Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 18 - Evidence - Meeting of June 14, 2005
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 14, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 5:03 p.m. to examine the development and security challenges facing Africa; the response of the international community to enhance that continent's development and political stability; and Canadian foreign policy as it relates to Africa.
Senator Peter A. Stollery (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I wish to welcome our guests. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, a meeting held in the context of our special study on Africa.
[Translation]
It is our pleasure to have with us today five ambassadors from Africa. We are pleased to welcome from the Embassy of the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria, His Excellency Youcef Yousfi, a former minister and Ambassador to Canada since April 2001, from the Embassy of the Republic of Tunisia, His Excellency Mohamed Saad, a former minister and Ambassador to Canada since June 2001, from the Embassy of the Kingdom of Morocco, His Excellency Mohamed Tangi, who was formally a student at the University of Ottawa, and has been the Ambassador to Canada since September 2003; and finally, from the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, His Excellency Mahfoud Ben Deddach, a former senator and minister and Ambassador to Canada since September 2004.
[English]
We have, from the Embassy of the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, His Excellency Ahmed Ali Jarrud, a career diplomat and Ambassador to Canada since May 27 of this year.
[Translation]
I would like to welcome you all to the Senate of Canada. Their Excellencies will make their presentations in the order of precedence, the order in which Her Excellency the Governor General received their letters of credence.
I would also like to say that the Embassy of Egypt unfortunately had to decline our invitation.
We are delighted, Excellencies, that you have accepted our invitation to appear before the committee today to give us an overview of your countries and to explain the challenges they face and the role they play in the African continent.
Before I invite His Excellency Yousfi to make his opening remarks, I will turn the chair over to Senator Di Nino. I have to leave for about 10 minutes to discuss the committee's future.
[English]
Senator Consiglio Di Nino (Deputy Chairman) in the chair.
The Deputy Chairman: I believe the understanding is that we will begin with Mr. Yousfi. Please proceed.
[Translation]
His Excellency Mr. Youcef Yousfi, Ambassador of the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria to Canada: Honourable senators, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs for inviting me here to speak about my country and about Africa.
Located in the heart of the Maghreb, at the gateway to Africa and the Arab world, Algeria is one hour away from Europe by plane. It is the second largest country in Africa, and its population is almost equal to Canada's.
Like Canada, it has abundant and diversified natural resources, in particular hydrocarbons and mineral ores; however, it faces the constraints imposed by a relatively dry climate. We must remember that the Sahara, the largest desert in the world, covers 90 per cent of Algeria.
Right after independence, in 1962, after a long and cruel war of liberation, Algeria, with a great shortage of skilled human resources and a devastated country, thought about to rebuild a modern state and to take on the tremendous economic and social development challenges it faced with the assistance of many countries, including Canada, whose assistance was particularly appreciated.
Despite the errors and inadequacies of the past, Algeria has been able to restore the state, preserve its territorial integrity, establish solid relationships with other nations, educate most of its population, and significantly raise its standard of living.
The drop in oil prices in the 80s did highlight some major weaknesses, however.
The centralized economic system that had been established proved fragile because of its over-dependency on hydrocarbons. Rather than being one of the engines of development, agriculture was in decline and was not playing its proper role. The education system needed modernizing quickly. The political system and the state institutions no longer met the needs and aspirations of the citizens of Algeria. They required profound transformations. A reform process was undertaken in 1986, particularly as regards the introduction of greater economic openness and the establishment of a multi-party system. Unfortunately, the fact that the government institutions were poorly prepared to support these fundamental changes caused some extremist parties to try to take power using religion and terrorist violence.
The country was not at all prepared to deal with this situation. Foreign trade liberalization resulted in the closure of hundreds of companies and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs. This exacerbated the social situation and strengthened the extremist parties. Algeria was about to go through one of the worst times in modern history, during which it faced terrorism violence alone. I would like to emphasize that throughout this time Canada demonstrated its solidarity with my country in many ways. Some of you came to visit Algeria and reported back on the struggle that was going on. I would like to pay special tribute to these individuals.
The terrorist groups were considerably weakened and isolated by the rejection of violence and extremism by the population, the steps taken by the security forces and the enactment of the Civil Concord Act. Throughout this very difficult time, Algeria continued the reforms that it had undertaken which, and this must be emphasized, were not imposed from outside the country. They would result of a deliberate, strategic choice to put the country on track for prosperity, progress, stability and modernity. Many multi-party elections organized since 1995 at the communal, legislative or presidential level, have shown that the democratic system is firmly in place in Algerian society.
Today, we can see that progress has been made in all areas and that the situation is evolving very positively. We very much hope that the general amnesty law being discussed at the moment will restore complete security, peace and serenity for the people of Algeria. The country will then devote all of its efforts to economic and social development, particularly since it is leaving behind its isolation and finding its rightful place in the world once again.
For their part, the economic reforms are beginning to pay off. The liberalization of foreign trade, the signing of a free trade agreement with the European Union, the upcoming membership in the WTO, the review of various economic texts and regulations are restoring confidence in the country and investments are multiplying.
The partnership in the hydrocarbon industry, particularly with Canadian companies, has introduced a new dynamic reflected in significant discoveries that have made it possible to renew the reserves and significantly increase production. As a result of the progress made by the private sector — particularly in agriculture, industry and services — and the favorable oil prices, growth rates have shut up in recent years to around 5 to 7 per cent. It is expected that in 2005, these rates will exceed 7.5 per cent. The other economic indicators are also encouraging. The GDP per inhabitant has increased by close to 50 per cent in four years. The foreign debt is dropping, and represents only 25 per cent of the GDP. The debt servicing costs are decreasing, and amount to 16 per cent of exports. The foreign exchange reserves are over $45 billion, and this guarantees financial stability for the country.
However, we have two major challenges: the first is the diversification of the economy, which remains too dependent on hydrocarbons; and the second is to reduce the unemployment rate, which is most disturbing. In this regard, we expect investments of some $120 billion Cdn over the next five years, including $70 billion by the government. Some of the major government expenditures will be in the areas of education, health care, housing, drinking water, basic infrastructure, public services and development assistance.
Canada is a friend to Algeria. This year, we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries. Many types of aid provided by Canada has been extremely useful and very much appreciated. More than ever, we need your country's support in carrying out our reforms and establishing an ever- stronger partnership. We share so many things, particularly the establishment of a fairer, more equitable and more supportive world order.
His Excellency Mr. Mohamed Saad, ambassador of the Republic of Tunisia to Canada: Mr. Chairman, we have been asked to speak about the development and security challenges facing Africa; the response of the international community to promoting the political development and stability of this continent, and Canada's foreign policy as regards Africa.
Before coming here, I wondered whether I should speak about my own country or about Africa? I hesitated between the two, because this is a real issue. Africa has had the same name for 2,000 years. In the end, I decided that there was not a very great difference between Tunisia and Africa. I will therefore try to draw your attention to Canada's foreign policy with respect to the African continent, of which Algeria is part.
This is a fortunate opportunity to have a discussion with you about the ideas, problems and challenges facing Africa, the international community's response to Africa, particularly Canada's, and the way in which the international community can support Africa to help solve its problems.
Tunisia is located in Northern Africa. We became independent in 1956. Since then, Tunisia has been constantly building an independent State, of course, but particularly a modern State that banishes all the demons of division based on ethnic, religious or tribal origin and one that enshrines the equality of all citizens, regardless of sex, race or religion. This is a fundamental issue, because when we see what is happening in Arab Muslim countries on television screens every day, the crucial importance of this issue becomes apparent.
Why Africa? For two reasons at least, which are both moral and ethical, but also economic. There are 52 countries in Africa, and they account for 13 per cent of the world's population. Of the 49 least developed countries in the world, 34 are in Africa. That gives you some idea of the size of the task and the challenges we face. Africa gets only 1 per cent of the foreign investment throughout the world. Africa has a very sad record as regards poverty and misery: there is AIDS, illiteracy, and so on.
So as you can see, we face many challenges each and every day. However, there is a paradox. What Africa are we talking about? We are here to talk about Africa, but we in Northern Africa ask whether we are talking about Northern Africa, sub-Saharan Africa or all of Africa?
This is more than a question students are asked at school; this is the way in which the African problem is framed.
