Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 13 - Evidence - Meeting of May 4, 2005
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 4, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 4:10 p.m. to examine the development and security challenges facing Africa; the response of the international community to enhance that continent's development and political stability; and Canadian foreign policy as it relates to Africa.
Senator Peter A. Stollery (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I call the meeting to order. I wish to point out that the committee is continuing its examination of the development and security challenges facing Africa, the response of the international community to enhance that continent's development and political stability, and Canadian foreign policy as it relates to Africa.
[Translation]
We will be hearing today about the present situation in Sudan, as described by Ms. Asha El-Karib. Ms. El-Karib is in Canada for the 30th anniversary of Inter Pares. I wish to thank that organization and Ms. Anna Paskal for their precious cooperation.
[English]
I might add that Inter Pares has provided the committee with other witnesses, which have been extremely enriching for the committee.
Ms. El-Karib is Director and Co-founder of the Gender Centre for Research and Training, as well as the Sudan Program Manager of ACORD, the Agency for Co-operation in Research and Development. She is engaged in research and policy development on issues of priority to women such as health, equality, and civil rights.
Welcome to the Senate of Canada. Nowhere in my information does it tell me where you have come from. Are you based in Khartoum? I am assuming that that is the case. Please proceed, Ms. El-Karib.
Ms. Asha El-Karib, Director and Program Manager, Gender Centre for Research and Training and ACORD (Agency for Co-operation in Research and Development), Sudan: Honourable senators, I would like first to take this opportunity to thank you very much for giving me the chance to talk about my country and to talk about the movement of the Sudanese women in particular. I find that very encouraging and I am delighted to have this opportunity.
I would like to talk a bit about the Sudan generally and then go into detail about the situation of women and the challenges we face and what we expect from the international community and from Canada in particular. I hope I will do that in 10 minutes.
The Sudan is the largest country in Africa with an area of around 2.5 million square kilometres and a population of 32 million people. The country is surrounded by nine countries from the northwest and the south and the Red Sea from the east. The location of the Sudan at the crossroads in Africa has played a vital role in the country's history and in its current situation. Sudan will continue to play that role in the future.
Sudan enjoys enormous diversity. The climate ranges from a rainless, dry desert in the far north of the country to a wet, densely covered green in the south. There is diversity also in the resource base; we have a vast area of arable land, grazing pastures, rivers, wetlands, mountains, wildlife, forests, oil and minerals. There is diversity in the languages we speak, with more than 400 dialects throughout the country. We have four or five main ethnic groups but also hundreds of different tribes. We have Islam, Christianity and other local religions. Despite this rich diversity, the poverty level exceeds 90 per cent. The impoverishment process has been aggravated over the last two decades through the adoption of the structural adjustment programs, continuous privatization and, of course, the militarization of the economy.
Colonized by the British through a condominium rule with the Egyptians, the Sudan got its independence in 1956 through a bloodless civil struggle. Since then, the country has been caught in a vicious cycle of short-lived democratically elected governments for two or three years followed by a rather long military totalitarian dictatorship; the latest of these is the current regime which has been in place since 1989.
Before the dawn of independence in 1955, the country went through the longest ever civil strife in the recent history between the north and south. We lost more than two million lives because of that struggle. There was also a huge displacement of people; probably we have the largest number of internally displaced people in the world, around 4 million people. There are about half a million refugees living in the diaspora. The war also caused irreversible damage to the environment and the infrastructure and a lack of trust between the peoples of Sudan. Through serious and enormous efforts by the Sudanese and the international community, including Canada — Canada's role was significant and very much appreciated by the Sudanese — a peace agreement was reached early this year, ending the killing and hopefully paving the road for peace and development in Sudan.
However, another conflict erupted in Darfur in western Sudan, causing yet more damage. Two million people from Darfur are now displaced; there are some 200,000 refugees. We do not have a clear figure for how many people died from the war in Darfur, but it is quite a significant number.
There are also signs of potential conflict in other parts of the country. Those signs are serious and should be monitored. This is general information about the Sudan.
I will turn now to the democratic movement of women in Sudan, our challenges and our strategies.
