Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 1 - Evidence, October 18, 2004
OTTAWA, Monday, October 18, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 3:02 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Daniel Charbonneau, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. It is my duty to preside over the election of the chair of this committee. I am now prepared to accept any nominations.
Senator Forrestall.
Senator Forrestall: Chair, it gives me a great deal of pleasure, on behalf of all the members of this committee and another ad hoc committee that worked almost all summer on related business, to put forward the name of Senator Colin Kenny as chair of this committee.
We have two major jobs to go through the rest of the fall and, depending on the wishes and desires of the government, perhaps more intricate and involved work in another related capacity.
I can think of none better prepared to lead us in the continuation of this work than Senator Kenny, who has been outstanding in his efforts, his contribution, not just his contribution of personal time but his energy and efforts. I am delighted to put his name forward in nomination.
Mr. Charbonneau: It is moved by Senator Forrestall that Senator Kenny do take the chair. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Charbonneau: Senator Kenny, I invite you to take the chair.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, thank you very much for your expression of support.
Going through these motions is a long exercise, so I will move to those immediately so that we may proceed to discuss matters of substance.
Item No. 2 on the agenda is the election of the deputy chair.
Senator Day: Mr. Chair, I will be briefer, but I take an equal amount of pleasure in nominating for the position of deputy chair of this committee Senator Michael Forrestall.
The Chairman: Are there any other nominations?
Senator Banks: I move nominations close.
The Chairman: Is it agreed that Senator Forrestall be deputy chair of the committee?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion on the list deals with the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Would someone move this motion, please?
Senator Meighen: So moved.
The Chairman: I take it that we will do the usual consultation and report back to the committee.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: On motion No. 4, could I have a mover, please, that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand? In previous sessions, we printed around 280 copies, but the number may vary according to the number of requests we get. We need authority to do that.
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chairman: It is moved by Senator Banks. All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Motion No. 5 deals with the authorization to hold meetings and print evidence when a quorum is not present. Would a senator move that, please?
Senator Banks: Would you entertain a motion to move items Nos. 5 through 12?
The Chairman: I will consult with the clerk as to whether that is in order.
Mr. Charbonneau: Yes, it is.
Senator Meighen: Is it a practice borne out of courtesy or is it an established rule that, if there is no quorum present, there should be representatives from both the government and the opposition?
The Chairman: It is just a practice. The established rule is that, in order to hear evidence, members from both sides should be present. That is my understanding. We will find out the real answer in a moment. My memory tells me that that was in place so that one side could not hold up the other side indefinitely.
Senator Meighen: That is fine. If we do not have a quorum, I am in favour of proceeding as long as there is somebody from each side present.
The Chairman: In order to receive evidence we need two members, one from the government and one from the opposition. That is something that we are adopting under this item.
Mr. Charbonneau: You may hold a meeting with only two members as long as one from each side is present.
The Chairman: That is, to receive evidence.
Mr. Charbonneau: Yes. You cannot make any decisions. There must be a quorum before a decision is made.
The Chairman: You could have a quorum without having both sides present.
Mr. Charbonneau: Yes. It requires only four members of the committee, whether they be from one party or another.
The Chairman: Does that satisfy you, Senator Meighen?
Senator Meighen: Does that mean you could have a quorum and, therefore, a valid meeting without having both sides represented?
The Chairman: Correct.
Senator Meighen: That would mean you could receive evidence without both sides being present?
The Chairman: Yes, if four people are present, but if you only have two, both sides must be represented. These are not rules that I have made up. As I understand it, these are to be found in the Rules of the Senate.
Mr. Charbonneau: Yes.
Senator Forrestall: The practice in the past has been as you suggest.
The Chairman: The clerk will read the appropriate rule.
Mr. Charbonneau: Rule 89 reads as follows:
A quorum is required whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken by a select committee, but any such committee, by resolution thereof, may authorize the chairman to hold meetings to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present.
The rule does not specify that you require both sides to be present when a quorum is achieved.
Senator Meighen: The chair has certainly always respected that. It would be an unfortunate precedent, whether there are two members present or four members present, to go ahead without representatives from both sides, unless by agreement.
The Chairman: The purpose of the ``two'' rule is to deal with a meeting going ahead without a quorum, which is unusual. In order to meet without a quorum, but still allow the committee to adduce evidence, there is an agreement that we will vote only when both sides are represented.
Senator Meighen: I understand that. That is fine with me. You could also have a meeting of four members, which constitutes a quorum, but both sides may not be represented.
The Chairman: That is also correct.
Senator Meighen: I suggest that would be a risky practice.
The Chairman: That is not where a chair would like to go.
Senator Meighen: That is what I wanted to hear the chair say.
Senator Forrestall: What is your intention?
The Chairman: I hope I am never faced with that question, but it is certainly not a practice that this chair would like to adopt.
Senator Forrestall: Perhaps we could have the clerk seek further clarification from the appropriate standing committee of the Senate, because there is a potential conflict.
The Chairman: Absolutely. I take it you would like the clerk to inquire of the Standing Senate Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament.
