Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 11 - Evidence - June 9, 2009
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 9, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, to which was referred Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Cree- Naskapi (of Quebec) Act, met this day at 9:29 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning. I would like to welcome all honourable senators, elders, guests, members of the audience and all viewers from across the country who are watching these proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or the Web. I am Senator Gerry St. Germain from British Columbia and have the honour of chairing this committee.
The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada, generally. This morning, we are dealing with Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act.
[Translation]
Before listening to what the minister and our witnesses have to say on this topic, I would like to introduce the committee members who are in attendance.
[English]
I will begin on my left: Senator Brazeau from Quebec; Senator Lang from the Yukon; Senator Brown from Alberta; and Senator Raine from British Columbia. On my right is Senator Campbell from British Columbia; Senator Carstairs from Manitoba; Senator Dyck from Saskatchewan; and Senator Dawson from Quebec.
Senators, allow me to introduce the first witness who will address us this morning. To discuss Bill C-28, we have with us the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for the Métis and Non- Status Indians, the Honourable Chuck Strahl.
Welcome back to the committee. We are anxious to hear your views on Bill C-28. I see you are accompanied by your officials and I will leave the introduction of your officials to you, Mr. Minister. I understand you have a cabinet meeting to attend and we have asked that you be here for 30 minutes. We will keep the questions, and hopefully the answers, as concise as possible so we can get you to cabinet.
[Translation]
Hon. Chuck Strahl, P.C., M.P., Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians: Mr. Chair, honourable senators, thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee to discuss with you Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act.
[English]
Before I begin, I would like to introduce the three officials who are here with me today. Damon Rourke is the Acting Director of the Implementation Planning and Negotiations and James Bay Implementation Office at Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. Marianne Kroes is Legal Counsel with Justice Canada who currently serves in my department's Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocutor Division. Deborah Corber serves as Legal Counsel to my department on the Oujé-Bougoumou file. She is Agent of the Attorney General of Canada.
Thank you for enabling us all to appear before the committee to discuss Bill C-28, an Act to amend the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act. Bill C-28 is a short, relatively-straightforward bill but its profound implications have been immediately visible to all legislators, regardless of their political affiliations, and nowhere has this last fact been more evident than at second reading in the Senate.
Mr. Chair, I am hopeful committee members will continue to demonstrate their overwhelming support for Bill C-28. At the same time, I want to take this opportunity to thank all members for their willingness to give immediate priority to this important legislation. I am sure several in the audience to whom I have already spoken are hoping the same.
What exactly does Bill C-28 do? There are two key features of the bill: Bill C-28 amends the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act to equip the Cree Regional Authority with additional responsibilities and powers, including bylaw- making powers, as a first step toward self-government. Bill C-28 also recognizes the Cree of Oujé-Bougoumou as a separate band and a local government under the act.
In making those amendments to the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act, Bill C-28 gives the force of law to key elements of the Agreement Concerning a New Relationship between the Government of Canada and the Crees of Eeyou Istchee. For those unfamiliar with the agreement, it is a landmark accord that was signed last year between the Government of Canada and the Cree peoples of Eastern James Bay and the Southern Hudson Bay regions of Northern Quebec: The Cree of Eeyou Istchee.
By negotiating and signing this historic agreement, both sides have resolved the differences and disputes that have arisen out of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, signed by the Cree of Eeyou Istchee, the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada in 1975.
[Translation]
But even though the agreement ends longstanding difficulties, I believe its profound, enduring value lies not in what it does about the past but what it does for the future — what exciting opportunities it holds open for the Cree of Eeyou Istchee.
[English]
The agreement enables us, the Government of Canada and the Cree of Eeyou Istchee to focus all of our attention and efforts on moving forward and concentrating on what really matters in life. We can focus on building stronger, more self-sufficient communities. We can focus on providing men and women with opportunities to find secure, meaningful jobs. We can ensure that the young people can access the tools they need to realize their full potential.
To be more precise, the agreement commits the Government of Canada to negotiate a comprehensive self- government agreement with the Cree of Eeyou Istchee, an agreement that will enable these proud, ambitious, resourceful people to develop a Cree constitution and establish a Cree Nation government. I am delighted that the Government of Quebec has expressed a willingness to participate with us in these negotiations.
Where does Bill C-28 enter into all this? By amending the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act, Bill C-28 gives us the power to take greater action on these fronts. Bill C-28 enables the Cree of Eeyou Istchee to build a stronger governance regime right away, to begin working with other governments as equals and to play a much greater role in the discussions and decisions that will affect their lives and determine the futures of their communities.
In effect, Mr. Chair, Bill C-28 is a sturdy stone on which the Cree of Eeyou Istchee can step as they continue their journey towards genuine, full-fledged self-government.
[Translation]
So how precisely does Bill C-28 do all this? As I mentioned earlier, Bill C-28 does so in two key ways.
[English]
First, the bill amends the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act to provide the Cree Regional Authority, the governing body of the Cree of Eeyou Istchee, with bylaw-making powers similar to those now enjoyed by the local Cree governments in the region. Equipped with these powers, the Cree Regional Authority can oversee a number of essential local functions including police, sanitation and firefighting services, and several vital economic development initiatives such as job training, recruitment and placement. The Cree Regional Authority can also regulate affairs and set clear, high standards throughout the region. In so doing, Bill C-28 provides the Cree Regional Authority with powers that truly correspond with its title.