The Sudanese women's movement has a history that datesback to the 1940s when women started to organize, mainly around social issues but also contributing to the struggle against independence. By 1952, a powerful Sudanese women's union was established and the fight for women's rights took shape with the focus on women's political rights. By the early 1960s, Sudanese women enjoyed the right to vote and the right to be elected, which was at that time a precedent in Africa and in the Arab world. By 1965, we had a woman elected in Parliament through a free election. More rights were subsequently gained, such as equal pay for equal work and rights to pension, maternity leave and so on.
However, a setback and retreat started in the late 1970s. It gained momentum in 1983 and escalated until 1989. The Sudanese women's union was dismantled, as were all women's organizations. In fact, all civil society organizations, trade unions, and political parties were banned. Under cover of what was called public interest, women were removed from their jobs. Employment of women in certain areas stopped and the physical movement of women was restricted. Women activists and politicians were detained, harassed and sometimes tortured.
Despite that, the democratic women's movement started to reorganize and to reactivate itself as of the mid-1990s. Creatively, and keeping a low profile at the beginning, women's groups emerged at all levels working on issues of poverty alleviation, women's cooperatives and so on. Later, women's advocacy groups started also to formulate research and advocacy organizations such as the gender centre, women's networks, women's peace groups and women's solidarity groups. The first movement that actually worked in an organized way for peace was established in the mid-1990s through the civil society women's network for peace.
Through the work of those groups, certain observations around the status of women in Sudan have been verified. Among those facts are that women and children are the most affected by the war in many ways, including trauma, loss of life and assets, violence against women, and so on. The number of households headed by women and girls has increased, as has the burden of breadwinning.
The process of impoverishment is manifested more in women. Cuts in health expenditures affected women's reproductive health severely. Privatization of education resulted in fewer girls going to school. The concentration on cash cropping and cropping for export forced women, who are usually responsible for food security for families, to move to marginal lands that are less productive and harder to cultivate. The expansion of mechanized, large-scale agriculture degraded the environment, and women are forced to struggle more to fetch water and fuel wood, which in turn causes more degradation to the environment. The privatization process and the shrinking of the public sector render women unemployed or force them to move to the informal sector where wages are lower and there are more risks and uncertainties.
Violence against women is increasing and taking new shapes and faces. Domestic violence is increasing and sexual abuse and rape cases are frequent, with no legal recourse. That has been clearly demonstrated in the situation in Darfur.
Certain laws and regulations were adopted mainly to restrict the women's movement. Women have been banned from working in certain jobs or at certain places. Dress codes have been imposed. Emergency courts have been created where people, mainly women, are tried without the right of representation by a lawyer or any defence. The government of Sudan is one of only two or three governments that have not yet ratified CEDAW, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women.
Under such conditions, the democratic movement started to work at different levels. At the level of public education and awareness raising, we are mobilizing women around women's rights and women's conditions by using training, dialogue, networking among women's groups, legal education and employment programs. Another area in which we are working is policy and advocacy, including conducting research to provide factual information on women's situations, lobbying to change policies, coordinating with other civil society organizations to exert pressure on the government, and connecting with international actors for solidarity and support.
The third strategy is to work on strategic issues such as women's political participation, engendering democracy in the process and addressing the underlining the causes of poverty. That is very important because poverty in Sudan is not an absolute poverty. It is relative poverty and it has a lot to do with the distribution of resources and wealth.
We are also working on the issues of opposing religious fundamentalism, violence against women, female genital mutilation, peace building, resistance to war and violence, and participation in the current processes of peace agreements such as the drafting of the constitution and advocating stopping the violence in Darfur and other areas.
Sudanese women constitute 51 per cent of the population, yet illiteracy among women is more than 80 per cent, compared to the average illiteracy rate in Sudan of 60 per cent. There are also many disparities between rural and urban areas. Only about 30 per cent of Sudanese women enjoy medical care during pregnancy or delivery.
Women are the breadwinners of their families, as 70 per cent of the labour force in agriculture is women. However, their share in decision-making structures is minimal and their control over resources is hardly visible.
In conclusion, although the international community, including Canada, has already contributed to the peace- building process in Sudan, we in civil society expect more from such willing partners, particularly in addressing the root causes of poverty and conflict in Sudan. Enough is done on addressing the effects of conflict in terms of humanitarian aid and assistance, but little is done in terms of addressing the root causes of conflict and advocating a holistic approach to the issues in Sudan. Rather, a regional approach is being taken. War in the south ended but another war in the west has erupted, and so we are expecting more potential conflicts in other parts of Sudan.
