Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 13 - Evidence - Meeting of May 3, 2005
OTTAWA, Tuesday, May 3, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 5:10 p.m. to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations generally. Topic: Iraq
Senator Peter A. Stollery (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I will call the meeting to order. As you know, the committee is authorized by the Senate to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations generally, and our witnesses may be interested to learn that we have been working on an Africa project. We have been very busy with that for some months now. However, we want to welcome you.
We have two new senators with us, Senator Nancy Ruth and Senator Dyck, who are joining us today to see how things operate. We welcome them. They are not members yet, but they have the same rights as other senators. The only thing they cannot do is vote.
I will read off the witness's names as I have them on my list: Nassreen Rahem, from the Women's Media and Education Centre in Iraq, from Kurdistan; Surood Mohammed Falil Ahmmad, from the Women's Alliance for Democracy in Iraq, from Karkuk; Ms. Taa'meem Abd-ul-Hussein, from Ockenden International in Iraq, from Amarah; Ms. Ula A. Ibrahim, from the Iraqi Independent Democrats, from Baghdad; and Ms. Zainab H. Salman, from the Research Triangle Institute, also in Baghdad.
We have about 45 minutes at this point. We would like to have an opportunity, as you ladies can appreciate, for the members of the committee to ask questions. I am sure you have something to say to us, and I will start with Ms. Rahem. Keep it reasonably brief because we will try to give everyone an opportunity to speak.
Ms. Nassreen Rahem, Women's Media and Education Centre, Iraq, As an Individual: Thank you very much for receiving us here today. I will only say that we are here to see and to receive information on the different models of federal systems that exist, to make comparisons between the different models and to adapt these models to our country to benefit Iraqi civil society.
Ms. Surood Mohammed Falih Ahmmad, Women's Alliance for Democracy in Iraq, As an Individual: I am from Karkuk. Karkuk is multi-ethnic and multi-religious. After they removed Saddam, it was the first time for me as a Kurd to see that democracy in Karkuk has succeeded, and we want to see the different kinds of democracy here and in the U.K. to compare them with our country.
Ms. Taa'meem Abd-ul-Hussein, Ockenden International, Iraq, As an individual: I am from the south of Iraq, from Amarah, a religious place with religious roots. Our city council was a religious forum. We are making use of Islamic values to respect women's rights.
Ms. Ula A. Ibrahim, Iraqi Independent Democrats, As an individual: My name is Ula Ibrahim. I am a member of the Iraqi independent women's group. Our organization is trying to root out all unfair gender discrimination. I have come here to extend my knowledge about how the policies in different countries work. I will translate this information for my organization and for other women in Iraq.
Ms. Zainab H. Salman, Research Triangle Institute, Iraq, As an individual: I am a women's program director in Baghdad. As director, I am working at the grassroots level, encouraging women to be more involved in political life. I am also chief manager of a Baghdad women's association that aims at training women to be more involved in public life.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. The impression I have — maybe I am the only one, but I do not think so — is that Iraq has not settled down the way some people thought it would after the events that we all know about. It sounds as if there is still some turmoil, which might be a reasonable word to use.
I just read a rather interesting review of five books about Iraq. It explains how little foreigners like me know about Iraq, and the reasons for what seems to be quite a lot of turmoil.
Should we be looking for more turmoil, or is there some chance that it will die down?
Ms. Rahem: Sorry, I want to ask about this word. We do not understand.
The Chairman: Turmoil — movement, violence, war, bad things.
Ms. Salman: Actually, the security circumstance in Iraq, except the north, because they are more settled than in the south, is a very critical situation. We are struggling and suffering from the circumstances.
We had this discussion this afternoon with people we met and we said that these circumstances are caused by the neighbouring countries and most of the terrorists are coming from outside Iraq. We discussed the national resistance. It is just a personal point of view, but I thought that we do not have a national resistance. We have extremists who cause explosions and make bad things happen to innocent people. We hope that the new transitional government will do something about it.