I would like to take a minute to respond to an important issue that was raised during second reading debate concerning the standards that will apply to safe drinking water. First, Bill C-28 provides that any standards established in Cree Regional Authority bylaw concerning the regulation of water must be at least equivalent in their effect to any standards established by federal or provincial laws of general application in respect to the matter. In other words, the standards applicable to the Cree will be equal to or greater than those applicable to all other Canadians, either at the provincial or federal levels.
Second, Bill C-28 fulfils a commitment to the Cree of Oujé-Bougoumou to recognize them as the ninth Cree band under the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act with the same status, rights and obligations as the other eight Cree communities in the region.
Senators, those are the two key provisions of Bill C-28. However, of equal importance, I believe is the consultation that went into creating the bill. Before a committee of the other place, James O'Reilly, the legal council for the Oujé- Bougoumou First Nation, and Bill Namagoose, Executive Director of the Grand Council of the Crees, made a point of highlighting the level of consultation that took place during the development of this bill.
Mr. O'Reilly described this consultation as "exemplary." He pointed out that there were "very intensive consultations" at every step of the development process, and he added that key discussions were held, not only with the Cree, but also with the Naskapi and the Inuit of Nunavik. In fact, Mr. O'Reilly said the cooperative spirit shown in putting together Bill C-28 is "one of the keys to better solutions for relationships between Canada and the Aboriginal peoples of Canada."
Mr. Namagoose echoed this sentiment, and when I read the transcript of his testimony, I was struck by reading these words:
If Canada sends negotiators to the table to act as defence lawyers, of course there will be no agreement. But, if Canada sends negotiators with a mandate to solve problems, then we will have agreements such as the new relationship agreement.
Mr. Chairman, this committee's 2008 report, Honouring the Spirit of Modern Treaties: Closing the Loopholes, also highlights the important role negotiators play in resolving disputes and settling land claims. In fact, your report cites the new relationship agreement as a positive example of the progress that can be made when the government is fully engaged in the negotiation process.
In making these points, this committee touched on a profound but often forgotten fact: For generations, the defining trace of productive relationships between this country's Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples has been honest negotiation, consultation and partnership.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, I am convinced that the wisdom of the shared experience of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples in our country and of our enduring partnerships must continue to guide us, as they have done in Bill C-28.
[English]
It is in the spirit of consultation and partnership, a spirit that infuses every aspect of Bill C-28, that I welcome your comments and questions and ask that you lend your continued support to Bill C-28.
Senator Brazeau: As an Algonquin and a Quebecer, I am excited to be in a position to view this bill, talk about it and have it before this committee. In your opinion, what has made this endeavour successful in terms of the negotiation process between the Government of Canada and the Cree of Northern Quebec?
Mr. Strahl: As I pointed out, it is a real success story. In part, it is a tribute to the negotiators and the spirit in which they entered into it on both sides. Much work goes in building relationships and a level of trust between negotiators that are looking for an honourable agreement, so it is a tribute to the negotiators.
Second, the mandate that our government gave to those negotiators was also sound. It was not only to try to adhere to the letter of the law, but it talked about new relationships. Relationships are never codified only in law; relationships are more profound than simply laws. They talk about how we relate to one another.
Again, there is a level of trust and understanding that comes from a meaningful relationship. We can all look at relationships and understand that is why that document is called what it is; it is not called a legal framework to discuss James Bay northern Cree issues, it talks about relationships. That is key as well.
The consultation was extensive. We had draft legislation that we could consult on and amend to ensure it was as good as possible. Also, because of that degree of trust, there was an understanding that there is much more work to do but this is a step on the way toward complete self-government.
Whether we are talking about some of the concerns that are still out there from the Naskapi or from the Inuit, everyone understands that there has been openness and an understanding that there is more work to be done and that is for the next stage.
That is why we have already appointed negotiators on the self-government side and sent a clear message that this is only one step on the road to an ongoing good relationship. I think that set the tone that this is not the be all and end all, but the work we have done has established a very good foundation for a quick resolution of the next steps.
Senator Brazeau: I appreciate your comments on that because I truly view this legislation as setting the stage for a future and truly self-government agreement with the Crees. I also view this model as perhaps being applicable to other First Nations groups across the country to utilize in terms of negotiating such self-government agreements.
In your opinion, do you think the format that was utilized and the process that was followed would be a model for other interested First Nation groups to utilize, if interested?
Mr. Strahl: Certainly, if the model fits we should use it. However, we are always careful to make it clear that one size does not fit all. Depending on the First Nation community or the Aboriginal group in the country, we are at different levels of negotiation.
A First Nation community, for example, may come to us and say we have a 10-year or 20-year plan on how to get to complete self-government. We are not ready today; we do not want to do it today, but we have steps we want to take along the way. Some of it might have to do with capacity enhancement or having control over education or health care. Some of it might have to do with increasing control over the things that affect their lives. We are willing to look at different models across the country. In other words, if someone is ready to go to a complete self-government negotiation, let us do it. If there is a transition like this one, where we are taking it step by step, I think that is also a wise way because it allows people to build capacity and understanding of the application of local laws, and it allows parliamentarians and other Canadians to see it in action.
