Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 11 - Evidence - Meeting of April 29, 2008
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:34 a.m. to study the estimates laid before Parliament for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this meeting of the Senate Committee on National Finance. My name is Joseph Day and I represent the Province of New Brunswick in the Senate. I am the chair of this committee.
[English]
The committee's field of interest is government spending and operations, including reviewing the activities of officers of Parliament and those various individuals, groups and organizations that help parliamentarians to hold the government to account. We do this through the estimates of expenditures and funds made available to officers of Parliament to perform their functions through budget implementation acts and other matters referred to this committee by the Senate.
The federal government has long been involved in infrastructure activities through its participation in the building of national physical assets, such as canals, railways, telegraphic lines and national highway systems. Today, as part of our committee's review of the estimates for 2008-09, we are examining federal expenditures on infrastructure and related activities, including the participation of federal regional development agencies in the delivery of infrastructure funding and other funding in the regions.
It is my pleasure to welcome our witnesses from the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, Sherril Minns, Vice-President of Finance and Corporate Services; Denise Frenette, Director General, Finance; and Robert Smith, Director General, Community Development.
Sherril Minns, Vice-President of Finance and Corporate Services, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency: Good morning, honourable senators. I appreciate having an opportunity to speak with you this morning about references to the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency in the Government of Canada's Main Estimates, especially as they relate to the delivery of the Infrastructure Canada programming in Atlantic Canada.
On March 4, 2008, this committee examined the estimates laid before Parliament for fiscal year ending March 31, 2009. Officials of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat presented a deck entitled "Main Estimates 2008-09, Presentation to the Senate Committee on National Finance." My understanding, based on a review of the transcript from that meeting, is that questions were raised during your discussion relating to slide 13 of that presentation. I have provided a copy of that slide for each of you.
Your discussion on March 4 focused on the impact of accounting for federal infrastructure spending dollars under the Office of Infrastructure of Canada rather than under the books of the regional development agencies — in my situation, that of ACOA.
I have a few comments this morning that I hope will clarify ACOA's financial reporting.
Allow me to begin by explaining the financial information that was presented on slide 13 of the presentation on March 4. The Main Estimates figure for 2007-08 indicated a reference level of $375 million for the ACOA portfolio. The 2008-09 reference level stands at $336.9 million, which reflects a decrease of $38.1 million.
While Infrastructure Canada funding explains part of this decrease in reference levels, it actually accounts for only $4 million. This reflects a decrease in infrastructure funding from $5 million in 2007-08 to $1 million in 2008-09.
In actual fact, the bulk of the decrease in ACOA's reference level is attributable to the Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative. This is a one-time initiative with a federal contribution of $55 million. The funding requirement for this initiative was $40 million less in 2008-09 because projects that could be considered for funding under the initiative have not been coming forward as quickly as had been anticipated.
The impact of the combined decreases in infrastructure funding and the Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative on ACOA's reference levels totals $44 million. This, however, is partially offset by increases in other programs, such as $2.6 million for the Canada business service centres and $3 million for the Atlantic Innovation Fund.
If I might add a few additional comments on the matter of infrastructure funding in Atlantic Canada, I would like to explain that when the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund program was introduced in 2003, the Government of Canada decided that Infrastructure Canada would continue to use federal delivery partners such as ACOA. However, funds for this program would be accounted for in the books of Infrastructure Canada rather than in the federal delivery partners. The newly-announced Community Components of the Building Canada Fund will follow this same delivery and accounting approach.
While such changes do impact ACOA's reference levels, they do not reflect a decrease in infrastructure dollars allocated to Atlantic Canada nor the agency's economic development activities within the region.
You will note that I have provided you with a second handout this morning. This is a table illustrating the amount of spending in Atlantic Canada for infrastructure programs from 2001-02 to 2007-08. The table identifies the amounts accounted for under ACOA's reference levels and those under Infrastructure Canada. As you can see, funding for infrastructure programming in Atlantic Canada has continuously increased year over year since 2001-02.
I trust that this explanation has answered questions that you may have had with respect to ACOA's reference levels. I thank you for your time and attention this morning, senators, and would be pleased to receive your questions or to elaborate on any of the financial matters I have presented for your consideration.
The Chair: Using the last schedule that you gave us in relation to Infrastructure Canada and ACOA, in your remarks you indicated that the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund program was introduced in 2003 and that that expenditure was shown on the books as Infrastructure Canada but delivered by ACOA, is that correct?
Ms. Minns: That is correct.
The Chair: Does that schedule that you have just given us reflect that, or does it reflect more than that?
Ms. Minns: It reflects that, plus additional funding that has also flowed to the Atlantic region through Infrastructure Canada. You will see that commencing in 2003-04, Infrastructure Canada funding starts to kick in the amount of $10 million and continues to increase through to 2007-08.