Ms. Ahmmad: There is another group that in Iraq we call Saddam's orphans. They are making trouble inside Iraq because they lost everything. People in Iraq do not respect them, so they decided to make trouble.
The Chairman: This is the Sunni, I suppose?
Ms. Ahmmad: Not just the Sunnis.
Ms. Salman: The Baathists, those who are very well funded by others to do this violence inside Iraq. They are very rich because they stole the fortune of Iraq during Saddam's regime.
Ms. Ahmmad: They represent a small group of the Iraqi people.
Ms. Rahem: There were elections and the level of participation of Iraqis was very high, much more than expected, even in the areas where security was not stable. This gives us an idea that Iraqi people want peace. They are fed up with wars. That is why you see that the negotiation for choosing the cabinet takes more time than was needed. We are optimistic that there will not be another war, but we need time to control the security.
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: I can answer also that Iraq is not settled because America brought the battle into Iraq, because there are Islamic extremists from both Shia and Sunni communities, and also because the Iraqi people do not make use of the diversity to their advantage. Each race is focusing on their own needs without taking care of the other groups' needs.
Ms. Rahem: I am sorry but I do not agree with her. This is not our opinion. It is not the U.S. who brought explosions; they are not the ones who are making explosions now. They did not bring the terrorists there. It is the neighbouring countries around us that do not let us live in peace, because their interests are there. If we are living in peace, they will not have this money. This money will not go to them. That is why they make our country live in war, in order that they get the benefit. You all know who are our neighbours. It is not America who brought us these terrorists.
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: America's existence is still a justification for some extremists for having such a terrorism operation.
The Chairman: We have a difference of opinion.
Ms. Salman: Not a difference, but —
The Chairman: That is fine. We are quite interested.
Senator Grafstein: We are used to democratic disagreement.
Ms. Salman: I want to clarify something, that during Saddam`s regime, Saddam had a very strange policy of helping the neighbouring countries, especially Syria and Jordan. I do not want to mention others. These policies caused these countries to refuse the democratic example that Iraq could be. They are moving their battle with America to our country. There is a very complex relationship between the terrorism and the security situation in Iraq. When these countries lost the funding and the free oil, they sent their people to Iraq to unsettle it.
The Chairman: I recall the beginnings of the Baathist movement in the late 1950s quite well. I think Syria is where it started. It was in Syria that there was this kind of Arab socialist movement. It was considered quite a progressive movement at the beginning. There must have been quite close relations between the Iraqi Baathists and the Syrian Baathists. It went on for a long time.
Ms. Rahem: They are the founders of the Baathist regime. It is the same regime, the same system.
Senator Andreychuk: I want to add my welcome to you to Canada and to the Senate here. I am sorry that we do not have more time to spend. Perhaps on your next visit we will have more opportunities to exchange points of view.
I know that you are working under extreme difficulties, the lack of stability, the lack of infrastructure, a whole new system, but I know that part of your reason for being here is to look at how you can strengthen women, involve them in all of the structures of your society and fight for elimination of discrimination against women. I would be interested to hear from any or all of you how you are going about that task when you have so many other things on your plate.
You are looking at the particular view of women. How are you doing this? It would be interesting to hear your perspectives on this.
Ms. Rahem: I can talk about my experience. We have been liberated since 1991. In my area we have experience of 14 years of freedom. My community is a male-dominated society. We started to think as nationalists. We were working and fighting for our freedom hand-in-hand with men, but when we got our freedom they forgot us. They started to act like men. After five years, a long battle, we realized that we had to have some kind of women's rights. We started to work to make some amendments to our law, which is called personal status law, which is derived from Sharia law. It is totally unjust to women. We have been able to make some amendments, for example, in regard to polygamy. We have changed this law in regard to honour killing, which was giving permission to men to kill their wives or sisters or accuse them of dishonouring the family without any reason.
We made amendments for these. Now there are a large number of women's groups and activists. They speak openly, and we are working to include some human rights articles in the new constitution that will be drafted very soon.
We are working for that. We have created a women's network.
