Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 8 - Evidence for February 3, 2005, Afternoon meeting
REGINA, Thursday, February 3, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 12:50 p.m. to examine the current role of Canadian media industries; emerging trends and developments in these industries; the media's role, rights and responsibilities in Canadian society; and current and appropriate future policies relating thereto.
Senator David Tkachuk (Deputy Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chairman: Now that we are all settled in I will call to order the afternoon meeting here in Regina on the current state of the Canadian media, and the emerging trends and developments for these industries.
I welcome Sharon Butala and Mary Thomson to the committee. Please tell us a little bit about yourselves, as you are here as individuals, and then make your presentation.
I previously discussed this with them and found out that Sharon and I both grew up along Highway 55, which is between Prince Albert and Nipawin. For those of you who do not know, that is up in the northern part of Saskatchewan. I was just on the edge of the treeline; Sharon was into the treeline.
Ms. Sharon Butala, as an individual: I have been living on a ranch near Eastend, Saskatchewan for the last 30 years on my husband Peter Butala's family farm. I write books. I am about to have my 15th come out in March. I write about Saskatchewan rural, agricultural people for the most part, both fictional and non-fictional. My son is an actor who lives in Saskatoon with his wife and my grandchildren.
Ms. Mary Thomson, as an individual: I have just moved to Saskatchewan and this is my fifth province. I am always looking for more room and this seems like the best spot for it. I love it.
I am worried about the declining populations, the small towns folding and the lapse of community, and that is what has brought me here today.
The Deputy Chairman: This will be a very interesting perspective, then.
Ms. Butala: First of all, Ms. Thomson and I would like to thank you for inviting us to appear here today.
We come from near Eastend, which is about 50 miles from the Alberta border and 30 miles from the Montana border. The town itself has a population of about 600 people. Mary lives on the edge of Eastend; I have always lived out in the country.
Southwest Saskatchewan is an entity that we describe as being bounded on the north by the South Saskatchewan River, on the west by Alberta, on the south by Montana and, if you draw a line along the municipal boundary just past Swift Current down to the American border, you have an area of about 38,000 square kilometres. There are just under 12,000 strictly rural people, another more than 10,000 in villages and towns, and 15,000 in Swift Current, for a total of 37,000, which is roughly one person per square kilometre.
It is a very large area with a very small and scattered population. It is not one of the wealthy areas, although the oil industry is doing very well there right now.
We are represented by our MP and our MLA from the new Conservative Party of Canada, which is to say that the cast of the whole area tends to be right of centre.
We are here to talk about the newspaper, in particular, because this is what Mary and I are upset about. Our local newspaper is published in Shaunavon, 25 miles from where we live. It is a weekly and is one of the few privately owned newspapers left in the country. It covers only local affairs and is severely restricted by local mores in what it can report; that is, anybody guilty of a crime may have his or her crime described but no name is ever reported. All we ever find out is ``a 26-year-old man,'' et cetera. If we want to know, we have to rely on gossip, so it is useless; it is more social in nature.
We can buy the Regina Leader-Post in Eastend; it comes in each day on the day of publication. I live 11 miles from town and I would not bother to drive in. I do not drive 11 miles in order to get the Leader-Post. It is owned by CanWest Global, as I am sure you are aware, as is the Saskatoon StarPhoenix.
We can also pick up on the day of publication, in Eastend, the National Post, also owned by CanWest Global and a right-of-centre paper, which means I read no daily newspapers.
We cannot buy the only other national newspaper, The Globe and Mail, anywhere south of the TransCanada Highway. You can buy it in Swift Current. Mary tells me you can buy it in Maple Creek, which is right on the highway. The rest of us used to be able to get that newspaper; three years ago we stopped being able to. This seems extremely mysterious to us, given the various explanations we have received as to why we can no longer get it.
Before the National Post and its countrywide blitz, instituted when it was a Hollinger newspaper, we could buy The Globe and Mail, a day-old paper, by driving to Shaunavon. There are only a few of us who want that paper and we were willing to do that. However, about three years ago, suddenly we could no longer get The Globe and Mail. We made inquiries and were told that the Saskatchewan Transportation Company had so raised the rates and so few people in the area wanted that newspaper that it was prohibitive in terms of cost for merchants to bring it in. However, they continued to bring in the Leader-Post and also the National Post on the day of publication.
We were told that if they were able to bring in The Globe and Mail, it would be two days late, even though the National Post arrives on the same day. The National Post and Leader-Post are owned by the same company and they are more widely read; perhaps that is why they can afford what we were told are the prohibitive rates to bring in The Globe and Mail.
What I object to about this is the result, whatever the explanation might be for our inability to get a daily paper that is not right of centre, that people in Southwest Saskatchewan can only get daily print news through CanWest Global. CanWest Global, therefore, not only satisfies the opinions of the majority, but tends to reinforce and to renew them. There is no alternative, authoritative voice available to us. When I have finished, Ms. Thomson will tell you about her struggle when she went on a quest.
If we give up on the print medium as a source of immediate and authoritative news, as most of us have done, we have to then rely on weeklies or monthlies to which we subscribe. In the case of our household it is Maclean's magazine, which comes by mail far later than urban people can pick it up on newsstands in the city. Immediate news coverage through the print medium is simply impossible; we just do not get it.
Radio is one alternative; however, we can get almost no FM radio in Southwest Saskatchewan. We can get CBC Radio One, which is AM radio, and a commercial station from Swift Current that focuses on agricultural and country life; it also has phone-in shows and sells items by radio.
We get our weather reports mostly off the television nowadays, because it is vital in an agricultural community to know what is happening with the weather. We used to have to get reports out of Montana, because everything in Saskatchewan was unreliable.
Television we have to pay for: We have to buy a satellite antenna and buy our programming. We can get at our home CBC television from Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, and the other night I watched Thunder Bay and Prince George television. We cannot get CBC television from Regina or Saskatoon; that is, local CBC. We can get local CTV that is from Regina. If we want news then we go first to the BBC television, to Newsworld second, and third to CNN. For tsunami reporting, for example, for us the best news came from the BBC.
It turns out that it is also possible to get radio from around the country off the satellite antenna by turning on our television set and programming it for the radio stations. However, they are not local stations either, and we have never used it. One can get Edmonton, Toronto, and so on.
The third alternative remaining is the Internet. I live right out in the country and I cannot get high-speed Internet at all. Dial-up service is far too slow to read a newspaper that way, and the newspaper coverage is not the same as the coverage you would get if you bought the newspaper on a newsstand. Besides, most of us cannot afford to have a second phone line put in so that we do not block our regular phone line every time we turn on our computers. Also, of course, most of us would never choose to read a newspaper on the Internet as that is not the way we do it customarily. Besides that, the costs associated with reading a newspaper on the Internet would be far higher than that of buying a daily newspaper as you would in the city.
Rural people are nothing if not resourceful, and we do manage to keep up reasonably well with immediate news coverage by relying on CBC Radio One, supplemented by television news. However, we resent very much the fact that we cannot get a daily paper that is national, authoritative, well-written, interesting, complete and immediate while not also right of centre.
We think that this is a larger issue than merely the disgruntlement of a handful of people out of step politically with the people of their own region. Opinions cannot change or be enlightened by other views if the only daily print news available comes from one source that insists on one point of view about events. The free and equal availability of a range of opinions is surely a basic tenet and a basic right of a democratic society.
