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Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Agriculture and Forestry

Issue 20 - Evidence - Meeting of March 9, 2007 - Afternoon meeting

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STEINBACH, MANITOBA, Friday, March 9, 2007

The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 12:46 p.m. to examine and report on rural poverty in Canada.

Senator Joyce Fairbairn (Chairman) in the chair.

[English]

The Chairman: Before we start, I would like to welcome Mr. Toews, who is the head of the Treasury Board for the Government of Canada. This is his area, and we are very pleased that he has taken the time to attend here.

I know that you would support every word we are saying, Mr. Toews.

Hon. Vic Toews, Member of Parliament: So far.

The Chairman: So far.

This afternoon, we have with us Louise Lawrie, who will present as an individual; we also pleased to have with us Allan Gaudry, who is the vice-chair of the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation. As well, Muriel Bugera is here; Ms. Bugera is the economic development officer of the Chaboillé Community Development Corporation.

Welcome, all. We look forward to hearing what you have to say, following which there will be a question period by senators. Our committee will produce a report that will draw a focus on rural Canada. We know you have had — like every other part of Canada we have been through — difficulties, but there is a spirit that is absolutely strong and is not going away.

Louise, please proceed.

Louise Lawrie, as an individual: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. I did struggle with determining what to say, and in the end I have decided to share some observations and a story similar to Laurel's from Pukatawagan.

I have lived in the north, primarily in Churchill, for most of my life; I have also spent some extended time at Tadoule Lake, a small reserve one hour west by air from Churchill. The conditions in each community are different. The poor in Churchill are not on the streets. Through family and/or friends, they have a roof over their head and they have food to eat. The hardships faced by those living in Tadoule Lake are much harsher. Children do go hungry and help is harder for them to receive.

I have a few observations and experiences to share with you. One is about a senior who for many years lived in Nova Scotia, came to Churchill and found herself totally destitute. She came with only the clothes on her back and over $1,000 in debt. Her income was just over $1,000 a month. It was her family that ran up her debt, as well as the credit card companies who extended credit to her. Her friends in Churchill stood beside her. She is now quite comfortable in an apartment of her own with a little bit of money in the bank.

Throughout the North, there are ongoing negotiations with Manitoba Hydro and with federal government land claims and bands that are put into a co-management position. Huge amounts of monies are spent on meetings and negotiations, but the actual communities see very little benefit. Most of the dollars go out of the community.

In the north, we have very high freight rates. I did notice in the report the portion about freight rates going down, but certainly not in our part of the woods. High freight rates result in very high food costs. It is troubling to me that liquor in the liquor store costs the same as it does in Winnipeg, but a quart of milk will cost you double what it would in Winnipeg.

Our Northern medical system has very high health costs. We have a lot of local doctors and nurses that come up for a short period of time. Those doctors and nurses do not get to know the community and the patients are not really receiving the care they need. The system has to change; a longer-term time commitment is required. If the medical people were to stay for longer periods of time, the cost to our medical system would be quite a bit lower.

The nutrition education program at this point is not really working. We are still facing, in our hospital, one week a month of dental surgery for the young children from the North. We have an increase in diabetics, although we have a lot of education programs, and for some reason they are not having the effect that we really need.

In the 1970s, a Churchill prefab plant was operating. Up to that time, work was pretty well seasonal; in other words, unemployment was very high. The employment office in our community was proactive. When the program was set up, if the workers did not turn up for work, the people from the employment office went to pick the workers up. To this day, some of them laugh about it, feeling they might as well get up and go to work, because, if not, somebody will be knocking at their door.

The pay day ritual was quite intense. It was a case of a person picking them up, helping them cash their cheques and paying the rent and groceries. Several of these people are now contributing members of the community with good work ethics. A lot of people in our communities need this type of support.

The policies will not eradicate poverty; rather, best practices will help to alleviate poverty. The supports that are given have to come with expectations. If daycare is provided for a child and the mother is not working, the mom should be coming to daycare to help out.

Income security, with an expectation of community work, should be part of them receiving that support. Volunteering in the breakfast program, enrolling in adult upgrading, getting some skills so that they can become part of the work force, and this will change the attitude and certainly change the dynamics of the family.

We need to revise our practices to make a difference, to ensure that each dollar spent results in a positive change in the lives of the members of our community. We need cooperation between the different agencies, so that rather than duplicating some of the services, we can actually expand the services and make a difference in the lives of the young people and the seniors and families in our communities.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Mr. Gaudry.

Allan Gaudry, Vice-Chair, Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers' Federation: Good afternoon. The commercial fishing industry is a vital part of Manitoba's economy and has been for the past 200 years. It was of the first industries in the Manitoba, along with the fur trade. In many Aboriginal communities, commercial fishing is the only economy that provides employment opportunities.

In 2005, the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers' Federation, MCIFF, was formed as a province-wide body to create a unified voice, to protect interests and address and overcome challenges faced by fishers in Manitoba. The MCIFF is comprised of 12 board directors, province-wide, and a chairperson. The MCIFF is mandated to promote, lobby and negotiate agreements, subject to the will of the fishers, to oversee policies and operations of governments, and to ensure the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, FFMC, and other corporations are accountable to the fishers of Manitoba.

The newly formed federation has taken positive steps to address and identify challenges and concerns of fishers and to ensure that proper measures are clearly researched and examined as they relate to freight cost, fuel cost, funding for fishers and interest rates on loans. The fishers federation is also supported and recognized by other groups acting on their behalf for the fishers of Manitoba.

The MCIFF has the support of the First Nations and Metis nation as they move towards a comprehensive review of FFMC and its policies, secure long-term funding and establish working relationships with industry and government departments. The federation has several supporting resolutions outlining the relevant issues that need to be addressed by government and decision makers.

The Freshwater Fish Marketing Act mandates the FFMC to purchase all commercially caught fish in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, NWT and parts of Northwestern Ontario. The Freshwater Fish Marketing Cooperation is a federal crown corporation created in 1969. The FFMC is modeled after the Canadian Wheat Board. The FFMC is the buyer, processor and marketer of freshwater fish for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, NWT and parts of Northern Ontario. The mandate of the corporation is to purchase fish harvested and offered for sale, to increase fish trades and to increase returns to fishermen.

The FFMC serves approximately 3,500 fishers and approximately 80 per cent are Aboriginal fishers. FFMC hires 35 agents to deal with the fishers, fishing 300 to 500 lakes, and landing their catch at one of 75 delivery points scattered through FMCC's trade and market territory. Manitoba is considered to have the largest commercial fishery within the jurisdiction of the FFMC.

The MCIFF board of directors, with input from members, has outlined the following priorities. Elected board members to the FFMC; regional processing; disaster assistance; and where the dams have been created to allow fish migration in those river systems, it has obstructed the fish from moving into different lakes due to dams being constructed to control lake levels.

There are 11 positions on the board that are Order-in-Council appointments — five appointed on recommendations of the participating provincial governments. The corporation has six directors that are fishers and Aboriginal. The corporation employs 350 seasonal employees. That is about it.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Muriel Bugera.

Muriel Bugera, Economic Development Officer, Chaboillé Community Development Corporation: As I prepared for my presentation this morning, I also had a dilemma in determining how to put my message across. Rural poverty is such a multifaceted issue, and I personally have a problem recognizing it, as the rose-coloured glasses that I look through for community development and for farming allow me to see a rural poverty that is nevertheless rich.

I therefore proceeded to read your interim report, "Understanding Freefall: The Challenge of the Rural Poor,'' which I found truly grasped the essence of the problems and solutions. So if I could not tell you anything you did not know, then what was left for me to do was to talk about my experience as an economic development officer and as a farmer. After all, your report does state that your committee is looking forward to meeting residents in areas that have shown some success in fighting against rural decline and rural poverty.

