Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 4 - Evidence - Meeting of April 21, 2009
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 21, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day in camera at 9:40 a.m. to consider a draft report and a draft budget.
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
(The committee resumed in public.)
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I call the meeting to order in a public session.
Senator Raine: I would like to congratulate our colleague Patrick Brazeau on the birth of his baby, which is why he is not here this week.
Senator Lang: It is not often that that happens in the Senate.
Senator Raine: I believe he had a son.
The Chair: Speak for yourself, Senator Lang.
Senator Carstairs: Honourable senators, I move the adoption of the third report of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.
The Chair: That is the third report, as amended.
Is there any discussion?
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: All those opposed, if any?
The motion is carried.
You have before you a proposed budget for the study that we are undertaking on terms and set dates, as well as the accountability aspect of those two issues.
Could someone please move passage of the budget?
Senator Campbell: I so move.
The Chair: Is there any discussion about the budget?
The budget covers the financial requirements for travel to carry out the study. The study will be conducted in Ottawa as well as in Alberta, Manitoba, New Brunswick, and possibly Saskatchewan.
Are there any questions with regard to this budget prior to me appearing before the Internal Economy Committee and then presenting it to the Senate?
There being no discussion, we have a motion on the floor. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed, if any?
Abstentions?
The motion is carried.
I believe that concludes our business. Is there anything else that honourable senators wish to bring forward at this time?
Senator Sibbeston: We are meeting with the minister tonight. Should we be polite, nice, adversarial?
The Chair: I do not tell anyone how to behave. I will never question the qualities of the honourable senators on this committee. I know that they know how to conduct themselves in a manner that will contribute to the improved lives of the Aboriginal peoples with whom we work.
You will conduct yourself as you see fit, and I feel quite comfortable with that.
Senator Sibbeston: Some of us are passionate about certain issues, and this is an opportunity to impress the minister with our passion and determination.
The Chair: Voltaire apologized, saying that he would have written a shorter letter if he had had more time. I would ask you to keep everything as succinct as possible in order that every senator will have an opportunity to address their issues.
Senator Sibbeston: In the North years ago, when we were in our infancy regarding the issue of responsible government, it was a big event whenever the Minister of Indian Affairs came from Ottawa. There was not a great deal of time, so we had to be organized. We decided in advance who would raise each issue. That is the way we dealt with things, because the time was too limited to deal with big, relevant issues.
I had that in mind. I do appreciate that this is a free-for-all.
What issues are we likely to deal with? Will it be a nothing kind of thing, or do we have issues that we could raise with the minister? Some of us should think about the things we want to deal with.
The Chair: If I have an opportunity, after the rest of you have had an opportunity, I would like to bring up education. Senators Hubley, Dyck, myself and others believe that closing the gap on education is critical.
In order that we do not duplicate our efforts, that is one area we are planning to discuss. From my perspective only, I think education is the most important issue facing our First Nations people.
Senator Raine: I had dinner last night with Nathan Matthew, who is with the First Nations educational association in British Columbia. He is also vice-president of Thompson Rivers University, in charge of Aboriginal education. He reiterated how important it is to revise the funding and look at how it has fallen behind over the last 20 years. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a strategy for addressing education, so that we are all singing from the same song sheet.
I have never met with a Minister of Indian Affairs as part of a committee. Do we ask him what his priorities are, or vice versa? Will it be an open dialogue?
The Chair: The process is informal. You can ask him, or you can tell him your concerns. There are no restrictions. It is a dialogue.
To repeat, I think we should be as non-partisan as possible. I realize the dynamics of politics in Ottawa, but we have always maintained a non-partisan position at the meetings I have attended.
I have full faith that given the intelligence and capabilities of this committee a strategy will develop quickly during the course of the meeting.
Senator Raine: What are our expectations for the meeting?
The Chair: That we understand each other better and that we are able to work together.
Senator Raine: As well as undertaking studies that are of assistance in moving our agenda forward.
The Chair: That is right, but not necessarily for the government; rather, an agenda that moves things forward for Aboriginal peoples.
Senator Carstairs: I will not be at the meeting tonight because at two o'clock I am tabling in the Senate a major report on aging that we have been working on since November 2006. I want to make reference to it, although I cannot tell you any of the recommendations because it has not yet been tabled. I can say that a number of the recommendations address Aboriginal peoples. Some of you may want to glance at those recommendations quickly while you are sitting in the chamber this afternoon. I would appreciate if you raised them with the minister.
The Chair: If there is anything in there that you would like to have raised, tell any of us and we will ensure that we raise it on your behalf.
Are there any other questions or comments?
Senator Sibbeston: One of the main purposes of the meeting with the minister is to find out his priorities, what he, as the Minister of Indian Affairs, would like to accomplish and how the Senate can be of help. That should be one of the first questions we ask him.
The elections matter that we are studying is one thing that could help him in his work. That is one question I would pose to him.
The Chair: If there is a formal aspect to the meeting, you can be first with that question, if you like.
Senator Lang: There should be a little bit of organization for the meeting, otherwise we will not accomplish very much other than trying to figure out who will pay for the dinner.