The whole issue of public education on peace and building a peace culture in Sudan is important. There must be investment in the Sudanese people to become responsible citizens through a process of democratization and through the promotion of a peace culture. The Sudanese have lived the past two decades in a state of militarization and a culture of conflict. We need support through a civil society initiative. I will respond to your questions now.
The Chairman: We have with us today the Canadian representative to Sudan, Senator Jaffer. First I will call on Senator Prud'homme.
Senator Prud'homme: Canadians should be more sympathetic to the needs of Sudan: we do not have a multiplicity of official languages and yet we have debated the issue of two official languages since Canada came into existence. In Sudan there are hundreds of languages, dialects, religions and ethnicities, and so we understand how difficult it must be. We are sympathetic.
Many years ago in my university days I studied Sudan, and we called it the breadbasket of the world, like the province of Saskatchewan here, which produces most of the wheat for the world. If well planned, it was possible for Sudan to provide almost anything that the Middle East and beyond might need. Is that still the case? Is it still possible for the modern Sudan, if assisted in the right way, to be the breadbasket of the entire region once again? Perhaps I should say ``the provider of food industries'' rather than ``breadbasket'' because of the composition of the country. How could the oil of Sudan be better redistributed to bring wealth to Sudan? We have a great interest in this.
In respect of women, I have given up on the leadership of men, and it is my hope that the Senate will be comprised of 53 women and 52 men; the Prime Minister of Canada has that option and he should take it. I believe in the power of women because they have a different approach and sensibility.
Ms. El-Karib: Yes, I believe there is hope for Sudan and it is that hope that keeps the civil society in Sudan going. I know that there are many challenges but Sudan still has good potential for agricultural and animal production. That potential has not been explored to its limit. Unfortunately, there was considerable bad planning in agriculture in Sudan so productivity has been very low. There has been much conflict over Sudan's natural resources between the people working in agriculture and those raising and grazing animals. That is the direct result of bad planning.
Developing a new plan for agriculture in Sudan is important. Yes, Sudan was once called the breadbasket for the Middle East and other parts of the world. Making agriculture a priority again in terms of investment in agriculture and in farmers means also investing in good planning for agriculture. That could not be done separately from the overall issue of democratization in Sudan; democratization will help people to participate in the development and implementation of better agricultural policies. Currently, there is no participation by the farmers' unions, and all unions are appointed by the government. The unions are generally allied with the government rather than accountable to the people.
This has something to do with the shift to oil. When oil was discovered in Sudan there was a quick shift in the whole economy of the country from reliance on agriculture to reliance on oil. However, the oil revenues have not changed the quality of life of the Sudanese people. We have not seen oil revenues translate into improvements in health services or education or infrastructure. In fact, there is a debate about where oil revenues end up in Sudan. We believe that much of the oil revenues has been invested in the militarization process and other amounts have gone to private investments. Unfortunately, the oil revenues are not reflected in improvements to the lives of the ordinary people in Sudan.
I thank you for your comment in respect of women. I too believe in the power of women, but the representation of women in Sudan remains at a minimum. We have 10 per cent representation in the current parliament, which is an improvement over the past, but Sudan's parliament remains undemocratic and most of the women are appointed.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in this committee today. I want to thank Ms. El-Karib for being here. I want my colleagues to know that she is an extremely brave woman.
In our great country, we do not have to take the risks that you take every day. I welcome you back to our country and salute the work you do. It takes a very strong woman to continue to do your work. My colleagues and I want to thank you. You put your life in danger many days. Thank you very much for being so strong, and for appearing before us.
We all know that the issue of Sudan has been 50 years of war. Since 1956 there has been some kind of war in the south. My colleagues here are very much aware of what is happening in Darfur.
In my last trip to the Sudan, I went to the east. Please tell us what the situation is like in the east of Sudan. When I was there, people were saying it was another Darfur in the making. It would be useful to me and my colleagues if you could tell us what the present situation is there.
Ms. El-Karib: Thank you, Senator Jaffer. You remain an inspiration to the women of Sudan. We talk about you all the time when we want the energy to do our work.
I am one of those who think that the Sudan problem has to be taken holistically. When people were talking about north and south Sudan, we kept criticizing that approach. In Sudan, there is a strong dichotomy between the centre and the periphery. The peripheries of Sudan are very marginalized and the people in the remote areas are secluded. Decision making is dominated by a group of elites in the centre of the country.