I think this is a wise application toward self-government. To reiterate, this is not a one-size-fits-all application, but this is a good example of what can happen when we say, what works for you? If it works for you, we want to be part of those discussions — all of it with the ambition of getting out from under Indian Act and on to self-government.
Senator Brazeau: In the last week or so, I have been receiving quite a bit of correspondence from First Nations citizens living in many of those Cree communities. They wanted me to thank you for the leadership that you and your team have put into this bill.
Mr. Strahl: The real tribute goes to a steady hand of leadership in the Cree community. They know what they want and they have been steady and steadfast in achieving it. My hat is off to them.
Senator Carstairs: I have three questions. First, in your remarks, you refer to it as a first step toward self- government. Can you indicate what other steps are required and when, realistically, this could be achieved?
Second, with regard to governance, as you know, this committee is engaged in a study on governance. Are there any provisions in this bill that you think will enhance the governance in this community?
Finally, are there any indications — and I could find none — of protection for the rights of women living in this community?
Mr. Strahl: This is a step on the continuum toward complete self-government. This extends what is commonly understood in the Cree communities as their authority on everything from sanitation to fire protection, and many other things. This extends to the regional authority what is already commonly done in the local communities. In order to make a region work, you need some common governance standards. This extends this to the Cree Regional Authority, where it was not there before.
I think it will be seamless because there is a good understanding of it in the Cree community. They already do this well and understand it well. To extend this to the Cree Regional Authority is a natural extension, a broadening of the governance under those categories I mentioned. I think it will go seamlessly, and it is an example of extending the governance in a broader area so it is not just in the communities themselves, but in the entire region.
It will enhance governance and it includes a ninth community that was not in there before, which we all knew was going to be and should be and properly now is. That will, again, enhance governance officially by putting it in this bill.
Both sides have already appointed negotiators on the self-governance package itself. They have a timeline of three years to report back. That is very doable. Again, because of the good relationship that has already been established, I think the timeline is plausible, and those negotiators are at work.
Regarding the protection of rights of women, the bill does not separate out women's issues, other than the extension of what is already in place, which respects the rights of women. There is nothing in the bill that specifically addresses the rights of women, but it is an extension of the current expectations and agreements that recognize and protect those rights.
Damon Rourke, Acting Director, Implementation Planning and Negotiations and James Bay Implementation Office, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: I would add that the Cree Regional Authority is a public corporation incorporated through Quebec legislation. To that extent, as the minister mentioned, the bill solidifies their role as a regional entity in legislation, but also something that they have been doing for a number of years. In that respect, I am not aware of any specific aspects of the Cree Regional Authority.
In my discussions with Bill Namagoose and other Cree officials, they have the structures in place to not only have duly elected officials at the Grand Council level but also the administrative arm, which is the Cree Regional Authority. I think the provisions are there to protect the interests of all people in those committees and organizations. That is what they have been doing and will continue to do.
The Chair: My understanding is that Bill C-28 does not deal with leadership selection at all. My able assistant, Mary Hurley, brought this to my attention.
Senator Sibbeston: Good morning, Mr. Minister.
It is certainly a happy day for the Cree and Naskapi people. Hearing your comments, I cannot help but feel encouraged and enthusiastic. I cannot help but think that if you lent that kind of spirit and encouragement to all aspects of negotiations and relationships with First Nations, we would have a happy Canada; there would be many happy people.
There seems to be a whole industry that has arisen as a result of implementation of land claim agreements, agreements such as this. Everyone feels good about these agreements, but when it comes to implementation, there have been problems. Now it is become being historical and there is a whole industry arising.
A few weeks ago, all the land claimants that have reached agreements in the last 20 years or 30 years came together to deal with the problem of implementation. The federal government is simply not coming through in implementing the agreements.
Can you say or do anything that would provide encouragement to those people? Your enthusiasm and honesty is so positive, and if we could lend that kind of attitude and encouragement to those people, we would be doing our country and the First Nations a lot of good.
Mr. Strahl: Thank you, senator. I know this committee has done good work on implementation issues generally. I will be responding to your report shortly and I hope to address this issue more fulsomely at that time.
Soon after I got this job, it became apparent to me — I am not picking on any party now — that Canada needed to do a better job on implementation. There is consensus on that. I know that. We are taking steps, both internally and with a whole-of-government approach, to try to do a better job.
In fairness to the government — and I am just talking about the government writ large — implementation of self- government agreements is a relatively new matter in Canada. This is, of course, the oldest one. There was very little policy and no experience that guided this agreement in the early days. Understandably, people were feeling their way, without guidance, without precedent and without any idea of where it was going to land, so there were obviously mistakes made and a lot of hand-wringing and non-action while we tried to figure it out.
That being said, what I think we have in this agreement are signs that we actually can get it right. Although it takes time, and renewals of these agreements are difficult and the finance negotiations are tough, the government is getting better at it and our officials have a better understanding of it.
As you can see in this agreement, matters such as how to mediate disputes are now codified and we can understand how we will move ahead. As we already discussed regarding self-government, or whatever different agreements we might have, people understand the need for steady progression. The issues on the table regarding renewal of financial arrangements do not surprise anyone anymore. It used to be that after six or eight years of self-government, First Nations or Aboriginal people would come to us and say: No one saw this coming, but do you realize now expensive it is to do this part? It is like a light bulb came on.
