission and Kitsilano reserves. The disproportionate degree of due diligence resulted in the Squamish Nation losing about 18 months of time to put the signage contract in place and the use of a $6.3-million contract. We have land use on the Kitsilano and Mission reserves but project due diligence has put on hold a driving range and an elder's care centre. Third parties do not wish to participate under an INAC-controlled system of land administration. The parties are awaiting the transition to a Squamish Nation- controlled land administration. As a result, we have lost the use of about $1 million in annual land lease profits from failing to pursue these initiatives. The total estimated loss of use of economic development benefits to the Squamish Nation is approximately $9.6 million.
All of the economic development opportunities have not been pursued because of delays faced by the Squamish Nation to implement a land code under the Framework Agreement on First Nations Land Management.
Mr. Barry Seymour, Chief of Lheidli T'enneh First Nation, First Nations Lands Advisory Board: Honourable senators, I thank you for this opportunity today. My colleagues have touched upon most of the issues that relate to the framework agreement. I would like to give you some information about me and some of the issues faced by Lheidli T'enneh. For 10 years I have been Chief of the Lheidli T'enneh, which means ``people from the confluence of two rivers.'' Those rivers are the Fraser and the Nechako in central British Columbia. I have participated in many economic development organizations, including community financial development corporations and the Prince George Aboriginal Business Development Centre. I have had significant involvement in the forestry sector over a number of years. I was involved with the friendship centre movement for 13 years at the local, provincial and national levels.
The Lheidli T'enneh First Nation was the fourth First Nation to accept a land code in Canada and the first in British Columbia. Currently, the Lheidli T'enneh is involved in the B.C. treaty-making process. We are at stage 5 in the negotiations of a final agreement, which has taken 13 years. One of the most challenging obstacles in the process is the limited mandates of the federal and provincial governments. Upon entering that process, our community was to become self-sustaining and not be a burden to others. The goal was to improve the standard of living in our community. Our region has a predominantly forest-based economy that is expanding because of the University of Northern British Columbia, which was established 10 years ago. The university has diversified the economy of the area. There are approximately 100,000 people in the Prince George area, with a catchment area of about 200,000. That has also expanded because more people come to Prince George for shopping now. It has become a central area.
I have had the opportunity to participate in several other organizations. Canada`s Model Forest Program was mentioned earlier and our community has participated in that for eight years. The program has provided us with the opportunity to work with other First Nations in Canada and indigenous groups around the world, such as the Nanais in eastern Russia with whom we set up a protocol for a cultural and economic exchange program.
One of the biggest challenges that we face is access to off-reserve resources. This evening we are focussed on on- reserve resources. Most often, many First Nations do not have that much opportunity to develop businesses. Ideally, all reserves would be similar to the Westbank communities. Like everything else in life and business, location truly provides the ability to be successful.
The previous witnesses spoke to First Nations' involvement in the forest sector. I can assure you from my experience, although silviculture is one of the higher employment initiatives for First Nations, it is most often a money loser and short-term in nature in respect of employment. In our area, the silviculture season is only four months long. The employment created is usually not successful from a financial perspective, but it does generate jobs for the short term.
The Squamish First Nation is involved with the forest sector and has worked with industry under secured tenures. It faced the usual challenges at the outset such as capitalization but found that one of the biggest challenges is acceptance in the industry. Initially, the Squamish First Nation was not accepted by the industry, the unions and the general community. First Nations people have had to work very hard over eight years to become successful. When we first got into the business, we were set up for failure. Fortunately we had very good partners who helped us to work through that; and we have become a successful company, of which there are many in British Columbia.
Senator Buchanan: I find this discussion very enlightening. Until tonight I was not even aware of the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management. There is no mention of framework agreements signed by First Nations in the Atlantic provinces, but perhaps I am mistaken. Two highly successful developments in Nova Scotia may be under a framework agreement that I am not aware of. Could you enlighten me, Mr. Louie? One is a power centre on the Millbrook Reserve, which is extraordinary, and the other is on a different 30 acres. I believe the power centre is much larger than that and encompasses an eight-cinema Empire Theatre, Ultramar Service Station, Tim Horton's, Burger King, Trading Post, a Convergy's call centre, a Leon's, two restaurants and a Super 8 Motel. At present, three other store developments are in progress under the direction of a successful individual, Chief Lawrence Paul.