Eastern Sudan is a region in Sudan that is populated by an ethnic group that is little represented in the central government or even in the state government in eastern Sudan. It is a part of the country where the services are very poor, with bad infrastructure, high rates of malnutrition, the highest rates of tuberculosis in Sudan, and the lowest family size in the whole country.
The situation in eastern Sudan is serious. The people in there started to mobilize and organize themselves and to approach the different actors — the government in Khartoum and even actors outside — to demand their rights for a share of the wealth of the country, and also to draw attention to the situation in eastern Sudan as a region and an area by itself.
There is a very active movement within the youth of eastern Sudan these days, who are not traditionally affiliated to the old parties in eastern Sudan and are not necessarily part of the Beja Congress, which is a very active political faction. Therefore, the movement of the youth of eastern Sudan is to be observed. They are not talking about violent solutions at this point in history. They are not talking about taking up arms or becoming violent. In fact, they are talking about learning the lessons from Darfur. They say that the Darfurians have ended up killing themselves. The Beja population is already very small. We will not go into that. We would like peaceful negotiation, but we are not ready to compromise our demands. This is a potential threat. They are not talking about violence right now, but they can be used or mobilized by others who may have an interest in violence and in violent solutions.
However, there is inaction on the part of the government regarding the issue of eastern Sudan, and the government is still trying to undermine the idea that there is any potential conflict in eastern Sudan. The government is not even responding to the riots that happened several months ago, during which 27 people were killed by government soldiers. They are not even trying to be accountable for that. They are not pursuing the issue further. The government is repeating the same scenario as in Darfur by ignoring what is happening until it is too late.
I have worked a lot in eastern Sudan. Eastern Sudan is now an area of potential conflict. Unless something is done very quickly to contain it, we will witness the third conflict very soon in Sudan.
The Chairman: I have a question of clarification for the benefit of the members and myself. When you say eastern Sudan, I am thinking north of the Ethiopian border and Port Sudan. Are we talking about eastern Sudan south of Port Sudan to the Ethiopian frontier, or eastern Sudan north of Port Sudan to the Egyptian frontier?
Ms. El-Karib: We are talking about the area from the Egyptian border down the Red Sea coast to the Ethiopian and Eritrean border and including Port Sudan and Kassala as well. That is the eastern part of the country.
The Chairman: Referring to Darfur, a Sudanese told me that part of the problem is in the region of El Fasher in Darfur where there is a spillover of people who come from Chad. Is it correct that there is a spillover of tribal people who go back and forth across the border between Chad and Sudan?
Ms. El-Karib: Yes, that is right. However, it has to be understood within the context of Darfur itself, where the same tribe lives in Sudan and Chad. The borders between Sudan and Chad are not like real borders. Part of the same family lives in Chad and part of it lives in Sudan. The movement is natural.
The Chairman: I understand that. I wondered if that was a factor in all of this.
Ms. El-Karib: It is an issue that must be considered.
Senator Di Nino: It is an honour for us, as Senator Jaffer has said, to have you here to give us your wisdom and share some experiences.
The horrible conflict that has been going on in Darfur for so long must have had some consequences, particularly for women. I wonder if you could share with us whether, in your opinion, the conflict has really ended and whether peace is really achievable. We hear that there is some reoccurrence of potential conflict. Would you tell us whether we will see the light of day, or is there still a serious problem?
Ms. El-Karib: I would like to believe that peace is achievable. However, I think also that the warring parties, the Government of Sudan and the opposition in Darfur, have to be supported and pushed. The Government of Sudan, in particular, has to be pushed to be serious in terms of negotiation in Darfur.
The war in Darfur may be taking a different momentum, a different level, but it is still going on. The situation of the people in Darfur, particularly the women, is bad. Women are facing the daily challenge of providing for their families within a very hostile environment, particularly with regard to violence against women and sexual violence against women. That issue is not properly addressed. The government is still denying that it happens. Two or three weeks ago, the Minister of Health denied that any systematic rape has happened, despite the confirmation from Amnesty International and from local organizations. The government's denial means that it is not ready to take any measures to stop the violence against women or to make those who are responsible accountable.