We are getting better at this and we have come to realize that many more departments are involved in successful agreements. Other departments will deal with procurement opportunities, business relationships, economic development policy, HRSDC and the training dollars that might go into capacity building. At times, it has been necessary to involve provincial and other levels of government.
What I hope for in this bill is that it shows people that we can get it right. I think, frankly, that the bill does show that we can get it right, and I know your next witnesses will be able to talk about this. The implementation is important. We need to do a better job, and we have already said that is of key importance. Increasingly, it is a whole- of-government approach as opposed to simply one minister's or one department's role. It is something we must all do.
Senator Sibbeston: I appreciate your response. I have been a minister in government, and I know that as a minister, sometimes you need to get involved in the department. I encourage you to do that, because you have a whole civil service; you have 4,000 or 5,000 people across the river who work for Indian Affairs and Northern Development, and they are all doing their job. Sometimes you can have a big influence on them just by telling them that you want things done.
It seems to me that at your level, oftentimes, between rational people, there is no difficulty, but sometimes it becomes difficult with department officials. I encourage you to walk through the department, spend a day there, and tell everyone that you want them to do a good job and get things done. Can you bring that spirit and enthusiasm to your department so that things can get done? There is a feeling that there is just a hiatus and nothing gets done and there is a big bureaucracy. They need motivation, encouragement, and initiative from you.
Mr. Strahl: I appreciate the comments. I think we are attempting to do that. In a sense, it is almost ironic. Some would argue this is one of the more complex bureaucracies and ministries, and yet, thanks to the work of the standing committee in the House of Commons and this committee, we have actually been able to plough through more legislation with more evidence of cooperation than many other committees that you would think would have pushed ahead. I am not picking on other committees, but I do think we have actually established the fact that this is not really a partisan issue. We all want to try to get good things done, and it is a tribute in both chambers that people have put partisanship aside and asked what they can do for the common good. I agree that spirit has to be pervasive.
Senator Lang: I want to look at the financial aspect of the bill. Canadians are making a significant contribution here of $1.4 billion. Does this in part replace some of the financial commitments that the Department of Indian Affairs presently exercises, or is this over and above the ongoing annual commitment by the department as far as the various programs the Department of Indian Affairs provides?
Mr. Strahl: The settlement allows the self-governing or the increasingly self-governing First Nations to retain more and more control over the things that are important to their quality of life. I mentioned some of them that would typically in other areas be managed by my department more directly. This allows the Cree either regional authority or local governments to look after that and deliver better services for a better price to more people. I think it is landing in a good spot.
This bill, once it is passed and receives Royal Assent, will allow for the transfer of $100 million to complete the portion that will allow the regional authority to do its work and extend many of those self-governing provisions that are not currently available to them. It will allow for more local autonomy and delivery of services in the areas charted out.
There is more work to do, and on the governance side, we are working hand in hand with our negotiators toward that, but this allows the independence of the Cree, both the regional authority and the Cree local governments to do their work. I am always delighted when that work gets done and I get a report about it rather than having to deal with directly.
Senator Lang: I am sure you do, Minister Strahl. I want to go back into the financial commitment that Canadians are making to make this work. I am not quite clear in my mind whether the $1.4 billion is over and above our normal financial agreements or if it replaces a number of our financial agreements that we presently have in place with the First Nations in that area.
Mr. Strahl: When it comes to the estimates, you will see that the money for last year and this year is over and above our regular spending, if you will. This is a settlement that has been negotiated and respects the different roles of the government, and of course there is a significant cash component with that. It does replace what we would normally do day-to-day, but I want to give assurances to other First Nations that this does not come out of their pocket. We do not rob Peter to pay Paul. This extraordinary expenditure settles a long-standing negotiation, puts longstanding litigation aide, and allows the Cree authority to exercise what would previously have been done under the Indian Act or under my department.
It does replace it, but it does not take away from other spending on First Nation and Aboriginal issues. It is an extraordinary expenditure that was added to rather than taken from someone else.
Senator Lang: I have a further question on the $1 billion to be transferred. Is that to be transferred after the governance act is in place?
Mr. Strahl: That has already been done. This bill will allow us to transfer the final $100 million that is part and parcel of the Cree Regional Authority responsibilities, but the other monies have already gone through the estimates process and it has all been done. This is kind of the icing on the cake.
Senator Dyck: Good morning. This bill gives more power to the regional band councils. In this bill, is there a provision with regard to defining who is and who is not a band member in terms of elections for band council? I ask this is with regard to the recent McIvor case in B.C, which will likely bring changes coming forward in the Indian Act. Do the regional bands have authority now to determine who can and cannot vote?
Mr. Strahl: The McIvor decision is significant, as you have detailed, and we have already announced that our government is not intending to appeal the decision. I believe Ms. McIvor herself has appealed it now, although we do not know what the Supreme Court will do with that leave to appeal. We will have to wait for them to deal with it.
The issue of status and inequities that the court addressed between the descendents of Aboriginal women and non- Aboriginal partnerships and so on will have to be dealt with, and will be proceeding with that. This bill does not change anything to do with the membership in the Cree communities. It is silent on that.
