Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and Constitutional Affairs
Issue 18 - Evidence, December 6, 2006 (Morning meeting)
OTTAWA, Wednesday, December 6, 2006
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, to which was referred Bill S-213, to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals); and Bill S-1001, respecting Scouts Canada, met this day at 10:02 a.m. to give clause-by-clause consideration to the bills.
Senator Donald H. Oliver (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I call this session of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs to order. We have before us clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-213, to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals). Honourable senators, is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 1 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 2 carry?
Senator Bryden: Are we talking about clause 2 of the bill? Clause 2 is the provision for coming into force.
The Chairman: Yes, it is.
Senator Bryden: I believe there was a consensus that clause 2 is not necessary and that it would be deleted.
The Chairman: Shall clause 2 carry?
Senator Bryden: No.
The Chairman: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the bill carry as amended by the deletion?
Senator Bryden: With that deletion, agreed.
The Chairman: It is agreed that the bill shall carry with the deletion amendment?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Does the committee wish to discuss appending observations to report?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, is it agreed that the bill be reported with amendment and without observations?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Honourable senators, we now have before us clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-1001, respecting Scouts Canada. Is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the preamble stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 1 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 2 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 3 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 4 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 5 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 6 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 7 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 8 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 9 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 10 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 11 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 12 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 13 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 14 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the preamble carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall the bill carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Does the committee wish to discuss the possibility of appending observations to this report?
Senator Milne: I would like to append a sentence or two stating that we are concerned about the closed circle that Scouts eh! presented to us, and how ordinary members can break through and become voting members. I would agree to have the Library of Parliament draft a sentence or two on that.
Senator Di Nino: Do you mean as an observation?
Senator Milne: Yes.
Senator Di Nino: I have no problem with that. You will have noticed that you are not receiving a lot of email in support of the bill, and that is because I told them not to send any.
Senator Milne: We have passed the bill.
Senator Bryden: Is there another way to make that point? It is getting close to Christmas and the rumour mill is running rampant on the Hill. If making an observation will delay the opportunity to report the bill in the Senate, it might be better to deal with this matter at third reading debate.
Senator Di Nino: I would appreciate if it were done in debate. I have been talking to Mr. Claxton about this issue for two or three years. As I said in committee, he and a few others do not agree. The fact remains that I was a national vice-president when the process of discussions to change the bylaw began in 1995. There were years of discussions. When it was finally brought up, when I was no longer there, it was rejected by the members. They set up a committee that consulted widely across the country and came up with a new bylaw, which then was amended. The opposition was led by Glenn Armstrong, who is now Chief Commissioner of Scouts Canada.
I think democracy exists, although they feel it does not. I think it would hurt Scouts to go into a debate on that.
Senator Stratton: I believe this issue should be dealt with in debate rather than as an attachment to the bill. We are entering into an area with which I do not feel comfortable. This is infighting and nothing to do with the bill.
Senator Jaffer: I will not repeat what has been said. Many people have spoken to me about this bill, especially young women who have benefited, but they are discouraged that we do not have sufficient time. We have only heard half the story. Therefore, it would be better to deal with this matter in debate.
Senator Milne: I will subside.
Senator Joyal: I apologize for being late.
Senator Milne: We have passed the report.
Senator Joyal: I understand that.
When we heard from the witnesses earlier this week, we did not receive an answer with regard to clause 3, which states:
The Corporation has the capacity of a natural person and, subject to this Act, all the powers, rights and privileges of a natural person.
When that clause was raised, one senator mentioned that therefore the corporation has the right to vote.
We did not ask the legal adviser of the corporation about that point of view. I would like to get an answer, for third reading debate, as to why they want to have that particular provision. It seems odd to me that the corporation has the capacity of a natural person.
Senator Stratton: We passed the bill.
Senator Di Nino: Senator Joyal is asking if I would deal with that question at third reading debate of the bill.
Senator Joyal: Yes, we have passed the bill, but I would like to have this explained at third reading.
The Chairman: Senator Di Nino has undertaken to do that.
Senator Joyal: I will put the issue to you. As the witnesses said, Part III of the Corporations Act applies. Therefore, they have all the powers in Part III of the Corporations Act. However, the Corporations Act does not refer to the rights of a corporation on the same basis as a natural person.
Senator Di Nino: I will ask you to give me the precise question and I will provide an answer.
Senator Joyal: I would appreciate that.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, is it agreed that this bill be reported without amendment and without observations?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, there is no further business before the meeting at this time, but we will be meeting later today on other matters.
The committee continued in camera.