Ms. Thomson: Since moving to Saskatchewan almost two years ago I have been so moved by seeing the small communities shrink, seeing that they are a tremendous resource that we will lose. I think increased access to media is one way to attract people to them, and it is also a right. Therefore, I am addressing your third question: Are communities, minorities and remote centres adequately served?
I believe that rural communities are not adequately served. We require more than adequate service; we deserve access equal to that of any other segment of Canadian society. Your phrase ``remote centres,'' implies more than geographical isolation. Technological and other delivery means now exist across the country; where costs are higher they should be subsidized to put all Canadians on an even playing field.
Rural communities are in desperate need of revitalization; populations are aging and shrinking. Young people are not staying in or moving to small communities. The disappearance of these communities, I believe, will have more drastic consequences for Canadian society than is presently possible to imagine. The revitalization of these small towns will help to put a larger segment of society in touch with agriculture and nature, both of which are vital to our country's future.
Equal access to news and information is a vital tool in attracting young families to move here. These people would be more willing to move if the stigma of being remote and out of touch could be replaced by the knowledge that they have the access to news and information that they are accustomed to in larger centres.
Our communities have much to offer. Children can grow up in a secure and healthy environment. In rural societies generations seamlessly blend. Teenagers are comfortable with seniors and children and not needily bound to their peers. They grow up away from the feverish consumerism which is such a conspicuous part of city life. Children who grow up here are resourceful, resilient, confident and independent, truly the sort of future citizens worth considerable investment.
Senator Munson: As I sat listening, I was back in the 1950s in Northern New Brunswick, where I originally came from, in terms of your description of getting access to media.
First of all, how many people are we talking about who are being denied the access to other forms of media besides the National Post and Regina Leader-Post and getting them a day late?
Ms. Butala: If you take the 37,000 people and subtract Swift Current and Maple Creek, that is at least 20,000 people.
Senator Munson: Normally, people do not like to hear the word ``regulation.'' Do you have any suggestions for this committee about how to enforce some sort of regulation through CRTC so that you do get access to, at the bare minimum, CBC Regina at least? I am just astounded that you cannot get a copy of The Globe and Mail.
I remember talking to a friend of mine in Newfoundland. He lived outside of Gander for a long while and then moved to Ottawa. He came back to the local community and looked for The Globe and Mail. He walked in and said he would like to have a copy of The Globe and Mail, and was told, ``All sold out. All sold out.''
``Well, how many do you get a day?'' he asked.
``One,'' was the reply. Similar circumstances are happening across the country.
First of all, please speak on the topic of the CRTC and regulations making sure that people in your area get access to, at a bare minimum, CBC Regina.
Ms. Thomson: I do not know if we know the answer to that. Perhaps we have not done as much homework as we could have. With The Globe and Mail, I am unsure where the ball stops. Is it with the distributor? Is it a partisan distributor? Is it the National Post's distributor? I thought the distributor brought every magazine to the newsstand, but I do not know about that and should have found out.
The Deputy Chairman: Have you talked to The Globe and Mail?
Ms. Thomson: Yes, I have. Of course, you are talking to some girl on the telephone. She told me that there was no problem and that if someone who had an agent's licence wanted one copy a week or a day, that would be fine, it would come. I did not think to ask if it would come on the right day because I presumed, as the others did, that it would. However, we have learned since that it does not.
Senator Munson: With television, part of our mandate is to make recommendations on the role of the CRTC. I am just curious whether or not you feel strongly that we should have a recommendation that each and every community in this country has to be served by the national broadcaster. It is a fundamental right, it seems to me, whether you are left wing, right wing or playing centre.
Ms. Butala: I think we would certainly agree with you about that. I did not call the CBC regional manager and ask him why we do not get it off our satellite dish. I know we can get CTV Regina, but I much prefer the CBC. I do not know if people can receive it on cable in town. Can they?
Ms. Thomson: I do not know.
Ms. Butala: Neither of us has cable.
The Deputy Chairman: Does Swift Current have a television station?
Ms. Butala: They used to and it was a CBC affiliate; however, it closed down a couple of years ago now. When I first went there to live 30 years ago, you had an antenna as tall as you could get it in your yard. You would have to go outside and turn it around, and then you could pick up the CBC feeder station from Swift Current and a CTV station from somewhere; I do not know where it came from.
The Deputy Chairman: I think it came from Regina. They just bounced it off in Swift Current.
Senator Munson: What is the weather like in Halifax, since you can get Halifax?
Ms. Butala: Oh, I would not be too concerned about that.
Senator Munson: I just wondered. I think it is absolutely bizarre.
Ms. Butala: First of all, we do not have the resources to really find out why we cannot get The Globe and Mail.
The Deputy Chairman: We will.
Ms. Butala: We can only report to you what our problem is and ask you to carry on with finding out why, what the real reason is, because we are not sure we have been told. If it is, indeed, a case of not enough people wanting the paper and the freight rates being too high, then we would say it should be subsidized so that merchants would bring it in. Mary went all over the place and found a merchant in Eastend who said he would carry it if we could get them to send it to us.
Ms. Thomson: We had to round up five committed people for a month just for the Saturday issue, just to get our foot in the door. When it turned out that we would not get it on Saturday, I lost interest because I thought I could probably subscribe by mail and maybe even get it on Monday. I sort of threw up my hands at that point.
Senator Carney: The witnesses and I were talking about this before the hearing. I pointed out that my island community of 300 people, which is quite inaccessible, gets five newspapers a day except on Saturday, because our delivery is by mail boat and the mail boat does not come in. The point is that you could say some rural communities are over-served and others are under-served, and there does not seem to be any equality of policy about access.
I want to just nail it down. It seems that the two media services that you would like and cannot get are the national Globe and Mail, your alternative voice, and the CBC local Regina station. You are missing local CBC news and an alternative newspaper opinion — a diversity of opinion?
Ms. Butala: Yes. We also cannot get FM radio except for a religious station from Montana.
Senator Carney: FM radio has by its nature a very small footprint; therefore, that would not be unusual if you could not get FM radio. You cannot get FM radio outside urban centres in many places in Canada because of the nature of the media.
Nationally, we are looking at a lack of local CBC and diversity of opinion. Actually, when you talk about cost, every person either pays a cable fee in town or they pay a satellite fee in rural areas; I pay both and they are about the same. In terms of access there is equality of cost, in that you either get it by cable for $44 a month or you get it by satellite for $44 a month — something like that. Actually, cable in town is a little more expensive in Western Canada.
Surely, there should be a way that you can get local CBC.
The Deputy Chairman: I think, Mary, you had mentioned cable. I was about to ask the question: Do you have access to cable?
Ms. Butala: Not outside of town.
The Deputy Chairman: But in town you have cable and you can get CBC on cable?
Ms. Butala: This we do not know because neither of us has cable.
The Deputy Chairman: At least the southern part of the province gets Regina CBC and in the northern part of the province we get Saskatoon CBC.
Senator Carney: There should be a way. It is probably a technical problem that they cannot get CBC Regina on the satellite, because they get everything else.
The Deputy Chairman: What you cannot get is Global on cable in the south.
Senator Carney: Let us be very clear here. In rural areas you will not get cable.
The Deputy Chairman: I just asked the question about the town of Eastend. In the town they can get cable. In the rural area they cannot, but they can get satellite. I just wanted to make sure we all understood that outside the town of Eastend is what we are talking about.
Senator Carney: The issue is diversity of service and access to local news. We are talking about Regina CBC, and we are talking about the lack of an alternative national paper.