First of all, I think it is important to review the definition of community economic development. It aims to improve the long-term economic viability of communities. It involves managing economic change to effectively meet a community or area's needs and objectives through emphasis on self-help, participation, partnerships and control. It is based on a bottom-up philosophy that relies on using the community's own resources, people, capital, management, creativity and pride to improve economic well-being.

The first step is for rural communities to recognize that they have a problem that needs addressing and that, if they do not address it, no one else will. In my community of 4,000 residents, which is the St. Pierre-Jolys/St. Malo area located just 20 minutes southwest of here, we undertook an intense consultation process with our residents. As a matter of fact, it was partially funded by the rural secretariat. This process helped to bring to light two underlying issues that were holding us back, the fear of growing and changing and the fear of losing our francophone language and culture. We were only able to take steps towards action once we faced these issues and confronted in our minds that we would be worse off if we did not do anything.

So having made our commitment to grow, we then proceeded to paint a picture of what we wanted to be like, to look like, many years down the road. We did a community assessment and proceeded to build on our strengths and eliminate our weaknesses. We developed action plans, prioritized them, implemented them, and continue to repeat and revisit this process. This year, we are celebrating 10 years of uninterrupted and diligent work.

What have we to show for this? Well, we organized ourselves as a region, two rural municipalities, the Village of St. Pierre-Jolys and the Regional Municipality of de Salaberry, in order to ensure a critical mass of services and attractions and to work more collaboratively with our neighbouring communities. We created a community development corporation and hired a full-time staff, myself, to keep focused on changes because they do not happen over night. Having staff also took pressure off the volunteers.

We participated in the establishment of a bilingual services centre in our community, so federal, provincial, employment and community resources would be at a local level. We are nurturing our leaders and all human resources by looking at different ways of providing training through local and urban schools, and video-conferencing capabilities. We develop relationships with partners who play a supportive role in our development, federal and provincial government departments, the Economic Development Council for Manitoba Bilingual Municipalities, Community Futures, and the Canada/Manitoba Business Service Centre. We set up our own broadband service by creating a regional communications cooperative, recently partnering with neighbouring municipalities to help make it stronger. We are assisting one of our local hog farmers to get bio-gas off the ground by nurturing relationships with the provincial and federal governments. We have created a formal agreement with the provincial government to be able to use the local provincial park during the off-season, to encourage more year-round winter activities. We worked with neighbouring municipalities to bring the Trans Canada Trail south of Winnipeg using the historical route of a Red River cart trail. We have even taken on the challenge of rural physician retention.

I could go on and on and then start on the list of yet-to-dos. The point I want to make is that once we reaffirmed that doing nothing meant that we would be worse off, and once the leaders made an unwavering commitment to the picture that the community helped to paint, the rest became the journey and the partners who joined us.

Your presence here today speaks loudly to the recognition that the problem of rural poverty exists, and your interim report states that it is part of a larger issue, that of rural Canada's relative economic and demographic decline. Your report goes on to describe why rural Canada is important and how Canada will be worse off with only an urban Canada.

I shall quote from the reports, in part:

. . . many people like the lifestyle of rural areas. . . . If we lose our rural communities, we lose that option value. . . . we lose something not only for today but for centuries. . . . In that sense, a healthy rural Canada helps to promote a stronger environment. Another reason is cultural; we lose much of our heritage when we lose our rural communities.

Your report, however, also provides evidence of underlying issues that are preventing a progressive approach to rural growth. Here are some excerpts from your report that demonstrate these issues. "Our rural areas are in relative, if not in a many cases an absolute decline. It is a difficult task to try and stand in the way of that or reverse it; the process is pretty irresistible.'' Some witnesses placed limits on how much governments should do to keep rural regions alive through economic development or job creation programs. "Instead government programs should encourage labour mobility and help those who are able to leave to find employment elsewhere.'' And finally, . . .'' proponents of this view also believe that rural areas will likely experience large absolute population and employment declines in coming decades. It is, therefore, unrealistic to try to sustain services in these areas. Governments should focus instead on preparing for eventual depopulation.''

I believe the solution to rural poverty starts with an unwavering commitment to rural population growth, or urbanization will continue and Canada will be worse off. The next step is to have a clear picture of what rural Canada will look like in the future and to start working towards that picture.

Professor Sentance warns that, as the population dwindles, you get to the point at which governments are not willing to support infrastructure and that infrastructure must be in place in order for opportunities to take place. He said that rural Canada, small towns, will get nowhere without facilities or businesses. To me, it means that an investment has to be made now, before we lose more ground.

Now, allow me to put my French farmer's hat on.

[Translation]

I firmly believe that that formula can be used in the agricultural sector. My work, and especially my experience in community and economic development, have certainly helped me these past years to meet the challenges on the farm. Once again, your preliminary report captured the critical situation farmers are facing, however, I wonder if people understand the real nature of the crisis. It is worrisome when you can count on the fingers of your hand the number of young people in a rural school who live on a farm. Who is going to produce tomorrow's food?

I consider that our family is lucky, because our oldest son wants to continue to operate our farm, but it is clear that he will be doing it in his own way. Already, in order to maintain his interest, we have begun animal production and organic farming. All we knew was grain farming, and these changes have not been easy. Our animal farm saw the light of day thanks to the resources we sought out to help us to create a new undertaking with a neighbouring family that had the same needs as we did. So, in 2002 we purchased a herd of 30 Alberta Angus cows and today we have about 100, which we raise without hormones. As for organic farming, we took a training program from the Canadian Agricultural Skills Service, and retained the services of a marketing consultant. Our organic golden flax will soon be on the shelves of specialty stores and the label will give some information about us. We do not expect to be able to make a living solely from the income from our herd and organic production. Rather, we are trying to reduce our expenditures.

Of course, we are not the only ones to be exploring new avenues, but the statistics in your report bear witness to the fact that there are far more farmers who choose to leave the farm. In 1931, 67 per cent of the rural population lived on farms, while in 2001, that figure had dropped to 11 per cent.

So one thinks about the steps of economic community development. One wonders: first, is there a firm commitment to agriculture in Canada? Second, will the picture that has been drawn of the situation be followed by an action plan?

If one refers once again to your interim report, one reads:

Dr. Apedaile argues we cannot leave our farmers at the mercy of market forces: "[F]armers are needed in this country, and they are needed for all kinds of reasons. Therefore the pricing of the services that they produce is not discovered and we think that they are probably therefore not important.''

As Dr. Cummings reminded us, hardship on the farm is leading to a situation where "farming is seen as a life with few prospects [and] where depression, crisis and/or debt seriously impact many farm families.''

Just as rural communities must recognize that their situation will get worse if they do nothing, by the same token the country will lose if we do not commit to increasing the number of small, medium and large farms that sell to local, national and international markets, or even only produce for family consumption. By using the community and economic development recipe, assistance to farmers should aim to identify strengths and weaknesses, build on the one and address the other, and provide expertise to assist with the latter. The more we manage to increase the number of farms, the greater our success in attacking rural poverty and the decline of the rural population will be.

[English]

In closing, I think it is only fitting that I use Dr. Freshwater's words, as quoted in your report:

There is a belief about rural people that they are independent, they have a high degree of community, they are willing to cooperate and bring about change. That is true, but they have very limited resources. The things that we ask them to do when things are downloaded from national and provincial governments to rural areas, in many ways, are more than they can manage.