Ms. Salman: With regard to the women's movement, we have been liberated for only two years in spite of all that you mentioned about the security and the critical situation that we passed through. You know that the constitution is about to be written. The women's movement in Baghdad, with the support of the women's movement in the north, is working to establish a committee to ensure that the constitution does not contain articles against women's rights. It is time for women to stand up and take their rights. If we do not stand up for our rights now, the constitution will be written without us. As you mentioned, we are moving slowly, but we are moving toward our goals.
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: I think we can create a bill of rights for women in my city that is derived from Islamic values of respecting women. At the same time, we must make a partition. We must not depend totally on Shari'a law, but we can incorporate Islamic practices that do not create problems in our society.
For example, if women accept polygamy in law, it will be a disaster, because this creates many economic and other problems. We must reach a comprise between Shari'a law and human rights laws.
Senator Nancy Ruth: In Canada, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms came into being in 1982. Sections 15 and 28 deal primarily with equality. In addition to getting provisions into the Constitution, it became necessary to ensure that judges were taught how to interpret the law. There was great fear in Canada that Canadian judges would follow the Americans and base their equality theory on ``sameness,'' that is, that men and women should be treated the same. It would be amazing if men were treated the same as women, and that is not what happened. We stressed ``difference,'' but much work was done teaching judges how to interpret the equality section of the Charter. This was done by establishing a litigation fund to finance court cases in order to stand before judges and help them interpret the law.
Is something like this happening?
Even that is not enough, because our Supreme Court in Canada is not particularly helpful right now to equality seekers, and in this Parliament there is a bill on same-sex marriage, which is the law in Canada, but it is based on being treated ``the same as.''
We have already started to lose the advantage women built on difference over 20 years. What are you planning to do to help with the interpretation of your constitution and how will you maintain the pressure on politicians and judges to give you what you want?
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: When we return to Iraq, each woman will have training in various strategies. We will make use of this training to discuss with women our new ideas for inclusion in the constitution and also to lobby the government through the ministry of women and the Iraqi network of women'snon-governmental organizations. Through this we can make something good.
Ms. Salman: As I mentioned before, as a women's organization network, we are about to establish a commission to sponsor the writing of the constitution. Through this, we can lobby the government on what we want in the constitution.
Also, we have more than 100 women's organization that deal with grassroots awareness of bottom-up power. That will raise the awareness in the public to push for women's rights, especially women who are well educated and are willing to participate in local government.
We will also make use of the women members of Parliament who support women's issue. As well, the women's network will hold a conference for women members of Parliament and of local government to raise the issue of women's rights in the constitution. This is a very important issue now as the constitution is about to be written.
The Chairman: How many elected members of Parliament are women, and how many members of Parliament are there?
Ms. Rahem: We have 89 women, which represents 25 per cent. This is imposed in the code. As well, we have seven women ministers.
The Chairman: How many members of Parliament are there?
Ms. Rahem: There are 274 or 275.
The Chairman: That is interesting.
Senator Nancy Ruth: How you will protect yourselves in front of the judiciary? How will you teach them how to interpret this constitution that you will build?
Ms. Rahem: In Kurdistan, we are calling for secularism, to separate religion from state. This is the first step we must accomplish. We will then make complaints on human rights, and women's rights in particular, and on gender equality. They will misunderstand and misinterpret this. They will ask whether we want to have four husbands, just as men have the right to have four wives. We will ensure that the interpretation is right. Then we will ensure that there is training for the judges, the lawyers and every level of the community. We need a lot of training.
Senator Grafstein: This is quite interesting, refreshing and new to us in this Parliament. I do not think the information that you bring us is something we read in our daily newspapers here. I take it you all agree that there is a great thirst for democracy in Iraq?