Very often we wonder whether Northern Africa is part of this continent known as Africa. In this context, what role should be given to emerging countries, these countries that manage to avoid this sea of misery and are now part of Northern Africa? How does Canada's new foreign policy review see these countries with which Canada has developed lasting ties for the last 40 or 50 years? What is the strategy with respect to Africa? How are we going to help Africa?
Should Africa be seen just from the humanitarian, or even the security, point of view, or are there other ways of looking at the African problem? Canada's new international policy review seems to sanction this approach today, and our view is that Africa should be seen as a whole.
Africa is not just a humanitarian problem. It is also a security problem and a development and social problem. We think that Africa must be supported so that it can assume its rightful place as Canada's full-fledged partner.
We must not simply direct assistance for Africa toward development. We want to move to a different approach to development, to a different approach to cooperation with Canada. While overseas development assistance is definitely important, we do tend to see it mainly from a humanitarian point of view. Partnership, however, assumes a different type of relationship, particularly in economic terms. We think Canada should promote this new type of relationship based both on trade and investment. That is what we expect.
We want to support Africa in its development initiatives and help it achieve its potential. In political terms, we must get African countries involved in settling the conflicts that are hampering African development today. We think Canada must work with some of the more advanced African countries to help out the less advanced African countries.
As regards economic matters, the partnership with the African countries must be based on investment and trade. We have to think about reducing and eliminating the debt of African countries. Part of this debt was forgiven during the G8 meeting held recently in England. However, a great deal still remains to be done. Debt forgiveness is one thing, but there is also the possibility of converting the debt into social or economic projects. There is a great deal to be done in the social area as well. There must be support for education and health care. We have to work against poverty, which is a fertile breeding ground for extremism.
The question of security is of concern to the whole world today, following the events of September 11. In our opinion, there are two ways of responding to this situation. Of course we must take security into account, but we must focus particularly on development. We must invest, promote development and give people jobs to fight terrorism and root out extremism.
Canada's contribution to helping Africa was noticed very early. In recent years, Canada established the African Investment Fund and the African Development Fund. It directed two thirds of its aid to the so-called core countries, two thirds of which are in Africa.
We, the emerging countries of Northern Africa are wondering. What is Canada's policy regarding emerging African countries, with this group of countries that have taken a step toward development?
Senator Prud'homme: Help us in our thinking about this.
Mr. Saad: We are prepared to help you, but we are also asking you to help us and to listen to us so that together we can find an answer to this question.
[English]
The Deputy Chairman: Thank you, Your Excellency. The purpose of the invitation, obviously, is to listen to your opinions and guidance as well as those of your colleagues. We welcome any and all comments, particularly if they are meant as a constructive criticism of some of the things that we have done. I direct that comment to all of you. We certainly appreciate your presence.
[Translation]
We will now turn the floor over to His Excellency Mohamed Tangi.
His Excellency Mr. Mohamed Tangi, Ambassador of the Kingdom of Morocco to Canada: Honourable senators, I gave your clerk a copy of my presentation. To save time, I will simply give you an overview of it.
[English]
Senator Prud'homme: Mr. Chairman, could we agree that the text that has been prepared by the witness shall be appended to the minutes?
The Deputy Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chairman: Carried.
Mr. Tangi: I thank the honourable senator for his excellent suggestion. In that way, I will fly through it.
[Translation]
Mr. Chairman, honourable senators, Your Excellencies, I would like to be somewhat more relaxed in my presentation and tell you that if your researchers look into the files at the Department of Foreign Affairs, they will find a note written by the Minister of External Affairs at the time, Mr. Pearson, who recommended, on the eve of Morocco's independence, that the Government of Canada make Morocco a friend, as had other countries such as Great Britain, the United States and France. Fortunately, the Government of Canada followed Mr. Lester Pearson's recommendation. Over the last 50 years, the ties of friendship between the Kingdom of Morocco and Canada have continued to develop and diversify.
Given that almost 100,000 immigrants of Moroccan origin are in Canada, we are now much more than friends. In fact, we are, to use the English expression ``almost family''.
In order to understand the new State that Canada decided to befriend, we must remember that Morocco is an ancient nation. In its present configuration, Morocco has existed for at least 12 centuries. The Alaouite dynasty, which reigns in Morocco at the moment, dates back to the 17th century.
To understand Morocco even better, we must understand three other dimensions — its profound attachment to Africa, its membership in the Arab world and its great traditional openness to the rest of the world.
The development of the Kingdom of Morocco is inevitably linked to the history of the Mediterranean region, the cradle of some of the greatest civilizations on the planet. The Kingdom of Morocco was very aware of its rich heritage when it took on the challenges of the post-colonial period, which still exists today: the challenge of economic and social development, and, increasingly, the challenge of security and peace, which are the sine qua non conditions for the prosperity of all.
Honourable senators, we take up these challenges at many levels — at the national level, the regional level, across the continent and throughout the world.
Nationally, from just before independence and throughout the decades since we have, like many other states in Africa, or as you might say, the third world, which were under the yoke of colonialism, worked very hard to improve our territorial integrity. We have also made every effort to build a modern state, a state that abides by the rule of law. We have consolidated democracy and promoted human rights, the rights of men and women, so that we could move towards integrated economic and social development.
Regionally, our major concern was and is building a united Maghreb which is peaceful and prosperous, modeled on other regional unions in the world.
From the standpoint of Africa as a whole, which is at the core of today's debate, since we were one of the first African countries to obtain independence, from the outset we did everything we could with the few means we had to contribute to the liberation of nations that were still under the yoke of colonialism.
At the same time, we have contributed to settling internal conflicts within countries and between countries, and have taken part in operations to restore and maintain peace in Africa under the aegis of the United Nations. Morocco has taken part in about a dozen peacekeeping operations in Africa.
On a more positive note, we have tried — again, with the limited means and resources we have today — to contribute to Africa's economic and social development, both bi-laterally and through multi-lateral programs.
Globally, we have maintained our solidarity in taking up new challenges of the 21st century — such as uncontrolled globalization, with the economic and social marginalization it brings to a large part of the world's population, and with the damage it causes to the diversity of cultures and civilizations.
On an more relaxed note, the world has adopted a convention on the protection of biological diversity, but is still procrastinating on adopting a convention on the protection of cultural diversity.
The threats and challenges we face, Mr. Chairman, require us, the nations of all continents, to form an objective alliance against the risks to stability, security and peace engendered by extremism and terrorism.
Honorable senators, Canada has been with us in our efforts. Its assistance in sectors vital to our economic and social development, such as health, basic education, good governance and the promotion of equality between the sexes has been deeply appreciated as well. We hope that Canada will continue to stand with us in our efforts to move towards modernization, democracy and progress.
Moreover, honourable senators, we know that Africa is the central concern for Canadians. Canada's actions attest to that concern. Canada put Africa back on the agenda when the international community came together at the Kananaskis Summit.
We hope that Canada can do more, to ensure that the next G8 Summit, which is to be held in Gleneagles, Scotland, in July and is to focus primarily on the debt of poor countries and on development assistance, as well as the United Nations Summit to be held in September 2005, focus on development in Africa, and on the decisions which must be made.
We can count on Canada's commitment. We are all well aware of Canada's convictions and commitment for Africa.
The Chairman: Thank you. I will now call upon his Excellency Mahfoud Ben Deddach.
His Excellency Mr. Mahfoud Ben Deddach, Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Mauritania to Canada: Thank you, honourable senators. It is a great pleasure for me today to be before the Senate committee, since I have also been elected as a senator in my own country, on the occasion of the first multiparty democratic elections which took place in 1992.
Thank you again for giving us this opportunity to speak to you about a country that is certainly the least well- known of the five here, something which is paradoxical for a country that was the cradle of two of the largest and most prestigious African empires.
First, I will say a few words about the empire of Ghana, which was established in Mauritania. Its capital and major city of Awdaghosr was in Mauritania and was established by Mauritanians of black African origin. The old Empire of Ghana extended over almost all of West Africa. It was so prestigious that when in 1957 the President of the nation then called the Gold Coast wanted a prestigious African name for his country, he chose Ghana. The old Gold Coast is today's Ghana, which in fact was not part of the old Empire of Ghana.