In other words, rural communities themselves must come up with economic development and poverty-alleviation ideas that are best suited to their particular needs. The federal and provincial governments can then help with funding, policy design and implementation if and where need be. Dr. Jean put it succinctly: "The best rural policies are those managed in collaboration with the rural communities.''

Honourable senators, I leave you with one final community economic development tip. If you want to know what your future will look like, create it. I say, let's create it together.

The Chairman: Thank you all very much.

Senator Zimmer: Thank you for your presentations. They were very insightful, and candour is appreciated.

Ms. Lawrie, you talked about revising practices, and you indicated that one of them was to cooperate with departments. Are there any other practices you want to expand on or maybe move into? In terms of the practices you have put in place to solve some of the problems, have you had any success or have you been able to measure any of them at this point, or is it too early to tell?

Ms. Lawrie: The example that I gave of the Churchill prefab plant involved cooperation between the provincial, federal and municipal levels of government. The approach may not have been allowed in bigger centres, in terms of actually picking up the people for work, if they did not turn up, and holding their hand as they paid their bills, but it did make a big difference in our community. In a matter of just two, three years, we had functioning families, and there was a pride that you noticed in the children at school. They had bikes and things that the other children had because their families did have a steady job. Petty theft and those sorts of activities went down. It made a marvellous difference for the period of time the prefab plant operated.

Unfortunately, the powers that be felt that it was not feasible to continue it, although locally we did feel that there was a market in the north for houses. We feel that, had the right people been in favour of it, it could have continued. Nevertheless, there are still families that are contributing members in the community, who have trades that are still carrying them through as far as providing for their families go. We had some unique methods in our community, methods that may be frowned on in larger jurisdictions. I think they are worth looking at.

We have one family with a child who is disabled, and that child is in daycare. Neither parent is working. I do not understand why we cannot say to the parents, "This service is there for your child, but we want you to come in with your child'' — for a specific number of hours a week. The parents will learn parenting skills; they will become better parents themselves. The encouragement for people to get some income assistance, with the expectation that they can go out and work and not lose their income security, is an important change that should take place.

Senator Zimmer: Thank you. Actually, all three presentations are very innovative, very positive, and it is very refreshing to hear that.

Ms. Bugera, your presentation was very innovative. You took the initiative to create a 10-year plan and actually went through some of your innovative ideas. Have you gone beyond that, done a further 10-year plan, where you measure deliverables or what your objectives are? As well, are you keeping the various levels of government posted on your innovative ideas and your deliverables and successes, especially the municipal level, based on the education, economics, resources, development and family values? Are you keeping them posted and working mainly with the municipal level, which is really here on the ground?

Ms. Bugera: Yes. We were created by the municipal council as a tool for economic development. Municipal councils are only part of the tool; they focus on the infrastructure. However, in terms of a global approach, a multi-sectoral approach, as we have heard already before this morning, there needs to be a coordinating arm that looks at all of the aspects of the community. The municipal council sits on our community development board; they give us input as to where they would want us to go.

You are talking about the future. After 10 years, we feel that we have addressed the community needs enough to get the ball rolling where we can focus a little bit more on the economy and helping our businesses, and that is what our municipal governments are asking us to do now. So that will be more of the focus in the next 10 years.

Senator Zimmer: That is very innovative, and it should be a role model for many other regions in the province.

Senator Chaput: Ms. Lawrie, you talked about — and I quote, "Getting skills do change attitudes.'' We agree with that. In a perfect world, to change attitudes, where would you start and what would be the priorities?

Ms. Lawrie: It has to be through education — a practical approach, but also very encouraging. I am talking about an approach similar to the prefab plant approach. I do not have a problem with knocking on the doors, making sure the children are at school, continually talking with the parents about the importance of nutrition and well-rested children and children attending school — trying to get the parents involved that way. I prefer that approach over having several people working with the family — a probation officer, a social worker. Some families have numerous people working with them. To me, it is an imposition. I would support fewer people working with the families, a total approach. When too many people are involved — often they have so many families to work with that the outcome is limited in terms of any positive changes. I think an whole approach, where, say, a general practitioner will work with the family to try to make a difference, instead of all of the specialists that they call in right away.

Senator Chaput: Mr. Gaudry, you talked about your board of directors being elected by the membership. Who is the membership of MCIFF, the fishers, the communities?

Mr. Gaudry: The fishers are the members.

Senator Chaput: How many members do you have, approximately?

Mr. Gaudry: Our federation has 1,000 active members. There are about 3,500 licensed fishers in Manitoba, but our federation is only a year and a few months old. It is growing.

Senator Chaput: When you say you are supported and recognized by other groups acting on behalf of the fishers, can you give me examples of those other groups?

Mr. Gaudry: The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs is a strong supporter; SCO, the Southern Chiefs Organizations is also a supporter. As well, we have the support of the municipalities where the fishing economy is huge in their community.

[Translation]

Senator Chaput: Ms. Bugera, you mentioned at one point in your presentation that some people had recommended investing in the rural sector. You said that you were in agreement with that idea and that investments were needed. Based on your experience, where should those funds be invested? What would be the priority areas, if we are to continue to develop and build on what has already been done?

Ms. Bugera: For us, roads are a priority. We are on Route 59, which is parallel to Route 75, which goes directly to Mexico from Winnipeg. We feel that Route 59 needs investments which would really help all of the southeast of Manitoba. Without roads we cannot really develop industry. Residents are scared to travel and so they decide to work in the big cities. Visitors, tourists, are often afraid to use roads that are not in good repair, so they choose to travel the roads they know. So for us, roads are a very high priority.

Senator Chaput: If you had to choose a second priority, and if we had a lot of funds, what would that be?

Ms. Bugera: If there were a lot of funds, I would say that education and training are the basis of everything. Education is never lost. People must be developed, trained in community development. That concept is fundamental. Few people understand it, whether they be advisers, politicians, or workers in non-profit organizations; it is important that this concept be understood by everyone who lives in rural areas, and even urban ones. Education and training, however, will really help people to be able to move forward. This would be the area I would invest in as a second priority.

Senator Chaput: Would you include the trades in that training priority?

Ms. Bugera: Certainly. We can sometimes be creative. We are lucky because we have created a partnership with the province. We receive funds on an annual basis for education and training. Education, training and community development go together. This allows us to move ahead with proactive projects to meet the needs of the community. One of the projects we created last year was an exploration of trades for women. Then we developed a program where women could explore all sorts of trades in urban colleges. Afterwards, if they chose one, they could join an apprenticeship program. This year I think we are going to open this up to young people and others, but this was something specific for women, because there needs to be a lot of attitudinal changes in the workplace in this regard. When you integrate women into the trades, that is really an interesting project.

Senator Chaput: In the case of your personal experience on the farm, you decided to diversify because you wanted your son to continue your work. What would it take to encourage other people to do likewise; is there something that could be done to encourage more families to do so, and thus allow us to keep our farms, to keep people in the rural areas and perhaps even to interest our young people in going back to the farm? Is there something in your experience that you have seen which you could suggest?

Ms. Bugera: I attended a Department of Agriculture session on new techniques for the upcoming generation of farmers. It was really good. You get help from a consultant because it is difficult for people on a family farm to talk to each other. In any case, a consultant comes to help you; he helps you assess your skills and your vision for the future. We have to learn to tap into the interests and skills of the family members to know in which direction the farm should go. You cannot just think that because your grandparents and parents did things a certain way, nothing will change. You really have to be ready to change, you have to change. All of the market indicators tell us so. But this is not something everyone does in the same way. It has to be analyzed on a farm-by-farm basis; you have to see what is best for your farm, according to your skills. It is important to get people from outside the family, a neighbour, a cousin, young people in the rural community who really want to work on the farm but may not have had the opportunity of being born into a family farm. We have to develop the possibilities because it is crucial that we ensure the survival of agriculture, of our farms. We cannot limit ourselves to what we know; we have to look to the future and what needs to be done.