The Chair: Slide13 to which you referred us is inclusive of both infrastructure and actual ACOA money; therefore, showing us both combined. Is that correct?
Ms. Minns: Slide13, from the Treasury Board presentation to you, indicates the funding that was available through ACOA reference levels only. These reference levels refer to 2007-08 and 2008-09. The $375 million spent by ACOA in 2007-08 would include the $9.347 million that was in our reference levels, but this slide that was presented to you by Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat does not include the Infrastructure Canada funding.
The Chair: I understand that now.
Senator Murray: It is not there?
Ms. Minns: It is not on slide 13, no. It only shows the ACOA reference levels there and not what was in Infrastructure Canada reference levels.
Senator Murray: On the slide, I see "Transport" with $2 billion. Under that it says, "Office of Infrastructure/Old Port of Montreal Corporation Inc." What is the Office of Infrastructure? Does that relate to the Old Port of Montreal?
Ms. Minns: Excuse me. Under Transport Canada, you are absolutely correct. I apologize. I was not focused on that side of the slide. However, that is the infrastructure money there under Transport Canada, Office of Infrastructure. I apologize and appreciate the correction.
Senator Murray: It is hard to tell. There is $2 billion for industrial, regional and scientific-technological programs for Transport Canada. Within that $2 billion, it appears that Infrastructure Canada is included.
Ms. Minns: Yes, I apologize; I was incorrect.
Senator Murray: That is fine. They are included there.
Ms. Minns: Yes, they are.
Senator Murray: What is the number we are looking at for 2007-08? If it is $2 billion, then that $2 billion would include $313 million and change for Infrastructure Canada in the Atlantic region, and then the other $9 million, in terms of the Atlantic provinces, would be under ACOA.
Ms. Minns: That is correct.
Senator Murray: The $313 million is for the Atlantic provinces. My heavens! If there is $2 billion, say, in 2007-08 more or less for industrial, regional, scientific-technological programs, what is the balance? We know there is $313 million for infrastructure in Atlantic Canada. How much of that $2 billion is infrastructure in other parts of Quebec, Ontario and the West?
Ms. Minns: I could only make an assumption on that. That is a question that Infrastructure Canada is best left to answer. My understanding would be that all of that funding was spent on infrastructure programs across Canada, of which $313 million was spent in the Atlantic region.
Senator Murray: I am sorry, Ms. Minns. Perhaps it is the heading that is misleading; slide 13 deals with industrial, regional and scientific-technological programs, of which I suspect there are quite a few in transport. Infrastructure in the rest of the country would be a part of that $2 billion.
The Chair: We will have representatives from Infrastructure Canada here next week, and we will try to clarify with them.
Ms. Minns: That would be best answered by Infrastructure Canada.
The Chair: To get you to speculate is probably wrong. We want to know what you delivered. That was $313 million plus your $9 million in infrastructure?
Ms. Minns: That is what was spent in infrastructure programs in the Atlantic region.
The Chair: Thank you. That is a helpful clarification.
Senator Oliver: Welcome, and thank you for your presentation.
I have some questions about ACOA and control and whether or not the budget has been cut. You said that the Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative was not coming forward as quickly as anticipated.
Can you explain if this money has been lost to the department, or if there was a big surge in project application under the program, would the money be available for next year?
Ms. Minns: The program was initially approved for $55 million. The agency has currently expended $45 million. The remaining $10 million is not lost to the agency or to that initiative. The funding is not planned until 2009-10.
We had anticipated flowing all of the money in 2007-08. Our cash profile for that project had $40 million allocated in 2007-08. In fact, not all of it flowed, so we have reprofiled it, not into 2008-09 but into 2009-10. The balance of $10 million is available for use in 2009-10.
Senator Oliver: In terms of ACOA and infrastructure, ACOA is a delivery agent, and you have explained this several times. You are only the agent rather than having complete control of these infrastructure funds in the budget.
Why does ACOA not have complete control? Can you explain the reasoning behind that?
Ms. Minns: That was a decision taken by the government in 2003. I am afraid that I cannot answer that question about why that decision was taken.
However, I point out that the change is an accounting change and not a program delivery change. The dollars are now recorded on the books and in the public accounts of Infrastructure Canada.
Senator Oliver: I think you clarified this next question in part when you answered Senator Murray's questions. Slide13 indicates $375 million, which is reduced to $336.9 million, which you said indicates a loss of $38.1 million.
Ms. Minns: That is correct.
Senator Oliver: Does this actually indicate that ACOA's budget is being cut?
Ms. Minns: No, it does not. That reflects a change in cash profiles. ACOA was allocated, for example, $55 million for the Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative. That was incremental funding that was not a part of our core funding. It was added to our budget.
Senator Oliver: Is that what brought it up to $375 million?