Ms. Ahmmad: Let me tell you a short story. The situation in Kirkuk is totally different from other parts of Iraq. We are multi-ethnic and multi-religious. After they removed Saddam, it was like an explosion, and everybody wanted to beat and to kill the other. They thought this was democracy. Now the people are starting to respect each other. One time I was in a taxi. I am Kurdish. I saw the Turkomans. They have an administration and they fly the Turkish flag. I started to forget myself and say, ``Look what they are doing.'' The taxi driver told me, ''We must respect them.'' Then I was ashamed of myself. Really, I must respect who is in front of me. They have the same rights to express themselves. However I want to express myself, they have the same right. Now, I am finding that the people are learning what democracy means and they express it in respectful ways.
Senator Grafstein: Perhaps we could hear from the others. How do people in the south feel?
Ms. Ibrahim: I think an example of our democracy now is our resident is a Kurdish man. That is democracy, I think, that we could have a Kurd in some position in our government.
The Chairman: How many of you are Kurds? Two. Thank you.
Senator Grafstein: Let me move on to one of your topics. You have told us about women's participation in the elected assembly, 89 out of 270, and you have told us that seven of the 30-odd ministers are women. Can you tell us what percentage of the civil service is women, or what your goals are for women in the public service? I am asking about people who work for the government now, not people who are elected to Parliament.
Ms. Salman: I do not have the actual statistical ratio, but in the education ministry, more than 75 per cent of university teachers, lecturers and so on are women. That is because of the Iranian-Iraqi war. Most of the men went to the war and their jobs were given to women and some other people from outside Iraq. However, despite the existence of women in many of the jobs, we did not reach the higher positions, which is critical. The women got jobs, but they did not go to the top, to the positions of leadership. They stayed in the lower jobs. However, in education, I am sure that the percentage is over 70.
Senator Grafstein: What would be the percentages of women in the professions? I assume that there is a high percentage in education, so that is not an area of concern. What about the medical profession? I notice a number of you are professionals yourselves, computer experts and engineers. What percentage, for instance, of women are in engineering?
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: A small percentage of women are engineers because even at the college of engineering, there are Islamic laws — 50 men, 5 women. This is the discrimination in education.
Senator Grafstein: Do not despair. When I went to law school, there was one woman in my class. It was less than 1 per cent. Now, 55 per cent of the law students in Canada are women.
Tell me about women's participation in business. I know that during the Iraq-Iran war, women took over a number of businesses and acted in business.
Ms. Salman: I can tell you that it is a very low percentage, perhaps 1 per cent, because we do not have many jobs or businesses occupied by women. They are very simple jobs that are occupied by women. It is very small.
Senator Prud'homme: Welcome again. I had an opportunity to have an exchange with you earlier today. I offer the same warm welcome to you for your courage and dedication. I am one of those who truly count on women to bring a breath of fresh air.
When I went to Pakistan, the day I arrived to meet Mr. Musharraf he had been expelled from the Commonwealth, so I hung around the streets and I found a woman looking after 2 to 3 million Afghani refugees. They did not receive a penny from the West at that time. Who looked after these refugees? It was women. Two of those who were helping became ministers.
In your discovery of the future you must pay attention to the past, and of course, we know about the atrocities that we are talking about today. You know how much I encourage you to share power. That is Canada. If I were to be excluded from power in Canada as a nationalist, a French Canadian from Quebec, a federalist, I would fight. Since we are not all the same, we have to share. We are all together around the table. If you look around, we are all different.
Is there some knowledge of how these atrocities in Iraq today came to be? It is too easy to point out this one and that one and, especially, say Saddam Hussein became a monster, but when I went there before and after the Iran war, he was not a monster to the West. He was well armed, well provided with everything, and suddenly it seems that we in the West forgot about all that. Is that also part of your reflection, or do you just zero in on actual difficulties and how to cope in the future?
Ms. Salman: I think the West created Saddam Hussein during the Iraqi-Iranian war just for their benefit. During this period of the Iranian-Iraqi war that you mentioned, because he was backed by the West, he took the men to the war and also provided the opportunity for women to participate in education. He did something for women and for the people of Iraq during this period.
