Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Agriculture and Forestry
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of October 7, 2004
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 7, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 8:35 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Line Gravel, Clerk of the Committee: The first item on the agenda is the election of a chair for your committee. Pursuant to rule 88, I will preside over the elections. I am at your disposal, if you have any motions.
Senator Oliver: I would like to move that Senator Fairbairn be the chair of this committee.
Ms. Gravel: Senator Oliver moves that Senator Fairbairn be the chair of the committee. Are there any other motions? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Gravel: Against? Abstentions? It is unanimously carried. I invite Senator Fairbairn to take the chair, please.
Senator Joyce Fairbairn (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, colleagues. This committee has been a part of my life for years. The committee has a tremendous history and, in my opinion, is one of the best committees of the Senate.
I am particularly touched that Senator Oliver, the former chair of the committee and under whose chairmanship the committee did so much good work, moved this motion today, and I thank him for it.
The second task is the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Callbeck: I move that Senator Len Gustafson be deputy chair of the committee.
The Chairman: Any further motions, or comments? Is it the will of the committee that Senator Gustafson take the chair as our deputy chair?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Senators should know that Senator Gustafson is not here today because he is frantically combining what crop he can get in after a bit of heat. He is a real veteran, and I am very glad to be able to work with him.
Item No. 3 on our agenda concerns the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, that it be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member to be designated after the usual consultation; and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to agenda, inviting witnesses and scheduling hearings.
May I have a motion on that, please?
Senator Mercer: I so move.
Senator Tkachuk: That is who?
The Chairman: It is just a motion so that Senator Gustafson and I, after consultation with the committee, can appoint that person. Thank you.
Item No. 4 relates to printing the committee's proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator Oliver, in your tenure, you have had to do that more than once.
Senator Oliver: We have had to print extra copies of various reports because they are in demand.
The Chairman: Could we have a motion on that?
Senator Hubley: I so move.
The Chairman: All agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 5, authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present. It provides that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, providing that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
May I have a motion?
Senator Callbeck: I so move.
The Chairman: Any comments? Motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 6, the financial report, is next. The motion that is before us is a matter of regular form under the Rules of the Senate. It covers the period of the very short session that we were in before the election was called.
May I have a mover?
Senator Oliver: So moved.
The Chairman: All agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The research staff is one of the regular motions for the committee, that we ask the Library of Parliament to assign research analysts to the committee and that I be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it, and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and that the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
May I have a motion on that?
Senator Oliver: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: As an offside remark, we have been superbly served on this committee over the years by the Library of Parliament. I am sure that they will continue to provide that kind of service.
Item No. 8 relates to the authority to commit funds and certify accounts, that under section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, and section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate administration rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk, and that pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate administrative rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk.
That is a regular motion. Do I have a mover?
Senator Callbeck: So moved.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next is Item No. 9, travel — that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Do I have a mover?
Senator Hubley: So moved.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next is Item No. 10, designation of members travelling on committee business and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998, and consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee or making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Do I have a mover?
Senator Mercer: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next is Item No. 11, travelling and living expenses of witnesses. Pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness, should there be exceptional circumstances — which happens from time to time.
Do we have a mover?
Senator Oliver: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 12, electronic media coverage of public meetings, that the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
If I may make a comment, I do believe that under the chairmanship of Senator Oliver there was regular live coverage of this committee. That coverage did an enormous service, not only to us, but to the issue and to the work of the witnesses. This committee is in the eye of a hurricane right now on a lot of issues; as such, with the agreement of the committee in principle, as we pass this motion, I want to say that I will make every effort possible to have our proceedings televised as often as possible, to get the maximum coverage possible.
Do I have a mover?
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Tkachuk . All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 13, time slot for regular meetings. We have had the same time slot for quite a few years, five o'clock on Tuesdays, when the Senate is adjourned, but not before five o'clock, and then Thursdays from 8:00 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. here in this building. Both those meetings are held here in this building.
Does that continue to be agreeable to senators?
Senator Callbeck: Agreed.
Senator Tkachuk: I am not very happy about the eight o'clock time slot.
The Chairman: None of us is happy about that, Senator Tkachuk.
Senator Tkachuk: It is embarrassing for a Prairie boy to say so.
The Chairman: Over time, it became part of the culture of the committee that because people involved in agriculture get up early in the morning to work the fields, et cetera, so too do members of the committee rise early in the morning for our meetings.
Senator Mercer: This time slot conflicts a fair amount with other committee meetings, as well as caucus committee meetings.