Ms. Minns: It helped to bring it up. When the project is terminated, it also comes back out. You see our budgets appear to be decreasing when, in fact, it is simply the project coming to its natural end.
Senator Oliver: Therefore, $336.9 million would be the real budget for ACOA, is that correct?
Ms. Minns: That is a very difficult question to answer. We see cash flow fluctuations occurring all the time.
For example, I said that our budget's decrease is being offset by an increase of $3 million for the Atlantic Innovation Fund in 2008-09. When the funding for that program was initially approved, we allocated more of the funding toward the end of the program because as projects are approved, it takes a while for them to ramp up. While the program gets kicked off in one year, we may not actually see the cash going out the door right away. We tended to allocate more of the funding in the outer years.
Therefore, we actually see the Atlantic Innovation Fund increasing by $3 million next year, but that does not mean that our budget increases permanently by that amount. It is just the way the cash flows in and out of our budgets.
Senator Oliver: Are you budgeting for an increase next year in the overall ACOA budget?
Ms. Minns: For the Atlantic Innovation Fund, yes. The money that is coming out of our budgets next year was money that was never in our budgets on a permanent basis.
Senator Oliver: Such as the shipyards?
Ms. Minns: Yes, the shipyards.
Senator Oliver: Is there anything other than the shipyards?
Ms. Minns: No, there is not. We had some residual monies left from the original Infrastructure Canada program of about $5 million, and some of that money is declining. Again, as we pointed out, the Infrastructure Canada money is increasing on their books.
Senator Oliver: Therefore, any suggestion that the ACOA budget is being cut year over year is not accurate.
Ms. Minns: No, it is not being cut year over year. The last cut that we had was instituted in 2004-05, and there was a second cut in 2005-06. Those cuts are ongoing, but they have come out of our reference levels and are gone. The budget is not declining because of cuts.
Senator Oliver: Thank you very much.
Senator Ringuette: You have clarified the situation in that you do remain the delivery agent because you have developed an expertise with regard to the evaluation of infrastructure requests. That expertise is still within your offices, correct?
Ms. Minns: That is correct.
Senator Ringuette: With regard to the Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative, you said that $45 million has already been spent on the allocation for this particular initiative. Has that amount all been spent in the Saint John region, or am I asking for too much detail here?
Ms. Minns: Quite frankly, I was not anticipating that question, so I am scrambling. I believe the answer to that question at this point in time is "yes." Mr. Smith, can you assist with that?
Robert Smith, Director General, Community Development, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency: No, I cannot.
Senator Ringuette: I understand that. Perhaps you could look into that and send the information to our clerk.
Mr. Smith: The applicant was contributing an equal amount of money. We are not sure where they made those investments. It would have been their decision as to where to spend some of that money.
Senator Ringuette: It would be interesting, especially as a New Brunswicker, to know where that money was spent.
The Chair: Will you undertake to obtain that information for us?
Ms. Minns: Yes, I will.
The Chair: If you could send it to our clerk, we will distribute it to all members of the committee.
Senator Ringuette: Initially, I was curious with regard to the infrastructure money. You have clarified that you still have the expertise. Has something changed in the process of accessing the money?
Ms. Minns: I will ask my colleague, Mr. Smith, to address that question.
Mr. Smith: I do not believe there have been any fundamental changes. ACOA still has an important role to play in the implementation of the program. I am speaking specifically about the Communities Component of the Building Canada Fund. We work jointly with Infrastructure Canada, provincial governments in each province and the local communities in order to deliver the programming. We are very much involved in the first stages of determining whether or not the applicant — I should back up.
There is a call for proposals that is initiated. Minister Cannon and Minister MacKay in our region issue a call for proposals. There has only been one thus far, and it was in the province of New Brunswick. This program is just being rolled out. There is much work underway right now. I am talking about the Building Canada Fund communities.
Senator Murray: What is it?
Mr. Smith: Are you referring to the Communities Component?
Senator Murray: What is the Building Canada Fund?
Mr. Smith: The Building Canada program is a $33 billion federal initiative. Within that is the Building Canada Fund, which is an $8.8 billion program. I might be getting into Infrastructure Canada's territory here.
In answer to your question, our role is very much unchanged from the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, MRIF, which was the previous program to this new one.
Senator Ringuette: I am staying within the context of process here. You have just indicated that Minister MacKay issues a call for proposals.
Mr. Smith: It is a call that goes out to the municipalities in the province if they wish to apply for infrastructure funding for a particular initiative related to, in this case, it would be wastewater, freshwater, sewage and so on.
Senator Ringuette: Do the provinces not have a role in this?
Mr. Smith: Of course; there is a joint secretariat staffed by ACOA and provincial officials. The applications come into that secretariat. When they come in, it is determined whether or not they are eligible and if they meet the terms and conditions and address national priorities. They are then assigned a numeric rating by this joint secretariat, and ACOA is involved in that. Then they move through the approval process.