[English]

Senator Mercer: Thank you, all three of you for being here. We have heard some very interesting and innovative things.

Mr. Gaudry, we have heard a lot about global warming; we have seen some of its effects in our travels over the past few weeks. Has global warming had a direct effect on the fishery here in Manitoba as well? I will ask my second question of you at the same time. Have the mercury levels in the fish changed dramatically for better or worse in the last couple of years?

Mr. Gaudry: Climate change has affected our winter fishery. In the last six years, we have not been able to fish in the month of November. Prior to that, we could be on that lake fishing on the 15th of November. For that reason, we believe that global climate change is happening. It denies us opportunity to harvest at an appropriate time, when the fish are in the shores and the bays. Once that opportunity is missed, an income is missed. That opportunity is no longer there once the lake freezes over in December. The last few years, the lake has frozen by the 2nd or 4th of December, so the whole month of November, or part of that month, is missed opportunity.

Changes have to come with management of the fishery. We have to lobby governments to allow us to fish in that open water fishery; however, lobbying is not easy when they are concerned about sustainability of the crops of fish. Hence, it is a challenge to lobby government to allow for change. It is not a change that happened because we caused it; it was something that was caused by other than the fishing industry. So climate change is real and we believe it is having an effect on our fishery.

As far as the quality of fish, Lake Winnipeg is getting a lot of attention, for phosphorous, nitrous. A lot has not had an effect on the fishery — the quality of the fish is still very good.

Our concern is that governments blame the fishery on overharvesting; that is where governments point the finger. We are an easy target. We are harvesting the crops of fish in a lake. All a sudden, if the crop is not there, the fingers are pointing, well, they overharvested. That is an easy way out. At the same time, if the fishery does collapse, research needs to be done; hopefully fingers will be pointed in other directions. Perhaps the quality of water has impacted the fishery. We need to do that research, we need that data collection. So far, it has not affected our fishery; our fishery is still healthy fish.

Senator Mercer: Ms. Bugera, I want to ask about the schools in your community. We have seen schools that would be a key indicator of the downturn or the rebirth of rural areas. Has the enrolment in your schools, particularly your high school, gone up or down, and has the graduation level, percentage-wise, changed dramatically?

Ms. Bugera: We have been maintaining our amounts and are slightly increasing at this time. Therefore, not dramatic changes, but as long as it does not go down, we are happy — no, we are not happy with just settling.

Senator Mercer: Do you have a hospital in your community?

Ms. Bugera: Yes.

Senator Mercer: Have you been able to retain the doctors and nurses that you need for the hospital?

Ms. Bugera: We have a continuing problem with that. I made a bit of a reference to it. I have also been on a health action committee since regionalization took place in our province, in order to make sure that we were well informed about what that did to our communities because, as you may know, hospital boards were dissolved at that time. We wanted to make sure that we had community members who were still knowledgeable about what was happening. We have had many challenges. We have always been working closely with South Eastman Health and are in the process of developing a medical clinic that has been started up by a community in another area in Manitoba, which is very successful. We are trying to model on an already winning formula. We want the community to be much more involved in running the medical clinic, and then the doctors can be a little more hands-off from the Regional Health Authority. We believe this might be a solution.

In our case, people would think we are only half an hour from Winnipeg and in one of the largest areas in Southeast Manitoba where the population is increasing. What is the problem? The problem is that we can attract physicians, but we have trouble maintaining them. Physicians in rural areas are overworked: They are responsible for emergency, on- call and regular medical situations. If there are not enough physicians, they just get burned out. Then we have to replace them, which is not a very good situation. Therefore, we are looking at putting in place a more sustainable solution and working with South Eastman Health to do that.

Senator Mercer: Thank you. Ms Lawrie, you are right. It does not work in cities this way, but you have to be impressed when the employment officer picks you up to make sure you get to work. I like those kind of bureaucrats; they are few and far between.

You are talking about people going to school as well. When I was young, we had truant officers; if you did not show up at school, they came to find you. Perhaps that is what you are suggesting we go back to. I am not suggesting it is a bad thing. If it gets people in school and to work when they are supposed to be, maybe it is necessary.

Ms. Lawrie: I believe some of the supports that we have in place are sitting in the offices. They have to get out from behind the desk and give support in the family homes as much as possible. It looks good on paper that we have all these people that are supporting the families and the people getting out to work. However, if they are not out making that direct contact, it does not have the effect that it should.

Senator Mercer: They are doing this; they are shuffling the paper.

Ms. Lawrie: Yes.

Senator Mercer: It is a frustration that we all have with the process.

Senator Gustafson: I have some questions about the fishing business. I am a dirt farmer and know nothing about fishing. How long is your fishing season?

Mr. Gaudry: Our winter fishery is November 1 to March 15 on Lake Manitoba. Lake Winnipeg is September 1 to October 30 — that is a fall fishery. Also, there is a spring fishery around the end of May to the end of June. Lake Winnipegosis has a fishery from July 15 to the end of September. Different lakes have different season dates, but some lakes have a winter fishery, which is challenged with climate change.

Senator Gustafson: A fisherman obviously has a boat. How many people work on a boat?

Mr. Gaudry: Usually, one fisher has one or two helpers.

Senator Gustafson: He has one or two helpers?

Mr. Gaudry: Yes.

Senator Gustafson: What would be an average income?

Mr. Gaudry: An average would be around $25,000 to $30,000. Some fishers have larger quotas that they can harvest; they can have an income of $40,000 to $50,000. However, as the prices decline, as we have seen in the past, there is more pressure on volume to maintain that $40,000 or $50,000 income. Of course, extra volume harvesting is a challenge because the province is managing it and saying that we cannot have that opportunity to harvest. How do we maintain that income as prices decline?

Senator Gustafson: You have a commodity that could spoil. Have you got a ready market all the time?

Mr. Gaudry: The market is a year round market; it is Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, FFMC. The majority of the market is in the winter. They buy the fish in June, July, August and September. Most of it is stored in the freezers. It is hard to compete with the Great Lakes during those months because they have a great fishery and better quality. Our concern is the quality we have at the FFMC. We believe that we should be moving the processing part to a regional processing plant in the communities where it would create jobs and a better quality fish. When Lake Winnipeg opens their fishery, the volume of fish comes in through the plant; they can not process that fish, so it is frozen, in the round or in its dressed form, and then gutted and filleted later on — such as now. Therefore, that causes quality problems. We believe there has to be some change and revised review of the policy of the FFMC.

Senator Gustafson: When this committee was in the Maritimes, they told us they would take their fish and ship it to China, and it would be processed and shipped back. Do you do that too?

Mr. Gaudry: They did that, but the quality was not there. When the fish is frozen once or twice and then brought back and put in the market, the quality is not there. It was shipped to China to be deboned. There is no equipment designed to debone fish; it has to be done manually. They did that as an experiment, because the labour is very cheap in China. It was shipped there to see what kind of product would come back. It only lasted a few months, a few shipments and that was it.

Senator Gustafson: When you are ice fishing, I have often wondered how you get the net from one hole to another.

Mr. Gaudry: We have under-ice crawlers that pull the line in, and then once the line is under the ice, the net can be put in.

Senator Mahovlich: Ms. Lawrie, you mentioned that we have a problem with diabetes, that there is an increase in diabetes. What are we doing about that?