I do not know why you do not get CBC Regina. That may be just a technical issue with the satellite, and certainly we could find that out.
On the issue of The Globe and Mail you are talking about a subsidy. Could you tell me a little bit more about what you think should be subsidized, because there are a lot of newspapers out there and I can see people saying, ``We should have the Winnipeg Free Press,'' or ``We should have a Thomson paper,'' or ``We should have a range of diverse opinions.'' Could you explore what should be subsidized?
I understand very clearly your issue of diversity of viewpoint. What do you think should be subsidized?
Ms. Thomson: It seems to me that it is the transportation that is the problem and that is what needs to be subsidized. We have to have the access.
I feel similarly about the Internet. You are telling me, and it is true, that it is $44 per month, as it is for us, but I think little communities like this deserve a break. There are no jobs, which is the reason why people are leaving, but if there are people who can make a living with their computer in their home and want to move there, I think they deserve to get it for less.
Senator Carney: That leads me to something very important on your point. The Government of Canada has been trying to extend wireless Internet to small communities. B.C. has the same problem. Sometimes, just technically, you cannot get dial-up. Telecommunication services are extremely poor. It could be useful for our committee to explore the acceleration of wireless service to small communities.
That is an existing policy and it probably just means spending more money to ensure that if you can get wireless service, you do get access through the Internet to The Globe and Mail and other services, including a whole lot more than newspapers.
Would you agree with me that extending the wireless service of the Internet to smaller communities would be helpful in terms of extending the reach?
Ms. Thomson: We have high-speed Internet in the town.
Ms. Butala: I cannot get it.
Ms. Thomson: Now there are satellite possibilities for people who live outside the town limits, but it is horrendously expensive.
Senator Carney: The government is trying to extend the wireless service. Would that be something that would be helpful to you?
Ms. Thomson: Absolutely.
Senator Carney: That is my first round of questioning. We have at least zeroed in on what it is that we could suggest that would be helpful to you.
The Deputy Chairman: They just got individualized service 20 years ago in Saskatchewan.
Senator Carney: He means no party lines. I had a party line on Saturna Island and the fisherman who shared it with me told me once when I was talking during the week, ``Pat, get off the phone. You weekenders,'' which I was at that time, ``get to use the phone on weekends, and we islanders get to use the phone during the week.'' That was the standard of communications out of Saturna Island.
Senator Merchant: I have not too much to ask that has not already been asked. As I travel through Saskatchewan to larger centres such as Weyburn and Estevan and Prince Albert and North Battleford, it seems to me interesting that, when I go down to the front desk at the hotel, only the National Post is available. I do not know what is happening. Now that I am going back and forth to Ottawa a lot and I am travelling to other areas, it is always The Globe and Mail that is at the door outside my room. Perhaps it is here too; I am not sure what you got this morning. In all other places here in Saskatchewan the National Post seems to be pervasive.
Ms. Butala: That is our impression too.
Senator Merchant: I do not know why it is that the merchants have decided that that is the paper that they will carry. They do not seem to be quite as interested in The Globe and Mail. I like to read both.
Ms. Thomson: That is the mystery. On Monday I drove back from Edmonton to Eastend. I had forgotten to get The Globe and Mail on Saturday so I thought I would pick it up. I stopped at five small towns in Alberta. They all carried The Globe and Mail but they were sold out. I do not think these communities are very different in outlook from my community. There is a disconnect here; something is wrong.
Senator Merchant: I know your situation is very unique, but in another respect there is something happening. I do not know if it is public demand, because merchants will not bring it in if people will not buy it.
Ms. Butala: Exactly.
Ms. Thomson: Why are they not trying if there is a demand for it?
Ms. Butala: I was thinking, when Senator Carney was speaking about the situation on the Gulf Islands, that we know the population of the Gulf Islands swells in the summer. It is people who are more prosperous, better educated, usually, who come from urban environments. They get a diversity of opinion because they demand it. That was why I told you at the beginning who our MP and MLA are, because we live in a very conservative little corner of the country and we are served only by conservative-minded newspapers.
The Deputy Chairman: Was The Globe and Mail there before 1997?
Ms. Butala: I used to be able to get it.
The Deputy Chairman: Before the National Post there was no conservative newspaper? It was just The Globe and Mail?
Ms. Butala: That is right. We used to be able to get it in Shaunavon, which from our place is 25 miles each way.
Senator Merchant: I am not exactly sure of my facts but I believe that the National Post prints in Winnipeg and that it comes by transport to Regina. At my home I get all three papers: the Leader-Post and the other two. The Globe and Mail is not quite as reliable; some days I do not get The Globe and Mail. I do not know what happens; maybe flights do not come in. I think perhaps the proximity to Winnipeg means that things can be transported by road instead of flown. That does not explain why you are not getting CBC.
Ms. Butala: We cannot understand why the National Post can come into our area on the day of publication and The Globe and Mail cannot.
Senator Merchant: They truck it in.
Ms. Butala: The druggist I spoke to, who was the one who stopped getting it when freight rates went up, said at that time there was a western version. It was printed in Brandon, he said, south of Winnipeg.
Senator Merchant: I think you are right.
Ms. Butala: That is The Globe and Mail. By the time he got it in Shaunavon it was a day late.
Senator Merchant: With the CBC, I think because it is a public broadcaster, it should be available everywhere.
Ms. Butala: Yes. That is very strange. I have never known why that is.
Senator Merchant: Because we are subsidizing them.
Ms. Butala: The odd thing about that was I did not know what our provincial politicians looked like. I would be at events and I would not have a clue who they were because I had never seen them.
The Deputy Chairman: I think you are lucky.
Ms. Butala: Sometimes it is good to know which one is which.
Senator Merchant: That cannot be a right-wing conspiracy that you are not getting the CBC.
Ms. Butala: That one cannot. I do not know what that is about.
Senator Chaput: This is not really a question. It just adds to what the two of you have been saying.
I am from Manitoba and I live in what we call a municipality, outside of a town, similar to Saskatchewan. For television it is the same situation: The cable is in the towns; in the municipalities we have a satellite dish, and then we have to buy programs and choose whatever we want to choose. With that satellite dish you also have what I call the regular television channels. There are a few of them that come with any program that you buy.
There was a time when some of our municipalities could not get the local CBC, as you cannot get it now, but they could get the one that came from Montreal or down East. The municipalities complained and now they can get it. I do not know what they did but they put in complaints and they talked about it, and now most of them can get the local CBC. I do not know what happened but I could find out.
Regarding high-speed Internet, I do not have it at home either. It is very slow. I am in the municipality, and when I went to the town and complained about it, I was told that it was too much money for small municipalities.
I think my point is as follows: When we talk about equality of services to Canadians, we do not get equality of services in regions, in municipalities. I think that should be looked at very seriously by us because technology is the thing of the future and, if we want all Canadians to have the same access, then I think we have to look at what technology can do. It could be one of the means whereby we can really have better services, even if we choose to live in a remote community. That is all I have to say.
Senator Carney: I just want to explore that because, as I said earlier, there is a government policy to extend service. Brian Tobin was right when he was Minister of Industry and he had a program to spend a billion dollars on rolling out wireless service to all the small communities. It extends beyond just reading the newspaper; it also applies to the delivery of weather services.