The second large empire born in Mauritania is the Almoravid Empire, which extended over all of North Africa and today's Spain. This is why my country became known as Mauritania, because it was the land of the Moors. The land of the Moors was simply based on the name the Spaniards gave to Muslims in Andalusia, and to Muslims generally. This is why when Spain colonized the Philippines, the Spaniards called Filipino Muslims, los Moros.
Oddly enough, Mauritania, the country that historically gave birth to two major African empires and whose contribution to the history of Africa is unparalleled — is still one of the least well-known African nations today. We may well ask why. Colonization certainly played a major role. We have our role as well. It is always difficult for us to speak well of our country. For us, it may appear like a form of truth, and we think less well of our country. In any case, even though my country may not be the least well-known of the five in North Africa, it is certainly the poorest.
This is why, before I begin to speak about Mauritania, I wanted to draw your attention to these facts. I represent a poor country that needs help and assistance more than the other countries, or in any case, as much as most of the African countries now considered core countries within the framework of Canada's foreign policy. Unfortunately, my country is not one of those core countries.
Mauritania is a poor country that extends over a vast portion of the Sahara desert. My Algerian colleague has just said that the Sahara is the world's largest desert. It extends over 90 per cent of Algeria and 95 per cent of Mauritania.
Thus, we have very few water resources. We have had 30 consecutive years of drought, with no rain at all. Everything achieved in my country was accomplished by ourselves. One might say that Mauritania was an accessory colony of France. All the French were interested in was in ensuring that Mauritanians did not go to Senegal or Mali to intervene, in other words, that Mauritanians did not create problems in the Senegal and Mali colonies, where Mauritanian tribes were accustomed to exercising some authority before the French came. They were not actually interested in Mauritania itself, and that is why nothing was done in Mauritania. When we achieved independence, we did not even have a capital city.
Our capital was built in 1967, when we achieved internal independence, a sort of self-government. The first meeting of the council of ministers was held in a tent, because there was no public building, no structure, and no road.
Everything we now have is what we have built ourselves. We did not get it from colonization. Mauritania has made huge efforts. When we compare where we started to where we are today, given that Mauritania is one of the fastest- growing in Africa — 4.5 to 6 per cent a year — and in spite of our huge debt, I take pleasure in noting that we are one of the 18 countries whose debt to international monetary institutions the G-8 has declared to be cancelled. This is an important step forward, but it is not enough.
Mauritania is also a multi-ethnic country. A few moments ago, I mentioned the old Empire of Ghana. We are a multi-ethnic country which was first populated by black tribes when the Sahara was wet, well before 3000 or 4000 B.C. In around 2000 B.C., Berber tribes from the northern part of the Maghreb came down to Mauritania and settled there. Arab tribes joined them later. So, our population is a mixture of African, Berber and Arab.
We have four national languages, three African and one Arab, in addition to French. French is used very extensively, particularly in the workplace, because Mauritania was colonized by the French.
Mauritania has a population of approximately 3 million, over some 50,000 square kilometers. Our population is 10 times smaller than the population of Morocco's, while the country itself is twice the size of Morocco.
We have significant mineral resources, particularly iron ore, which is at present recognized as being the best quality in the world. We also have an extremely significant fishery resource. Given that we cannot effectively control our coastlines, our fishery resource is pillaged by many fishing companies from many countries, including Korea, Japan and Russia.
Nonetheless, fishing remains the second-largest resource in Mauritania, after minerals. Mauritania is a desert country, but is recognized as one of the largest countries with one of the largest livestock herds in Africa. Our herds total some 12 million head. If I compare that to the herds of our Moroccan neighbours, who have 15 million head of livestock and a population of 30 million, Mauritania has 12 million head of livestock with a population of 3 million. This means that Mauritania will require more assistance if its animal husbandry is to be modernized. We are talking about primary and intensive breading, since the herders are nomadic. People go where they can find grazing and water. So we are not modernized, and we have no financial resources.
On the whole, our major resources are minerals, fish and livestock.
Canada's bilateral contribution to development in Mauritania is almost nil. However, there is a Canadian contribution within the framework of the program to enhance the Senegal river, which is common to Senegal and Mali. Canada is the largest contributor to that program, which has made it possible to build two dams on the Senegal river over 150,000 hectares of irrigable land. On those 150,000 hectares of irrigable land, we have been able to achieve a viability of $50,000, because costs are extremely high. With that money, we attained 60 per cent of our exports.
Mauritania's main export commodity is rice. We are huge consumers of rice. Rice production now covers 60 per cent of our own needs, and we import only 40 per cent with the 50,000 hectares we have. In other words, if we could make just 20,000 additional hectares viable as well, we could achieve self-sufficiency in our food supply.
Politically, Mauritania — like most other African countries — has had a one Party system since 1978. Because of the unfortunate war in the Western Sahara region, there was a period of instability brought about by a series of military coups, which ended in 1984, when the last military coup was initiated, well before the Berlin wall came down and well before the Eastern Block became destabilized. This initiated the gradual move towards a multi-partisan democratic system.
In 1986, Mauritania already had multi-party municipal and regional elections, with a variety of candidates. This was before the events of 1989. In 1991, we adopted a constitution guaranteeing a multi-party system, all political freedoms, freedom of expression in all its forms, freedom to form parties, and freedom to demonstrate. Mauritania is also the very first Arab country to organize presidential elections with multiple candidates. The election took place in 1992.
Since then, we have renewed Parliament with these two chambers. Mauritania is one of the first countries to establish a Senate chamber. It is even the first sub-Saharan African country to establish a Senate at all. We have already renewed the chambers three times. There have also been three presidential elections, again with a variety of candidates.
I will not conclude by saying that our system is perfect. Our system is still in its infancy. Our citizens are beginning to get used to having elections, and are learning that each vote carries weight. It is only by having repeated elections that the democratic system will become fully implemented. The country has been a democracy for very many years, and we still find in it some imperfections from time to time. That is what happens in Mauritania, which is just instituting a democracy and where these concepts are still emerging.
I would also point out that Mauritania is a relatively stable country. I do not know whether you are aware that we were quite recently — on June — attacked by a terrorist group based in Algeria. No one is safe from terrorism. Mauritania is a stable country, but it has had problems because it was the least prepared for a modern existence and because it gained nothing from colonization.
For a very long time, we have been nomads set apart from modern life. We entered into a modern system alone. We are trying to make every effort to bring Mauritania into the world as a modern State.
Mauritania has a special commission to fight poverty. After establishing the commission, we noted that poverty dropped significantly, by about 16 per cent. Moreover, we noted that per capita income increased by some 22 per cent. Calmly, quietly and in a spirit of peaceful cooperation with other countries, Mauritania is trying to go forward, and to do what it can alone. It is not a very well-known country, and it does not receive much international assistance. As I said, we receive little bilateral aid from Canada because Mauritania is not what I might call a high-profile country. Some countries are very well known, and receive a great deal of publicity throughout the world. We are on the margins of society. Now, since independence and until today, we have left the margins. We would gain a great deal if we were better known and also received aid — that we need much more than other countries.
[English]
His Excellency Ahmed Ali Jarrud, Ambassador of the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya to Canada: Honourable senators, I am extremely pleased to appear before this honourable committee today. I will begin by giving you some information about Libya, which is well known to every one of you.
Libya is a country situated in the north of Africa and on the south side of the Mediterranean Sea. Libya has a territory of 1,800,000 square kilometres and a population of about 5 million citizens. The Mediterranean coast of Libya runs about 2,000 kilometres in length. I am proud to say that Libya is one of the most secure and stable countries on the continent.
Libya is co-operating with the international community in the fight against terrorism, and has taken a courageous step in renouncing its programs of weapons of mass destruction.
As honourable senators are aware, Libya has very good relations with Canada. Canada is well known to a large number of Libyan families because many Libyans graduated from Canadian universities. Canada is a country that Libyans love to visit and to study in. We are confident that our relations with Canada will continue to improve, especially after the visit of the Prime Minister to Tripoli last year.
I did not intend to speak about Libya, because the main issue that I wanted to address was our policy on Africa. I provided information to the honourable committee about our role, efforts and policy in Africa, with a special focus on the issue of Darfur, which is very important for us and for Canadians. I will focus briefly on what we are doing in Africa, besides what is in the papers that I have given to you.