Ms. Lawrie: They have set up dieticians that are working with families and individuals. Again, in our instance, in Churchill, the person is sitting in the health centre waiting for people to come in; they have to get out from behind their desks, go to the homes and work with them on their diet.

Senator Mahovlich: They have to work on their diet?

Ms. Lawrie: Their diet, yes, most definitely — and exercise. It just has to be a more proactive approach. It looks good on paper, but if all of these supports are having no effect, the method has to be changed.

Senator Mahovlich: Ms. Bugera, with respect to infrastructure, you were saying the government's priority has to be to build the infrastructure in order to succeed.

Ms. Bugera: For us, where we are at this point, yes. I am not saying that for other communities the infrastructure has to be put in right away. First, communities have to go through the process of wanting to change and of realizing that they have a part in that role; that they have to do something also. After those steps, they would see who they can work with to create a critical mass. Then they would put a plan into place as to where their priorities are and what they will do one step at a time to improve their situation.

Senator Mahovlich: I came from Northern Ontario, and we had a great recreational system; Lions Clubs and different Rotary Clubs. We had an arena that was built by the mines. It was very good for community morale, to keep everybody active. Is this a priority?

Ms. Bugera: Recreational centres are very important to the communities, just as every other sector. However, we have seen that where hockey was number one before and the arenas were being used almost all year round, now they are not and people are much more diversified in their recreational activities. Therefore, in our area, we have identified a great need to develop programs in order to use the infrastructure facilities that we have year round for all ages of our population. Again, it is a change of attitude. If we want to try to keep our arena alive, by offering hockey for a few months when very few people play hockey, then, no, we will not be able to do that. We need to assess what is the reality of today and what we need to do in order to keep up. However, we do need some government assistance. We have proposals in now for funding to do renovations for a more geothermal energy saving facility, et cetera. We need to partner with governments for this type of infrastructure.

Senator Mahovlich: Very good. Mr. Gaudry, a few years ago there was a crisis that developed in this area — I believe it was the Devils Lake situation. How did the FFMC react to that, and what is the outcome? Is that still going on, or have we solved that problem?

Mr. Gaudry: The Devils Lake diversion of water to the Red River was a big concern. The concern is about the unknown species of fish or other micro-organisms that will get through the system and end up in our waters. Will that have an effect on our fishery? There was not enough research done on the quality of water of those lakes, which is coming into our lake, and there is concern. In the last few months, or year or so, I have heard nothing of it. It was a big issue at one time, but, all of a sudden, it is pretty quiet. What happened? Is that fear still there? I believe it is. The quality of the water in Lake Winnipeg is getting all of the attention right now.

Senator Mahovlich: Is that what your federation is concerned about?

Mr. Gaudry: Yes.

Senator Zimmer: Ms. Bugera, if I am not mistaken, you have talked about tourism and economic development in your ten-year program. Do you not have some very famous festival that occurs in St. Pierre-Jolys every year? It is a great marketing opportunity for you to advise our visiting Senators. They may come back, and you might be able to get your economic development to be spiked when they come back. Take 30 seconds to tell them about your world- famous festival.

Ms. Bugera: The famous festival we have in St. Pierre-Jolys is the national frog jumping contest. In 1970 — when Manitoba had its centennial celebrations, I believe — the Queen came to St. Pierre-Jolys. The council of the day wanted to think of something very special so she would not forget St. Pierre-Jolys. Frogs and French people, it was a natural fit. They created a competition where the frog gets a chance to jump three times, and the one that jumps the furthest wins a prize. To this day, that is still the focus of our festival on the long weekend of August, and the kids are really excited about it. Do not worry; if you do not want to bring your own frog, we also rent frogs. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Senator Zimmer: Absolutely. When you were talking economic development, we could not miss the opportunity.

The Chairman: That, unfortunately, conflicts with the Taber Cornfest in Alberta.

Senator Mercer: What is the prize? What does the frog get?

Ms. Bugera: It is the jockey — the person — that wins the prize.

Senator Mercer: Are these big frogs?

Ms. Bugera: They are not allowed to be touched. However, on the Saturday, it is for the kids, and it is really a lot of fun to see these kids handling the frogs. On the Sunday, it is VIPs, and Mr. Toews has already been one of our jockeys. It is politicians, VIPs and business people that day, and there is always a competition as to who will be dethroned.

The Chairman: If there are no further questions, it remains for me to thank you all so much. We definitely have learned. In addition to the frogs, you have given us a lot of good information and many insights. We are very happy that you could come. I know that you have concerns behind your words; we will be doing our very best to spread those words around.

We are drawing to the end of our hearings today. However, I wish to welcome Elaine Wilson, the principal of Arborgate School. She is here on behalf of herself and the school. We are looking forward to your remarks.

Elaine Wilson, Principal, Arborgate School — La Broquerie: Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I was asked by our school division if I would come and share a bit about what we have done at Arborgate School due to the issues of poverty and our families coming from isolated rural communities. I guess with no one on either side me, I will be answering all of the questions and I cannot even say pass.

The Chairman: Then you are on a roll.

Ms. Wilson: I am on a roll. You have some notes in front of you. I will just highlight some of the information, as I know you have been here a long day. From there, maybe you will have questions.

I phoned Luc Brémault, the principal of St. Joachim School, to ask him questions before I came. St. Joachim is the kindergarten to Grade 12 French school in the community. We do not have much connection, except that we share busing services, so from time to time we do need to work together to resolve busing behaviours that happen periodically among our students. We are trying very hard to have a close working relationship with the schools in the community; that is one of the goals this year for our school, but it is a work in progress.

Arborgate is a kindergarten to Grade 8 English school. I have been there for 12 years. When I arrived, the school had 109 students; since then we have grown to 285 students and we still growing. We presently have seven portables and two more are being built on site. We will probably request two more for next year. Of all of these portables, five will not be attached to the building, which of course gives us a whole new set of problems.

Ninety-four per cent of our children are bused because they come from remote rural communities: St. Labre, Woodridge, Sandilands, Marchand, and the town of La Broquerie. Thirty-three per cent of our student population for this year are EAL students, formerly known as ESL students. EAL students are students for whom English is an additional language, as opposed to ESL, where English is the second language. Twenty-five per cent of our students are identified as Aboriginal. We do have more Aboriginal students than that in our school, but we cannot record the data if the parents have not identified them as being Aboriginal, which is something we are working on.

Arborgate is a rich school community as we have children coming from several cultures. Just this past year we had three more Dutch families join our school, and we already had four Dutch families.

Forty-eight per cent of our kindergarten children enter school with very weak school readiness skills. They do not have book handling skills. There are few resources in the home, so they have not had storytime, learning rhymes and so on before they come to school. That has a huge impact on our programming at the school, because they are starting out so far behind and it takes us a long time to help them to get up to grade level.

A high percentage of our families are of very low socio-economic status. Many of our parents do not have post- secondary education, and there are also many who do not have education beyond Grade 9.

St. Joachim has a French-speaking daycare attached to their building. We do not have an English-speaking daycare in the community. Therefore, if our parents are working or would want to access daycare, they would have to travel to Steinbach, which of course would add to the cost, and distance also is an issue for them. It is difficult for parents to find babysitting arrangements because of the rural area.

We find that our parents are committed. They support the school. We have excellent working relationships with them. The problem is that many of them work long hours, so by the time they get home late at night it is difficult for them to get back to the school to take part in school programs, access the library or assist their children in the evenings.

Our school community has strong family values and the parents do want what is best for their children, but often they do not know how to access the resources that are available to them. Our children come from homes that have limited resources. The children do not have books in their homes that they can read for pleasure other than the books that they sign out from the school library.

