Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 12 - Evidence for March 8, 2005
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 8, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 9:37 a.m. to examine the current state of Canadian media industries; emerging trends and developments in these industries; the media's role, rights and responsibilities in Canadian society; and current and appropriate future policies relating thereto.
Senator Joan Fraser (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, members of the public, welcome to this session of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications, which is continuing its examination of the appropriate role of public policy in helping to ensure that the Canadian news media remain healthy, independent and diverse in light of the tremendous changes that have occurred in recent years. Those include, notably, globalization, technological change, convergence and increased concentration of ownership.
[Translation]
Today our witness is Mr. Guy Crevier, President of Gesca, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Power Corporation. Gesca is the largest French-language media group in Canada and is the owner of a number of important newspapers, including La Presse and Le Soleil.
Thank you for coming here. You sent us your brief, I am sure that all senators have already read it, but we would like to give you ten minutes to make a presentation. We will then begin our questioning.
Mr. Guy Crevier, President, Gesca Ltée.: Madam Chair, I would like to thank you for inviting us to testify before your Senate committee. Today it is our pleasure to present to you our vision and to suggest a number of revenues of reflection relating to the written press, our main area of activity. In the coming minutes, I will be talking to you about the unique contribution made by our daily newspapers and I will be giving you some idea of the fragile situation of our industry.
First of all, a short introduction to Gesca and its activities. As the first real press group established in Quebec, Gesca owns seven French-language dailies serving the main regions of Quebec and southern Ontario. La Presse in Montreal, Le Soleil in Quebec City, Le Nouvelliste in Trois-Rivières, Le Droit in Ottawa, La Tribune in Sherbrooke, Le Quotidien in the Saguenay area and La Voix de l'Est in Granby.
The company recently began operating in the fields of the Internet, publishing and television production. Gesca's approach is routed in a strong tradition. In pursuing our information mandate, our approach is based on more than 35 years of experience in publishing dailies. Certain core values have guided our development and are essential to our group as a whole. The quality of information, respect for the unique character of each of the dailies, recognition of the independence of the editorial newsrooms, the assignment of sufficient resources to the dailies for them to be able to discharge their mandate effectively and the promotion of diversity of opinion are all elements that our group is very much attached to.
For its entire network, Gesca devotes over $57 million annually to maintaining the vitality of its news gathering capability. Notwithstanding the difficult circumstances of recent years, no layoffs have affected the operation of the editorial rooms of our regional dailies. La Presse and Le Soleil have even been the beneficiaries of a major program of workforce renewal and expansion.
The editorial rooms of Gesca have the largest journalistic staff of all the communications companies in the markets we serve. By way of example, in the category of dailies with a print run of between 600,000 and 800,000 copies a week, the Quebec City newspaper Le Soleil ranks second in Canada for the size of its newsroom editorial staff and first on the basis of the number of editorial pages printed. This, despite the fact that Le Soleil must rely on the smallest revenues from printing and advertising lineage in its category. Our resources are allocated in accordance with the mandate of each daily.
Within Gesca, the mandate for covering international events rests essentially with La Presse. La Presse is the only daily which serves a market capable of supporting this orientation. La Presse has its own network of foreign correspondents and the Gesca dailies can thus benefit from international coverage produced by Quebeckers for Quebeckers, rather than relying exclusively on the relatively anonymous coverage provided by the major foreign press agencies. For example, when a journalist like Isabelle Hachey, who comes from the Saguenay, covers international current events, she does so with a sensitivity and a cultural background that is well suited to francophone readers in Canada.
The recognition of editorial independence is an essential aspect of the way in which Gesca operates. We pay particular attention to the quality of information and the exercise of the right to inform in full freedom and independence.
Respect for professional standards is guaranteed by a long tradition of professionalism on the part of both management and unionized journalists. Gesca also has well-established internal rules regarding the circulation of information between the various dailies. Each of them may publish, on an entirely voluntary basis, articles made available throughout the network. In this way, each daily is able to project outside its own region and contribute to enriching the group through the quality of its content.
In 2004, more than 8,700 texts circulated around our network. The news management of each daily has absolute control of its content and decides independently whether or not to publish an article, a series or a survey. Similarly, it is free, as it decides, to reprint Canadian Press Wire articles. Each newsroom has its own hierarchy and reports to the management of each individual newspaper.
Gesca dailies promote debate and diversity of opinion. The Gesca dailies are firmly rooted in the respective communities and contribute to moving forward the debates within society by encouraging readers and experts to express their points of view on the opinion pages. By way of example, La Presse in 2004 received almost 30,000 readers' letters, a figure which reflects the desire of Quebeckers to express themselves on a wide range of subjects of concern to them.
Gesca dailies are solid partners of the Canadian Press. We have always supported this organization and firmly intend to maintain our collaboration, both in financial terms and in terms of information exchange. In 2004, for example, Gesca dailies provided almost 60 per cent of all the texts sent to the French service of the Canadian Press. That is an exceptional contribution. Such texts may be subsequently reprinted in other French-language dailies such as Le Devoir, le Journal de Montréal, le Journal de Québec, L'Acadie Nouvelle.
Another point I would like to emphasize is the unique contribution made by Gesca dailies to their community and the culture of our country. Today, our daily newspapers play the role of genuine agents of social and economic development within their communities. They play a paramount role in disseminating quality information but also in maintaining their position as the quintessential forum for debate. They constitute, so to speak, the new`` town square`` where diversity of opinions and ideas can be found. The participation of our dailies in the life of a community is also reflected in investigations into issues of public interest or by direct support for important causes. For example, in Ottawa Le Droit contributed to the preservation of a public service for francophones by becoming involved in the issue surrounding the Montfort Hospital.
Within the Gesca group, each daily is also strongly identified with its own region, where it maintains an active presence. Our dailies also make a significant contribution to the preservation and the development of our culture. More generally speaking, our dailies have a triple impact on Canadian culture.
First of all, they are cultural institutions in themselves. Because of the importance of our archives and our ability to enrich them every day, our dailies are in a way the faithful guardians of our collective memory. They are among our oldest institutions and have played and are still playing an important role in defining our identity.
Second, our dailies play a direct role in promoting our cultural productions and events. In comparison with what one finds in the private electronic media, cultural coverage in our dailies is also significantly less oriented towards American commercial productions and the world of entertainment. It is closer to its own community and focuses more on building the reputations of the artists that have emerged from within it.