Honourable senators are aware that Libya is an important part of Africa, and has important relations in economic, political and human aspects. I am sure you are aware of the role in which Col. Gadhafi is regarded in Africa, in particular in establishing security and stability in the region and his efforts to solve conflicts between the African countries. He was named as coordinator of peace in Africa by some African organizations.
Libya provides important economic aid to different African countries in our effort to help our African brothers to solve their economic crises, especially those countries that are confronting armed conflicts. We cite many examples in the paper we submitted to the honourable committee.
In May there was a mini-summit in Tripoli on the issue of Darfur. Previous to that summit, there was a meeting in Tripoli with rival tribes, including the leaders of the tribes of Darfur. That meeting was very successful. All concerned parties came to a ceasefire agreement, and agreed to work together to solve the issues in Darfur.
Libya is a neighbour of Sudan, and there are tribal relations. We opened our ports and airports for humanitarian assistance to be taken through our territory, free of taxes and customs. In June of last year, we signed an agreement with the international food program regarding this particular matter. Also, we are encouraging countries such as Canada to use the Libyan path, because it is secure and very near to take the humanitarian aid.
We are coordinating with the Canadian side regarding Darfur, which is of a great concern to us. We appreciate what Canada has done and what Canada has offered up to the moment, on the issue of Darfur. We encourage Canada to provide more assistance to the region of Darfur. We also encourage Canada to help us and other nations conquer poverty, disease and all the problems facing Africa. We are also, as you are aware, suffering from the poverty in Africa.
Our country has been used for illegal immigration — hundreds of thousands of African citizens immigrating illegally towards Europe. We have reached an agreement recently with the European Union regarding this particular matter. Really, the measures we can take on the Libyan and European side cannot stop the illegal immigration. The solution is to invest more money, to participate heavily in the development program, and to create development projects in Africa that can contain and stop the illegal immigration. Mr. Chairman and honourable senators, I am ready to hear any questions from your side.
The Chairman: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Prud'homme: I am very happy to have you here today. Since the truth will always out, I will say that I was in support of a study of Canada-Arab relations. I agreed with the majority decision of the committee to study Africa, because what immediately came to mind was that your five countries are a part of Africa. I knew that we would come together again at some point.
I would also encourage you to be free with your questions, to be tough, implacable and charming, since all of Canada can hear you now. I will therefore publicly make a commitment to distribute your briefs, the briefs you have tabled here today, which I believe will help people gain a better understanding of North Africa.
You will notice the cameras recording this meeting. I want to let you know, in order to be clear, that you will receive a copy of the recording, if you wish, and I promise to make sure that you get it as soon as possible.
It has been over 20 years since we have dealt with this issue in the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. I am pleased to see my colleague here, who was very active in this area. I strongly disagree with some of his arguments from 20 years ago, because they are still out here.
Let us come back to Africa. I do not have specific questions to ask.
[English]
I would like to be on record as saying that I am so pleased to see the ambassador of Libya. I know it is shocking for you to hear, but I want that to be on record. I want to almost apologize for the immense difficulty that you had in opening your embassy here in Ottawa. I thank the good Lord for having given me enough strength to take the necessary steps to see you open your embassy in Ottawa and establish a good relationship with Ottawa in difficult times. The pressure was so immense that you could not even find an apartment in Ottawa. I intervened. It is a great success, and now you are the most popular people. I am not worried for you. However, there is a beginning to everything, and I want this to be on record.
Your Excellency, you have touched on a strong subject that is of interest to my colleagues — Darfur. The other colleagues, very strangely, all spoke in French, but I will address you in a neutral language, English, and then I will go back to French. When you talked about Darfur, all your other colleagues said, ``Accompany us.'' I would like to accompany you. You have opened the door of possibility with Canada. Since it is now kosher to have a good relationship with Libya, I would be happy to see the kind of proposal you would make to Canada in order that Canada and Libya could have a joint project, because of your knowledge and proximity with the situation. You yourself opened the avenue. Within your comments, I would appreciate it if you would expand on that a little so that my colleagues could profit from your experience.
[Translation]
I would like to emphasize to His Excellency the Ambassador for Morocco that the promise that I made to him to relaunch the Canada-Morocco Parliamentary Association is on its way to becoming reality. Even if Parliament adjourns and there is no election, that will have to happen.
You said that we need to accompany you. Could you tell us how you, as North African countries and Arab countries, could accompany us, Canada, in our foreign policy on Africa?
We are hearing about major world crises right now, almost anti-Semitism, which could undermine good relations. There is also the danger of Islamophobia which, in my opinion, is gaining ground quickly. It is more dangerous than any fatal illness that can strike human beings. I point this out because you need to explain to us the danger that it can pose for relations with Africa. Is it possible to have good relations with Africa if there is no peace in that part of the world?
Everything starts with peace. There must be calm in order to have commerce. In order to have calm, it takes knowledge and a willingness to share and work as partners. I will address my question to His Excellency the Ambassador to start with.
[English]
Mr. Jarrud: I appreciate the help and assistance that Senator Prud'homme gave us in opening our embassy. We had a difficult time finding a location for our embassy, but, thank God, finally we are established in Ottawa at the ambassadorial level. After almost 30 years in a non-resident relationship, we now have a resident relationship in Ottawa and in Tripoli. I appreciate the comments of the honourable senator.
Darfur is an important and sensitive issue. Sudan is our neighbour. Libya was involved in the peace process in Sudan a long time ago between the Government of Sudan and the popular front of the liberation of Sudan. Libya and Egypt offered a peaceful plan. Unfortunately, this peaceful plan did not succeed because there were pressures from outside the region not to accept the Libyan-Egyptian formula for many reasons related to the Cold War and the tension years, et cetera. That situation is now completely different. Darfur remains a sensitive issue. We must admit that the Government of Sudan mishandled the situation from the beginning. Since the situation has been internationalized, the Government of Sudan realizes that this issue should be taken seriously, and they must participate with the African Union in finding a solution to this matter.
We are offering humanitarian assistance through our relations with the leaders of the tribes. You will find some tribes in southern Libya and others in eastern Chad. It is a complicated relationship. We have developed excellent relations with all the parties involved in Darfur. This relationship can give us the credibility and the confidence to play a positive role in finding a solution to this matter.
The recent summit held in Tripoli from May 16 to 18 was a successful one. I have the final declaration of the summit. Three or four days before the summit, there was an important meeting between the leaders of the tribes, the Justice and Equality Movement of Darfur and representatives of the government. All participants agreed to a ceasefire, and to work together to solve this problem. This was an opportunity. Some leaders assisted the summit and met with the presidents of the countries participating in the summit. Those countries included Nigeria, as a president of the African Union; Egypt; Sudan; Chad; and Libya. There was only one issue. The African Union is doing a great job in Darfur in trying to establish peace and security. We need all concerned countries to support the efforts of the African Union; to give help and assistance to the African Union. It is difficult to accept foreign intervention. That is the problem. The Government of Sudan says there is foreign intervention, and Darfur is a sovereign part of Sudan.
To find a peaceful solution, we should concentrate our assistance on the African Union. The African Union needs help to do its job. When the African Union can get assistance and help, we can, as African nations, do a significant amount in this particular matter.
[Translation]
Mr. Yousfi: I have a few things that I would like to say in response to Senator Prud'homme's question about what we can do and what we can suggest so that we can eventually find solutions together to the many problems facing Africa.
We Algerians consider ourselves Africans, and we are Africans. From the time of our independence in 1962, we have helped all countries that were not independent to free themselves from colonialism. We helped Angola, Mozambique, Cape Verde and South Africa.
I would remind you that Mr. Mandela was in Algeria just before being arrested and spending much of his life in prison. The Maghreb countries, such as Mauritania, Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria, know sub-Saharan Africa very well.
Algeria has hosted thousands of African students. We have been involved in many African countries at the economic and social level. We have even intervened militarily to help countries such as Nigeria to deal with secession, attempted secession and the beginnings of civil war in that country at certain times.
We have had excellent partnerships with the United States and the European Union to find solutions to the conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea.
We understand African problems, we know how to resolve conflicts in Africa. The situation in Darfur merits your consideration. It would be important to look at whether a partnership could be developed between North African countries, Canada and other countries to try to find a solution to the conflicts there.
Foreign intervention and outside pressure will not resolve the problem and lead to a solution to the sensitive issues involved there.