The Chief Meteorologist of Canada told a senate committee that the government meteorology department, Environment Canada, is putting weather information on the Internet. The trouble is that a small community that does not have access to the Internet does not get the weather information that they desperately need, because they have no other source. If you live in town you can get all sorts of weather information from all the radio stations, et cetera, but if you live in a small community like yours, or other small communities, and the only source of weather information is on the Internet, then you have to have access to the Internet.
I think the idea of supporting wireless service to all small communities is something that would be very important to us.
My second question on this: What do young people do in your area? What do the schools do? How do they get information to the students? What do your libraries do? What are your other alternative sources of information in Eastend?
Ms. Thomson: In regard to libraries, in my experience, having lived in a small community in Alberta previous to moving here, there is no comparison. The system for interlibrary loans here is much more cumbersome and limited than the Alberta library system. It is hard not to compare, because every small community in Alberta has easy access to a ton of books.
Senator Carney: What do the schools in Eastend and your area do to get students access to information? Do you know? I am familiar with your writing so I thought you might know.
Ms. Butala: It has been a long time since I worked in the schools. I do have friends who teach in the schools. I know that one of them is an expert in long-distance education — he has a master's degree in it; that is, educating children through the Internet.
There is not a lot of money out there, so there is certainly no such thing as one computer per child in the school. There are fewer than 200 children in that school, from K to 12.
Other than that, I do not know of them having anything beyond what the community has. I should not really say because that is not authoritative.
Senator Carney: If I were the publisher of The Globe and Mail, after all the publicity you are giving them, I would hand deliver, with gold ribbons, a copy of The Globe and Mail to you every day.
Ms. Butala: Or drop it from a helicopter.
The Deputy Chairman: Are there any other questions? The next individual I would like to call is Mr. Donald Johnson.
Mr. Donald Johnson, as an individual: Senators, I will quickly brief you on who I am. I have worked as a journalist and copy editor and segment producer at Thames Television, London; Canadian Press Bureau, Montreal; the Montreal Star, the Montreal Gazette; The Vancouver Sun; the Leader-Post; and a few radio stations here and there in Ontario.
Essentially, I take the position that when you get into journalism you are not in a business, per se; you are in a public service, and anyone who gets into journalism to run a newspaper, for example, assumes a fiduciary responsibility. Senator, you were talking this morning about responsibility.
The Vancouver Sun and The Province did not cover your session in Vancouver. I take that as negligence of their fiduciary responsibility of keeping the public informed. The news media, by and large, do not cover the news media very well.
One of the reasons is what I call ``owner chill.'' I presume you are all familiar with ``libel chill;'' that is, the chilling effect of libel suits, and newspaper editors tending to pull back from being too aggressive for fear of being sued for libel. I think it costs about $3,000 just to answer a libel suit, not to defend it.
Owner chill is only known, by and large, within newsrooms. People who are retired journalists, like I am, can talk about it. What it means is that I will not be published ever again in the Leader-Post or probably The Globe and Mail.
I used to write for the op-ed page of The Globe and Mail, and the op-ed page of the Leader-Post when they had a budget for it, which they do not have any more. The Globe and Mail guy does not answer the phone any more.
The way to trigger owner chill is to pitch a story that the editor perceives will upset the owner. I will give you an example. We are in the midst of a telemarketing plague in Canada: the invasion of the supper hour. Like most Canadians I can get two or three calls a week. If you are working at The Globe and Mail and you want to get known as a troublemaker, you go and pitch the following story: ``I want to do a story about how the telephone companies are ignoring or misrepresenting the telemarketing plague.''
Of course, The Globe and Mail is owned by Bell Telephone, so the news editor says, ``Johnson, go away.''
When I worked at The Gazette in Montreal I had a police source who said that the department stores — Eaton's, Simpsons, Ogilvies, Morgans — who were big advertisers were ignoring shoplifting and just passing the cost on to the consumers.
Being very naive — this was in the 1960s and I was a very young fellow — I pitched it to the city desk as a consumer piece. Immediately, Al Palmer, who was the senior police reporter, was instructed to take me across the street to the tavern to explain the facts of life to me. One of the things you do not do is upset the advertisers. So I very quickly dropped that.
I was looking at how I might give you an illustration of owner chill. I urge you to pursue this. This is from the Royal Bank's Web site. It is in the mutual fund section and in the very, very small print, where I have the arrow, it talks about a thing called ``trailing commissions.''
Now the banks these days provide, free to most newspapers, financial advice columns written by their financial advisers. They give those columns to the newspapers. It is my belief that they ought to label this information as provided free. It is not journalism; it is advice from an outfit that has a vested interest.
I refer you to a story in The Toronto Star of February 15, 2004, ``Why the ETF message isn't getting out.'' It talks about trailing commissions. It turns out that these financial advisers are paid trailing commissions to give bad advice to their clients. It seems to me that when the Leader-Post or some other paper runs a column where the company, or the guy who is writing the column, is getting paid a trailing commission to give you advice which is against your best interests, they at least ought to put that as a rider at the bottom of the column.
I urge you to pursue that. I have given copies of this information to your clerk.
This morning I believe Senator Fraser asked what to do. Phone the op-ed page editor of The Globe and Mail and say you want to talk about your report or you want to write about your report, and see how far you get. Also, contact other media. They will not cover you nor rock the boat.
Senator Merchant: When we were out in British Columbia we were given the results of the Canadian Media Research Consortium, which was a report card on the press, and it was a failing report card. It talked about reporter bias and it talked about many, many things that I cannot remember now, of whether the public were interested in reading the newspaper; and they were not. It was really a very bad report on the media.
The interesting thing we were told in British Columbia was that there was never any mention of this study, which was done I think by York University, the University of B.C. and Laval University. Ipsos-Reid, I think, had done the polling, so it was a very well-done report. There was no mention of it anywhere in the media.
If anybody else or any other enterprise had been investigated and had received a failing report card, you can be sure that that would have been in every newspaper. However, something that may be a little bit critical of the media was never reported.
Mr. Johnson: That is correct. In the media the people who are promoted up to editor and managing editor, et cetera, understand the game and understand the tension between news, the news media and the owners. You do not get promoted if you rock that boat.
The problem is that there is no consequence to not running the story because nobody knows about it. You know about it, I know about it, but the public does not know about it.
Therefore, what I have proposed is either a press council or, as in Britain, a press commission. The press commission could take the report and buy a half page or something and run it. This is one of the things that I think you ought to consider. You have access to the news media and, for example, in the Leader-Post you could buy a quarter page and get the J-school to write a story about why this is not being covered. However, the J-school would probably lose some of their internships.
I used to talk to Jim Mackenzie all the time and he said that he was threatened with losing some of his internships if he rocked the boat too much.
Senator Carney: I apologize. I was talking to the other witnesses when you first sat down. Did you explain what Briar Patch, the magazine with which you are affiliated, is? Is it on-line or in print?
Mr. Johnson: I just gave them the story. You can get access to it on-line. It is a magazine here that runs political stuff and tends to be quite left of centre.
Senator Carney: It is not your journal?
Mr. Johnson: No.
Senator Carney: When you talk about a national press council, why would you suggest a national one, rather than press councils for all the provinces? We have been told, I think, that three provinces, including Saskatchewan, do not have provincial press councils. Would you be just as happy with provincial press councils rather than a national one?
Mr. Johnson: I spoke to the head of the Ontario Press Council and the defect there is that it is paid for by the media owners; therefore, there is a bit of tension there.
I believe that a national media body of some sort or other, funded by some funding mechanism that divorces the money from the media owners, could be effective.