On the other hand, while the international community is very much involved in the provision of humanitarian assistance, very few really consider the issue of violence against women or provide assistance, whether trauma counselling or alternatives for those women because now women are raped when they go out to fetch water or fuel. Few resources are available for women from the international community.
If I am not mistaken, even Canada's support to Sudan in Darfur follows that distribution pattern: a lot of money is allotted for humanitarian assistance, but very little money is allotted for issues that affect the people themselves, particularly women facing violence against women.
Senator Di Nino: Has the international community responded effectively in dealing with this issue, in your opinion? Have the United Nations and the EU and other international bodies responded effectively to the problems that exist in the Sudan and particularly in Darfur?
Ms. El-Karib: There has been a magnificent response to the issues of Darfur, to the humanitarian needs of the people in Darfur for food, water, shelter and health, but not to the issue of violence against women in particular.
Senator Di Nino: I do not want to lead you, but some of us have opined in speeches and in presentations in the Senate that the UN, in particular, and generally the world have failed miserably at addressing the seriousness of the problem other than to throw money at it, which as you said probably does not resolve the issue properly. That is the point I was trying to make. I got it on the record so I will not ask you to comment unless you wish to.
I did want to ask you another question: with regards to the Canadian aid that is coming, could you give us your thoughts on whether we are directing it in the proper way? Is the aid we are sending helpful and is it reaching those most in need? If our aid is not reaching its target, how should we change what we are doing so that it would better impact on the problems that exist in Darfur and generally in the Sudan? I am talking about Canada because that is where we can express an opinion that hopefully will be heard.
Ms. El-Karib: Three or four months ago, I gave a presentation before some international organizations working in Sudan, challenging them on the approach they are using to address issues in Darfur. I was talking on behalf of the women's movement and asking those organizations how much is really spent on the problems in Darfur. When you see the international figure that is spent in Darfur and you look at the impact of that aid, it is very difficult to relate the figure to the reality of what is happening in Darfur. I was challenging them on how much of that money is actually geared towards or reaches the people in Darfur, and how much is spent on overhead and on supporting the staff of the international communities. How much of that money goes to issues like violence against women, and how much is being invested in counselling and education and so on?
I was not given a straight answer. However, it was clear for all of us that the non-humanitarian issues are not really addressed in Darfur. That is serious, and it relates to your second question. Although the humanitarian needs are important, I think to some extent that now they are stabilized. In fact, now we are worried because the camps in Darfur are attracting people who are not directly affected by the war, because in the camps there is a steady supply of food and shelter and so on. We are also very worried about creating dependence, because of the experience with the internally displaced people of the south, most of whom are now resisting the process of going back and becoming independent and working for their food.
This is serious in Darfur. Traditionally the people of Darfur are quite independent; the women of Darfur are very independent and hard-working. Now we are creating a culture of dependency within the internally displaced people without providing, as I said, alternatives, without investing in the people themselves so that they can decide what they want to do.
I recommend supporting initiatives of local groups and civil society organizations. It is very important that the international community not work directly with the people of Darfur. It is important to have this vehicle so that civil society is strengthened and empowered and can legitimately address needs. The civil society is closer to the community than the international community. In that way, the community is not manipulating the international organizations in ways that are not beneficial. I see strengthening civil society and working with civil society as a solution.
Senator Corbin: Is there freedom of speech in Sudan? I have taken note of the relaxed way in which you speak your mind to this committee.
Ms. El-Karib: We are still working under what is called emergency law in Sudan. That law was established in 1989 when this government came into power, and under emergency law there is no freedom of speech, per se. There is freedom in a way that is interpreted by the government. It depends on who decides.
Lately, through the struggle of the people of Sudan, the struggle of civil society itself, and through many sacrifices by the people of Sudan, people are gaining those rights. They are actually taking those rights. They are taking the freedom to speak, although hey face risk because of that.
People like me are frequently interrogated by security. We are frequently summoned by security. Sometimes our organizations are closed or documents are confiscated. However, this is how we have to proceed. We must challenge the government, because the government claims that its performance on human rights is improving and that it is giving more space to civil society. We use that space and ask our international counterparts and international solidarity groups to support us on issues that jeopardize the freedom of people.
Senator Corbin: I suppose that the press is controlled by the military government as well, that nothing is printed that does not go by someone's desk.