Third, our dailies contribute to the promotion and progress of the written language. This role is particularly important in French-speaking Canada where, for over a century, French-language newspapers have provided the most accessible channel to quality editorial content.
Firmly rooted in their home environment, they have advanced the practice and the development of reading habits among our people. In this regard, our Cyberpresse-écoles program continues to work toward this objective by giving primary and secondary schools in Quebec and southern Ontario free access to the entire archives of Gesca dailies.
I would now like to turn to the question of our industry. Over the past 15 years, daily newspapers have worked in a highly competitive environment. The industry's main performance indicators have deteriorated. There are a number of factors that contribute to this fragility: the drop in lineage and circulation, the low readership rate in Canada, the impact of Canada's geography on distribution, the specific nature of our advertising markets, the proliferation of media and the influence of new technologies.
The lineage and circulation of dailies is dropping sharply throughout domestic markets. According to the Canadian Newspaper Association, the major Canadian dailies have experienced an average drop in lineage on the order of 17 per cent and a 14 per cent drop in circulation since 1990. This phenomenon is mainly attributable to the great diversification of media sources brought about by the explosion of new technologies.
The imposition of federal and provincial taxes on dailies has done nothing to improve the situation. There was a significant decline in the circulation of our dailies following the introduction of these new taxes. According to ABC figures, the introduction of these new taxes resulted in a 7.5 per cent drop in the average weekly circulation of dailies. This decrease is the direct and main result of the increased consumer price for each copy sold. This trend was confirmed by a recent study of the Newspaper Association of America to the effect that 26 per cent of readers who cancel their subscription to a daily do so for price reasons. In light of what has been done for the book publishing industry, it is our view that the discussion on eliminating consumption taxes on dailies should be re-opened.
The precarious state of our industry can also be attributed to a low readership rate for dailies. A recent study of the World Association of Newspapers confirms this reality by quoting that a total of 337 copies are sold for each 1,000 adult Canadians. Although Canada thus ranks 16th out of the 31 countries surveyed, this performance is nevertheless below that of such countries as the Republic of Singapore, Switzerland, Sweden and Japan. It is desirable that consideration be given to ways of encouraging our population, especially our young people, to read daily newspapers.
There are numerous European initiatives that can provide a basis for work to identify concrete means of action. The eight proposals contained in the SPITZ report, a report commissioned by the Government of France, are interesting in this respect. One of the suggestions of the report is to introduce a measure to allow every citizen on attaining the age of 18 to receive a free two-month subscription to a daily of their choice.
I would also like to discuss Canada's geography as a factor affecting the distribution of dailies. Canada is a unique country in terms of its immense land area and its low population density. These attributes represent a considerable challenge for anyone who runs a press group.
The distribution costs for a major national daily like La Presse in regions remote from major centres are sometimes excessive. As a private company, it is difficult for us to assume the expenses required to ensure coverage of all of Quebec. For example, it costs La Presse approximately $700 a day, totalling $250,000 a year, to ship the 500 copies of the paper to the North Shore and the Gaspé, that is well in excess of the newspaper's sale price. The constantly increasing costs of distribution have forced us in recent years to reduce our reach in certain regions. In order to curb this trend, it would be advisable to give some thought to incentives designed to promote the distribution of dailies outside the major urban centres.
The Canadian market is also particular when it comes to advertising revenues since it is limited by the number and the size of its advertisers. According to figures provided by the CNA, the per capita revenue potential of dailies is 2.6 times less in Canada than in the United States. This figure is as high as 6.8 per cent in the case of the Internet. In view of the presence of four major dailies, not counting the free dailies in a market as small as that as Montreal, it constitutes a unique competitive environment in North America.
In recent years, there has been a decline in interest in dailies on the part of the public compared to the growing popularity of the electronic media. According to a survey of the U.S. market conducted in July 2004 and disseminated by the World Association of Newspapers, the Internet today enjoys a substantial lead as the people's preferred medium, followed by television, books, radio and, lastly, newspapers. In order to regain ground in such an environment, we believe that the written press must identify its uniqueness through its ability to offer in-depth and full information focussing on analysis and, at the same time, accessible in a modern, user-friendly format.
The increase in the number and the proliferation of types of media today guarantee access to a diversified offering of information for the entire population. In such a context, the birth of large press groupings is a phenomenon to be encouraged, as such entities have the financial resources to sustain the dissemination of quality information. However, a problem arises with concentration when a single player owns several types of first-rank media within the same market. On this point, we believe that the supervisory and regulatory agencies have not displayed due diligence with respect to the Canadian market.
As well as bringing about the proliferation of media, the rapid evolution of technology has created new modes of dissemination that, for the most part, are not subject to regulation in Canada. The development of broadband Internet, wireless or satellite broadcasting generates a growing pressure on the Canadian media industry. Faced with greater penetration of foreign content via these channels, consumers are likely to turn away still more from production with Canadian content.
Already, English Canada is showing a decided preference for American content on television and radio. This predominance can only increase with the crumbling of borders as a result of technological advances. In an age of globalization, surveys show that Canadians are increasingly open. Access to international coverage that is clearly identified in relation to our own specific reality constitutes an undeniable richness and benefit for our readers. In view of the increasing fragility of the newspaper industry, offering this type of coverage represents an increasingly demanding challenge, but one that is nonetheless important for dailies. In this perspective, a process of reflection is called for regarding the introduction of incentives for sending journalists abroad. This would represent a considerable asset for Canadian dailies. The means for implementing such measures should guarantee the independence of editorial decisions.
In conclusion, we wish to stress that in an open economy where the sources of information are proliferating, the demands of the public are increasingly high with respect to the excellence and rigour expected of daily newspapers. To meet such expectations, newspapers must evolve in a context conducive to achieving one of their primary objectives, namely providing top quality information to Canadian readers.
Another major challenge lies in the ability to open up to change. As institutions with their roots going back many decades, press corporations are often reluctant to do so. This is a crucial question. In order to remain relevant, these institutions must today embrace other ways of doing things and not hesitate to embark on new initiatives. The future of our industry lies in its ability to innovate in order to adapt to the new reality of readers and advertisers.
At a time when the daily newspaper industry is growing more fragile, a process of reflection is desirable in order to generate new ideas likely to encourage its development. In view of the unique, essential contribution of dailies, this question is of primordial interest for Canadian society.