The other business is the Membertou Development Corporation in Cape Breton, which is led by CEO Bernd Christmas. They have a successful convention centre, restaurant and are developing other businesses under the corporation. Are you familiar with these?
Mr. Louie: I am somewhat familiar with the First Nations that you mentioned. There are two First Nations signatories in New Brunswick: St. Mary's First Nation at Fredericton and the Kingsclear First Nation just outside Fredericton. It is my understanding that several of our resource centre staff have spoken with Millbrook First Nation, Membertou and some other First Nations in New Brunswick and in Nova Scotia. As well, we have had discussions with at least two First Nations in Prince Edward Island. The Atlantic provinces have expressed a desire to participate with us in land management, but only St. Mary's and Kingsclear are signatories. We are still awaiting the addition of other communities.
I am somewhat familiar with Millbrook First Nation, which is similar to my community of Westbank because we both have fairly extensive developments. We handle several thousand leases encompassing commercial and residential of all kinds. The shopping centre, at least four financial institutions, a golf course, various industrial developments and a marina have leases on our reserve lands. Currently, we are looking at the next phase of high-rise apartments. We have a marina development.
Westbank is a little different from many other communities because its focus is individual interests. Many First Nations that we deal with have band lands held in common. Development takes place in common and each of the members benefits equally in that share. In Westbank at least two of our reserves are located on the west side of Okanagan Lake, with a land area of 2,800 acres. Most such reserves have certificate of possession interest, and many community members lease their lands through their businesses. As well, the Westbank First Nation in general deals with the band lands — the lands in common. A great deal of entrepreneurialism has been demonstrated in Westbank and in other First Nation communities. Such entrepreneurial spirit is somewhat unique to many communities, in particular in easter Canada, that do not have that availability. In the future, we intend to add other signatories and a focus on the Maritimes is a consideration.
I should mention that Quebec is not involved yet because progress has been slowed by a bijuralism process. The Civil Code of Quebec needs to mesh with the First Nations Land Management Act and land code development. The Department of Justice Canada is working with us and with Quebec government officials to finalize the bijuralism review so that First Nations in Quebec can also participate. Certainly, there is interest in Quebec.
Senator Buchanan: I am quite familiar with the developments I mentioned in Membertou and Millbrook, which have proceeded, developed and been well underway without being signatories to the framework agreements.
Mr. Louie: Yes, that is correct. I have spoken with many in the communities across Canada. The demonstrated capacities of those communities with land codes and those looking at the land code jurisdictional development will far outweigh the development activities of those who do not have the jurisdictional authority to manage their own lands. Perhaps the communities of Membertou and Millbrook are the exception.
If a First Nation community in Canada has jurisdictional authority, then it clearly has the advantage. Communities without land management authority and recognition as a government with law-making powers that do not need the approval of the minister, DIAND or a government agency, have a far inferior opportunity for growth.
With firsthand knowledge of developers, investors, banking institutions, trust companies, et cetera, those kinds of investments on reserve will watch to ensure that communities properly exercise land management authorities; put clear, demonstrated laws in place; obtain the proper permits for the construction and installation of water lines, sewer lines and street lights; and abide all the associated regulations. When investors realize that a community has the capacity to make decisions at the community level in a more expeditious fashion, they will focus on that community. Without that, there will not be as much development for First Nations in Canada.
Senator Buchanan: I agree with your comments. The developments I mentioned have occurred mainly because of good leadership on the respective reserves. People such as Mr. Dan Paul; Mr. Lawrence Paul; and Mr. Bernd Christmas, who graduated from Dalhousie Law School. I do not think you would disagree, but Dalhousie is likely the finest law school in all of North America. Mr. Christmas developed a successful law career in Toronto, returned home and developed the Membertou Development Corporation with the Membertou Band community and various chiefs. With their hands-on leadership, they have been able to develop two outstanding First Nations areas in Canada.
Mr. Louie: I agree that are the exception and that the stability of First Nations governments is critical as well. Developers and investors look to the terms of the chiefs and councillors, at what the community has achieved over time, whether there is infighting and whether community decisions are made in a proactive and clear way. All of that is extremely important, and I agree with everything you have said in that regard. It is critical that First Nations have stability and confidence in their communities because that will attract development. However, once a First Nations community is recognized as a stable government, it must have the tools to ensure security in investments because it is critical to honour any and all deals entered into.