Marianne Kroes, Counsel, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: The purpose of this bill is to give by-law making power to the Cree Regional Authority, as well as deal with the Oujé-Bougoumou band. It does not affect band membership.
Senator Dyck: It sounds like it gives more power to the band councils with respect to housing, but is it silent with regard to how the band would determine who gets a house in cases of marital breakdown? Certainly that is an issue within many communities. During marriage breakdown, there is a conflict, and provincial laws do not apply to what happens on a reserve. Will this in any way resolve any of those situations?
Ms. Kroes: No, it does not address those concerns and does not deal with the band councils per se but rather with the Cree Regional Authority which will oversee all nine bands.
Mr. Strahl: The issue of matrimonial property rights is something we are wrestling with. We have legislation before the house, and in that legislation we have made it clear that we hope First Nations will develop their own matrimonial property codes.
Without any interference from me, it allows First Nations to apply matrimonial property rights on their turf, and that is where we need to end up. I am concerned that there are, in many places in Canada, no laws that apply to matrimonial property in the event of marriage breakdown, and it is a gap that we need to address.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Senators, for clarification, in future negotiations leading to the governance agreement, issues like the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and intergovernmental dispute resolution mechanisms will all be dealt with prior to the signing of a governance agreement.
Mr. Minister, I thank you and your officials for presenting here this morning and answering the questions of our colleagues. We understand that you are pressed for time, but this is very important. I thank senators for their cooperation.
Honourable senators, before we begin with our new panel of witnesses, Senator Carstairs has a brief intervention.
Senator Carstairs: I am hopeful that the steering committee will agree that next week we can hear from individuals at Health Canada with respect to the H1N1 outbreak in St. Theresa Point. Twenty-one people have now been evacuated. Many of them are in intensive care and using most of the intensive care beds in Winnipeg, as I understand it. This will become a national problem. If we could have some updates, I would really appreciate it.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Carstairs.
We now have before us the main stakeholders in Bill C-28. First representing the Grand Council of the Crees, Grand Chief Matthew Mukash; Bill Namagoose, Executive Director; Pierre Pilote, Legal Counsel; Denis Blanchette, Legal Counsel; and Brian Craik, Director of Federal Relations. Representing Oujé-Bougoumou is Paul Wertman, Advisor.
Matthew Mukash, Grand Chief, Grand Council of the Crees: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the members for this opportunity to speak in favour of Bill C-28. We are delighted that Bill C-28 received all-party support in the House of Commons on May 7 of this year and that it has also been favourably received by the members of the Senate.
The amendments contained in this proposed legislation comply with those that were agreed would be recommended in the 2008 Canada-Cree New Relationship Agreement. The amendments will also put the Cree community of Oujé- Bougoumou on the same footing as other Cree communities with respect to local governance, as was agreed to with both Quebec and Canada. The amendments will bring about an evolution of Cree governance structure from those originally recognized and agreed to in the 1975 James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.
I will not repeat the whole of our submission to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development but I will present a brief summary of what was said there.
The community of Oujé-Bougoumou was dispersed by mining development prior to the 1970s. This fact was not resolved in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. However, at that time, we did receive commitment from Quebec for its reconstitution.
The discussions, which were eventually agreed to, brought about the Oujé-Bougoumou and Quebec agreement of 1989 and the Oujé-Bougoumou/Canada Agreement of 1992. Both agreements dealt with the construction of the community of Oujé-Bougoumou and provided for the integration of the Crees of Oujé-Bougoumou into the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.
The Oujé-Bougoumou agreement with Canada called for amendments to the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act respecting them. However, several issues remained outstanding and, in 1993, the Crees of Oujé-Bougoumou instituted distinct legal actions against both Quebec and Canada respecting their Aboriginal rights and land claims for damages from the forced relocations. These claims with respect to Quebec were resolved in the La Paix des Braves agreement signed in 2002. An out-of-court settlement was reached with Canada in 2008 pursuant to the Canada-Cree New Relationship Agreement.
Bill C-28 resolves Canada's commitment for inclusion of Oujé-Bougoumou in the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act. The James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement called for the Cree Regional Authority to be set up under provincial legislation. It oversees certain Cree responsibilities in respect to Cree involvement in regional governance and in regard to matters delegated to it by the Cree communities.
Section 9 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement also provided for the incorporation of the Cree communities in federal legislation, distinct from the Indian Act. The resulting Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act, passed in 1984, was the first local self-government legislation for Aboriginal peoples in Canada. After adoption of the act and to the present day, the Grand Council of the Crees and the Cree Regional Authority have acted as the forum for the concerted implementation of the act by the Crees.
While the act opened the door for the assumption by the Cree communities of certain responsibilities concerning their development, there were still many aspects of James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement that had not been implemented by Quebec and Canada.
It was the announcement by Quebec in 1989 of its intent to build further hydroelectric projects in the territory that sparked the Crees, in 1999, to go to court against Canada and Quebec seeking to stop the proposed development and seeking full implementation of the James Bay agreement. Without going into the details of the Cree fight, suffice it to say that in 2002, the Quebec-Cree New Relationship Agreement settled certain legal disputes between the Crees and Quebec.