In your written statement you qualified the Sudanese women's union as a powerful union. If I understand correctly, you now operate under the guise of the democratic women's movement. Does that movement have any legal recognition or status? I conclude that the Sudanese women's union did have official recognition or status. Do you currently enjoy such status? I suppose you are not an underground movement, either.
Ms. El-Karib: When you translate the names of the organizations to English, they are almost the same. There is now a union that is affiliated with the government, and I am not referring to that. I am referring to the Sudanese women's union that was dismantled in 1989. It is not now working according to the law.
The democratic movement is a group of women's organizations. One of them is the Gender Centre for Research and Training. We are not one organization; we are an umbrella of organizations including non-governmental organizations, research groups, community-based organizations and some women's networks. These organizations comprise the democratic movement and we share a minimum agenda and minimum principles. The most important of them is the issue of democracy and equality for women. That is the basis of our common cause.
The Sudanese women's union, as I said, was dismantled. It has not been operating for quite a long time and most of its leaders are either no longer in Sudan or are not working. However, recently the Sudanese women's movement is making a comeback. It is no longer the most powerful union, but it is coming back slowly.
Senator Corbin: You told us that women have been appointed to the military regime that governs the country. Do you have any working relationships with these people?
Ms. El-Karib: Until two years ago, we did not have much of a relationship with women within the government. We now work together in some areas, particularly on issues of participation by women in the implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement. It is through those women that we can negotiate with the government on the implementation of the peace agreement. Through those women we are now trying to find a means of influencing the constitution of Sudan, which has been drafted.
We also involve them in a program for engendering democracy in Sudan. We invite them to workshops. They are not always responsive, but there are now some shared areas where we come together and discuss women's issues in general.
The Chairman: I would not want to put words in your mouth, but when you spoke about aid there may have been a touch of criticism about some of the aid groups. Would you like to give us the benefit of your wisdom as to what Canada should do? There are two elements: there is the nation-wide women's movement in Sudan and then there is the particular problem that we are all aware of in Darfur.
Ms. El-Karib: After the Oslo meeting on the Joint Assessment Mission with the donors, there was a comment that the women of Sudan had made their position very clear during that meeting in Oslo. However, women's issues are not a priority at this time of history. This is one area where Canada could help. We think women's issues are always a priority. They become more of a priority in situations where women are the most affected by the conflict. They have become more of a priority when the place of women is not very well addressed in the comprehensive peace agreement. The gender centre has provided a critical analysis for the peace agreement from a gender perspective. We believe that the peace agreement has completely ignored the issue of gender and gender balance.
Canada can help significantly in supporting the democratization process in Sudan and the way women see democracy in Sudan. We see democratization as a process that challenges the whole issue of sexism and gender relations in the country. There are initiatives in Sudan that could be supported.
Canada can help significantly in terms of public education about the peace process, particularly in northern Sudan. The people of Sudan are somewhat indifferent with regard to the peace agreement mainly because most of them are not aware of the implications and the process of the peace agreement. A public awareness campaign around the comprehensive peace agreement would supplement the role that Canada has already played with the Intergovernmental Authority on Development (IGAD) and with the Africa Union and also the contribution to the ICC and the contribution to Oslo. Canada has been very active in that area, but it is not active inside Sudan in terms of the people of Sudan themselves and public education around the peace agreement.
Senator Jaffer said she visited eastern Sudan as a potential area for conflict in Sudan. I ask, will we wait until that conflict erupts in eastern Sudan before we can do something about it? This is also in line with Canada's policy of addressing the root causes of conflict in Sudan, and that should happen before the conflict erupts rather than after it erupts.
The Chairman: For the benefit of my colleagues and myself, when you talk about the Oslo Agreement and the peace agreement, I gather that are you talking about the agreement that settled the civil war between the southern regions and the rest of the country. There is no peace agreement that I know of in the Darfur region. That is the agreement we are talking about, correct?
Ms. El-Karib: Yes, the comprehensive peace agreement.
The Chairman: I know you said that the eastern region comprises from the south of Egypt down to Ethiopia, to Eritrea. In Toronto, we have a large Eritrean community. I am aware of Eritrea and the problems they have with Ethiopia, but I did not know that Eritreans had very much in common with the other peoples up to the Egyptian frontier in eastern Sudan. I can imagine that in the southern Sudan there is a religious issue and different kinds of people. You say that we should be there before conflict breaks out. Could you describe the problem?