Equally as critical is having the expertise to achieve that position. Land management represents the bulk of a government's responsibility, particularly that of a First Nation. We need experts in the economic development of lands and resources. I am afraid that that is lacking in many communities in Canada because they have not had such opportunities in the past. Land codes and land management will provide the opportunity.
The next step is to provide continual capacity building for these communities. We must continue to improve and train. It is important to be informed of the latest legal developments and lease precedents in order to deal with such issues effectively. Even with the First Nations Land Management Initiative, Canada does not provide sufficient funding to adequately address this problem. That is the case with our initiative and it is even more of a problem for the majority of Canadian First Nations who have not yet had the opportunity to participate in land management.
Senator Watt: You said that more money is needed. Could you elaborate on that? Are you talking about funding for feasibility studies or for venture capital? Describe your relationship with the bank, Mr. Louie.
Mr. Louie: Monies are needed for both the developmental and operational phases. We refer to communities that are involved in land code development as developmental First Nations. Once they become signatories, they begin the development of their land codes, they begin negotiating their transfer agreements with Canada and they begin to prepare for the community vote. Once the community passes the land code, they take over the jurisdiction of their lands and resources.
The operational phase is the other side. Once the community passes its land code and begins to implement the land management process, there is a continuing need for funds for those operations. For both developmental and operational First Nations we have a contribution agreement with Canada that provides a certain amount of funding to allow for specified capacity development. To date, much of that capacity development has focussed on such things as land use planning, which is extremely important. There is a need to train the land managers in the development of leases and GIS mapping requirements. That expertise is critical.
There is a lack of funding for that. We should have a training institute that focuses on that capacity development. If there were such a training institute available to all First Nations, communities would understand the process and the future and have the tools to manage their lands and resources. That is one of the missing pieces of the puzzle.
Senator Watt: Have you developed a proposal on the shortcomings of the land management concept, including the shortage of funding for training?
Mr. Louie: We have been working First Nations Communities for several years in that area. We have received input from land managers, chiefs, council members, community members and advisors to the communities. We have put together a plan but it has not been accepted yet by the government. It requires more work and discussion. Support from this committee for a land management training institute would be of assistance.
Senator Watt: Perhaps you could provide us with a copy of your proposal when it is complete so that we might take it into consideration in the report of the committee.
Mr. Louie: Certainly.
Senator Watt: Mr. Seymour, you mentioned the involvement of your community in the forest industry sector. Are you aware of the Supreme Court of British Columbia ruling of May 10, 2004 with regard to proper consultation with the communities on logging matters?
Mr. Seymour: Yes, I am aware of that ruling.
Senator Watt: I believe this is one of the most useful rulings for Aboriginal people across the country, regardless of whether they have a settlement. If something is to be extracted from a piece of land, there must be proper consultation first, whether a land claims settlement is in place or not in place.
Mr. Seymour: That decision has had a significant impact on our community. One of the earlier witnesses spoke to the 20 per cent take-back by British Columbia. Only 8 per cent of that 20 per cent take-back has been allocated to First Nations. The province developed a policy based on band member numbers.
Our traditional territory encompasses 4.6 million hectares. More wood is taken out of the British Columbia interior than probably anywhere in the world. Their formula, I believe, is 50 cubic metres per band member provided us with about 11,000 cubic metres annually. The Current annual cut in our region is over 9 million cubic metres. From the community's perspective, the policy was not fair. The rationale of the provincial government was that we had to share the resources with First Nations in the British Columbia. That decision clearly stated that such a policy was not fair and that the province must revisit the policy.
Senator Watt: I would imagine your people will revisit the matter.
Mr. Seymour: Yes, they also mentioned that 50 short-term interim measures agreements were established in British Columbia. There is no long-term view and, in my opinion, that approach is not conducive to a long-term, stable economy in the Aboriginal community.
Senator Watt: I wish to return to the subject of management. If I understood correctly, you deal with people across the country, not only in British Columbia. Do you have a head office and, if so, where is it? Do you have offices in each province? How does management take place? Who sits on the board of directors, and by whom are they appointed?
Mr. Louie: In essence, the Lands Advisory Board is comprised of those chiefs or community members involved in the implementation phase. The political body of the Lands Advisory Board consists of elected representatives from the First Nations that have passed land codes. We have made an effort to have representation from across Canada. The Lands Advisory Board is composed of those individuals who collectively represent the interests of the signatories and of developmental First Nations.