After my first year at the school, I was aware that we needed to address these needs. Not only were the children not coming to school prepared, but also the tears, the crying, the parents' anxiety were huge when they were bringing their little ones to kindergarten. Many of these children had never been away. Steinbach was probably the furthest they had been from their home. The oldest child in each family had never been in the school building. The parents did not know each other, since because of distance they do not know their neighbours. These children were growing up in homes that were isolated, with few resources and with parents who were not able to network and just talk about the regular problems they have with their children.

We saw this as a huge problem, so the resource teacher and I started a program called Little Ones Reading at Arborgate. This brought the children and their parents in. It started with three parents and their children. Once a month, just to bring them in, we dressed up the resource teacher as Barney and several other story book characters, read a story to the children, and then the children were able to sign out three or four books that they could have at home for the month. We also encouraged the parents to sign out some books for themselves. At that time, we did not have a parent resource library, but we have been trying to build one up.

That program was so successful that the parents wanted to come more often and there were more parents attending, so the program started to grow. Each year, again using school personnel, we increased the program to add new components, so now the children were either going to the gym or doing a craft. Nutrition was a big part of the program, teaching the parents what a healthy snack and healthy lunches look like. We brought in our speech and language clinician. She would often work with the parents while we were doing activities with the children. Then we also increased the time to two days a week.

However, we found that our school just could not support this program. The numbers were getting too large, so our personnel could not keep up with their own regular duties. We had to look at something else to do.

Dr. Jan Roberts and I were in close communication at that time because we had Growing Minds going on in our school for eight weeks, and so we started talking about ways that we could get funding. We needed someone to teach the program, because we could not use the school personnel anymore. We also wanted to increase the program to offer it more often at Arborgate, as well as to offer it in Woodridge and Marchand, because those parents were not able to access the program. They had no way of getting there or, again, the cost of getting there was prohibitive. Dr. Roberts and I put together a presentation. She had all of the data and I had the stories about the families and the need and also how important literacy programming is before children come to school.

We went to the Rural Municipality of La Broquerie; we talked to the people in Marchand and Woodridge, and they gave us the community hall; we went to Seine River School Division. We got funding from all of these sectors to allow us to hire a part-time person, a parent in the program who moved from Winnipeg and really had a passion for preschool children, even though her own children were already in school full time.

That was the start of our program in our satellite communities. We are happy to say that we now have over 40 children in this preschool program that we call LOLA, Little Ones Learning at Arborgate. Many of the LOLA parents are now serving on our parent advisory council. They are sharing babysitting, and many of them also socialize with one another. It is heart-warming to see their lives change simply because of a preschool parent/child program. They go to community events together, they phone each other, they help out in the school wherever possible. For us it is a real success story.

From the children's point of view, we do not have tears anymore on the first day of school. In fact, we have another problem: when those children come into the school, they think they own the school. When they are there for LOLA, the way they walk down the hall, they know exactly where they are going, whether it is the library or the gym. One time they got to the gym and there was a Grade 8 class that was not quite finished, and one little boy said, "It is our turn; we have gym time now.'' He did not care whether it was Grade 8 kids in there or not; it was preschool gym time and he was going to let them know.

Another interesting part is that we offer the program Tuesday morning and Wednesday night at Arborgate. That allows the dads or working parents to come. We also have grandparents come with their children. It has been very beneficial to our parents in those ways as well.

Another issue we had at Arborgate School was the early bus ride for many of our children. Parents often had to leave for work early if they worked out of the home, so they were not there when their children were getting ready for school. They did not know whether their children had breakfast. Also, because of poverty in the home, there was not food for these children to eat when they got to school. We were already addressing the academic needs in literacy by having strong literacy programs and our preschool program, but we knew we needed to do something else as well.

Last year we applied for a grant through the Manitoba Council on Child Nutrition and through the Breakfast for Learning program, and we received $3,600. We also got that grant again this year. We have had several donations from local businesses, such as Hytek Feeds Co-op Ltd. in La Broquerie and businesses in Steinbach. We get donations from our parents and from our parent advisory council. Also, the staff love to wear jeans on Friday, and if they do they make a donation. Everyone makes a donation, though, just because they care about the kids. We do get a lot of money in as donations. It costs 85 cents a day for every child who eats a breakfast at school.

We trained our Grade 8 students in their leadership program to deliver the breakfast bins. The staff prepare the bins the night before, except for items such as milk or hot items, like porridge. The Grade 8 kids come to school, off the bus, show up at the canteen, pick up the bins, and away they go in pairs to each of the classrooms. This has been very good for the Grade 8s, because they also have to help the preschoolers so they are learning to show empathy towards the little ones. It is just wonderful to see them bending over to help a child spread cheese whiz on a bun or pour their juice. And the Grade 8 kids are feeling very good about themselves.

It has also made a big difference in behaviour. We have to remember that many of these students are on the bus for over an hour, but they have a purpose when they get to school. We do not have Grade 8 behaviour issues. They deliver that breakfast. It is quiet in the school, and everybody has had their breakfast within ten minutes. Once a month we have a special breakfast for the children as well.

Our third concern is that we would like to break the cycle of poverty for our students and their parents. Therefore, we are embarking on a new program next year to give our students a career and life skills. We have done a lot with career education already with our kindergarten to Grade 8 students. About eight of our Grade 6 students every year attend the Career Trek program, and they go for 20 Saturdays. They experience over 80 careers at three of the post- secondary institutions in Winnipeg. This program has really opened the eyes of our students and parents. There is a family day for the parents. They experience the same careers, one Saturday a month. There is also an information day, so that they know that distance and finances need not be a barrier to pursuing post-secondary education.

For next year we want to build on this. We want to work with the Career Trek personnel. We have developed a program for our students so that we can give them the life skills, the core ethical values, and the interpersonal skills that they will need in pursuing a job. We also want to allow them to experience some of the careers hands-on in the school and also on field trips. We want to work very closely with the parents and the community so that the parents also know what their children are studying at school, what resources we are giving them, how they can access those resources. We also work closely with Ste. Anne Collegiate with our transition program, so this will lead into the career development program.

Another thing we are doing is the family literacy night, to bring in parents again to promote literacy. We also have a strong character education program and Aboriginal programming for our children.

Senator Mercer: Thank you very much for being here. This is an extremely interesting program and it shows what some innovation can do; and it does not appear to have cost a lot of money for these innovations. Am I right in that?

Ms. Wilson: It does not need to, but then we are limited as to how much we can expand the programs. But we have tried to be creative in finding the funding to address the needs that we see in our school. With the preschool parent/ child program, if we had more funding, we would certainly love to be able to offer it more than one morning a week in Woodridge and Marchand, because we feel that we are just barely meeting the needs in those two rural communities. We feel that we are meeting the needs in Arborgate, but with more resources, we would be able to expand the program to offer it more often. Right now we are transporting resources back and forth from the school to those two areas, because we do not have enough resources to leave the resources in the community hall. Instead, we have to share resources. Yes, we can make it work on a limited budget, but it would be great to think that we could also expand.

Senator Mercer: You have 285 students. How many are in kindergarten?

Ms. Wilson: This year we have 28 in kindergarten and we have 30 registered for next year.

Senator Mercer: This was leading me to my daycare question. If you had an English child care centre attached to the school, or somehow associated with the school, it probably would not be big enough to accommodate everybody, but probably not everybody needs to be accommodated either.

Ms. Wilson: No, everybody would not need to be accommodated, because again distance prevents both parents working — often they have only one vehicle — so not all the children would be in daycare. A nursery program would be great. That was something else we started this year, one morning a week. Part of our problem is that we are so very crowded. For example, we offer our nursery program one morning a week. It is in the music room, so we are offering it when music is not happening in the school. We are trying to be creative but at the same time meet the needs of these children. We have ten children in the nursery school program.