Senator Meighen: In the meantime, as Senator Banks has suggested, can we move item Nos. 5 through 12 inclusive.
The Chairman: Those in favour?
Senator Lynch-Staunton: I would like to go through all the motions.
The Chairman: We have a request that we go through the motions, Senator Banks.
Would a senator move motion No. 5, please?
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chairman: Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 6 deals with the financial report. Who would care to move that?
Senator Forrestall: I so move.
The Chairman: All agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The next item deals with research staff. Would you care to move that, Senator Atkins?
Senator Atkins: I so move.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The next item relates to the authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chairman: Moved by Senator Banks. I am giving Senator Lynch-Staunton an opportunity to read it.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: In part, the motion reads that the authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk. Does that mean each one individually can commit funds?
The Chairman: That is correct. Normally it goes sequentially. If the chair is not there, then the clerk may call upon the deputy chair. In the event that neither is present, the clerk has the authority to commit funds.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Is that standard for every committee?
The Chairman: It is standard for every committee, sir. Every motion that we have to date, I would describe as boiler plate and has been passed by every committee at its organizational meeting. Sometimes the motions are read aloud. I would be happy to read them aloud if that would help.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: No, that is all right.
The Chairman: Motion No. 9 relates to travel. May I have a mover, please?
Senator Atkins: So moved.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Motion No. 10 deals with the designation of members traveling on committee business. Senator Forrestall.
Senator Forrestall: I will move the motion, but was this issue resolved? It was an issue generally in the last Parliament.
The Chairman: There was no problem with this.
Senator Forrestall: Senator Carney raised it on a number of occasions. She participated in what she understood to be committee business in Vancouver and was not here.
The Chairman: The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure needs to agree that it is committee business. If they agree that it is committee business, it then is listed as official business as opposed to public business.
Her dispute related to which column her name appeared. She was arguing after the fact that it should not have been under public business. It should have been under official business. That would depend upon the minutes of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedures.
Senator Meighen: It would be ex post facto, as we say.
The Chairman: I do not know that. Can she do the work and then approach the committee and ask the committee to make a correction afterwards?
Mr. Charbonneau: Yes.
Senator Banks: However, in respect of an ex post facto situation, the likelihood of receiving approval has been subject to the policies of Internal Economy.
Senator Meighen: Say no more, Senator. I get the drift.
The Chairman: The clerk draws to my attention that it is published in the Journals of the Senate, and the Journals are not corrected after the fact. There is a remote chance that it would be corrected.
Senator Meighen: Unless there is an egregious error.
The Chairman: The Journals are not corrected until the end of a session.
Senator Banks: In any case, in this committee such a question has never been raised.
The Chairman: That is correct. We have not had the problem.
Senator Forrestall has moved motion No. 10. All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Motion No. 11 deals with traveling expenses.
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item No. 12 is the electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Senator Munson: So moved.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Motion No. 13 deals with the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. It is That the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be established to study matters relating to veterans affairs which may be referred to it from time to time by the committee; that the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs consist of five members, three of whom shall constitute a quorum; that the initial membership of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be as follows; that the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be authorized to send for persons, papers and records, whenever required, and to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Dispense.
The Chairman: The question before us is the membership of the committee. If I recall correctly, in the last Parliament, Senator Meighen was in the chair and Senator Day was deputy chair. I believe Senator Atkins was a committee member, as was I. That adds up to four, but I believe there were five members on the committee.
Would all those who were on the committee last time have an interest in serving this time?
Senator Day: Yes. Senator Forrestall attended many of the meetings.
The Chairman: Senator Forrestall, would you like to be on the committee?
Senator Forrestall: I want to be on another committee later on.
The Chairman: I understand.
Senator Forrestall: Sure.
The Chairman: Would it be agreeable to have a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs made up of Senators Meighen, Day, Forrestall, Atkins and myself?
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: When this meeting concludes, it is the intention to have the clerk of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs immediately take the place at the head of the table and call for an election of the chair of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. That will take place when this meeting is adjourned.
Senator Banks: I thought I just moved all of item No. 13.
The Chairman: You did just move it and it was adopted.
Item No. 14 is for information purposes only.
Honourable senators, at this point, with your permission, I will suspend the meeting, move into the smaller room and continue in camera. There we will have an opportunity to discuss our order of reference and the work of the committee.
Senator Meighen: Is it not possible, chair, to hold the organizational meeting for the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs at this point?
The Chairman: This meeting should first be adjourned and then a notice should be sent out that there is will be a meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. I understand that a message has been sent to the appropriate place indicating that we have now adopted our motions. The notice would read that we are proceeding at the end of this meeting.
Senator Day: The five members, since they are all present, can waive the requirement for formal notices to be sent to their offices.
The Chairman: All senators are entitled to attend the meeting, not just the five who are present.
Senator Day: Who is allowed to vote?
The Chairman: Only the members are allowed to vote.
Senator Day: The five who are here?
The Chairman: Yes, sir.
Senator Day: Thank you.
The Chairman: I would suggest that we suspend our meeting and withdraw to the smaller room to meet in camera to discuss the future business of the committee and the order of reference.
The committee continued in camera.