Ms. Minns: ACOA is involved in the due diligence process and the evaluation of the proposals, in the recommendations going forward for approval and then, after the projects have been approved, in the monitoring and in the claim payment process as well. Therefore, we are involved in all of the decision making.
Senator Ringuette: What would be the length of that process, from the time that you get an application to the time that you have a response?
Mr. Smith: That depends on the nature of the application or initiative itself. Some are faster than others, depending on their complexity. I would assume it is about six months to process because an environmental assessment is required. A lot of work needs to be done in some cases.
Senator Ringuette: From the chart that you brought us, we are looking at a total of $337 million. Is a certain amount of money pre-identified on a yearly basis for each of the four provinces, or is it a melting pot for the four provinces and it is first-come, first-served? How do you work this out?
Ms. Minns: Each program has a certain funding formula associated with it. For example, there is the Communities Component of the Building Canada Fund. A set amount of money is allocated to each province, and part of the formula is also a per capita funding. A formula determines how much money flows through to each of the various provinces.
Senator Ringuette: At the start of the year, do you know how much money can be allocated to Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick or Nova Scotia?
Ms. Minns: Yes.
Senator Ringuette: Could you send us those details? I see your total for infrastructure, but I would like the provincial break down.
The Chair: Once you decide or are told there is a certain amount of money for New Brunswick, for example, who makes the decision as to who gets those funds? Is it Infrastructure Canada or ACOA that makes that decision?
Ms. Minns: As my colleague indicated, there is a joint secretariat to which all proposals are submitted, and it goes through a due diligence and evaluation process through that joint secretariat. Recommendations are made and go forward.
Funding of up to $250,000 may be approved by the minister responsible for ACOA. Funding for projects above $250,000 goes to the minister responsible for Infrastructure Canada, to Minister Cannon for approval. However, I would add that it is anticipated, with approval authority of $250,000, that Minister MacKay will have authority for approximately 50 per cent of the projects that are approved, not just in New Brunswick but across all of the Atlantic provinces.
The Chair: That is a helpful clarification.
Senator Ringuette: ACOA is not the only regional economic development agency of the federal government. Are you aware if your processes and the way you operate in regard to infrastructure fund follow the same guidelines, principles, priorities and processes as FedNor or the Western Economic Diversification Canada or the Quebec agency?
Ms. Minns: It is my understanding that the processes are similar across the regional development agencies. I also believe that the other regional development agencies will be appearing before you as witnesses as well and will be able to talk to any differences. However, my understanding is that it is similar across all of the agencies.
Senator Ringuette: I have two other questions, and you can provide the information later if you do not have it now. In regard to the Main Estimates, your mandate is huge as an agency and as a partner. This committee has heard witnesses with respect to funds allocated to centres for commercialization and research. In the last years, only four centres have been receiving operating expenses, and none in Atlantic Canada. Eleven Networks of Centres of Excellence have received additional funding and, again, none in Atlantic Canada. What is your role in regard to those research centres and centres of excellence that are so important to the future of Atlantic Canada in developing our economies, which is your number one priority?
Ms. Minns: I will have to offer to find supplementary information with respect to that particular question as it relates specifically to those centres. I would add that we have an Atlantic Innovation Fund within ACOA, and I believe $300 million over five years is the budget for the Atlantic Innovation Fund. It looks at the issue of research and development, commercialization and moving new applications out into the economy. It is very much a focus of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. That is a general answer to the question, but I will look for supplementary information to answer the question specifically.
Senator Ringuette: Another new initiative of the current government is the public-private partnership, and an office has been established in regard to this. Are you participating in this office and, if so, what is your role and where do you see Atlantic Canada moving in that area?
Mr. Smith: We have not been made aware of the details of the private-public partnership program yet, so I am not sure what the roles will be.
Senator Ringuette: From the Minister of Finance's appearance before this committee, there is a lot of focus in regard to that office, particularly looking at infrastructure. It is important that we keep this new initiative in mind and see where Atlantic Canada fits in, because it was closely tied to infrastructure.
Mr. Smith: We are certainly looking forward to finding out more details about it. Obviously, infrastructure is important to all parts of the country, but many of the communities in Atlantic Canada are some of our oldest communities and have some of the oldest infrastructure. Many communities will be celebrating their sesquicentennial — or one hundred and fiftieth — anniversaries in coming years. This is important to us, not only from the point of view of infrastructure but also from the rest of programming in terms of economic development. We are very conscious of what the senator is suggesting. We fully subscribe to that.
Senator Ringuette: Two weeks ago, Senator Fortier appeared before this committee and said that Public Works and Government Services Canada, PWGSC, had put a regional office in Halifax, Montreal, Ontario and in the West to help small- and medium-sized businesses get contract work with the federal government.