Senator Mercer: I made an automatic linkage between your 48 per cent of children entering kindergarten with limited reading skills, little or no book handling skill and weak literacy skills with the high percentage of families with low economic status and very little post-secondary education for the parents. Is that the direct link that you make as well?

Ms. Wilson: I am sorry, is that what?

Senator Mercer: The high rate of children coming into kindergarten with poor book handling skills, do you link that directly to the educational level of the parents?

Ms. Wilson: Yes, partly. I am not sure that parents realize that literacy really starts the day the child is born and how important that is. At our school we give a book, Read to Your Bunny, to every family in the catchment area with a newborn, and I write a note in there encouraging the parents to start reading to their child the day that child is born. Our parents want to do the right thing, and I am not sure that they have realized why they may have struggled in school. The parents are becoming much more aware of the importance of literacy happening in the home even before a child comes to school.

Senator Mercer: I am impressed by the integration of the parents and the children in the program, and also the use of the library. Have you had difficulty obtaining supplies, including new books for the library?

Ms. Wilson: We have used some of the money we have received through grants, from South Eastman Health for example. We also receive donations. Every year we have purchased books, not only for children but also parenting resources, so that is how we built up our school library to accommodate the preschool program.

Senator Mercer: There is a program that involves some members of the RCMP across the country helping to supply books to school libraries. I apologize for not knowing the program's name, but I will try to it to you at some point.

In your breakfast program, 75 per cent of your students have breakfast every morning. That is an extremely high percentage. Are the other 25 per cent of students coming to school fed and not hungry?

Ms. Wilson: Either they have had breakfast at home or they do not like what is served that day. Now, when it is yogurt day, pancake day, or French toast, that percentage increases dramatically. How many children eat depends on what is on the menu, but the average is 75 per cent, and the other 25 per cent do not eat for different reasons.

Senator Mercer: Do you have difficulty with your breakfast program catering to ethnocultural needs or desires? We have a pretty mixed population in this country and not everybody eats the same as we English and French Canadians.

Ms. Wilson: We have not noticed that that is a problem. We might have a problem, for example, on the day we serve green eggs and ham for St. Patrick's Day, but we definitely would make some of the egg and cheese sandwiches without ham. So we are sensitive to the other religions that are in our school. We have not notices the cultures being a factor.

Senator Mercer: Thank you very much. Congratulations on a good program.

Senator Zimmer: Thank you for your presentation. Just a point of clarification, when you are talking about portables, are you talking about transportable rooms, like trailers?

Ms. Wilson: They are called high quality portables. They are actually gorgeous classrooms on the inside, but they are what we used to know as a hut.

Senator Zimmer: Are they joined and can they be moved?

Ms. Wilson: They can be moved. In fact, we are hoping we will have a new building, a new school for Grade 5 to Grade 12, in three to four years. That is in the works right now. We are waiting for the official announcement. I think then they would be moved. They can all be moved, even those that are attached.

Senator Zimmer: Would you then not use the portables anymore?

Ms. Wilson: We would then have school for kindergarten to Grade 4. Whether there would still need to be portables depends on the enrolment, or they could renovate the school and add on to accommodate the enrolment at that time.

Senator Zimmer: You mentioned that for 33 per cent of your students English is an additional language. I notice that a large percentage are German, Aboriginal, Dutch, Paraguayan and Asian. As they progress through to Grade 12, does that percentage change whereby English becomes the first language?

Ms. Wilson: Yes. We have noticed that at what grade level children arrive at our school determines how quickly they actually become proficient in their language. If we get the children in kindergarten, by about Grade 3 or Grade 4 they have got a pretty good handle on the English language. If the children come at say Grade 4 or Grade 5, it takes anywhere from three to five years before they are really feeling comfortable. That is because of the content of the materials they are learning. They are have to understand the vocabulary and the content. They have not grown up with the experiences that are referred to in the textbooks, so the support has to be there longer. This is the first year that we do have funding up to four years — in the past it was three years — and that will make a huge difference, because we were having to pull from other resources in our school in order to fund these students.

Senator Zimmer: They say it is phenomenal what children learn in the first six years of life.

Ms. Wilson: Absolutely.

Senator Zimmer: Then the earlier you get them, the better it is?

Ms. Wilson: They are sponges, yes.

Senator Zimmer: Exactly. You talked about the low percentage of parents with post-secondary education. You said that the parents work collaboratively with the children and that the program provides a network for the parents. Is there an opportunity for the parents also to increase their education while they are working with their children, or because of economic reasons are they unable to do that?

Ms. Wilson: There definitely is an opportunity for them to increase their education. I think having the Red River College in Steinbach will address that issue. A number of parents have had children in the Career Trek program, and that has opened their eyes as well. Several parents have told me that they wish they had had that opportunity; they wish they had known that it was possible to pursue post-secondary education. Some parents have gone back to school because of the Career Trek program. That is why we want to work closely with the parents and not give only to the children the information about believing in yourself, having your dreams and goals and the resources. We want to have parent meetings next year so that our parents get the same message, because it is never too late for them to improve their status.

Senator Zimmer: Thank you, Ms. Wilson. It is always nice to hear good stories and this is a good story. I wish you the best for the future for your school.

Senator Chaput: I want to follow up on Senator Zimmer's question. You said that 33 per cent of the student population is EAL, that is English as an additional language, which in my mind means English is their second language and those kids speak another language first; right? Could there be a link between that 33 per cent and the fact that 48 per cent of the kindergarten children have very weak literacy skills? Would there be a link in between the two?

Ms. Wilson: There is a link, but even prior to our immigrant families moving in, a high percentage of preschool children were coming to school not ready.

Senator Chaput: Where do the children go to school after Grade 8?

Ms. Wilson: The Grade 9 students go to Ste. Anne Collegiate.

Senator Chaput: Is that the English school in Ste. Anne?

Ms. Wilson: Yes.

Senator Chaput: How long have you had this special program?

Ms. Wilson: Do you mean the LOLA, the preschool?

Senator Chaput: Yes.

Ms. Wilson: About eight years, and it has evolved.

Senator Chaput: Do you know of other schools in Manitoba that do the same thing or have a similar program?

Ms. Wilson: Actually, because of the success of the LOLA program at Arborgate, the division has supported a program just like it in Richer, and our program coordinator and myself work closely with the personnel at Richer School. They started a program last year very similar to this. Now this year the Ste. Anne Elementary School is starting a program, so they have been over observing our program. So not only have we expanded to other satellite areas in the division, but we have also been able to expand to two other schools in the surrounding communities.

Senator Chaput: I would like to congratulate you and your colleagues. I had heard of your program but I did not know the extent of the good work that you do.

Ms. Wilson: Thank you. It has been rewarding and a very strong team effort.

Senator Mahovlich: Thank you, Ms. Wilson, and congratulations. That is a wonderful story. I think I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that you are allowed 25 students in the classroom. I think there were 40 kids in some of my classes when I was in school, and I felt I never got enough attention. How do you feel about that?

Ms. Wilson: I have to be careful. I feel that any number over 25 students is maintaining in a classroom. Our division is very supportive of low numbers in the early years, and they try hard to keep our early years classes, kindergarten to Grade 4, at around 21 or 22 students. When we get into the middle years classrooms it becomes difficult. This year we have classrooms with 28 and 30 students. It is not ideal. If we have enough staffing, the first thing we do, which we did this year, is split our Grade 7 and 8 class for at least the math and language arts, because we feel that those are two core subject areas that the students need.

