Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 8 - Evidence - Meeting of April 28, 2008
OTTAWA, Monday, April 28, 2008
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 4:11 p.m. to examine and report on the national security policy of Canada.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: With senators' permission, I ask for a motion to go in camera to deal with a number of motions. As Senator Banks mentioned earlier, we also have other motions to deal with in public. I ask to revert to in camera when we deal with the report.
Senator Tkachuk: Are we studying future business of the committee when we are in camera?
The Chair: Yes, some is future business and some relates to in camera.
Senator Tkachuk: Future business is usually in camera. That is what we are doing. You mentioned motions.
The Chair: The adoption of the budget, the filing of exhibits, the payment of expenses and such are in public. The other information relates to the transcription portion of a letter regarding a staff person and discussions regarding budgets before we pass them.
Senator Banks: You want a motion now to go in camera, and I so move.
The Chair: Those in favour? Opposed?
Carried.
The committee continued in camera.
The committee resumed in public.
The Chair: Colleagues, the meeting is now in public. The first item is the budget of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, SCONSAD, for legislation.
Senator Tkachuk: I want to comment on a motion that was passed before we went public.
The Chair: Senator Tkachuk, you are out of order.
Senator Tkachuk: I do so to make the public aware of what has taken place. Do we need a motion for you to speak on behalf of the whole committee? That is exactly what you did.
The Chair: Senator Tkachuk, we will put you down under Other Business.
Senator Tkachuk: — when you know that is not the case.
The Chair: You are item 9, Senator Tkachuk, and you are out of order.
Senator Tkachuk: I want to ensure that comment is public. I may be out of order but that whole motion was out of order as far as I am concerned. That was not part of the agenda. It is not on the agenda, therefore, it is out of order.
The Chair: It came up under Other Business, Senator Tkachuk.
Senator Tkachuk: I am saying my piece now so the public is aware of it.
The Chair: You are out of order and you will have your opportunity in due course.
Senator Tkachuk: I am not out of order. You were out of order to move it. I wanted to say it in public. I wanted to say exactly what happened. Therefore, I write a letter to the editor and now the Liberal Party of Canada is saying I cannot write that letter because only the chair can speak on behalf of the committee.
The Chair: Senator Tkachuk, you are out of order.
Senator Banks: Point of order. Do I understand correctly that at the conclusion of the budget items, Senator Tkachuk will be given the floor to discuss the issue?
The Chair: He is item 9, under Other Business. That is correct.
An Hon. Senator: Why is he interrupting then?
The Chair: I have no idea. We are on the motion to adopt the SCONSAD budget.
Senator Tkachuk: I am interrupting for only one reason.
The Chair: You are still out of order, Senator Tkachuk. Senator Day has the floor.
Senator Day: I move that:
The legislation budget application for the committee for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009, be approved for submission to the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration.
That is in the full amount of $8,250.
The Chair: Comments, please.
Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Carried unanimously.
Item 2 is the question of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs budget.
Senator Day: I move that:
The following budget application for the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009 be approved for submission to the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration.
This includes both special activities and other activities, totalling $51,851.
The Chair: Discussion? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Those opposed? Those abstaining? Motion carried unanimously.
Did we pass the motion on exhibits?
The Clerk: Yes.
The Chair: Item 4: There is a motion. Please proceed, Senator Banks.
Senator Banks: While we are on budgets, and before we go to Senator Tkachuk's point, which he wants to make in public, there are travel allocations that the chair has undertaken on behalf of the committee: two that have happened under the promotion of reports before we had a chance to deal with the approval of the budgets and one that is upcoming.
I want to make a motion, Mr. chair, for those three items. May I put them together?
The Chair: You may.
Senator Banks: The first is:
That the clerk of the committee be authorized to certify as payable the account for expenses incurred by the chair for a trip to Montreal on April 17 and 18, 2008, for the purpose of speaking at a graduation dinner for the RCMP's Leadership in Counter-terrorism course, and that the cost be applied to the ``Promotion of reports, meetings and other matters related to committee business'' activity.
I think that amount is $320.03.