First and foremost, we wish to emphasize that no legislation, no regulations and no policies can be more conducive to the quality of information than the desire and the financial capacity of a press group to promote a strategy focusing on quality. This is the best guarantee of a free, diversified press.
Nonetheless, we view as desirable the introduction of certain incentives in order to improve some of the structural aspects of our industry. The development of measures to facilitate distribution, based on objective standards for the entire corporate sector, should receive preferential consideration in order to better serve remote areas and breakdown their isolation. The abolition of taxes on copies of dailies and the institution of programs to encourage reading constitute other initiatives with the potential to generate positive impacts. Lastly, the institution of incentive measures for sending correspondents abroad is an approach that deserves consideration in order to give new dynamism to Canadian dailies as a group and to offer our society a range of perspectives.
Canada can take pride in its press institutions, which are among the world's credible and the most successful. The successes of our system and its attendant values constitute an inestimable resource for our country. We must work to preserve them in the spirit of rigour and continuity.
We hope that the avenues of reflection set out in this brief will be useful to you in acquiring an understanding of the Canadian news media industry and a better comprehension of the challenges faced by dailies in this rapidly evolving market. Thank you.
The Chairman: Thank you. You have given us a great deal of material and we have very little time. So we shall immediately begin our questions.
[English]
Senator Johnson: Good morning. Power Corporation of Canada, of course, is your parent company. What is your relationship with respect to the operation of your paper, and how do you ensure editorial independence with items with regard to Power Corporation, which has so much power in Quebec in every level of management, international affairs and companies. I notice you have an extensive background, including in the film business, and I must commend Quebec for being involved in the film world. Back to my original question with regard to Power Corporation, and then I have another question with regard to La Presse itself.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: You are right when you describe Power Corporation as an excessively important company in Quebec and in Canada with several ramifications in Europe, including in the area of communications.
Gesca is a company with its own board of directors where Power Corporation is represented. I think it is our good fortune to evolve in an environment where the owners have a great deal of respect for the independence of the newspapers. These people play a role on the board of directors but they never meddle with the content or the daily operations of the newspapers. They have a great deal of respect for the news media and they and understand how they operate. As a matter of fact, for more than 35 years now Power Corporation has owned daily newspapers.
[English]
Senator Johnson: You have put a lot of money into La Presse, in terms of foreign coverage particularly, and investigative journalism and reporting. You have done quite a bit of hiring lately, which has revitalized your newspaper and, we are told, made it more dynamic and enthusiastic. What about your other newspapers, the ones at the local level? Has this hurt them in terms of the news, or does a lot of it get filtered down from La Presse to them and affect the local news and local colour of the dailies?
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: I can explain to you how our press group operates. All the articles published by our newspapers are made available to the different member newspapers. It is not a network that operates only in one direction. It is not only the articles from La Presse that are sent to our daily newspapers. Every day La Presse must publish a minimum of 10 to 15 articles from the regions. I think that this contributes to breaking up the isolation of the regions.
I would also like to make a correction. It is true that there have been many changes in La Presse for all sorts of reasons. First of all, we have invested in international coverage. We also invest in better content for each of our sections. In addition, we undertook a very expensive reform related to the fact that La Presse was one of the last newspapers in North America to get rid of its typography processes. Let me mention that since the 1960s, newspaper printing technologies are offset technologies. In the year 2000, La Presse still had a typography technology. Our decision to undertake this change was a big decision, particularly since we decided to contract this service out and to no longer do the job of printing. Just to give you an idea of how obsolete our equipment was, we offered our lithography presses to developing countries and they refused. They were so old that the countries were not interested. That shows you how outdated our equipment was.
So the total investments in La Presse do appear to be very significant but were part of a necessary process of renewal of such technologies.
As for our regional dailies, I can tell you that we do promote quality information in all our newspapers. In my brief, I gave the example of Le Soleil in Quebec city which has the second largest newsroom in Canada in its particular category of newspapers of a comparable size. It is the Canadian newspaper that devotes the largest number of pages to editorial content. So Le Soleil does seek to achieve an environment of quality. In the case of Le Soleil, in recent years — we have owned this paper for about three and a half years — there has been a very significant program of renewal and hiring of personnel. We have five or six new journalists with Le Soleil.
In Trois-Rivières, there are more journalists working forLe Nouvelliste than in all the newsrooms of our competitors in the television and radio sector. Their combined figure is lower than the total number of journalists. We are a press group that focuses on quality, not only for La Presse but for all of our daily newspapers.
The most serious study comparing the performance of daily newspapers in their market, in terms of editorial investment is undertaken by Inland, it is a very extensive and independent study based on specific criteria under which Canadian and American newspapers agree to provide all figures, results, revenue and expenses in various sectors. Based on such data, Inland prepares a report that is sent to all newspapers and allows us to make a comparison with what others are doing.
When it comes to editorial expenses, the system of measurement used by Inland is simple and very objective. Inland states how much a daily newspaper spends relative to its total revenue. Basically, this total revenue would normally determine the ability of a newspaper to invest in its editorial content, to develop and to undertake new initiatives.
La Presse is part of the category of 100,000 copies and plus.
The Chair: Is that daily circulation?
Mr. Crevier: It is the over 100,000 category in daily circulation but this average does take into account Saturdays and Sundays. It is an average expressed in terms of a daily basis.
Inland shows that newspapers in this category in Canada spent 11.9 per cent of their revenue in editorial expenses. And when we talk about editorial expenses, all the participants undertake to send the same expenses to Inland. Wages and salaries, photographers, information pools, press wires and so forth. According to Inland, the average expense of North American newspapers amounts to 11.9 per cent. At La Presse, because of their efforts to promote quality journalism, we spent 14.7 per cent, in other words 2.8 per cent more than the North American average.
I will now give you the figures for the other dailies. Le Soleil is also in the category where North American editorial expenditures amount to 11.9 per cent. That means in North America Le Soleil is probably the newspaper that spends the most on editorial expenses. In other words, it is not only La Presse that is focusing on a strategy of quality.
As for Le Nouvelliste, it is in a group where the average figure is 12.6 per cent. Le Nouvelliste spent 16,4 per cent, in other words 3.8 per cent more. It is even a higher percentage than the figure for La Presse.
Le Droit, La Tribune and Le Quotidien are in a category where the average North American expenses for editorial content is 13.3 per cent. The actual expenses for Le Droit are 16 per cent, for La Tribune 15.6 per cent and Le Quotidien 16.8 per cent.
