Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of November 13, 2007
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 13, 2007
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 8 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate of Canada, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Gaëtane Lemay, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I am Gaëtane Lemay, one of the two co-clerks of this committee. In this capacity, it is my duty today to preside over the election of a chair of this committee. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Tkachuk: I move the nomination of Senator Kenny.
Ms. Lemay: Are there any other nominations?
It is moved by Senator Tkachuk that Senator Kenny do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Lemay: I declare the motion carried.
Senator Kenny, please take the chair.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Senator Tkachuk.
Everyone has a copy of the agenda and the next item is the election of the deputy chair. It may not be customary, but I would like to move Senator Tkachuk for that position.
Are there any other nominations?
Seeing none, I declare Senator Tkachuk elected.
Please join us up here, Senator Tkachuk.
Senator Tkachuk: It is nice to win the second time around.
The Chair: It is that experience that makes the difference.
Senator Tkachuk: It really goes to prove that if you keep running you will succeed.
The Chair: The next item is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure is composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and another member to be designated after the usual consultation; and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
The purpose of this, if I understand it, Ms. Lemay, is to establish the subcommittee.
Ms. Lemay: Yes senator, and to identify two of the three members, the chair, and the deputy chair.
The Chair: Identify Senator Tkachuk and myself, and a third member to be determined after the usual consultation.
Senator Nancy Ruth: It is my understanding that all committees make the final decision. Does this subcommittee link back to the Committee of the Whole? The committees make the decisions.
The Chair: I would send a report to the committee.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Is there some way to revise the decisions of the subcommittee, or are you saying these three members are the bosses and that is it?
The Chair: You have asked two questions. The first question is in the motion that establishes the subcommittee and names two members of that subcommittee. After the usual consultations, I would bring back a motion to the committee and it could be adopted, defeated or varied. Does that answer your question, Senator Nancy Ruth?
Senator Nancy Ruth: Yes, but the second paragraph of number 3 of the agenda gives you more power than what you have just stated, at least the way I read it. That is my concern. It reads, ``That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee . . . .''
The Clerk: The main committee can always overrule the subcommittee.
The Chair: Yes, that is correct. The full committee delegates powers to the steering committee and at any time the full committee can review, rescind or deal with decisions made by the steering committee.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Yes, and that includes the list of witnesses.
The Chair: On anything.
Senator Nolin: It is quite standard.
Senator Nancy Ruth: It is quite standard that the power remains with the committee, though.
Senator Nolin: It is. That is not what they are seeking.
The Chair: No one is disputing that.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Okay, let us try it.
Senator Nolin: It is agenda, witnesses, and schedule; that is it.
Senator Nancy Ruth: That is the key. The witness list is the key.
Senator Nolin: I am sure, chair, if any member of the committee has a specific request as to a witness, that you will entertain with great interest that recommendation, and of non-members, of course.
The Chair: We have never failed to look at anyone's proposals.
Are there any other comments? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Who moved it, please? Thank you. It was moved by Senator Moore.
Those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
I need a motion to print committee's proceedings.
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Banks moved that the committee print its proceedings, and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Are there any comments? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Those abstaining? The motion is carried.
I need a motion to authorize the holding of meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.
Senator Day: Is it standard as well?
The Chair: Yes, it is.
Senator Day: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Day that pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition are present.
Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
I turn now to the financial report. Rule 104, honourable senators, is the report on the spending of the committee in the last session of Parliament. Could I have someone move that motion, please?
Senator Moore: I so move.
The Chair: It was moved by Senator Moore that the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104.
Do I need another motion to table it?
Senator Tkachuk: Has this money been spent?
The Chair: Yes, Senator Tkachuk it is a report to the chamber on the previous expenses.
Do I need a motion?
The Clerk: No, it is not necessary.
The Chair: I need a motion for research staff. The committee wishes to ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee; that the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it; that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and that the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Banks so moved.
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? The motion is carried.
I now turn to the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act and section 7, Chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules the authority to commit funds is conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee. Pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and section 8, Chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee is conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee.
Senator Mitchell so moved.
Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
I will now turn to travel. I need a senator to move that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chair: Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
I need a senator to move the motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and consider any member of the committee to be on official business if that member is (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Could I have a mover, please?
Senator Tkachuk: On the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, the chair or deputy chair would sign-off on the Conservative members at that time. Can you or I sign-off on any committee member who asks?