Under the agreement, the Cree assumed responsibility for certain of Quebec's obligations under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement of 1975, and Quebec committed to provide funding related to this for a period of 50 years. This largely resolved the lack of congruity between Quebec's programs and the priorities of the Crees, which had largely been the cost of legal disputes.
When Canada and the Crees entered into out-of-court discussions from 2005 to 2008, this model of devolving to the Crees certain of the obligations of Canada that were in dispute was found to be adaptable to many of the issues between the parties. However, Canada went further in accepting the Cree view that it was time once again for another step in the evolution of Cree governance structures and responsibilities.
In the 2008 agreement, Canada accepted that the Cree Nation needed structures of government at a regional level to better serve the needs of the Crees. Canada also committed to negotiate with us an agreement that would call for federal legislation for a Cree Nation government, with powers and authorities beyond the scope of the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act. Because we signed the agreement in 2008, it calls for interim measures to be instituted through amendments to the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act to recognize the Cree Regional Authority with powers required to assume immediately certain obligations of Canada to the Crees.
In brief, the phase 1 amendments call for the recognition in law of the following powers of the CRA: First, to pass bylaws that have force in the Cree communities, and to provide for their public availability; and second, to provide for the passage of standards that exceed federal and provincial standards. These bylaws would include essential sanitation services, housing, buildings used for regional governance and fire departments under the protection of the environment, including natural resources; third, to manage funding and assets; fourth, to promote the welfare of the Crees and the Cree bands; fifth, to preserve Cree culture, values and traditions; sixth, to assume certain federal responsibilities as may be agreed to; and seventh, to empower the Innu police force on Category 1 lands.
The amendment calls for Canada to consult the Crees on the amendments, which it has done. The requirements of the agreement are met by the proposed amendments once they are passed into law.
We commend the representatives of the Department of Justice for the courteous and insightful manner in which they carried out their consultations with us. Moreover, both Canada and the Crees have consulted the Inuit through their representative organization, Makivik Corporation. Also, both parties have consulted the Naskapi bands. From both the Inuit and the Naskapi bands, we received assurances that they accept and do not object to the amendments, and that their rights are rendered safe and untouched by them.
The Cree and the Naskapi have called for technical amendments to be made to the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act. Such amendments were identified soon after the act was passed in 1984. The federal Cree-Naskapi commission has called over the years for these amendments to be made. We have discussed these with the commission and the Naskapi and we have agreed that a list of proposed amendments will be reviewed for inclusion in the next round of amendments to the act to be made within three to five years, when more comprehensive legislation is proposed to Parliament on Cree governance.
Chapter 3 of the 2008 Canada-Cree New Relationship Agreement calls for the amendment contained in Bill C-28 to be made. Then, a phase 2 process of negotiations will commence that will lead to the more comprehensive legislation on Cree governance, which would be proposed to Parliament in three to five years.
The 2008 agreement states:
Such negotiations, if successful, would expand Cree Nation governance beyond the Cree-Naskapi (Quebec) Act powers by establishing the structures and powers of the Cree Nation Government and the relations of such government with Cree bands and federal and provincial governments.
The amendments before you today in Bill C-28 accomplish Part I of this program. The discussions on Part II are just beginning, with the involvement of Canada, Quebec and the Crees.
The Chair: Colleagues, for 16 years, I have been on this committee and the Cree-Naskapi have been in my office many times on the question of implementation. It is encouraging to see them here today taking the first step. It is good that they recognize the contributions of the Department of Justice. This is one of the few times that we have heard praise for the department, which is really encouraging, because it has often been considered one of the stumbling blocks.
Senator Brazeau: I will ask you the same question I asked the minister earlier. From your vantage point, what do you believe led to the success of the negotiation process in the model that was utilized by the Government of Canada and yourselves?
Mr. Mukash: I do not want to repeat what the minister said earlier, but I think it was the will of the negotiators to work together and to follow the principles that we have always followed, which is to always try and work with the governments, Canada and Quebec, as best we can.
The Cree Nation has come a long way. There have been many stumbling blocks to creating this kind of relationship. We have gone to court and have been in court for the longest time. However, at some point, there was a decision made by the Cree Nation that it is now time to establish a good working relationship with both Canada and Quebec. It was a vision of our elders that it should happen and that is what we follow.
I want to thank the federal negotiators who did a good job listening to the people. I know that the former negotiators went into the communities to consult with the people. They went into their houses and attended events. If you mean business, that is the way to deal with our people, face to face.
Of course, there is the work of our negotiator Bill Namagoose. He has been in this game for many decades and knows what it is all about. I commend him for the work he has done.
Senator Brazeau: I mentioned earlier that I saw this as a real stepping-stone towards a true self-government agreement in the future. More important, do you view that as a bridge to self-government in the future?
Mr. Mukash: Certainly. As the minister said, every Aboriginal community in Canada is different. The Cree Nation is a good example of an Aboriginal group that has come a long way. We have had much time to think about where we want to go as a nation and where our place is within the larger society. We have determined that we must work with the larger society to establish a good relationship.
It is important for each First Nation to determine their situation, to understand their history and also to look to the future. We want an agreement that we can all live with. We have a very good relationship with the business community of our region. We have a good relationship with everyone.
With regard to government, no relationship is as rosy as it looks at the beginning, but we all understand that. We try to work as best we can to ensure that the terms of the treaty are respected. This model will certainly bring hope for other Aboriginal First Nations in Canada to follow.