Senator Carney: Like the government?
Mr. Johnson. Maybe. Or maybe some arm's-length body of some sort, but divorce the money from the owners. What this body could do, for example, is preach the value to society of good journalism. I believe that the people in the Prime Minister's office and the people in Lorne Calvert's office here believe that they can live with a poorly funded newsroom because that does not hurt them too much. They can manage the public message much more easily.
Nixon found out about a well-equipped, well-staffed, experienced, intelligent newsroom in Washington after Watergate. In my opinion, if Watergate had happened in Regina, you would have had two inches of copy about a police probe break-in, and that would be the end of it.
Senator Carney: My question is that at the end of the day it is not as important whether it is a provincial media council or a national one, as long as its funding is arm's length from the owners?
Mr. Johnson: I would prefer a national body but I will take a provincial body.
Also, I want to point out to you that Roy Romanow offered the journalists in Saskatchewan a college, much like the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and the Law Society for the lawyers, and they turned it down. I would have taken it so that journalists would have been in control of the newsrooms in this province. I do not think you are ever in danger of a Mensa meeting breaking out in the average newsroom.
Senator Carney: I will not comment on that.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: My question had to do with the national press council, so it has just about been answered, except for this: Do you see that council as some kind of an ombudsman?
Mr. Johnson: Yes. Complaints about news coverage now are usually from the public. Politicians do not ever complain, and journalists do not ever complain unless they want to lose their job.
For example, a national press council, in my opinion, ought to have the ability to take in camera complaints from working journalists. They ought to be able to request testimony about, for example, profit margins.
I bully the manager at CK Television here every so often about his newsroom budget. He actually has the nerve to tell me that his budget has been increased. You will have noticed the fellows out here this morning with television cameras. They are doing the reporting, the editing, the sound — everything. When I started in journalism there would have been a crew of three or four people. And this fellow has the nerve to say that he has increased the budget.
It seems to me that this body ought to have the ability to ask what the budget is and there ought to be some penalties for lying.
Senator Munson: The chill, as you call it — is it right across the board? All across the country? Local?
Mr. Johnson: It varies with the newsroom and the standing of the news editor. In London, when I worked on a show called the Today Show at the Aldwych, the executive producer had very high connections in the government, so he would take less guff from the owners than somebody who was relatively new and in a smaller market.
For example, Janice Dockham here has, I think, only ever worked at the Leader-Post, and she will take a lot more guff from the Aspers in Winnipeg than somebody who is a big-shot editor with some name.
Senator Munson: We have an Ethics Commissioner in the House of Commons and we may have someone in the Senate one day. Perhaps your idea of an ombudsman being someone who has teeth and clout would be a good one.
Mr. Johnson: You will notice as you travel across the country that this will not be covered. But if you ask the taxi driver, as I do, for example, ``Do you know what is happening with your tax money?''
He says, ``Oh, I dunno...''
I say, ``Do you ever read the Leader-Post?''
He says, ``Well, I...'' The strength of our democracy depends on a well-informed public, it seems to me.
The Deputy Chairman: The next witness is Kashif Ahmed, Communications Director, Muslims for Peace and Justice.
Mr. Kashif Ahmed, Communications Director, Muslims for Peace and Justice: Briefly, I am the Communications Director with Muslims for Peace and Justice, a Saskatchewan-based Muslim outreach and advocacy organization.
First of all, I would like to thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to address them on the issue of the news media in Canada. I would like to highlight some key points for the committee regarding the news media and its coverage of Islam and the Canadian Muslim community, from the perspective of the organization that I represent.
Firstly, I will speak of Canadian Muslims' insights and views about the news media, and secondly, media topics in relation to Muslims in Canada.
One year after 9/11, the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations conducted a poll of Canadian Muslims. According to the council, when asked about the Canadian media's reporting on Islam post 9/11, 55 per cent indicated that it got more biased. The CBC, The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and CTV were seen to be the most fair in their reporting. The National Post, Global, CanWest and the Ottawa Citizen were listed by respondents as being the most biased.
For some of those news outlets listed as being the most biased, unfortunately not much has changed. Just on Monday, January 31, 2005, the Canadian Islamic Congress released its sixth annual media watch study of major Canadian newspapers in 2003. This award-winning study, for a fourth year in a row, ranked the National Post as the country's leading anti-Islam, anti-Muslim newspaper for its persistent use of derogatory anti-Islamic terminology.
This pattern has troubled and disturbed many in the Canadian Muslim community. Perhaps some of the members here have had the opportunity to review this report by the CIC.
In Saskatchewan my organization had to file a complaint with the CRTC regarding persistent anti-Muslim rhetoric on a popular local news radio station heard province-wide. While we indeed treasure freedom of speech as enshrined in the Charter, we are becoming more and more concerned that this freedom is being used by some to promote a very biased and inaccurate portrayal of Canadian Muslims and Islam.
In many instances this portrayal lacks balance and opportunities to offer competing narratives. Thus, the public often gets false and disturbing images of the Canadian Muslim community and their faith.
Post 9/11, many media outlets provided space and opportunities for Muslims to offer their perspectives and narratives on critical issues. However, there are also some perpetual themes that, in fact, as reported by the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, are commonly found in CanWest-owned newspapers. These same themes were found by my organization's monitoring of some local media outlets as well.
I will briefly mention a couple of these themes. Firstly, that the Muslim community in Canada is the fifth column — militants and extremists — ready to engage in subversive behaviour and activities. These portrayals were often based on inaccurate information or dubious sources that had no roots in fact or truth. One radio station here aired a guest who claimed that a Muslim school in Canada was indoctrinating students with radical and extremist teachings. It turned out that this was simply false.
Often Canadian Muslims were characterized as being complicitly silent on terrorism, even though Muslim institutions in Canada proved the contrary on many occasions. Haroon Siddiqui of The Toronto Star described this characterization as ``a stiffer test of patriotism for Canadian Muslims.''
From my group's perspective, affected groups should have the opportunity to offer counter-narratives on key issues. Perhaps large newspapers becoming members of accredited press councils and major television networks providing their viewing public with ombudspersons would provide a more diverse marketplace of opinion.
The news media has a tremendous impact on shaping public opinion and the views of Canadians. This impact comes with responsibilities. As Senator Davey once noted in the famed Davey report:
The media's freedom is limited by its social responsibility to respect the freedom of access to informed and diverse opinion.
We hope that this statement is properly heeded. Thank you for your attention.
The Deputy Chairman: Do you think the CBC is anti-Israel?
Mr. Ahmed: No. I think the CBC is trying to offer a more balanced viewpoint on the Middle East and the Palestinian issue; however, interest groups always complain about different types of coverage. Some people in the Jewish community feel that the CBC has an anti-Israel slant. In my opinion, I think they are just reporting on the facts on the ground. That comes down to the perspectives of different communities on these issues.
The Deputy Chairman: Is it possible that they may think the same thing of the National Post that you think of the CBC?
Mr. Ahmed: That they think the National Post is?
The Deputy Chairman: Fair and unbiased.
Mr. Ahmed: I am not sure. You would have to ask them about the National Post. What I can tell you for certain is that the Muslim community does feel that the National Post and some key CanWest newspapers have over the years, especially after 9/11, perpetuated certain themes in their newspapers that often were not allowed to be countered with other narratives.