The Organization for African Union is doing everything it can and it will find a solution with a bit of assistance. All that is needed is for the international community to actually want to help, since this is a dramatic human problem. There are the difficulties of transporting troops and bringing in supplies and food for the peacekeepers. Not only Canada but other members of the international community as well can help with logistics.
What we absolutely want to avoid is foreign intervention in Sudan, which would threaten the country's sovereignty and its territorial integrity. We do not want that and we feel that it would not be the best way of resolving the issue. We can find a solution and you can help African countries resolve these issues by providing logistical support.
The $190 million that Canada has given is extremely useful and very much appreciated. The proposal to provide logistical support is also appreciated, and I believe that we can develop partnerships, not only to help with the conflict going on now in Darfur, but also for other regions where there are conflicts, such as Liberia and the Democratic Republic of Congo, or to permanently ease tensions that may boil over any day in the conflicts between Ethiopia and Eritrea, or elsewhere.
Canada, the Maghreb countries and other members of the international community can work together to find solutions to this issue. I will go a bit further regarding cooperation. With regard to economic, cultural and educational cooperation, we have a great deal of experience in our relations with sub-Saharan Africa. We can work together to create partnerships to assist African countries that need help.
We have been involved in this kind of cooperation for many years. We have the experience and capacity needed to do this work. We can bring our experience to create such a partnership.
[English]
Mr. Tangi: I would like to react first to the proposal by Senator Prud'homme. I am happy he will be able to set up the parliamentary —
Senator Prud'homme: ``Reconstitute.''
Mr. Tangi: Reconstitute the parliamentary friendship group between Canada and Morocco. It is urgent that this group be reconstituted. I would like to invite its members to join the Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Hays, who kindly accepted an official invitation from his Moroccan counterpart to visit Morocco this fall.
Mr. Chairman, on the question of how we can work together, there are two levels of working together. The first is working with the Maghreb countries, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya and Mauritania, in completing the work we are doing. Take, for instance, our country in the kingdom of Morocco. We are a democracy in transition. The image of Canada in our country is a lot better than you can imagine. It is the image of an ideal country; multicultural, multi- ethnic and a true democracy. I think your experience will be helpful to us in telling us what we are doing right. It will also be helpful to be indulgent if sometimes we are not moving at the pace that one would expect, especially considering that when we look at where western parliamentary democracies are now, it has taken almost 1100 years, and we are asked to do the same in a few years.
Regarding economic and social development, you told us to be very frank with you. Well, let me be very frank. I think it has been proven that you cannot have a sectoral or a piecemeal approach. Socioeconomic development was defined in the late 1960s as the upward movement of the entire social system. It is not only dealing with education, health and employment, et cetera; it is a comprehensive deal. It is also not only dealing with a number of countries in a region. Once a few countries have been developed, they will serve as a magnet for illegal immigration and whatever else you have.
Accordingly, we could concentrate on specific issues, but do it all throughout. I have a small garden back home in my country. I wanted to use pesticides. The man who is helping me said, ``Mr. Tangi, before you do it, please make sure that all the neighbours are also doing it. It is not useful to chase mosquitoes from your garden if they are all over everywhere else.'' Accordingly, it is the entire continent. You see the image. It is the entire continent that we must tackle.
Most of all, we should look at specific issues in the case of our countries in the Mahgreb, which have been qualified by my neighbour, the ambassador of Tunisia, as emerging. Of course, we are already beginning to stand on our feet. We need transfer of technology in all fields. We need investments, especially investments in export-oriented industries.
Last but not least, on the question of security, everybody is talking about it these days. We are the first victims of terrorism. It has been the case in all our countries. Accordingly, I would like to draw your attention to what I said in my paper. We need an objective alliance of all our countries. Terrorism has no religion, no race and no specific geographic location. In my country in the kingdom of Morocco, we thought we were immune to this. What happened in May, 2003 in Morocco — our 9/11 — was a wake-up call for us. I am underlining this in a strong way, because our young democracies are threatened by these extremists and terrorist movements. As a matter of fact, they are using all the tools of democracy to topple, or to destabilize, the democratic regimes we are trying to institute in our countries.
Regarding the question raised by my colleague from Algeria, the triangle of partnership between our countries and Canada for the development of Sub-Saharan Africa is also a very efficient tool. We have had experience in this triangle of cooperation with countries as far away from Africa as Japan and China. We have successful experiences in the field of fisheries, road building, health, education and many other areas where we have put our resources; experience and access with financial and technical resources from other countries in the service of our continent. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Translation]
Mr. Saad: Those are interesting questions. Senator Prud'homme asked me a question that contained several parts.
Senator Prud'homme: This way we will not have to spend a year studying relations in the Middle East.
The Chairman: I would point out that the Maghreb is not the Middle East, Senator Prud'homme.
Mr. Saad: You even touched on Africa. I found Senator Prud'homme's questions both important and interesting. Stability and security are essential for development, since no serious and significant progress toward social peace and stability can be made without development.
We have a case that is not too far away, and that is Haiti. I think that Canada has always done its duty toward Haiti. Canada has always been among the first countries to help Haiti. Canada has been there and continues to be there.
I understand that the Prime Minister, when he presented the new foreign policy review, referred to Haiti and said that, without stability, there could be no development and no social progress. I was going to say that stability is actually a prerequisite for development, which in turn leads to democracy.
In my view, the Maghreb countries are both part of the problem and part of the solution. We are part of the problem because we are African countries and so we belong to that continent that is giving us so many problems today.
I can tell you that, as the representative of an Arab, African and Muslim country, I have a threefold challenge every day to convince, shed doubt and accompany and reassure many of those we deal with.
Once we say Tunisia is a Muslim country, immediately certain images emerge, although Tunisia has always been a country known for its moderation, its moderate culture and its openness. Those are images and stereotypes.
When you talk about Arab countries, people automatically think of certain images on television that are frightening. When you talk about Africa, there are also images that appear on television; Africa is poverty, it is HIV. Every day that the good Lord makes, we are called upon to work and fight on at least three different battlegrounds.
What relations might we have today with Canada? How does Canada contemplate and see its relations with the Maghreb? However, I have to say and repeat that Canada is certainly the country that has done the most for the Maghreb countries.
Over the past 50 years, we have been able to forge links that I would not hesitate to describe as lasting. It would be a shame now for countries like ours, friends of Canada, attached to Canada, for these emerging countries in Africa, not to be taken into account by the new foreign policy review. We are told: You are emerging countries, you are on your own now.
What can be done with us? I ask the question because we are attached to Canada and we think we can work together, in Africa in particular. We think the countries of Northern Africa are an engine for progress and the spread of progress in Africa. Can you imagine Canada without Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver? I am asking you that question, honourable senators.
We know the lay of the land, the culture and we have developed, along the way, some know-how and expertise. I can tell you that despite the very modest means of all of the Maghreb countries — I did not come here to talk about Tunisia today; I only refer to it incidentally. But if there are any questions for me on Tunisia or if there might be another time to discuss the Tunisian experience, I would be willing to do so.
I think we have developed some expertise in all fields, such as education and health. As my colleague, Mr. Tangi, just said, development is an indivisible whole.
For example, in the area of birth control or family planning, you know the experiments that were attempted in China and India. An attempt was made to impose planned procreation on families by telling them that they were entitled to one child. It did not work. Not only did this coercive method traumatize people, it also did not work.
In Tunisia, on the other hand, we introduced this policy in 1960. The family planning policy began producing results 40 years later. It was not through the force of the legislation or government force, but through persuasion and education; women eventually understood, especially young women living in remote rural areas who have been educated. These young women ultimately understood, after going to school and university, that it was in their interest and for their own physical and mental well-being not to have a lot of children.
Senator Prud'homme: And the boys —
Mr. Saad: The boys of course, but especially the young women. The women are very important because they make up over 50 per cent of the population. If you write women off in any society, you can be sure that no society would agree to being one-legged and the result would be known.
So that is how, by addressing all sectors of society, and especially by educating women and men, it came to be that the current rate of demographic growth in Tunisia is in the order of roughly one. That is the result, as my Moroccan colleague said, of an overall policy that made it possible to achieve this result. So we have some expertise and we can work together.