The technical body is the Lands Advisory Board and Resource Centre. Our offices are in the Kanata area of Ottawa, where our main facility provides technical support that is backed up by a number of lawyers and other consultants from different parts of Canada. The resource centre also has a board of directors that consists of individuals such as Mr. Barry Seymour, who was elected when he was chief. Three other individuals represent the finance committee. In turn, they have a responsibility as directed by the Lands Advisory Board chiefs and communities to ensure that monies are available and that technical assistance is provided to those communities interested in or are participating in the land management process.
Senator Watt: Does the minister's appointee still sit on the board?
Mr. Louie: No ministerial appointment sits on the board. On occasion we meet at the political level with Minister Scott, or with the deputy minister and assistant deputy ministers, and with other officials. It depends whether the issue is political, bureaucratic or other.
Senator Gustafson: You mentioned that jurisdiction is critical, and you made mention of laws and an understanding of direction. In the Kelowna project, was the land claim settlement complete before you moved forward? Was that your reference?
Mr. Louie: No, senator. Westbank went through various steps to achieve its current status. The most recent was the successful implementation of our self-government agreement. Westbank is involved in the B.C. treaty negotiation process, which is a final step. As early as 1977, Westbank had a land management agreement with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We went as far as we could go under the existing Indian Act. Sections 53 and 60 of the Indian Act give a First Nation authority to exercise land management. We implemented section 53 in 1980 and section 60 in 1985. Section 53 deals with surrendered lands, which are referred to as ``designated lands'' today. Those are lands in common that a community may vote to move into economic development for leases. Section 60 refers to lands other than lands in common.
The next step was taxation and, I believe, Westbank was the second community in Canada, following the Kamloops Indian Band, to implement a property tax assessment regime on reserves. From that point, Westbank moved to the land code, which was passed under the First Nation Land Management Act. The final step is self-government for Westbank, which will give us the jurisdiction of governance and the various matters pertaining to affairs of Westbank First Nation. Thus, the land claim is our next and final step. All the steps have prepared us to be ready to make land claims settlements for our community.
Senator Gustafson: The business is such that you develop a parcel of land with an apartment block or commercial facility. Rather than sell the property, it is leased for 99 years; is that correct?
Mr. Louie: The general format is the land lease in effect for as long as 99 years. In residential development for single family homes, the lease can be shorter term. However, higher-end residential developments are looking at 99-year leases. That was our option. Some of the large, commercial developments such as Zellers, Tim Hortons, Extra Foods and others, have 99-year leases. Some industrial leases are for 49 years and some trailer park leases are 25 years. The length of the lease varies on the kind of development so we have a variety of terms and tenures.
Senator Gustafson: Chief Seymour mentioned location, location, location, which I can understand working well in B.C., especially around Kelowna, where there are many opportunities for development. Are we becoming an urbanized society?
Mr. Louie: In some respects, that is happening in communities adjacent to urban centres more today than in the past. I would also say that many communities not adjacent to urban centres are participating in land management. The McLeod Lake Indian Band, located two hours north of Prince George, is not adjacent to an urban centre. The main focus of the McLeod Lake Band has been forestry resources. The band has in excess of $350 million available in timber resources. They passed their land and forestry codes on the premise that they would take over jurisdiction of forestry. That tremendous asset to the band was a catalyst. Other rural communities, whether in Ontario or elsewhere, have other resources such as aggregates and minerals. Some communities that we know of want the jurisdiction because they can protect their lands from expropriation. We have heard many horror stories across Canada where expropriation has occurred on reserves. Having land management and a land code in place prevents governments from expropriating reserve lands. It is a serious issue that causes much concern for many communities. That may be another rationale or catalyst for communities wanting to enter into the land code process. There are various reasons from different communities.
Senator Gustafson: It is good to hear that development is happening. However, I would have some concern with the difficulty of seeing this happen across the country, especially in rural parts of Canada. Canadians involved in agriculture total about 2.5 per cent of the population and that percentage is decreasing. There should be much more concern than there is.
Senator Peterson: One common theme of the witnesses this evening has been jurisdictional management problems on reserve land. Chief Louie, could you expand on that? Was the reference to reserve lands away from urban areas or to urban reserves? What are the problems?