I asked why that office is not located within ACOA because of its mandate to help foster small- and medium-sized businesses. The question of efficiency is there. That is a heads-up to let you know it might be a subject of discussion.
Senator Di Nino: I have several points of clarification. I agree with Senator Murray that this handout is not easy to read, so we look forward to clarifications on that information, provided that it is from you folks.
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency gets core funding, plus special projects would be added from time to time that would be funded. At some point, those projects would be completed and that funding would drop off. That explains the fluctuations that you have.
My understanding, from what I see and what I have heard, is that there have not been cuts to the core funding of ACOA for many years.
Ms. Minns: That is correct. The last of the cuts were introduced in 2005-06 and rolled out over a period of three years.
Senator Di Nino: There were some cuts way back when.
Ms. Minns: They were cuts that were national, as my colleague points out. They were not just limited to ACOA. The first one was in 2004-05, and it was $9 million on an ongoing basis that was intended for reallocation from lower priorities to higher priorities of the government.
The following year, in 2005-06, the government at that time introduced the Expenditure Review Committee. That committee made recommendations that impacted on all federal government departments. At that point, ACOA was tasked with finding a means of reducing its reference levels by $7 million in the first year, $14 million in the second year, $21 million in the third year and ongoing.
That, combined with the original $9 million, means that our budgets were cut originally by $30 million a year ongoing, and those final cuts came into effect in 2007-08 but were introduced in 2005-06.
Senator Di Nino: Often ACOA has been called a delivery agent. From the answers that you have given this morning, for those of us who are not that familiar with that particular program, it seems as if your role is greater than that. I want to focus a little on that.
ACOA does get involved. To what degree and what influence has it had, in effect, in the final choosing of the projects? With whom do you work to assess and evaluate these programs to then make the decision or recommend a decision?
Ms. Minns: As my colleague mentioned, there is a joint secretariat. ACOA is a member of that secretariat, as is the province and Infrastructure Canada.
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency sits at that table, as does the province, because of the knowledge that we bring of our own region and its specific needs. Infrastructure Canada is at the table to represent the national perspective. With the two perspectives combined, in that manner we can put forward the best recommendations that meet both regional and national priorities.
Senator Di Nino: Do you consult with municipalities and other stakeholders, and do you involve them in the dialogue or decision making?
Mr. Smith: We are engaged in outreach, ensuring that municipalities are aware of the programs, advising them and working with them to the extent possible to ensure they take best advantage of the infrastructure program, for example.
ACOA is widely dispersed throughout the region. We have, I believe, 39 physical points of contact and a mobile workforce, so we are present in the communities.
Senator Di Nino: Does ACOA involve itself in ensuring that there is a regional balance in the distribution of the funds that are received, or is that dictated to you?
Ms. Minns: As I indicated earlier, funding formulas have been identified for the various programs. There is a constant amount that is allocated to each of the provinces, and then the funding formula kicks in beyond that. It is based on per capita, so there is an equity in terms of how the funding is allocated.
Senator Di Nino: My question was not well put. I understood you when you said that. Within the province, for example, you have Cape Breton and the southern part of Nova Scotia. Does ACOA play any role in assessing or evaluating the programs that are presented by these different regions within the province or is that primarily a provincial responsibility?
Mr. Smith: It is a shared responsibility. It is a demand-driven program, so first the communities need to be aware that there is a program to which they can apply. They make an application, which is evaluated to determine its eligibility. However, we do not target municipalities specifically to promote the program. It is simply announced as a call for proposals throughout the region to every municipality. Every mayor, for example, receives a copy of the letter.
Senator Di Nino: I have heard it is a different situation in Ontario. We hear many complaints. That is why I am asking about your organization.
Mr. Smith: In the most recent call in Nova Scotia, every single mayor of every municipality received a letter.
Senator Di Nino: They all make proposals and someone has to decide which one of those proposals is the best or neediest. Does ACOA play a role in that?
Mr. Smith: Yes, we do, very much so.
Senator Di Nino: ACOA obviously exists for a specific purpose with a particular mandate. Are you getting your fair share of the money of the infrastructure program, as an example, of all the money that is available across the country, to be able to meet that purpose or that mandate?
The Chair: It is never enough.
Ms. Minns: That is the right answer. There is never enough. I think that every jurisdiction and every region would respond that way. That is not a question that I can honestly answer; that is the government's decision to make.
Senator Di Nino: When you are addressing the taxpayers of this country, do you think that the public funds that are expended by ACOA are meeting their purpose to deliver valuable benefit to the citizens and residents of the ACOA region?
Ms. Minns: One might accuse me of being biased if I was to respond, "yes," to that question.
I would respond that we are required by Treasury Board policy to undertake an evaluation of all our programs every five years. We are supposed to look at the relevance, the continuing policy requirements, whether we are meeting the objectives of the program and if we are doing so effectively and efficiently.
