Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of October 7, 2004
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 7, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 11:35 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Cathy Piccinin, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, it is my duty as the clerk of the committee to preside over the election of the chair. I am prepared to receive your nominations to that effect.
Senator Day: I would like to nominate Senator Oliver for the position of chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance.
Ms. Piccinin: Are there any other nominations?
Seeing no other nominations, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Day that the Honourable Senator Oliver be chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt this motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Piccinin: I declare the motion carried, and I invite the Honourable Senator Oliver to assume the chair of this committee.
Senator Donald H. Oliver (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: Thank you for the confidence this vote indicates. I have a few remarks, which I will save to the end in order to move more quickly to the agenda.
The second item on the agenda is the election of a deputy chair. Senator Comeau?
Senator Comeau: I would like to propose Senator Day as deputy chair.
The Chairman: Are there any other nominations? Hearing none, all those in favour? Contrary minded? Abstentions? Carried unanimously. Congratulations, Senator Day.
Senator Day: Thank you. I will not have a speech.
The Chairman: Item No. 3 deals with the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Is anyone prepared to make a motion?
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 4 is the motion to print the committee's proceedings.
Senator Comeau: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Number 5 deals with the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.
Senator Day: I so move. All in favour?
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item No. 6 deals with the financial report, and specifically that the committee adopt the report. This has already been circulated to everyone. As you know, this is the report of the spending from —
Senator Stratton: We are familiar with this.
Senator Comeau: I will move the motion.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item No. 7 deals with research staff.
Senator Stratton: I would move that motion, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Senator Stratton moves that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assist the committee with research analysis. We have Mr. Beaumier here. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Comeau: I do hope Mr. Beaumier will continue to be our researcher.
The Chairman: That is the hope.
Item No. 8 asks for the authority to commit funds.
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Stratton. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item No. 9 deals with travel.
Senator Comeau: I would move that motion.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item No. 10 relates to the designation of members travelling on committee business? Any questions?
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item No. 11 is the motion for the travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 12, electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Senator Comeau: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 13 relates to the time slot for regular meetings. Our slot is Tuesdays at 9:30 a.m. and Wednesdays at 6:15 p.m. Would someone care to move that motion?
Senator Day: That has already been worked out by the whips.
The Chairman: Item No. 14, other business.
Senator Day, I know you have to leave. Is there anything you want to say before you go?
Senator Day: Nothing other than that I look forward to a productive time with you as chair, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The Chairman: If I may, I would like to make a couple of remarks. First, we have a new clerk. I am absolutely delighted that we have one of the finest clerks on Parliament Hill to serve this committee. I would also like to welcome back Mr. Beaumier from the Library of Parliament. They both come very highly recommended. As senators, we are lucky to have such tremendous support for the work we are about to undertake.
I also wish to say that I am absolutely delighted that the former chair, the Honourable Senator Lowell Murray, has agreed to serve on this committee. He has a wealth of experience and knowledge. Senator Murray, we look forward to your help and support. We know you will continue to make an invaluable contribution. Thank you for that.
The work of the committee, as you know, is to review the estimates. We do not adopt. We do many program reviews.
In just a moment, I will ask Mr. Beaumier to tell us what he has heard through the grapevine as to when we might receive the first estimates.
Senator Day and I intend to meet with Sheila Fraser, the Auditor General, as well as with Ms. Maria Barrados of the public service and Reg Alcock, on the machinery of government. After those meetings and after the steering committee has met, we will bring to the next meeting a list of possible subjects that we might consider.
Without further ado, I would call on Mr. Beaumier to tell us what he has heard about possible new revised estimates.
Mr. Guy Beaumier, Researcher, Library of Parliament: You may recall last spring, when the estimates were brought down, we were informed that a be a revised version would be available in June. Of course, we had an election before that could happen. I believe it is the intent of Treasury Board at this time to table tomorrow the revised Main Estimates. At that time, or shortly thereafter, they will also have the plans and priorities, which I believe were not issued in the spring. We are starting the cycle late in the fiscal year, but that normally comes at the beginning of the cycle.
There will be no Supplementary Estimates (A) at this time. We normally do get them at this time. We will simply get the Main Estimates, which should be quite a bundle. We will then have to review them.
I do not know when the supply vote is scheduled for, but it usually follows. Perhaps someone here knows that date. We usually try to complete our interim review before that date. That would be the big item. We have a week off next week.
Senator Murray: They have supply until when?
Senator Day: My recollection is that they have it until the end of December.
Senator Murray: They had a large swatch of supply.
Mr. Beaumier: There is no real supply bill with this Main Estimates.
Senator Murray: No doubt one will come in, but there is no hurry.
Senator Day: It probably takes us to the end of the fiscal year.
The Chairman: We will all watch with great interest to see what is tabled tomorrow.
Mr. Beaumier was explaining to me earlier that this whole concept of ``revised'' is something that is, if I may say, epoch making or new. It is something we will all want to consider.
Do you want to make a short comment on the use of the word ``revised''?
Mr. Beaumier: I do not recall having a revised Main Estimates. Normally, if you revise the estimates, you do it by means of a Supplementary Estimate.
The Chairman: Yes, it was done by way of Supplementary Estimates.
Senator Stratton: Even with a new Parliament?
Mr. Beaumier: Yes. Normally, they are approved for the year, for the whole fiscal year. Even if an election is called it does not affect the estimates. We had an unusual situation here where prorogation interrupted the approval of the estimates.
Senator Murray: First, the explanation that the officials gave when they appeared before us in March was, ``Here are the Main Estimates, but they are being revised in light of certain organizational changes announced at the time of the swearing in of the Martin government.''
Second, because the estimates came in before the budget, a revised set of estimates probably would include certain spending changes consequent upon the budget. For those two reasons, the Main Estimates that we saw are what I casually refer to as a first draft. The authoritative estimates are coming in now. You are all too young to remember this, but in 1962 Mr. Diefenbaker caused the House to be dissolved in April for a June election, and after dissolution there was a currency crisis and an austerity program was imposed. I well recall that Mr. Diefenbaker was reduced from a majority to a minority, as was Mr. Martin this time. A lot of us spent the summer revising the Main Estimates. I do not know whether those estimates had already been tabled. I will have to check. We had to revise the Main Estimates to impose this austerity program in capital spending. It was a very traumatic experience for those of us in departments such as public works, I can tell you that.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, Senator Day has had to leave and there is no Liberal left at the table. It is probably appropriate, since all the business of today's meeting has now been completed, that we adjourn this meeting to the call of the chair. I thank you all for coming here this morning.
The committee adjourned.