After that, after the attacking of Kuwait and the revolution in the south and the north, he became the country's leader because the West liberated the north and gave him the power in the south. They did this for the same reasons that they backed him during the Iraqi-Iranian war, because the south had the majority of Shiites and the religious groups and so on. I think Saddam became the leader because he killed his people for the sake of the West. Then the West just decided that his role in the play was finished and he must leave.
This is just a personal view. This is my reflection.
The Chairman: That is one point.
Ms. Rahem: I want to say that Saddam had always been there. He was not created from nothing. From the very beginning, when he came to power, he was a monster, but the West did not want to see him.
He started his destruction of the border villages in Kurdistan in the 1970s, and then he started the war between Iraq and Iran. When they felt that he was dangerous to their states also, that is when they took action against him. Otherwise, he had ordered chemical bombardments in 1988, he invaded Kuwait, and before that, he destroyed 4,500 villages in my province. He had been there always.
Ms. Ahmmad: I have the same opinion. I want to add that we tried many times to remove Saddam, but it was very difficult for us. In 1991, there was an uprising all over Iraq, from the south to the north. We liberated many parts of Iraq, but only for a few days, especially in Kirkuk, where it was just 10 days. When Saddam returned, he killed thousands and thousands of the people. I witnessed it. I lost three of my family and I was shot twice; we lost everything at that time.
Senator Di Nino: It is certainly an interesting group of witnesses and it brings a different perspective to our study on Africa.
We have been looking at the issue of Africa, and I bring that up for a particular reason. During the deliberations, we heard regularly from witnesses, both Africans and non-Africans, NGOs and government agencies that they are looking to the women of Africa to continue to build the civil society that they want.
I would imagine, particularly after meeting you ladies here today, that that may be also an initiative in Iraq. I was wondering if you represent, in effect, a movement in Iraq that is looking to the women of Iraq to help build a civil society in that country. Is this happening there now?
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: Yes, it is true, because women are not only in the civil society. Women started to have responsibility for their livelihoods since the embargo. Previously, we started building our country. You can see that in a family of a few members; this family cannot live without all its members working, especially women.
Just a few days after Saddam's fall, civil society and non-governmental organizations were established in my city among men, men and women, and also women themselves. The women's organizations were established by the international organizations that entered Iraq, and also by the political parties, independent women's groups and religious institutions. Each entity wanted women's groups to support them.
Ms. Rahem: Women being the first victims of wars, you can guarantee, and I can assure you that they are the first ones who want to rebuild Iraq and to live in peace. There are many women's groups. They are working hard to create civil society organizations, and there is another factor. The ratio of women to men is seven to one, so they are more than half of the community. They have a duty, and there are campaigns for raising awareness so this will all help. They want it; there is this ambition in their hearts to live in peace.
Ms. Ibrahim: All women now want to participate innon-government organizations; they want to raise their awareness and know their rights. When the election came about, all women went and voted. For example, my mother and I, when the morning came, were the first persons to go and vote.I saw in our neighbourhood all the women went before the men.
Senator Di Nino: I should acknowledge that I think the world looked at Iraq during those elections with amazement. Certainly I can probably speak for everyone here when I say that we were pleasantly surprised at the turnout and the fact that so many Iraqis participated in the process, which was, in some circles at least, not expected. Congratulations to all of you.
I have another question related to my first question. Is there a united movement in Iraq of women from all backgrounds to work together to achieve these objectives of leading, of helping to rebuild and to create this new civil society? Is there a united movement, or are there frictions between the different sectors of the society?
Ms. Rahem: There are movements. There is networking among all Iraqis. I know about one network that includes many civil organizations throughout Iraq, from the north to the south. Also in my area, in Kurdistan, there are two or three networks among the women's organizations. There is an ambition to work together. Even with those different points of view, we are looking forward, and we are optimistic about it.
Ms. Salman: I am sure that it is not one united movement in Iraq. Rather, it is many small united organizations. In Baghdad, we have an Iraqi network that is comprised of more than 88 organizations. It is well known to and respected by the government. The organization mentioned by Ms. Rahem will take the responsibility of leading the women's movement from the middle and the south and transferring the point of view of women to the government. That is a large responsibility for them to take on.