La Voix de l'Est, which is our smallest daily, is in a category that spends 14.3 per cent, compared to us; we spend 15 per cent. In all of our markets, we exceed, in terms of editorial expenses, the North American average for a very simple reason, and that is that our group — this is our own statement — promotes a quality newspaper. We insist on having our newspapers very well rooted in their community and we give them sufficient resources to properly carry out their mandate.
The Chair: Could we have a copy of that study?
Mr. Crevier: I would be pleased to send you one.
[English]
Senator Phalen: Just a couple of questions in respect of your brief. The National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada brought to this committee's attention their dissatisfaction with the rules governing the editorial assistance program of Heritage Canada as well as the Publications Assistance Program. I note in the section on the impact of Canada's geography on distribution in your brief you stated, and I quote, ``The constantly increasing costs of distribution have forced us in recent years to reduce our reach in certain regions.'' Could you give us your opinion on the federal government media assistance programs? Are they adequate, and what changes are necessary, if any?
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: I have a very broad answer to your question. My experience has led me to work in a number of sectors of the communications industry: I headed the TVA network for a number of years, I was president of Videotron, I have sat on wireless television boards of directors, I have invested in television and film production companies. I have worked for businesses that provide Internet services. I consider myself a communications generalist.
The reason I say that is quite simple: I am a huge fan of the Canadian system. I find it extraordinary what we have managed to do in Canada. We have succeeded in building a general system in the communications industry, and a very strong cultural system, next door to an American giant, known as a bulldozer in this system. At the time, there were people with a lot of vision, who succeeded in establishing extraordinary programs, and who ensured a form of quality development and survival for our systems. Today, we are entering a unique environment. And this unique environment, in my opinion, is fragmentation, Internet, the development of bandwidth, the whole development of satellites, which profoundly challenge our system. At the same time, there is the whole issue of international developments, globalization, crumbling trade barriers. At the end of the day, what will Canada have left? I think that two goals will basically remain: maintaining our services — which distinguish us, our health care and education system, from the Americans — and protecting our culture.
If I were a politician today, or someone who took an interest in these matters, I would actively develop this. Ultimately, what is going to make the difference in Canada is our ability to maintain our difference in our services as compared to the Americans and to value our health care system and our culture.
A lot of thinking has to go into our system. In the past, people did some thinking and founded Radio-Canada, and a bit later they founded Telefilm Canada and the NFB. All of that made a huge contribution to our system. A lot of things were done. However, what worked very well for the past 40 years, clearly, is running out of steam and is no longer working so well. We have new challenges and it is time someone put on the brakes. It is not just about trying to fix the minor problems of the past, it is about having a vision for the next 20 years and asking what can be done to maintain a cultural system and strong communities in Canada, closely identified with Canadian culture. The only thinking I can share with you on that is that newspapers play an extraordinary role. There is nothing other than a daily, in a community, to value what is happening on the regional scene and to spark debate. Take La Tribune, for example. There are fantastic debates in the Sherbrooke area; the pages are open, the people are interactive. When you watch television today, you cannot help noticing that it is mostly American shows. Our culture is withering greatly.
All communications sectors receive assistance from governments through specific programs for their development except dailies. There are programs for books, magazines, television — the spoiled baby of our system — radio and music. The only sector that gets no assistance is newspapers. In my opinion, it is newspapers that make the largest contribution and are the essential tool for the preservation of Canadian culture.
If I were in your shoes today, if I had to think about what is going to happen in the years to come and about what should be done, I would make sure steps were taken to maintain strong regional and national press in Canada. Those are the only tools that will preserve Canadian culture.
[English]
Senator Phalen: In your brief you stated that, and I quote, ``In light of what has been done for the book publishing industry, the discussion needs to be reopened on eliminating consumption taxes on dailies.'' There are many other industries in Canada which believe, as I am sure you do, that they provide an essential informational, educational or cultural service to Canadians. Internet service providers come quickly to mind. If we reopen the discussion on removal of the GST, where would you suggest we draw the line?
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: Canada did that for books, and we have seen the impact. The introduction of the GST led to a 7.5 per cent drop in newspaper sales. In Canada, there have never been any Canadian programs, in any form, that have supported reading, although they exist in many countries. We have 330 readers per 1,000 people. That figure goes up to 580 in Japan, and 500 in most of the Scandinavian countries, because of government intervention.
What does it mean for a government to have a population that reads? Dailies help people tremendously — with articles in their specialized sections — to improve their health, to get educational tips, to get investment advice, to improve their life. In a newspaper, the current events information is important, but a newspaper is also made up of what I call a navigation aid for society.
Take the profile of readers of La Presse. Despite all of the changes that have taken place in society in recent years, these people do not feel overwhelmed at all. The chief value of these people — and that is measured with very complex polls — is the desire to participate in society. They want to discover new opportunities, whereas in many cases, people feel overwhelmed with everything that is happening. We speak to dynamic people who want to come up with new ideas and make changes in our society.
In our ``forum'' pages, there are ongoing debates on what people are going through, how they are going through it, what people are doing, how they should be doing it, the gay marriage issue, et cetera. Can you name any other media that are that interactive? Have there been any round-tables on gay marriage on television? Not very many. On radio? Some. It is mostly happening in the newspapers.
I think it is in our interest to do so, because we will have a much better society with better educated, better informed people, who will make better decisions in all fields. The benefits will be far greater than what might be collected today through the GST on newspaper sales, I am sure of it. Informed people are people who, in terms of participation in society and in a country, have a lot of value to contribute.
Now, who is going to play that role? In an environment where newspapers continue to decline in terms of lineage and circulation, to lose momentum in the newsrooms, to reduce the number of editorial pages, to rely more heavily on American news agencies for their content, what will become of our systems?
The Canadian market is made up of many smaller markets. In my opinion, introducing a tax on dailies that play a fundamental role in the development of a country as vast and complex as ours was a fundamental mistake.
Senator Chaput: I would like to come back to Gesca's approach to the fundamental values that guide the development of the expertise of the seven newspapers you own. You referred to respect for the originality, the independence of newsrooms and the promotion of a diversity of opinions. I read in your document that there are internal rules. I would like you to tell us a bit about how that works. How do you ensure that the newspapers remain independent? Are there measurement standards?