The Deputy Chairman: There was an interesting poll put out earlier this week by, I think, the Jewish community, which said that Canadians are evenly divided on Palestinian issues and Israeli issues and that there is no preponderance of anti-Israeli or anti-Muslim feeling. Would you agree that maybe the media in general, not necessarily specifically, are providing Canadian people with a fair and balanced view overall?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes. From a general point of view they are. Even locally here in Saskatchewan the media is generally very good. We are getting good, balanced coverage. However, in some instances with certain newspapers and radio stations there are persistent themes, as I mentioned in my statement.
Senator Munson: You mentioned a survey that you put together. Did the National Post or other newspapers print your survey?
Mr. Ahmed: No. The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations reports that they did not publish the survey.
Senator Munson: So you put out a press release.
Mr. Ahmed: I did not; this organization did.
Senator Munson: You put out the press release, you tried to get the information out, but the newspapers can choose not to print it.
Mr. Ahmed: Of course.
Senator Munson: It seems to be a legitimate public debate that perhaps newspapers should have paid attention to. Do you consider that a bias, in terms of just ignoring you?
Mr. Ahmed: To some degree, yes. When we do offer a competing narrative that presents a different perspective and opinion, it is often rejected outright. The Council on American-Islamic Relations reported that it approached the editor of the National Post with certain op-ed pieces that they simply flatly refused. The Globe and Mail had no problem publishing those.
The Canadian Islamic Congress attempted to meet with the editorial board of the National Post on several occasions and was denied a meeting. However, when the congress met with The Globe and Mail or a local paper like the Winnipeg Free Press there was no problem.
There is some concern regarding why certain newspapers, such as the National Post, are denying Muslims the opportunity to offer competing narratives when often those biases are steeped in factually inaccurate information that is based simply on innuendo or is just completely false information.
Senator Carney: Mr. Ahmed, for clarification, in your presentation, which we do not have copies of, you said that the first image of Muslims was very militant, and the second one was?
Mr. Ahmed: The second one I mentioned was about Muslims being characterized as being complicitly silent on terrorism.
Senator Carney: That is what I did not know, whether or not you were being accused of being terrorists.
Mr. Ahmed: That notion is very interesting. It boggles my mind because from my organization and national groups there have been endless press releases, and endless statements from mosques and from groups saying that this is not something that we condone, that we condemn it, that it is apart from our faith. Then we have the pundit on Global Television on Sunday Report saying Muslims are not condemning terrorism, et cetera. We are just flabbergasted. Are they just dismissing our statements?
For example, I wrote an article in the Leader-Post condemning what happened in Beslan, Russia with the Chechen terrorists. Someone wrote back saying that I was speaking out of both sides of my mouth on terrorism, even though I was quite clear and unequivocal in my statement. There are people who, I think, have a parochial agenda in portraying the Muslim community as something that is alien to Western society. That is something that we wish to counter and often those opportunities are not given to us.
Senator Carney: Can you tell us something about the size of the Muslim community here in Saskatchewan?
Mr. Ahmed: It numbers about 4,000.
Senator Carney: Is it urban?
Mr. Ahmed: It is mostly urban based, yes.
Senator Carney: I have two questions from that. Can you tell us about your group, Muslims for Peace and Justice? Is it local or national?
Mr. Ahmed: It is a provincial organization. We were formed after 9/11 in response to the urgent need for Muslims to respond to certain things in the media and essentially help our community out with that difficult process after 9/11.
Senator Carney: How are they served in terms of news? Obviously, if you can write for the Regina Leader-Post, you have access to mainstream journalism.
Mr. Ahmed: Yes.
Senator Carney: Does the Muslim community feel that it is represented in mainstream journalism or that it is well- served by the local television and radio?
Mr. Ahmed: From my perspective, in the local media we are served quite well. Our information, our events, our activities are well-covered. However, Muslims are not always being given the national opportunity, especially with large newspapers such as the National Post.
Senator Carney: Thank you for your excellent presentation.
Senator Fraser: This is partly a comment and partly a suggestion. A friend of mine was a senior member of another Muslim organization and I asked her to put together for me a dossier of all the public statements that her organization had made about terrorism. This was so that I could funnel it on to somebody else I knew who was saying that they never say anything. It was a very impressive file, at least an inch thick. I cannot say I agreed with absolutely everything they had said, but it was a very impressive, clear, indisputable file.
I am sure as a local group you have limited means, but I wonder if your group or other groups have ever considered putting it all together so that you have it on a shelf, and every time you see one of those comments saying you never say anything, send the documentary evidence. In fact, you could send it out anyway. You may not get a retraction on the specific comments that prompted you to do that, but you may have an influence on repetitions of similar things.
Mr. Ahmed: Yes. In fact, we have archived all our statements on our website.
Senator Fraser: Confront people with it. Slap it on their desk. I do not know if you have the resources to do it; that is why it is only a suggestion. When that was done for me I was very impressed with the results, and I think it would be useful.
Mr. Ahmed: It is a very good idea.
Senator Carney: Did you file your website with the clerk?
Mr. Ahmed: No, I did not.
Senator Carney: Could you do that, please?
Senator Merchant: Locally, you are quite satisfied. When you indicate the CanWest group are you talking about the television, too, as well as the print media?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes, I am.
Senator Merchant: You mentioned a radio station.
Mr. Ahmed: Yes, a local station.
Senator Merchant: They do not own any radio stations.
Mr. Ahmed: It was not CanWest.
Senator Merchant: Are you able to tell us who they are?
Mr. Ahmed: It was CJME, CKOM.
Senator Merchant: Are you talking about the open line?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes. It is an open-line, news/talk, radio station.
Senator Merchant: Is it a particular host or a particular segment of that? Is it a daily thing?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes. It is a daily thing. It was a particular segment.
Senator Merchant: Was it the same host?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes, it was certain hosts.
Senator Merchant: I would like to listen.
Mr. Ahmed: We did approach them. We did take some action with them.
Senator Merchant: They have stations all over the province so I imagine that this program is province-wide.
Mr. Ahmed: It is province-wide, yes. Even parts of Brandon and North Dakota heard it as well.
Senator Merchant: Thank you very much. If I knew what part of the day it was, it would be helpful. It is not a specific time of the day?
Mr. Ahmed: It runs in the morning from 8:30 to 12:30. There is a second segment from 1:30 to 4:30.
Senator Chaput: A very short question: If I understand correctly, your organization will respond to a public statement when you feel or you know that the statement is biased?
Mr. Ahmed: Yes.
Senator Chaput: You respond and they do not accept it. What are your alternatives? What else can you do in your present situation?
Mr. Ahmed: The other access is to approach other media outlets with whom we have a relationship, who often quote our statements; for example, the Leader-Post. When we condemned what happened in Russia, someone wrote back saying that law-abiding Muslims were not condemning this. We have a good working relationship with the Leader-Post and I sent a piece back to them, and they published it, saying that just last week we had made a statement condemning it.
So locally we have no problem. The concern comes at the national level with certain national newspapers and outlets that other groups have come across.
Senator Chaput: Does your organization get funding from somewhere? How do you fund your work?
Mr. Ahmed: Our funding is solely from the Muslim community in Saskatchewan.
The Deputy Chairman: Could you tell us the name of the national organization that was trying to meet with the National Post editorial board?
Mr. Ahmed: The Canadian Islamic Congress.
The Deputy Chairman: Were they meeting them about the Palestinian question?
Mr. Ahmed: No.