Senator Mahovlich: Welcome to Canada. You came to the right place. In the year 2000, Canada was the number one democracy in the world; so we set the example here. You should take a close look at our government. Almost 50 per cent of senators are women; and senators are appointed. There is a nice balance.I think you will learn a great deal here.
You mentioned America. Who created Osama bin Laden?
Ms. Ahmmad: America.
The Chairman: There you go; at least he is not an Iraqi.
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: Osama bin Laden is Islamic, but all his activities are against the real Islam; he is an extremist. All Muslims reject bin Laden, who was created neither by America nor by Islam. I do not know who created him, but he is not 100 per cent Islamic.
Senator Mahovlich: Will we ever eliminate terrorism as long as Osama bin Laden is free? Can there be an end to terrorism?
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: If we have a stable government and good security, then there will be no Osama bin Laden in Iraq. When Iraqis see any terrorism operations, they will search for the stranger. We have the sense that we will not let any terrorists live among us, provided we have one united, stable Iraqi government.
Senator Mahovlich: Once you have that stable government, will America leave Iraq?
Ms. Abd-ul-Hussein: I believe that will be so. Our government chooses peace with America, not to fight America. We must take that path and be patient until they leave. If they do not leave, then perhaps you will see a third world war.
The Chairman: That sums it up.
Ms. Rahem: I want to say that Osama bin Laden is a person who represents a symbol. We have many Osama bin Ladens in the neighbouring countries of Iraq. If we are able to maintain peace and security and make them understand that this is not their country and that they should leave us in peace, then we will no longer have the Osama bin Laden symbol.
The Chairman: I understand that.
Senator Corbin: I have a brief preamble. You have elected a transitional government and things are moving along slowly. Eventually, Parliament will pass new laws and adapt old laws. Currently, you have a military occupier running many areas; you have a transitional civil government; and you have religious law that is extremely important to some groups and some regions. Under what legal system is the country operating? Before, you had Saddam Hussein's pronouncements on how things had to be. Is there still a semblance of a legal regime in the country or has everything been broken? How is the country run now?
Ms. Rahem: It is temporary and we are living in a transitional time. We are looking forward to creating a model of federalism, and that is why we are here. Yesterday and today, we looked at models of federal systems that could work in Iraq. We also looked at the U.K. model. We are optimistic that we can create a similar system in Iraq.
Senator Corbin: Is it chaos now?
Ms. Rahem: No. In the north there is proper security and government. However, in the middle and southern regions of Iraq there is some chaos because of these extremists. However, there is hope for this new Iraqi government. It is still in transition, but we are all working hard to share the powers and to create a federal system.
Ms. Salman: Regarding your question, since the fall of Saddam's regime we have had transitional law that was written by the government council. It provides the basis for laws that run all of Iraq. As well, we have the previous law that was written by Saddam Hussein's regime in respect of the management of the legal situation in Iraq, which we are following up. The old law and the transitional law will provide the basis for the writing of the new constitution. Does that answer your question?
Senator Corbin: Yes, thank you.
The Chairman: It is important to emphasize that the election has resulted in a constituent assembly that will write the constitution for Iraq. Is that correct? They have not written it yet but are in the process of doing so.
Ms. Salman: That is correct. The transition law was written and issued by the government council and we will use that as a basis for the new constitution.
Ms. Rahem: We had a special law after the fall of Saddam — it is also called transitional law. Everything is transitional now.
The Chairman: On behalf of the members of the committee, I thank you for the lively and interesting session.
It is important to point out that Iraq has great variations, from the Kurdish areas in the north to the great city of Baghdad, with its complex society. How many people live in Baghdad?
Ms. Salman: I live in Baghdad.
The Chairman: How many people in total live in Baghdad?
Ms. Salman: There are approximately 6 million people.
The Chairman: Baghdad is a city of 6 million people with all of the complexities that that obviously gives rise to.
The committee continued in camera.