We have a viable evaluation program within ACOA, and we are very careful to ensure that all of our programming is put through that scrutiny on a regular basis. Where there is need for corrective action, we ensure it is taken. However, largely our evaluation work, which is conducted very independently so that credible and non-biased information comes back to us, has been very supportive of the results that ACOA has achieved with the investment of the Canadian taxpayer.
Mr. Smith: I fully agree with my colleague.
Senator Di Nino: I thank you for your answers, and I appreciate your honesty.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Ms. Frenette, you are the Director of Finance; how many people do you direct?
Denise Frenette, Director General, Finance, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency: In all, there are 20 people in the Finance and Administration Directorate, Mr. Chair, ten of whom are financial people. We also have offices in each province; each regional office has a finance director and support staff to handle regional transactions.
Senator De Bané: Where are you based?
Ms. Frenette: In Moncton.
Senator De Bané: Can I assume that you are Acadian?
Ms. Frenette: Yes, a proud Acadian.
Senator De Bané: Congratulations. So you have 20 or so people and regional offices in all provinces. What does the Auditor General's office think of ACOA's financial management?
Ms. Frenette: The Office of the Auditor General has not formally and specifically audited the agency. But we have the internal government evaluation of our financial management for each financial year. Our performance in financial management is quite satisfactory.
Senator De Bané: Well done, Ms. Frenette, and well done to the vice-president, Ms. Minns, and to Mr. Smith.
[English]
Senator Nancy Ruth: Please help me understand. The joint secretariat looks at applications for under $250,000 and over $250,000?
Ms. Minns: The joint secretariat receives and evaluates all project applications. The funding level of $250,000 determines where the approval of the final project rests, whether it is with Minister MacKay or Minister Cannon.
Senator Nancy Ruth: What are the criteria that the secretariat uses to determine whether a project should be approved under the Building Canada Fund?
Mr. Smith: That is a level of detail with which I am not personally involved. The secretariat is provided with guidelines, and they have operating procedures with which I am not familiar.
Senator Nancy Ruth: I had intended to ask whether the secretariat has some type of ideal split or allocation target, for instance, among green infrastructure municipal projects, transportation projects, connectivity, broadband or culture. How do you split it up? What are your values? How are they determined?
Ms. Minns: We can make available to you the operating procedures that we have available to us, but I would also suggest that Infrastructure Canada is probably well positioned to answer some of these questions.
Senator Nancy Ruth: I always like to ask questions about human rights, equality, gender and affirmative action. I would like to know whether the joint secretariat uses a lens such as that. I do know there is an Aboriginal focus, but I am wondering, do you do anything about race, gender or poverty issues, or is it simply Aboriginal issues?
Ms. Minns: Again, that level of detail we will have to make available to you. We do not have that on hand.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Thank you. That would be great.
Senator Murray: The improvement of Canada's economic physical infrastructure is absolutely key to our competitive success in the world. As we all know, we have a lot of catching up to do with regard to economic and physical infrastructure, right across the country. There is no point going into the reasons for that, but we have lost a lot of ground and have a lot of catching up to do.
My issue here with regard to federal infrastructure programs in Atlantic Canada has to do with strategic coherence and who is responsible.
There is only one federal agency whose mandate is to develop an overall federal economic development strategy for Atlantic Canada, and that agency is ACOA. When one talks about strategy, it immediately raises the question of priorities. When one talks about priorities, one is venturing onto dicey political ground. Priorities give rise to local rivalries, political pressures and all the rest of it, none of which scandalizes anyone at this table.
However, someone must bite the bullet with regard to infrastructure, as with other matters in Atlantic Canada, and develop a strategy, including priorities. That someone must be your agency. Perhaps I should be addressing your minister, your president or others on this. On the other hand, perhaps you can help us.
Our notes say that and your testimony is that Infrastructure Canada acts as coordinator and funding agent and is responsible for project review, selection, approval and negotiation of contribution agreements. Monitoring and oversight of projects are shared between Infrastructure Canada and, in this case, ACOA. Programs are implemented by ACOA. ACOA is responsible for the delivery of community-based infrastructure programs. However, as I read our notes, the provinces and municipalities manage the projects.
I hear what you are saying about joint secretariats and ACOA having a voice in all decisions and all the rest of it, but it suggests to me that the upper hand is really with Infrastructure Canada on the policy, strategy and priorities. That is not the way it is supposed to be, in my humble opinion.
I believe that ACOA, if it does not have the last word, should have almost the last word on what is funded and when, in terms of infrastructure in Atlantic Canada. Those decisions should be made in light of an infrastructure strategy and an overall federal economic strategy for Atlantic Canada. Can you assist us with that?
Ms. Minns: That is a very difficult question to answer. I appreciate the question. I appreciate your concerns for the Atlantic region. I believe it is truly a decision that needs to be made by the government, by ministers.