It begins with cooperation and ends in partnership. All together — it is what we customarily call tripartite cooperation — we can work and spread the right message and the good word in these African countries.
The Chairman: It is already 6:40 p.m. and other senators would like to ask questions. So I will be a bit more conscious of the time passing.
[English]
Senator Prud'homme: On a point of order, just to make you feel at ease, I do not think every ambassador has to answer every question. One could answer. I do not wish to take any time away from the others.
The Chairman: I understand. It was inevitably bound to happen, Senator Prud'homme. It was as inevitable as whatever day tomorrow will be.
[Translation]
Mr. Ben Deddach: I would say that the first thing we might ask honourable senators here is to potentially contribute through ongoing action with the Government of Canada in order to correct certain aspects of the foreign policy review when it reaches completion, i.e., when the next foreign policy review takes place.
Canada is a country that makes a great contribution and has an important role to play in the world and an extraordinary influence in each of our countries. So much so that we are overwhelmed with requests from students who want to come here to Canada to continue their education, that is how well regarded and appreciated Canada is in our countries. You could perhaps point out that it is rather surprising, given what I have just said, that Canada could overlook the entire group of the Maghreb countries.
If I confine myself to the Maghreb group, for example, to say nothing of the entire group of Arab League states, we see that none of them is among the 25 countries on which Canada focuses its assistance funds. That, in my view, is a concrete point.
My colleagues will probably join with me in requesting your support during the next Canadian foreign policy review. I by no means mean to criticize the Government of Canada's policy. Canada is totally sovereign in setting its priorities at any particular time. However, we feel that this part of the world deserves some interest, if only by taking one or two states and including them among the core countries — and I will plead on behalf of my country, which is so much in need of that.
The Chairman: We are going to study the new policy. We are actually discussing the timing of that study. It is a matter of time.
[English]
Senator Di Nino: Let me welcome all of you here. We had an opportunity to chat several weeks ago, and I am delighted to see all of you here. Thank you for coming.
I have a couple of quick questions. When I was doing my research, I was actually surprised that the trade and investment relations between your five countries and our country is very low — surprisingly so. Frankly, other than the great gain by Canada through the immigration from your countries, we have to find a way to do better because of all the good reasons that all of you have mentioned, and I will not repeat them. That is a quick comment.
I have two questions. I will put them both and any of you can answer.
The Chairman: Do you want to direct them at anyone?
Senator Di Nino: Not necessarily.
The Chairman: It would help if you did.
Senator Di Nino: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let us say the first two.
We talk about the failure that the countries that have come to the aid of Africa have created. We have talked to nearly 100 witnesses so far, and I think a general conclusion is that we have failed in our attempts to help the continent. We have a variety of different opinions as to why that is, and I would be interested in your comments, specifically in two areas. What role should the United Nations play, and to what degree do you think is appropriate, in directing those issues that Africa is dealing with today? As well, we heard continuously that the intervention of the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank have been, I think it is fair to say, soundly rejected by the Sub-Saharan African nations to whom we have talked, to the degree that most of them have suggested it has been a negative rather than a positive intervention.
[Translation]
Mr. Yousfi: I do not think the level of trade is low, compared to other regions. The level of trade between our countries and Canada is actually quite significant. With Algeria alone, the trade is in excess of US $3 billion, which is not insignificant.
Second, I am not fully convinced about the point you made that aid to the African continent appears to have failed. We should all think about that. My colleagues may testify that Canadian aid to our countries, in specific areas such as professional training and assistance to the private sector, has been a success. That aid has made a meaningful contribution to progress in certain areas. Canada's assistance, for example, with economic transformation or in periods of economic transition has not been a failure. On the contrary, it has had positive effects.
My colleague, Mr. Mohamed Tangi, referred to technological transfer. When the assistance is carefully studied and well targeted with the partners involved, it is a success. However, if you go into countries where you do not know which area to get into, the assistance may be destined to fail. The triangular partnership that was mentioned might be a solution.
The scale of problems in Africa is at times so overwhelming that the aid may look like a drop in the ocean. So that drop has to be a bit bigger and has to specifically target the spot where it might fall to fertilize the earth. It has to fall on the oasis to fertilize it. A tiny drop of water in the ocean may indeed be wasted.
I do not entirely agree that everything that has been done was necessarily a failure. I know that a number of NGOs claim that the aid provided falls partly or wholly into corrupt hands. That may happen.
[English]
Senator Di Nino: May I clarify? I was not really talking about Canada's contribution; I am talking about the world's contribution. It is not my opinion. It is the opinion of a large number of our witnesses who have in effect agreed that poverty is worse now than it was 50 years ago. Half of the countries that were self-sufficient in food have to rely on food aid today to be able to feed themselves. It is the world at large as opposed to Canada itself, because I agree with you that Canada has probably done better than most.
[Translation]
Mr. Saad: I do think that is an important question. I do not think Canada is at issue. Canada, like other donor countries, has helped Africa a lot. I have visited several African countries, and the problem, in my view, is a management problem. Do they have the ability to manage the public sector and public funds properly? That is the whole question. If you have that ability, you are going to succeed. And I think the countries of Northern Africa are a good example. That is why our countries are considered to have intermediate income and to be emerging countries. If you look at the results of Canadian aid, you will see that it has been well used. It was very useful and enabled us to move forward.
But the aid also requires good governance. It requires the structures needed to set up and run development programs.
With respect to relations between Canada and North Africa, if I confine myself to Tunisia, our two-way trade is at around $500 million.
The Chairman: Trade?
Mr. Saad: That is right, trade between the two countries.
That is a good example of success because our countries have moved beyond the aid or assistance mentality to another mentality, the partnership mentality, which is based on the two pillars, the two notions of trade and investment. You have done your part in terms of trade. I think that is only fair. We have been helped by Canada. Today, we have the means to trade. So we already have one foot in this new mentality, this new partnership relationship. The investment remains to come. And we do not see it coming. Our Canadian friends, the Canadian private sector, Canadian businesses, will have to take a bit of a look on the other side, across to Africa. I think we are ready to enter into this new relationship, and already we have success stories about businesses that were created through this partnership and that are working.
So we see some successes on the ground from this new type of relationship that is taking shape and will take some time. We are changing mentalities. We are changing our behaviour and mentality. And Canada has a lot to do with this change in mentality thanks to the Private Sector Development Fund that Canada set up for the Maghreb countries, which has actually enabled us to move forward together and build this new relationship. We can be inventive, and that has been the case.
The scope of progress is definitely significant. There are some very encouraging signs. Also, we must not overlook the human flows between the Maghreb and Canada. There are Maghrebian immigrants coming to Canada, but we also get tourists every year. And in significant numbers. At least 60,000 to 70,000, and the number is bound to increase. That makes it possible to create ties and it generates quite considerable revenue. I am not talking about the students who are there, who help us build bridges between Canada and the Maghreb. These people need to be encouraged. I think they are doing a good job.
To conclude, you mentioned the IMF and the World Bank. I think we are pleased with what the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund have done. We have worked well for years. It is true that we cooperate, we dialogue, but we are always the ones who take on our responsibilities and make our decisions. The two international financial institutions help us. They are among our best and main financial backers.
To come back to my first answer, it is all a matter of good management and good governance.
[English]
Mr. Tangi: I wish to bring forward additional information regarding the question raised by Senator Di Nino.
The levels of trade and investment might seem low right now. For instance, the volume of trade between the Kingdom of Morocco and Canada is about $300 million. However, during the last few months we have witnessed positive signs of investment from Canadian firms in Morocco, in particular in the field of mining, energy and telecommunications. We are looking to increase that. It is in our interest to diversify our economic partners. It is also in your interest to have your eggs in different baskets.
With regard to immigration, you are right; we have a very young population in all our countries. More than 60 per cent of the population is less than 25 years old. Many of these young people are very qualified, and Canada is their dream. We are free countries. If they are happy in Morocco, they are welcome to stay. If they feel they can be happier elsewhere, so much the better.
With regard to aid in Africa, I wish to testify to the contrary of previous comments. I do not know of a single cooperation project in Morocco, nor in any of our North African countries, that has failed. When you visit Morocco next fall, if you join the chairman in his visit, you will be very proud to see the projects. They are showcases.
[Translation]
They are showcases of the successful cooperation between Canada and our countries.