Ms. El-Karib: In my opening comments I said that the location of Sudan is part of the issue. The fact that we are neighboured by nine countries is a problem. We share a large border with Eritrea. Kassala is the capital of Kassala State, only 13 kilometres from the border of Eritrea. Throughout history Sudan has hosted the Eritrean and also the Ethiopian refugees. There is an issue here because most of the refugees are now Sudanese and they live inside Sudan and they also enjoy the benefits of being refugees. They have dual status. You could not differentiate them because they are from the same tribe. It is a resource issue here, sharing resources and services in border towns that are themselves suffering from marginalization from the centre and from lack of resources. The competition for resources and services is strong in eastern Sudan, particularly because most Eritrean refugees do not live in camps. They share the towns with the Sudanese people in that area.
I do not fully agree that the issue of southern Sudan was originally religious. Religion came later, at the stage when this government raised the flag of Islamization of Africa. Originally, and I think still, the issue of Sudan is the sharing of wealth and power; dominant governments in the centre do not really address the needs of the refugees, whether in southern or eastern Sudan or in Darfur.
Senator Corbin: I am not sure I understood. In response to the chairman's two-pointed question about what Canada can do to help, you mentioned the lack of awareness in the north surrounding the peace agreement. Would you be more explicit? I am not sure that I appreciate the point you were trying to make there. When you say ``the north,'' are you talking about the north of Sudan or the north as opposed to north-south relations?
Ms. El-Karib: I am sorry about the confusion. I was referring to northern Sudan and its people.
Senator Corbin: How can we immerse ourselves in making the people of that area more aware of the peace agreement? What are you suggesting? To begin with, you do not seem to be enjoying freedom of the press.
Ms. El-Karib: We are hoping to, through the peace agreement. The peace agreement stipulates that in three year's time the structure of the government must be more accommodating to civil society and to the opposition parties. The peace agreement stipulates that the Sudanese people have to work to ensure that unity between the north and south is attractive. It also stipulates that toward the end of the peace agreement, southern Sudanese people will decide whether they want to have a separate state. Most Sudanese are not aware of those issues because the peace agreement was signed between the Government of Sudan and the south. It is important that civil society in Sudan be able to challenge the government to implement the terms of the peace agreement and to be accountable to its terms. Society will not be able to do that if it remains unaware and so the government is not making any effort to engage the public in the peace agreement conditions.
Civil society is taking that burden because we are the ones trying hard to hold public campaigns and to use the bits of available space in the newspapers and on the radio to promote the peace agreement. We need a public education program so that people will be more responsive to and responsible for challenging the government to make the peace agreement a reality. Everyone agrees that the momentum of the implementation of the peace agreement is extremely slow, partly because of Darfur but also because of the lack of engagement of the Sudanese in the entire process.
Senator Corbin: You are suggesting that Canada and the international community put more pressure on the regime to do just what you have been telling us.
Ms. El-Karib: Yes, or to invest in the civil society doing it so that they can proceed.
The Chairman: That is useful information.
Senator Prud'homme: I have one supplementary. You mentioned separation of the south. That could be an eternal debate. How strong is that movement and what is the feasibility of it? I am a federalist but very nationalist. At least I know that I am a federalist in my own way, as a minority in my country, and that makes people laugh sometimes; but I know where I stand. How strong is that movement? How dangerous is it for the unity of Sudan, because that can be a supplementary problem?
Ms. El-Karib: Most Sudanese agree that federalism is the most appropriate system for a vast and diverse country like Sudan. The movement toward separation is visible in the south and in the north. Not only do the southern Sudanese advocate separation but also some people in the north are talking about separation.
Within the mainstream movement of the people of Sudan, in particular in the villages of southern Sudan, people still talk about the unity of the country. It is important that we take the elements of the peace agreement seriously. In Sudan, people in the north and in the south have to take the opportunity of this interimsix-year period to make unity attractive to society in general.
I am strongly in favour of the unity of Sudan, but I say it with some scepticism. In the peace agreement it says that southern Sudan will enjoy secular government and northern Sudan will be governed through the Sharia, which is the Islamic law. That alone can be a discouragement for unity. Such a statement seems to contradict the agreement. How could we make unity attractive while the agreement says that the country will be divided thus? This is a big challenge for us in Sudan. How do we reach a compromise? That is why the democratic women's movement is working relentlessly on the issue of a constitution that will be secular and national.