Senator Brazeau: The Cree Regional Authority is a well-respected and well-established entity that represents the interests of the nine Cree communities. When we have such amendments to a bill that will change the landscape of some of these communities, obviously there must be buy-in and support from those nine communities.
Could you talk about how those nine communities ratified and supported the amendments to the act before us?
Mr. Mukash: We had to take into account that we have been calling for the implementation of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement for well over three decades. We understood that many of our youth did not understand the agreement. They asked many questions at the beginning. We had to explain the JBNQA, the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement and we had to educate our people as to where this agreement came from.
When we arrived at the consultation stage, we invited people who were involved from the beginning to explain what the agreement stems from and the work we have done over the years.
As we always say, the agreement came about because of the vision of our elders, and the leaders who came after have carried that vision through. People understood that and saw that there was an opportunity to establish a good relationship, not only with Canada but also with Quebec. Let us not forget that we needed the support of Quebec to get this legislation through, and we are thankful to Premier Charest for fully supporting this agreement.
It took a lot of thinking and we had to develop a good strategy so that our people fully understood the implications of the agreement and that it has to do with treaty implementation. When people understood that, there was no trouble in getting the support from the population. Ninety per cent of voters came forward in the referendum to call for the acceptance of the agreement.
The Chair: Now we will hear from Senator Watt, one of the original signatories to this James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.
Senator Watt: This agreement has been a long time coming. I know the Crees have been trying to implement the James Bay agreement, unsuccessfully, for many years, especially the matters under federal jurisdiction, and I believe that matters under provincial jurisdiction have the same kind of reading.
You mentioned that 18 complementary agreements have been executed to date and that you have three new agreements that will change the policy establishing Category 1A land and the Oujé-Bougoumou Cree Nation becoming a part of the overall picture, which was left out during the negotiations due to technical difficulties, as the government normally terms it.
At the second stage of your negotiations with the Government of Canada regarding matters under federal jurisdiction, will women's issues be dealt with, issues such as membership and matrimonial property? I am not saying you have problems in that area, but I know that across the country, women's issues have been highlighted a number of times by various groups. You have always been able to find solutions. The people in the North never really have those kinds of difficulties with their women. Could you provide highlights on that issue?
Bill Namagoose, Executive Director, Grand Council of the Crees: Thank you for the question. Yes, we do anticipate that women's issues will be dealt with in the next part of our discussions. Of course, the agreement and the legislation will be brought to the Parliament of Canada for review after it has been ratified by the Cree and the negotiators, so there will be an opportunity then to discuss that issue.
We are not under the Indian Act anymore. We walked away from the Indian Act in 1984, and that resolved many of our internal issues. We do not have status Indians or non-status Indians in our communities. We have what we call Cree citizens or Cree beneficiaries. We have people, who have band numbers and are status Indians, and we still maintain the Indian Act list, and we have people who are non-status, but there is no distinction in the Cree communities in terms of delivery of services or participation in leadership and in the community. When we undergo the second stage of negotiations, we would like to resolve and modernize those gender issues, the same as everyone else.
Senator Watt: My second question has to do with access to clean water. Will that also be part of the second stage? I know that this will most likely remain under federal jurisdiction even if you assume administrative responsibilities. I do not think the Government of Canada is off the hook on the question of the need to set overall policy in regard to access to clean drinking water. Is my understanding correct on this?
Mr. Namagoose: In terms of clean water, the Cree have installed water and sewer systems since 1984. We have been managing them using provincial jurisdiction and legislation ever since. There is constant monitoring. We now have about 37 people certified to manage different parts of the water system in the Cree communities. They were trained by the Government of Quebec. We have a base of people who manage that, and it has been very well run. We have not had any contamination issues with respect to water for many years. We ran the Quebec standards and implemented them in terms of water and sanitation facilities in the Cree communities. We have exceeded those standards.
The bill before you will give us the statutory authority to exceed the provincial and federal standards, and we will certainly develop and implement drinking water standards with the new authority we will get in this new legislation. We will pursue that, but we need the bill and the statutory authority to do so. At the local level, we have been enforcing provincial standards. There are no contamination issues, and we hope to implement and build upon what we have done with the Province of Quebec with this new legislation at the regional level.
Senator Lang: I have never been in your part of the world. I think it would be very interesting to go and have a look and see for myself.
I asked a question earlier of the minister on the financial transfer part of the agreement. I think it totals $1.4 billion. Is that prorated among the communities, or does that go to a development corporation, or will that be administered by your regional government once it is in place?
Mr. Namagoose: The total financial package is $1.4 billion, and $1 billion was paid upfront when we signed the agreement. Another $100 million will be transferred when this legislation receives Royal Assent, and another $200 million will be transferred to the Cree when we have Cree Nation government agreement and legislation passed, so that is three or four years from now.
The purpose of that $1.4 billion is to assume and pay for the federal government's obligations, such as water and sanitation facilities. There is an obligation from Canada and Quebec to install water and sanitation facilities in the communities, and we will take over that obligation. We have been installing those water and sanitation facilities in Cree communities.
