Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Banking, Trade and Commerce
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of October 7, 2004
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 7, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce met this day at 11:20 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Senate, for an organizational meeting.
[Translation]
Mr. Gérald Lafrenière, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I see that we have a quorum. As Clerk of the Committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the Chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Angus: I would be happy to nominate Senator Grafstein to be the chair of this committee.
Mr. Lafrenière: Are there any other nominations?
Seeing none, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Angus that the Honourable Senator Grafstein do take the chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Lafrenière: I declare the motion carried and invite the Honourable Senator Grafstein to take the chair.
Senator Jerahmiel S. Grafstein (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: This is a great honour for me. This is the first time since I have been appointed to the Senate that I have been asked and accepted to be a chair of a committee. After 21 years of preparatory work in all committees — I have been a member of practically all committees — this is certainly a great privilege and honour. Historically, as best I know, this committee has been the most prestigious and one of the most influential of all Senate committees. I am humbled and privileged to take on the responsibility as your chair. I offer only one suggestion — that I will be open- minded and fair-minded and will work as diligently as I can to pursue the objectives of this committee.
Thank you for your support. I look forward to working with each of you, and I hope to meet with you collectively and individually from time to time to discuss the important work of this committee.
Let me now turn to our agenda. I will now turn to Item No. 2, the election of the deputy chair. May I have a motion?
Senator Tkachuk: I am move that Senator Angus be the deputy chair of the committee.
The Chairman: Is there a seconder?
Senator Biron: I so move.
The Chairman: Any further nominations? I assume, since there are no further nominations, that we unanimously approve the election of Senator Angus as deputy chair. Congratulations, Senator Angus.
Senator Angus: Thank you, Chairman, and I echo your own comments — although I do not know whether I can measure up to your statement of humility, but I will try to be humble. Thank you, colleagues. I look forward to a great session.
The Chairman: We move to the agenda because I promised everyone we would complete this as quickly as possible.
Item No. 3 is a motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda to invite witnesses and schedule hearings.
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The Chairman: I am advised that I do not need a seconder; I just need a mover. I have consulted with members of the committee on this.
Senator Plamondon, you have a comment?
[Translation]
Senator Plamondon: Would this be a motion to elect Senator Hervieux-Payette?
[English]
The Chairman: I have spoken to her this morning and the normal practice, as I understand it, is to consult with the whips on both sides and then come forward with a proposal, but I have spoken to her about this, and she is contemplating this position.
Senator Plamondon: Should she be the chair of another committee and not able to be on the steering committee, I would be happy to be there.
The Chairman: We will take this a step at a time. I have spoken to you about that. I have consulted with our other colleagues.
Senator Plamondon: She is the person I would prefer to put in.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Senator Angus: We are all in favour. I should like to say, more in the nature of a point of order, that I was informed in a committee I attended this morning that there is no magic in the number ``three,'' even though it has psychological connotations, chairman. You could have four or five people, as long as it is not more than half the members of the committee. If and when you are considering Senator Plamondon's intervention, you might keep that in mind.
The Chairman: I appreciate that. I will consult with you broadly before we take a step in any direction. Thank you very much, senator, for your astute advice. It is much appreciated.
Therefore, I take that motion as carried.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Angus: For the rest of these motions — again, I am learning fast this morning; I have been to about six of these meetings — you can have one motion en bloc from number 4 right through, not including adjournment, but including number 13 as one motion. That might save a bit of time.
The Chairman: I find that is acceptable. Is there a seconder to that procedure, which is dispensing with all the motions, taking them as read, and approving them seriatim one at a time?
Senator Tkachuk: I have one question, which I always have, on electronic media coverage of public hearings. Will it be the policy of the chair to invite the media to all meetings, unless the committee decides otherwise?
The Chairman: I will be open on that question. Give me some time to consult with everyone on that because I am not sure what the practice of the committee has been in the past. Perhaps you can tell me what the committee's practice has been.
Senator Tkachuk: We have always passed this motion, and I do not know what the practice has been of the chairman. He has not told me, but I do know that from time to time meetings were not covered that I thought might be covered. I just wanted to ensure that there is an open invitation to CPAC to cover and that we provide them with the information and that we take a proactive view of this.
The Chairman: I have been informed that our practice has been to allow CPAC to cover all of our hearings, and CPAC then decides whether to cover them.
Senator Tkachuk: That would be your policy.
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: Then I have no problem.
The Chairman: Senator Angus has moved items 4 through 13. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I want to repeat that our regular meeting slots are Wednesdays, when the Senate rises, but not before 4 p.m., and Thursdays at 10:45.
I intend again to talk to the leadership on both sides to see whether we can fix our times on a regular basis when we have witnesses. There has been a great debate in the chamber, as you know, that we should not allow committees to meet until the chamber adjourns, barring extraordinary requirements and a special motion.
The problem with that — and I found it in all the committees on which I have served — is that a committee brings witnesses from across the country, only to sit around for two or three hours sometimes, which is not fair to the witnesses or to the work of this committee. With your support, I will urge our leadership to deal with this, so that when we have witnesses from across the country we can schedule them at a fixed time if we are hearing them on a Wednesday.