The Deputy Chairman: Were they meeting them about just general attitudes and editorial content about the Muslim community?
Mr. Ahmed: Just general attitudes. Exactly.
The Deputy Chairman: Our next speaker is Ms. Connie Deiter. Ms. Deiter is a graduate from York University's Osgoode Hall Law School. She has produced commentaries for the Alberta-based newspaper Windspeaker, CBC Radio and the Edmonton Journal.
I believe you have been a lecturer since 1994 with Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, developing and teaching programs in Aboriginal law, Indian studies, gender issues, indigenous political systems, Cree culture and Aboriginal women's issues. Obviously, you are a well-spoken and well-read witness.
Ms. Deiter, please proceed.
Ms. Connie Deiter, as an individual: First of all, I want to apologize. I do not have a formal, written response. I am not sure if you are aware of the reason, whether there are not enough resources or what the situation is, if there have not been very many other First Nations or Aboriginal people who have come and made a presentation at these particular hearings. If that is the case, it is really unfortunate, because we really do need some voice, some advocate. I have to say that the media has been, overall, quite responsive to that particular issue.
We do not have, for instance, a First Nations newspaper that is really accountable to the people here in Southern Saskatchewan. We do have a newspaper that comes out of Edmonton, I believe, but it is really limited in terms of how we get our message out. I have to say that probably all the media outlets here in Saskatchewan have been responsive to that.
My concerns are around the fact that I think some of the news reports are coloured by some of the attitudes that seem to be systemic in Saskatchewan.
We have, of course, two communities that I would argue are essentially living in solitude, with very little interaction happening between the two groups. That has been the case since the 1950s or 1960s since Indian people started moving off the reserves.
It has only been recently that non-First Nations people or non-Aboriginal people have really taken an interest in what is happening in our communities. As a result, some media editors and other people in media do not have a good understanding of the basic issues that face First Nations people, and that is translated in the way that they cover news reporting.
For instance, I think it was a month ago, the editor of the Leader-Post had written a column outlining his support for the blanket application of a provincial non-smoking law in First Nations casinos. Through the editorial you can tell that he hopes, as someone who has a social democratic background, that everyone is being treated equally. He argues that we should be all treated equally.
Quite frankly, First Nations and Aboriginal people are strongly influenced by what has happened to us through our history and some of the processes of colonization. I really do not think you can understand First Nations issues unless you have an understanding of things such as the legislation, which said, until 1951, for instance, that we could not leave the reserve. We could not sell products. We had the permit system until 1951.
I think the one recommendation that I would like to make is that people who are working in the media, for instance, or are in any sort of journalism program, take an Aboriginal studies class, because then they would have a much clearer understanding of the responsibility that the federal and provincial Crown have toward Aboriginal people.
As well, they should be hiring more Aboriginal people within these media outlets.
Later on I will recount for you some experiences that I have had with the local media, which I think I can ascribe to plain ignorance of some of the legislative jurisdictional issues that are facing us.
The other thing is to have more Aboriginal people work within these media outlets. I would venture to say that we have had a couple of strong media people — Nelson Bird and Mervin Brass from Saskatoon — but other than them I do not think we have any Aboriginal people working at CBC, and I am not sure about Global.
The fact that there are no Aboriginal people working at these agencies is a concern for me. We are supposed to be 14 per cent of the population. I believe your workforce should represent that, and that is not happening.
I also question some of the stories they carry. For instance, they have been really very kind to the police authorities; I would argue, too kind. I can say this because Calvin Johnson, who is the chief of police here, is my brother-in-law.
There are some real problems here in Saskatchewan regarding Aboriginal youth and incarceration rates. In Saskatchewan we lock up Aboriginal youth at a rate 22 times higher than any other province or territory in the country. I think there should be more media attention paid to this human rights issue. I am appalled.
I have not seen anything in newspaper editorials in the Leader-Post or from anybody else speaking about this atrocity. It is something that I have been working on personally to make sure it comes to the forefront.
The other thing is the city police received an 11 per cent wage increase. Who in this day and age gets an 11 per cent increase? Our city police do, without, again, any editorial comments made about it. Would you not make a comment if someone got an 11 per cent increase? These things are not getting out in our media.
I want to quickly bring to your attention some complaints that I have made that have not been resolved in a manner that I found satisfactory.
I think it was last summer or the summer before that there was a portrayal written and performed by the head of the Drama Department for the University of Saskatchewan. He portrayed Pauline Johnson as being a drunk and slurring her words and putting down her community. He posits this as art. I think it had been run two or three times before in the local media and nothing was said until I heard it.
I got my friends together and said, ``This is appalling. This is our literary icon.'' She might have been a little colourful, but what the heck. Nobody said anything about Ernest Hemingway walking around in high heels and dresses; nobody makes a big deal about that. However, they certainly could bring to our attention that Pauline Johnson had an alcohol problem. I think that victimizes her more so than it portrays her.
The Deputy Chairman: That is the reason Hemingway drank so much, and they did talk about his drinking problem.
Senator Carney: There are a lot of male Canadian authors who have drinking problems, but they are never portrayed that way.
Ms. Deiter: You should get a copy of this. She is slurring through it and it is just horrible.
I recently laid a complaint against the police department on a personal matter regarding my son. I have two sons, 14 and 17. The police had taken him to two jail cells in an afternoon for parking tickets. I thought it was a bit unusual.
They called out the media, and a lady who I believe is of East Indian descent — and I mention that only because I have taught at the University of Regina in the School of Journalism and I pretty well know which students have an understanding because I taught them, and when they left they knew about legal and jurisdictional issues, et cetera.
This lady seemed to be very aggressive. I do not think she is from Regina. She certainly has not been in any of my journalism classes.
She was trying to get information from me regarding one of my sons. She filmed him on camera and then asked me later what his charges were and who he was. I later wrote a letter to Global and to someone else. I got a call from the station manager who said that she acted in a way that was professional.
She came up to me and tried to snow me later. She was trying to get me to disclose personal information about my son, who is a minor. The way she did that was to put this on tape, threatening me, essentially — I felt threatened — that she was planning to show this tape on the air.
I did make a complaint. I will forward all these letters to you. I asked whether she had taken an Aboriginal awareness course, and he said no. He did not find her behaviour in any way threatening or intimidating.
I am mentioning this here because these people have a fair amount of influence, and if the press shuts us out, we are really shut out.
I am very fortunate that I did manage to teach some of the students who are now reporting. We are very much dependent on these people, and to have individuals such as her take this on — we have to get the message through.
Perhaps she thought this aggressive way was part of being in the media. I do not know. She later came up to me and said that this is the way they do things as journalists and that this is perfectly within how they are taught to ask questions.
I told her that I do not think so. I taught at university in the School of Journalism and that type of behaviour of trying to force me by threatening me, threatening my son, filming my son, is just totally inappropriate.
Another thing I want to make mention of is again about this editor, Bob Hughes. If I had the resources, if I had the time, I would take him to task on this. He wrote an editorial that again demonstrates that they cannot accept the fact that Saskatchewan may be racist. Their impression is that nobody here is racist.
He wrote in one of his articles that he saw a bumper sticker that said, ``Keep working, white man, I need a new truck.'' I have lived in Regina all my life; I have been in First Nations communities; I have been to powwows and celebrations; I have never, ever seen a bumper stick with that on it. That is just appalling and I would challenge him. I think it is libellous that he would write something like that.
With that I am open to any questions you may have.