We will take over the obligation of Canada and Quebec to build community centres in the Cree communities, and we have been building those communities centres now with these resources. We signed the agreement in 1975, and there was an obligation to build community centres in the Cree communities. In a period of 30 years, the federal government provided $3 million to build one community centre. That was part of the court case, and that is all settled now and is part of the package. We will build those community centres on behalf of Canada and Quebec, I suppose.
With respect to how the money is managed, under the agreement, a Cree Nation Trust has been established to oversee, manage and invest the monies. The Cree Regional Authority will be the only entity as a Cree Nation government that will approach the Cree Nation Trust, asking for funding for certain projects and programs. No other Cree citizen is allowed, only the Cree Regional Authority. The Cree Nation Trust must ensure that the budget or the expenditures or the use of those funds is only tailored and geared to federal obligations. It can only spend money as called for in the agreement. Anything that is not a federal obligation is not eligible for funding from the Cree Nation Trust. That will be the process. The Cree Regional Authority as a Cree Nation government will develop a budget for every year, develop the programs, and then must send financial request to the Cree Nation Trust for approval of funding. It is like our Treasury Board, if you will.
The chairman of the Cree Nation Trust is former Grand Chief and National Chief Matthew Coon Come. The other members are Ted Moses, former Grand Chief; former Grand Chief Billy Diamond; former Executive Chief Robert Kanatwat; former Treasurer of the Cree Regional Authority, Albert Diamond; former Executive Chief of the Cree nation, Philip Awashish; and former Grand Chief of the Crees, Violet Pachanos. They are the Cree Nation Trust members. There is a Cree Nation government and a Treasury Board type of arrangement called the Cree Nation Trust.
Senator Lang: Will that change once a regional government is in place and your governance act is passed, or will that trust stay in place and that is where the money will be administered from?
Mr. Namagoose: The trust will stay regardless of what happens to the Cree Regional Authority. The trust will stay because it is the holder and keeper of the Cree Nation Trust.
The Cree Nation Trust has a 20-year mandate. It will receive the $1.4 billion, and it will ensure that the monies are spent towards these federal obligations. In year 20, the balance in the account must be zero. This is not a heritage fund; this is a depleting fund that will cover the obligations of the federal government under the James Bay Northern Quebec agreement. In year 18, we will recommence negotiations to renew the new relationship agreement.
Senator Lang: I am not clear on one thing with the transfer of the money that is involved. I did not quite understand the minister's response either, and perhaps the witness can shed some light on this subject.
I am not quite clear on the Department of Indian Affairs' responsibility with the transfer of this money to the fund and you assuming these responsibilities. I am assuming that the federal government no longer exercises those responsibilities and subsequently is withdrawing and saying this is your responsibility, and they are paying through that fund to have that administered. Is that correct?
Mr. Namagoose: Yes, the obligations that we assumed are Canada's treaty obligations to the Cree. We have taken those obligations for a period of 20 years. When that relationship agreement expires in 20 years, the treaty obligations to provide sanitation facilities, community centres and other issues in the James Bay agreement return back to Canada. They return as Canada's treaty obligations to the Cree. We are taking over those treaty obligations for a period of 20 years, but they are Canada's treaty obligations and are perpetual treaty obligations to the Cree.
The Chair: Senators, it is encouraging to see the patience the Cree have extended to us as Canadians, the country as a whole, through negotiations rather than litigation. This extends beyond partisanship, because Prime Minister Chrétien did a lot of work in arriving at this agreement. The 2008 agreement was arrived at under the present administration, but we should give credit to everyone involved. I think the most encouraging aspect is when I hear that the Department of Justice has cooperated to the extent it has and has become so much easier to work with, and possibly the study on implementation that we are carried out helped move this spirit of cooperation along.
Thank goodness, you are taking control of our own destiny. The agreement is for 20 years, and hopefully it goes on for 2,000 years or 2 million years.
Mr. Namagoose: We have received some questions with respect to the status of the Cree Regional Authority that will receive these powers. We would like to table with the committee the Quebec legislation that set up the Cree Regional Authority and the powers it has.
The Cree Regional Authority is not an empty box. It has been in existence since 1978 and has been in operation with the other Cree governing authority. Therefore, we would like to table that legislation.
The Chair: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is filed as an exhibit. I thank you again, Mr. Namagoose.
Grand Chief, thank you and your delegation. I believe you have answered the questions. There were questions on water and women's rights. Again, good luck and God bless you as you proceed onwards. May the Creator protect you. Thank you again.
Colleagues, we could discuss the following in camera or do you want to stay in public?
Senator Carstairs: I do not see any reason for us to go in camera. I think everyone is prepared to go to clause-by- clause consideration.
The Chair: Honourable senators, rule 96 (7.1) provides that:
Except with leave of its member present, a committee cannot dispense with clause-by-clause consideration of a bill.
I will ask if there would therefore be leave to dispense with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act.
Is it agreed?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is agreed.
Is it agreed that this bill be adopted without amendment?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Unanimous agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Carstairs: Can I move a motion that it be reported to the house this afternoon?
The Chair: I am getting to that. Thank you very much, senator.
Is it agreed that this bill be reported without amendment and without observations to the Senate at the earliest opportunity?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues.
[Translation]
Thank you for you generous cooperation. I also wish to thank Senator Dawson for his presence here today.
(The committee adjourned.)