The work of this committee, when I have looked at it, has been extraordinary, and we will need all the time — as much as possible — while everyone is here on Wednesday for that important meeting.
I will go forward with that, and we will have that debate I am sure in our various caucuses to discover that. However, it is not fair for witnesses to come from across the country to have to sit around for an hour or two, as they have had to do from time to time, without an explanation or without any satisfactory answer. There is no reason for it. There is no public pressure not to allow witnesses to appear on a timely basis.
Senator Plamondon: At the same time, it is our duty to be in the chamber. I do not think we should have to choose between the chamber and the committee. We should sit in the chamber and sit on committees.
The Chairman: I hear you, senator. I think it depends on the votes or the discussions in the Senate at a particular moment in time, but if the committee objects to me doing that, then I will not do so.
Let me say, however, that I have sat on a number of committees that had witnesses scheduled, where, in looking back at the record of the chamber at the time, it was not pressing work. In other words, it was business in the normal course. Obviously, if there are contentious issues, that would not be the case.
An agreement was reached years ago, after a lot of fuss, where the chamber would meet earlier on Wednesdays, at 1:30, and adjourn at four o'clock, in order for the committees to meet. That was the reason we moved up the entire session — Senators Tkachuk, Angus and Biron will recall this — but it has not worked.
We will discuss that in our caucuses. You might discuss that there and we cannot make any changes without bringing it back to the Senate for a full discussion.
Senator Plamondon: Can we not meet in the morning?
The Chairman: No, both parties have a caucus meeting in the morning.
Senator Plamondon: At night?
The Chairman: We can continue in the evening, no problem.
Senator Plamondon: The Senate is being criticized when there is no one in the chamber. I think we should be in the chamber. We have to be there.
The Chairman: I will ensure that your views are expressed in our caucus, I promise to do that.
Senator Plamondon: Thank you, because I have no caucus.
The Chairman: I promise to ensure that your views are expressed in our caucus.
Senator Angus: The public is particularly keen on having the independent senators present in the Senate at all times.
Senator Plamondon: Yes, and I want to be present at the committee, too.
Senator Tkachuk: We would be happy to have you in our caucus.
The Chairman: They may make you an offer that you cannot refuse, senator.
Senator Plamondon: I am independent, and I will stay independent.
The Chairman: I understand. In any event, our meeting time will be at four o'clock on Wednesday, and then on Thursday at 10:45 a.m.
Senator Angus: Will we continue to meet in this room? There are some beautiful new state-of-the-art rooms downstairs, on the main floor of this building; I do not know if those rooms have yet to be allocated for committees. Those rooms have all of the electronic devices and toys, which is attractive, given that we are covered by CPAC.
The Chairman: I am advised by the clerk that once those rooms are open for business, we are at the top of the priority list. I will leave it to the clerk for him to pursue that, and thank you so much for that bringing that to our attention.
I now turn to number 14, other business. I do not intend to have a discussion today about other business. I can only tell you what I intend to do myself in the next 10 days. I have asked for a written review — which I will be glad to circulate — of the work of this committee in the last 20 years and the impact of each one of those studies. In other words, I wish to determine the impact of those studies. Then I intend to do a review the history of the committee from the time it was established, whenever it was established. I hope to do that in the next 10 days, so that when we sit down and discuss the work of the committee, I will have a good sense, which I am prepared to share with you, about what studies had an impact and what studies did not, so that we can make a cost-benefit analysis of how we should proceed going forward.
Senator Angus: That is a great idea.
The Chairman: Senator Plamondon has asked me to raise the question of one of her interests, which is interest on credit card charges and so on.
Senator Plamondon: Not only credit cards, but credit interest.
The Chairman: Credit interest, generally.
Senator Plamondon: It was unanimously decided last year in the Senate not to study that matter. We may look at the impact of what was studied, but we may look at what was left and not studied.
The Chairman: I intend to do that, as well. Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention.
Are there any other ideas senators would like to float now? Otherwise, I am prepared to consult with the senators individually and collectively to ensure that the work of this committee is not only well done, as has been the great history of this committee, but something that makes a great public impact and makes a difference. We will try our very best. That is all we can do.
Senator Biron: Last spring, we discussed studying the cross-corporation mergers.
The Chairman: That is an open question; I am prepared to look at, as well. If I could have a couple of weeks, I will come back much more informed about what your work has been and what I might propose. I will be open-minded. This committee has been noted for it is collegiality in terms of its work. I hope to continue the idea that we are working not in a partisan way, but in terms of public interest.
Senator Tkachuk: On that first Wednesday, we could perhaps get together when we meet, to discuss what we would study.
The Chairman: I would hope that we will look at that and not jump into this. The time of this committee is limited and precious. Therefore, I think we must ensure that we all agree that what we do is something everyone wants to do.
Senator Tkachuk: Is there something you know that we do not?
The Chairman: Frankly, no, but I am sure that by the time we next meet I will know more. It has been too sudden. Again, I will take a motion to adjourn.
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The committee adjourned.