As Senator Sibbeston said, I would like to hear from the minister about his priorities. I think that should be the protocol. He should give us an idea of where he is looking at going.
In view of the fact that we have made the decision, subject to financing, to review governance and elections across the country, we should hear his thoughts on that as well. What does he expect from us?
In the area of education, I believe there is agreement around this table that there are major shortcomings. The question is about what his department will do. I do not think that only money will solve the problem.
For those who were not at the meeting with the Australian delegation, I said there that we should be looking at using a province as a test program. B.C. may be well on the way to delivering education through the province in conjunction with the First Nations, as opposed to the federal department trying to be the department of education. I would like to hear what the committee has to say about that. If there is commonality here in that sense of direction, we could put that question to the minister and see what his thoughts are on going in that direction in the long term.
The Chair: Your reasoning on being organized is great, but we do not all necessarily share the same view on what issues are of key importance, so I would not want to restrict the committee. I am sure that the subject Senator Sibbeston brought forward — the fact that we are doing a study — as well as the issue of education can be raised.
There is a danger in being too structured. Some senators have issues. Senator Lovelace Nicholas, for instance, who comes from a First Nation in New Brunswick, may have issues that are different from others, and I do not think we should be restrictive. At the same time, we can go in with a quasi-structured plan, as has been pointed out by Senator Sibbeston and Senator Lang.
Senator Campbell: I will not be there tonight either because I have to attend an event for British Columbia. At the meeting we had with Minister Prentice, we specifically did not impose a structure so that everyone would have an opportunity to ask the questions they wanted to ask. It was more of an opportunity for the minister to know who we are, where we are going, and how we can assist the First Nations people through his ministry. That is more critical.
I thought the meeting worked well because it was not structured. Everyone had an opportunity to ask questions on their area of interest. Otherwise, it turns into a government working dinner, which I find terribly boring and useless. The last meeting was not that formal. While eating, people were talking back and forth. There were staff people in attendance, so we got to know who they are as well.
I did not get the feeling at that meeting that any questions went unasked or, more important, unanswered by the minister.
Senator Raine: Are we planning any studies on education over the next few years?
The Chair: Senator Dyck and I have discussed that at great length. It is such an all-encompassing area of study, and with a minority government, time can be quite limited. We have tried to focus on issues that we can deal with in a short period of time and get the study finished. There is nothing worse than starting a study and not finishing it.
Senator Raine: Perhaps we could ask the analyst to give us a little background on education funding; it is not something we have to study. I was told that per capita funding has been frozen for 20 years. If that is the case, we need to know that.
Tonina Simeone, Researcher, Library of Parliament: That is right, senator. The departmental budget has been capped at 2 per cent since 1995 when they did the expenditure review.
Senator Raine: The total department budget?
Ms. Simeone: The department's core budget for education, social services, that kind of thing, has been capped at 2 per cent since 1995.
Senator Raine: I would like to see how much we have fallen behind in the last 20 years compared to where we would have been.
Ms. Simeone: There has still been an increase, and different budgets have specific targeted programs to which they will dedicate money.
The Assembly of First Nations has done a study on the department's funding, accounting for inflation and population increases in the Aboriginal community, and they found that it has fallen.
I can provide a briefing note that sets that out. I cannot tell you personally whether all those calculations were rigorously done, but I can give you what the positions are, if you would like.
Senator Raine: That would be very helpful.
The Chair: To answer your question, as far as a study is concerned, it is the will of the committee. This is not my committee; it is our committee. I think it is something that we want to do, but we would like to ensure that when we do start it, we have a chance of completing it.
Senator Raine: In some cases, a lot of information is compiled on education, and we just need to assemble it in order to move the agenda forward.
The Chair: However, it is a changing dynamic. In British Columbia different things are coming, as in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.
Senator Sibbeston: Maybe it would be of some use to at least obtain information on education from the department. Perhaps we could invite the AFN as well to get a general analysis of the situation from which to work. It would be a first step in checking out those facts.
Senator Raine: I believe the AFN had an education summit in March.
The Chair: I do not know. That could be.
Senator Sibbeston: Getting into the whole issue of Aboriginal education in the country is a big deal. In the 1980s we did an analysis of education in the Northwest Territories. It took years and years to complete because it was so much work.
Senator Raine: We do not need to redo the study to move forward; we just need the will.
Senator Sibbeston: There would be some value in finding out from the department the situation with respect to funding for education and in looking at the AFN study and inviting them to speak to us. That would give us a synopsis of the situation. We can at least do that.
The Chair: We have agreed to do the study that we have before us and we have legislation coming to us. Time is our greatest enemy.
We will ask the researcher to provide us with an overview of it, but we do not have the time to bring the department before us on education. We have committed our time otherwise.
If it is not too onerous a task — and I say that sincerely — the researcher could present an overview. Senators who are interested could speak to Ms. Simeone after the meeting.
Senator Raine: What legislation do we have coming down the pike that we need to get ready for?
The Chair: First Nations gas and oil.
Senator Raine: Is the matrimonial property bill coming our way?
The Chair: That bill is not yet even at committee stage in the House of Commons.
Colleagues, as agreed, I will present to the Senate chamber our third report and our budget.
(The committee adjourned.)