I repeat the fact that ACOA is involved in all decision making with respect to the projects that are being considered for the Atlantic region. We bring our expertise and knowledge of the regions into those discussions, in very much the same way that the province sits at the table. They, too, have the expertise and knowledge of the needs of their province.
As I said earlier, Infrastructure Canada is there because of the national perspective. It is important that all three elements come together in the decision making, but ACOA is very much involved in all of the decision making with respect to projects that are approved for the Atlantic region.
Senator Murray: I appreciate that. As I have said, we are playing catch-up nationally with regard to infrastructure, but it is my opinion that there is a longer distance to go in Atlantic Canada than almost any other place in the country.
Mayors and local councillors speak for their parishes, and provincial governments speak for their provinces. Infrastructure Canada, presumably, speaks for some national perspective or policy. Is there a defined regional infrastructure policy that is the property of ACOA to your knowledge?
Ms. Minns: Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. Smith: Nor mine, no.
Senator Murray: Thank you. That is something we should pursue with others.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Murray. I know that some of these questions might have gone beyond your anticipated range of questioning. If, after you leave this meeting today, you have some second thoughts on any issues or think that you can help us on something, by all means send us that information, will you?
Ms. Minns: By all means, senator.
The Chair: We are looking to have a broad understanding of the mandate and the role of ACOA, and, if it is evolving, how it is evolving.
I will ask the same questions of each of the agencies and Infrastructure Canada. Hopefully, we will then have a clear understanding of where we are going in Canada and perhaps make some recommendations on where we should go.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: As you know, in Western Canada, we have an agency called the Department of Western Economic Diversification. This is the agency that looks after the western Canadian economy. Over the years, we have been able to establish a structure for the French-speaking community and for small to medium-size businesses. We have the Economic Development Council that provides a link between francophone businesses throughout Manitoba, the regional and local offices, and, of course, Western Economic Diversification.
Your agency, ACAO, receives core funding and project funding, and you have your main office in Moncton and regional and local offices. Do the Acadians, French-speaking New Brunswickers, get services in their own language? Is that the case at the Moncton office and other regional offices? How do you handle this in terms of customer service in person and by telephone, and also in terms of the applications for projects submitted to you? Could you tell me how your agency works?
[English]
Ms. Minns: The Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency is based in Moncton; that is our head office. We also have a regional office in each of the provincial capitals. The regional office with which any of our New Brunswick small- and medium-sized enterprises would be dealing with would be our Fredericton office. The province of New Brunswick is, of course, officially bilingual.
[Translation]
Our Fredericton office is bilingual and service is provided to all businesses in both languages. We also have some small offices throughout the province of New Brunswick.
[English]
These offices are available within a short distance and, of course, offer services in both languages.
[Translation]
In French-speaking regions, some offices can provide services in both languages, and, specifically in northern New Brunswick, in French.
[English]
Senator Chaput: When they put in an application for a project and wish to do so in French, do they need to translate it themselves or do you look after that?
Ms. Minns: They do not have to translate. Their application is accepted in French or English, whatever language they prefer to use. All our forms are available in the two languages, so they can use the language of their choice.
Senator Chaput: Would it not take more time? Would they not miss the deadline because they made their application in French?
Ms. Minns: No, absolutely not.
Senator Day: Mr. Smith was talking about being able to communicate the various programs. Do you have a list of all the programs administered by ACOA by name with the amount of funding available per province and the parameters or rules for the use of those funds? Is that something that you have handy that you could make available to anyone in Atlantic Canada?
Ms. Minns: Yes, we do.
The Chair: Could you provide us with a copy of that?
Ms. Minns: Yes, I can make that information available to you. There are terms and conditions that govern each of our programs. Those terms and conditions are approved by the Treasury Board ministers and are available for each of our programs. As well, we have our regional budget allocations. Those are also allocated according to the various programs that we have. That information is available.
The Chair: Thank you. I am looking at the list from the point of view of if I were a municipal politician in Atlantic Canada or a small business person. I would like to assess how easy it would be for such an individual to look at your list and figure out in what areas he or she could potentially get help for a project.
Ms. Minns: Certainly, I will make that information available to you. We also have an Internet site that provides that type of information for anyone looking for it.
The Chair: I thought you might, but I am interested in knowing what you share in terms of communications material.
Ms. Minns: If you are interested in communications material specifically, we will put that together.
The Chair: There was media attention to an Atlantic gateway, and I understand that at one time there was funding for the Atlantic gateway initiative that flowed through ACOA, is that correct?
Ms. Minns: To date, money has not just flowed through ACOA, but we have made ACOA funding available for studies undertaken for the Atlantic gateway project. Money has also been announced as part of the infrastructure money for the gateway. To the best of my knowledge, that has not yet been allocated. The project right now is still in the preliminary stages of assessment.