Mr. Crevier: There are many measurement standards. We are threatened with lawsuits about 60 times a year, or roughly once a week. Half the time, we publish a retractation because there was a mistake in our newspapers. I would say that is perhaps the distinguishing feature of our press group. When you watch the major television news shows on our major networks, you rarely hear a retractation. It is not because those people do not make mistakes, it is because they do not issue a retractation. As soon as someone reports to us that there was a mistake in one of our dailies, we check it out and if we are mistaken, we are happy to make a correction. When I see a correction in my newspaper, it does not upset me as a publisher, quite the contrary. What is important is journalistic discipline and the defence of the fundamental right of individuals to respect for their rights.
In the past 10 years, we at La Presse have not lost a single lawsuit.
Mr. Crevier: We faced some very serious lawsuits from people who had hired the best lawyers in Canada, including one individual who was suing us for $30 million. The case went all the way to an appeal and we won. That shows that if we win all of our lawsuits, we can establish that the work is done professionally. Since the year 2000, 18 complaints about us have been made to the Press Council, and all were dismissed. We have no written news policy for one very simple reason; we work in an evolving system. We place value on our teams' weekly discussions about our work as journalists. In my view, a news policy is something fluid, that has to be adapted every day in response to current events. I cannot think of a single month without our management team having a fundamental discussion about a specific topic being covered and asking whether we had gone too far, or whether we should change something. I detect a growing tendency in Canadian society, both on television and radio, to blur the lines. If you listen to a newscast today, you do not know whether it is a journalist or an editorialist talking to you. There is an incredible blurring of the lines. We are concerned about that and are following it closely. Canadian media are also increasingly developing disrespectful news. That is something that affects us and that we discuss at length in our media.
We have qualified full-time staff to answer everyone who writes to us. I answer a lot of letters from readers about our journalistic practices. Why did we do this or that, et cetera? We systematically answer everyone. I occasionally write a piece when I see that some of our practices are being questioned or are of particular interest to a certain number of readers. Every year at La Presse, a document signed by me, the assistant publisher and the editor-in-chief reports all of our major accomplishments, our approach, some of our policies. Our collective agreement includes a number of professional clauses, including one that specifically indicates that every year, the assistant publisher has to meet with all of the journalists to discuss our editorial policy. This whole area — which I call the professionalism area — is very clearly marked out in our pages. I told you that we get 30,000 letters per year. La Presse is one of the newspapers in Canada that gives the most space to opinion pages and we value the diversity of opinions and conflicting opinions.
The Chairman: Would you be so kind as to send us copies of what you have written and the annual joint document?
Mr. Crevier: Yes.
[English]
Senator Merchant: Mr. Crevier, you spoke about the importance of producing good quality news and about the passion of preserving Canadian culture, and that you produce newspapers that encourage readership. You spoke about your concerns about engaging young people because, after all, they are the people that you must be targeting for the future of your newspapers. You also spoke about other countries in the world that have certain incentives or programs to encourage young people. Are you able to elaborate a bit on that? What are you thinking we could do to get young people to become interested in the news? You said that, in English Canada particularly, people are now, more and more, looking for their information south of the border, to our neighbour. Can you elaborate a little bit. What would you like to see done to engage readers, to maintain your readers, and also to get young people to read newspapers?
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: To begin with, there is something that I would like to clarify. Reading assistance programs have to take into account not only daily newspapers but all types of reading materials, books, magazines, et cetera. There is a lot to be done. Canada has had quite expensive programs called Newspapers in Education Programs. Newspapers are extraordinary educational tools for teachers who want to use the content of our newspapers to create interesting classroom material. This approach was expensive for newspapers to support. It is a specific example of support that the government could provide by assisting with and funding school activities involving the use of daily newspapers and reading. There is the Spitz report. Two years ago, the French government stated that newspaper reading would have to be promoted in order to protect the culture. At the end of the brief is a series of recommendations from the Spitz report for your information. I do not believe that they necessarily apply to the Canadian market. I mainly wanted to show that if there was a real will to do something, it would be very easy to create a small working group with people representing education, the government and newspapers who could create well-adapted programs to promote reading in Canada. What strikes me in your question and the position you have taken is that you are completely right. There is a huge risk today, because of the instant nature of electronic media, that American values and typically American information sources will take over completely. It is the daily newspapers that can help prevent that in Canada and create a very interesting dynamic in our communities that focuses on the vitality, news and life of these communities. It would be worthwhile going beyond this committee and forming a working group that could develop a series of suggestions. I am sure that it would be easy to do.
[English]
Senator Mercer: You can try and encourage young people to read, but you cannot make them read, and I know that we could have these programs, but I am wondering whether young people are interested in the news or whether perhaps we should, instead of using this shotgun approach of trying to convert everybody to read, if we could maybe go a little higher, perhaps it is too late, and target students who are in programs like history or who maybe belong to youth Parliaments. Whether there is some other way that we can try and engage those people who are maybe more likely to be interested in what we are trying to do.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: I can tell you an anecdote. The newspaperLa Presse, because it rejuvenated and modernized its product, is the Canadian newspaper that has made the most progress in reaching out to young readers. It has made an increase of 17 per cent in our distribution segment, which is huge. All newspapers in North America dream of being able to do that.
Candidates' selection is done by the vice-presidents responsible for counselling, but I do the final interview for each hire because I want to see what type of person we are bringing in. I am very interested in corporate culture. We are in the process of renewing our work force and I do a lot of interviews with people who are very familiar with the content of La Presse, people who readLa Presse and want to work for us, not only in the newsroom but in the various services. I asked people whether they were subscribers, what they liked and did not like.
One question that I always asked was whether their parents were subscribers when they were young. What I realize today is that the young people who read the newspaper today are the ones whose parents were subscribers. Throughout their childhood, they saw a newspaper lying on the table and they are now copying what their parents did. I find that inspiring. I believe that we do very little of what I call prevention in Canada. There is very little being done in that area. Of course, that is easy to say; I am not in a position where I can have an impact on our legislation, our policies but I look at different sectors.
If I look today at health care costs, there is no doubt that if I were in government I would be pushing hard for physical education programs in schools. If young people learn at a young age to play sport and be fit and healthy, that can have a huge impact on life expectancy and health care costs. I think that the same logic can be used with reading.