Mr. Wilson: I will give you an example, senator. The Squamish Nation has 24 reserves, four of which are in the urban Vancouver area with the remaining located in Howe Sound or Squamish areas toward Whistler. The problems we run into are similar in nature. We have seven different municipalities and two regional districts that also try to govern over our reserve land base. With the land code we are trying to gain jurisdiction over all our rural and urban reserves so that when we conduct business with outside investors, we are able to set the terms and conditions for good investments by having a stable government and infrastructure base. It is not only for urban bands but also for bands that want the ability to develop opportunities that exist in their areas.
Senator Peterson: I understand but if you are in an urban setting, would you not have to be compatible with that jurisdiction for approvals, et cetera?
Mr. Williams: That is correct.
Senator Peterson: It would be different in rural areas but you would still have to deal with some approving authority, certainly. Is it your wish to have one set of land-use directives to cover everything?
Mr. Williams: That is right.
Senator Peterson: That could be tough sledding.
Mr. Williams: It is complicated and that ball was dropped on the Squamish Nation by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. That is why we require this kind of jurisdictional control and the proper resourcing to set it out on behalf of our membership.
The Chairman: Chief Williams, you have given us a list of projects that are delayed because of the lack of land code. What is the delay? What is the problem in resolving the delay? Could you elaborate on that?
Mr. Williams: There are problems with the survey boundaries to define the exact size of some reserves where there has been river erosion. As well, the land designation process for surrendered use is lengthy. There are also problems in reviewing our partnership agreements when the Department of Justice Canada is involved. One example of that occurred when The Real Canadian Superstore negotiated to pay the Squamish Nation $1 million per year. They negotiated with Squamish for six months to get the deal we wanted. It was handed over to DIAND and Justice Canada and it took 18 months for officials to get back to us on the negotiated deal so our partners almost walked out on the deal. We are in a process today for Seymour Creek Village, where there is a problem with the designation for 240,000 square feet of retail space. The location is right beside a river and there has been erosion, so the survey is not settled. There are five or six different areas at issue that fall on each one of these opportunities. If we had better control of the decision-making processes for our chiefs in council through our memberships' vote, things would flow much faster.
The Chairman: That is simply the nature of the problems that you specified and need to be dealt with. There is no difficulty with developing a land code under the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management. What is the delay? If there is a desire for land management provisions, what is the greatest encumbrance to success in that area? Wherein lies the problem — government or your membership?
Mr. Williams: At this time, the problem rests with the government. We have volumes and volumes of documents prepared by DIAND and Justice on behalf of Squamish Nations. They date back about 100 years and show that some of these problems and issues have never been corrected. When we looked at B.C. Hydro rights-of-way, we found 145 of them on our reserve. About 120 of them are cases of trespass because B.C. Hydro installed those lines through our reserves without consent. In some cases, B.C. Hydro proceeded with the rights-of-way without the proper documentation, even though there was an unrecorded vote. A long list of issues led to three years' negotiations to resolve one problem.
We have other problems with the Minister of Transportation and Highways that affect six or seven reserves. The railway had similar interests and asked for a right-of-way. When building the right-of-way, they decided to straighten the line in another direction, outside the designated right-of-way. Therefore, they are sitting on an un-surrendered piece of property that is not part of the right-of-way. Many small things have added up to a major catastrophe for the Squamish trying to take over our land management rights on behalf of our membership.
The Chairman: Do you have specific claims issues with you? These claims are made by First Nations and need to be resolved with the federal government. A process to deal with that process is in place. Do you simply negotiate this?
Mr. Williams: We deal with it on a negotiated basis.
Senator Watt: My question is a supplementary to Senator Peterson. You mentioned that you would prefer to have one land management code to suit all such that it would apply to all the lands on reserve.
Mr. Williams: That is correct.
Senator Watt: Are we talking about on reserve only?
Mr. Williams: That is correct.
Senator Watt: We are not talking about land adjacent to the reserve,
Mr. Williams: No. With adjacent-to-reserve issues, we have probably another 50 to 100 different opportunities because of the court cases you mentioned. All these other opportunities are moving along much faster than reserve- based development.
Senator Watt: Do you negotiate with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
Mr. Williams: Yes.
Senator Watt: What could this committee do to assist?
Mr. Seymour: Do you want the list?
Mr. Louie: If I could attempt to answer that, senator, because it is a good question, number one would be to —
Senator Watt: That is part of our job.