The second is:
That the clerk of the committee be authorized to certify as payable the account for expenses incurred by the chair for a trip to Toronto for the purpose of meeting with reporters from The Toronto Star and the National Post in order to promote work of the committee, and that the cost be applied to ``Promotion of reports, meetings and other matters related to committee business'' activity.
That is in the amount of $1,748.72. Those are the two trips that have passed.
Looking forward, the third motion is:
That the committee authorize the chair to travel on its behalf to Vancouver and Calgary, on a date to be determined later, to meet with representatives of the Vancouver Sun, the Vancouver Province, the Calgary Sun, the Calgary Herald and to meet with officers at CFF Esquimalt and with representatives from University of Calgary's Centre for Military and Strategic Studies and other individuals interested in the committee's work as available; that the chair be considered on ``official business'' for the purpose of the Senators Attendance Policy; and that the cost of the expenses incurred be applied to the ``Promotion of reports, meetings and other matters related to committee business'' activity.
There is a separate line item in our budget having to do with promotion of reports, meetings and other matters related to the committee business activity, which we have undertaken in the past and would always be approved on an individual basis as they come up.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Most of you know this kind of item is being looked at by the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration. I would like to set this item aside until the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has made a decision about it. Then, we can look at it in light of whatever decision the Internal Economy Committee makes.
The Chair: The Internal Economy Committee approved this line, and so did the full Senate.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Where was I? What was it exactly they and the Senate approved?
The Chair: They approved in the release of funds to us a line item in the budget that provides for this matter.
Senator Nancy Ruth: For past travel?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Is that with both the chair and deputy chair signing on all receipts and bills? As I understand it, that is still before the Internal Economy Committee.
The Chair: No.
Senator Nancy Ruth: It has not been passed, therefore?
The Chair: There was a partial release of our budget, which included funds for this travel.
Senator Banks: Senator Nancy Ruth is talking about a proposal from the Internal Economy Committee that has not yet been dealt with.
Senator Nancy Ruth: That is right.
Senator Banks: Before that has been dealt with, the Internal Economy Committee approved the budget of this committee with a line item, as I quoted.
Senator Nancy Ruth: I understand that. I think when the Internal Economy Committee approved this budget they thought it would pass more quickly than it did. It went to both caucuses and has not gone back to the Internal Economy Committee yet. I would still like to stay it until the Internal Economy Committee has made a decision one way or the other, and then look at it again.
Senator Tkachuk: Was the item, ``Promotion of reports, meetings and other matters related to committee business'' passed by the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration and the Senate?
Shaila Anwar, Co-clerk of the Committee: There was a partial release of funds that included a line item for promotion of reports in the amount of $15,000. It included the Washington trip, $15,000 for promotion of reports, funds for —
Senator Tkachuk: And Afghanistan.
Ms. Anwar: That was in the last fiscal year. This is for this year, funds until the month of June and for contracts. I do not know the date that the release came out, but it was before the March break.
Senator Banks: That approval contemplates these expenditures specifically.
Ms. Anwar: Yes, they are mentioned by name.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Including the third one?
Ms. Anwar: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: Can we have a breakdown of the expenses on the report for these motions?
Ms. Anwar: I do not have that. I can give you ballpark figures.
Senator Tkachuk: I am only asking. What was the third one? We do not have a budget for that.
The Chair: Ballpark, a trip to Vancouver is —
Senator Tkachuk: It is hard to pass a motion when you do not know what it is going to cost.
Senator Day: Not if you trust the chair.
Senator Tkachuk: Can the deputy chair also travel and then submit it to this travel budget?
Senator Day: Bring it on.
The Chair: Any committee member can.
Senator Tkachuk: Without going to the committee ahead of time and saying —
The Chair: You take your chances afterwards. The committee may or may not approve it if it happens afterwards.
Senator Tkachuk: I think you have a better chance of having it approved than I would.
The Chair: That is not so.
Senator Banks: I want to be corrected if I am wrong, but the concept of including in committee budgets a separate line item for the promotion of committee reports is relatively new. This committee was the first committee to introduce it, and other committees now include that line item. When this committee introduced the item, it was understood that, in each case, the committee, usually as a whole, would be asked retroactively to approve reasonable expenses that the chair has undertaken in respect of meeting that obligation, and secondly, on occasion such as in item 3, when it is contemplated in the relatively near future, that preauthorization for the idea of the trip be made.