Even by working with the major Canadian papers, it would be possible at no cost, seven, eight, ten or twelve times a year, just during the school year, to choose one subject a month with the school boards. It would be extremely interesting for the students; a special section would be prepared and distributed in all our markets on subjects of interest to young people. Even if there is no advertising in these sections, ways could be found to pay for them. Editorial independence could be respected. I am sure that it would be profitable in the long term. There are things that can be done. We need to start talking to young people and changing their habits.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: Thank you very much, Mr. Crevier, for your excellent presentation. I will try to speak a bit of French, but it is difficult. I come from New Brunswick and we all have a challenge. My questions are practically the same as those of Senator Merchant. As always, I am very interested in young people and reading, newspapers, et cetera. I read with great interest the eight recommendations from the Spitz report and it seems to me that they target primarily postsecondary institutions. That is very important, but I am more interested in schools, and you are too, I believe.
On page 8, you say that you have the Cyberpress écoles program right now; that is your program that focuses on schools. Have you tried to work with teachers and librarians to provide free newspapers to schools and things like that?
Mr. Crevier: The program that I call Cyberpresse écoles was set up when I arrived at La Presse in 2000. Today 618 schools have complete access to all of our archives; it is quite something and they are very active. This was one of the good initiatives that we have taken. It means that teachers and schools use the Internet to search the archives in all fields and use them as teaching material to help young people do assignments. We have made great progress in that area.
The other aspect was the work that we have done with teachers, which is more difficult. There is really a lack of structure, and we will need full-time people to go explain how the archives work, how a teacher could use the newspapers, the information in their teaching, whether we are talking about the environment — we write a lot about that in our newspapers — political issues, society or ethics. That would take a larger budget than our Canadian newspapers have. Newspapers today are loosing circulation and lineage, and so it is very difficult for them to invest in these areas. That investment should be made, but it requires a large coordinated effort.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: It would probably be necessary to work with the provincial ministers of education.
Mr. Crevier: Topics could also be developed. I mentioned earlier the special sections that could be developed in our newspapers. These topics could be developed also for a number of things. When children are about to go on vacation, there could be a special section on activities that are available. There could be a section on the dangers of smoking. We could also let children have their say. One of my big dreams is that we could live in an environment where children can express themselves more and more.
In Quebec there is a primary school that has started to offer courses called ``philosophy at school.'' The idea is to give children a chance to express their views on various subjects. There has been a striking reduction in the incidence of violence in these schools. Things can be done, and they are not necessary very expensive.
This is not a criticism, but we do know that our governments still have a great deal of spending latitude. But what is really being done for children, our greatest asset. Let me rephrase that as follows: what are we doing today that will ensure that Canada would be a distinctive country in the years ahead, within an active population interesting in participating in community development?
Once again, I think newspapers are going to play a major role in this regard.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: I am very interested in your relationship with l'Acadie Nouvelle — and with the Canadian Press as well. Do you have any exchanges or a partnership with the journalists?
Mr. Crevier: We do not have any specific exchanges, we work through the Canadian Press. Despite the internal development of our networks, as we said at the parliamentary committee on press concentration and I repeated it today in my brief, we will always be partners of the Canadian Press, even if we can be independent, because 60 per cent of our articles are sent to CP. We could tell you that we are just going to share them among ourselves; we do that for Le Devoir, and for l'Acadie Nouvelle because we believe in the diversity of the print media and also in the importance of having a Canadian press agency in Canada.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: Could you just explain your relationship, Gesca's relationship with Radio Canada?
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: When we look at the number of dailies, television and radio stations, we see that we live in a rather special environment in Montreal. It is rather special in Canada, because this is the market with the greatest media concentration in North America and even in Europe. We are up against a competitor that is involved in dailies, owns the largest private television station in Quebec, owns the largest cable network, and is also a major supplier of Internet services, is the largest owner of magazines in Quebec and also has some very high-performance distribution networks, with the Videotron Superclubs and so on. This is a competitor which has achieved in a single market, a concentration that exists nowhere else in North America or Europe.
The agreement with Radio-Canada has been in place for about 20 years. In fact, La Presse calls a gala, the Gala de l'excellence. This is an absolutely fantastic event that has been going on for over 20 years. Every week an award is given to someone who does something positive in the francophone community. For 20 years, La Presse has had this agreement with Radio-Canada to promote the Gala de l'excellence. There are agreements with Radio-Canada in other sectors as well.
We also have agreements with about 10 communications firms — we have an agreement with TQS and with Télé- Quebec, for example.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: I just want to know what your business relationship is with Radio Canada. I do not care about the other ones.
Mr. Crevier: I understand. I gave you the example because I want to tell you that it is not only Radio Canada, but the others too.
[Translation]
It is not exclusive to Radio-Canada. To come back to Radio-Canada, when TVA was taken over by Quebecor, we felt into a reaffirm of our presence publicly. Let me explain why. We had some business relations with some announcers. We had agreements with some very active partners in the community, such as the Just for Laugh Festival and the Montreal Jazz Festival.
We felt attacked by Quebecor, which wanted to steal these agreements from us, which even told the advertisers that if they no longer advertised in La Presse or on Radio-Canada, they would take such and such action. So we simply reaffirmed publicly our good cooperation with Radio-Canada.
Time has passed, and we have not renewed this agreement, because we have worked well together in the last 20 years, and we do not need a written agreement to continue working well together on specific things.
Let me give you an example of the type of agreement we might have. We have a specific agreement regarding the Gala de l'excellence of La Presse. Recently, when Radio-Canada wanted to get the broadcast rights for the Olympic Games, it needed a media partner. They asked us and we agreed. Once in a while, Radio-Canada has called to tell us that it was conducting a rather costly survey and asked whether we could share the cost. We said yes.
Recently, we decided to do some promotional activities for major societal issues and debates in our community. One of the problems in Quebec is the declining birth rate. La Presse and Radio-Canada held a major conference on this subject. Each party paid for half of the cost and we invited specialists from around the world. So we do enter into specific agreements of this type with Radio-Canada. There is no other written agreement.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: It is just on a time-to-time basis.
Mr. Crevier: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: Radio Canada, is that radio and TV in Quebec?
Mr. Crevier: Radio and TV, correct.
Senator Tkachuk: Do they sell advertising on radio, or just on TV?
Mr. Crevier: On TV only, but they advertise their own product on radio.
Senator Tkachuk: It seems very unusual to me because Radio Canada is a Crown corporation, which gets money from taxpayers, to a large extent.