The Chairman: Caucus committee meetings?
Senator Mercer: Yes, on our side, there is at least one caucus committee meeting on Thursday mornings.
Senator Oliver: Most caucuses are supposed to be on Wednesdays.
Senator Tkachuk: Why do you not get up at eight o'clock on Wednesday?
Senator Mercer: We do.
Senator Tkachuk: There are no committee meetings at eight o'clock on Wednesday.
The Chairman: Senators, there are always conflicts. Our whips tear their hair out trying to do the best job possible.
Senator Tkachuk: I was just kidding.
The Chairman: However, with respect to a caucus issue, that is not really within the purview of the chair of this committee.
Senator Mercer: To continue with what Senator Tkachuk indicated, if there is only enough business for one meeting in a week, we opt for the night time meeting as opposed to the morning meeting.
The Chairman: We will certainly take those views into consideration. We do not believe in having meetings simply for the sake of having meetings. There will be an agenda that each one of you and others will contribute to. We will try not to burden members. If it is not necessary to have two meetings a week, we will not have two meetings a week, but if we are hot and heavy on some of the issues that are in front of us, it is in the interests both of the committee to do its work and get its reports done and of the issues themselves, which are often important and timely.
I certainly will take Senator Mercer's views under consideration and do the very best we can.
This takes us to Item No. 14, other business. Under this item, I wish to mention that we have a new clerk, as senators can see. Keli Hogan is off doing other things.
Ms. Gravel: The Energy Committee.
The Chairman: We have with us Line Gravel. She is a well-schooled veteran and is very keen to be helpful to this committee. We are delighted to have you.
Ms. Gravel: Thank you.
The Chairman: The next matter is the orders of reference for this new session. Senators have been them the orders of reference for the third session of the last Parliament. There are two orders in there that, if it is agreeable to the committee, I would try to get on the record in the Senate this afternoon. One is that the committee be authorized to hear from time to time witnesses, including both individuals and representatives from organizations, on the present state and the future of agriculture and forestry in Canada. The second one is the issues related to the development and marketing of value-added agricultural, agri-food and forest products on the domestic and international markets. Those orders of the reference cover what the committee will be working on.
The committee can look forward to continuing the work it already started. As well, since we last met, much has taken place internationally and with respect to the World Trade Organization that undoubtedly impacts on agriculture, and we want to be on top of that.
If it is agreed, I will try to have these orders presented today.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: This organization committee meeting today puts us in place to begin hearings. Because it was not clear until just recently exactly what would be going on next week, I am committed to some speaking engagement elsewhere in Canada. I do not know the plans of other members, but if it is agreeable we could take next week as a time to have our clerk arrange meetings for us, as we can discuss in a minute, with a view to having them begin the week after next.
Do honourable senators have any comments in this regard?
Senator Tkachuk: It will probably take a while on our regular study of value-added to get everything organized, but certainly when we come back we might have the most senior officials available — and I hope they are the most senior officials — to update us on softwood lumber and BSE. It would be nice to know what has happened since last April when we left. It would be good to be updated on these matters, to be fully informed as to what is taking place in the marketplace. That would be a good way to get started and get caught up on things.
The Chairman: I would agree with your comments. In a very unofficial way, I began to make inquiries yesterday with the office of the Minister of Agriculture as to his travel plans. I know he is making an important visit to Asia, Korea, Japan and China next week. I asked if we could get a commitment, once our committee was formally set up, that both the minister and his officials at the first opportunity would attend here with the purpose of giving us an overview on whatever matter or matters the committees wishes to know about. After listening to Senator Tkachuk, our clerk can start doing that formally officially now, and also on the softwood lumber issue as well.
Senator Mercer: I concur with my colleague. I should like to have that briefing as well. I continue to be concerned, as I was in the last session, with the excessive and grotesque profits being made by the meat packers on the backs of the farmers using the BSE recovery programs that this government and the provincial governments have put in place, where we see a 281 per cent increase in profits in a couple of the companies in the last six months of 2003. It is incumbent on us to review that again. It looks to me as though the governments' attempts to solve the problem — and they are well intended, all of them — have been taken by these people and that an awful lot of money has gone south. When I say ``south,'' I mean both its terms. The programs did not perform as well as they should have, and the money indeed has gone south and has ended up in the profit lines of major companies. We need to review that.
I am not suggesting that this briefing can take place at the first meeting, but we need to put it on the agenda. I am like a dog with a bone about this one. I do not think we should let it go. It is important.
Senator Tkachuk: I am sure the officials will be able to brief us on the program. It is their program.