Senator Jaffer: Ms. El-Karib, you were talking about the humanitarian situation in Darfur. The Africa Union has begun to help with that. Can you tell us what the security situation is like in Darfur and what Canada could be doing?
Ms. El-Karib: That is difficult. The security situation is still very serious in Darfur. As I said, it has taken on a different scale at a different level. Until now, there were incidents of killing and hostilities between the different factions, and the security of women was extremely jeopardized inside and outside the camps. In Darfur, the people in the camps are, to some extent, protected, but thousands of people opted not to stay in the camps in Darfur but to stay with relatives in villages and small towns. Those people have not been reached yet, even through humanitarian assistance.
In Darfur some areas are closed to a certain tribe or faction. Although to some extent the Africa Union has had an impact on stabilizing the situation in Darfur — and I know that Canada helped in supporting the Africa Union — I think this is the first time that it has been directly involved in peacekeeping in a conflict situation. Considering the age of the Africa Union and its lack of experience, the Africa Union needs more support in terms of training, resources and validation. Their role must be validated so that the union will gain more confidence and support.
I am not sure whether the Government of Sudan is also doing that. The role of the Africa Union is not well acknowledged by the government or by the civil society in Sudan. That acknowledgment is important. Greater support for the Africa Union, in terms of improving its resources and capacity, and also in terms of validating its role, is very important, so that it takes more proactive pressures to address the security issues in Darfur.
Senator Jaffer: This committee is studying issues facing Africa. One of the issues faced by women in Africa is genital mutilation, as we call it. I know you have done much work on that issue. Can you tell the committee what effect genital mutilation has on women? We in Canada have made the practice illegal here and have training programs for women to deal with it. Could this committee make recommendations for Canada to build partnerships with women from Africa to help stamp out this terrible practice?
Ms. El-Karib: Female genital mutilation in Sudan is a serious challenge for women and girls in the country. The rate of prevalence of female genital mutilation in Sudan is still over 80 per cent, despite years of work from activists, civil society and women's groups to fight the practice. It has, of course, very serious impacts on women in different aspects. First, there are serious impacts on the health of girls and women. In most cases, the environment is very bad, the utensils used are unhygienic, and girls often die through or because of the effect of the practice. During adolescence and early marriage and throughout their reproductive lives, when women give delivery and also in situations where the health service is very poor, they suffer from bleeding and difficult labour and they die because of those.
Female genital mutilation is psychologically harmful to women and girls. They live the trauma throughout their lives. They get very little support and assistance in this area. There are many incidents of psychological stress, depression and even mental breakdown because of the practice of female genital mutilation.
It is a serious violation of girls' rights, as it is practiced on very small girls. In some areas of Sudan, female genital mutilation is practiced on seven-day-old babies. In the end, it reinforces male domination because it affects adversely or negatively the sexual lives of women. It denies women their sexual rights. It also has social and cultural impacts where uncircumcised girls find little chance to get married and be respected in society.
Therefore, for all those aspects, female genital mutilation is one of our priorities. Recently a national network for combatting female genital mutilation has formed, consolidating the efforts of all women's groups working on this and challenging the authorities to take the issue seriously from legal, medical and social perspectives. We are having a little success with that. Through the medical council, it is now legally prohibited. However, in the national law it is not yet prohibited.
While we are doing this work, we are facing an anti-campaign from certain people who think female genital mutilation is legal and has only to be done in a hygienic atmosphere. This is a serious campaign, partially supported by some people in the government. In particular, the Ministry of Religious Affairs supports that movement.
I would like us to consolidate and work together. It is becoming a nationwide issue, along with the issue of immigration. I know it is an issue here. I know it is an issue in the U.K., in Germany and probably in the United States. I feel again that it is an area where partnership and support will be highly appreciated. We need also to disseminate good practices. We have successful strategies in eastern Sudan. We have very promising results. We need to publicize those best practices and to document those cases that could be used here and in other places.
Senator Corbin: I would like to refresh the memory of the members of the committee and inform our witness that I made a speech on this very issue in the Senate seven years ago. There were favourable and constructive responses on behalf of Canadians to those comments at that time.
Many of us are fully aware of the challenges that you face and we appreciate your work.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. With that, I will conclude the meeting and thank our witness very much for providing us with important information.
The committee adjourned.