[English]
I heard what was said about the World Bank and the IMF. They come to us with drastic measures, and sometimes the solutions have unwelcome effects. Nevertheless, as my colleague, the Ambassador of Tunisia has stated, as far as Morocco is concerned, those two bodies did help us in our structural adjustment program, which was necessary for our finances, at a certain cost. Right now, we are trying to solve the negative social side effects of some of the financial and economic measures that they recommended to us and that we have implemented.
I am optimistic about the future. Once again, I wish to support the solution regarding the failure of aid in other countries besides ours with two suggestions: first, a comprehensive approach; and, second, our availability. From our experience in the field, because we have been through it, working jointly with Canada to make aid available in Africa will hopefully evolve quickly to make partnership as successful as possible.
[Translation]
Mr. Ben Deddach: What I wanted to say about international aid and the role of international monetary institutions, as was mentioned, is that this aid has been indispensable to our countries. Naturally, it has a certain number of conditions attached that are at times draconian. For some 20 or 30 years, we could not recruit workers or maintain the prices of certain raw materials and we had to let the prices rise.
Generally speaking, the African countries have attempted, each according to its own means and methods of governance, to adjust to these conditions because the aid was indispensable. Many African countries might not have had balanced budgets were it not for this aid from international monetary institutions. However, it did create problems in some countries.
The right balance has to be struck between the banker mentality and the economic development mentality. According to the banker mentality, when monetary institutions lend money, that money has to be repaid. The conditions to ensure that the money flows back into the coffers of international monetary institutions are those draconian measures attached to any structural adjustment policy in any country. They wreak havoc in society, and that is obvious, but it does not mean that the contributions were not important and pivotal, and that countries like mine managed to find a framework within which to work with those monetary institutions. If you look at any study done by those monetary institutions, Mauritania is ranked among the countries that are the most compliant with the structural adjustment policy. That is why we have been classified as one of the countries to benefit from debt reduction, because that all depends on stability, good governance and domestic policy. Those parameters also play a role.
Now, I would suggest to senators, if they have a say in the development of any new international aid policy, be it under the United Nations or through the Bretton Woods institutions, that the development mentality should prevail over the banker mentality. If you want to help, you have to be generous. There are certain criteria that are particularly difficult for society that should not remain unchanged for 30 years. An effort should be made to come up with criteria that go much further toward promoting development. That is why, when the last G8 decided to cancel the debt of the international monetary institutions for 18 countries, with the possible addition of nine others, that was met with rather mixed reaction in Africa. Everyone was happy, especially the countries in question, but there is a fear that this might have consequences for aid to come. Might not it be said that these countries were insolvent or that fewer means should be made available to them?
Attempts must still be made to help these countries, to give them loans, while finding measures so as to avoid wreaking havoc in society, sparking revolts here and there in certain third world countries.
[English]
The Chairman: I am afraid I will not have time for anyone else. Senator Grafstein, it is already five minutes past seven.
Senator Grafstein: I have sat here and listened to other senators. I have worked on this topic, and I want to talk to the ambassadors about this.
The Chairman: As soon as we have His Excellency Ali Jarrud respond, Senator Grafstein, you will have an opportunity.
Mr. Jarrud: On July 4 and 5, next month, the ordinary summit of the African Union will be held in Tripoli. It will be an important summit. It will be attended by most African heads of state. The summit will have a heavy agenda. Libya will be the president or the chairman of the summit for the next year. I hope that Canada can be represented in this conference at the highest level possible because of the high concern of Canada regarding African issues, and the support and the assistance Canada gives to African nations, which is evident to all of us. As I told you, Canada has an excellent reputation in the African countries because it is a country that does not have a colonial past; it is a country that is dedicated to human rights protection and humanitarian aid; and it is a peace-keeping country.
The Chairman: Thank you.
Senator Grafstein: I did not mean to be rude.
The Chairman: It is not that, but we have five witnesses.
Senator Prud'homme: It is important. Half an hour will not kill us.
Senator Grafstein: I want to welcome all the excellencies. This topic is important for us. Rather than focusing on Africa, I would like to focus on the Mediterranean states. This is not to be disrespectful to his Excellency from Mauritania, but I would like to talk about the others in the time limited to me.
The Chairman: Go ahead. This is an Africa study.
Senator Grafstein: This is North Africa.
I had an opportunity to meet with the trade and economic ministers of all your countries at Wilton Park last year when we talked about economic reform in the Arab Middle East, focusing on North Africa. That study was based on the reports of the United Nations. I am sure you have all read the UN reports on Arab human development in 2002-03; then the UN world public sector report on E-governance in 2005; and then the reports of the economic forum of Arab countries, Iran and Turkey, under the excellent leadership of a colleague of ours in Cairo. This will all be on the record. You will have an opportunity to respond more fully in writing.
The Chairman: I would like to remind you that Iran and Turkey are not Arab countries.
Senator Grafstein: They were involved in the economic forum for Arab countries, and the forum included Iran and Turkey because they were part of the Mediterranean base. I understand the difference.
The result of these studies was some startling conclusions. They agreed with His Excellency from Morocco that the region in the world that was hurt most after September 11 was the Arab Middle East, and essentially North Africa. Why? It was because economic development ground to a halt. The statistics that the World Bank put out was that foreign direct investment in the world dropped from about one per cent in 1990 to less than half a per cent. There was a 50 per cent drop in direct investment in ten years. Therefore, the conclusion is that unemployment rates in the area are rampant, and there would have be to be at least 100 million new jobs in the next ten years, or 10 million jobs each year, just to keep up with the current demand in your countries. If you add Mauritania, it would be even higher than that.
Last year, the G8 resolved to do three things. One was to accelerate intra-trade as a free trade zone. My first question is, what has happened with that proposal? In other words, where are your countries now in terms of your agreement for intra-trade amongst yourselves?
You will recall there have been a number of summits — the Sanna summit, the G8 summit and the Jordanian summit — in the last three or four years all directed to three issues: more direct investment, more intraregional trade, and then ultimately free trade with the EU and America. Where do we stand on all that? In other words, has progress been made since the G8 said that this would be a priority? Has the G8 accomplished what it was supposed to do? Have your countries done what you agreed to do, which was to move quickly towards modernization to be prepared for free trade.
Morocco has entered into a free trade agreement with the United States. I have urged our government to enter into a free trade agreement with Morocco on a similar basis, and there has been no interest on the part of our government to do that.
Mr. Tangi: It is true that one of the weaknesses of our region is intratrade. This weakness is for historical reasons. Trade routes have always been north-south. We are working hard on that. We have opened a border with Mauritania, and are building a road. To our great surprise, the trade between the neighbouring cities on one side and the other of the border increased in nine months by about 1300 per cent, and all that thanks to the road that was built. It is a physical problem, but that was settled.
Regarding the free trade agreements, we have also concluded a free trade agreement between Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, and Jordan. These countries form the Agadir group. This free trade agreement is open-ended to all the southern Mediterranean shore countries.
In my earlier intervention, I said we are looking to diversification of our economic relations. It is in this spirit that we concluded a free trade agreement with the United States last year. This free trade agreement has already been approved by the American Congress and is operational. Mr. Chairman, we would be more than happy to conclude a free trade agreement with Canada.
As a matter of fact, His Majesty King Mohammed VI, in the last speech from the throne in July 2004, mentioned that he would like Canada to become a strategic partner.
Senator Grafstein: I have a brief comment on the free trade.
The Chairman: There are other witnesses who would like to answer.
[Translation]
Mr. Yousfi: I would like to thank Senator Grafstein for his comments. We have had the opportunity to exchange a few ideas on that. First, in terms of investment, we hope that Canada will join with us in modernizing our legislation and what to provide companies to attract more investment. We are in that process currently. We may not really know how to go about it. We would appreciate your help. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to tell you an anecdote that demonstrates how difficult it is to attract that investment.
I went to go see the President of the large company called ENI and I talked to him about the possibility of investing in North Africa, particularly in my country, in the area of petrochemistry and fertilizers. Like many other countries in the region, we have gas and phosphate reserves and we would hope to enhance their value and invest in fertilizers and petrochemistry. The President of ENI said to me the following, ``If I do that, I will be shot down because I am in the midst of shutting down all fertilizer and petrochemistry units in the South of Italy, in Sicily and Sardinia. If I invest in North Africa and lose the market for the Italian industries, I will be dead.''