Senator Fraser: That is all fascinating and I was having so many thoughts. I am a former journalist myself so, as you can imagine, I was having layers and layers of thoughts listening to you. I am from the East.
One of the thoughts that occurred to me was that it is an unfortunate truth that once journalists actually start to pay close attention to a community — and I am not talking now about racist journalists — this is what reporters do. They are naturally drawn to the bad news. It is not just with First Nations; it is with everybody.
Years ago I can remember assigning a reporter, who was one of the very best reporters I have known, to cover minorities in a city full of a very diverse immigrant population. He spoke several languages; he was already familiar with several of the communities, and I thought he was an ideal candidate to go out to tell the majority of the community about the fabric of the lives of the minority.
What I had forgotten was that he was a superb investigative reporter and whatever you assigned him to do, he would dig up scandal. If you assigned him to cover politics, he would dig up scandal. If you assigned him to cover fashion, he would dig up scandal in the fashion industry. I pointed him at minorities and he found scandal there. Since it was our first attempt to cover them in any other way than the folkloric way, you can understand that the minorities were upset.
You have to push back, but this is just a constant that you have to worry about. This is what reporters do: They look for the man-bites-dog stories. It is not necessarily individually ill-intentioned.
That is my preaching; now my question. We heard this morning from the Director of the School of Journalism here that there have been very few Aboriginal applicants. She was obviously very pleased that there were three or four for next year. She was really pleased about this. If my memory serves, we also heard at the University of British Columbia that they have not had very many Aboriginal/First Nations applicants to become journalists, to study journalism.
I wonder if you have any notion why this might be. Is it an absence of outreach? Is it a sense in the community that the doors will be closed to us even if we get the degree? Is it just not part of the tradition, or why would this be?
Ms. Deiter: Here in Saskatchewan, and it may be true in New Brunswick, too, we have a First Nations journalism program at the University of Regina. It is called INCA, Indian Communications Arts, and it is unfortunate they did not make a presentation.
Senator Fraser: I will say that the Director of the School of Journalism did mention that program. We were made aware of it.
Ms. Deiter: I think, from my own experience as a student, that once you have done three years, you do not want to return to do some more time. Some students are getting hired from that program. It is almost an entry-level type of program. Of course, a university degree would be better. I do not know how many students have graduated from INCA thinking that they have a valid degree that will get them a job within mainstream media. I believe if we could somehow meld the programs, the interest is there.
Unfortunately, I think that is the situation, here in Saskatchewan anyway. I can say that those who have gone through it have done extremely well, such as Nelson Bird and Mervin Brass.
Senator Fraser: Those are doors that are opening and role models that are being set up. What difference has the creation of the APTN, Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, made?
Ms. Deiter: I can still see that it has a long way to go. However, it is already giving us another voice that, for instance, First Nations women who live in Regina may not have, because we are not connected to our traditional communities. We do not have access to our chief right away. With APTN you can go on-line and make a comment.
As a matter of fact, I should probably say that I am this month's national panellist. Today at 6:30 you can hear me mumble through. The fact that they have travelling panellists, who talk about what is happening from their perspective in their own community, I think has a very positive impact, certainly for people who have not had a voice in the past.
Senator Merchant: Do you think that the local media have a responsibility to go to some of the inner-city schools, where there is a very high percentage of First Nations students, and attempt to involve them in projects that would make it easier for them to become more at ease and to get to know some media people even though they are not from a First Nations background?
Because we have such a high First Nations population, and a young population, maybe it is their responsibility to go out and try to bridge that gap and have some programs. Could they perhaps broadcast a program sometime from Albert School or the high school? Are you aware of anything that they could be doing?
I asked the question this morning of whether or not there are First Nations students in the program, and there are not very many. Perhaps it is because they are not making any special attempts to attract students, and they judge everybody equally when they apply. Sometimes you need to get people in the door, because different people's backgrounds sometimes make it more difficult for them to get their foot in the door. Once they get their foot in the door they do quite well, they blossom.
Ms. Deiter: I think that is a wonderful idea, actually. My thoughts now are that we are in a state of crisis here in Saskatchewan, unless we do something about the future for the upcoming young people. Over 40 per cent of our population is 15 years and under, so we really need to make those connections.
For instance, we really need to create a dialogue between what is happening in mainstream and what is happening in Indian country. There is little to no interaction happening between these two groups. I am sure that is true. You live in Regina and you know that is true, and it is really unfortunate.
Having people coming out from the media — for instance, my son was talking about doing a community radio program for Aboriginal youth and just having his music, but he has no concept of how to do that. He does not know where to get training. It would be wonderful if they could do something like that.
Senator Merchant: When I was teaching I found that First Nations children are very creative. They love to draw and dance. I am sure that they could give a different perspective that would attract an audience of other First Nations children who would listen to that kind of programming.
Ms. Deiter: I think that a radio program or a radio station is something that is really missing, too, here in Saskatchewan. We really do need to have some kind of full-time media presence that is speaking with a First Nations or a Métis or Inuit voice.
Senator Fraser: Has anyone ever applied for Aboriginal radio licences?
Ms. Deiter: I think there is one in Okanese First Nation, which is an Indian reserve not far from here. I know there is some talk about a national Aboriginal radio station. There is something in the North, but I do not think there is anything in the South, at least I have not been able to find any. We are in dire need of good radio stations.
Senator Merchant: I have seen First Nations programming on television. Is it with CKCK Television?
Ms. Deiter: Yes. We have the Indigenous Circle, which is a half-hour program once a week.
Senator Merchant: That deals strictly with Aboriginal issues, does it?
Ms. Deiter: Yes. However, considering we will soon be 20 per cent of the population, I think we warrant something a little bit broader than that. I would like to see coverage of Aboriginal sports, for instance. We have some wonderful hockey games and athletes. I would also like to see coverage of conferences, which are pretty exciting, actually.
Senator Merchant: Maybe the Leader-Post could set aside space.
Ms. Deiter: I was a columnist for the Leader-Post for a short time, and I would love to do it again, but they have not offered.
Senator Merchant: I was thinking of space for young people, under 20 years, to write about First Nations people.
Ms. Deiter: That is a wonderful idea but I am not sure whether or not there are enough young people in that age group who have a wide enough view. If they will give space, let it be given to someone who is able to really articulate what the issues are.
Senator Merchant: I am sure you could put something together with their teachers. Over at Scott Collegiate they have some very good teachers.
Ms. Deiter: Yes. I know they have some great teachers.
Senator Munson: Good afternoon. I am curious: Do you have any idea what the state of community radio is in First Nations communities, and how many stations there are across the country?
Ms. Deiter: I do not know the situation across the country. I have heard that Gary Farmer is trying to set up a national radio program, which I think is a good idea. I know there is a radio program in Hobbema, the Samson First Nation, around Wetaskiwin, just outside of Edmonton. I know that when there is a radio program in their area Indian people listen.
Another thing is APTN news. I was surprised to find out that so many Aboriginal people in the City of Regina watch APTN as their news source. That is really surprising to me.
Senator Munson: I should know this. Do you have to apply to the CRTC for a community radio?
The Deputy Chairman: Yes.
Senator Munson: I think First Nations connecting with national community radio would be a very positive thing that perhaps we should push hard for as a committee — a voice from sea to sea to sea.
Ms. Deiter: Especially for areas like Saskatchewan.
Senator Munson: You cannot even get The Globe and Mail in Southern Saskatchewan.
The committee adjourned.