The committee would deal with those things, as we have, ever since we introduced that item in the budget. I think that is correct. I want to be corrected if I am wrong.
The Chair: That is correct. If we have the figures for the last two trips, I am content to wait until next week and bring figures in for the Vancouver-Calgary trip. It is no problem.
Senator Banks: Do you want me to separate the motion out, then?
The Chair: If there is concern on the committee about the cost of a trip to Vancouver, it is easy to separate out the two. I will bring the numbers back next week. Is that your wish, Senator Tkachuk?
Senator Nancy Ruth: I would like that.
Senator Tkachuk: I was asking for a breakdown. That is all I was asking, hotel and travel. You receive a per diem amount.
Senator Mitchell: Can Senator Tkachuk explain why he needs that breakdown?
Senator Tkachuk: We all do that when we file for expenses.
Senator Mitchell: Why do you not wait for the expense report and review that? This request is, I believe, on the verge, if not explicitly deliberate, distraction from what this committee should be doing. We are adults here, Senator Tkachuk. The chair is a highly distinguished senator who has done remarkable work and does not need to have this kind of stuff picked at all the time. We should talk about issues that are important at a substantive level for this committee. You go over and over budget matters all the time, and it delays and distracts from what we should do. It is clear to me that you have another agenda to undermine and undercut what this committee does.
Senator Tkachuk: Normally, in most committees, we also know exactly what will be on the agenda before the meeting. We have a copy of the motions that will be presented a few days or a day before the committee. I have not seen any of these motions. Perhaps all of you have. Obviously, you are well prepared. This is the first time I have seen them. That may be the way you do business, but that is not the way I do business.
Senator Mitchell: That is not true. In the last budget debate we had, we did not see the motions. For the record, we did not see the motions you brought up about the budget and cutting the budget by 25 per cent, 50 per cent and 60 per cent. We did not see any motions about that before the meeting. Do not start to skin that.
Senator Tkachuk: I can make any motions I want.
Senator Mitchell: So can we. That is all we are doing. You cannot have it both ways.
Senator Tkachuk: I can make motions. When we discuss a full budget, any member of this committee can make amendments to that budget, and that is exactly what I did.
Senator Banks: In the interests of equanimity, I will amend my motion to deal only with the first two items, that is to say, a trip by the chair to Montreal to address the RCMP leadership for $320.03 and a trip to Toronto for The Toronto Star and the National Post and to promote the work of the committee for $1,748.72, and I will make a separate motion on the third item. Can we deal with the motion as amended, which takes care of a total of $2,068.75 for past travel by the chair in promotion of reports and meetings and other matters related to committee business?
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Banks. Any comments? Question. Those in favour?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed.
Some Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: Carried.
Senator Banks: Can I propose that the committee authorize you to travel to Vancouver and Calgary and that you be considered on official business? This motion is in order that you can make the travel arrangements for the purpose of the Senators Attendance Policy, on the understanding that a week from today you will present a pro forma budget for that travel.
The Chair: Discussion.
Senator Moore: Question.
The Chair: Those in favour?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed?
Senator Tkachuk: No.
The Chair: Carried.
Senator Tkachuk, you have the floor, sir.
Senator Tkachuk: For what?
The Chair: You wanted the floor earlier. We are now at Other Business.
Senator Tkachuk: I already said what I wanted to say. Let us go on to study of the report.
Senator Banks: You can say it uninterrupted now so it will be on the record. I doubt that what you wanted to say was clearly on the record.
Senator Tkachuk: I have already said it. I have nothing more to say.
The Chair: Is there any other Other Business?
Senator Day: I want the record to reflect the fact that the motion I brought with respect to the chair speaking on behalf of the committee is something I wrote while we were sitting here in the discussion, as opposed to the comment that is reflected in the minutes from Senator Tkachuk that that particular motion was prepared beforehand.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Day.
Colleagues, it has taken a while, but can we now please go back in camera?
Senator Banks: So moved.
The Chair: Those in favour?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Carried.
The committee continued in camera.