Therefore, unfortunately, there is still this mentality among many countries who consider the Maghreb countries as a market and not as a partner with whom to invest. Unfortunately, for European countries and certain countries, the Malaysians, the Chinese and the Australians are the ones investing, and not the Europeans for domestic reasons and other difficulties. Look at what is happening at the moment with China, and the difficulties that a certain number of Maghreb countries are facing in their textile industry. It is not one-sided. An investment is built on partnership. It takes two to tango. Perhaps we don't know the steps, but the others are not even asking us to set foot on the dance floor.
Second, with respect to trade agreements, we entered a free-trade agreement with the European Union. I asked the Europeans, ``Do you want to be partners with us or do you consider us as trade colonies?'' We must see if they want to accompany us. It is expected that they will accompany us and modernize our production machinery in order to avoid an invasion of European products without anything in exchange. That is what partnership is about. It is not simply a matter of signing a piece of paper. We have signed papers. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of us, we do not see European investments coming because we signed a free trade agreement.
We would like to enter the same type of free trade agreements with the United States — many of us are currently in negotiations — or with Canada. I noticed that Canada is about to conclude free trade agreements with Asian countries and not the Maghreb countries. I do not know why this is.
With respect to trade amongst the Maghreb countries, we are forging commercial ties one small step at a time, with a few hitches here and there. There are advances and there are setbacks, but there is a real willingness on the part of Maghreb countries to build a strong and cohesive entity. Perhaps we moved to quickly. We need to take one step at a time. There is willingness to do so, and we are going to do so.
When the conditions are right, we move relatively quickly. In a matter of years, South Africa and Algeria have become the leading partners on the continent because of the political willpower that existed. Things matured, and conditions were conducive to move in this direction. Once again, commercial exchanges do not exist by virtue of signing contracts. There are agreements between Arab countries and other countries of the region to create a free trade zone. There are other conditions. We are all in the process of emerging. We do not find ourselves with a surplus in order to trade products. That is one way for me to answer your question, thank you.
Mr. Saad: The meeting is drawing to an end, and the best is usually saved for last. Here is an excellent issue to discuss. Senator, earlier you alluded to economic relations between the Maghreb countries, the Barcelona process, and relations with North America.
These are extremely important issues. All countries of the Maghrab hope to have privileged relations with North America, aside from their relations with Europe, for reasons that are all at once historical, economic, cultural and political. Similar to relations between Canada and the United States, we have relations with Europe, which are forged naturally, without any problems.
Obviously, we have all concluded free trade agreements with Europe; however, since Tunisia was the first to sign on with Europe, it is only in 2008 that we will finally have a full-fledged free-trade zone. Therefore, in three years, trade between Tunisia and Europe will be absolutely free, as it will with other Maghreb countries.
Not only have we concluded a free trade agreement, but we also have an association agreement with Europe. Last year, we took one further step ahead by signing on to a European Neighbourhood policy which strengthens relations between the Maghreb countries and Europe.
It must be said that the Europeans are investing; in Maghreb, they are even investing massively. In fact, these investments spur more viable and sustainable relations. A relation cannot be based strictly upon trade. We work as partners, friends, and you asked us to speak frankly. For our part, we came with the intention of speaking frankly. That has never been a problem with Canada, it is not recent.
That is where the issue lies, because ultimately it is a relation of solidarity. If we want to eradicate poverty and misery, beyond all forms of extremism, whether it be religious or political, in order to put an end to violence, there is no better remedy than development. Development is achieved through the creation of wealth, which in turn is created through trade and investment.
Certain countries measure their relations with any other given country strictly in terms of commercial ties. A relationship is not based only on trade, as important as trade is. Trade is not all and end all, what is important is investment. That is the reason why we are fighting to have privileged relations with Canada. We want Canada, it is our choice, no one forced us to enter into a relation with Canada. That is our wish, it is as simple as that. However, wanting is not enough — can we go about it alone?
That is why we are here to talk to you today about privileged relations and partnership. To be partners, there has to be two players. That is the secret and the heart of the matter.
In discussing free trade zones with Canada — we have done so on several occasions — five countries got together and created the Group of Maghreb Countries. We have also made commitments under the UMA — the Union of Maghreb Countries — that is similar to your association with the United States and Mexico. We invited Canadian officials to exchange views, have discussions, put forth ideas, and hear their opinions.
We had very much hoped that the Maghreb would figure in your new International Policy Review. Unfortunately, as Sister Anne said, I saw nothing coming.
Thank you, senator, for your question, and allowing me the precious opportunity to speak to you about the heart of the matter.
[English]
Senator Grafstein: To assist you, Ambassador, Canada is a member of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, OSCE. The OSCE declared economic cooperation of the Mediterranean dimension, which includes everything I just talked about. We have fallen behind in our commitments to fulfill that declaration.
The Chairman: I have to intervene. It will be 7:30 in a minute. Please proceed, Mr. Saad.
[Translation]
Mr. Saad: I believe that we have touched upon the root of the problem. Between Maghreb countries, things function seamlessly and naturally. In 1956, I served as Ambassador to Morocco and I witnessed the very first agreement to establish free flow of goods and people between the countries of the Maghreb, in the wake of independence of different countries. It was in 1956, no visas are needed. We even have special incentives to facilitate the entry of Magheb products into the various Maghreb countries.
Obviously, in addition to the agreements, things occur naturally and if I take as an example the trade between Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria, over these past few years we have witnessed a surge in trade, which is a result of people settling on either side of these borders.
Mr. Chair, thank you for your question.
M. Ben Deddach: I just wanted to point out to the honourable Senator Grafstein that Mauritania is completely involved in anything that concerns the Mediterranean. Mauritania is a part of the Barcelona initiative, Euromed and the 5+5 Group. Mauritania was also an active member of the economic fora for the Middle East each time a forum was held either in Casablanca or in Egypt.
Even though we are not located on the shores of the Mediterranean, we are through Morocco and Algeria. As such, anything that concerns the Mediterranean is of concern to us. I also want to say that Mauritania attracts investments. It is a country that is full of many mining possibilities.
In Mauritania, there are Canadian mining companies, companies from Alberta, mining for diamonds, and other companies that are now operating in the emerging oil industry. In fact, there are interesting signs telling us that Mauritania may, near the end of the year, start exporting oil. Canadian companies are beginning to show interest, there are at least three which are involved in this process. For now, the Australians have been the first to get involved.
We are, the second country in Africa, after South Africa, to have established total free trade. I do not know if Algeria has reached the same status.
In our country, our monetary policy is free. Currency is exchanged on the market. I mean that if an investor comes to our country, he is certain of having his own money, and free to buy dollars or pounds or any other international currency being traded on the market. An intermediary such as the Central Bank of Mauritania is not needed, nor is any other bank.
I believe that Algeria is heading towards adopting a similar policy. I do not know if this has been done, but to my knowledge, when we first started, South Africa was the only country on the continent to put this monetary policy into practice. Therefore, Mauritania is a country that may possibly interest Canadian investors.
Our trade with the countries of the Maghreb is fluid, whether it be throughout the Western Sahara, Morocco or with our two Algerian brothers from our two neighbouring Maghreb countries. Trade is even more seamless with Western Africa which long before the Maghreb and the European Union, had established a free-trade zone, where only an identity card was needed for the free movement of people and goods.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
[English]
Mr. Jarrud, did you want to say anything? You have 2,000 kilometres of coastline in the Mediterranean.
Senator Prud'homme: They develop tourism.
The Chairman: I know the coast quite well, Senator Prud'homme. I have been there many times.
Senator Grafstein, it is 7:30, and out of respect to our witnesses, who have been here for two and a half hours, you have had your question and I will adjourn the meeting.
Senator Grafstein: Could I put this on the record and they can get the answer to us in writing? It is a short question, but it relates to what each one of them has said, and that is direct private investment, which is a crucial issue of growth.
Last year, the G8 agreed that there should be a network of private investments.
The International Finance Corporation, the private sector of the World Bank, proposed last year a fund of $100 million for direct private investment in your area. What has happened to it? The last I heard, the money had not been committed.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. We will now allow anyone who wants to answer to talk directly to senator Grafstein.
The committee adjourned.