You are right that once those numbers get up there it is not ideal. Also, it is not only numbers, it is the composition of our classrooms. For example, we have a class that has eight EAL students. We would have a level 3 funded student with an EA in the classroom. We could have as many as six or seven level 1 students in that classroom. They do not have funding but they need special programming.

We need to look not only at the numbers but at the class composition and what we are expecting our teachers to do. The burnout rate for our new teachers is about five years because of their huge responsibilities and the difficult workload. Even now, at this time of the year, there is huge stress because they are all wondering whether they have a job for next year, compounded with report card writing and the challenges that they face in their classrooms. I have not been in the classroom for a while, but I really give credit to the teachers because they are so caring and dedicated and they work such long hours because they could have six math programs and five reading groups all going on at one time. That is the nature of their job right now.

Senator Mahovlich: I think the government was going to put in a ceiling at 25 students or something like that.

Ms. Wilson: That would be great.

Senator Mahovlich: They would recommend it anyway. At what age, at what grade do the English students learn French?

Ms. Wilson: In our school we do exposure to French starting in kindergarten, and we have the basic French program right up to Grade 8. Even our young children are getting some French: our preschool teacher is teaching a little French song and she teaches them the numbers in French and English.

Senator Mahovlich: And the French students, English?

Ms. Wilson: We do not have French students in our school.

Senator Mahovlich: At St. Joachim?

Ms. Wilson: Yes, the students at St. Joachim learn English.

Senator Gustafson: When your students reach high school, you move them to another school. Is that right?

Ms. Wilson: Yes.

Senator Gustafson: Do they go to school half of the time and work half of the time? What do they work at?

Ms. Wilson: St. Joachim, the French school, offers the alternative program. The principal there told me that the students get jobs that they may be interested in, a career they may be interested in, or it could be just a job to help them support themselves while they are in school. It could be jobs that are available in the community. Ste. Anne also has an alternative program, but I am not sure of the percentage or the amount of time they are in school and the amount of time they are working as an apprentice.

Senator Gustafson: Maybe I should not say what I am about to say, but I take my hat off to the teachers because I think they have come a long way. When we went to school, if a student was a slow learner sometimes he was made the example for the whole school. That might have been an isolated condition. As I said, teachers have come a long way in dealing with students who have difficulty learning, and there are many of those students. I take my hat off to you.

Ms. Wilson: Thank you. You are so right. At our school we keep saying that we are there to make a difference in every child's life. We are teaching a whole child; we are not teaching Grade 5 math, we are teaching the child where they are at. In addition to those important skills, we need to give these children strong core ethical values. They need to know what it is to have someone who empathizes with them, who will show them respect. It is important that as adults we role model these values for the children.

To add to what you said, we presently have our Grade 7 and 8 class split for math and language arts. We also have a literacy program where we are pulling out our middle years students to give them extra literacy support. We agonized over whether to do that, because we did not want in any way to harm these children's self-esteem, but we knew that if we did not reach them in small groups or a small class then we would miss the boat. So we took the plunge. We were very careful about what teacher we chose and about how the homeroom teachers would present it to the students. It is a success story. I have been in the classroom a few times. I have also heard the Grade 7 and 8 boys ask, "Is our group meeting today?'', when a Grade 5 teacher pulls them out for literacy support. It has become so encouraging for them, because they are meeting success probably for one of the first times in their education lives, and at a late age.

I was in the small Grade 7 and 8 classroom, and it was a thrill to see students whom I had never seen share anything in class or ask a question before now working with the teacher and proud of their accomplishments. They were proud to show me some of the things they had done and they were asking great questions.

I think a key is how we approach it and the climate we have in the school. Our students know that what we stand for is that we all have strengths, and we all have weaknesses, and we work together to help each other. That is the message that all students need to hear, and they need to see that we also walk the talk.

The Chairman: I wish we could clone you and your teachers and send them across the country. This is one of our foundation issues, and good for you.

Ms. Wilson: Our teachers are amazing.

Senator Mercer: I want to follow up on Senator Mahovlich's question about class sizes. Earlier you told me that you have 28 kindergarten students this year and 30 registered for next year. What size would your kindergarten classes be?

Ms. Wilson: Our division allows us to split the kindergarten class at 26, so we will have two small kindergarten classes, all day every other day, because of transportation costs.

Senator Mercer: Does that mean the children come all day every other day, as opposed to coming half a day every day?

Ms. Wilson: Yes.

Senator Mercer: I like that. To follow up on the chair's comment about cloning you, we cannot clone you, but I would hope that the system has asked you to do a paper or to help write the curriculum for this type of program so that it can be copied in other schools, because you are a rare breed and we need to preserve that. One way we can do that is by designing a program using Arborgate as a model. Have they asked you to do that?

Ms. Wilson: No, they have not.

Senator Mercer: They should.

Ms. Wilson: I think it has to be the belief system. We are very careful when I am interviewing who we bring onto our team. They have to have a strong desire to make a difference in children's lives. They have to have the belief system that every child can succeed. A big part of it is the philosophy of the team we are working with, and I do not think that it is something that you can make someone do. We have noticed that some who may have been there before the climate totally changed certainly sense it and know that they need to do business differently if they are going to survive in the school as well.

Senator Mercer: That is good. Thank you.

Senator Chaput: I am not sure how to ask this question, but here it goes. We heard from a previous witness about the fact that in the region of Ste. Anne, I believe, there are more and more children from broken homes being placed into families. I guess we can call them foster parents, and many of those families would be taking in children because they have low income, sometimes, and they want to raise the family income also. What does that do to a school? Does having those children from broken families placed into low-income families add additional work for the teachers? How do you, and they, cope with that?

Ms. Wilson: In our school we actually have a low percentage of foster children. Presently we have 10 out of 285 students. We received two more in the last two weeks. It is the baggage that these children come with that has an effect on the school, and we really have to make sure that we have all of our ducks in order before day one, because we feel strongly that on their first day in the school they need to know that they will be set up for success. We have to have the supports in place and the programming in place before they even start day one.

We are very fortunate with the foster families we have in our area. I cannot think of one that is not in it for the right reason. I did work in Ste. Anne for six years. I can honestly say it is a different picture in Ste. Anne.

Senator Chaput: Your school is kindergarten to Grade 8, and then the children are transferred to the other school in Ste. Anne.

Ms. Wilson: Yes, to the high school for Grade 9.

Senator Chaput: Then it could be an entirely different climate for those kids from your school to the other school.

Ms. Wilson: It is, and it has been, but the principal from Ste. Anne Collegiate and I have been working together to make the transition smooth for our students. She has also worked extremely hard to try to change the climate in the high school. When our students go there, they do very well. They seem to take the good academic study skills and the leadership skills, and the majority just fly. Of course, there will always be those whom we feel we did not quite get to where we would have liked them to be before they left our school. Some of the issues we see they take with them. However, the majority do very well. Our transition program starts day one of Grade 8; we are talking high school with these kids right from the first day, telling them this is what we are getting you ready for. We have meetings with the schools. The teachers have four meetings a year to discuss curriculum and programming.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Wilson. This is a huge issue in our country and, as I think I have said before, Manitoba has been one of the leading provinces in how they tackle learning and literacy. It is good to see that it is still going along well, and we thank you and all of those with whom you work.

Ms. Wilson: Thank you very much for this opportunity.

The Chairman: Well, colleagues, I hate to say it but it appears that our day is over as far as this meeting is concerned. It has truly been a wonderful day and we have had extraordinary people speaking to us about some of the very difficult issues that we have been studying. We thank all of you who have helped us and all of you who have listened. I thank the media which has stayed loyal here for quite some time.

The committee adjourned.

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