Senator Mercer: I would hope that the officials would be prepared for that line of questioning.
The Chairman: Exactly. I know that the clerk will follow up on this. We are not expecting nor desiring the minister to show up here alone. Mr. Speller attended here with three of the top people in the department, including, if I recall correctly, the head of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. There are questions in recent times that we would want to get clarification on as well. I will make it clear that it is not a question of loose ends with the BSE issue, that the issue is still very much with us and will be with us as long as the border remains closed. I would believe that any of the issues attached to that particular file are open game for requesting that witnesses come prepared knowing that there will be such questions and, if necessary, follow it up further.
I am pleased, Senator Tkachuk, that you mentioned softwood lumber. This committee deal with both agriculture and forestry. There are regions of the country where forestry is heavier than in other regions — the same is true of the cattle issue, although recently it seems to be all over the place. We want to be able to fulfil our mandate in getting ourselves up to speed on those kinds of issues as well.
If I may suggest, also, because of some of the new points that have come up with the World Trade Organization in the interim since we last met, we may want to have the Minister of Trade come and talk to us, just to see what he has to say. It would be interesting to hear from trading officials.
Senator Hubley: There is another incident of potato wart in Prince Edward Island, in an adjacent area to where it was discovered previously. I would like to have the officials monitor the protocol that will be taken and how they handle that, and also how the United States will respond to the fact that we are using the protocol that was put in place when we last experienced the same situation.
If the inspectors are on strike, how will the fields be monitored and inspected for that particular problem? It will become an issue in the next few days. I would like that to be highlighted, as well, when the ministers come.
The Chairman: Very much so. Senator Callbeck mentioned this to me yesterday; I had not been aware of it. It appears to have been kept fairly quiet. Thankfully, there has been nothing done to date that would indicate a recurrence of the border issue that happened previously. Hopefully, the fungus is being contained, but it is important to know that. I would ask the clerk to put that on her list.
Senator Oliver: Like Senator Mercer, I agree entirely with the suggestions made by Senator Tkachuk on how we should start, that is, both agriculture and softwood lumber. I would add BSE, even though BSE it is largely considered a problem in Alberta and Saskatchewan, has implications all across Canada.
The Chairman: Huge implications.
Senator Oliver: Even though most people think the big problem with softwood lumber is in British Columbia, it impacts the entire country, including Nova Scotia. We must keep in mind that both are national problems. That is the great benefit of Senator Tkachuk's approach: We look at the two areas that the committee is studying, both agriculture and forestry, and see them as national problems.
The Chairman: Do you have any particular witness in mind to start off on the softwood lumber?
Senator Tkachuk: I think it should be trade or forestry officials who are dealing with the matter. We should know what is happening, what is taking place and at what stage the negotiations are. If the minister is available, fine, but I think the top officials should be here.
The Chairman: All right.
Senator Mercer: We should develop a list of questions.
The Chairman: Undoubtedly. I am glad you repeated it, Senator Oliver. In the past, because of the immediacy of some issues, we have focused on one area of the country, but in this case these issues have a wide national effect. Even though the horror of it all does sit in a certain area, regrettably mine, in Alberta, at least the beginning of it, the border issue has spread all across the country.
Senator Oliver: I live on a farm. My next door neighbour is a beef farmer. He has had to sell most of his herd, because of the depressed price of cattle caused by BSE. He is pretty well getting out of the business. There are only 40 people in our town.
The Chairman: We will start with those two issues. That should keep us going for the next while.
Senator Mercer: It is important that we also recognize the work of the previous clerk and staff from the Library of Parliament, perhaps by way of a formal motion of thanks. I would be happy to move that motion, so that we can pass along to Keli Hogan and the two people from the Library of Parliament our appreciation for their past efforts and our best wishes for them in their future duties.
Ms. Gravel: I can do that.
Senator Mercer: Keli, in particular.
The Chairman: I would be pleased to do that. We will do that in writing. When will we know who our researchers from the Library of Parliament will be?
Ms. Gravel: I believe the same researchers are coming back. It is just for the organization meeting.
The Chairman: Hopefully, we will have that continuity with our researchers.
If there are no further comments or suggestions, I look forward to the time ahead. I do not think it will be an easy time. I am not referring to the committee itself, as you are all very warm and loving people, but there will be a rough, tough bunch of issues facing us. We have done so well in the past, and I hope the committee will continue to make the same kind of productive contribution it made under Senator Oliver and Senator Gustafson.
Thank you very much.
The committee adjourned.