Mr. Crevier: Exactly.
Senator Tkachuk: Your company has a relationship with them where you share expenses on projects and news stories of which the taxpayer is paying towards. In other words, you are benefiting from taxpayers' money. Indirectly, but that is definitely what this relationship is. Does it not bother your competitors?
Mr. Crevier: It is not really like that.
Senator Tkachuk: I do not know how else you would explain it. It is a Crown corporation.
Mr. Crevier: I know it is a Crown corporation, but Radio Canada has an agreement with Le Devoir and with other players.
Senator Tkachuk: I have the same problem with that too.
Mr. Crevier: You can say it that way, if you want. I will try to give you another example.
[Translation]
Let us just say that last year we did a very bold poll at La Presse. We wanted to know the perception of all the players around the world just before the American election. This piece was played over and over again.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: I remember that poll.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: A poll of that type was very expensive. Radio-Canada was not involved in it with us. So what do we do in a case like that? We got on the telephone. I called my colleague at Le Monde to ask whether he was interested. He said he was. We called the newspaper El País. El País found another partner; so we make some calls and we divide the cost.
Sometimes we in the media do some things that are costly, and so we involve some partners. We do this regularly with The Toronto Star, with The Globe and Mail and occasionally with the National Post. We enter into agreements of this type with everyone.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: They are independent companies, though. I have no problem with that.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: Why not with Radio-Canada?
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: Radio Canada is a Crown corporation which receives tax money, whereas you are owned by Power Corporation, which is a for-profit company in the business of making money.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: I am trying to understand what you are saying. If Radio-Canada decides to do a poll today on a topical issue such as gay marriage and that the cost is $50,000, if they want to share that cost with the Globe and Mail and La Presse in order to reduce their costs, — because they too will have to manage their costs effectively — I do not think that Radio-Canada is doing anything wrong by calling us up and asking whether we would be prepared to pay one- third of the bill.
It is not a company — I do understand when you say that it is a company that receives government funding — but it is also not a company living in some sort of glass bubble. It is a company that lives in a community and which must be active there.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: You said Power Corporation has a hands-off attitude, but really Power Corporation is a very powerful institution in Quebec.
Mr. Crevier: Canada.
Senator Tkachuk: In Canada, and even though you say that they have a hands-off attitude, reporters are very intelligent people, normally, right? They know where their bread is buttered. The health of Power Corporation is the health of their newspaper or newspapers so why would they do anything to hurt the hand that feeds them? Why would they do that? Is there not a problem with that, just as there is with Disney owning ABC? ABC reporters also know where their bread is buttered.
[Translation]
Mr. Crevier: As I said in my presentation, I sincerely believe that there is no legislation or regulation that can change the philosophy of owners, the way in which they see their role.
Our owners do not intervene in the operation of the newspapers. The Desmarais will never call me up or get involved in the day-to-day operation of our newspapers. These are people who have set a number of guidelines and they let people do their jobs.
Let me just give you my example: I am the publisher ofLa Presse. It is also important to me to maintain the independence of my newsroom and I am the first defender of the newsroom. I do not have access to the texts of my newspaper and I do not want to hear about them. I often speak to advertisers during the day and if, for example, our journalists call up to investigate an issue, and there is someone involved whom I know well, I do not want any conflict of interest.
I am informed when a problem in one of our articles could result in a lawsuit. But I do not see the article. I ask a lawyer to read the article and sit down with the journalist to ensure that our information is accurate and has been checked, that we have the correct names, and so on. If there is a lawsuit, we want to be able to defend our position.
We are one of the most courageous newspapers. We have stopped publication of an article very very seldom. We have delayed things to check on the facts and to ensure that everything was correct, but I do not recall a case in the last five years where the publication of the article was postponed.
Let me give you a specific example. It has to do with Mr. Desmarais senior and his involvement in the University Medical Centre in Montreal. This is discussed every day in the newspapers. He got involved in this issue as a businessman because he favoured the creation of a technocity in Montreal. The investigating journalist, André Noël of La Presse has written the most articles in Quebec opposing this project. He was the first one to reveal the secret studies on security and who made them public at all levels. We ran these articles on the front page, and I never received a telephone call from Mr. Desmarais. They are people who do not get involved with such things.
Our reporters are professionals. I can tell you one thing — if you think that starting tomorrow, I can have an influence over what they write, that is far from being true. But I do understand your point of view, because the fact is I am convinced that it is always embarrassing for people to write articles about their bosses. But we are rigorous at our newspaper and we want to develop this type of reflex, regardless of the person we are writing about. We check the facts, we do a professional job and we make sure we get it right.
As a publisher, I consider myself lucky to have an owner or owners who show total respect for the independence of our newsroom. That is part of the philosophy of the owners.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: You can understand, as a politician, why we would view this with a lot of scepticism, considering I have been reading articles by newspapers and magazines all my life about how contributions to a political party influence our decisions, and we say, of course, it does not.
Mr. Crevier: I agree with you.
Senator Tkachuk: The next time you have a writer coming up to you with another big story about how money has influenced a politician, you might read it with the same scepticism.
The Chairman: We have now reformed political party financing.
Senator Tkachuk: We are now owned by the government, so what is the difference?
The Chairman: That is the people.
Senator Tkachuk: That is not the people.
[Translation]
The Chair: There are two areas I would like to explore a little with you, Mr. Crevier. First, on page 10 of your brief, you say that the birth of large press groupings is a phenomenon to be encouraged. You also say that a problem arises with concentration when a single player owns several types of first rank media within the same market. On this point, you say we believe that the supervisory and regulatory agencies have not displayed due diligence. This leads to a number of implications. What is your recommendation?
Mr. Crevier: We work in small markets in Canada. It is important that the regulatory agencies ensure there is a balance. Unfortunately, there is lack of balance today in two major Canadian markets.
The Chairman: Are you talking about new legislation?
Mr. Crevier: No, honestly. I have been filing applications with the CRTC for a long time. I was the president of TVA for a long time. I completed the purchase of the TVA network's acquisitions. The CRTC has all the tools it needs to do its job; everything depends on the way they are interpreted. With the CRTC and the Competition Bureau we are well equipped to face the music in Canada.
The Chairman: Where does the problem lie?