The Chair: In the past, either one has signed off.
Senator Tkachuk: That is fine.
Senator Banks: This does not say the individuals; it says the subcommittee in its entirety.
The Chair: In other words, all three members of the subcommittee need to be consulted.
Senator Tkachuk: That is fine.
The Chair: Would you like to move it?
Senator Tkachuk: I will move it.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Tkachuk that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to —
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: I will now turn to number 11, travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Banks: We must put this to a vote.
The Chair: I am sorry. Excuse me. We are not dispensing with votes; I understand.
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: All those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Tkachuk that pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair may be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Those in favour?
Senator Day: What does the second part mean?
The Chair: The normal procedure is that one person is enough from any given organization. Occasionally there are unusual circumstances where another person might come for some reason, and this would authorize the cost of the second person's travelling and living expenses.
Senator Day: Thank you.
The Chair: Those in favour of the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
I will turn to number 12 of our agenda: electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Would a senator please move a motion that the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearing; and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
So moved by Senator Mitchell.
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
Number 13 on our agenda is a motion to create a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. This committee has had a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs in the past. The effect of this motion would be to name five members of the subcommittee. It would be up to those five members to hold a separate meeting, very similar in nature to this meeting, where they would elect a chair and organize themselves along the same format that we have followed.
Who here has an interest in serving on the subcommittee? I see Senator Day.
Senator Day: Senator Nancy Ruth, are you interested?
Senator Nancy Ruth: No, not particularly.
Senator Tkachuk: Senator Meighen, I am sure.
The Chair: Senator Meighen.
An. Hon. Senator: And Senator Atkins.
Senator Banks: And the vice-chair should be.
Senator Tkachuk: And the chair.
The Chair: I have in the past. How many do we have so far? Senator Atkins is not on the committee at the moment.
Ms. Lemay: Senator Mitchell is replacing Senator Atkins.
The Chair: I am sure, when Senator Atkins is well, he will come to the meetings.
Senator Banks: So you have the chair and the deputy chair.
The Chair: We do not have the deputy chair yet.
Senator Tkachuk: There should be at least two.
Senator Nancy Ruth: How often does the committee meet?
The Chair: The committee meets on Wednesday at lunchtime perhaps twice a month.
Is that fair, Senator Day?
Senator Day: It depends on the subject matter.
The Chair: The committee might not have a meeting for two months, but then it might meet more frequently.
Senator Day: It is good stuff.
The Chair: It really is. It is important in terms of the Senate.
Senator Day: It is the best subcommittee in the place. We are studying post-traumatic stress, one of our major areas of concern.
The Chair: Senator Nancy Ruth.
Senator Banks: Does that make five members?
The Chair: Yes, that is five.
Ms. Lemay: I count only four.
The Chair: We need another Liberal. Senator Banks will be the fifth member.
Senator Tkachuk moves that the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be established to study matters relating to veterans affairs which may be referred to it from time to time by the committee; that the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs consist of five members, three of whom shall constitute a quorum; that the initial membership be as follows: the Honourable Senators Day, Meighen, Kenny, Nancy Ruth, and Banks; that the subcommittee be authorized to send for persons, papers and records, whenever required, and to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it.
Those in favour of the motion?
Senator Moore: It carries on, does it not?
The Chair: Yes, Senator Moore, I am sorry. It continues to say that subject to the approval of the Senate, the committee's power to permit coverage by electronic media of its meetings be conferred on the subcommittee; that the committee's authority pursuant to section 8 of the Senators' Attendance Policy be conferred on the subcommittee; that, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, and section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, the committee's authority to commit funds be conferred on the subcommittee; and that, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, the committee's authority for certifying accounts payable be conferred on the subcommittee.
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Tkachuk has moved it. Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Abstaining? The motion is carried.
Senator Day: For the record, it would be of interest and important for us to mention that there are three senators who are very interested in the work of this subcommittee — namely, Senators Atkins, Downe and Dallaire — none of whom is a member of the main committee and, therefore, cannot be a member of this subcommittee.
The Chair: They can come to the meetings; they can participate.
Senator Day: They can. I think it is important to point that out.
The Chair: We can pause and move in camera for the remainder of the committee. Could I have a motion to move in camera?
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chair: It was moved by Senator Banks. All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
The committee continued in camera.