Mr. Louie: Yes, and we very much appreciate this because it is forums such as this that can make things happen in this country. One thing would be support of the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management process. It is important to offer the opportunity to First Nations in Canada interested in the initiative. That would encourage and urge the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development on to make available those opportunities to participate.
Many First Nations have been waiting for years to participate, and many of them are becoming frustrated. It is fundamental for those communities to opt in and take over their land management jurisdiction. Support of a training institute to provide capacity building to First Nations is important. That will take dollars and time to set up. Much work has been done in support of the proposal and to encourage government to make the necessary funds available so that the training institute could be operational. That would be a tremendous benefit.
It would be helpful from a financial perspective if senators could assist us in finalizing the land registry regulations. In that way, more financial institutions would have monies available to proceed with investments on reserve lands. The existing vacuum has caused the loss of millions of dollars in investments on reserves. If the environmental management agreement were finalized between the Department of the Environment and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, it would finalize the law-making process.
As a member of the board of directors of the Peace Hills Trust, I am familiar with dealing with some of the policy issues of DIAND. Financial institutions, whether trust companies, banks or other financial lenders, often focus on what security might be provided to a First Nation developer. One security is a contribution agreement, which a First Nation agrees to provide. Some security institutions have been reluctant to accept a contribution agreement or a percentage of the contribution agreement provided annually to a First Nation. Some past policies of DIAND have frustrated financial institutions' efforts at collection and, as such, have scared them away from additional financing. That has been a serious problem.
A partial remedy has surfaced through some policy changes that are not finalized yet, so it is still a problem. DIAND needs encouragement to revisit those policies and make those securities available so that financial institutions will lend on reserves. That is fundamentally important.
Senator Watt: Would you put those in writing for submission to the committee?
Mr. Louie: Yes, we could do that.
Senator Watt: That would be appreciated.
Senator Gustafson: I have a question to ask for Senator St. Germain, who was formerly active on this committee. Apparently many projects would proceed if the government would sign off on the agreements. Is that right? Would having self-government jurisdiction resolve the concerns?
Mr. Louie: In my experience with Westbank First Nation, I believe it would go a long way to providing opportunities. Our self-government agreement took about 17 years to finalize. I hope that the process would be expedited for future signatories. It is a tremendous burden on any community to go through a process for so many years. That could be of significant benefit.
There are other agreements. For example, many communities have additions to reserve lands in different parts of Canada. The House of Commons has looked at that policy but there have been no decisions yet. Perhaps this committee will look at that issue. Having additions to reserves available so that specific land claim settlements or other agreements with the provinces could be expedited is crucial.
In Westbank with the Okanagan Lake Bridge project and west approach interchanges negotiations we will be looking at additions to reserves. The lands would be fundamental to opportunities for economic development. Such things could be expedited with a more efficient process for land transfers.
Senator Gustafson: Certain municipalities and cities, such as Kelowna, could put up roadblocks in terms of infrastructure. Do you want something formalized across the country to legalize this opportunity to move it forward?
Mr. Louie: I will try to answer that by drawing on my experience, again. At Westbank, the First Nations community has provided some of the infrastructure. We build and operate our water systems and that is a critical part of development. We provide water service to over 8,000 non-native residents as well as our own residents. We have sewage agreements with the Regional District of the Central Okanagan, and that allows intensified developments to take place. Agreements for roads and other agreements with the Ministry of Transportation and Highways are critical. We have put such infrastructure arrangements in place.
The implementation of a land code would give the First Nation an opportunity to enter into these agreements without having to go hat in hand to DIAND for permission. When one of the former Conservative governments was in power, my community was looking at intensified shopping centre and residential developments. For the project, we needed a tie-in to the regional district sewage system. An agreement was prepared but the Regional District of Central Okanagan and the Province of British Columbia would not allow us to enter into that agreement unless the minister gave his approval with a signature. I tracked down then Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Tom Sidden, in Kamloops, and convinced him through protracted discussions to sign off on the agreement. He said that his signature as a minister was not needed on the document but signed it because it was a new requirement. He said that it would have to change in the future. We took that to heart, and the change is the land code and jurisdiction of land management, which is extremely important.
The Chairman: If there are no further questions, I thank our witnesses for appearing this evening. The information they provided will be most helpful to the committee's study on the involvement of Aboriginals in economic development in Canada.
Mr. Louie: Thank you, honourable senators.
The committee adjourned.