The Chair: The funding that has been forthcoming thus far has not been additional or extraordinary funding?
Ms. Minns: No, it has not.
The Chair: It has been under one of your various programs.
Ms. Minns: That is correct.
The Chair: Does ACOA have a mandate for advocacy for the Atlantic region not only within Atlantic Canada but also outside of the Atlantic region? If so, what are you doing in that regard? If not, why do you not?
Ms. Minns: We very much have that role. In fact, our advocacy role is included in our legislation. We have an Ottawa office here. We have a small group — I was about to say "large," but it is not that large by general terms. We have a group of people, probably about 20 individuals, who work in Ottawa. Their role, amongst others, is to ensure that they are advocating the Atlantic region's needs in terms of policy decisions and formulation being undertaken by other government departments.
We also have advocacy champions. Each one of our regional vice-presidents has the responsibility for one or more advocacy files. They do spend a lot of time here in Ottawa at meetings at the level of assistant deputy minister and deputy minister discussing policies that are being formulated by other federal government departments. We are invited to those tables in our advocacy role to ensure that the needs of the Atlantic region are represented and are taken into consideration in policy development.
That, in a nutshell, is the short answer. I am certain if you want to sit down with my president, she could probably talk to you for a very long time about that.
The Chair: We appreciate the short answer that you have given us.
Senator Nancy Ruth: To follow up on the website and people's ability access to it, is there any identification of the groups? I am referring back to the race, gender or environment issues that I raised. Is there any indication such as that that would help people?
Ms. Minns: We have a number of programs. For example, we have the Women in Business Initiative and the Youth Entrepreneur Development Initiative. We have programs that are definitely targeted to Aboriginal peoples. That information would be available through the website.
Senator Ringuette: The Atlantic gateway is one of the key infrastructure needs in Atlantic Canada. As Senator Murray indicated earlier on gateways, we are lagging in Atlantic Canada with respect to Western Canada. Hundreds of millions of dollars are flowing to the Asia Pacific Gateway. I am sad that there is no infrastructure plan for Atlantic Canada. The lag and the discrepancy in providing what is needed for Atlantic Canada is widening in comparison to what is happening in the rest of the country. I do have major concerns about that.
Hopefully, in the near future, your strategic people will put together an infrastructure plan. If so, perhaps you will provide the members of this committee with a copy of that plan because we are very much interested in ensuring that the regions are moving along.
Ms. Minns: The Atlantic gateway report has been made available publicly. I will be happy to ensure that this committee receives a copy of the report. It was basically a feasibility study undertaken to ensure that it made sense to go forward.
I would point out that the Atlantic gateway is one of our advocacy files. Our minister led a delegation to India this past winter — I believe in February — for the purposes of promoting the Atlantic gateway in India. My understanding is that there will be a return visit of a delegation from India coming to visit the Atlantic region some time in the near future.
Senator Ringuette: I distinctly remember Minister Flaherty and my question with regard to the Atlantic gateway, asking when we will get the funding needed to go ahead. That was about a year ago, and it is still not in the cards.
Senator Oliver: Ms. Minns, in response to a question from Senator Day, you said that you had an office complement here in Ottawa of some 20 people. Ms. Frenette said that there were about 20 people in her office in Moncton. She went on to say that there are also people in the financial directorate in every one of the Atlantic provinces. How many people are employed in all of ACOA? What percentage of the overall budget is payroll and administrative costs?
Ms. Minns: We have approximately 750 full-time equivalents within the agency across the four regional offices — that is, our head office in Moncton, our office here in Ottawa as well as a number of small local offices throughout the Atlantic region. In terms of our administration and our corporate overhead, it would be about 25 per cent.
Ms. Frenette: It is around that vicinity. We have about 150 people in the directorate, plus regional support.
Senator Oliver: Would you estimate around 25 per cent of the overall budget?
Ms. Minns: I would estimate 20 to 25 per cent would be the administrative and corporate overhead, which would include our legal services, our president's office, my own organization as well as the administrative support in the regional offices.
The Chair: In determining that percentage, are you including the funds for which you are merely the delivery agent? Are you taking the percentage including that global figure, or just the tighter figure that ACOA actually has in the ACOA core budget?
Ms. Minns: Actually, I am speaking only of our operating budget when I talk of 20 to 25 per cent. I am not including the larger program delivery budgets, no, because our operating budget is approximately $80 million versus the total agency budget of over $300 million.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Oliver, for that question. It shows your old skills as the chair of this committee. We would like to have you back here.
Senator Oliver: I would like to be back.
The Chair: Seeing no other questions, I will thank you, Ms. Minns, Ms. Frenette and Mr. Smith, for being here and representing ACOA so well. Keep up the good work that you are doing for the Atlantic region.
Ms. Minns: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and senators.
The committee adjourned.