Mr. Crevier: These agencies have been too lax in their interpretation of the legislation and in their decisions. The level of concentration in some markets in Canada at the moment is disproportionate. I do not want to be misunderstood or misquoted: I am very much in favor of strong companies of having Canadian companies develop, make acquisitions and even go abroad. I have no problem with that. On the contrary, it must be encouraged. I am referring to concentration in the same market. All the polls show that Canadians are very concerned about the situation.
The Chairman: What constitutes the market in this context? Is it a region? A large city? A linguistic market?
Mr. Crevier: I like the definition of large city markets, markets where there is economic activity. In the case of Montreal, it is greater Montreal, including the south shore and the suburbs.
The Chairman: In the case of the dailies, this would be a normal distribution market.
Mr. Crevier: That is correct.
The Chairman: How many foreign correspondent offices does La Presse have?
Mr. Crevier: We have permanent foreign offices in Washington, London — although that position is vacant at the moment — Paris, and we regularly send journalists all over the place. Every week, tow or three journalists are in reporting assignments abroad.
The Chairman: Do you have any offices in Canada outside Quebec, with the exception of Ottawa?
Mr. Crevier: We have one in Toronto as well.
The Chairman: How much does a foreign office cost?
Mr. Crevier: The cost can be quite high. We would like to open an office in Beijing or Shanghai, because extraordinary things are happening in Asia. We have been adding this expense to our budget for four years now; we later had to remove it because of budget cutbacks. An office abroad can cost between $250,000 and $400,000, depending where it is.
The Chairman: Does that include travel expenses?
Mr. Crevier: Yes.
The Chairman: A correspondent in Beijing will travel around China and Japan. That is something a large company can consider, is it not?
Mr. Crevier: Yes, a large company could. But that is where this becomes a problem. I went to visit a newspaper in the United States, the Dallas Morning News, which has made fantastic progress in terms of quality and journalism. In a market like the Montreal market, they have a single daily. In Montreal, we have four dailies as well as the free newspapers. Our markets are very small. The population served by the Dallas Morning News has grown by close to one million people in the last ten years. There is construction going on everywhere. We are in small markets, and in recent years, the number of licences has multiplied. This means that in a market such as Sherbrooke, there are weeklies, dailies, three television stations and a radio station. All of that weakens the market.
When I came to the position at La Presse and I started rereading things and thinking about what we were doing, what struck me and continues to strike me with force is that our newspapers in Canada, our information media are always dealing with the same issues. In Quebec, every Christmas we talk about the overcrowded hospitals. At La Presse, we realized that our network of foreign correspondents is used very little to cover official events. If the Pope were to die this year, we would definitely send someone to Rome. That is only reasonable and we have no choice in the matter. Our network of foreign correspondents works a great deal on what I would call Canadian issues. We thought we should contribute to the debate, and I gave the example of hospitals. We have had two projects which will be published next week and which will be very interesting. We took independent committees of people and gave them access to research centers and to a wealth of information, and we asked them to think about how we could make our health care system more humane. These people came up with 16 fantastic recommendations. We involved hospital directors, health care workers, patients, and so on. These people came up with 16 new solutions that are easy to implement.
The other thing was that we said there must be some other country in the world that have reformed their health care system. Were there any success stories? We decided to go and meet with these people. We sent our journalists to four countries to see what happened there. When they came back, they wrote articles. We want to broaden the debate.
The problem for a country like Canada, with its small market, with media that are not necessarily very rich, is that we cannot afford foreign coverage. We are always rehashing our old problems, the same old debates, the same old headlines, without shedding any new light on the issues. I think that it is tremendously important for a society to have some foreign coverage. We have done that recently.
I mentioned the University Hospital Centre in Montreal. In that case, we talked more about railway tracks than the quality of service, because the hospital was supposed to be built beside a railway track. We went to investigate. We were so tired of the debate that did not go away. La Presse decided to send some people to Toronto and to John Hopkins Hospital to find out why it was number one in the United States.
We found that it was located in old buildings and that that was not the important thing. The important thing was the link with the university and the teaching methods used, the links the hospital had established with the private sector in order to facilitate its research work. Daily newspapers that can afford to send people abroad make a huge contribution to the debate within a society. Unfortunately, in Canada, very few dailies can afford foreign coverage.
The Chairman: Very few have any foreign coverage.
Mr. Crevier: But the financial performance of Canadian dailies compared to that of American dailies is very poor. The financial performance of Quebec dailies is even worse.
The Chairman: What is an acceptable profit level for a daily?
Mr. Crevier: The Canadian average is a return of about 20 per cent. In Quebec, some newspapers are below 10 per cent. The average is around 10 or 12 per cent in our group. We are far from the Canadian average and even farther from the American average, which can be as high as 28 per cent.
The Chairman: Is it necessary to constantly increase profits in a company considered mature, but that provides a service — as you put it so well yourself — of such importance to the public?
Mr. Crevier: Your question is interesting, because I do think that when a company or an industry has reached a type of maturity, with a limited potential growth, we should in fact be satisfied with maintaining the profit level or increasing it only slightly.
The Chairman: In other words, a good rate of return.
Mr. Crevier: Of course, a good rate of return makes a number of things possible: it allows us to set up training programs, to renew our staff and equipment and to introduce new projects. The problem in newspapers and communication medias is that we are rather myopic. There have been so many changes in the last 15 years, such as specialty channels and the Internet, that we have to change the way we work. There are many more solid press groups in Europe at the moment, which have invested in new initiatives that are working very well. They had the money to do so. They got into magazines and television production. They got involved in compact format production. A German group started up a high-quality compact format, smaller than European tabloids, but very high in quality, with a maximum of 24 pages.
Their target readers were very young, very well-educated people with university backgrounds who simply did not have enough time to read. They kept their large-size format as well. They are involved in many initiatives. But in order to get them off the ground, the company must be very solid financially. The 20 per cent standard in Canada is very acceptable, even though it is below the American standard.
There have been a lot of experiments in Europe involving new newspapers and new products. We can learn from them.
The Chairman: I would like to thank you, Mr. Crevier. This has been extremely interesting. You will not forget to send us...
Mr. Crevier: Definitely, the two things you requested.
The Chairman: I would add a third: the number of journalists you have in the various newspapers. As you know, Gesca's union group testified before us when we were in Montreal and was very concerned about what is happening. We would like you to describe the trends in newsrooms. That would be wonderful.
So once again, we thank you. This has been extremely interesting.
[English]
The Chairman: Colleagues, this meeting stands adjourned.
The committee adjourned.